Tuesday Media Recommendations: Science Fiction or Fantasy TV Shows

Post your recommendations in the comments; other weeks, there'll be other posts for other topics and other formats.

Comments

[AmosArch]

Fantasy: MSNBC, CNN

Purge Series: Stupid but better than the later movies other than when it tries to give a deep message. Since it has the time to go into the inner workings of the purge. Its still nonsensical but still a fun trip.

Sci Fi:
Tron Legacy: Good art

Blake's 7: Not a very good show in its own right. Its mostly fun for how inadvertently dumb it is in some ways. Basically a darker cross between Star Trek/Millennium Falcon bits of star wars where the bad guys are winning because all the characters are useless in various ways. You have an incompetent leader who is only good at getting his underlings killed, a computer hacker second in command who is an even worse leader, a strong man who has a brain implant that prevents him from using his strength. A psychic whose powers contribute nothing except attracting monsters that possess her. A buffonish thief who's only talent in this sci fi setting is picking conventional locks, and a computer than mostly just sits around and insults everybody.

Many of the more modern shows seem to 1. just be competitions on how many strong masculine women, POC, and sexual minorities they can fit on screen within the allotted time period or 2. reboots of classic franchises and stories where they compete to see how many character roles they can gender, race, or orientation flip from the original source material rather than actually telling a good sci fi story. So I just watch Science Fact now in the form of documentaries and SpaceX launches.

[Brett Bellmore]

We rarely watch TV, but my son recently introduced us to an interesting show, "The Edge of Sleep", streaming on Amazon.

The premise is that, suddenly, everybody sleeping, or who falls asleep, dies, and the people awake must desperately search for an explanation, because they can only go so long without sleeping, even with the aid of drugs.

[NvEric]

... and the inane debate on defining Science Fiction and Fantasy ...

[AmosArch]

I got into an argument with some people by stating that Star Trek was as fantastical as Star Wars. They on the other hand considered Star Trek sci fi while Star Wars was fantasy. In a way I consider Star Trek more fantasy than some even some fantasy. At least Lord of the Rings had a semi plausible characters and society given the history and physics of Arda. No way would anything resembling Star Trek society actually exist if we really did have access to teleportation, replicators, FTL etc.

[Sarcastr0]

No way would anything resembling Star Trek society actually exist if we really did have access to teleportation, replicators, FTL etc.

Not with that attitude!
We contain multitudes, including the angels of our better nature. Aspirational sci fi is still sci fi.

Besides, if you want dark and realistic Trek there's always DS9!

[Brett Bellmore]

We really don't know much of what the larger society looked like in the original Star Trek series, because the story revolved around the adventures of the crew of a military exploration vessel that hardly ever interacted with Federation civilians. Might as well try to extrapolate life in America from the daily life of people on a nuclear aircraft carrier, which is the closest modern analog to the Enterprise.

You get glimpses of the actual Federation in episodes like "Mudd's Women", "Devil in the Dark", or "The Trouble with Tribbles"; And it's clear that, contrary to later retroconning, the Federation actually does have a normal capitalist economy with money and all that. It's NOT a post-scarcity utopia.

Of course, that was before Star Trek was successful enough that Roddenberry could indulge his obsessions.

[Krayt]

Capitalism invents teleporters and replicators, which replicate themselves.

Plenty of everything for everyone!

Start looking down on people of the past with backwards capitalism, those backwards, brutish souls. >:(

Oddly, sounds like a reasonable prediction.

[Brett Bellmore]

In TOS, it's made clear that replicators aren't actually cost effective under normal circumstances; They work out in the Enterprise only because the engines provide essentially unlimited energy to drive them, and they solve some serious logistics problems on a ship which could potentially go years without resupply. But they're not general purpose enough to manufacture everything the ship needs, and only star ships deal in the sorts of energy where a replicator wouldn't seem extravagant.

Even in a society with replicators, you'd still have scarcity, because you have to limit energy use to avoid boiling oceans, and if everybody's got a super-yacht, the oceans get so crowded they're bumping up against each other. Also, they apparently can't do transmutation, or if they can, not affordably.

Clearly even TNG isn't really post-scarcity. (They even had to have money, the "gold pressed lantinum".) You're seeing the lives of the nomenklatura, who spout the party line, I think. Not ordinary people.

Well, that's my head canon, anyway.

[Dr. Ed 2]

"you have to limit energy use to avoid boiling oceans"

No you wouldn't. Heat is energy -- all you would have to do is remove said unwanted energy from the system. Convert it into light and beam it into space. In theory, you could use the energy to unfuse Helium back into Hydrogen. Or *use* this unwanted heat energy to do something.

We don't have the technology to do this, but heat is energy that (in theory) can be converted into other forms of energy. 60 years ago we didn't know we could convert light into electricity, who knows what we will know in the year 2084...

[Krayt]

Now that I think about it, post-scarcity would also negate the rhetorical flourish used by the power mongers to gain power by class warfare jealousy rhetoric. No shortage, no point promising to conk those evil folks over the head, take their stuff, and give it to you.

And no need for that power to enwealthen yourself as your spouse suddenly manifests a Gregory House level investment savant talent, like Superman's kid shoving a piano when mommy Lois is threatened.

Official: Do you swear or affirm to uphold the Constitution 'n stuff?
Pol: I do!
Official: Congratulations, Mr. Or Ms. Whatevs!
Whatev Spouse: Honey, I feel strange. I'm starting to sparkle!
Pol: WTF! (Whispers to spouse, don't worry!)
Whateg Spouse: Bbbbb fuh fih fuh there's 12 IPOs down at this address!

It was amazing that with all the high falutin' talk, there were still plenty of power hungry if not outright mad shits in the control structures.

[Krayt]

Point being the future looking down on a brutish capitalist past (why isn't that seen as a bright spot, compared to the dog non-capitalist economies again?) may be a virtue signal that only arises by current writers imagining future thoughts according to their current received wisdom.

No need and want in the future, no looking down on it. More likely they'll look at the whole ball of past wax, sigh, and say, eh, it wss what it was, I'm just glad I was born now.

[Gorbag]

Which is why ST isn't really SF: it doesn't follow the inventions of teleporters and replicators to their logical conclusions: Everyone has their own starship (why serve when you can be the captain?), and anyone gets in your way you teleport a photon torpedo into their engineering deck.

We need more authors like Larry Niven ("Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex") to sort these sorts of things out.

[Malika the Maiz]

I certainly don’t think SF has to follow the technology in it to a logical conclusion. Sometimes it’s just to get you somewhere interesting.

[Bob from Ohio]

"ST isn't really SF"

No True SciFi!

Space ships, killing energy weapons, teleportation, multiple talking species. Nope, not science fiction, nope.

[Sarcastr0]

And it's clear that, contrary to later retroconning, the Federation actually does have a normal capitalist economy with money and all that.

I'm not going to get into headcannon wars with you, but that's explicitly not the setting Gene Roddenberry as pitched and as aired from the beginning. Remember the 1960s was a time of sincere technological utopianism all over sci-fi.

Each person's Trek is their own, and if you need American style capitalism in your aspirational sci-fi you do you. But don't insist I join you.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Maybe the next version will have a planet full of bland communist office buildings filled with midwit bureaucrats making every decision for the Enterprise by committee! They'll even have committees to discuss committee formation! Everything centrally planned down to the second! It will be a Saracstrian Paradis0!

[Brett Bellmore]

You had the script writers fighting with Roddenberry, because his ideological obsessions were getting in the way of the plot. I'm describing what actually got produced in TOS, not what Roddenberry would have done if he'd had full creative control. If he'd had full creative control it would have been a disaster

There were people engaged in trade for profit, there were people doing dangerous jobs and getting paid well for doing them, this shows up in the series at multiple points.

Like I said, the Enterprise was a military exploration vessel, not representative of the civilian federation.

[Sarcastr0]

Oh sure, and Roddenberry wanted a vastly hornier Trek than happened.

No show is going to be straight along the beam of any one thing; you can cherry pick anything you want to form your headcannon. Plenty back in the day decided Spock and Kirk are doin' it.

Trek's aspirational post-scarcity seems baseline to the setting to me - it's what makes it not your average space show.
As I said, trying to argue other people into your Trek seems a silly waste of time.

"The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."

[Dr. Ed 2]

The original Star Trek started in 1966, at the height of the Cold War. There is no way that a broadcast network back then would have permitted anything other than patriotic American fare -- and the Klingons were a combination between the Soviets and the Japanese whom we had defeated only 21 years earlier. (Starting with the movie in 1979 and larger makeup budgets, the Klingons started looking like they do today.)

I look at it as a submarine -- I don't believe that there is any money aboard the boat. The sailors are being paid, the money credited to their checking accounts, and when they return there will be an adjustment of anything they purchased from the ship's stores, but there is no cash needed. Food, lodging, clothing and everything else is provided by the USN.

Hence when the Enterprise arrived back at Earth 5 years later, everyone would get paid. But until then, as everything is provided, there is no need for money.

[Riva]

You do understand that the conception of the “transporter” was not the result of sincere technological utopianism? They just couldn’t afford the cost of the special effects for ship landings every episode.

[Sarcastr0]

The technological utopianism of Trek, and Asimov, isn't about a single technology, it's about how technology will set us free of worldly needs and make human nature better.

It's not how we roll these days (see the I Robot movie for instance) but it's important background if you want to think about Trek in a meta-sense.

And transporters are an iconic part of the setting regardless of how it came about in the writers' room.

[Brett Bellmore]

"it's about how technology will set us free of worldly needs and make human nature better."

I'm not really sure that setting us free of worldly needs actually makes us better, rather than worse. The Eloi were set free of worldly needs, after all, and The Humanoids was not an optimistic story.

[Sarcastr0]

You want pick a fight with technological utopianism, go ahead. It's basically dead as a worldview these days.

It does add some unique flavor to Trek as a setting.

[Riva]

A lot of the original Star Trek was a critique of “technological utopianism.” Capt. Kirk actually went out of his way to challenge and usually beat technology.

[Sarcastr0]

Eh, beating up omniscient computers with our badass human pluck is not going against technological utopianism any more than having transporters is technological utopianism.

Star Trek depicts a utopia enabled by technology. Full stop. Doesn't mean there is no danger or want; doesn't mean all technology is deployed helpfully. But that's the thesis of Trek.

Roddenberry famously forbade the idea of drug addicts in his future - we had as a society advanced beyond whatever drove that. Harlan Ellison (my favorite sci-fi author) disagreed. Vehemently. Though Ellison did everything vehemently so that may not be indicative of much.
From what we've learned since then about addiction mechanisms and the fundamental drive to seek altered states, seems an unlikely future. But why not hope for that?

[Riva]

Well I certainly disagree that Star Trek represented a Utopia. If it did, it would be uninteresting as not at all related to contemporary society. In fact, quite a few episodes involved rejecting technological utopias. And, just so you know, there certainly were drug addicts in the original series.

[Sarcastr0]

Star Trek, TOS was largely about external threats to it's pretty utopian UFP.

The utopias that it rejects are almost all the false and shallow happiness of the heroin addict. The Federation was the utopia of fulfillment.
The only exception I can think of off hand is "This Side of Paradise' but even there the utopia is imposed, not consensual.

[Riva]

Imposed or consensual, “utopias” were not celebrated. They were rejected. And not all utopias ultimately rejected were imposed, at least not in the original series. Don’t know where you’re getting the idea that Star Trek presented a “utopian” world, but it’s not from the original show.

[Sarcastr0]

“utopias” were not celebrated. They were rejected.

They're not real utopias, as you see - each has a flaw (generally regarding human agency).

By contrast, UFP was a utopia, as utopia was projected in the 1960s. Egalitarian, full of agency, Diversity (IDIC), 1960s version of peaceful, etc.

[Riva]

Not really true, many government officials in Star Trek were characterized as officious bureaucratic a-holes, their policies were occasionally held up for ridicule, and they often encountered other societies contemptuous of their system.

As for IDIC, have you seen a Vulcan wedding ceremony? They have nothing to brag about.

[Sarcastr0]

The evil admiral syndrome only came up in TNG. And if you want to expand the discussion of technological utopianism to TNG...that will not go well for you.

Pon Far has nothing to do with IDIC.
It is also incredibly silly/hawt, and everyone loves it.

[Riva]

You’re ignoring the ceremonial Vulcan fight to the death. Now, no fault divorce is not free from criticisms, but fights to the death seem a bit much.

[WuzYoungOnceToo]

many government officials in Star Trek were characterized as officious bureaucratic a-holes, their policies were occasionally held up for ridicule

Case in point...

Nilz Baris, Federation Undersecretary of Agricultural Affairs: "Captain Kirk, I consider your security measures a disgrace. In my opinion, you have taken this entire, very important project far too lightly."

Kirk: "On the contrary, sir. I think of this project as very important. It is YOU I take lightly."

~The Trouble with Tribbles

[Frank Drackman]

Maybe it's because Star Trek is what's called "Fiction" and not what's called a "Documentary" Next you'll be telling me that Jed Clampett was an idiot for putting his $25 million in the Commerce Bank of Beverly Hills (actually not a bad move, FDIC, at 4% you'd get a million a year, real money in 1965)

Frank "I'd ask Jeannie to make out with her evil twin sister"

[Riva]

Who?

[grb]

Frank Drackman : "Next you'll be telling me that Jed Clampett was an idiot for putting his $25 million in the Commerce Bank of Beverly Hills (actually not a bad move.....)"

Two Points:

1. On topic, I've bought the original series though at least a third of the shows are too bad to be watchable. When it was good, however, it was very good. This was my era growing up; the first time I ever saw color TV was a Trek episode (Kirk as Native American - one of the worse). But I'm still amazed at the utopian optimism of the series given its place in time. Plus the bright Day-Glo colors were highly cool.

2.Forget Jed Clampett. Donald Trump was an idiot for not putting those hundreds of millions Daddy funneled into his pocket into the Commerce Bank of Beverly Hills (or similar establishment). DJT's insistence on pretending he was/is a competent businessman cost himself, his father, and his family a small fortune in wasted money.

[Brett Bellmore]

2. As I recall, it's been demonstrated that if Trump had put his inheritance in an index fund and left it untouched, he'd have ended up about as wealthy. This doesn't establish that he's a lousy businessman, because while actively managing his money, it grew while providing enough excess to allow him to live a lavish lifestyle.

Which required an actual rate of return substantially better than the market...

[Nelson]

“ As I recall, it's been demonstrated that if Trump had put his inheritance in an index fund and left it untouched, he'd have ended up about as wealthy”

Nope. If he had put his entire inheritance into bonds, it would have outperformed his actual returns. An index fund would have made him wealthier by multiples. Donald Trump is a terrible businessman, but a savant-level self-promoter. Basically a social media influencer decades before the internet was born.

[Brett Bellmore]

Again, I say: If he'd put his inheritance into bonds, and left them untouched, that was true. But then how would he have financed his lavish lifestyle?

[Dr. Ed 2]

We had a B&W TV, but visiting my uncle, they had a color TV. And we watched Star Trek and the adults were commenting about how it was a more advanced society and I asked "well, why do they have torches in the hallway for lights?"

My cousin responded "well, they are atomic torches."

How things have changed -- and an uncontained fission reaction, multiple uncontained fission reactions -- good Lord....

[Brett Bellmore]

You rarely see "hard" SF on TV or in the movies these days, because being limited to what physics says is possible is very plot limiting.

The whole idea of FTL travel is just a plot convenience, after all, invented so that protagonists could visit multiple star systems in a human lifespan. The 'transporter' on Star Trek existed just so that they could drop in on planets without consuming a bunch of time landing and taking off.

And the series just got worse and worse in terms of bafflegarb as it went on, didn't even bother maintaining continuity, really. I'll excuse the weird sociology because that's not really a science...

I enjoy space opera, I really do, but I know it's just a specialized genre of fantasy.

I'd love to see a space SF movie that stuck to physics as we know it. There's a lot of potential for that in some of Heinlein's 'juveniles', like The Rolling Stones. (You'd doubtless have to change the title...)

[Sarcastr0]

The Expanse does good hard sci-fi space opera. Slightly magical aliens, but baseline it's all inertia and chemical drives.

I don't think the existence of FTL means a work cannot be hard sci-fi. After all, the fi bit means you're going to be hand-waiving something.

[SRG2]

If the handwaving is done well, FTL is fine in hard SF.

[Brett Bellmore]

I'm fine with reading science fantasy, it can be enjoyable. But I do like an occasional genuine hard SF story, such as Robert Forward wrote, where the author is very careful not to introduce anything contrary to known physics.

In Avatar, the handwaving was mostly the communications between the bodies and the avatars, they actually used a realistic design for a non-FTL starship. I really appreciated the way you could actually SEE in the scenery that there was a room temperature superconductor on that planet.

[Krayt]

Good sf is not the same thing as hard sf (vs soft). It's just adherence to real physics, and can be good stories or sucky.

Even the Expanse needed an unobtanium drive to remain hard sf but power around the solar system in days or weeks rather than years.

[Brett Bellmore]

By definition, "hard" SF avoids anything that conflicts with known physical law. And FTL travel is about as unphysical as it gets, for all the intellectual effort that's been wasted trying to rationalize warp drives.

[Sarcastr0]

You're thinking like an engineer.

Physical laws in physics don't actually work like that.

[Brett Bellmore]

It's true that I approach SF like an engineer, I like puzzling out how to achieve SF effects with real engineering techniques, like building a Ringworld with real materials, instead of a half dozen different forms of unobtainium.

But, could you expand on "physical laws in physics don't actually work like that"? I once tooled up to understand exactly why quantum entanglement couldn't be used for communications, let alone FTL communications; My impression is that physics provides no real basis for thinking that anything whatsoever can propagate FTL, and that actual space warps require unphysical things like negative energy densities, which is sort of a clue that, no, you can't do that.

[Sarcastr0]

physics provides no real basis for thinking that anything whatsoever can propagate FTL
1) no basis is not at all the same as impossible.
2) who says the only way from A to B is propagating?

We have had plenty of conceptual revolutions in physics, don't foreclose the possibility of more!

[Brett Bellmore]

1) Yeah, there's a reason I said, "no basis for thinking" rather than "conclusively rules out"; The latter isn't really a thing, is it? I suppose tomorrow we could discover that brane cosmology was right, and find a way to construct off-brane artifacts that could pluck you out of existence here and now, and insert you somewhere and somewhen else. But is there any reason to think we will?

2) I'm reminded of Diaspora by Egan. Faced with an existential need to explore the universe, they expend vast resources to build a machine that can construct tranversable wormholes... Only to find that the length inside the wormhole is exactly the same as outside! Because, why wouldn't it be? Indeed, hasn't somebody run calculations on a transversable wormhole that was shorter than the outside dimension, and concluded it would be inherently unstable?

[Sarcastr0]

But is there any reason to think we will? doesn't mean we won't. There was a time I relished genre wars but these days I've realized that if your hard sci-fi forecloses FTL, that's fine by me!

So far as I know traversable wormholes are foreclosed by the same negative energy density issue as warp drive.

Though a lot of our observations of physical effects break down where singularities get involved. Though wildly against our intuition in all ways can be not fun to write for.

[Brett Bellmore]

I tend to see SF with invented physics as being like a version of Scrabble where you can invent new words. Sure, you can explore some concepts that way, but figuring out how to do incredible stuff while coloring inside the lines is more challenging.

I do still hold out a little hope for finding quark matter inside asteroids.

[Sarcastr0]

Some fundamental shift is abrewin' cosmically.

https://www.reuters.com/science/webb-telescope-confirms-universe-is-expanding-an-unexpected-rate-2024-12-09/

"Yes, it appears there is something missing in our understanding of the universe," added Riess, a 2011 Nobel laureate in physics for the co-discovery of the universe's accelerating expansion. "Our understanding of the universe contains a lot of ignorance about two elements - dark matter and dark energy - and these make up 96% of the universe, so this is no small matter."

Though don't get me started on sci-fi's abuse of dark matter's definition.

[Brett Bellmore]

I wouldn't be shocked if a century hence, physicists had decided "dark" this and "dark" that was some kind of dead end. Has kind of an etherish feel to it.

[Sarcastr0]

That's branding, not physics.

Dark matter just the collection of theories addressing 'galaxy rotation speeds are messed up if the only mass is what we see through EM.'
Mass that doesn't couple to EM is the most likely explanation here. Wouldn't even be rare, we just wouldn't detect it since our detectors are generally based on EM. But maybe it's something more wild, it's true.

Dark energy is a subset of the theories addressing 'redshifts are messed up (in the opposite direction from DM) based on our EM-based observations'. (Though some connect DE to inflation as well, that's in no way required).
That formulation might get left behind in the coming decades as we see other wonky stuff.

[grb]

Brett Bellmore : "Has kind of an etherish feel to it."

1. I dabble in general surveys of modern physics only to not be totally ignorant. But my impression is the entire field is jumping thru endless hoops to reach a coherent "answer" without some fundamental insight, perspective or information. Thomas Kuhn wrote a book about the ever-more convoluted adjustments astronomers made to keep the earth-centric model of the solar system afloat after conflicting evidence was found. It was always possible to make it work by adding another celestial sphere or two, but the paradigm was clearly out of wack. That seems similar to today.

2. Ever see the movie Primer? It created the appearance of plausible time travel (and a resulting plot line almost impossible to follow).

[SRG2]

https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/hard_sf

Hard sf should not, however, wilfully ignore or break known scientific principles, yet stories classified as "hard sf" often contain, for example, ESP, Superman, Faster-than-Light and Time-Travel themes (see also Imaginary Science). Occasionally it is characterized by auctorial lecturing about the story's supposed scientific underpinning, a didacticism which may lapse into numbing Infodumps. While a rigorous definition of "hard sf" may be impossible, perhaps the most important thing about it is, not that it should include real science in any great detail, but that it should respect the scientific spirit; it should seek to provide natural rather than supernatural or transcendental explanations for the events and phenomena it describes.

Works for me

[taqmcg]

I;m surprised at the definition of space opera as being associated with fighting with swords....
That's never been my understanding of space opera, which I have always taken to be science fiction about conflict set on epic scales. The earliest might be Doc Smith's Skylark and Lensman series where the ultimate contests involve battles over at least the Galaxy and are more likely to include smashing planetary anti-matter bodies into normal matter planets, than swords, More recently something like Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, or Zack Jordan's The Last Human are what I'd suggest as exemplars. The Deep may qualify though its scale is far smaller: still the entire Solar System may be big enough.... No particular reliance in any of these on swords that I can recall.

P.S. Looks like this may have not gotten put in as a response to quite the right message....

[Brett Bellmore]

The Dark Star Passes came to mind, but, lord! When I looked it up, Doc Smith's The Skylark of Space was published in 1928! Almost everything he wrote predated WWII.

So, yeah, I guess he's the first Space Opera author.

[SRG2]

I enjoy space opera, I really do, but I know it's just a specialized genre of fantasy.

My prescient definition of space opera - because I must have coined it in 1976 - is that in an advanced society with spaceships, etc., the hero and villain fight each other with swords.

[Malika the Maiz]

lol, love it!

[Stepped Reckoner]

So basically, Dune.

[Scooter]

Firefly?

[Sarcastr0]

Seasons 2-4 of Babylon 5. NobleDark, well executed if you can handle 90s effects.

[Grim-----Noble - an axis about how much individuals can make a difference.
Bright------Dark - an axis about how bad-off things are in the setting when the series starts.

Star Trek, done right, is Noblebright. Warhammer 40K is Grimdark right down to it's branding.]

Star Trek: Strange New Worlds brings some impressive Original Series flavor while still being modern, cinema-level special effects and all.

Not at all a fan of the other live-action NuTreks - Discovery and Picard.

Lower Decks is cute, but in the end doesn't stick to the ribs.

[jimc5499]

B5 is a favorite. I'm currently watching Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis.

[Sarcastr0]

My brother loves both of those shows. I've never been able to find the time to make that commitment.

Thoughts on B5 Season 1 and Season 5?

[jimc5499]

Give me a few days. I just started re-watching B5 Monday. Hadn't seen it in about 15 years.

[GreenLanternCorps]

For B5 you really need all five seasons and the films.

The first movie and season one sets up the chess pieces 2-4 tell the main story, and five deals with the messy aftermath. You can’t skip them IMHO.

Ideally the main storyline would have finished in mid-season five, but the expected cancellation forced JMS to cram it into the end of the fourth season. The move to TNT came too late.

I still consider it the best science fiction show ever put on TV.

[Sarcastr0]

I'd say Season 1 you need to see Midnight on the Firing Line, and Signs and Portents. Maybe only Signs and Portents, depending on how much you want the Sinclair payoff to hit.

The compressed schedule for Season 4 made it just an incredible ride.
I do crap on Season 5 too much, but frankly dwelling on the Psi Core is boring, Walter Koening's bravura performance nonwithstanding.
But Molari and G'Kar do have some time to shine in ways I've carried with me.

[Frank Drackman]

Call me a dirty old man, but if I tune into "Charmed" or "Buffy" (is that all TNT runs anymore?) I'm hooked for the rest of the episode and the next one, and the.....(and if the original "Law & Order" follows that day's done)

Frank

[Scooter]

Never really got into Charmed; but Buffy was fantastic. One thing that made it exceptional was that they allowed the 'supporting' characters to develop.

Favorite episode is 'Family' where Spike gets his digs in at Tara's family.

[SRG2]

The Expanse: one of the best SF series I've seen for a while, slightly marred by an unbelievable McGuffin (even allowing for regular suspension of disbelief). Addresses the politics of splitting human societies as we start colonising the solar system.

Better than Us: Russian TV series about an empathic android who does not follow Asimov's 3 Laws, set in a grim near-future. Gritty and different.

Silo: terrific show about humans living in a silo habitat after some disaster has forced them underground. The society has to abide by a code which, among other things, outlaws the individual ownership of pre-silo tech.

Severance: alternative present show about an odd corporation whose employees have voluntarily undergone "severance" - their work personalities have no memory of their outside lives, and their outside personalities have no memory of their work lives. Curiosity starts getting the better of some employees. Highly original and intriguing.

[teiwnc]

The expanse is excellent….books are better and will give you and ending.

Better than us is like The Mandelorian but instead of baby yoda its a girl and you get to see Pascal’s face.

Silo is good. Read the books and its a decent series. Think the tv show is better.

Severence is so much fun…

[Sarcastr0]

More recently, I liked The Sandman and Loki.

On my list are Agatha All Along and Dark Matter.

[Reallynotbob]

Based on your interests... consider Silo (on Apple).

[Sarcastr0]

That is like the 4th Silo recommendation. I guess I'm going to have to add it to the list!

[Nelson]

I enjoyed Dark Matter. But I’m a sucker for a show driven by Schroedinger’s Cat.

[teiwnc]

Loved The Sandman and Agatha All Along…and Dark Matter is most excellent…also a great book.

[Malika the Maiz]

Amazon’s Night Sky about an elderly couple that has access to a portal leading to another world is good. Also same service’s Outer Range with Josh Brolin as a rancher with a time portal on his property is good (almost like a sci-fi Yellowstone).

[Nelson]

I loved Night Sky and JK Simmonds is fantastic, but it was cancelled after one season. The acting in it was amazing.

[Jmaie]

Not to derail the conversation but I feel that J. K. Simmons is hugely underrated as an actor. In Counterpart there were two parallel universes, in one he was a mild mannered bureaucrat and the other a dangerous master-spy. Upon him entering a room you could tell which he was playing just by body language.

Also, for SF I recommend...Counterpart. Also very much enjoyed Night Sky, I kept hoping they'd bring it back.

[teiwnc]

JK simmons is the best. Counterpoint is next level good…spy sci fi!! Night Sky was stunning!!! So good and was so pissed it only had one season.

[шинка]

There is absolutely no good fantasy or sci-fi on TV or in a series full stop.

Every single plot and theme has been overdone. There are copious layers of social justice oozing all over the place.

Instead of watching something extremely creative and thought-provoking I get the same old tropes paraded in front of me with woke actors.

I don't know how anyone considers any of this "entertainment". It's an abject fucking waste of time with no entertainment other than rubbernecking social justice warriors in their "creative" train wreck.

When the fucking industrial complex that is our "entertainment" industry eventually dies and real talent has the opportunity to come to the forefront, expect everything to suck in exactly the same way with a different cast of rainbow social justice warriors.

Fuck that, I haven't watched TV/movies in a few years so far because everything is utterly predictable garbage.

[Sarcastr0]

Grumpus.

[шинка]

Grumpus Maximus

Our two replies have more creativity than all of Hollywood this entire year.

[Sarcastr0]

1. About when did sci-fi TV turn derivative?
2. Have you tried shows from other countries? Like The Witcher or Anime? Tropey, but the tropes are new to you.
3. What are the worst offenders these days in terms of being uncreative?
4. What are some false horses, that a lot of people think are novel/good but to you are just as derivative as the rest?
5. Fiction has a lot of aspects, what is your mix?
A. Plot
B. Setting
C. Characters
D. Vibe/Aesthetic
E. (optional) thesis
F. Execution (effects/acting/dialogue)

[SRG2]

I haven't watched TV/movies in a few years so far because everything is utterly predictable garbage.

I've never tried [food item X] because it tastes terrible.

[шинка]

You should try more food then.

Name a show that doesn't regurgitate woke tropes or social justice distractions or recycle old plots or rely on the creativity from other sources (the Marvel years were an open admission that Hollywood ran out of ideas...they still have none...).

Creativity is dead because it's not woke.

[SRG2]

Happy, Preacher, Blood Drive. Now fuck off.

And Star Trek was the original woke SF show. Are you claiming it wasn't original?

[шинка]

Woke wasn't a thing in the 1960s. You can spend as many words as you'd like trying to build up a linkage between the two, but they are mutually exclusive.

It's one thing to, as an individual show, to push the boundaries of society—and this is the appeal of fantasy and scifi—against all kinds of values, mores, and tropes of the day.

It is entirely another thing for an industry to go into groupthink and produce content with the intent to influence society. They can do that, I just don't have to like it, but it, or give a shit about it. But it is a reflection of an industry that has put greater value on the messaging versus the actual quality of the content they are producing. Where you put your focus is where you put your energy, and that is demonstrated in the products you produce.

If you want to watch a very, very compelling criticism of society, and it is a very accurate display, watch Wall-E. Nothing woke in there, but you can see all over the place the artists' concern for society's obsession over screen time. Also note when Wall-E was released: 2008, the year AFTER the iPhone debut. That movie is excellent ScFi and they accurately criticized society.

[Malika the Maiz]

The original Star Trek wasn’t “woke?” Lol

[шинка]

Yes.

What was the definition of woke in the 1960s. You scratch around for that. There was no "woke" in the 1960s.

[Malika the Maiz]

They didn’t use the term “woke” but all the elements people complain about with that were there (conscious “multicultural and racial casting regarding race and gender, conscious preaching against capitalism, colonialism, the Vietnam war, etc., conscious transgressing of societal taboos like the Kirk-Uhura kiss, etc).

[Bob from Ohio]

"societal taboos like the Kirk-Uhura kiss"

Forced by telekinesis. No consent!

[grb]

Bob from Ohio : "Forced by telekinesis. No consent!"

That Kirk was "forced" illustrates how transgressive it was given its cultural time frame. 'Cause we all know if she'd have been a bit paler, Kirk would have eagerly been on it like white on rice.

But of course it had nothing to do with Kirk qua character anyway. If Uhura had been an green-skinned Orion woman, James T wouldn't have hesitated a second. Telekinesis was required to protect the home viewers, not stoke Kirk's ardor.

Pathetic when you think back on it. Makes you even more thankful for all the "woke" progress that has bettered our country. Of course in future decades, all the whiny snowflake rightwing losers who endlessly whinge now about "woke" will admit they were wrong all along, just as they do today looking back on decades past. Progress!

[Brett Bellmore]

You didn't notice that Kirk never, ever went after a girl who was in his chain of command?

If one of his bridge officers had been a green skinned Orion woman, he'd have left her alone.

[Sarcastr0]

He also didn't go after dudes in his chain of command, Brett. That's not really the whole picture of gender politics in TOS.

[Brett Bellmore]

Sarcastr0, you ever consider that, if we ever get a handle on the biological causes of homosexuality, it will just stop being a thing, because parents want grandkids?

That 'gay culture' is kind of like 'deaf culture', it can't survive a cure or preventative?

So, that you'd see no gays in a 25th century SF with ultra-advanced medicine is hardly shocking. Rather, it's to be expected.

[Brett Bellmore]

I have to admit that, watching Star Trek as a child I didn't find that kiss particularly shocking. But, of course, I was 9 at the time, and there were a lot of societal taboos like that my parents never got around to transmitting to me.

[Nelson]

“ What was the definition of woke in the 1960s.”

Well, shit man. Woke doesn’t mean what you whiney snowflakes think it does in 2024. But the things you claim it means today were turned up to 11 in the 60’s, so it’s more woke than woke.

[SRG2]

You're stupid enough to think that something doesn't exist until there's a name for it.

[Reallynotbob]

So the pinnacle of 21st Century sci-fi creativity and avoidance of tropes is... a Pixar movie?

[Bob from Ohio]

"Star Trek was the original woke SF show"

No it wasn't, Women couldn't be starship captains for instance.

Some civil rights nods and minor casting of blacks does not make it "woke".

[SRG2]

Relative to where 60s society was, absolutely it was woke.

[Mr. Bumble]

Well, not in how it treated women as mostly eye candy.

[Bob from Ohio]

The only regular black and female character was the receptionist. Yeoman Rand was designed to be Kirk's love interest. Kirk romanced chicks across the galaxy, all wearing flimsy dresses. Mini skirt uniforms.

[SRG2]

You have to judge such things in the context of their time not today.

[Malika the Maiz]

Roddenberry consciously pushed to have pretty unprecedented gender and racial representation on the show (with Asian, Black and women officers [remember his pilot had a woman second in command]). That’s not woke?

[Bob from Ohio]

"remember his pilot had a woman second in command"

Dropped and the actress [his wife] played a lovesick nurse in the series.

Women played support staff or "helping" professions only until Deep Space Nine except for Tasha Yar one season in TNG.

[Malika the Maiz]

Uhura was bridge staff, and Roddenberry wouldn’t have had his wife be second in command in the pilot if it wasn’t something he disagreed with. It’s also silly to try to handwave McFadden’s character as a helping professional when similarly situated Bones was one of the three main characters of the original show.

[WuzYoungOnceToo]

The only regular black and female character was the receptionist.

Characterizing the quite-technically-proficient communications officer of a starship as "the receptionist" is ridiculous.

Women played support staff or "helping" professions only until Deep Space Nine except for Tasha Yar one season in TNG.

STOS:

S1E3 ("Where No Man Has Gone Before"): Dr. Elisabeth Dehner, ship psychiatrist, develops god-like powers.

S1E28 ("The City on the Edge of Forever): Edith Keeler is a women of such impact that the future of mankind hinges on whether she lives or dies.

S2E1 ("Amok Time"): T'Pau. Enough said.

S2E9 ("Metamorphosis"): Nancy Hedford, Assistant Federation Commissioner in charge of preventing a planetary war.

S3E2 ("The Enterprise Incident"): The Romulan captain was a woman.

S3E11 ("Wink of an Eye"): The Scalosian leader is a woman.

STTNG:

Admiral Alynna Nechayev appears in 4 different episodes (and later in a couple on DS9). Also, 2 different female ships surgeons, one of which had a command rank and actually took command of the ship on at least one occasion. And in the episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" the Enterprise-C is commanded by Captain Rachel Garrett. And don't forget Commander Elizabeth Shelby, anti-Borg expert.

[Krayt]

Were people getting pissed off because of Uhura? How about the Japanese guy? This wasn't super long after WWII. What about the commie Rooskie? They were trying to show a world where humanity got along. Did this piss people off?

I don't know bow we got to the current state, but it takes two to tango, one side using it to simulate people that they should feel attacked, and the other side recasting it not as "here's a benevolent future to look to" but rather a "you're the problem and we're the cure."

[Brett Bellmore]

The commie Rooskie was a comedic relief, remember?

[Sarcastr0]

The sexual politics of Star Trek were pretty regressive, even for it's time.

But you're holding woke to a very high standard if ya gotta be woke in all ways to count as woke.

There was a Russian and a black woman on the bridge crew. And the imperialists were the bad guys.

[Brett Bellmore]

Again I remind you, virtually everybody you saw on Star Trek was a member of the military on a military vessel, under military discipline. That's not exactly a "free love" situation.

[Sarcastr0]

I don't see what that has to do with my comment.

[Brett Bellmore]

The sexual politics being regressive, even for the time?

[Sarcastr0]

The relationships were tame not because of the Naval-esque setting but because of the censors. You may not be aware of how many memos requesting more polyamory Roddenberry was sending.

But the sexual politics of TOS...women don't have the emotional stability to be Starship Captains.
The sexist tropes are all over the place
- women are emotionally driven and easily manipulated,
- women as damsels without agency
- women as witchy sadists
- women exist to please me.

[Bob from Ohio]

"But the sexual politics of TOS...women don't have the emotional stability to be Starship Captains.
The sexist tropes are all over the place
- women are emotionally driven and easily manipulated,
- women as damsels without agency
- women as witchy sadists
- women exist to please me."

We agree!

[Mr. Bumble]

...and who knew that alien women were so hot?

[Sarcastr0]

We do, Bob, though I don't think that doesn't mean Trek wasn't breathtakingly liberal on net.

I'd also quibble about discarding the first pilot - it aired as part of "The Cage." Number One is cannon.

[Krayt]

the Marvel years

This is ironic becuase comic books regularly steal wow moments from movies.

[Malika the Maiz]

When was the last good SF on tv in your opinion?

[шинка]

I like Oblivion but am cooling on it. We'll see how it continues.

I mentioned Wall-E in an earlier post.

Ink and Pi were good movies. Primer was excellent (and incredibly difficult to follow at the end). I have been watching non-US content because it is excellent. I saw a season of a fantasy show called monsters. It was pretty good because it wasn't from Hollywood.

Dark was excellent, non-US.

Glitch was also very good, non-US.

[Malika the Maiz]

Dark had a prominent trans character and an anti-nuclear message. That’s not woke?

[Krayt]

Glitch was interesting, but not new. It was the inverse of a 1960s British sci fi, but instead of dying when you crossed a mysterious boundary into a village, you died when you left.

That became a contemporary thing with similar shows, as Hollywood is wont to glom onto, with Dome, I think it was called.

[TW]

Star Trek Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks are both excellent. I've heard good things about Prodigy as well.
I enjoyed the last season of The Orville and I mostly enjoy The Boys.
The Last of Us was really good.

[WuzYoungOnceToo]

Star Trek Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks are both excellent.

STSNW started off OK, but quickly went straight to Cringetown with that stupid singing episode.

[Malika the Maiz]

What is a “woke actor?”

[Mr. Bumble]

George Takei.

[Malika the Maiz]

As always Bumble, thanks for accidentally making my point!

[Krayt]

I dunno. At some point the Trek people declared Sulu was gay all along, in honor of George, and this just pissed him off. He just wanted the equality to be hired to play normal, aka usually straight roles, like any other actor, instead of being treated like a novelty shoved into a novelty box. Go from having to hide it, to being shoved into a box. Just treat me normal, dude.

The Trek people patronizingly patted him on the head and proceded anyway, as they knew better, then meekly changed the subject.

[Sarcastr0]

There is no single 'the Trek people' these days.

There are 'what if the Cold War but good?' there are 'what if we treated the setting like Star Wars' there are 'all the social justice issues, and we'll be as subtle as an anvil' and there are 'lets keep it derivative and full of fanservice references!' and more. Oftentimes in the same show.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

There is the Trekkie vs Trekker debate. They even made a documentary on it.

[Brett Bellmore]

Check out "eXistenZ". Though you did qualify "on TV or in a series".

It's not derivative of anything, so far as I can tell, unless maybe one of the tails in Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad.

[Flight-ER-Doc]

Firefly
Babylon 5 (at least the last 4 seasons)
Deep Space 9 (the best trek franchise series)
Galaxy Quest (the best Trek movie)
Battlestar Galactica, the reboot miniseries. The series got...weird
Night Sky
Expanse

Lots of good SciFi on TV

[WuzYoungOnceToo]

Firefly
Galaxy Quest

Just because a show/movie is set in space doesn't make it science fiction (though both of those are excellent works).

I'd add For All Mankind on AppleTV to the list...but I'm a sucker for a good alternative history fiction. And although I'm irked by the unnecessary liberties they've taken with parts of the story, Foundation is a well-crafted and visually gorgeous telling of Asimov's classic.

[Stepped Reckoner]

This being the Internet, "utterly predictable garbage" is a not half bad description of this bilious to-hell-with-them-all comment.

[Sarcastr0]

I've heard For All Mankind is good.

Worth it?

[Currentsitguy]

We've really enjoyed it. While being very entertaining with well developed characters and a plausible plotline, it manages to show IMHO where we should have been today had we not given up on space after landing on the moon.

While not giving too much away the episode with the astronauts stuck on the moon with noting to do but watch a single videocassette of The Bob Newhart Show is extremely well written.

[Krayt]

The OA on Netflix. A group of high school people (mostly students but also a teacher) who'd never hang out together, indeed the football guy bullies a smaller dude, get drawn together by odd happenings when the director/writer gets shot in a school shooting, but literally disappears. Their investigations ultimately hash out a method to duplicate it, then the real fun begins.

Loaded with social drama, it also ends after 2 or 3 seasons, with as big an unrequited story overhang as The Expanse. But fun until then.

[Krayt]

I don't know why I posted this as a reply here. Bonus points if someone can explain. Hard mode: Can't say because stoopid

[Caphon]

First season is great, second season starts to slide and it’s third was the last I could suffer. Not sure I even made it through. I know you’re a Trek fan so this may not apply the same way, but sci fi TV shows have a ratio of sci-fi plot to ordinary human relationship drama / soap opera fare, and season 1 of FAM the ratio is good, by season three the sci fi plot seemed like an incidental backdrop for the standard tv relationship cruft. I think that happens when the writers have exhausted the original plot idea and need to fill time, or new writers are brought on that have no attachment to the genre.
I found myself fast forwarding through more and more conversations about cheating, divorce, and romance to find the actual sci-fi plot line.

[Sarcastr0]

I tend to be plot/setting first, and can be coaxed into more soap opera-y stuff in later season only if really well executed.

Wouldn't be the first show I peter out on before it completes!

[Paladin_44]

As good as To Serve Mankind?

[Sarcastr0]

Back in the days of network TV (my family never got cable growing up) NBC I think it was? Had a 2 day Twilight Zone marathon every New Years.

We would VCR it and enjoy for the next couple of months.

I remember liking
Will the Real Martian Please Stand Up,
One for the Angels, and
A Nice Place to Visit.

I was in middle/high school, so I expect my mileage would vary a lot nowadays.
But lord was that a tightly done show.

[Currentsitguy]

One for the Angels I always thought was a masterpiece. A well executed, very tender story that if you aren't wiping your eyes at the end, you have no soul.

[Frank Drackman]

"Mr Chambers! Mr Chambers! The book! "To Serve Man"! it's it's it's a Cookbook!!!!!!!!!!!"
Rod Serling's concluding summary is great also
"The recollections of one Michael Chambers with appropriate flashbacks and soliloquy. Or more simply stated, the evolution of man. The cycle of going from dust to dessert. The metamorphosis from being the ruler of a planet to an ingredient in someone's soup. It's tonight's bill of fare from The Twilight Zone."

Frank

[Calliope]

Starts very good. Even stays very good for quite a while, but in addition to the general soap opera dynamic that starts taking over, at some point they're just torturing the characters and it became very uncomfortable to watch them continually come up with new ways for the characters to suffer.

[Currentsitguy]

You gotta admit the solar sail/pirate ship scene can't help but put a smile on your face. Also when they figure out none of them were the 1st to make it to Mars.

[teiwnc]

Its ok. It can be a bit too soap opera at times…overwrought…but love all the space shit. Its got a few interesting story lines and a lot of tropey ones…

[Area Man]

This is such a broad category spanning over decades, so there's no real way to pin down a recommendation. But since it's currently on right now, I recommend Silo. The plot is engaging. The characters are well developed. The acting is strong. And the atmospherics are truly felt.

The main character is a true "strong female," not a Mary Sue. She's got a flawed personality and is vulnerable, so much so that, even though she's the main character, you feel like she might not succeed each week. Yet, she is driven towards her goal and overcomes the obstacles. In other words, she's an interesting character that you want to root for and watch more of, not a Nike women's running-show ad.

[No One Of Consequence]

Don't know of anything currently on that's worth watching, but the reboot of Battlestar Galactica was good, as was Babylon 5.

[Currentsitguy]

I have heard they are going to reboot Battlestar Galactica AGAIN!!

[CaptainQuack]

Babylon 5. Best Last hope for Peace.

[Flight-ER-Doc]

Also probably the best ending episode in TV history

[Ska]

The best fantasy and sci-fi are on your PC. Warhammer 40K: Rogue Trader, Cyberpunk 2077, Metaphor:ReFantazio (bit of both on this one), Baldur's Gate 3. Better stories, cooler characters, and you get to participate in a more active role than viewer.

[Scooter]

I'm enjoying BG3. The dialogue options based on the type of lead character are epic.

[Ska]

I rolled a bard for my first playthrough so I could be face for my group of armed, horny delinquents. Bard gets so many good dialogue options with how many skills, job, and race options you can put together. Not to mention disguise self letting you choose racial dialogue, too.

[Caphon]

Normally I hate shows based on games, but Fallout and Borderlands were enjoyable fare.

I enjoyed the first (last) season of Time Bandits, maybe for nostalgia of theme than its actual execution. Its ironing over of history and weakness of antagonist subplot represent missed opportunities and it has been cancelled after only 1 season. But main character and his family were well done.

I get all the hate for Disney and Star Wars, but Skeleton Crew is shaping up to be a goonies-style adventure if you can suffer the chars making inexplicably bad decisions and a few badly directed scenes.

[Ska]

Fallout was good. For a gaming nerd like myself, hearing all the game sounds and songs from the soundtracks (that are all ingrained in my brain at this point), seeing the art direction for a universe I've spent thousands of hours in over the span of a few decades... god, I love that franchise and the show wasn't a total fucking let down (like Witcher or pretty much all game adaptations).

My wife, who plays no games, actually enjoyed it, too. Between her and my colleagues who aren't gamers, it was good to hear from people whose first interaction with the world was positive. I had the lowest expectations going in but they did Fallout justice.

[ReadMore]

The Immigration Utopia with Ilya Somin©, that sci-fi show where unvetted terrorists and CCP operatives stream over the border and the elite proclaim that it's the moral equivalent to orderly, vetted immigration, and if you don't think so, you're Racist™. Then the elite go to fancy dinner parties and talk about which ones have the cheapest labor costs for their businesses while signaling that they care about their workers.

Actually, it's not that realistic of a show, so n/m. Speaking of Ilya, we haven't seen one of his overly-long posts in awhile. Is he busy giving legal counsel to some of those proud, productive daughters of Palestinian immigrants who were just caught at his university seizing a school building at the direction of Hamas. Apparently, their brother, a proud GMU alumnus in his own right, was at home guarding the family's cache of guns and "Death to Jews" signs during his sisters' siege.

But that's of no moment. Whether it's a Lebanese immigrant building a string of successful businesses and employing workers, or it's Palestinian refugees plotting the deaths of Jews while engaging in death to America sloganeering as part of an intifada directed from a foreign terrorist organization, it's all of equal worth to Ilya.

[arhar]

Shhh, don't conjure him back. Just enjoy it when you get a break from the self anointed high on moral superiority.

[TW]

New(er) series that I’m watching: Star Trek Strange New Worlds and Star Trek Lower Decks (which is airing its final season). I also just finished the third season of The Legend of Vox Machina and am almost through Season 2 of Voltron Legendary Defender. I’m also planning to watch The Penguin, Invincible, season 2 of The Last of Us, season 2 of Squid Games and the next season of The Boys.
Old(er) series that I’m rewatching: Farscape, Black Sails (prequel to Treasure Island) and Spartacus.
On my list to rewatch: Space: Above & Beyond, The Shield, Deathnote and Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion

[Sarcastr0]

My wife really likes The Legend of Vox Machina.

[Currentsitguy]

Deathnote was engrossing. If you like that sort of dark themed anime I'd suggest Trinity Blood.

[MN2828]

Witcher -- it is based on the books, not the game
Resident Alien
Fallout
The Boys

[Krayt]

Tried Witcher. It opens with Superman fighting a giant spider crab thing. It does not fight like a giant spider crab thing, but like a stupid thing made by a game designer who has no idea how spider things or crab things fight, so Superman whips its ass instead of getting captured and eaten instantly, show over.

So, show over. I don't care how cute the chick is. I haven't bailed this fast on a show since the opening scene of Badlands.

[Savagely Average]

Arcane - League of Legends. Wonderful art, engaging characters, and hands-down the best music on any TV show ever, bar none.

[GKHoff]

Firefly (TV), Serenity (Movie)

[teiwnc]

Firefly is the best.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

Star Trek TOS.

As opposed to the later series, aka Star Trek POS.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

Similar comment re Dr. Who.

[Currentsitguy]

Tom Baker FTW.

[SRG2]

I saw the first ever episode of Dr. Who. Been a fan, mostly, ever since. Tom Baker, David Tennant and Peter Capaldi for me.

[Brett Bellmore]

I was introduced to Dr. Who by the 1965 "Doctor Who and the Daleks". Of course, in that movie Dr. Who wasn't an alien.

[Currentsitguy]

How do you feel about the 70's animated series?

[The Margrave of Azilia]

I didn't know it existed. Would I benefit from knowing more?

[Currentsitguy]

It originally ran in the early 70's. The animation is standard Filmation from the period, nothing to write home about, but it utilized many of the top SciFi writers of the period.

It starred the voices of all of the original cast with the notable exception of Walter Koenig.

I guess I could say if you enjoyed TOS, you will appreciate TAS.

Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Animated_Series

[HankViam]

Inside No. 9, currently on BritBox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_No._9

[Intelligent Mr Toad]

FRIDAY THE THIRTEENTH, the Series!!!!!!

Hip, Satanic, comedic in just the right places, and ethical: leaves no doubt who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.

For instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yiVaoM9rJM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUEJ9ccQ1ak

And includes some important guest-stars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13cMvG2PeiU

[grb]

The other day we were discussing Lost in Space, and I claimed it was unique. Per my memory, it's the only TV series to ever change completely in tone over its run. The initial episodes were completely serious and meant to be SiFi realism, albeit with giant alien monsters.

But it quickly morphed into burlesque absurdist comedy. The only question is whether any other shows did too. For instance, MASH transitioned a bit from black comedy to warm humanistic humor, but the change wasn't that great. I've tried to remember if Batman ever took itself seriously, but doubt it did. Lost in Space probably stands alone. (Danger, Will Robinson!)

[Currentsitguy]

It was for the most part classic Irwin Allen. I think the other show, also one of Allen's that followed a similar trajectory was Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. As it went on I think it verged more into the absurd as the series progressed.

[Jmaie]

Rumor has it there's a sequel to District 9 in the works called...District 10. I hope it's made.

[teiwnc]

I love tv. I hate tropes. Love being surprised. But once I love characters I will watch a show to the bitter end…sometimes more than once. Here’s my favorites:
Firefly (and Serenity) holds up well
The Expanse (also books)
Interstellar (movie)
The Martian (also a book and he’s got other books that are excellent and “realistic”)
Battlestar Galactica (watched 3x now)
Dark Matter (also a book)
Dark (German and time travel and ridiculously good.)
The OA
Humans (british)
Utopia (British version) like stunning and amazing …one of the best of all time.
Legion (like an alternative comic book heroes…fun and trippy)
Pennyworth (alfred batman prequel )
The Penguin
The Wheel of Time (decent)
The Witcher (books are so good…polish)
The Lord of the Rings prequel
The Dune Prequel (just starting but good)
House of the Dragon (I love this world and also I love dragons)
Game of Thrones (ive read all the books and watched it at least 3x…although mostly I like watching Dani smite all the slavers and mysoginists)
The Mandelorian. Im a Star Wars freak and this is just perfect. Watched 3 times but mostly because I like to hang out in Tatooine.
Andor. Really good too.
Loving Skeleton Crew so far. Plus Im getting my 12 year old into it
Doctor Who. Especially Matt Smith arc. Then Tennant. Ive rewatched countless times. Its comfort tv.
Star Trek Picard is also comfort. A fun Reunion show.
Star Trek Brave New Worlds is good…and they have a crossover with Lower Deck which is hilarious.

[chengcsaephan]

I’m giving out free donations to 30 random individuals Globally. Drop a text with your name Cheng Charlie Saephan Foundation. Your name could be included in the list of winners after a spin ball. GOD BLESS AMERICA and GOD BLESS POWERBALL.

[Armchair]

On a larger note, I observe that many of these recommendations are older, especially for live action. And...there's not much that is really "good" out that's new. In my opinion, this is primarily due to the streaming wars for a number of reasons.

1. It dilutes the talent/script writing/acting pool, such that a larger number of simply "OK" shows are made, rather than fewer, better shows.
2. It dilutes the viewership, creating off incentives, that are described below.
3. It creates a large number of "meh" shows, that often require a hook (brand) to draw people in.

So, what does this do?

1. It incentivizes the use of "brands" (Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel), but...those brands start to get played out. Sometimes you'll get a good take on a new brand/IP (ie, Fallout on Amazon was good), but that leads to point number 2.

2. It incentivizes very short "seasons." Fallout is just 8 episodes. A season used to be much longer. Farscape (an excellent show) on SciFi had an initial season of 22 episodes. Almost 3 "current show" seasons. A 22-episode initial season? That couldn't be done today. And then you get large delays between the "Seasons" as filming needs to restart, etc. It breaks the chemistry, story telling, etc. To use Fallout for an example, it's going to be 2 years between 8 week "seasons".

3. And it encourages "niche" projects that need a fast grab for a niche audience, but shows that can't necessarily stand the length of time for a main audience....

All this to say is...there's not much good out, especially not much good that lasts.

[Armchair]

As for the second key point...how to fix this?

I've been drawn to (Japanese) anime over the last 5 years, as they don't have as severe a problem as live action has. They also have excellent new IP, that doesn't use the same old tropes. Each anime "Season" starts every quarter, and has at least 12 episodes, and often very fast turn-around time such that you'll get an initial season of 24 episodes within a year. They tend to have a solid supply of source material in the (Light novel/manga) that translates well to the anime format. This also allows new ideas to be "vetted" by the public at cheaper cost. With all that, here are the recommendations. I'll also watch dubs, they work well in anime.

1. Frieren: Beyond Journey's End: An excellent take on the classic fantasy "defeat the demon lord with the party of 4" story line, which asks...what happens 100 years after? Especially with the Elf, who just naturally...outlives the human and the rest of the party. A little slow initially, but develops nicely.

2. Kaiju No 8. : A nice, action-paced show, with good comedy, about Japanese forces fighting large monsters...and one team member who turns into one.

3. KonoSuba: Perhaps the best action-comedy fantasy bit out there, worth re-watching endlessly.

4. Dr Stone.

[Brett Bellmore]

Yes, Frieren is excellent. Actually, your whole list is pretty good. I'd add that Overlord is fantastic. Can't wait for the next season, the theatrical release was pretty good.

Season 5 will apparently be the last season, (Assuming it ever releases.) they'll be caught up with the books, which are coming to a conclusion.

I'm not actually terribly impressed with most of this season at Crunchyroll, most of it's terribly derivative, or just not my cup of tea. But that's par for the course, Sturgeon's law applies to anime, too.

[Armchair]

Yeah, this season is pretty weak at Crunchyroll. Shangri-La Frontier is watchable, as is Demon Lord 2099, but nothing is really "exciting".

[Frank Drackman]

Sailor Moon has got the boom Anime Babes that make me think the wrong thing

[Brett Bellmore]

Cutie Honey has better babes.

[Armchair]

If that's your boat, just go straight to High School DxD

[ZT]

Love Firefly to pieces. Browncoats for life!

The Expanse.

Farscape.

For the time, the original Stargate, along with Atlantis.

The movie Prospect was a delightful find.

Fantasy is harder. I almost always read the books first and Wheel of Time and Rings of Power were just trash-takes. Game of Thrones...meh. It was ok.

A previous comment about lack of originality and too much social justice performance is agreeable. It really is hard to make a good show when you're busy checking virtue-signalling boxes

[ThePublius]

Nostalgia:

Time Tunnel
Journey to the Bottom of the Sea
Fantastic Voyage (Rachel Welch!)
The Outer Limits

Supermarionation:
Super Car
Thunderbirds

[WuzYoungOnceToo]

Time Tunnel
Journey to the Bottom of the Sea
Fantastic Voyage (Rachel Welch!)
The Outer Limits

Land of the Giants
Lost in Space (OK, space camp...not really sci-fi, but still...)

[SRG2]

Time Tunnel

Lee Meriwether. 'Nuff said.

[ThePublius]

She was a great Catwoman.

[SRG2]

Indeed, as was Julie Newmar. And much as I love Michelle Pfeiffer, Julie Newmar and Lee Meriwether are equal top of my favourite catwomen.

[ThePublius]

Yes. I also kinda liked Eartha Kitt.

[SRG2]

The full list:
https://people.com/movies/actresses-who-have-played-catwoman/

[Randal]

Both seasons of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency on BBC America are pretty weird and great if you're looking for something unusual.