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Bill Maher's Saying Trump "Might Be" "Fucking" Republican Activist Laura Loomer Might Be Defamation of Loomer
A judge lets Loomer's defamation claim against Maher and HBO go forward.
An excerpt from today's decision in Loomer v. Maher, by Judge James Moody (M.D. Fla.):
[According to] the Complaint[,] Plaintiff Laura Loomer is a "well-known conservative investigative journalist." Loomer is also a "conservative, Republican, Jewish female activist." In the past, Loomer has worked for Canadian news publisher The Rebel Media as well as Project Veritas. Loomer also has her own media company called Illoominate Media, which operates in this circuit. Loomer was a Republican candidate for Florida's 11th congressional district in 2022. Defendant Bill Maher is the host of "Real Time with Bill Maher," a weekly hour-long television program that airs on Defendant Home Box Office, Inc.'s network ("HBO")….
[T]he Complaint alleges that on a September 13, 2024, episode of Maher's show "Real Time," which HBO broadcasted nationally and internationally, Maher made and published the following false, malicious, and defamatory statement of and concerning Loomer:
I think maybe Laura Loomer's in an arranged relationship to affect the election because she's very close to Trump. She's 31, looks like his type. We did an editorial here a few years ago…it was basically, who's Trump fucking? Because I said, you know, it's not nobody. He's been a dog for too long, and it's not Melania. I think we may have our answer this week. I think it might be Laura Loomer.
According to the Complaint: "In this statement, Defendant Maher makes the false statement that Ms. Loomer is in a sexual relationship with Donald Trump, who is a married man." Thus, Defendant Maher "falsely and maliciously accused Ms. Loomer of having committed adultery with Donald Trump."
The Complaint continues to allege that Maher's statements were "plainly false [because] Ms. Loomer has never engaged in sexual relations with President Donald Trump." And that there is not a "shred of credible reporting or evidence suggesting otherwise." Loomer claims that Defendant Maher had no basis in fact to make this statement. He simply fabricated it for attention, notoriety, "clicks," and profit for himself and Defendant HBO, his employer….
At this pleading stage, the Complaint adequately alleges that Maher's statements were actionable statements of facts concerning Loomer. Indeed, and as Loomer argues in her filings, Maher cannot, at this stage, escape liability because he couches his statements as a joke, an opinion, or as "conjecture, hypothesis, or speculation" because the statements do not appear that way on their face.
Loomer alleges that Maher stated as a fact that Loomer "might" be "fucking" President Trump, a married man, which she claims was and is false and which is capable of being proven false. Maher's use of the term "might" does not automatically render Maher's statements protected opinion or conjecture. See McQueen v. Baskin (Fla. App. 2023) (stating: "Simply couching such statements in terms of opinion does not dispel these implications; and the statement, 'In my opinion Jones is a liar,' can cause as much damage to reputation as the statement, 'Jones is a liar.'") (citing Lipsig v. Ramlawi (Fla. App. 2000) ("However, a speaker cannot invoke a 'pure opinion' defense, if the facts underlying the opinion are false or inaccurately presented."))….
While Defendants may view Maher's statements as "speculative joking," he made them during a non-comedic and serious panel discussion with conservative pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson and former U.S. Senator Al Franken that involved topics such as alleged police brutality. Also, and, as Loomer points out, when Maher told the purported "joke" about Loomer, "it drew more groans from the audience than sparse laughter." So Defendants' motion to dismiss is denied to the extent the motion argues that the subject statements were not about facts.
Defendants next argue that Loomer did not plead malice, which is required because Loomer is a public figure. While the Court agrees with Defendants that Loomer must plead malice—even with respect to her defamation per se claims—the Court disagrees that malice is not adequately pled in the Complaint. Loomer alleges that: "These false and misleading statements were broadcasted with actual malice, as Defendants knew that they were false and misleading, and/or at a minimum acted and published with a reckless disregard for the truth."
The Complaint further alleges that there is not a "shred of credible reporting or evidence suggesting otherwise" and that "Defendant Maher had no basis in fact to make this statement. He simply fabricated it for attention, notoriety, "clicks," and profit for himself and Defendant HBO, his employer." Assuming the truth of these allegations, which the Court must do at this stage, Maher was knowingly reckless because he fabricated what he said about Loomer "fucking" President Trump.
Also, the Complaint avers that Defendants refused to retract what they said about Loomer after being placed on notice that the statements were false and Maher, again acting with malice, chose to target Loomer in a subsequent September 20, 2024, episode of "Real Time," with a segment titled "24 Things You Don't Know About Laura Loomer" where he continued to make alleged false and disparaging statements about Loomer.
Tellingly, Defendants argue facts that are not alleged in the Complaint to prove their point that Maher was not reckless, a red herring on a motion to dismiss. For example, Defendants contend that: "in light of Ms. Loomer's own statements about her affection for Trump, repeated appearances the two made together in the days leading up to the September 13, 2024 episode, and rumors about their relationship, Mr. Maher had ample reason to believe they 'may' be sleeping together." The Court cannot consider these purported facts at this stage. Accordingly, Defendants' argument that malice is not sufficiently pled is denied….
Larry Klayman (Klayman Law Group P.A.) represents Loomer.
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I remember Maher making the same observation in a context where I thought it was clearly opinion based on disclosed facts. Maybe he said it more than once.
That's what I thought too. On its face it's an opinion based on disclosed facts framed as an opinion based on disclosed facts. Seems like it should have been an easy dismiss.
As a perhaps interesting side note, the case the judge cites for Maher's statement not being opinion is McQueen v. Baskin (Fla. App. 2023), wherein that bitch Carole Baskin was sued for falsely (allegedly) accusing a former secretary of theft. In the Baskin case, the judge observed:
"And although Ms. Baskin may have offered a qualification about the nature of her vlog and couched certain parts as her personal opinion, actionable defamatory statements do not become non- defamatory when, as here, the context of the statements swallows up the caveats."
https://casetext.com/case/mcqueen-v-baskin
That seems not at all the case with Maher's statement. There's just no way "the context overwhelms the caveats." Not even arguable so. In my opinion. Based on the facts disclosed herein.
Seems wrong. Whatever.
Wrong that a jury should take a look at it and figure out the facts?
Wrong that anyone could reasonably perceive this as a statement of fact, and wrong that zoomer adequately alleged actual malice.
Really?!?
Obviously.
But it's great. A trial on whether or not Trump and Loomer were in fact fucking would be a wonderful gift to the world.
I'm not a great supporter of the actual malice high bar, but as long as it's the law ... the judge concludes that Loomer adequately pleads reckless disregard by alleging that Maher made his statement without evidence.
But I understood the test to be "high awareness of probable falsity", that would seem to be met if he had ignored evidence of falsity but not if he merely lacked evidence of truth. Otherwise it seems a lot of political pundits may be on the hook.
Suppose the jury decides that Maher made no attempt to investigate his claim and had no evidence to back it up? Would that be within the jurors' discretion under the 7th Amendment?
I understand that, before our greater modern awareness of anti-sexist constitutional principles, it was defamatory per se to impute unchastity to a woman. We can probably rejoice that the law is no longer so discriminatory toward women (and anyway, we don't know what a woman is, anyway).
It's adultery, not just unchastity.
And why doesn't Melindia have a case?
Why not Donald?
Who is "Melindia" and what defamatory statement do you think Maher said about this random person?
Is Grampa Ed an AI?
Kinda boggled that Gramps doesn't know how spell "Melania".
But hey, drunk posting also works.
According to current case law mere failure to investigate does not establish actual malice, although a deliberate decision not to investigate so as to avoid confirming suspicions of falsehood can. These are subjective tests required to be proven by clear and convincing evidence, but the jury has wide latitude in deciding them.
So actual malice means you can make something up with no evidence at all, so long as you have no evidence of falsity?
"Politician X Tortures Little Puppies For Fun"
I have no idea if that is true or not. No actual malice?
Please, I know they're all hard to tell apart, but we're talking about Loomer, not Noam.
In many jurisdictions, including big ones like New York, yes. But apparently not in Florida.
See my comment below.
If the charge was entirely ungrounded then no. No reasonable person could fail to have serious doubts about the truth of something random they made up.
But if Politician X had a history of animal cruelty, maybe from long ago, and he had recently been surrounding himself with puppies would it be reckless to publicly accuse him? Even if there were zero evidence of torture, just suspicion and speculation, proclivity and opportunity?
I would be happy if the answer were "no", but I don't think it is.
Oops ... I meant to say I would be happy if the answer were "yes". if absence of evidence of the accused act were enough, but I don't think it is.
Many jurisdictions have adopted a definition of actual malice in which only the reckless and irresponsible among us who, motivated by a foolish and shameful concern for truth, can be held liable for libel. These jurisdictions attempt to deter fact-finding as inimical and dangerous to society by ensuring that those who foolishly investigate facts hefore speaking risk uncovering facts that negate their statements, hence making them liable, Responsible citizens, on the other hand, those who wisely and prudently take the socially responsible approach of pulling shit out of their asses without investigating before defaming, are beloved of and protected by the law in these jurisdictions, because this responsible and socially favored behavior ensures they never encounter contrary facts, rendering them completely immune from liability.
Florida appears not to be one of these jurisdictions. Simply pulling shit out of ones ass before speaking can still render one liable for libel. Conducting some sort of investigation before defaming may be a very unAmerican thing to do - people who do it certainly don’t seem to get elected to high political office in this country, and in most jurisdictions judges highly disapprove of it - but it seems Florida has gone a maverick, minority route by requiring it.
Game recognizes gameBatshit crazy loon recognizes batshit crazy loon.In related news, Rudi just settled.
I make no distinction.
It’s true… sad to say, “Rudi” appears to be just as crazy as Klamath and Loomer.
In related news, Dr. Ed cannot manage to spell a name that is only four letters long correctly.
AI Grampa!
The fact that it is not acceptable for me to either use that word or its meaning relative to David illustrates why I think that Loomer ought to recover for something.
I don't know David, whatever I might write, no matter how vile, MIGHT be true, and is that the legal standard we really want to have? Or should we expect that damaging statements be based on at least a rational basis?
Absent some basis to think otherwise, shouldn't David be presumed to be of good character? Why not Loomer? Why not anyone?!?
Batshit crazy loons in glass houses shouldn't throw stones crazy Dave.
Bot programmed to respond "I know you are but what am I" when it runs out of other stuff to say.
You don’t seem to understand that your BS makes no sense as a response. You’re overdoing the batshit crazy trolling. Less is more crazy Dave.
I find these fact-specific cases quite interesting.
1. Maher is a comedian and is know for telling jokes. (Point in favor of him.)
2. His claim (or joke) was falsifiable. (Point in favor of her)
3. His joke/claim was (we all assume) based on an untrue premise (Point for her)
4. He made it clear that it was his opinion ("think" and "might"). (Point for him.)
5. It was clear that he was not basing his common on any undisclosed facts that he held and that his audience was unaware of. (Point for him.)
I think it's a correct result that you can't just use "I think" or "In my opinion" to automatically avoid liability. Just like Trump always using the linguistic device, "...Some people are saying ___ ..." should not immunize him from libel or slander or defamation.
And I think that this is exactly the sort of case that should go to a jury, so that it can hear all the evidence and make a judgment. So, at this procedural stage: No problem at all with the ruling. At trial? Well, I'm skeptical, but we'll see what evidence both sides produce in discovery.
And so far all the judge did was say the plaintiff can go to a jury.
Incidentally, which comedians today actually make you physically laugh?
A friend has introduced me to "dry bar comedy", and some of that is pretty funny.
Objection.
joke
/jōk/
noun
a thing that someone says to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline.
I am pretty sure that Maher hasn't been in the same zipcode as a joke in the last 20 years.
You probably didn't care for Mark Russell either -- basically Maher's flavor of biting, ironic humor to piano music.
The Simpsons parody of him was a lot funnier than he was.
It’s an opinion. But based on his commenting style on this blog, has David Nierpoint ever found ANYTHING funny?
I was going to say that Religulous was pretty funny.
But then I looked up how close it is to 20 years old, and decided to just forget about it instead.
While I remember when it was out, I admit I didn't catch that one.
But at least on his show, Bill Maher specializes in what Seth Meyers once named "clapter." (A portmanteau of clapping and laughter, obviously.) He doesn't deliver his lines to elicit laughs; he delivers his lines to get his audience to cheer and woohoo him in solidarity for saying the stuff they want to hear.
He doesn't deliver his lines to elicit laughs; he delivers his lines to get his audience to cheer and woohoo him in solidarity for saying the stuff they want to hear.
Exactly. That is the pretty much the whole shtick for some in comedy. Some of them think that being 'funny' means showing everyone how brave and smart they are for going against what most people think is acceptable or civil in order to speak some kind of 'truth' that the majority doesn't like. Good political comedy and satire does that without the performer needing to pump up their own ego and sense of superiority.
As a more substantive rebuttal to your list, I don't think that's the right analysis, and I don't think this is a fact-specific case at all. (Unless, of course, Maher's defense is that Trump and Loomer actually were having an affair; if it's true, it's not defaation.) What sort of facts would tell you whether a reasonable person would have thought that Maher was making a factual claim based on undisclosed facts?
Wouldn't it be invasion of privacy to reveal (private) sexual activities?
It might be, depending on the circumstances, but there are at least two problems with that here:
1) There's a newsworthiness exception, which quite obviously encompasses a president/presidential candidate having an affair with someone — as you must realize, since that's happened many times w/o any lawsuits;
2) The facts must be true for that to be a viable cause of action, and Loomer is claiming they're unequivocally false.
Comedy is funny, vile personal attacks are not.
For the record, I'd be saying the same thing about (MA Governor) Maura Healey, who's also a lesbian. Think of all the vile personal attacks she could be subjected to.
I'll go after Healey for what she does and says -- it's enough -- I don't care who she sleeps with. Or who Trump sleeps with. The left wing loon known as (Boston Mayor) Wu just had a baby -- I assume she got pregnant somehow, but it's none of my business.
It's hard not to read the quotes around "fucking" as scare quotes.
Unrestricted lawfare. Since Giuliani has to pay $150M for the purported harm caused by his defaming two Georgia election workers (does anyone really believe Guiliani's attacks probably improved their social standing) I look forward to total annihilation of anyone who says anything about another person. I think MSNBC should be forced to pay Trump and many other conservatives hundreds of billions of dollars for all the knowingly false crap they have spewed over the last 8 years. Just sue them in Texas.
You also think the 2020 election was stolen, so dunno if your take on what's true and what's a lie is gonna carry the day.
As to your take on what's damaging and what's not, you just haven't looked into the case. Most of the damages are not from the defamation, but for emotional damage and punitive.
Lest you scoff:
"On the witness stand, Moss and Freeman described fearing for their lives as hateful messages poured in. Moss told jurors she tried to change her appearance, seldom leaves her home and suffers from panic attacks. Her mother described strangers banging on her door and recounted fleeing her home after people came with bullhorns and the FBI told her she wasn’t safe."
As for the punitive bit:
"An attorney for Moss and Freeman, in his closing argument, highlighted how Giuliani has not stopped repeating the false conspiracy theory asserting the workers interfered in the November 2020 presidential election. Attorney Michael Gottlieb played a video of Giuliani outside the courthouse on Monday, in which Giuliani falsely claimed the women were “engaged in changing votes.”
“Mr. Giuliani has shown over and over again he will not take our client’s names out of his mouth,” Gottlieb said. “Facts will not stop him. He says he isn’t sorry and he’s telegraphing he will do this again. Believe him.”
The FBI telling Black women they can't/won't protect them from angry White males?!?
Can you imagine how much shyte would hit the fan if they actually did that?!? We'd have riots that made BLM look like a sunday school picnic.
"You also think the 2020 election was stolen, so dunno if your take on what's true and what's a lie is gonna carry the day."
Says the guy who thinks the Hunter Biden laptop was a Russian op.
I've actually grown rather fond of Bill over the past couple of years, not only for his sharp wit but as a damn good exemplar of what "liberal" used to mean (the classical, common-sense flavor) and hopefully will again someday.
But he's eminently capable of being both funny and effective without stooping to this sort of level. I don't read Loomer, but if she really is half the nut job she's routinely portrayed to be, that itself should provide endless reams of juicy material for him to work with rather than genning up tabloid-grade nonsense.
I was at the Wednesday morning ATR meeting when Maher spoke to Grover Norquist's group back in 2002 or so. He was a bit of a jerk and he was getting chauffeured around in a huge limo. That said, I have a grudging respect for him.
There was a time when networks had standards and saying "...is fucking..." would get someone fired. The word would alone.
Maher's show is on HBO, which I'm fairly sure never had anything resembling that sort of standards.
There was a time when even Dr. Ed might have been smart enough to know that HBO is not a network.
Wiki says: "Home Box Office is an American pay television network, which is the flagship property of namesake parent-subsidiary Home Box Office, Inc., itself a unit owned by Warner Bros."
Ed says it is a "network", wiki says it is -- and???
Odd that it’s not defamation against Trump. Yes, Trump can f**k whoever he wants, willingly or not. 180 degrees from where we were with Bill Clinton.
It’s defamation against Trump to the same extent it’s defamation against Loomer. He just didn’t bother suing over it.
I get the impression that Trump doesn't consider that sort of thing defamatory so long as they're good looking.
I think Trump would be quite pleased that anyone would think he could still get it up at his age.
If a political commentator/comedian can get in legal trouble for speculating about who's fucking who without making an actual claim of fact and knowledge, then just how many such commentators and comedians are going to get sued going forward?
"We did an editorial here a few years ago…it was basically, who's Trump fucking? Because I said, you know, it's not nobody. He's been a dog for too long, and it's not Melania. I think we may have our answer this week. I think it might be Laura Loomer."
There's no claim of fact there. "I think..." can only be the lead in to expressing an opinion or, at most, explaining a conclusion one is drawing based on facts. Add in "it might" and the built in uncertainty of that word choice should eliminate any possibility of the statement being defamatory given the rest of the context. (I do suppose that there will be limits to how much someone can get away with just because they disingenuously insert "I think" and "might" or "maybe" into things they are saying that they clearly want an audience to believe is true. But that isn't what Maher is doing under any reasonable reading of his words.)
I compare Jason to Wilbur Mills 50 years ago where he actually did that stuff. Or Gary Hart "I dare you to catch me."
LBJ used to urinate in parking lots -- you didn't see pictures of that on the wire service...
... but now it's fair to say he must be cheating????
What
Move the shoe to the other foot. Suppose Maher made a similar joke about Kamala Harris.
Move the shoe to the other foot. Suppose Maher made a similar joke about Kamala Harris.
Why would that bother me any more than this one did? If it's a joke, it is not defamation no matter who the target is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilbur_Mills#Scandal,_alcoholism,_recovery_and_retirement
He chased a stripper on stage in the Combat Zone.
I'm still left asking...what?