The Volokh Conspiracy
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Courts Shouldn't Rely on Election Returns to Give Trump a Blank Check for Policies Motivated by Unconstitutional Discrimination
The key issue in such cases is the motivation of the official who adopted by the policy, not who voted for him.

During Donald Trump's first administration, his travel ban policy barring almost all migration from several Muslim-majority nations was challenged in court on the grounds that it was unconstitutional because motivated by anti-Muslim bias. Co-blogger Josh Blackman argues similar arguments should not be accepted by courts in the next Trump administration because polling data indicates Trump made significant gains among Hispanic and Muslim voters in the 2024 election. Judges should not take his advice. The key issue in cases where seemingly neutral policies are challenged for having unconstitutional discriminatory motives is the motivation of the people who adopted them, not the backgrounds of the people who voted for them.
In the travel ban case, the main evidence against Trump was not who voted for him in the 2016 election, but his own repeated statements indicating that his intention was to target Muslims for exclusion, plus the extreme weakness of the supposed "security" rationales for the ban. This should have led courts to strike down the travel ban based on longstanding precedent holding that evidence of unconstitutional discriminatory motive (such as discrimination based on race, ethnicity, or religion) should lead to invalidation unless the government can show it would have adopted the same policy even in the absence of such illicit motivations. Ultimately, a closely divided 5-4 Supreme Court upheld the travel ban on the grounds that the executive deserves special deference on immigration policy that would not be extended in almost any other context. Elsewhere, I have argued this double standard is badly misguided. Be that as it may, no one on either side of that litigation argued the issue turns on survey data, election returns, or the ethnic and religious composition of the electorate that voted for Trump.
Voters are not the ones who adopt these policies. Moreover, the fact that a candidate has supporters from a given ethnic or religious group doesn't mean he cannot or will not adopt policies biased against them. He might, for example, do that to satisfy other (to him, more crucial) constituencies. Democrats, for example, routinely get strong support from Asian-Americans (far higher percentages than Trump got from Hispanics or Muslims in 2024), but also support various racial preferences that discriminate against them. Such voting patterns also don't necessarily show that members of the groups in question actually believe the candidate isn't biased against them. Many Hispanics and Muslims likely voted for Trump on "lesser evil" grounds, or because of anger at the Democrats at the state of the economy.
Of course, Josh Blackman's ultimate position may be that courts should ignore evidence of motive entirely. On that view, if a policy is facially neutral, it should be upheld, regardless of the possible motivations behind it.
In addition to going against many decades of precedent, that position would have terrible consequences. As I explained in a post written during the travel ban litigation:
If the Supreme Court rules that campaign statements cannot be considered, that would create a very dangerous precedent. Politicians could openly advocate discriminatory policies during the campaign, then rely on more careful and euphemistic phrasing after they take office. On the campaign trail, they can openly say they want to target blacks, Muslim, atheists, Evangelical Christians, or some other minority group. Afterward, they can adopt a policy targeting some seemingly neutral characteristic that closely correlates with membership in the group in question. And, after taking office, they can stick to carefully scripted official justifications for their actions that elide the true purposes.
I would add that one can use facially neutral criteria that correlate with group membership to target almost any racial, ethnic, or religious minority. Policymakers who seek to discriminate against blacks in hiring could reject applicants from majority-black neighborhoods or graduates of historically black colleges. As long as the policy in question doesn't explicitly reference race, but merely enumerates neighborhoods or colleges, you're in the clear! Want to exclude Orthodox Jews? Adopt a policy barring the hiring of people who refuse to work on Saturdays (the Jewish sabbath).
Clever policymakers can easily come up with similar facially neutral, but pretextual ways to target almost any minority group. Indeed, such strategies were repeatedly used by state and local governments to discriminate against blacks after the courts struck down open racially discriminatory policies.
It's worth noting that excluding evidence of discriminatory motive from judicial scrutiny would shield discriminatory policies condemned by the right, as well as those opposed by the left. For example, universities and selective public high schools with left-leaning administrations sometimes try to use facially neutral admissions criteria to to keep down the percentage of Asian and white students [my wife, Alison Somin, was one of the lawyers representing the Asian-American plaintiffs challenging one such policy, in a case that almost reached the Supreme Court]. If evidence of motive is excluded, educational institutions would have a virtual blank check to use seemingly neutral criteria to get around the Supreme Court's 2022 decision barring most racial preferences in college admissions.
Indeed, defenders of such preferences could adopt Josh Blackman's election-returns argument. After all, the left-wing Democrats who enact these policies often win majorities of Asian voters, and they get large percentages of the white vote, too, even if a minority. Many of the relevant policymakers are even whites or Asians themselves.
In the travel ban case, the Supreme Court ultimately did not rule that campaign statements or other evidence of discriminatory motivation should be ignored. Instead, as noted above, it based its ruling on the supposed special deference due to the executive on immigration policy. That was a bad ruling. But a holding indicating that evidence of discriminatory motive is barred more generally would have been much worse.
In sum, election returns should not influence judicial evaluations of possibly discriminatory policies. If such cases arise in the second Trump administration, as they did in the first, the focus should be on motives of the officials who actually adopted the policy in question.
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Would that be like the new york state constitution amendment that enshrines discrimination into the state constitution.
Ilya, Congress has the power to impeach, not the judiciary. If somebody else could do it if they were President, Trump can do it as President. Period. The judiciary simply isn't entitled to strip him of legitimate Presidential powers because they think he's a bad man.
Perhaps more to the point, they're not GOING to do it. I don't think they're taking your advice, and I know they don't agree with your take on the Constitution. I think you know that, too.
Do you think this post was about stripping Trump of legitimate powers?
That's not anything from the OP; that's from you. And legitimate is, as always, whatever Brett decides it is.
Which is how authoritarians think.
Yes, if you need to reach questions of motive, then it was about the exercise of legitimate powers. If it wasn't a legitimate Presidential power, you wouldn't NEED to appeal to motives. Motive is irrelevant for acts a public official doesn't have the power to take in the first place.
This is just, "I think Trump is a bad man, so, even if the public stupidly elected him, the courts should prohibit him from using the powers of his office!"
The OP isn’t about whether the presidential powers of executive orders and rules are facially legitimate (they are). It’s whether a specific application of an executive order or rule violates the EPC clause. And if such an order or rule is facially neutral, motive can establish it as violative of the equal protection. It’s exactly the same as it is for statutes.
Yes, exactly: the OP is about finding excuses for activist courts to order Donald Trump to stop implementing the legitimate public policies he was elected to implement.
Tell Sarcastr0 that, I'm perfectly clear on that point.
The problem is that the 'Muslim' ban was foreign policy, and there's a strong case that foreign policy isn't even subject to the EPC in the first place.
Strong cases (as defined by Brett) shouldn’t get tested before the judiciary.
As Noscitur noted, you were begging the question. Now you're excluding the middle between ‘legitimate use of power’ and ‘strong case for a legitimate use of power.’
Needless to say, this swings in the direction of executive authority.
Because you’re an authoritarian with your guy in power.
The pretzels of logic you will be making to defend Trump’s majestic authority right to power will be a sight to see.
You do know where the list of countries for the "Muslim ban" came from, don't you? So this isn't a partisan question, the listed states simply were terrorist sponsors whose vetting of immigrants could not be trusted.
Internally the Constitution prohibits a lot of things that can actually be based on objective reasoning. Like, we have to pretend that Scientology is a religion rather than a protection racket. But the Constitution hardly binds the government at all in its interactions with non-citizens outside the country.
Or else Democratic Presidents would have been in real trouble over their casual use of the military to carry out hits on foreign nationals, outside of declared wars.
Oh, I was here and remember the saga of the Muslim ban. The revisions to make it not slam-dunk facially invalid. The open question of whether animus analysis applied.
Do you remember? It was not some super duper legally legit thing that everyone but the libs and Somin thought was normal Presdentin'. Which is how you are now presenting it. Trying to retcon the reality.
You would think that as someone skeptical of the government, you'd be all for Constitutionally testing anything questionable the executive does.
But, of course, that does not apply to Trump. With Trump you're worried about every single check on his power.
The Constitution hardly binds the government at all in its interactions with non-citizens outside the country.
1) This wasn't 'the government' this was the executive. They are not the same thing.
2) That's not in the text, which is postured as negative rights. Not that anyone would mistake you for a textualist these days.
3) That was not the clear precedent before this, and the Court did not avoid applying scrutiny in Trump v. Hawaii.
You're wrong on the law, and wrong on history.
And wrong about what Prof. Somin is arguing for.
Here's my prediction: Somin will lose at the Supreme court, which does not at all share his views about immigration.
You've now backpeddaled twice.
Once from 'legitimate' to 'strong case'
And now to 'won't win at the Supreme Court.'
What's legal does not depend on reading the tea leaves about what the Supreme Court would probably say; it depends on what they have said.
You can’t remember a “Muslim ban” because there was NO Muslim ban. No order issued by President Trump mentioned Islam or any other religion for that matter. Your gaslighting BS has run its course.
No order issued by President Trump mentioned Islam or any other religion for that matter.
It didn't even ban travel to the U.S. from most Muslim-majority countries (only 14% of them), and the number of Muslims impacted by the ban was less than 12% of the world Muslim population outside of the U.S..
1) It was immigration policy, not foreign policy.
2) "The EPC doesn't apply to this type of case" is a very different argument than the one Somin was addressing.
Actually Trump v US was pretty clear about sharply restricting inquiries about Presidential motives when evaluating presidential conduct.
Besides I imagine Presidents lie about their motives all the time, things like saying they are motivated by fighting inflation when passing a climate change spending bill to cite one example.
"And if such an order or rule is facially neutral, motive can establish it as violative of the equal protection. It’s exactly the same as it is for statutes."
That may be the case law, but logically speaking, equal protection of the law has either been denied, or it hasn't.
If someone wanted to deny equal protection, but didn't succeed in doing so, then there's no violation. And if someone did not mean to deny equal protection, but did so, there pure motives are irrelevant.
Analogizing to the first amendment, Scalia said it this way in a concurrence: "Had the Hialeah City Council set out resolutely to suppress the practices of Santeria, but ineptly adopted ordinances that failed to do so, I do not see how those laws could be said to "prohibi[t] the free exercise" of religion. Nor, in my view, does it matter that a legislature consists entirely of the purehearted, if the law it enacts in fact singles out a religious practice for special burdens. Had the ordinances here been passed with no motive on the part of any councilman except the ardent desire to prevent cruelty to animals (as might in fact have been the case), they would nonetheless be invalid."
Brett advocating for the return of Jim Crow because he thinks he can logic away history. We tried evaluating executive acts without regard to motive and it. . . did not go great. Turns out sometimes people can do things that look neutral on paper but aren't in practice!
I am NOT advocating for the return of Jim Crow. I'm advocating for rational immigration policy, and not hobbling the lawful authority of Presidents based on the partisan animus of their political foes.
Somin attributes animus on Trump's part, as a result of his own animus towards Trump, largely derived from the fact that Trump's signature issue is enforcing immigration laws that Somin hates. It's as simple as that.
Not surprised that sounds simple to you.
Brett is spot on here. Fortunately, the Supreme Court has already ruled, in US v. Trump, that no court may entertain inquiries into the motivation for any President’s actions if they are within the scope of his powers.
Kind of begging the question here. Surely Prof. Somin’s entire point is that these aren’t legitimate powers of the presidency?
You are absolutely the last person who should be throwing shade at advancing a view of the constitution that’s out of fashion with the judiciary. Especially since most of the judges involved in the travel ban litigation actually did agree with Prof. Somin (even if a majority on the Supreme Court did not).
Judge shopping: How does it work?
How did Hawaii engage in judge shopping? By filing its lawsuit in Hawaii?
How do Leftist crazies judge shop? By filing in Hawaii.
Where should the state of Hawaii files its lawsuits?
NAL. How does this argument reconcile with textualism/4 corners of the page, etc.? I thought pre-enactment statements and so on were to be looked at only if the text of the law/policy wasn’t clear?
Doesn’t this approach potentially create situations where the same exact law/wording can be ok in one scenario but improper in another? That doesn’t seem like a good idea. And doesn’t this also leave us of having the courts needing to assess motives (not every President will be as dumb as Trump or Biden in saying out loud what should be kept quiet.)
That is the trouble with attacking laws based on inferring motives. Justice Scalia used to regularly explain the folly of such reasoning. Too bad he is not still here to explain it.
< Justice Scalia used to regularly explain the folly of such reasoning
...because it's so much easier to discriminate, or pass unconstitutional legislation (e.g., teaching of Creationism) if you don't inquire into motives even if the motives are out there in the open.
Some years back, some school forced kids to recite some Muslim prayer, using the argument it was teaching about religion and culture, and not a religious thing directly. Some here were full throated in support of it.
But show a 10 Commandments, nope! Motive and hurting your opponent undergirds all pseudo-rational thought.
For the record, no public school student should be forced to recite any religion’s prayers or tenets in the form worshippers do. Nor should either be displayed in such a manner.
Were they forced to recite the Muslim prayer daily?
Leaving aside the alarming fire that has burst out in Ilya’s hair, the legal point is straightforward. The motivation of the President or his acolytes is relevant when the law asks what motivates them to do what they are doing, and irrelevant when it only asks what they are doing. So presumably the specific answer will vary from case to case.
The law does not ask what motivates them. There is no law that says that a President cannot have a bias against Moslem foreigners.
And only Republicans are subject to the awesome mindreading powers of leftists in the judiciary, got it.
Correct. And since the law in this case is the equal protection clause, we turn to that clause, which says that no State shall deny to any person the equal protection of the laws.
See. It says nothing about motivation, so that's . . . uhh, wait, it doesn't say anything about the federal government at all here . . . uhh, am I looking at the right equal protection clause here or is there another one hiding somewhere . . . ?
The absurd result of this argument is that the exact same policy can be adopted by two administrations, but one is Constitutional because it has the right (or at least neutral) motivation, but the other is wrong because it has the wrong motivation.
Such a doctrine is ripe for judicial mischief.
Discriminatory policies should be judged based on their content primarily. Motivation can play a part, but a small part, in deciding the issue.
Yeah, that's already the law. Animus.
For discrimination, and for free exercise.
And, this is neither here nor there, but in looking for any recent developments, I found a (former?) Conspirator wrote a survey of animus a couple of years ago!
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4437498
He's still listed on the "Who we are" page.
Animus didn't seem to bother you in nigh infinite initiatives to hurt a political opponent using the power of government.
And in the case where political animus was allowed, impeachment, you all joyously bragged how it was political and had that honor.
When I say Jan. 6th was bad, but far and away the biggest threat to democracy was this almost decade long effort to turn the investigative and prosecutorial power of government against an opponent, I meant it.
He's bad, should not be president. But not at the cost of one of the primary protections against encroaching dictatorship.
You guys. All for power. Lie it isn't happening.
Krayt — On Trump, you've got the stimulus–response stuff backward. Political attacks on Trump were not stimulated by the Ds. The stimulation came almost entirely from erstwhile Trump supporters, political allies, henchmen, and Trump's own utterances, plus violence, of course. That, and from grand jury indictments.
The Ds were no doubt pleased to attempt to squeeze partisan political advantage from that cornucopia of goads. You demand they dismiss it out of hand. Why?
Beyond that is a larger question. Why do you keep hacking away at politics—the Constitution's mandated method to conduct public affairs—as if politics ought to lie dormant while public affairs roil and degenerate?
As President, Trump pushed neglect, mendacity, corruption, and fecklessness into unexplored territory. On that, history will one day agree, because a lasting record to prove it will survive, get collated, and interpreted.
What will look perplexing in retrospect, and out of place to the historians of future eras, will be the question how so many came to expect political comity while Trump disruptions cascaded and multiplied. Explaining that will turn into a bountiful historical industry, and likely an enduring one, with diverse explanations eluding consensus. How could it have got so big?
He isn't The Lesser for nothing, BL. Common sense is not his forte.
Deporting people who should never have been allowed here is not discriminatory. Its the law.
Ilya is in for a rough 4 years. He says in his last post, "I readily admit that a party that ran on a platform adopting all my views would get clobbered." Yes, the Democrats got clobbered. Elitists and out of touch university professors got clobbered too.
The smart money says the GOP will lose one or other chamber within 2 years, and the courts will be able to run blocking patterns for at least that long.
There will be much squealing from the libs and progs (progs was corrected by the auto spell to Profs - which is fun) but Trumpkins will discover that the highlight of the 2nd Trump term was Election Night.
Which is fair enough since two thirds of the point of voting for the GOP is to keep the even more ghastly Dems out of power. Don’t expect anything good to happen, just slightly less bad.
Pretty much. I think the 8 last years are a sign that the pendulum is not only swinging farther, but also faster. Unless one or both parties starts to move back toward the middle we will likely see incumbent advantage become incumbent disadvantage and more 1-term or nonconsecutive presidents.
2016: GOP wins the trifecta.
2018: GOP loses the House.
2020: Dems win the trifecta.
2022: Dems lose the House.
2024: GOP wins the trifecta.
Would not be surprised to see this pattern continue for a while.
In my admittedly biased view, Republicans lose the trifecta because they don't act on their campaign promises, and Democrats because they do. 😉 Hopefully Trump will rigorously test this theory for me.
That is exactly it = ...Republicans lose the trifecta because they don’t act on their campaign promises
That is exactly what happened during '45'. I think the addition of Susie Wiles will help a lot in making things run smoother and faster for '47'.
Prepare to see a lot of clips of deported gang members, murderers, rapists and other reprobates, augmented by scenes of a border wall, for the next 4 years. That was the a top of mind issue for the electorate.
Those are concrete, and 'see-able' by the electorate.
The Republicans, with total power, forget about cutting budgets. It would be sweet if they did something about it.
They never do. Cutting the budget is purely a policy-in-opposition.
Once you can borrow to buy votes, anybody who'd actually cut spending ends up back in the private sector. It's a basic failure mode for democracy.
True, but what provides a big assist to getting the trifecta is the other party losing it 2 years earlier.
But I think this cycle there is no doubt Trump's coattails helped him get two other seats in the Senate. The late surges that elected Moreno and McCormick, and nearly flipped WI, MI, and AZ were clearly due to Trump's momentem.
It's not the job of the courts to run political interference for Democrats until they can win or steal an election.
FYI.
And possibly one or two constitutional scholars would agree with you (though by no means all.) But wishing doesn't make it so, and we will discover once again that going to a single judge division in Texas is not the only way to find a friendly judge.
Correct again. The only way out of this mess is to drastically reduce the centralization of power in the federal government, and that's not going to happen just from sending more Republicans to DC. The swamp already strikes back with Thune becoming Senate leader.
…and what nailed that down for Thune was Trump deciding to add Senate Majority Leader to his list of titles and therefore forgo the entire Article 1 Senate Advice and Consent process…
…immediately followed by announcing his first use of that new title would to skip all that silly Senate nomination and committee hearings/votes and floor votes and stuff and appoint a Fox News host unqualified to run one of Trump’s golf courses (maybe its caddie room) as Defense Secretary.
Good to know only 13 current Senators think it would be a great idea to appoint Putin’s dream choice to lead the U.S. Armed Forces.
Maybe it’s just a ploy to make the idea of Tulsi Gabbard as Director of National Intelligence (and Tommy Tuberville as SECDEF?) sound almost normal!
ADDENDUM: And now Matt Gaetz for Attorney General tops even Hegseth.
Exploding heads to follow. Film at 11.
Ilya is in for a rough 4 years.
You all are. You just don't know it yet. Let's just hope that it's only four years.
Is Amsterdam still burning?
You’re assuming intentionally but wrongly that Ilya is a Democrat. It’s easy enough to devise policies that neither main party would agree to
I assume that Ilya is functionally a Democrat, because he really only gets exercised over Republican policies he disagrees with. Sure, there are plenty of Democratic policies he theoretically disagrees with, but he just doesn't seem to care about those.
For instance, Democrats are radically hostile to the 2nd amendment of the Constitution. If they had their way that amendment would be essentially written out of the Constitution. Ilya disagrees with this, of course, but not enough to let it influence his views of Presidential politics.
In the end, there's only one issue that Ilya really cares about, and we all know what it is: Open borders. If you're good on that, he'll tolerate little things like wanting to abolish a basic civil liberty. If you're bad on it, he doesn't care what you're good on.
I assume that Ilya is functionally a Democrat
Why would you even bother putting him in a box like this?
Good lord you're terminally partisan.
He could have said, "A pox on both your houses!" and advocated sitting it out or voting for Oliver. He didn't.
He instead endorsed Harris.
The foot voting stuff is all about devolving authority away from the federal government.
So is rational ignorance.
NIMBY cuts across both parties.
You're straining against what he actually thinks so you can label him a Democrat. For what utility?
Again, this supposed libertarian endorsed Harris.
If you wanted to call me functionally a Republican, I'd have no argument with that. I AM functionally a Republican, even though there are things about Republican policy that I don't like on libertarian grounds.
I decided to align with the GOP because the LP had become a futile joke, and the GOP was more likely to leave me the hell alone. (To the limited extent either major party would, anyway.)
Somin is aligned with the Democratic party because the LP has become a futile joke, and the Democratic party is more likely to give him open borders.
But at least I admit I'm aligned with the Republican party. Somin is coy about being a Democrat.
You say that who you support in 2024 determines what party you are part of. And libertarians must support Trump.
You are increasingly bad at living in a republic with other people.
Yes, who you support on election day demonstrates which party you are functionally part of. What is controversial about that?
I didn't say that libertarians had to support Trump, though I personally decided he was the lesser evil, and Harris enough worse that I needed to vote for the lesser evil. I explicitly said he could have just sat the election out, or voted Libertarian. Or written in John Rawls, I suppose.
But he didn't, he endorsed Harris. That, yes, makes him functionally a Democrat, and says a lot about his revealed preferences for policy: The policies where Harris was worse than Trump don't matter a lot to him. The one where Harris was better than Trump, at least in his view, means everything to him.
And that latter view, I think, dictates his opinion of Trump, and how credulous he is of every accusation against him. If Trump's signature issue were opening the border,
he'd have lost every primarySomin would likely be all presumption of innocence about him, not presumption of guilt.Because I think we all know that he cares so much about open borders that it dominates every other consideration.
Brett: Which party has traditionally been more pro free trade and free markets?
The GOP more for free markets internally, and maybe the Democrats for free trade externally.
Illlllllllya has no principles except fascism. He's sad he can't implement it.
There was no discrimination in Trump original Bad Country Ban (had nothing to do with Muslims because other Muslim countries weren't banned) and there is no discrimination now.
Sorry Illlllllllllllya
Whatever one thinks of Trump’s proposed policies, Blackman’s argument seems like a very week one. Indeed, it seems to rely on the same sort of identity essentialism that we correctly decry when it’s used to justify wokery: the assumption that Hispanics, Muslims, etc., base their presidential votes primarily on their ethnic or religious census box.
If I’m Hispanic, apparently, I have to vote first and foremost as a Hispanic. I may be wealthy, but I have to vote for the tax-the-rich candidate who says nice things about my ethnicity rather than the tax-cutting candidate who disses my heritage. I may want to be a ride-share driver, but I’ve got to vote for the pro-union candidate who supports union efforts to keep me from working, because they flatter the country that my great-grandparents left to come to the US, rather than the right-to-work candidate who decries illegal border-crossers.
This is Somin, not Blackman. Even without the name attached, you should have noticed that inside of a couple sentences.
Eh, never mind. Posted before my first cup of coffee.
Trump's "Muslim" ban was aimed at terrorist supporting nations like Iran, Libya and Syria.
These countries have the largest Muslim population by number.
Trump did not ban Muslims from any of these countries.
Indonesia 242,700,000
Pakistan 233,000,000
India 200,000,000
Bangladesh 150,800,000
It's like Hitler saying kill all Jews and exempting Poland.
Add to that the "muslim ban" included countries well known for their Muslim populations like Venesuela and North Korea. That this imbecile persists with this lie is proof he's only fit for the funny farm with his delusions.
People were pointing that out to him at the time, he didn't care. Any excuse to oppose a restriction on immigration, even immigration from world sponsors of terrorism.
This is a neat trick the Left gets to do.
They get to impugn horrible motives onto you, then use that to declare your policies unlawful. Even if they have the same outcome as a Democrat. But since they have a golden heart, their policies are lawful.
I wish Somin was a bureaucrat with an odd-numbered SSN. Because then he'd be fired once DOGE gets up an running.
Yes. They claim to have amazing mind-reading abilities. No, our courts should not be striking down good laws because of such dubious mind-reading.
But what if there’s actual evidence ?
SCOTUS doesn’t like these forays into the unpleasant details of the sausage making that goes on in the executive and legislative branches) but that doesn’t mean a motivated District Court judge won’t go there. And then assume up a storm if there’s no there there.
Newsflash: politicians lie. They brag. They exaggerate. I discount their words more than the bakery discounts three-day old bread.
So Trump said to some audience he enacted a "Muslim Ban." In fact, he did no such thing, as others have pointed out here. The combined Muslim population of the countries for which no ban was enacted was several times the total population of the United States. It was a Muslim ban like I'm Mao Tse Tung. The best proof is that Obama, whom no one could accuse of being biased against Muslims, enacted almost the same thing.
This whole doctrine Somin is pushing is a pernicious way for some judges to engage in politics.
(BTW, I have argued here that a true Muslim ban violates nothing in the Constitution. It does not establish any religion, since anyone else of any other religion or no religion is still free to enter the country. And it does not abridge free exercise, since it has no effect on people in the US, and foreigners are still free to practice their religion in their home country. But I understand that positions like this are distasteful to many, so they read their personal aversions into the Constitution.)
That's right, it is constitutional to have a Muslim ban.
I discount their words more than the bakery discounts three-day old bread.
That is a good one. I am going to use it. You and BL and DMN and Loki13 are quite inventive with emotional word pictures. I enjoy it a lot.
Just compare how leftists respond to Harris-Biden's illegal college loan writeoff attempts or open-border policies versus Donald Trump's immigration restrictions. It's a study in hypocrisy, where they delight in the former violating the Take Care clause but cannot stand the latter exercising powers delegated by Congress and recognized by courts.
Were you under the impression that Prof. Somin is in favor of student loan forgiveness?
We already know that "Trump doesn't mean it" so if Trump; said that he hated Haitians and was imposing a travel ban on Haiti, his defenders would approve of the ban while denying the motive. Trumpists engage in mind-reading as much as anyhone.
As I believe somebody has said, hypothetical outrages are the best outrages. The best part is not risking being proven wrong.
Let me give you one minor concrete example. When Trump said he wanted to buy Greenland, those of us who mocked him for it were told, he's just joking because the idea was clearly stupid. Of course, when it turned out that he wasn't joking, why then, it was now a great idea.
I don’t recall saying he was just joking. I think I just said that they were unlikely to sell.
But what would be outrageous about buying Greenland, if they had been willing to sell? We bought Alaska, not so long ago.
I wasn't talking about you specifically. This was a general reaction by Trumpists,
But what would be outrageous about buying Greenland,
That is a separate issue from my observations about the reactions of the Trump supporters. Also, except to Confederates, 1867 is a long time ago.
I am not a Trumpist and do not engage in mind-reading. I look at what a policy does and how it's structured. A policy that allows hundreds of millions of Muslims to enter the country is not a "Muslim ban." See how easy that is -- no mind reading required.
But no mind-reading iis required in the case of the ban either, because Trump had actually said explicitly what he was doing. As noted above, you could always argue that what Trump says isn't evidence for what he's thinking.
There is also the point which would never escape you in your professional practice, that you know enough about people to make reasonable deductions about actual motives. If an evangelical legislator says he wishes to broaden the range of scientific hypotheses considered in biology classes and so as a scientific matter he requires that ID be taught alongside evolution, everyone with any competence in the field would know what the real motive was.
He had explicitly stated what he wanted to do, and then informed he couldn't do that, did something else. And your argument is that, having been told he couldn't do one thing in an area, he was bared from doing anything in that area?
You do understand that there was never a Muslim ban, don’t you? President Trump’s order never mentioned Islam (or any other religion). It was obviously not religious discrimination and the S.Ct. upheld it as “facially legitimate and bona fide.”
And grandfather clauses never mentioned blacks (or any other race), but that did not mean that they were not motivated by racial animus.
That is not accurate, though I can see why a computer program that finds words rather than understanding them would think so. What the Supreme Court said was that the justifications advanced by the administration in the litigation were "facially legitimate and bona fide." In other words, it didn't consider what Trump's actual reasons were; it looked only at what he said in court that his reasons were.
No. What they held was that President Trump plainly acted within his statutory authority and the plaintiffs did not demonstrate a likelihood of success on their BS establishment clause challenge. Yeah, I added BS but since you like BS so much I thought it was appropriate.
And, just so to educate you, if that’s possible, it’s even more difficult to view this facially neutral order as a “Muslim ban” when two of the countries to which it applied were not even f’ing Islamic and the other covered countries included only 8% of the world’s Muslims.
Could you possibly be even more of an ignorant f’ing lying moron? Yeah, I really think so.
Immigration policy by its very nature is discriminatory, e.g., banning North Korean immigrants discriminates based on nationality.
Imagine that because of some communicable disease that only affects women, 30% of all US women of child-bearing age perish. It would be perfectly good immigration policy to put a cap on male immigrants and to be more liberal with female immigrants who can bear children. All that’s discriminatory, but it’s all perfectly legal and perfectly just.
That's right, all immigration policies are discriminatory. No nation has ever done it any other way.
I look forward to the next four years full of Somin’s tears.
For good or ill (often the latter), Democrats have an actual agenda. MAGA, on the other hand, just wants to pwn the libs.
That is indeed the #1 agenda item. This supports my general view that below the sundry levels of political beliefs , the six pillars, etc. is a simple two prong position: the extent to which you believe that the world is zero sum, and where (and how strongly) you draw the distinction between "us" and "them". For MAGAs, the world is definitely zero-sum - which btw explains the opposition to things like gay marriage - if someone else is getting rights, you must be losing out - and "libs" (and minorities, etc.) are decidedly "them". Hence owning the libs means you're winning! Even if disaster ensues, if those people lose out more than you do, you're still winning.
As at least one baker I can think of learned, it really was zero sum.
Hear, hear, Ilya. Thanks.
I agree with the special deference regarding immigration policy./
Prof Somin is completely missing the point that unless he's developed the power of telepathy and forgotten to tell us about it, he doesn't know Trump's motivation - none of us do. We merely infer it.
And per the logic laid out yesterday in a different comment thread, X's support of Y (by, for example, voting for Y) is circumstantial evidence that X does not believe that Y actually harbors malice or ill will toward X. That makes it paternalistic and more than a little presumptuous for Z (whether judges or law professors) to substitute their judgement of Y's motivations about X over X's own assessments of Y's motivations.
He’s drawing an inference about what Trump was thinking based on what Trump said about what he was thinking. That doesn’t strike me as an especially unconventional thing to attempt.
I have no problem with that part of it; It's perfectly reasonable to believe that Trump was thinking, "Those Muslims are the source of most terrorism in the world, even as a percent of our population they're responsible for a disproportionate fraction of domestic terrorism, they're overwhelmingly anti-semitic, multiple countries in Europe are regretting letting them in. Why would I want more of them here? While I'm at it I'll block people from non-Islamic terrorist sponsors, too."
Most sane people think that. It reflects the actual facts on the ground.
No, it's pretty shocking for a US leader to start going off about 'those Muslims.'
See also 'those blacks.'
Most sane people have learned from our history that embracing blanket negative generalizations about demographic groups end up with an unfree and immoral society.
Blanket negative generalizations have been SOP in immigration law.
Now, if you're in a position to vet immigrants, it makes sense to set aside the generalizations, and treat the immigrants as individuals. And that was the whole point of the travel ban list: It was a list of nations where we could not trust the information we were being fed by the local government for use in vetting!
That's exactly why it excluded multiple countries with large Muslim populations, but with governments we thought would be trustworthy when we asked them about specific individuals.
That's exactly why it included multiple countries without large Muslim populations, but with governments we did NOT think would be trustworthy when we asked them about specific individuals.
It was a list of nations where proper vetting of immigrants as individuals was not possible, NOT a list of Muslim nations!
Blanket negative generalizations have been SOP in immigration law.
Where do you get this from?
I will note that the justification was not 'these countries don't have good vetting policies.'
Because that would be quite a bit more inclusive.
No, it was 'Muslims bad.' As the quote above said. And which you appear to agree with.
Goes along with your Bell Curve belief, assertion that gays have been at the forefront of every pandemic in history, and your assertion that illegal immigrants must be predisposed to criminality because all lawbreaking is the same.
These are choices you have made, to target broad groups and believe bad things about all of them.
Those are immoral views, and you should stop holding them.
"Where do you get this from?"
Not having slept through history class.
From the text of the orders, presumably.
EO 13769:
EO 13780:
Proclamation 9645:
The problem with the inferences is what motivations you ascribe are entirely on your side and reflect only you. I could see Harris bailing out BLM rioters as the act of an America hating insurrectionist trying to create more civil strife, does that match her own motivations or her stated motivations (politicians can lie).
Do you see any scope issues with paralleling 'BLM rioters' with 'Muslims?'
It’s a weak argument. The law requires the finder of fact to determine people’s motivation all the time. And nobody ever knows anybody’s motivation directly. It’s always inferred from extrinsic evidence.
Are you suggesting that the law cannot distinguish between, say, first degree murder and involuntary manslaughter? This distinction is based entirely on motivation.
And if you’re not willing to argue that, why should Mr. Trump get a special break or benefit from a special argument that would be nonsense if applied to anyone else?
The law also looks at all the facts before inferring motivation. Where the facts weigh heavily against such a finding, then such an inference is not taken.
I remember an old episode of Gimme a Break. For the youngins here, it was a show about a black housekeeper in a house of a white widower with three daughters. At one point she applies for a job somewhere and is turned down. Suspecting racial discrimination, she has her black friend (who has a PhD) apply for the same job and is turned down.
They confront the owner. While they are waiting to speak to him, a half dozen employees stop by and say hi. All black. That pretty much refuted their inference that the owner was motivated by anti-black animus.
No, I’m saying that voters in that demographic are best positioned to assess a government leader’s motivations with respect to that demographic and that you, not being a member of that demographic, have a (relatively) diminished capacity to assess those specific motivations. Where, as here, voters in that demographic have expressed their assessment of Trump’s motivation by voting for him anyway, you should be very cautious about overriding their judgement and inferring malice that may not actually be there.
And? We make decisions all the time based on inferences. Court cases turn all the time on motivations that must be inferred. Why are MAGA suddenly acting as if the notion of drawing inferences from evidence is a supernatural power that anti-Trump people are just now inventing?
Any person who has been paying attention the last six years or so who thinks that the courts are going to do anything to hinder Trump in any way, as opposed to enable him, are deluded.
I have a prediction- the "major questions doctrine," which was invented and only used during the Biden administration, will somehow not need to be trotted out again. Because reasons.
We saw from the last go around that there were plenty of judges willing to enjoin Trump’s policies, most of whom are still around. And while they don’t sit in single judge districts so that a challenger can handpick them, the challengers also only need to win one case.
If your point is that the Supreme Court will step in eventually, that still leaves a pretty good pause before things can actually start happening. And it’s not like we should anticipate the policies to be implemented more professionally this go around…
We saw from the last go around that there were plenty of judges willing to enjoin Trump’s policies, most of whom are still around.
Since which time they have been reinforced by 212 Biden appointees, and more to come !
loki need not be concerned that we are going to run out of anti-Trump judges.
The lower courts will be trying to block Trump's policies, the Supreme court will mostly have no part of it, and will not be gentle with those lower courts.
If they find time to get around to it.
You do understand the fundamentally different job of the Supreme Court from lower courts yes?
Ah, I see your analysis isn't legal but just 'bad faith everywhere' complaining.
Although it wasn’t called as such, the major questions doctrine had its birth at least as far back as trying to use some telecom law for phones for a complete takeover of the Internet.
Bureaucrats misusing laws for things clearly not considered by Congress, and arguably something they’d have laughed out of the room, is hardly new*. But doing so for some majorly expensive thing or ass bite out of the economy, sans direct Congressional aporoval is a bridge too far.
Unless your goal is raw power and your philosophy is “We love democracy! Until we don’t.”
* We'll skip flat out lies. Under Clinton, they passed a law expanding terrorism surveillance. They swore it would only be used for terrorism. They immediately applied it to drug violations. When asked this, they said, "Ha ha! The law doesn't actually say terrorism only! Ha ha we pulled a fast one!"
Actually, one more prediction...
You know some of the real crazy federal judges? You know who I'm talking about.
Well, now that they know for sure that Trump is the President, I think we can expect some doozies of opinions ... have to show the Boss that you need to be his next pick for SCOTUS.
This, on the other hand, seems like it’s probably right.
I rarely completely read all of Somin's posts. I come here to read and learn law. Somin is always political. Dershowitz admitted he was unable to predict politics because he doesn't understand it. Looking at you Somin.
I'm guessing you rarely completely read much of anything. But I'm sure there's some Rumble videos you can watch.
Always political and the same tune
Didn’t Prof. Blackman end his post by saying that he didn’t think judges should do that?
(Admittedly, that raises the question of why he brought the subject up at all. But still.)
Also, we love deciding to empower government in new ways based on changing attitudes of The People.
Until we don’t.
Which way is a solid pilosophical principle? First, tell me what’s the issue and which side I’m on, then I will decide which principle to vomit forth as if Jesus peed a rainbow of it. For this week, anyhoo.
Ilya is correct in slapping down Josh's silly if quite original notion that the demographic characteristics of a President's voters has any bearing at all on a judicial determination of the legality of that President's actions.
But Ilya got one thing wrong in saying without qualification...
Trump's January 27, 2017 Muslim travel ban was not ultimately upheld as lawful, under any context. After Acting Attorney General Sally Yates advised Trump that it was unconstitutional and indefensible in court and he fired her, it was stayed two days later by a nationwide injunction, pending trial (in a suit brought by my own state’s attorney general btw).
Trump’s second and substantially different version was submitted on March 6, 2018, but also stayed by nationwide injunction on March 15, pending trial in the Supreme Court.
Only the third version, developed by better lawyers to address the first two courts' findings and submitted more that six months later on September 24, 2017, was finally found constitutional in a June 28, 2018 5-4 Supreme Court decision—more than a year after Sally Yates accurately told President Trump that she had not just the authority, but the responsibility to inform the President that his original Stephen Miller-written Executive Order was unconstitutional on its face and indefensible as a matter of law and, as such, her oath to the Constitution meant she could not permit the DoJ to defend it in court.
Given that history, wonder what kind of anti-immigrant Executive Order Stephen Miller is planning to have Trump sign on January 27, 2025?
If interested, you can find a timeline of the three versions by searching on www dot aclu-wa dot org and "Timeline of the Muslim Ban"
Getting recent history very wrong is only one of Ilya the Lesser's errors.
He has a pen and a phone, too.
So suck it.
As I said in a comment on Professor Blackman’s post, the argument is legal nonsense, as many elected officials who received a majority of the votes of a particular subgroup have been successfully sued for having various governmental policies violate the rivhts of that subgroup.
That said, I do want to point out that the political branches have plenary authority over immigration in this country. If Congress and the President want to limit immigration to people of a particular race, religion, or other class they think will make a better fit with the current citizenry, they have every right to do so.
When Roe was in effect, courts regularly struck down state laws prohibiting “discriminatory” abortions selecting e.g. by sex, and Professor Somin never complained. While Dobbs now makes such laws permissable, it in no way requires them. The fact of the matter is, the Constitution places no more obstacle on the government of this country determining who can enter the national famy based on whatever criteria they wish than it does on individuals determining who can enter their individual families based on whatever criteria they wish. Race, sex, and like criteria are as constitutionally permissible a basis for immmigration decisions as they are for abortion decisions.
Historians will note Trump’s promise to ban all Muslims from entering the country — made in 2016 to cheering crowds — as a sad moment.
Once again, things that didn't happen.
Once again Bumble shows his ignorance about things that did happen.
https://www.npr.org/2015/12/07/458836388/trump-calls-for-total-and-complete-shutdown-of-muslims-entering-u-s
"a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on."
And then he took office and did something completely different, so, what's your point?
I can think of at least 19 Moose-lums who shouldn't have entered in 2000
Only Islamic historians will say that.
Why should the US take even a single Immigrant from Ear-Ron, Pock-e-Ston, Off-Gone-e-Ston, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen??, I’m sure I’m leaving out a few Terrorist States, unless there are 2 or 3 quality starting pitchers (one a Southpaw), a Shortstop, a Left Fielder, and a closer to fill the Braves biggest needs, and even then, only after a thorough and rigorous “Vetting” (don’t need no torn ACL's/Rotator Cuffs)
Frank
And with the recent events in Paris, I'd take France off the guest list also, not sure why they've ever been considered an Ally.
You might look at some events back in the 1700's when we were at war with England.
Trump is ignorant of the Constitution and lacks historical knowledge also. (He thinks Frederick Douglass is still alive -- remember that?) I doubt he would know what you're talking about.
Setting aside the hyperbole, I was addressing Frank, not Trump.
Again with the Fake Quotes, "45/47" never said John McCain wasn't a Hero, he said he WAS a Hero (because he got captured), and saying what "45/47" "Thinks" requires you to know the operation of his mind, which you can't do (HT Judge Judy) all "45/47" said was
“Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, I notice,”
What part of that do you have a problem with (That's rhetorical, I'm not expecting an answer)
Frank
I know, "The Enemy of my Enemy" thing...they've been supporting the Terrorists for at least the last 50 years (see "Operation El Dorado Canyon)
Ilya: BREATHE!
The few brain cells you have left not infected with TDS need all of the oxygen that they can get!
Courts ought not look to motivation for actions that would be otherwise constitutional.
Why not?
Why? For three of the last four years, I've been bludgeoned with "81-million votes!!!! REE!!!"
No, you haven't.
Ok. Then he must then stop ALL Immigration. Period. Your terms are acceptable, you anti-democracy tyrant. Trump was VOTED into office.
He was indeed voted into office. That vote did not repeal any section of the Constitution. Duh.
Including this one: "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America."
Notice that it doesn't say, "Except such parts of that power which would be exercised out of animus, as determined by the courts."?
Which brings me back to my original point: The courts are not entitled to impeach a President, even partially. He takes office, for better or for worse he gets to exercise the full powers of the office, regardless of whether the courts doubt his good will.
They have a picture of the above comment in the dictionary to illustrate the phrase "begging the question."
And that power extends only to that specifically referenced in the Constitution, right? Or is there some other source of executive authority that the Constitution does not reference which you nonetheless believe to exist?
And that would be my point: Congress is constitutionally delegated the power to make a binary choice of whether a President shall continue to exercise all powers of the office, or none.
The judiciary, by contrast, is NOT delegated the power to deprive Presidents of powers of their office, either entirely or partially. And yet, that's what is proposed when you want them to rule that one President can't do something you admit another President could.
It is taught in Rhetoric/Debate/Logic never to do what you do - use 3 qualifications of pure abstraction to make an arguemtn
Election Returns --what the Hell does that mean? many voted for the same thing for opposite reasons..eg Voted for Trump because Kamala is a stupid person who can't speak vs I like Trump
Blank Check again, what really can that mean with Sotomayor and Kagan and Roberts and Jackson. It's bulllshit
Unconstitutional Discrimination ...should they ask you what constitutional discrimination is?
Of course that is the point of your whole post, isn't it 🙂
But what you DO WANT is racist. Those redistricting schemes that lump Blacks together assume that if you are Black that is your chief allegaiance in life. IT even requires government definitions of who is Black. (Kamala is NOT Black btw) That is how slavery got much of its power. Homer Plessy was whiter than most of your staff.
Bullcow, (I mean Somin), you ignorant slut. You aren't getting your open borders, globalist one-world government. You and your ilk were judged and found wanting. Now to the dustbin of history where you belong. The people are in charge now.