The Volokh Conspiracy
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Public Opinion and Due Process
Do we agree with Blackstone that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than one innocent suffer?
Sir William Blackstone famously said that it is "better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer." The maxim expressed by that English jurist was perhaps no more popular in 1765 than it is today.
In a jibe clearly directed at Blackstone and others of a similar mind, English jurist and philosopher Jeremy Bentham made light of writers call it better to save "several guilty men, than to condemn a single innocent man," and others who, "to make the maxim more striking, fixed on the number ten." Others "made this ten a hundred," and still others "made it a thousand." Such "candidates for the prize of humanity" go so far as to say that "nobody ought to be punished, lest an innocent man be punished."
If you were sitting as a juror in a criminal trial in the United States, a judge would instruct you, not on Blackstone's maxim, but on a due process-informed standard that embodies the same view: that the "defendant is presumed innocent of the charges" and that this presumption "is not overcome unless you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty as charged." That standard of proof reflects Blackstone's view of due process. In 1970, Justice John Marshall Harlan II in the Court's In re Winship ruling that set such a high standard of proof in U.S. criminal trials, explained: "I view the requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal case as bottomed on a fundamental value determination of our society that it is far worse to convict an innocent man than to let a guilty man go free."
Do people agree with Blackstone's maxim? In a series of studies, Gregory Mitchell and I have sought to explore whether people are more on the side of Blackstone or Bentham, due process or crime control, concerning themselves more with the punished innocent or the unpunished guilty. We describe that body of research in a law review article. We posed, among others, the following simple question:
Which of the following errors at trial do you believe causes more harm to society?
- erroneously convicting an innocent person
- failing to convict a guilty person
Or, do you believe these errors to be equally bad?
In studies of over 12,000 people, and counting since the work is ongoing, we have found something both troubling and important: most people care about due process, but they are not only concerned with avoiding wrongful convictions. They also care about the outcome for public safety. Most people answered "equally bad," and were equally concerned with not setting guilty people free. So, most people do not fully embrace the bedrock assumption of our legal system that it is vital for the government to prioritize due process over public safety. The errors that they seek to avoid, or their error aversions, were equally balanced.
This is not just an abstract preference that people share, either. These error aversions translated into how people voted to convict defendants in mock trial experiments. These error aversions also corresponded with how they weighed the evidence in those experiments. In one of our recent studies, the conviction rate among people who prioritize avoiding false acquittals was 58 percent, compared to a conviction rate of 25 percent among those who prioritize avoiding false convictions, even though the two groups reviewed the same evidence.
And there is common ground, for better or for worse, around these error aversions and due process values. With so many Americans sharing the same view, there were not large differences across partisan or demographic lines. Large majorities across all groups shared the same views. In times in which politics may be polarized, these findings suggest a shared perspective. And these findings present those of us who are committed to traditional due process values with a challenge: most people do not agree with Blackstone.
These findings also help to explain persistent divides. People do not agree on how to approach questions of criminal justice and crime control. And that is not just because they disagree on what is most effective public policy. They also share divided error aversions. This may explain divided approaches on questions like bail and sentencing reform. Our findings suggest that the framing matters. Framing a solution as only helping public safety, but as not treating the accused fairly, will trouble most people. Framing a solution as only helping to safeguard due process, but not ensuring outcomes that protect community safety, will also trouble most people.
Fortunately, there is deep common ground, where people care about both due process and public safety. I agree in my book that due process questions are not normally zero sum. A fair trial can prevent errors that are costly to both public safety and due process. If an innocent person is convicted, the guilty person is also free: in that situation, both bad outcomes happen at once, which is why Blackstone's ratio is important.
And we need constant reminders that due process serves us all, and not just fairness goals. Conversely, the more people lose faith and denigrate fairness as mere window dressing, the more they will distrust the system. In an authoritarian society without the rule of law, no one trusts the process—everyone correctly assumes it is rigged—and it seems naive to bother with procedural niceties. In some online settings, we see the same thing: when digital platforms perform poorly, people see the system as broken, and they flee the space. It is not so easy when it is the government. No-one benefits if we all suffer from a due process death spiral. That is why we all need to reconsider potentially false dichotomies between due process and outcomes.
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Which of the following errors at trial do you believe causes more harm to society?
erroneously convicting an innocent person
failing to convict a guilty person
This seems clearcut.
A false conviction, punishes the innocent, and lets the guilty go free.
A false acquittal also lets the guilty go free, true, but does not punish the innocent.
Looks like a no-brainer.
But you understand that prosecutors and cops routinely rationalize the false convictions by saying to themselves, "Well, he was probably guilty of something." Like that 'judge' in upstate New York who was discussed here a week ago, they don't really believe that arrested people are innocent.
But you understand that SOME (and probably a minority of) prosecutors and cops routinely rationalize the false convictions . . . .
FTFY
And if the criminal justice system is structured such that the probability of acquitting the guilty is ten times the probability of convicting the innocent, then the prosecutors' and cops' rationalization is rational.
There would be cases in which there is no guilty person going free: a person convicted of murdering someone who was not actually murdered; conviction of two people for a murder for which one was solely guilty.
Outliers are outliers.
Do you think these rare possibilities change the practical significance of my argument? I don't.
There is no conservation of convictions, that the conviction of an innocent person means letting a guilty one go free. At the very most you're changing the percentage of guilty people convicted very, very slightly. The consequences of a wrongful conviction are significantly worse than the consequences of a wrongful acquittal, but not in that the former necessarily means the latter must occur.
You can’t possibly conclude what you conclude in your last sentence.
The cost of wrongful conviction is that an innocent man is fined, or jailed or in extremism, executed. And his reputation trashed in the eyes of his fellows.
The cost of acquitting the guilty is the suffering resulting from all the crimes he commits until he is next convicted.
If it’s three years in jail for an innocent man v. a couple of rapes, which is worse is in the eye of the beholder.
No, you missed the point The cost of wrongful conviction is "that an innocent man is fined, or jailed or in extremism, executed. And his reputation trashed in the eyes of his fellows," and the "suffering resulting from all the crimes [the actually guilty person] commits until he is next convicted."
As noted below, bernard's algorithm is faulty.
I agree. I would add that most "bad" people do multiple "bad" things and a false acquittal in one trial does not change their odds in the next trial. The bad person is highly likely to eventually get their just desserts. A false conviction, however, immediately and permanently ruins the life and reputation of an innocent.
By both chains of reasoning, the consequences of a false conviction are worse than the consequences of a false acquittal.
A false conviction, punishes the innocent, and lets the guilty go free.
What if no crime was actually committed?
A false acquittal also lets the guilty go free, true, but does not punish the innocent.
It harms the innocent (a wrong is not repaid) and if let go the guilty party can harm again.
bernard's algorithm is faulty. Let the cost of convicting the innocent man be A, and the cost of continuing crimes by the unconvicted guilty man be B. We now have four possibilities when we have an accused in court :
1. he's guilty and we convict : Total cost = zero
2. he's guilty and we acquit : Total cost = B
3. he's innocent and we acquit : Total cost = B
4. he's innocent and we convict : Total cost = A+B
(Note the key element missing from bernard's algorithm is the cost of continuing crime by the guilty, when we correctly acquit the innocent.)
Thus the cost of :
(a) acquitting .... is always equal to B
(b) convicting ...... is either zero or (A+B)
So whether biasing the system in favor of acquitting or convicting is a good plan, depends on the values of A and B. You can't dodge that by forgetting that acquitting always carries a cost of B.
Obviously you can improve the expected value of the outcome by increasing the probability of arriving at the correct verdict - eg by improvements in forensic techniques etc - but simply adjusting the bias in favor of the accused or against him will only improve the expected value if you start with certain values of A and B.
Yup. As Bernard noticed, the framing of the problem resembles the Linda problem, but that doesn't bear it out.
Yes. Without going into As and Bs one could simply say that bernard's frame includes only two of the four possibilities that might arise when a defendant comes before the court. bernard focusses on the two possibiities of the court getting the answer wrong. But there are two other possibilities, where the court gets the answer right and these produce another frame which makes us think differently, ie :
A correct conviction, avoids punishing the innocent, punishes the guilty, and prevents the guilty man from inflicting further harm on the public.
A correct acquittal avoids punishing the innocent, but allows the guilty man to free, to go on inflicting harm on the public
This frame makes it look like it's worth erring on the side of conviction as that looks like a benefit with no cost, while acquittal is a benefit with a cost.
But this, like bernard's, is a false frame because it's only considering two of the four possibilities. We need to consider all four.
The Linda problem and the response to it is an excellent demonstration of Spock's contention that humans are not logical.
Even highly intelligent ones. In reality logical thinking is a learned skill that definitely does not come naturally to us. It is obviously easier for intelligent people to learn but natural it ain't.
Instead evolution has provided us with pattern recognition systems which function in particular evolutionarily relevant circumstances. Thus for example humans are evolved to detect cheating, because being cheated imposes a serious fitness cost.
So you can present logic problems to humans, framing them with decorative fact patterns. The same logic problem decorated with a "cheater detection" fact pattern will be solved far more often and more quickly by the human guinea pigs than exactly the same logical problem decorated in a way that does not activate the cheater detection module.
What happens if A, the cost of convicting an innocent person, is negative?
Let's suppose that we're taking about murder and capital punishment, so we can reckon things in terms of human lives. Let's suppose, further, that hanging a murderer has a strong deterrent effect on other potential murderers: for every murderer whom we publicly hang, two murders by other people are deterred.
In such a situation, wouldn't it confer a net benefit on society if the police and judicial system, unable to find the actual perpetrator of a murder, framed and hanged an innocent person? Basically, we'd be buying the life of two innocent murder victims with the one innocent life that we end on the gallows.
Sure, all sorts of interesting possibilities arise from different values of A and B. And of course A and B will vary according to the offense.
But I’m leaving it as A and B for today because I’m making a logical point not a numerical one.
But in neither case is it a monolithic all-or-nothing. Is not plea bargaining (which many honest lawyers hate) this very thing stood on its head. If you will plead guilty you will avoid an avalanche of legal frustration.
There's more to it than just a theoretical 10 to 1 ratio to express value judgement on the horror of wrongful conviction.
Beyond a reasonable doubt comes from a world of kings and dictators and motivated corruption to deliberately hassle people who got on the powerful's bad side, actual guilt be damned.
Remember there's a whole framework to prevent fishing expeditions (looking for actual criminality, keep in mind), torture, seizure of property without due process or reimbursement, compelling testimony against oneself, all of which are related to abuses by kings against others who get uppity. Songs and dances with weaker conviction standards is another ripe area.
I liken "better 10 guilty go free" to value-justify reasonable doubt to justifying freedom of speech with "the marketplace of ideas".
Yeah, those are good reasons, but the real reason is flat-out denying nascent dictators tyrant tools. The king abuses it, ergo put protections in the Constitution. Rationalize later if you must.
As a retired federal agent who surveilled people and arrested them and handcuffed them and searched their person/house/vehicle and interrogated them (with Miranda), and testified in court against them let me say that people's rights are extremely precious and we as a nation must ensure we protect personal rights dearly.
And I'm completely onboard with letting a guilty person go before having an innocent person suffer.
May be a good idea to forward this to the ICC. They might be interested in learning what this “due process” thing is.
Aside from the moral arguments, the practical one is to err on the side of failing to convict a guilty person over erroneously convicting an innocent one.
A truly innocent person isn't a threat. If they are acquitted, that's really just a return to normal, peaceable form, and the end of the matter.
A guilty person, however, is a threat. If they are acquitted, they are given another chance to roam free. Chances are they'll run afoul again. This won't be our last chance to bring justice.
This assumes that the object of the exercise is eventually to bring the guilty to justice. As opposed to protecting the public from the sufferings imposed by crime.
Convicting the innocent risks no additional crime spree. Acquitting the guilty does just that.
As the possibly apocryphal Chinese lawyer said when told about the Western maxim that it’s better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to be convicted :
“Better for who ?”
Whoops - confusingly worded :
"Convicting the innocent risks no additional crime spree. Acquitting the guilty does just that."
is intended to mean :
"Convicting the innocent, as against acquitting him, risks no additional crime spree. Acquitting the guilty, as against convicting him, does just that."
Perhaps we could lock up every single person on phony charges. There would be a lot less crime with not much downside.
The downside, obviously, is the conviction of the innocent.
The point is that there is a downside both in convicting the innocent and in more crime. The justice system has to achieve a sensible balance of these downsides, or if you prefer a minimisation of the aggregate downside. But to calculate a minimum you have to have a way of trading off the two downsides against each other, requiring a value judgement.
Hence the 10 to 1 try. But why 10 to 1 ? Why not 100 to 1, or 1 to 1 ?
Real life requires more work than just a slogan.
Okay,but then we get to the Broken Windows angle. If you are not rock hard on early offenders you are creating later offenders.
By the time you are murdering for your next fix, it is too late to wish you were fined heavily for that 'minor' first drug offense.
Alexander Volokh's "n Guilty Men" article is worth a read:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=11412
I believe that both are important and we should strive for a balance -- acquit the innocent and convict the guilty. Errors will inevitably happen because it's a human system, but we should try to minimize them *both* ways instead of only one.
What are the crimes?
Innocent shoplifter versus guilty murderer. I'd rather punish the killer, thank you. Vice versa, I'd rather acquit the guilty shoplifter.
Project Innocence has worked to release at least 250 people who were incorrectly found guilty of murder.
You good with that?
https://innocenceproject.org/all-cases/#:~:text=We%20represent%20a%20number%20of%20people%20on%20death,work%20to%20strengthen%20and%20advance%20the%20innocence%20movement.
What did the 2500 guilty we falsely freed do?
Which 2500?
You have to make up data which shows the weakness in your argument.
Blackstone's 10
Blackstone does not represent US reality
The link leads me nowhere I'm afraid.
Are the promoters alleging that these 250 are clearly and obviously actually innocent, or merely that there are faults in their convictions such that they should have been found innocent under the law ?
Blackstone's aphorism is - obviously - about actual innocence or gullt, not the legal kind.
No doubt actual innocence can sometimes be demonstrated to something approching certainty, but that's not really a game that the courts are into.
But the implication of your comment is that we should have lower standards for murder convictions than shoplifting convictions.
If we are going to have different standards (and I see no reason we should) then this seems backward to me. The consequences to the defendant of a shoplifting conviction are vastly milder than for a murder conviction.
I think Bob's point is the recidivism risk.
ie if we have a defendant accused of murdering the evil monster who raped his four year old daughter, the odds of him murdering anyone else are very low indeed. Hence we do not need to worry about future murders, so the cost of a wrongful acquittal is low.
But f we have a defendant accused of murder in the course of a liquor store robbery, things are different. There's a real risk of more murder if we wrongly acquit.
Hence the Bob point is that letting a recidivist shoplifter go free is low risk. Tiresome for shopkeepers, sure. But letting a recivist murderer go free is different, at least sometimes. We're looking at the possibility of more deaths. And not those nice clean execution deaths with a priest on hand, where we complain if the executed man looked like he was suffering for 30 seconds or so. Deaths where the victim might be suffering for hours. And there's no priest in sight.
So you're comparing the penalty suffered by the wrongly convicted shoplifter with the penalty suffered by the wrongly convicted murderer and not unnaturally shying away from the latter, greater, harm.
But Bob's comparison is different. The cost to future victims of shoplfiting recidivists is way lower than the cost to future murder victims. He' shying away from the latter.
That said I doubt that in our system ten guilty murderers go free for every innocent man who is convicted .... except in the sense that those guilty men who are in fact convicted and ought to be executed, almost always escape with their lives.
But the man with the shotgun in the liquor store probably has a growing history --- and we are back to the Broken Windows view.
Be hard on FIRST OFFENDERS so that those who can learn a lesson learn it early on.
We agree with Blackstone depending only on who the guilty and innocent are. The recent escalations of public/partisan lawfare are ample proof of that.
One thing to keep in mind is that the criminal law is but one means to penalize people. The great power involved warrants a higher burden of proof. The standard of due process in other cases must meet a weaker test.
People confuse this at times. So, for instance, confirmations where the evidence of wrongdoing is not beyond a reasonable doubt are deemed appropriate. But not confirming someone, especially to a lifetime appointment, is not akin to a prison sentence.
Likewise, 14A, sec. 3 is not a criminal provision.
There are various ways to address people not found guilty BARD who might still be guilty.
This could be true, but not necessarily so. Aside from the trivial cases (e.g. the guilty person is dead or otherwise beyond the court’s power to punish, or the guilty people are also convicted while the innocent person is wrongly convicted of conspiring them), there’s the case where the person is innocent not because they were wrongly identified as the perpetrator of an actual crime, but because no crime was committed at all (so there is no guilty person.
You can also flip this on its head. If an innocent person is wrongly convicted, an innocent person is harmed (by being punished in a way they don’t deserve). If a guilty person is wrongly acquitted, multiple innocent people may be harmed (by being victimized by the guilty person in the future) and a guilty person benefits (by not being held accountable for the first crime, and by facing lesser penalties for those they commit in the future).
I don’t, to be clear, disagree that a false positive is worse than a false negative, or that the beyond a reasonable doubt standard is the right one for criminal cases. But I don’t think this kind of simplistic analysis is all that persuasive, especially when it’s not really tethered to any specific suggestions for how things should work. (I guess those are in the book?)
As I note above, we also need to remember that any acquittal (if there is indeed some underlying crime) leaves the guilty man free to carrying on criming. We get that extra crime even when the court correctly acquits the innocent.
We get that extra crime even when the court correctly acquits the innocent.
The solution to that should be clear. If it is very, very difficult to convict an innocent person, then investigators and prosecutors have all the more incentive to be thorough and not jump to conclusions and take the shortcuts that would lead them to charging someone innocent.
If you want fewer guilty people remaining free, then you can start by making sure that you charge fewer innocent people. That's a win-win. Fewer innocent people being charged, means fewer innocent people being convicted, and therefore fewer innocent people exonerated after spending years in prison for crimes they did not convict. That increases public confidence in the accuracy of the justice system and that it is really is just.
I don't think anyone is opposed to the criminal justice system getting better at distinguishing the (actually) innocent from the (actually) guilty. (Subject to costs and practicality etc.)
But the problem is - once you have done as much as you reasonably can to get the answer right, what are the costs of getting it wrong, in either direction ?
So unless you have a cunning scheme that, at reasonable cost, enables the prosecutors more efficiently to distinguish between the innocent and the guilty, the demand to make it very difficult to convict the innocent is ipso facto a demand to make it very difficult to convict the guilty. Which is not, alas, a good scheme for reducing crime. It's a good scheme for increasing crime. For it allows more perps to continue plying their trade.
Acquitting the innocent is not an objective of the criminal justice system. It is a constraint on the objective of the criminal justice system, which is to convict the guilty and thereby protect the public from their depredations.
It is like the cost of a new missile system. The objective is a whizzo new weapon that will protect the nation. The dollars paid out are a constraint, not an objective - we wish to minimize costs while getting our hands on the weapon.
Though I appreciate that this point is obscured by actual government practice from which any reasonable observer would conclude that it is the other way round. The objective being to spend as much as possible, subject to the constraint of finishing up with a missile that you can colorably claim to be the reason why so much has been spent.
So unless you have a cunning scheme that, at reasonable cost, enables the prosecutors more efficiently to distinguish between the innocent and the guilty...
Is looking for reliable evidence and waiting until all of the evidence you are likely to find is available before you draw a conclusion a cunning scheme? If so, then I do have one.
There is, by definition, more evidence that someone is guilty of crime when they are guilty than if they are innocent. The evidence doesn't collect itself, though, so that is why investigators exist and why they need to do their jobs thoroughly before they start arresting people.
I would rate it a sub-cunning scheme. It fails to take account of the additional work required when you assemble eleven items of proof as opposed to eight, especially when the last three are harder to find. This extra work is necessarily subtracted from the work available for prosecuting other suspected perps.
And it doesn’t take account of the cost of delay. While you are spending that extra 6 months trying to get from sure to very supersure, the target of your investigation may have got fifteen more car thefts, five more muggings and a rape under his belt.
I’m not against the cops and prosecutors getting it right, I’m in favor. But extra work and delay doesn’t come free. Hence my qualification above for cunning schemes- reasonable cost.
I don’t think anyone (except some MAGA partisans) disagrees that it’s good to not charge people with committing crimes that they didn’t commit.
Yes, but that is to cut the causal chain too early.
By having such shit public education we are producing kids whose only path will be crime. As a college teacher I saw a scary number of guys you wouln't hire for even minimum wage. Poor work habits, not very educated, bearing a sense of privilege.
Let's not forget we almost never test this standard in practice.
People who maintain their innocence get punished much more harshly than those who confess guilt, to the point where it's common to give people a choice between confessing guilt and going free immediately or maintaining innocence and being incarcerated indefinitely.
I view the 10 guilty people going free vs. 1 innocent person being punished framing as an error of logical thought. The whole point is that you can't know with 100% certainty who is innocent and who is guilty. Thus, you could never know with a high degree of certainty how how many guilty will go free because of your efforts to avoid punishing the innocent, or how many innocent get punished if you don't make that effort. This proposition is useless in judging the moral calculus because of that. At least, that is how I think about it.
I feel that the logical way to approach the problem is to work to optimize the probabilities: what can you build into the system that minimizes both the chances of punishing someone innocent and the number of guilty that are not caught and punished. All while maintaining the constraints of the more obvious and universal agreements regarding fundamental rights, naturally.
- No coercion of suspects or witnesses
- No searches without sufficient cause
- No detention without access to courts
- Adequate legal counsel for all those accused
- Trial by a jury of ones peers
And so on
I strongly agree with most of this, especially that framing things in numerical terms is not only not helpful, but actively unhelpful.
I would take issue with. “No searches without sufficient cause” though. The legality of a search rarely has any bearing on the reliability of the evidence uncovered. There are obviously very good policy reasons to preclude certain searches, but promoting the truth finding function isn’t really one of them.
This is where logic begs for actual experience.
By not being harsh on first offenses and the illegal activities that can lead to further and worse crimes, we are logically tempting all sorts of juvenilles into chancing greater and greater crimes.
Want to help cut drugs down. Turn the emphasis to first time minor offenders.
Want to help cut drugs down. Turn the emphasis to first time minor offenders.
Logic and experience are not mutually exclusive, you know. In fact, I'd say that experience can make good use of logic in order to turn it into what we might call "wisdom."
Does it work as a deterrent to harshly penalize minor offenses? Do young people really see people they know being thrown in jail for possessing weed or stuffing their pockets with candy and running out of the store, and then think, "Wow, I better not commit any crimes ever..."
Of course, the other logical issue with considering numbers of guilty going free vs. innocent going to prison is that it reduces it to a utilitarian question.The question of how natural rights factor into the analysis should not be so easily set aside, especially by libertarians, I would think.
I agree, but I think it's hard to escape from utilitarian considerations because no actual criminal justice system can respect natural rights absolutely - there is always the possibility of error.
There's a lot of detail that doesn't fit easily into sweeping and highly generalized natural rights claims. If you are wrongly convicted of some driving offense - which is not a violation of anyone else's natural rights, but merely a regultory offense - and fined $250 - how is this a worse deprivation of your natural rights than having $35,000 grabbed from you in income tax ?
I'm favorable to a natural rights perspective but also favorable to the idea that we are humans living on Earth, not angels living in the heavens, and criminal justice must therefore and necessarily be a practical matter.
If you are wrongly convicted of some driving offense - which is not a violation of anyone else's natural rights, but merely a regultory offense - and fined $250 - how is this a worse deprivation of your natural rights than having $35,000 grabbed from you in income tax ?
This seems like an easy thing to respond to. If you are wrongfully fined $250...well...then it was wrong. If you are taxed $35,000 in accordance with laws passed through constitutional means and by a legislative majority, then there is nothing wrong with that. You may not like being taxed that much or in that manner. You may not like what the government does with that money. But it is not a deprivation of your natural rights at all.
We don't have a natural right to the benefits of having a government as opposed to anarchy without having to pay any taxes.
Then you don't agree if you say 'hard to escape'
When you pick a road speed limit based on best mortality rate that is not the same as being utilitarian. Deaths will happen related to there not being cars at all, if you wan't to be logical.
There is always the possibility of error but you imply illogically that a utilitarian approach escapes that. IT INCREASES IT>
I’m struggling to see how setting a speed limit and balancing the benefit of fewer accidents against the costs of making people take longer to get from A to B isn’t utilitarian.
All questions of that sort require measuring oranges against apples. Which is utilitarian.
I’m struggling to see how setting a speed limit and balancing the benefit of fewer accidents against the costs of making people take longer to get from A to B isn’t utilitarian.
I'm struggling to see where I said it wasn't. When you said this:
...how is this a worse deprivation of your natural rights than having $35,000 grabbed from you in income tax ?
That presupposes that both are deprivations of natural rights, and that is what I was disputing.
More to the point you were mainly going for - I should probably be more clear about my criticism here, as you do have an important point. The 10 to 1 ratio thing is pitting utility vs. natural rights. A purely utilitarian argument would only be concerned with the net effects on public safety and freedom. That is, how many fewer/more people suffer and is the magnitude of their suffering less/more. 10 guilty people going free would then be judged against 1 innocent person being punished only on how it affected the amount and severity of crime plus the number of innocent people being sent to prison or fined. The judgement is then giving equal weight to each victim.
Taking natural rights into account, does the innocent person being put in prison have the same weight in the analysis as a person that is a victim of a crime committed by a guilty person that wasn't caught and punished? (Assuming some rough equivalence in the degree of suffering both experience.)
My belief is that they are not equal. The innocent person put in prison was victimized by the government. That is worse, in my view, than being victimized by a criminal. Why? Because the government's core function is to protect your rights. Only if the criminal was a parent or other caregiver of the victim would I see that as being equal. A government that truly does all it reasonably can to avoid punishing the innocent - well, that is like the person that was trying to help someone but makes a mistake and harms them instead. As long as they were acting 'reasonably', you don't fault them, morally, and wouldn't hold them even civilly liable under most circumstances, right?
All of these value judgements, though, like End ofhow "reasonable" is the government being in trying to get things right, are really dependent on how much we value a person's right to be free compared to a person's right not to be harmed by people that aren't the government. Maybe I am misunderstanding the meaning of utilitarianism, if that is a utilitarian consideration. But I don't think it is.
1. my speed limit point was a reply to Ama who seemed to be making a utilitarian point while denying that he/she/it was so doing
2. You are not going to get an argument from me about utilitarianism being an ugy thing. I thought it was ugly when I first encountered it in philosophy class - ooo I do not wish to say how many decades ago. It's just that in practice it's a difficult beastie to avoid.
3. As it happens I do not agree that being unjustly punished by the government is worse than being equally harmed (physically) by a criminal. What may make it more painful is not who is doing the harm but that it may add loss of honor and reputation to the physical or other material harm. But reasonable people can differ on these matters. From a utilitarian point of view, this extra harm can be added into the calculation - to include it does not break the utilitarian computational system.
4. The difficulty with natural rights in practice in a criminal justice system is that what distinguishes natural rights from utilitaran calculation is that natural rights are inalienable and so of infinite value. That is why they break the utilitarian calculation, math-wise. You can't have a criminal justice system that sets infinite value on avoiding wrongful conviction. You can have one that sets a high value on that, and take that high value into account, but then you're still doing utilitarianism, just with different values plugged in for the variables.
5. But as I say - utilitarianism - yuck !
It should never be set aside.
The article doesn't run counter to my belief that in some serious cases, juries convict on less certainty than "beyond reasonable doubt" thinking that the appeals process will give the accused another chance if their decision to convict was wrong, while it reduces the chance of false acquittals.
Of course, as we know in practice, the US legal system does not work like that, particularly since the pernicious AEDPA. And clearly if your preference is to weaken the evidentiary standard for conviction, you are morally required to improve the appeals process.
That is especially problematic given that appeals virtually never reconsider the factual judgement of juries, absent compelling newly discovered evidence. (In my layman's understanding, at least.)
This runs into the old seat belt problem - the better the seat belts, the faster you drive.
If the criminal justice system is packed with formal rules to protect defendants that the jury thinks is guilty, the jury will .... just drive faster.
Consequently what you see in the formal rules is never going to be what you get in the verdicts, unless the formal rules are set in such a way that juries generally believe that following them will send the right people to jail and the wrong people home.