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Second Amendment Roundup: The Second Amendment Dialogue at Fed Soc's National Convention
"Applying the Text and History Methodology to Looming Second Amendment Battles After Rahimi" was the topic of a session on November 16 at the Federalist Society's 2024 National Lawyers Convention. You can listen to the remarks here.
The moderator was Sixth Circuit Judge Amul Thapar, author of the delightful book The People's Justice: Clarence Thomas and the Constitutional Stories that Define Him. The panel featured three leading voices in the Second Amendment space.
Speaker Mark W. Smith is a Senior Fellow at the Ave Maria School of Law and Host of the Four Boxes Diner Second Amendment Channel. (That refers to the four boxes of American liberty, the soap box, ballot box, jury box, and cartridge box.)
Smith focused on the text first-history second approach applied by the Supreme Court in Heller and elaborated in Bruen. As the Supreme Court has now taught in some detail in both Bruen and Rahimi, the historical work of understanding the Second Amendment involves examining laws that impacted the right to keep and bear arms historically and asking both "how" and "why" those laws limited the right. Then, as Rahimi makes clear, the question is whether the "principle" underlying those historical laws—the synthesis of "how" and "why" they regulated the right while remaining consistent with it—would, today, justify whatever modern firearm law is at issue in ongoing litigation.
The key question, as Justice Barrett mentioned in her concurrence in Rahimi, and about which Smith spoke at the conference, is what level of generality is the right one to draw these principles? Rahimi itself shows that error lies on either extreme—the Fifth Circuit drew its analogies too narrowly and required a "historical twin," while the government in Rahimi pushed for a rule that would swallow the Amendment whole in permitting the Government to bar firearm possession by anyone judged "irresponsible."
In talking about this problem, Smith suggested a way for courts and litigants to check their homework and make sure they have not drawn too broad of lessons from histories, by comparing them against what he called the "third rails" of the analogical process. (Touching the third rail on a railroad track will electrocute you.) A principle would touch a "third rail" if:
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- The principle is directly contrary to the founding era understanding of the text of the Second Amendment.
- The principle would violate Supreme Court precedent, such as Heller's holding that arms in common use are protected and may not be banned.
- The principle would be based on a concern for criminal misuse rather the rights of the law-abiding (recall the Scalia-Breyer debate in Heller).
- The principle would disregard the purpose of the Amendment to protect the right of self-defense and thwart tyranny, invasion, and criminality.
- The principle would permit restrictions on what were common firearms-related activities at the Founding. In other words, if the Founders engaged in a practice, courts should not endorse a principle that would let the government turn the Founders into felons.
David Thompson, who also presented, is a partner at Cooper & Kirk, which is conducting a large share of the Second Amendment litigation today. Thompson also spoke to the need to check historical principles for error in the level of generality at which they are drawn. He gave, as an example of a regulation with justifications that touch these "third rails," bans on arms in common use.
The D.C. Circuit recently blessed such a ban, and in the process invented the principle that arms "capable of unprecedented lethality" may be banned, regardless of their commonality.
As Thompson pointed out, such a historical principle touches just about every one of the "third rails" identified by Smith. It violates Supreme Court precedent. In Heller, Justice Scalia found such arguments to "border on the frivolous," and specifically held that firearms "in common use" cannot be banned (and Bruen reaffirmed that holding). In fact, the history of firearms development is the search for more lethality and accuracy. People want more effective tools with which to defend themselves. By treating lethality as a bad thing, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit derived a principle that focused on how criminals misuse firearms, not on how law-abiding citizens use them, which violates another "third rail." The Second Amendment, Thompson stated, allows us to live free, not as slaves. Heller teaches us to consider the desirable increased accuracy and lethality for law-abiding citizens, not for criminals. The D.C. handgun ban was based on criminal misuse and disregarded justifiable use by the law-abiding.
The nationwide popularity of the AR-15 rifle illustrates why the common use test is consistent with the true principles underlying the Second Amendment. With 44 million in circulation, it goes without saying that AR-15s are commonly possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes. Of course, the AR-15 is popular precisely because it is a useful tool for self-defense, which is one of the purposes underlying the Second Amendment as well as resisting tyranny. And, to state the obvious, the Founders owned and used a lot of "common" firearms that were also lethal, and they never once thought to do something so self-defeating as to ban the very tools that had freed them from British rule.
Professor William Merkel of the Charleston School of Law, the coauthor, with the late Richard Uviller, of the 2002 book The Militia and the Right to Arms, Or, How the Second Amendment Fell Silent, provided a counterpoint to Smith and Thompson, arguing that the Heller was wrongly decided and that the Second Amendment does not protect an individual right to arms at all.
The Federalist Society's National Lawyers Convention has included a segment on the Second Amendment for several years now, and this one did not disappoint. Hopefully the dialogue will continue.
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The 5 principles illustrate that the term, "gun crazies," exists for a reason. The ones which insist on disregard of societal danger, vigilantism, and increased lethality will someday be recognized as constitutional anathema.
A pointless statement....IF it takes 250 years to get the law right then you are wrong too, you are pretending to be the real interpreter but how likely is that. Thousands of lawyers, 250 years, intense research -- and only you are correct !!!
In the writeup I see no reference to the almost 20 STATE CONSTITUTIONS that preceded the Federal
Article I, section 21 of the Pennsylvania State Constitution states: “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”
Stephen Article 5 of the constitution has not been repealed, gun control advocates are free to propose amending the constitution, but they are not free to just ignore it, anymore.
Ignoring the plain text of the 2nd amendment is the real "constitutional anathema", because it certainly opens the door to ignoring other provisions of the constitution. What's the real difference between NY ignoring the second amendment to ban bearing arms, and Alabama ignoring the first amendment and deciding to establish a church and compel tithing and regular attendance?
Kazinski, it is peculiar, however commonplace, to insist that with only a militia right actually mentioned, everything else gun nuts want is somehow in, "plain text." In invisible ink?
Stephen the text clearly says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
It does not say anything about the rights of the militia, which are non-existent, because Article 1 puts the organized militia firmly under congressional control.
Kazinski, let me help you to be forthright.
You rely on Scalia. Scalia relied on this reasoning: there was an established gun culture at the time of the founding. The 2A mentioned only part of it, thus the unmentioned remainder is also guaranteed by the 2A.
To get to that non-sequitur conclusion, Scalia, of course, had to add a great deal of his own text. If left unadorned, the text actually in the amendment was too sparse even to support an imaginative leap, let alone to erect a legal edifice.
Turns out, the text Scalia added was historical nonsense. The historical record shows the 2A was about a militia right. The other stuff was supported variously, mainly by state constitutions, which differed from state to state.
Scalia did not realize canons of historical research existed. Being supreme, he supposed he was at liberty to say whatever popped into his head. What popped into his head was to imply the text in the state constitutions was of a piece with the text of the 2A, all mashed together. After supreme consideration, Scalia thought that sounded plausible enough. And to you it does; you think it sounds certain.
You like what resulted, and here we are.
You call that textualism, with respect. I call that textualism, too, with derision.
No Stephen, I am relying on US v Miller which was a 9-0 decision handed down in 1939, when Scalia was 3ys old:
“The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. “A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.” And further, that ordinarily, when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.”
That decision was written by Justice McReynolds who was appointed to the court by Woodrow Wilson in 1914. He was born in Tennessee in 1862, so he was well familiar with the gun culture at least from the late 1870’s to the early 1900’s. Before he was on the Supreme Court he was the Attorney General of the United States.
Scalia was careful to keep his opinion in Heller closely aligned with Miller, echoing McReynolds “in common use” formulation that was also echoed in Bruen.
Kazinski — Do you even notice that there is not a syllable in that Miller quotation to disagree with anything I have said, or to posit federal protection for any purpose except a militia purpose for those arms?
I have not argued for a moment that private arms were not protected during the founding era; I explicitly said they were, by state constitutions. I even suppose McReynolds was aware of that. And by the way, those other purposes are still supported, variously, by state constitutions.
But the argument you made, and Scalia made, for which there is still zero historical support, is that the Federal Constitution provided protection to use private arms for purposes other than the militia purpose. The historical record has been ransacked by pro-gun scholars looking for that evidence. If anything like it had ever turned up, it would have been the first citation in Heller, which would have been a much shorter opinion. None of the rest of Scalia's historically misbegotten blather would have been needed.
Go ahead and find that historical evidence if you think you can. You will be celebrated if you succeed.
What Rahimi demonstrated was that the only Justice who signed onto the Bruen opinion who actually meant any of it in a principled way was Thomas himself.
I'm not sure that you can actually abstract any consistent principle from Rahimi, because it wasn't based off a consistent principle. You had 3 members of the majority who'd uphold essentially any gun control law whatsoever, because they want the 2nd amendment erased from the Constitution. So long as 2 members of the Bruen majority don't like the consequences of upholding the 2nd amendment in a particular case, they won't, and the law in question will be upheld.
If I were forced to come up with a principle that would fit this unprincipled decision, it would be something like,
"If the law applies to people who would obviously be convicted if they were charged with a crime of violence, the Court will permit them to be treated as though they had already been convicted."
But this principle will not capture the Court's future behavior, because Rahimi was a result of a lack of principle, not of a new principle. So the Court will likely invent new exceptions to the 2nd amendment as it encounters fresh situations where at least 2 of the members of the Bruen majority don't feel like upholding the 2nd amendment, potentially a different 2 members for each challenge.
In particular, the Bruen history reasoning would be utterly fatal to the NFA, which of course had no prior analog. But there's no freaking way the present Court is going to return to Americans our right to own military arms.
At most we might see the Court ruling against the near ban on suppressors; That scarcely would even survive rational basis, US laws discouraging their use are really an outlier in the world, countries far more hostile to gun ownership than the US do not restrict their use, because they're considered safety equipment that reduces the risk of hearing damage.
brett - In my view Rahimi creates two conflicts
Your point that the restriction in Rahimi's case was without due process or with sufficient proof / evidenciary hearing etc is valid. a common example is wife and/or girl friend gets restraining order which are somewhat routinely granted with out much evidence presented would be sufficient to bar a person from otherwise lawful gun possession.
On the other hand, Holbrook has a one or two page discussion on misinterpretation of a colonial era law that did ban possession of gun by a person who was wielding the gun in a threatening manner. My apologies for forgetting the name of the law (nottingham, hamilton or similar olde english sounding name).
My gripe isnt with Rahimi being barred from owning / possessing guns (which he should have been), but the lack of due process to determine if he should be barred .
Right, it was totally about the lack of due process, Rahimi was a bad dude.
As I recall, the founding era law in question actually required the person to put up a bond to carry a gun in public, which would be forfeited if they repeated the offense, but had no impact on their continued right to own firearms, or possess them on their own property. So it wasn't honestly analogous to the law they nailed Rahimi under.
The majority took laws that disarmed people if they were convicted of serious crimes, and laws that placed some modest restrictions on carry without a conviction, and mashed them together to approve of a modern law that disarmed people without a conviction. And I think the majority knew quite well what they were up to, even if they weren't honest enough to admit it.
Rahimi did not raise a due process argument.
No, I perfectly well realize that. But due process is the only basis on which he could have prevailed; The infringement of his 2nd amendment rights would have been legitimate after a criminal trial, the problem is that it was imposed by a civil process.
Thus, it is a due process issue.
If the problem is due process, why are you complaining about the second amendment analysis?
Nobody disputes that your 2nd amendment rights can be taken away after SOME process. The problem is that by allowing them to be taken away by civil process, they're not treating it like an actual constitutional right, and they're not actually following the test they laid out in Bruen.
Under what precedent, text, or authority to you assert the the only process that counts as due process is criminal procedure?
Seems to me there are lots and lots of examples of rights being curtailed without a criminal trial.
Civil penalties by administrative agencies, tax appeals, attorney's fees, veteran's benefits are all property rights and don't go through criminal process.
There are torts to vindicate a right as well.
You're not describing the law as it's ever been.
I'm sorry, but when your examples are civilly adjudicated, do you entirely lose your property rights, the way Rahimi totally lost his RKBA as a result of a civil adjudication? When you go through a civil defamation trial, is the end result a vow of silence? Do stalking trials result in home arrest?
If he'd been told he could not remove his firearms from his home for a while, (Without posting a bond.) THAT would have been perfectly consistent with founding era 'history and tradition'. Or if he'd entirely lost his RKBA after a felony conviction, that, too, would have been consistent.
The problem is that he was subjected to the 'history and tradition' consequences of the felony conviction, after a mere civil process.
The disconnect between process and consequence is out of proportion for a RIGHT, but perfectly reasonable for a PRIVILEGE.
You're making another arbitrary distinction between partial and entire.
I don't think anyone analyzes rights like that. Imagine if Freedom of Speech was so analyzed.
What about civil commitment? Or parole hearings?
The disconnect between process and consequence is out of proportion for a RIGHT, but perfectly reasonable for a PRIVILEGE.
You just assert stuff like it's a principle. You just made that up. It feeling right to you has zero legal currency.
I mean, seriously, you don't see any relevant distinction between "You can't take your guns out of the house" and "you can't own guns at all"?
You think a civil stalking trial could result in the defendant entirely losing their freedom to travel, rather than just being told to avoid the complainant?
A defamation lawsuit could result in the defendant being ordered to just say nothing whatsoever to anybody, just totally STFU?
You think there's no difference at all between what a civil trial can result in, and a criminal trial, that revolves around whether rights can be totally lost civilly?
Really, what's going on here is that there's this constitutional right you don't like, so you think it's appropriate to treat it like an ordinary privilege. That's all.
Rahimi didn’t totally lose his right to keep and bear arms, just his right to possess (most) firearms for a limited time (a restriction, I’ll repeat, that he expressly consented to). Or do you think that the Second Amendment doesn’t offer any protection for non-firearms weapons? Was Caetano v. Massachusetts wrongly decided?
I think the 2nd amendment guarantees a right, and that the extent to which a right can be infringed by a civil as opposed to criminal trial is very different, which is exactly the difference between civil and criminal. Civil gets less due process because it is allowed less consequences for rights.
Bellmore — I mean, seriously, you don't see any relevant distinction between "The Federal Constitution protects a militia right," and "State constitutions protect other rights"?
You can be committed to a secure mental institution through a completely civil process. Do you have a constitutional right to bring a gun with you while you're there?
Yes, that's true, and it demonstrates that 100% consistency has never been an attribute of American law. Which is no excuse to be even worse about it; Maybe instead we should allow people more process before they can be committed!
The statute at issue doesn’t apply unless the restrained person had a chance to appear at an evidentiary hearing: Rahimi did appear at one, where he agreed to have the order (and its firearms restriction) imposed. What additional process was he due?
Sir John Knight's Case.
Sigh. No, it demonstrated that you misunderstood Bruen. Just because they did not mean what Brett Bellmore wished they had meant does not mean that they did not "actually mean any of it in a principled way."
Right, the only member of the Court who somehow failed to understand Bruen was the opinion's author...
It’s the opinion of the court, not a single justice, and what matters is what is says, not what the author “meant”. But in any case, it’s not a matter of either side “fail[ing] to understand” Bruen. Bruen didn’t fully answer the question of how to evaluate similarity when conducting its prescribed historical analysis. Reasonable people can disagree in good faith on the correct answer to that.
Noscitur tends to read Bruen more kindly than DMN and I do.
But no one but you and maybe Thomas reads an opinion's precedential value as only what the named opinion author declares it to be in subsequent opinions.
The best way to evaluate any proposal is to "change the variables"; that is place it in a different context. So let's do that with one of these points:
"The principle would be based on a concern for criminal misuse rather the rights of the law-abiding (recall the Scalia-Breyer debate in Heller)."
O.K., if we do that, then we should not outlaw heroin, letting the concern over criminal use override the rights of the "law-abiding" to properly self-medicate their physical pain.
Or, there was a story this morning in West Virginia MetroNews, about the state auditor reacting to the mayor and treasurer of a small town being charged with embezzling a little less than $200K. He proposes additional financial monitoring to prevent fraud. But why should "law-abiding" municipalities and their employees have to deal with all that paperwork and surrender their inalienable right to monitor their own financial affairs merely to prevent and deter crime?
https://wvmetronews.com/2024/11/26/state-auditor-jb-mccuskey-reacts-to-two-fort-gay-city-officials-being-charged-in-embezzlement-scheme/
Or why should there be speed limits? If someone can drive safely at 150 mph, why should the fact that there are others who cannot limit his or her inalienable right to drive as they please?
Well, we shouldn't outlaw heroin. Drugs were legal for most of the country's history, remember. It wasn't until 1914 that the federal government did anything like banning drugs, and even then, as it was understood that the federal government lacked any enumerated power to ban things, they had just taxed drugs heavily.
It wasn't until 1970 that the federal government became sufficiently indifferent to the constitutional limits on its own powers to actually BAN a drug.
Your small town analogy fails because local governments are entirely creatures of state government, and lack any rights against state government. (Save in the few states that have 'home rule' constitutional provisions.) The state could tell local governments to do daily handstands and it wouldn't be a constitutional violation.
1. I don’t think Vandalia said anything about the federal government.
2. Vandalia did, on the other hand, mention the burden on individual municipal employees.
3. I noticed you skipped the third example.
Other than that, great comment!
The difference, of course, is that there’s no constitutionally-protected right to use heroin, have your finances monitors by your employer, or drive really fast.
But if the government entity in question lacks the power to tell you want to do in an area, you never even reach the question of whether it's a right, it's out side their reach anyway.
I don’t disagree, but that principle has nothing to do with the point Vandalia is making, so going there is just a way of ducking the issue. Every state has laws against heroin too.
“there’s no constitutionally-protected right to”
Perhaps we should be using the lens of what government has the power to do instead of what people who formed and sustain that government have the right to do.
Our governments are supposed to have only the enumerated powers granted to them. I understand that ship has sailed, so to speak, but it can be navigated back there.
I’m not sure that’s particularly helpful in this instance. State governments generally have the power to make certain conduct illegal, unless there’s some rule saying they can’t. The U.S. constitution has such a rule that covers guns (the second amendment), but no equivalent for drugs, financial monitoring by an employer, or speeding.
States certainly do have those powers regarding narcotics, motor vehicle offenses (they own the roads), financial monitoring. The Fed gov does not.
Glad you agree that the Second is a prohibition on the Fed powers in that space.
" . . not sure [Tenth Amendment perspective is] particularly helpful in this instance" give it some thought. The next time your mind reaches for the bucket of "but plaintiff has the right to," try some "but government has no power to" instead.
Sorry, I didn't realize at first that you were new to using the internet.
Like a lot of other internet forums, the discussions on this site work by having people post comments, and then having other people reply to them. See the little dotted line next to your comment, and then how mine is indented a little? That's how you can tell that I'm replying to you specifically. This helps keep discussions comprehensible and sensible instead of having people just randomly say anything that's on their mind.
If you go back and look, you'll note that I was replying to a poster using the name "Vandalia". (Lots of people on the internet use "screennames" rather than their real identities.) "Vandalia" was making a point that has nothing to do with which level of government is imposing the restriction at issue (and indeed, is explicitly not talking about the federal government in at least two of the three instances). Now that you know how this formatting works, you can see why any reference to (as you put it), the "Tenth Amendment perspective" is a non-sequitur.
Congratulations on making your first step into the online world! I know it's intimidating, but there's all kinds of cool stuff here: I think you're going to really like it. Happy surfing ☺
Lousy example, because there is no "right to keep and shootup heroin" in the constitution.
But we should legalize heroin for the simple reason that even now with it illegal just about everywhere, nobody who wants it has any problem obtaining it. In fact the street price of a dose of fentanyl is 3$ or less in many major American cities, whereas a cocktail of perfectly legal alcohol will set me back a minimum of 10$ and a microbrew 6-8$.
Your other example of one branch of government setting regulations for another subsidiary branch of government also misses the mark.
And of course speeding laws only apply on government owned roads, not private racetracks, where its long been established that driving is a privilege not a right. And even colonial era roads, as well as British roads, were often toll roads with fees and regulations that were required so their is an extensive history from the founding era of such analogs.
O.K., if we do that, then we should not outlaw heroin, letting the concern over criminal use override the rights of the “law-abiding” to properly self-medicate their physical pain.
Okay. Let's narrow criminal laws in that context! I'm game!
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-constitution-of-the-war-on-drugs-9780197685457?cc=us&lang=en&
As people have noted, however, the argument involves a constitutional right (in their view), which requires a heavier burden of proof to regulate than the average law.
Vandalia — What’s the point to laboriously analyze actual context, if the best way to do an evaluation is to make up a hypothetical different context, and then use that to draw your conclusion?
Your last sentence exposes the silliness of the whole argument as only when the 150MPH driver kills someone is your point overturned!!!
That is what is wrong with your accustomed way of arguing. You your self would throw a fit if you saw someone driving 150mph and they dared answser you with your view.
You must be an academic of some sort.
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