The Volokh Conspiracy
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Trump v. Selzer Likely Going Nowhere
Monday's Complaint in this case essentially alleges that pollster Ann Selzer's Nov. 2 poll for the Des Moines Register, which showed Harris ahead in Iowa by 3 points, was deceptive to consumers and thus violated Iowa consumer fraud law:
62. President Trump, together with all Iowa and American voters, is a "consumer" within the meaning of the statute.
63. Defendants furnished "merchandise" to consumers within the broad meaning of the statute since they provided a service: physical newspapers, online newspapers, and other content that contained the Harris Poll.
64. Defendants engaged in "deception" because the Harris Poll was "likely to mislead a substantial number of consumers as to a material fact or facts," to wit: the actual position of the respective candidates in the Iowa Presidential race.
65. Defendants engaged in an "unfair act or practice" because the publication and release of the Harris Poll "cause[d] substantial, unavoidable injury to consumers that [was] not outweighed by any consumer or competitive benefits which the practice produced," to wit: consumers, including Plaintiff, were badly deceived and misled as to the actual position of the respective candidates in the Iowa Presidential race. Moreover, President Trump, the Trump 2024 Campaign, and other Republicans were forced to divert enormous campaign and financial resources to Iowa based on the deceptive Harris Poll. Consumers within Iowa who paid for subscriptions to the Des Moines Register or who otherwise purchased the publication were also badly deceived. Additionally, Iowans who contributed to the Trump 2024 Campaign were similarly deceived.
66. The Harris Poll was deceptive and misleading, unfair, and the result of concealment, suppression, and omission of material facts about the true respective positions of President Trump and Harris in the Presidential race, all of which were known to Defendants and should have been disclosed to the public.
67. Moreover, as demonstrated by the leak of the Harris Poll before publication in the Register Article, Defendants created, published, and released the Harris Poll for the improper purpose of deceptively influencing the outcome of the 2024 Presidential Election….
I'm far from sure that, as a statutory matter, the Iowa consumer fraud law should be interpreted as applying to allegedly deceptive informational content of a newspaper, untethered to attempts to sell some other product. But in any event, the First Amendment generally bars states from imposing liability for misleading or even outright false political speech, including in commercially distributed newspapers—and especially for predictive and evaluative judgments of the sort inherent in estimating public sentiment about a candidate. To quote the Washington Court of Appeals in WASHLITE v. Fox News, where plaintiff unsuccessfully sued Fox for allegedly false statements about COVID,
[T]he Supreme Court in U.S. v. Alvarez (2012) disavowed the principle that false expressions in general receive a lesser degree of constitutional protections simply by virtue of being false. The court stated that its precedent restricting the value or protections afforded objectively false statements
all derive from cases discussing defamation, fraud, or some other legally cognizable harm associated with a false statement, such as an invasion of privacy or the costs of vexatious litigation. In those decisions the falsity of the speech at issue was not irrelevant to our analysis, but neither was it determinative. The Court has never endorsed the categorical rule the Government advances: that false statements receive no First Amendment protection.
The court went on to explain that,
[w]ere the Court to hold that the interest in truthful discourse alone is sufficient to sustain a ban on speech, absent any evidence that the speech was used to gain a material advantage, it would give government a broad censorial power unprecedented in this Court's cases or in our constitutional tradition.
WASHLITE's allegations that the challenged statements are false and recklessly made simply cannot overcome the protections afforded speech on matters of public concern under the First Amendment, even in the face of the State's undoubtedly compelling interest in the public dissemination of accurate information regarding threats to public health.
The First Amendment's guarantee of free speech does not extend only to categories of speech that survive an ad hoc balancing of relative social costs and benefits. The First Amendment itself reflects a judgment by the American people that the benefits of its restrictions on the Government outweigh the costs. Our Constitution forecloses any attempt to revise that judgment simply on the basis that some speech is not worth it.
United States v. Stevens (2010).
"If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." Texas v. Johnson (1989). Although WASHLITE pursues the meritorious goal of ensuring that the public receives accurate information about the COVID-19 pandemic, the challenged statements do not fall within the narrow exceptions to the First Amendment's protections. We affirm the trial court's conclusion that, however laudable WASHLITE's intent, its CPA claim is barred by the First Amendment.
The same logic applies here, I think. To be sure, as WASHLITE and Alvarez noted, there are some historically recognized exceptions to First Amendment protection for knowing falsehoods, such as for defamation, fraud, and perjury. But those are deliberately exceptions. Defamation is limited to knowing (or sometimes negligent) falsehoods that damage a particular person's reputation. Fraud is limited to statements that themselves request money or other tangibly valuable items. Perjury is limited to lies under oath in governmental proceedings. There is no general government power to punish political falsehoods outside these narrow exceptions.
In addition to the Alvarez plurality statements cited by the Washington court, note that five Justices and three dissenting Justices in Alvarez agreed that
[T]here are broad areas in which any attempt by the state to penalize purportedly false speech would present a grave and unacceptable danger of suppressing truthful speech…. Laws restricting false statements about philosophy, religion, history, the social sciences, the arts, and the like raise such concerns, and in many contexts have called for strict scrutiny. But this case does not involve such a law.
That's from Justice Breyer's two-Justice concurrence, but Justice Alito's three-Justice dissent took the same view, adding "The point is not that there is no such thing as truth or falsity in these areas or that the truth is always impossible to ascertain, but rather that it is perilous to permit the state to be the arbiter of truth." I think this logic applies to media decisions about how to predict the likely results of an election (again, outside the narrow exceptions noted above). And while some old decisions have upheld state laws focused on knowing falsehoods in election campaigns, post-Alvarez state and federal appellate cases have struck down even such specially targeted laws.
I should note that, when it comes to over-the-air broadcasting, the Court has left the Federal Communications Commission more latitude to restrict speech than the government has with regard to books, films, the Internet, and even cable television. Thus, the Court has upheld the Fairness Doctrine and the ban on broadcasting certain vulgarities. Lower courts have likewise allowed some policing by the FCC of alleged "distortion," see, e.g., Serafyn v. FCC (D.C. Cir. 1998). And the FCC has a specific "broadcast hoaxes rules" barring the publication of knowingly "false information concerning a crime or a catastrophe," if the information foreseeably "cause[s] substantial public harm."
But fortunately, in recent years the FCC has recognized the dangers of policing speech this way, whether in the service of trying to restrict disfavored views or supposed misinformation. The case involving the Washington Redskins is one example; the FCC there recognized that the Court's decision upholding the viewpoint-neutral restrictions on sex- and excretion-related vulgarities in Pacifica couldn't be extended to allegedly bigoted words, which would be punished precisely because of their supposed viewpoints. The FCC commissioners' statements quoted above support this as well, as does the FCC's 2020 decision related to the broadcast hoaxes rule:
[T]he Commission does not—and cannot and will not—act as a self-appointed, free-roving arbiter of truth in journalism. Even assuming for the sake of argument that Free Press's assertions regarding any lack of veracity were true, false speech enjoys some First Amendment protection, and section 326 of the Communications Act, reflecting First Amendment values, prohibits the Commission from interfering with freedom of the press or censoring broadcast communications. Accordingly, the Commission has recognized that "[b]roadcasters—not the FCC or any other government agency—are responsible for selecting the material they air" and that "our role in overseeing program content is very limited."
On the Court, Justices Thomas and Ginsburg had also suggested that it was unsound to offer lesser First Amendment protection to broadcasting; I expect that, if the issue were to come before the Court today, Red Lion and Pacifica would at least be sharply limited and perhaps overruled altogether.
In any event, whatever the status of this special treatment of FCC regulation of over-the-air broadcasting, it has always been understood as limited to such broadcasters, and as not extending to newspapers. And even as to over-the-air broadcasting, it never been extended to allow state law to be used to restrict supposed political misinformation, including on broadcasting networks.
(Note that this post is adapted from a Nov. 1 post about Trump v. CBS Broadcasting, a case in which Trump is suing CBS over its editing of the Harris 60 Minutes interview; the analysis in both situations, I think, is quite similar.)
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I think this gives us a view into just how far down the chain of perceived enemies that Trump is willing to target.
And I'd like a mechanism to mass block every trumpist who defends this in the comments.
If the State of New York hadn't gone after him for the purported fraud they did, i would agree with you. But it did -- and then told everyone else not to worry, they only intended to apply this interpretation to Trump, not anyone else.
But now, all I can say is that all is fair in love, war, and litigation
WTF?
As usual, your comment makes zero sense.
What made zero sense was the basis of the fraud accusation.
What does a NY fraud charge, of which Trump was convicted by a jury, have to do with a poll in Iowa?
You're deranged.
But it's Trump. Dr Ed and other cultists can't help becoming situational cretins. Trump can sue who he likes for whatever he likes because of NY's fraud charge. It makes perfect sense to him. Of course, it's senseless to those outside the cult.
I agree the fraud prosecution was politically motivated and should not have gone forward. But as a matter of law, the basis was clear: falsifying records to conceal a hush money payment made to improve his electoral prospects. It is also clear such fraud is not protected by the First Amendment.
yet there was no second crime to extent the statute of limitations to create the felony, nor can there be an intent to engage in a non crime which would extent the statute of limitations. The statute requires either a crime or intent to commit a crime. An intent to commit a non crime is not an intent to commit a crime.
There was, of course, a "second crime" — Michael Cohen went to jail for it — but no "second crime" is needed to extend the statute of limitations anyway, as the microbiologist/bookkeeper has been told repeatedly.
The Law Understander has logged on.
Haven't we had this complaint from Joe_dallas, and the explanation from David Nieporent, about twenty times already?
Go back to hurling pointless insults and dodging questions, Joe.
The number on here who are doing mighty work to continue to misunderstand this law is a testament to how alluring it is to choose tribe over truth.
Tell us more about "cofounding variables," uncle Joe!
WTF? Legal expenses were noted as fucking legal expenses. WTF else should they have been reported as? The NDA was not a campaign expense as matter of federal law, and the fat POS slob Bragg has no f'ing jurisdiction to prosecute alleged federal campaign financing violations in the first place.
I didn't realize Stormy was Trump's lawyer! What a twist!
So, in your broken little mind, as a matter of general accounting, only when a counter party is actually an attorney can something be itemized as a legal expense? Could you possibly write something more fucking stupid? Yeah, I'm willing to bet on that. But, and here's something your tiny brain doesn't seem to comprehend, it is not a fucking federal campaign violation. Not to mention that the fat slob has no jurisdiction over alleged federal campaign violations, notwithstanding the Biden lawfare pukes were helping him out with Colangelo, the formerly high ranking DOJ official who oddly decided it would be a fantastic career move to work in the Manhattan DAs office under the fat slob no neck.
Paying hush money to your mistress isn't a legal expense by any possible definition, even when you're using your lawyer as a middleman.
According to New York, you're wrong about everything else too.
The expense related to the negotiation and execution of the NDA certainly were. But more importantly it wasn't a federal campaign violation. And it's not NY. It's a corrupt fat slob DA, aided by a former DOJ official from the corrupt Biden DOJ, in a kangaroo court proceeding with a corrupt judge.
Uh Riva, there was a federal campaign finance violation, for which Michael Cohen went to prison.
Donald Trump was charged in New York with violating state law regarding falsification of business records in the first degree, codified at Penal Law § 175.10. The actus reus of the offense is making or causing to be made a false entry in the business records of an enterprise. The applicable mens rea is doing so with intent to defraud that includes an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof. The prosecution need not prove that the other crime was in fact committed, aided, or concealed.
The jury instructions from the trial are here: https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/press/PDFs/People%20v.%20DJT%20Jury%20Instructions%20and%20Charges%20FINAL%205-23-24.pdf
Uh NG, falsifying business records under NY law is a misdemeanor, unless done to hide a crime. The fat slob (sometime at the end of the trial, not in the indictment of course) claimed that crime was a violation of FECA, or maybe a NY statute making it illegal to influence an election by “unlawful” means, which unlawful means was an alleged violation of FECA so it was always FECA (which the fat slob had no jurisdiction over in the first place but it's NY so who knows?) and tossed in some BS tax violations (again only some time during the fucking trial, not in the indictment). But, sticking to FECA (which the fat slob cannot enforce) was there any violation? Nope. Only obligations you incur solely because you are campaigning for office are campaign expenditures, judged by an objective standard. The matters underlying the NDA payment predated Trump's candidacy, they were not created by him being a candidate. In fact, since the obligation existed irrespective of the campaign, paying it with campaign funds would be personal use, and therefore illegal. Again, based on an objective standard, about which the jury was NOT instructed. And, as a matter of timing (again under controlling federal law, not fat slob Bragg law) the payment wouldn't even have been made on the pre-election report, even if it were a campaign expenditure, which it fucking wasn't. As for the corrupt judge's instructions, they allowed for a non-unanimous conviction on any three possible secondary crimes, including conspiracy to conceal a federal election violation, so nobody will ever really know what the fuck the jury actually found.
Riva, have you read the jury charge? Yes or no?
There was one underlying crime (consipracy to promote or prevent an election by unlawful means) and three possible unlawful means to establish that one underlying crime. Trump can appeal (if it comes to that after he leaves office) on whether the jury needed to be unanimous on the three unlawful means.
Josh R....that is what the NY Court of Appeals will zero in upon = the jury needed to be unanimous on the three unlawful means
That long paragraph is exactly why everyone knows Riva is a bot. It posts something that was fed into it from social media. Then every one of the things is refuted. And then an hour or week or month or in this case six months later, it just repeats those things again, word for word. The only variations are in the random insults that are spewed out and attached.
There's no point in repeating all of the refutations, because the actual non-bot human commenters here already read them elsewhere in this thread. But to address just one of them, the bot is of course falsely outputting that Bragg identified potential other crimes "sometime at the end of the trial." The trial began in mid-April 2024.
Bragg identified these potential crimes in a filing with the court on May 16, 2023. In other words, almost a full year before the trial.
Well, yes. A payment to a non-lawyer for non-legal services is not a legal expense, just because you launder the payment through your lawyer's account. But in any case this is all irrelevant because the falsification was not about labeling the payments "legal expenses." The falsification was about calling each monthly reimbursement installment to Cohen as a retainer — the actual word used, rather than "expenses" — for services performed in a given month. But of course that's not what they were for; that was a lie. (Trump's problem is that if he recorded it as "reimbursement," it would have raised the question, "reimbursement for what?")
Incorrect. Michael Cohen went to jail for it, and AMI paid a fine for it.
As noted a few moments ago, you should not mention that, because it's irrelevant.
To make this more concrete: suppose I decide I want to rent a home in the mountains for summer vacation getaways, and I ask my lawyer to arrange to lease it from the owner. My lawyer draws up a lease and then pays the $25,000 rent to the owner on my behalf. I write a check to my lawyer for $25,000 to reimburse him for that. Setting aside any tax-related issues, there's nothing illegal about any of that, of course, but that $25,000 is not a legal expense. It's just a business expense. The fact that I wrote that check to my lawyer rather than directly to the landlord is utterly irrelevant. The name of the payee isn't what determines whether it's a legal expense; the substance of the thing being paid for is.
(But, I reiterate, this is all academic anyway because Trump didn't say "legal expense." He said "Retainer for 3/1 - 3/31.")
To quote a movie of recent vintage: Amazing, every word of what you just said was wrong.
But, as always, the bot is incapable of actually engaging with a discussion, as opposed to just repeating talking points over and over no matter how many times they were refuted.
1. Payments to Stormy Daniels are not legal expenses, since Stormy Daniels is not even a lawyer, let alone Trump's lawyer.
2. The payments were not recorded as "legal expenses." They were recorded as a retainer to Michael Cohen for legal work, even though they were in fact a reimbursement of monies he paid to Stormy Daniels on Trump's behalf.
3. The payment to Stormy Daniels was in fact a campaign expense, as a matter of federal law.
4. Bragg did not prosecute federal campaign financing violations, so whether he has jurisdiction to do so is an utterly irrelevant observation. Bragg charged, prosecuted, and convicted Trump solely with violating NY Penal Law § 175.10. Which — as the label implies — is a New York state law, not a federal one.
5. What's really bizarre about the bot's programmed obsession with calling people fat is that it's in service of support for the not-exactly-svelte Donald Trump. But it just exposes how little substance there is to the criticisms of Bragg.
Actually it does makes some sense, the Trump election fraud case was widely criticized by legal commentators as legally dubious.
Same with the Letitia James state fraud case.
Same as this case, which hasn't been heard yet. Who knows maybe Trump can find a friendly judge and jury and exact his revenge same as Bragg and James did and get a substantial judgement.
Lest you dismiss that prospect out of hand, Disney just settled a defamation case for 15m that many thought was dubious, in part at least because they feared a Trump friendly Florida jury. They would not have settled that case if it were filed in DC or Manhattan.
You are confusing legally dubious with politcally motivated. Bragg had a decent legal case. Trump's is friviolous.
Bragg's prosecution of Trump was politically motivated. He ran for office on a platform of "get Trump."
Right. But, you missed my point: politically motivated doesn't make it legally dubious.
He ran for office on a platform of "get Trump."
This content has been tagged as false for your pleasure.
No. He. Didn't.
Many legal scholars thought Bragg's case was legally dubious. It was clearly politically motivated. But also legally dubious.
The legal validity of Braggs' case is up for argument. Trump's lawsuit is frivolous.
Many people are saying!
Clearly!
Your universe of legal commentators is...not representative.
And then you go after the judges as well.
And THEN you present a jurisdictional counterfactual so you can claim DC and Manhattan have tainted jury pools. With no actual support.
Your Brettification is well underway. Soon everything you don't like will be a liberal conspiracy against you and Trump both.
1) The State of New York is not the Des Moines Register.
2) The State of New York did not ever say anything remotely like "they only intended to apply this interpretation to Trump."
But now, all I can say is that all is fair in love, war, and litigation
Principles, shminciples! We want payback!
Yes.
Should gave thought of that before al the lawfare aimed at Trump.
Haha as if, we learned long ago that you guys are gonna do it either way. Bragg didn't take away your principles, you never had principles to begin with. Just look at Slimy Graham's famous promise!
“I want you to use my words against me. If there’s a Republican president in 2016 and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say Lindsey Graham said let’s let the next president, whoever it might be, make that nomination."
As Jason said, principles, shminciples!
(And of course, Graham found some weak-ass way to pretend to blame Democrats for forcing him to abandon his principles and vote for Barrett.)
Remember that part of this is an effort to intimidate others who might say something negative about Trump.
It is a serious failing of our legal system that this sort of abusive crap is allowed.
So stop allowing it. Severe sanctions, disbarment, for instance, for any attorney who signs on to this kind of crap would put at least a chunk of Trump's revenge agenda beyond his power.
More generally, Trump's corrupt gift of criminal immunity will enable fewer offenses in practice if he can't find toadies to do the immunized crimes.
So stop allowing it
I would if I could.
The S.Ct.'s decision saved this country from the democrats' corrupt lawfare abuses. And expect more retribution and justice in the coming year.
Nobody gives a crap about Selzer, not even democrats. But what discovery would reveal about the corruption of democrats and their allies involved in this, now that is something they do not want disclosed.
This lawsuit is unlikely to proceed to discovery. It should be promptly dismissed on motion at the pleading stage.
Say it does.
What will have been the cost, both financial and emotional, to the defendant?
More like relief, and more sighs of relief from her democrat scunge partners whose election inteference can remain hidden.
Deranged.
This suit is unlikely to extract either financial or emotional cost from anyone but the paper's insurer, which will cover the legal fees. Seltzer will have been made aware, if she wasn't already, that there's virtually no chance the litigation will survive past the pleadings. Like all vexatious litigants, Trump's sprays indiscriminately. This time he'll get none of the sadistic or pecuniary satisfaction he seeks.
I am not a Trumpist. This is a frivolous lawsuit. There are many such in the judicial system, and as courts rarely sanction them, there will be many more. When bad behavior leads to bad results, then there will be less bad behavior.
"frivolous lawsuit"
I'd say its a good faith effort to expand the law. Do the cases cited by EV deal with a narrow use of a general fraud law?
I've seen no sign the pleadings talk about expanding the law.
Its not a magic phrase, its the effect/intent.
How many cases in Iowa applying bog standard consumer protection statute to a political poll?
I don't expect even you think the purpose of this lawsuit is to expand Iowa consumer protection coverage.
This is the will to power win by ignoring principles stuff you at one point loudly defended.
Nowadays you're mostly denying and apologizing for that. I wonder if there's something behind that.
"Nowadays you're mostly denying and apologizing for that."
What are you babbling about?
Twas a time when you would have said 'Trump's abusing power. That's awesome - principles are for suckers. Own those libs!'
Here, instead you roll 'Trump's not abusing power, this is an attempt to change the law!'
And you've been explaining away stuff like that for a while.
As noted above, your explanation is laughable. Yet you are trying. For some reason.
"'Trump's abusing power. That's awesome - principles are for suckers. Own those libs!'"
I've made comments in that spirit on this very page. The expansion was a sarcastic response, strange a guy named Sarcastr0 doesn't get that.
No, I did not find "I'd say its a good faith effort to expand the law" to be clearly sarcastic at all.
Your continued embrace of amoral nihilism is noted.
FTR, it was obvious sarcasm to me.
"This is a frivolous lawsuit. There are many such in the judicial system, and as courts rarely sanction them, there will be many more. When bad behavior leads to bad results, then there will be less bad behavior."
Exactly. This Complaint, however, does appear to be sanctionable.
The Iowa Rules of Civil Procedure includes a provision for sanctions, Rule 1.413(1), which is similar to Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. One difference is that under the Federal rule, a court must not impose a monetary sanction against a represented party for violating Rule 11(b)(2) -- which requires certification (following counsel's inquiry reasonable under the circumstances) that the claims, defenses, and other legal contentions are warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law or for establishing new law.
A monetary sanction under the Iowa rule is not restricted in that manner, so Donald Trump may be on the hook for his counsel's misdeeds.
So Trump got lucky that a defendant removed the case on diversity grounds?
That removal may or may not hold up. The amount in controversy does not appear on the face of the complaint to exceed $75,000. Also, under 28 U.S.C. § 1441(b)(2) a civil action otherwise removable solely on the basis of diversity jurisdiction under §
1332(a) may not be removed if any of the parties in interest properly joined and served as defendants is a citizen of the State in which such action is brought.
This provision of § 1441(b)(2) is waivable by the plaintiff, Holbein v. TAW Enterprises, Inc., 983 F.3d 1039 (8th Cir. 2020) (en banc), but if Trump files a motion to remand within 30 days pursuant to § 1447(c), that motion should be granted.
Who has been served so far? I doubt anyone, yet. (I don't think the 8th circuit has weighed in on snap removal yet, but other districts allow it.)
This is discussed in the notice of removal.
Thank you for the link.
Thanks. Yes, it is, and directly answers my question.
Something Something Koch Something Something Open Boarders
How is this different from the lawsuit that then MA AG Maura Healey brought against Exxon?
Healey used a similar consumer protection statute and alleged that Exxon had defrauded MA residents who own Exxon stock by denying the existence of global warming.
That's political speech too, and unlike a poll which can (I hope) be proven to have violated accepted standards for polling, there is no way to prove that global warming is real.
Good point.
Trump’s lawsuit is every bit as well-founded and meritorious as Healy’s.
"In March (2022), ExxonMobil said it shouldn't have to face the case (accusing the company of misleading Massachusetts consumers and investors about climate change), because state law protects defendants from politically motivated lawsuits that wish to silence their views. But (in May 2022), the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled 7-0 that the law 'does not apply' to this particular case."
https://patch.com/massachusetts/boston/ma-supreme-court-pushes-exxonmobil-face-attorney-generals-lawsuit
Unfortunately, the link to the court decision in the article doesn't work.
The tobacco companies lost when they lied about tobacco's harm by concealing their own data. That is, they knew it was an outright lie which trumps Breyer's concern about suppressing truthful speech. Exxon might lose if they acted in the same manner. But, it would not be enough if Exxon's statements were false but Exxon believed them to be true.
And come to think of it, Selzer could also lose if she knew she was acting improperly in order to hurt Trump. But, it would not be enough if she felt her methodology and results were fine even if as a matter of fact (*) they were not (noting that her methodology is almost certainly correct).
(*) I'm not sure if pollster methodologies are a matter of fact.
Selzer got this poll wrong by 17 percentage points. So far she has given no explanation as to how she could be so wrong.
My general life experience is that stupidity accounts for 99% of wrong actions, while intentional wrongdoing accounts for only 1%.
IOW, you rarely lose by betting on the "stupid" explanation.
She is anything but stupid. Please read Nate Silver's article on outliers.
If she's not stupid, then the "mistake" may have been "deliberate".
Outliers? Sure. More than 4 standard deviations from the actual result...that's more than just an outlier.
You're just appealing to number big. Other than that, you treat polling like a deterministic black box.
That's not actually how polling is performed, though.
I did a quick 101, here.
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/12/18/trump-v-selzer-likely-going-nowhere/?comments=true#comment-10839385
Unless she either fabricated the results entirely — something it's pretty crazy to think — or changed her methodology special for this poll, there's no "explanation" to give. You understand that she was reporting what respondents said, not guessing at how the election would turn out, right? Purely by statistical chance, some poll results will be way off. Many pollsters will assume that an outlier poll is wrong and bury it, but while that makes the individual pollster look better, it makes the overall polling project less accurate.
It's not at all crazy to think she outright fabricated the results. An average survey has a margin of error of around 3-4%. To give Selzer benefit of the doubt, let's assume hers was 4%. That means her poll missed by more than 4 times the margin of error. Missing by more than the margin of error will happen in about 5% of polls. Missing by more than twice the margin of error will happen in about 0.25% of polls. Missing by more than four times the margin of error? Happens in about 0.000005% of polls. That is, assuming random error, you'd have to conduct around 200,000 polls to see a miss as bad as Selzer's. Given these huge numbers, it's a slight possibility she just had some statistical noise. But it's far far far more likely that such an enormous miss comes from some kind of systemic error. Are there innocent explanations for such errors? Of course! But it's certainly plausible that she missed this badly by outright fabricating the results. It's more plausible that she intentionally selected/altered/manipulated her survey panel to get the results she wanted to see. Either is a serious problem. More likely is that she just unintentionally sucked at polling in this case. But it's not even close to unfathomable she did something untoward.
Every election cycle, there are polls who are off by well beyond their margin of error.
Are they all fabricated?
You are treating polling like pure turnkey math. It is not that.
It's crazy to think so because there's no motive for her to do it. She says that she had already decided to retire beforehand, but this blew up her reputation… and for what possible gain? If one wanted to affect an election, one might skew a poll by 2 or 3 points. But 17 points? There's no way to come out of that looking good.
She ought to be able to find some explanation. Did she oversample some group? Make an arithmetic error? Wasn't she a little suspicious when her results were so contrary to other polls? She seems to be covering up something.
She has been clear. She, and people working for her, were spending countless hours after the election, trying to figure out how she could have gotten it so wrong. The poll results were seen as an outlier *immediately* after being released. Fox News emphasized exactly (and correctly, as it turned out!) why the results were not to be trusted.
But she was one of the most respected pollsters in America, based on a career of reporting her actual results. I think it's an idiotic argument to say, "This person who has been nonpartisan for decades and decades, will suddenly, deliberately, release knowingly false info a few days before an election."
It seems to me that it is evidence of her integrity that she DID release the poll results as she found them. Nate Silver wrote a lot about less ethical pollsters, who--when they get a poll that is an outlier--then fudge the numbers, to bring the results closer to the average.
And if anyone did want to skew a poll, who could say with assurance which way to skew it? There is a great argument that Trump is stupid to suppose a too-low poll near the election date did anything except increase the turnout among his base. For all anyone can prove, the poll was accurate when taken, but boosted Trump past Harris in Iowa when it landed in the news.
I haven't heard she was planning on retiring anyway. You really believe her announcing retirement before the error is a point in her favor for not fabricating the results? Giving a big middle finger on the way out the door seems more likely to me now.
A historically bad poll from a historically good pollster who isn't going to rely on accuracy for employment gives me pause.
I have no opinion on why it was such a horrendous poll. But her saying it was going to be her last poll doesn't inspire more confidence it was on the level.
Sure seems like you have an opinion...
"She says that she had already decided to retire beforehand, "
That actually gives further incentive. No need to keep the reputation. It's like the Pardon of the family member right before you leave...what are people going to do?
"but this blew up her reputation"
If she's retiring, then she doesn't care much about her reputation.
"But 17 points? There's no way to come out of that looking good."
It's not about the after results...it's about the swing BEFORE the election. People like winners. People are more likely to vote for people they think will be winners. Drop a poll showing your candidate will be a winner, ESPECIALLY if you have a reputation for being "right"....and it may be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Why on earth would she fabricate results?
The overwhelmingly most likely explanation is, as you say, methodological error - most likely, IMO, her sample was a bad one. Then, anything can happen.
Given the difficulty of getting a good random sample, an error is not improbable.
Another thing no one has mentioned is that the error might have helped Trump. Despite all the BS about deception, etc. the poll may have caused otherwise complacent Trump voters to be more likely to vote.
"IMO, her sample was a bad one. Then, anything can happen."
They have stats for that. Anything CAN happen. But the chances of THIS bad a result....approximately one in a million.
But the chances of THIS bad a result....approximately one in a million.
If the sample was good. Bernard is positing a bad sample. I tend to agree that's the most plausible explanation.
Imagine you go to your grocery store to buy a tomato and notice that of 10 that you randomly look at, 4 are bruised. 40%! Yet, the store claims that only 1% of the tomatoes it sells are bruised. How can that be???? Better sue the store for fraud!
That's the chances of one particular poll being that bad. But there are thousands of polls run every election cycle. The odds that someone wins the lottery are much (much much) higher than the odds that a specific lottery player does.
Give it up, David. You're trying to explain statistics to people who are math- and logic-illiterate.
I could understand this kind of miss on a unique scenario with no reference points but on something as widely and consistently evaluated as this? Not a chance. She should have had second thoughts and reviewed or corrected the poll and it's analysis if it was an honest mistake.
Again: if that's what the poll respondents said, then it wasn't a mistake at all.
Seltzer's methodology is a little unique among pollsters which could lead to either an extreme good faith outlier, or an intentionally manipulated result, or her normally very accurate results.
She norms her polls which is common practice, but rather than norm them to 2020 or 2022 (which weights the poll to match the exit poll democraphics of those elections), Seltzer weighs the polls based on her assessment of the current state of the Iowa electorate and what sectors are the most motivated.
She (either innocently or malevolently) assumed women especially older women were extremely motivated to turn out for Harris based on abortion, that would overwhelm less enthusiastic turnout from Trump voters.
So unless she left a smoking gun memo its impossible to prove, the poll data was real, her practice of weighing the poll by he assessment of the temperature is longstanding, where she went off the rails is weighing a specific sector much higher than it turned out was warranted.
I was not aware of her weighting methodology. Can you provide a citation?
Here is an article from back in June 2018 (well before her botched Trump poll) where she missed the result in a Democratic primary, with her talking about making a judgement call about "activated" cohorts of voters:
"That opportunity is available for any candidate in a primary. So I don’t want a method that would blind me to anything that might be happening out there, in terms of people cultivating people who have not primaried before, but suddenly, they’re activated, and they’re going to vote in a primary. And especially this year, when the read of the culture would be, there are people who are motivated that have not been motivated in past primaries, perhaps.
"Well, I think what you saw was sort of an electoral culture where there was activation. There were these marches. There were these events that were happening through Twitter. […] There was a certain arousal, if you will, in the electorate.”
"So my method is designed to not blind me to that. So it would be very difficult for me, and I think arrogant for me to say, you know what? I don’t think this seems like a particularly, you know, activated primary season. I’m going to ignore that. That would feel very arrogant to me."
https://www.bleedingheartland.com/2018/06/22/interview-ann-selzer-stands-by-sampling-method-for-primary-polls/
So she had misses before based on her reading of how "activated" segments of the electorate are, and she's also been good about getting her guesses validated.
She missed this time in thinking some women would be very motivated to vote for Harris and over weighted them.
Her quote was about polling everybody, not just those who voted in prior primaries or caucuses. It's got nothing to do with post-weighting by perceived excitiement. She doesn't dot that and didn't do that this time around. Where did you get the idea she speficially did so for women?
Except...she has said no such thing.
It would be nice if she came out and offered some explanation of where she went wrong.
You mean like this one?
Interesting. It appears the biggest factor was choosing not to recall weight. Had she done so, she would have reported Trump +6, which matches the average of other pollsters (all the polls missed Trump +13).
Pollsters who recall weighted did so for fear they might have oversampled Harris voters, and the proved to be correct. But, the odd thing is she was the most accurate in both 2016 and 2020 (the others underestimated Trump) without recall weighting.
My takeaways: 1) Selzer oversampled Harris voters by applying a methodology that made her the platinum standard in the past and 2) all pollsters missed something that goes beyond random sampling. And of course as a result, Trump's lawsuit is without merit.
Selzer of course ran more than one poll this cycle, and the others did not show the same issue. Per 538's database: in June she had Trump up +18 (albeit on Biden), and in September she had Trump up +4.
The Trump +4 poll might have been Trump +13 with recall weighting?
Even if that's true, it's a much smaller error than the final poll.
If she fabricated the poll results entirely, she would obviously have defrauded the Des Moines Register. But I still cannot see how Trump would have any claim against her.
The complaint argues Selzer tried to create "a narrative of inevitability for Democrat candidates, increases enthusiasm among Democrats, compels Republicans to divert campaign time and money to areas in which they are ahead, and deceives the public into believing that Democrat candidates are performing better than they really are." Perhaps that's enough to show Trump's electoral prospects were damaged.
Does the outcome (Trump wins, bigly in Iowa too) help his case that Sezler acted fraudently but hurt him in how he was damaged?
I know what the complaint frivolously argues. But the only concrete claim in there is "diverting money," and the poll was like 3 days before the election, so he didn't have time to divert anything there. Also, again: that wouldn't give him standing.
And I know you're not endorsing his argument, but it should be noted that the poll could just have easily created a narrative of complacency for Democrats and motivated Republicans to get out and vote.
As I wrote yesterday on the open thread, the private right of action which Trump seeks to invoke is created by Iowa Code § 714H.5:
The only claim of "actual damages" averred in Trump's Complaint is ¶70:
The Complaint nowhere explains how Trump in his individual capacity -- as distinct from his campaign organization -- sustained damages of any kind. (The campaign organization is not a “consumer”, which per § 714H.2(3) means a natural person or the person’s legal representative.)
Polling 101 is taught in grad schools. There are accepted practices and even moreso with statistics.
If Trump's claim is based on Selzer merely not following standard practice which she does not accept as being correct (no fraud involved), Eugene argues she is protected by the First Amendment even if not following standard practice can be held to be a falsehood.
Trump hilariously never follows standard polling practices. He alawys cites self-reporting online polls that have him winning in States like California and New York. The irony is thick.
The First Amendment angle of this lawsuit hadn't crossed my mind. Thanks for the post!
On the merits of "The Harris Poll was deceptive and misleading, unfair, and the result of concealment, suppression, and omission of material facts," the poll was almost certainly an honest outlier and publishing it was a good thing.
Basis of saying it was an HONEST outlier?
I don't know -- either way -- but hope that Trump has something resembling evidence
Did you read the article I linked to?
Did YOU read the article you linked to? It was published weeks before the poll in question, so it does not make the claim you cited it to support, and does not address the wisdom of publishing a seven-plus-sigma outlier in the direction of known systemic biases in similar polls.
(Edited to correct the sigma value; the margin of error is normally a 95% confidence, or two-sigma, bound rather than a one-sigma bound.)
This outlier was about 4.5 sigma, not 7. She had about 800 responses for a sigma of about 14. An error of 16%-points would be a change of about 64 responses going from Harris to Trump. That's still highly unlikey (3.4 in a million) and an embarassment for Selzer. She clearly had some systemic error beyond random sampling.
But all of that misses Silver's point. We don't know ahead of time if a poll is an outlier. You accept them all and throw them into the average, adjusting them based on their known bias and past performance.
I think that's a fair takeaway of Silver's point in general, but not in this case. Silver himself routinely throws away outliers if they're outlier-y enough. That could be above 2 sigma outlier, above 3 sigma outlier, etc. But whatever the cutoff, it will almost certainly be far below 4.5 sigma. We keep 2 sigma polls because there's a reasonable possibility that they're true. There is no reasonable chance that a 4.5 sigma poll is correct. As such, there are very few cases in which we'd be wrong to throw out such a poll.
Citation? For one thing, he did not throw away Selzer's poll. And again, you don't know this poll is off by 4.5 sigma until after the election. The average pre-election Iowa poll was about +6 Trump if you throw out Selzer. That would make Selzer about 2.5 sigma off from them.
No, he doesn't. The only polls he throws away are ones where he believes the pollster is fraudulent — that is, they didn't actually conduct the poll they claimed to have conducted. He weights polls differently based on house effects and historical accuracy, but he doesn't throw any others away.
"We don't know ahead of time if a poll is an outlier."
Silver explicitly recognized that we can identify some results as outliers before the actual election. If you can't identify them in advance, then there's no way to do the thing he was arguing against.
And Silver was talking about a much smaller kind of outlier, done by a high-reputation pollster, and whether aggregators should use outlier-ness as a reason to exclude a poll from their aggregate. That's a very different question than whether a pollster should take a hard look at such an extreme outlier before publishing the results. Your earlier assertion was that such publication was a good thing -- but the real world says that a previously well-regarded pollster who does that might resign in shame because they missed by so much.
Silver identifies them as outliers relative to the other polls and as I said above, Selzer's was 2.5 sigma off from the average non-Selzer Iowa poll. Given her record of being the best when she was 1.5 sigma off from other pollsters (2016 and 2020), a hard examination prior to the election does not seem right. She was right to publish it. To do otherwise would be herding.
This exactly. We should expect to see polls that miss by the margin of error occasionally, polls that miss by twice that 20x less often, and so forth. A poll missing by this much due to random error is essentially impossible. There must have been a huge systematic error. Such an error could be innocent or nefarious.
Note on the statistics: margin of error compared to standard error highly depends on what confidence interval is used. 95% confidence interval gives a z-score value of a little less than 2, so that margin of error is indeed about two sigma. However, 90% confidence interval would give a smaller z-score, 80% confidence interval would give a smaller z-score still, etc. Do we know which confidence interval Selzer uses?
Do you know how polling works? If you've even glanced at Nate Silver's writing, you'll know that no one's respondent set is exactly representative of who will vote in the upcoming election
So you need to weight the responses to make it so.
There's a lot of skill in that, but in the end there's no small amount of intuition and art - it is not a determinative science. So you're going to get plenty of good faith outliers.
DJK — Am I mistaken to suppose the mathematics you rely upon assume there exists a set of complete data, and that polls try to assess what is in that set by sampling it? If so, there is a fundamental error, not in the mathematics, but in your reliance. Because there is no invariable data set involved.
The complete set which exists even a few days before the election is never identical to the set upon which the election count was based. How much change occurred during the interval between polling dates and counting dates can even be systematically affected by publication of the poll.
You “hope” Trump has “something like” evidence? Oh, ye of little faith!
I’m disgusted and appalled that you would suggest he would ever, EVER file a lawsuit without absolute granite, bedrock evidence that Ann Selzer is a meanie pants who has it in for him. This is Donald J. Trump we’re talking about!
Savage
You can tell that this lawsuit is just a fundraising tactic rather than a legitimate one by the use of phrases like "the Harris Poll." Of course, there is a Harris Poll that exists — named after its founder, Lou Harris, an early pollster. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harris_Poll). But that's not what this lawsuit refers to, since this poll was conducted by Seltzer for the Des Moines Register. Calling it the "Harris Poll" throughout the suit is just a way to insinuate that this was done in coordination with the Kamala Harris campaign.
One problem I see with this theory is Selzer herself didn't even remotely acknowledge that it might be an outlier, and in fact did the opposite. This article, for example, directly quotes her as fervently backing the results as accurate:
Instead of even remotely acknowledging that her ten-points-or-so-away-from-the-pack effort just might be as comically wrong as it appeared, she chose to lean into her "I know Iowa" reputation and declared her results accurately reflected actual conditions on the ground.
That strident self-endorsement, along with her apparent lack of intellectual curiosity and questioning of her own assumptions over a result about 2-3X the MOE away from other contemporaneous polls, makes "honest mistake" a pretty tough sell in my book.
It makes no sense for her to lean into her poll if she was lying. She would be caught when the results came in as they did. She believed in her poll, as she did in the past when she was an outlier and was correct.
You're presuming that she didn't do this in exchange for a healthy "retirement bonus," to support a last-ditch effort at creating an enthusiasm wave. As others have said, she threw this steaming pile over her shoulder on the way out the door, and thus (assuming this lawsuit is dismissed as I'd imagine it will be) there was no actual cost to "being caught."
You MAGA types may not care about your reputations — it would certainly explain a lot if you didn't — but most people do. Ann Selzer's legacy is no longer "one of the most accurate pollster of her time," but "person who completely blew this poll."
And the conspiracy theory makes no sense. Setting aside that there's no reason to think this "enthusiasm wave" thing exists, and setting aside that it was far too late by the time the poll was released anyway, how the fuck is a single poll in Iowa — of all places — going to do that? If they had picked a battleground state like Pennsylvania, or a state that could be in play if Harris were winning big, like Florida, maybe. But an irrelevant state like Iowa?
Ah, right out of the chute with the lazy hip-pocket slur. Good thing you made up for it in the rest of your post with such amazing subst... oh wait a sec.
Glad to hear you're such close buds with her so you'd actually know if she considers herself to have a "legacy" or whether she gives a rat's patoot about it.
But in any event, I'm exceptionally comfortable there's some number of dollars above which you yourself would gleefully cast aside your "legacy" as a wage & hour attorney and general smartass internet commenter, pocket the cash, and head for Tahiti. Same with her, and probably an even lower number.
"Far too late" would be on November 6, after everyone voted. I know you're not so daft as to think that GOTV efforts stop several days before Election Day because it just doesn't matter any more.
If customarily R+8-12 Iowa is actually D+3, it's a) far from irrelevant, because it's b) a major-league harbinger of a major-league shift in the overall mindset of the voting populace. Again, I'm very comfortable you actually understand that.
Um, that's precisely why it's irrelevant. If there is a major shift in the overall mindset of the voting populace, then it will show up in lots and lots of places, not just Iowa. There is essentially zero chance that Iowa is the tipping point state in the election.
Oh, I completely agree. That's one of many kindergarten-level sanity checks Selzer chose to blow by to not only release a clearly (at best) botched poll but double/triple down on it reflecting a new state of play, without a shred of apparent concern for her supposed "legacy."
But, then, I wasn't responding to the new argument you hadn't yet made, but the polar opposite argument you actually did make in your prior post: that a one-off poll in a different state showing a major shift might have been effective.
Different states of course have different concentrations of voters with different core issues and values that matter to them, but here we're talking about a scenario where one and only one state sees a double-digit delta in one direction, while most other states hover or trend in the opposite direction.
I'd be fascinated to hear some details (preferably ones that are even vaguely plausible ex ante) of why you think that seeing the same delta in a one-off poll in a battleground state somehow would have engendered less skepticism than it did in Iowa.
According to Google, Iowa happens to be one of a minority of states that does not have an anti-SLAPP law.
That likely played into the decision to pick this fight.
One of the many many ways that the Democrats in Congress fell down on the job in the past few years was the failure to pass a federal anti-SLAPP law.
Quick! Let's review each others' positions from last year, and adopt them this year, and shit all over our own, now mouthed by those demons on the other side!
This is not the first time it has happened. Nor will it be the last.
This theory makes accurate predictions, because it is merely an observation of reality, repeated over and over.
Any proposed addendums or changes I will consider. I even have money prepared to buy some paper, if necessary.
Your ironic 'I'm so above the rest of you' schtick's been played out since the 80s at least.
Most of the polls are bullshit, like my Drackman Poll, Trump 48, Harris 47, others 5, sample of me, myself, and I, our Ferret, Pom, and Cat, within the margin of error, without the trouble of asking a few hundred people, so either this Selzer broad is a Crook, or her Polls the shittiest since Dewey (didn’t) beat Truman
I loved that poll!
I didn't believe it for a second. I mean Iowa? IOWA?
It was great for a laugh, but it really got the guffaws going when I saw the lefties absolutely latch on to it. The excitement it caused them, along with all of the the other gaslighting the MSM did, had them giddy as little school girls. Which only made it sweeter when they posted their meltdown videos, crying "how did this happen? I mean, everybody was saying Kamalalalala was going to crush it!".
You'd think this would make these lefties much more critical of the MSM. But you'd be wrong. The left loves getting lied to, apparently. It does make for some great entertainment value.
Should Trump sue for it? Sure, why not? The worst that can happen is it gets thrown out. Big deal.
Memories of “how did Nixon/Reagan/Trump win? nobody I know voted for them!”
Some of the best YouTube videos out there right now are the ones showing the MSM panels talking on election day. Trump's campaign is stumbling! The last 2 weeks haven't been good for Trump! Puerto Ricans are FURIOUS!. LOL!
None of those things were true. They don't do reporting. They do dreamcasting. They just don't do it well. Conservatives aren't the victims of the lies the MSM "reports". The libs are. And I'm fine with that.
Memories of “how did Nixon/Reagan/Trump win? nobody I know voted for them!”
Uh... you guys, did you already forget what happened when Biden won? Making fun of sad Democrats is pretty tone-deaf to say the very least.
That’s because Biden didn’t win, but rather lost in a fifty state landslide. But because Chinese satellites activated ballot harvesters which caused dead people to vote on fraudulent rice paper ballots delivered by mules the 2020 *Presidential* election (Congressional results where Republicans did well were fine) was stolen in a rigged fraud.
Republicans were extremely logical and rational at all times in discussing this.
Heh. Took me a second to realize you were Poe's Lawing it. But since you mention mules, did you happen to notice that Dinesh D'Souza completely retracted the whole 2000 Mules thing?
Yeah, that did need a winky emoji or sarcasm font. Republican claims about the 2020 election are parody-proof since it’s impossible to say anything actually stupider.
I don’t really know anything about D’Souza’s claims, but it sounds like by alleging specific bad acts by specific people that that he knew were BS he may have crossed the line.
With all the people who claimed in 1974 they had voted for McGovern, he should have demanded a recount.
"Sure, why not? The worst that can happen is it gets thrown out. Big deal."
Agreed. Trump just got a settlement and "regrets" semi-apology from ABC.
Maybe he gets one from the newspaper.
The worst — well, best, actually — that can happen is that he and/or his lawyers get sanctioned as happened in his frivolous lawsuit against Hillary Clinton and dozens of other figures, and that his lawyers get disbarred, as has happened to several lawyers working on his behalf.
They don't appear to be worried about that.
Of course, that could be because they don't have a smart guy like you on their team.
Or not.
That dice is getting rolled. Exciting stuff!
Selzer did her professional analysis and as a result ended up with a result Trump didn't like.
She wasn't under his control, so he sued.
Any federal employee who does his/her professional analysis and ends up with a result he doesn't like, will get fired.
There has been recent agitation for Iowa to pass an anti-SLAPP law. If Iowa had a broad anti-SLAPP law Trump would be on the hook for attorney's fees. A narrow law, protecting statements intended to influence government policy, wouldn't apply to this case.
The point of the lawsuit is not to get a trial. It's to get discovery and cause some heartburn to the Des Moines Register, which has long been a bastion of progressive politics. If the lawsuit survives a motion to dismiss, Trump's lawyers will have a field day digging into the Register and Ann Selzer's files, which will undoubtedly get leaked.
Iowa's consumer fraud statute is quite broad, as is its notice pleading regime. I could see this getting past a motion to dismiss, even with the 1A being raised.
The point is not to get discovery, because nobody believes that there are secret communiques between Selzer, DMR, and the Harris campaign in which they discuss publishing a fraudulent poll to hurt Trump. The point is simply to harass Trump's enemies and impose litigation costs on them. And more importantly, to signal to Trump's other enemies that he's going to be coming after them if they don't bend the knee.
"and impose litigation costs on them. "
Much like the left has been doing with Trump and anyone in his orbit?
And cheered on by Nieporent all the way.
Setting aside the vague reference to "the left," as if that were an organization that could take action, I don't know what you're referencing. The only arguably legally ridiculous lawsuits I can think of against Trump were the ones about the emoluments clause. (I'm sure there's something else that didn't leap to mind, but the most prominent suits/prosecutions were all about obvious wrongdoing by Trump.)
"...and anyone in his orbit?"
…such as?
No one has been suing Trump for his lies. But perhaps we ought to start.
But if they actually found something, that really would be hitting the political jackpot, no? Sure, it's unlikely they would find any kind of smoking gun to prove a fraudulent poll. What's far more likely is they would find evidence of Selzer and/or the Register's incompetence. This poll wasn't just an outlier; it was grossly, horribly wrong, to the tune of 16 percentage points. Proving that Ann Selzer and the Des Moines Register are incompetent would have its own salutary effects as far as Trump is concerned. And if the lawsuit serves to intimidate Trump's other enemies, as far as Trump is concerned, so much the better.
You're acting like behaving unethically is some cunning game theory move.
Lawsuits are not fishing expeditions.
We all know why Trump did this. Abuse of the system is abuse of the system. It's not clever, it's just thuggish.
"We all know..."
Source?
Spoken like a principled lawyer!
Which Trump is not. He understands the legal system the way his idol Roy Cohn did, essentially as a bare-knuckled brawl, and he behaves accordingly. Lawsuits can be wonderful fishing expeditions, if you know what you're doing and don't care all that much about professional ethical constraints. And as we all know, litigants get away with judicial shennaigans all the time. Just ask Alvin Bragg, Letitia James, and Fani Willis for example.
Sorry, I didn't realize you where a shitheal seeking to normalize Trump's abuse of power.
Here is a clue - *everyone* here admits Trump is abusing power. The other folks you mentioned? Only MAGA and some terminal bothsiders think they abused power.
Hell, there was a conviction. Hardly a fishing expedition!
No, I'm merely explaining what I believe this lawsuit to be about. I'm not condoning what Trump is doing. If you believe that's "normalizing" Trump's behavior, well, I can't help you.
As for the conviction, let's take this up again after the appeal is done. (Assuming it doesn't get dismissed before then.)
And skip the personal abuse, please.
"And skip the personal abuse, please."
Have you read sarcasto before?
This is you, normalizing Trump's behavior: "Lawsuits can be wonderful fishing expeditions, if you know what you're doing and don't care all that much about professional ethical constraints. And as we all know, litigants get away with judicial shennaigans all the time. Just ask Alvin Bragg, Letitia James, and Fani Willis for example."
This isn't normal, and your comparison is tendentious.
You're assuming that he doesn't already know what he is looking for. I would not be overly surprised if he does, or at least has a very strong suspicion of what he is looking for.
There are established principles and standards of surveying, not quite to the extent of accounting but surveying is something that is taught in grad schools. She may have been very sloppy or she may have maliciously done something and a Trump victory would be in the embarrassment that coming out would cause.
Religious delusions about a political figure's omniscience can stem from a self-centered tribalism projected onto the figure alongside a desire for a logical universe that makes sense.
Individuals promulgating such rot should seek medical help before they become the town fool of a political message board.
Gaslighto -- It is not uncommon for minions to seek favors from the victor -- and leaking info is a good way of doing that.
You're still speculating your way into Trump having secret insider knowledge.
Your Trump fan fiction sucks. No one likes a Marty Stu.
"Iowa's consumer fraud statute is quite broad, as is its notice pleading regime. I could see this getting past a motion to dismiss, even with the 1A being raised."
On what theory would application of the private right of action for damages in Iowa's consumer fraud statute to the facts averred in Trump's complaint not be unconstitutional under the First Amendment?
What is the difference between a private right of action and a state civil suit when you are talking Constitutional protections?
"What is the difference between a private right of action and a state civil suit when you are talking Constitutional protections?"
I'm not sure that there is a meaningful difference. A private right of action seeking money damages based on a defendant's alleged violation of a state statute is one variety of a state civil suit.
The First Amendment forbids an award of tort damages for speech or publication on matters of public concern, which is protected by the First Amendment. Indeed, "speech on public issues occupies the highest rung of the hierarchy of First Amendment values, and is entitled to special protection." Snyder v. Phelps, 562 U.S. 443, 452 (2011), quoting Connick v. Myers, 461 U.S. 138, 145 (1983). In Snyder SCOTUS overturned a jury award for intentional infliction of emotional distress, intrusion upon seclusion, and civil conspiracy claims based on members of the Westboro Baptist Church picketing the funeral of a deceased service member while carrying signs bearing hateful messages.
IANAL! This type of lawsuit causes those of us who aren't "inside" the justice system not to trust the courts or lawyers. In this case, a wealthy person can spend a minuscule sum, probably tax-deductible as a business expense, to cause someone else to spend serious money to defend themselves against utter nonsense. Yes, a judge <> award some relief from the fees, but the target gets their life disrupted, has to put out real cash for representation, and runs a risk that their financial situation will be decimated. In other words, the defendant loses, regardless of the outcome. This isn't a justice system; it's a rich kids way of punishing whoever annoys them.
Oh no, that's not how it is. You think Trump is spending even a miniscule amount of his own money? Silly. No, this imis mounted and funded by his campaign fund, which will also be liable for any sanctions. He's doing this entirely with other people's money that they donated for a different purpose.
Whether or not he can use campaign funds to pay sanctions, the campaign would not be liable for them, since it isn't a party to the case.
I think it's a mistake to assume this case is the same as Trump v CBS. In this case the publishing the poll results was *literally* publishing that "Trump has a bad reputation among Iowa voters". If the poll results were false; i.e., if it is not true that among Iowa voters Trump has a bad reputation; then this is pretty clear-cut defamation.
Will a court buy this argument? No, not in a million years, because of the shadow precedent that Trump (and politicians in general) are libel-proof. In that sense, this is a frivolous lawsuit. You might as well ask a court to do something with the 9th Amendment or something stupid like that.
None of that is true. "47% of Iowa voters plan to vote for Harris; 44% plan to vote for Trump" — even if knowingly false — is not defamation. It is *literally* not publishing that "Trump has a bad reputation among Iowa voters," but even if it were, that wouldn't be defamatory.
David Nieporent is right on this, as a matter of defamation law. And this is likely why Trump didn't even bring a defamation claim here.
What about actual malice?
Say an email that "we need to rig this poll to harm Trump" and a response of "this is how we will do it", etc.
That's not what actual malice means.
But also you should have real facts if you're going to bring a lawsuit, not made up ones.
Well, it kind of is what actual malice means: knowing falsehood. Not whether it was motivated by animus, of course, but Dr. Ed's fake email quotes would establish that they knew it was untrue.
'Actual malice' only comes into play if it's defamatory, which — as we've already established — it isn't.
Where are the Sacred Democracy Defenders sacredly defending our democracy?
This poll was clearly designed to influence voters, corruptly. That's illegal election misinformation and she should be imprisoned.
Clearly!
It's like you live in a temporal vacuum and have zero recollection of the hype and timing of the poll and the coordination with the campaign.
"This poll was clearly designed to influence voters, corruptly. That's illegal election misinformation and she should be imprisoned."
Once again, you demonstrate that you represent a perspicacity sink; a virtual black hole where insight and clear thinking go to die.
How about all the other bad pollsters? They all, except for Rasmussen, underestimated Trump for three straight elections. Are they all too stupid to learn from their mistakes? Did they all have bad luck? It appears that they had a bias against Trump.
Like Daniel Penny, the lawsuit is the punishment. Now the register and she will have to spend big bucks on fancy lawyers.
1) Penny wasn't sued.
2) DMR, at least, will have insurance to pay its legal fees. Don't know about Selzer. But Trump will end up paying them because the suit is sanctionably frivolous.
I'm not sure it's likely to be seen as so frivolous as to call for Rule 11 sanctions; the bar for that is very high.
But I agree that this will almost certainly be covered by the Register's insurance, and I expect that Selzer will either be covered by that insurance policy or will have her own professional liability insurance that will cover that.
Iowa isn't an anti-SLAPP state, which is a shame. But what does it take to be considered frivolous (under Rule 11, or otherwise)?
The notion that you can sue a newspaper for publishing a poll you don't agree with is asinine. If that doesn't count as frivolous sounds like almost nothing would count.
Isn't this being brought under a consumer protection law?
Wouldn't the standard of what is frivolous thus be relative to consumer protection law and not libel law?
Ummm, so your assumption is that a state consumer protection law overrides the 1st Amendment, but libel law doesn't? Per EV's OP:
"I'm not sure it's likely to be seen as so frivolous as to call for Rule 11 sanctions; the bar for that is very high."
It beggars belief to conclude that this lawsuit is not interposed for any improper purpose. Donald Trump has a long and sordid history of using the courts to harass his critics and opponents. Part of that history is recited in Judge Donald Middlebrooks's order imposing just shy of $1 million in sanctions against Trump and his counsel Alina Habba in the matter of Trump v. Clinton, et al., in the Southern District of Florida: https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Trump-v-clinton-order-sanctions-usdc-southern-florida.pdf
As Antonio observed in Shakespeare's The Tempest, Act 2, Scene 1, what's past is prologue.
Deferring to your far broader experience, I'm not so sure it isn't...fact pattern seems to match pretty closely what Trump and attorney Alina Habba are paying a million dollars in sanctions for filing “...a lawsuit that should never have been filed, which was completely frivolous, both factually and legally, and which was brought in bad faith for an improper purpose"
Besides the failed criminal case against Penny, there is also a civil lawsuit.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/jordan-neely-father-suing-daniel-penny/6042538/
Prof. Volokh, how does your analysis and conclusion on this case square with Douglass Mackey's conviction in U.S. v. Mackey?
"Eastern District of New York Convicts Internet Meme Creator for Publishing False Voting Information."
U.S. v. Mackey was obviously wrongly decided. Full Stop.
I am expecting Mackey to get a pardon, in about a month.
Different law (Iowa consumer fraud law is not 18 U.S.C. § 241) and different facts (polls are not memes)
What's different about a poll and a meme that would make one disinformation lawful, while the other illegal?
I'm sure you can't tell the difference.
[moved to a reply to EV comment three hours ago]
NY judge Merchan quoted that in holding that the 34 felony counts should stand, and not be appealable for 4 years.
I'm of the opinion that Judge Merchan ought to be drafted and sent to Paris Island...
"NY judge Merchan quoted that in holding that the 34 felony counts should stand, and not be appealable for 4 years."
Roger S, what ruling by Justice Merchan do you refer to here? He has ruled that Donald Trump is not entitled to dismissal of the indictment based on immunity. https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFs/press/PDFs/CPL330.30Dec.pdf I am unaware of his having ruled yet on any stay of proceedings. If he pronounces sentence and enters judgment, I don't know why that would not be immediately appealable to the Appellate Division.
Trump cannot be incarcerated until he leaves office as president, but a stay in execution of the judgment while Trump remains in office would avoid that problem.
Please link to any order or ruling which you contend supports your claim that the court has ruled that the judgment will not be appealable for 4 years.
If Merchan pronounces a sentence, then Trump can appeal. So far, Merchan has refused to do that. It appears that Merchan wants to delay sentencing for 4 years, so that Trump cannot appeal.
So you can't identify any order or ruling by Merchan indicating that the judgment will not be appealable for 4 years. Accordingly, you merely speculate as to what the judge wants to do.
I like the use of "refused" here, as if Trump said, "please sentence me" and Merchan said "No, I'm not going to do that." In reality, Trump has been trying every trick in the book to stall and delay and prevent sentencing.
EV notes:
I agree, with some reservations about the word "other".
Headlines and leads for newspaper articles often serve both as product and as advertising for the product, being displayed as teasers to convince consumers to buy or subscribe. If the teaser misrepresented the rest of the content I think that could well qualify as consumer fraud.
Of course, that isn't what's happening here. The claimed misrepresentations didn't misrepresent the newspaper so weren't of facts material "in connection with the advertisement, sale, or lease of consumer merchandise".
Glad to see Selzer's chickens are coming home to roost. Does anybody with a background in statistics believe it's possible her poll was legitimate?
I have that background and believe her poll was honestly conducted and reported.
LOL. It makes no difference. You can't sue someone just because you disagree with their poll.
Who is the idiot that authorized this lawsuit to be filed? What a waste of money!
Of course we all know how you would read this, But it surely looks an injustice and if your complaint is that he needed a less pointed complaint when reaching out to the Court, that makes no sense to me. Get the facts out and if there was knowing mis-statement of polls, get their ass.
I still remember the poll for Hillary just before the election, that said she was 8-9 points up. Get their ass
I don't remember the case but Justice Douglas said that when a private company offers a public service it becomes liable to infringements of the common good and prosecutable where it might not be were it not putting itself forward as a public service.
Get their ass