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A Debate Over the Open Fields Doctrine and Fourth Amendment Law
Featuring comments from Joshua Windham, and my response.
I recently posted about the open fields doctrine of Fourth Amendment law, the rule that it is not a "search" under the Fourth Amendment for the government to trespass on to your open field. In my post, I argued that the contrary rule argued by some advocates, that passage onto a person's land should be a search, conflicts with the text of the Fourth Amendment. The constitutional language specifically protects "persons, houses, papers, and effects," and it's hard to argue, as a matter of text, that an open field is one of those four enumerated things. Open land is not a person, a house, a paper, or an effect.
Joshua Windham of the Institute for Justice has written in with a response disagreeing with me. In the interests of furthering a debate on this topic, I have reprinted his response in full below. And after that, also below, I have replied and explained why I think Mr. Windham is incorrect. Who has the better argument? You decide.
First up, here's Mr. Windham's response:
Professor Orin Kerr recently defended the "open fields" doctrine on textualist grounds. That doctrine holds that the Fourth Amendment's ban on "unreasonable searches" does not extend to land beyond the curtilage of a home. The original—and current—basis for the doctrine is that land "is not one of those protected areas enumerated in the [text]." It seems Professor Kerr agrees: "[I]f you take text seriously," he writes, "the thing searched has to be a person, house, paper, or effect" to enjoy Fourth Amendment protection. And, because land is not on that list, "you don't get protection on the land itself."
I disagree. And not just as a "policy" matter, as Professor Kerr's article suggests. As I see it, the open fields doctrine rests on an acontextual reading of the phrase "persons, houses, papers, and effects." For reference, start with what the Fourth Amendment actually says:"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Hold that text in your mind. We'll come back to it. For now, the point is simply that the Fourth Amendment contains 54 words—not merely the five words on which Professor Kerr focuses. So, what do I mean when I say that his reading is "acontextual"?
I mean that it fails to use context clues to understand what the text means—to grasp, not only what the text says (in semantic isolation), but how we're meant to understand and use it. Here's a simple example. If you walk into an elementary school classroom, you'll likely see a list of rules posted on the wall. And one rule you'll surely see is "keep your hands to yourself." How should we read the rule? Are handshakes and hugs forbidden, because that would mean touching others? Can students kick and throw things at each other, because the rule refers only to hands? No. These aren't sensible readings.
The better reading is that the rule does not exhaust, but evinces, a broader principle: Do not physically disrupt your classmates. We know that because the rule was adopted in a context: a classroom, where learning is the goal and peace is a precondition, and where it would be impossible to list out every kind of physical disruption that might break the peace. The rule doesn't specify hands because they're uniquely disruptive. It lists hands because punching is a paradigm case of the problem the rule seeks to solve. Kicking isn't listed, but if we read the rule in context, it's forbidden. Kids understand this (at least my wife, a teacher, tells me they do).
The bill of rights works the same way. Take the First Amendment. At face value, it bars only "Congress" from "abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press." But the Court has interpreted this text to bar all officials (not just Congress) from censoring most forms of expression (not just when spoken or printed). And that makes good sense. As Justice Scalia explained: "In textual interpretation, context is everything, and the context of the Constitution tells us not to expect nit-picking detail"—no less for the First Amendment's express references to "speech and press, the two most common forms of communication, [which] stand as a sort of synecdoche [or representation] for the whole. That is not strict construction, but it is reasonable construction." Antonin Scalia, A Matter of Interpretation: Federal Courts and the Law 37–38 (1997) (citing McCulloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. (4 Wheat) 316, 407 (1819) (Marshall, C.J.)).
It's hard to grasp why we should read the Fourth Amendment's text any differently. But don't just take mine or Justice Scalia's word for it. The basic issue here is that we have to choose whether to treat the Fourth Amendment's reference to "persons, houses, papers, and effects" as exhaustive or illustrative. If you're a strict textualist still on the fence, look at the Ninth Amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." That's an explicit rule of construction, and it makes the same point I've been making here: The mere fact that the Fourth Amendment lists "persons, houses, papers, and effects" does not justify the open fields doctrine.
Of course, none of this proves that land deserves protection. But it opens the door to that conversation. While I don't have the space to give my complete argument here (for that, see my forthcoming law review article, The Open Fields Doctrine Is Wrong), I want to flag three context clues that support the inference that the Fourth Amendment protects land. Then, before wrapping up, I'd like to briefly touch on something Professor Kerr doesn't discuss: The Supreme Court's alternative justification for the open fields doctrine under the Katz privacy framework.
My first context clue is the legal status of private land at the founding. English common law held that "[e]very unwarrantable entry on another's soil the law entitles a trespass by breaking his close." Seminal search cases like Entick v. Carrington, though they typically involved homes, agreed that "bruising the grass and . . . treading upon the soil" violated the common law since "[n]o man may set his foot upon my ground without my license." And early Americans—who valued property rights and cultivation—embraced trespass protections with statutes that specified how to exclude intruders. See Buford v. Houtz, 133 U.S. 320, 328 (1890) (noting that "[n]early all the states in the early days had what was called the 'Fence Law'"). At the founding, private land was legally secure from trespass.
My second context clue is the kind of power the Fourth Amendment was meant to curb. Founding-era officials lacked freestanding search power. (See Thomas Davies's work.) If they wanted to enter property without risking trespass liability, then generally speaking, they needed a specific warrant issued by a neutral judge. (See Laura Donohue's work.) The general warrants and writs of assistance that prompted the Fourth Amendment did so precisely because they granted government officials a power they previously lacked: the power to invade property at their own discretion.
My third context clue is the Fourth Amendment's whole text. Not the five isolated words on which the open fields doctrine rests, but the 49 other words too. The first clause never says that only persons, houses, papers, and effects deserve protection. It says we have a right "to be secure in" those items "against unreasonable searches." A right to be secure entails freedom from threats or fear. (See Luke Milligan's work.) And it's not hard to see how officials roaming and placing cameras on your land might undermine your security in your person, house, papers, or effects. The second clause helps too. Because founding-era officers needed a warrant to invade property, setting the standard for valid warrants effectively set the bar for valid searches. So it's telling that, in a clause meant to do much of the Fourth Amendment's heavy lifting, we find a rule that warrants must "describ[e] the place to be searched." Isn't land a "place"?
Taking these context clues together—the fact that land was secure from trespass, that the founding generation abhorred discretionary searches, and that the Fourth Amendment's whole text sweeps more broadly than "persons, houses, papers, and effects"—I think the most reasonable inference to draw from the text is that land deserves protection. And I don't think the first clause's list undercuts that inference, either. Far from listing those items to the exclusion of everything else, it seems more plausible that the framers were merely stopping the discretionary search problem before it spread. The framers named "persons, houses, papers, and effects" because they were most recently under threat. It hardly follows that unreasonable searches of private land are constitutional. Just like it hardly follows that a rule against classroom punching allows classroom kicking.
That, in a nutshell, is why I think a more contextual reading of the Fourth Amendment's text would reject the open fields doctrine. But it's worth noting that the Supreme Court has given a second justification for the doctrine. The Fourth Amendment, at least under current precedent, protects reasonable expectations of privacy even when they are not listed in the text. The Court has held that people—categorically—"may not legitimately demand privacy" on their own land. Without getting too far into the Court's reasoning (since Professor Kerr does not rely on it), I want to make clear that I find it preposterous.
The Katz privacy test is notoriously squishy. But, by any metric, there are at least some scenarios where it's plainly reasonable to expect privacy on your own land. If we look at positive law, every state has a trespass statute—a statute that (if we indulge the fiction) reflects social expectations and says how to exclude people from your land and trigger trespass liability. If we look at personal use, people use their land for every private end they seek at home: private conversations, quiet reflection, family recreation, making art, making love, and on and on. If we look at empirical data, a 2011 study found that 66.5% of respondents believed that posting "no trespassing" signs on their land was enough to create a reasonable expectation of privacy. The point is, even if some land—like land left open to the public—doesn't deserve privacy, the Supreme Court was wrong to hold that all land beyond the curtilage fails the Katz test.
The original article to which Professor Kerr was responding urged the Supreme Court to overrule the open fields doctrine. For all the reasons above, I agree that it should. But let me stress: My interest in this issue is not merely academic. I litigate this issue all over the country. It affects millions of landowners. Earlier this year, my public-interest law firm, the Institute for Justice, published a study that found the open fields doctrine exposes at least 96% of all private land in the United States—about 1.2 billion acres—to unfettered intrusions. With deep respect for Professor Kerr, I don't believe the Fourth Amendment allows the government to wield that kind of power on so vast and terrifying a scale. 100 years of the open fields doctrine is enough.
I certainly appreciate the engagement, and I thank Mr. Windham very much for writing in. With equal respect, though, I disagree with his view. I think there are two major problems with his position.
The first problem is that I don't think there's anything particularly textualist about it. When Mr. Windham asserts a difference between an acontextual reading and a contextual reading, I think what he's really doing is comparing a textual reading and a purpose-based reading. The relevant "context" he invokes is really just the highest level of generality of his claimed purpose of the Fourth Amendment. Thus, instead of focusing on the actual language of the Fourth Amendment, he looks to "the broader principle" of the Amendment and "the kind of power the Fourth Amendment was meant to curb." It seems to me that his argument is really about the purpose of the Fourth Amendment, a purpose that he suggests is implied broadly by the text viewed holistically. On this view, the actual words are merely examples of the broader kind of problem that the provision should be interpreted to address.
That's certainly a legitimate argument, to be clear. But I don't think it's a textual argument. Rather, it strikes me as a move I have previously called "the Level of Generality game." Here's how I described it back in 2015:
Most students of constitutional law will be familiar with the Level of Generality Game, as it's a common way to argue for counterintuitive outcomes. The basic idea is that any legal rule can be understood as a specific application of a set of broad principles. If you need to argue that a particular practice is unconstitutional, but the text and/or history are against you, the standard move is to raise the level of generality. You say that the text is really a representation of one of the relevant principles, and you then pick a principle at whatever level of abstraction is needed to encompass the position you are advocating. If the text and/or history are really against you, you might need to raise the level of generality a lot, so that you get a super-vague principle like "don't be unfair" or "do good things." But when you play the Level of Generality Game, you can usually get there somehow. If you can raise the level of generality high enough, you can often argue that any text stands for any position you like.
My apologies that I expressed the idea rather dismissively above. I wouldn't have used that tone in this context if I were making the point for the first time here. But I think it's fair to say that this is the basic structure of Mr. Windham's argument. Of course, some will argue that the Level-of-Generality strategy is a perfectly fair move to play, and that the Supreme Court sometimes does play it. And indeed, it does! But it doesn't strike me as a textualist argument. Rather, it's the classic move to get around inconvenient text.
The second problem with Mr. Windham's argument runs along more originalist lines. In his telling, you can interpret "persons, houses, papers, and effects" as merely illustrative examples of protected things, rather than a complete list of the covered things, because those were the things to be protected that were on the drafters' minds. In Mr. Windham's telling, "the framers named 'persons, houses, papers, and effects' because they were most recently under threat." I take the suggestion to be that, if the Fourth Amendment's drafters had explicitly considered the possibility of writing the Fourth Amendment to cover land, they likely would have. On this view, we should interpret the Fourth Amendment in terms of what we think the framers would have said if they had thought about the question, rather than the particular words that they wrote.
Putting aside that this sort of speculation does not seem textualist, either, this specific argument runs into a problem. The drafters of the Fourth Amendment actually did consider a broader version of the text that would have covered open fields. And they rejected it.
Here's the history, as I understand it. In 1789, James Madison introduced what would become the Fourth Amendment. Madison's initial proposed text was as follows:
The rights to be secured in their persons, their houses, their papers, and their other property, from all unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated by warrants issued without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, or not particularly describing the places to be searched, or the persons or things to be seized.
Notice what was protected in Madison's original draft. Madison's language protected their persons, their houses, their papers, and their other property. "Their other property" is a really broad phrase. It would presumably have included everything a person owned, including their open land.
The Committee in charge of considering Madison's draft changed the language, however, from "other property" to "effects." Here's my discussion of that change from a recent article:
The Committee of Eleven, made up of representatives of each state, slightly altered the language. Unfortunately, no explanations exist for why the changes were made. But three changes stand out. First, and most significantly, the phrase "other property" was replaced with "effects." That is, the new language offered protection to the people in their persons, houses, papers, and "effects" instead of in their persons, houses, papers, and "their other property." Dictionaries of the era defined "effects" as "personal property, and particularly . . . goods or moveables."
Critically, "effects" were property that excluded real property—that is, it excluded land. In other words, the drafters took language that would have included open fields and replaced it with language that excluded open fields. We don't know why, and I personally don't think it matters why. But to the extent an argument hinges on what the drafters might have had in mind, it doesn't seem very faithful to that to adopt an interpretation that the drafters rejected.
One final thought. Mr. Windham invokes Justice Scalia for the idea that the language "persons, houses, papers, and effects" should be interpreted to include open fields. It's worth noting, though, that Justice Scalia was on my side of this debate, not Mr. Windham's. Here's what Justice Scalia wrote about the open fields doctrine in United States v. Jones:
Quite simply, an open field, unlike the curtilage of a home, see United States v. Dunn, 480 U. S. 294, 300 (1987), is not one of those protected areas enumerated in the Fourth Amendment. Oliver, supra, at 176–177. See also Hester v. United States, 265 U. S. 57, 59 (1924). The Government's physical intrusion on such an area—unlike its intrusion on the "effect" at issue here—is of no Fourth Amendment significance.
Justice Scalia had it right, I think.
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When considering the subjective intent of the drafters of the Fourth Amendment I wouldn't put much weight on the minor editorial change. As often happens in statutory interpretation, the readers of a law are putting a lot of thought into a question that may not have occurred to the drafters. "The absence of a contemporary outcry against warrantless searches in public places was because, aside from searches incident to arrest, such warrantless searches were not a large issue in colonial America." U.S. v. Chadwick. In the late 18th century the government was not so eager to regulate what went on on your private land. The government couldn't place a camera but had to send a human being to sit around and watch.
Just what is the limit of curtilage?
The Supreme Court says “for most homes, the boundaries of the curtilage will be clearly marked; and the conception defining the curtilage—as the area around the home to which the activity of home life extends—is a familiar one easily understood from our daily experience.” Oliver v. United States, 466 U.S. 170 at n.12 (1984).
Pretty vague. One size does not fit all. Maybe "easily understood" in a city or suburban setting but not so much in more rural areas.
Exactly. A house in town has sidewalks, fencing, landscaping, etc. to give a good indication of boundary; a cabin in the woods on a mountain not so much. Does the cabin curtilage stop at a standard distance from the structure, or would it encompass a nearby fishing/swimming lake and the paths to and from it?
Since the fourth amendment actually means whatever the robed Humpty Dumpty's say it means, the discussion is interesting but irrelevant.
He chose a weird case that talked a bit about curtilages in discussion and footnotes despite it not being an issue or part of the holding. Most important curtilage cases deal with rural homes, since they were decided when most homes were rural. Indeed Oliver involves a farm, just not the curtilage of that farm.
The current primary controlling case is United States v. Dunn, 480 U.S. 294 (1987), which lays out a multifactored test for determining the extent of the curtilage. It also deals with a farm house. (I realize that multifactored tests don't make things easy since you have to look up how those factors have been applied by various courts, but nobody said law was easy.)
So, if (say) my house was located in the center of the 23.1 acre lot it sets upon, my curtilage would extend to the clearly marked boundary fences?
Uh, no? What part of that quote do you think implies that conclusion?
The fences, sir.
Who, besides Flight-ER-Doc, said anything about fences?
Founding era practice seems dispositive to me: Government officers had no more right to enter your property than any random person at the time, unless they had a warrant. The 4th amendment was not intended to reduce the rights Americans enjoyed!
No one suggests it does. But it doesn’t incorporate every customary protection either, just the ones that weee actually written into the text that was enacted and ratified.
True, but by its own words, the Bill of Rights is not an exhaustive list, and the power hungry do not get to abuse anything not listed.
If founding era practice is your guide: Are you aware of any founding-era or earlier examples in which someone — anyone — obtained a search warrant to go onto an open field? I don't know of any examples. We have lots of discussions of warrants in that period, with lots of examples of warrants, and I have never seen a warrant to search an open field.
I don't think we're talking about open fields. "Open fields" doctrine is very deceptively named, since it is applied to fenced and posted fields which are not in any meaningful sense "open".
Before I had to move back in '08, I lived on 16 acres in the country. "Open fields" doctrine would have applied to all but perhaps a quarter acre of that immediately surrounding my home, but all of it was fenced and subject to trespassing law, the very opposite of "open".
…okay? Are you aware of any founding-era or earlier examples in which someone — anyone — obtained a search warrant to go onto premises like that?
There was no exclusionary rule. If somebody trespassed on your field your remedy was to sue for damages. The evidence of your crime was still admissible. We could equally well guess
(1) Nobody got a warrant because a muddy boot print was not worth a lawsuit.
(2) Investigatory trespass was so obviously allowed that nobody bothered to write about it.
(3) There was not much evidence to be found in open fields in those days.
Government officers had no more right to enter your property than any random person at the time, unless they had a warrant.
Nice rule. Where does it come from?
Among other things, this is a consequence of Article 1 Section 9 paragraph 8: "No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States..."
In English (and European) history, one of the distinguishing privileges of nobility was to be able to make acts and judgements normally forbidden to the rest of the citizenry. Trespass without a warrant is an example of such a privilege.
And forbidding trespass to the government without a warrant certainly seems like one of the rights described by the Ninth Amendment. (And, contrary to legal usage, the fact that the Founders made to effort to make that specific writing *should* mean something.)
If that's what you want to go with, good luck.
This is exactly right, and I find the strained kindergarten rule analogy particularly remarkable. IJ would be apoplectic if someone suggested interpreting an actual criminal statute in this fashion. It’s astonishing to see them suggest that it has any role in constitutional analysis.
To be clear, this is solely Joshua Windham, posting in his personal capacity, at least as I understand it.
Fair enough, although at a minimum IJ seems to be sympathetic to Mr. Windham’s perspective:
https://ij.org/issues/ijs-project-on-the-4th-amendment/open-fields-doctrine/
Hi there, the classroom analogy makes the same point that Justice Scalia, a textualist, made about the First Amendment: It's not an exhaustive list. Perhaps you disagree with Scalia--perhaps you think much of modern First Amendment jurisprudence is wrong. But if you do, and your reason is "textualism," I don't get how you're reading the Ninth Amendment. As I read it, the Ninth Amendment is a rule of construction that expressly tells us not to read the bill of rights as an exhaustive list. The Supreme Court follows that rule of construction when it reads the First Amendment. If there are good reasons to treat the Fourth Amendment differently, I haven't heard them.
As far as the classroom analogy, we don't treat rules that are applied to small children the same way as the rules that govern civil society writ large. In the former case, it's reasonable (and indeed, an essential developmental step) to expect children to learn how to self-regulate and conform their behavior to societal standards, rather than to push the limits of specific rules. If you instead consider actual laws, the problem become obvious. If a criminal statute prohibited punching, surely you wouldn't suggest someone could be prosecuted for kicking because it inflicts the same type of harm?
As far as Scalia, I think you're either misunderstanding or mischaracterizing his point. He wasn't saying that freedom of speech and of the press should be understood as just examples of the sorts of things the first amendment protects: rather, his point was that in context they could be understood as a figure of speech extending to every kind of communication, so that (per his example) a handwritten letter would also be protected. If you have some argument that "persons, houses, papers, and effects" can be understood as a similar metaphor, I'm all ears. But you haven't really offered anything that would demonstrate that.
If you mean that the Ninth Amendment offers a rule for how to construe the other amendments, so that "persons, houses, papers, and effects" can mean "persons, houses, papers, effects, and other stuff", I think that's not only wrong, but clearly belied by the text.
If you mean that the Ninth Amendment says that there could still be a protection against searches of open fields even thought the Fourth Amendment doesn't say that, I agree, but:
1. That means that Prof. Kerr is correct that, as you put it "the Fourth Amendment's ban on 'unreasonable searches' does not extend to land beyond the curtilage of a home."
2. You still have to prove that there is such right outside of the Fourth Amendment, which I don't think you've done.
But the Fourth Amendment doesn’t protect a generalized right to “security”. It protects a right to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures.
And the government wandering around your property in the vague hope of hanging a felony on you is pretty damn unreasonable.
The government wandering around anywhere in the vague hope of hanging a felony on you is pretty damn unreasonable, too. But it is not usually thought to violate the Fourth Amendment.
Walking around a plaza is not the same as private property.
But the Foruth Amendment doesn’t provide a generalized protection against unreasonable government actions. It prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures of persons, papers, houses, and effects.
As Mr. Windham points out, the thing is only 54 words long. It’s pretty remarkable that people have so much trouble reading it before confidently declaiming what it means!
And you don't have any trouble reading it? What makes your reading the one true reading?
That's a pretty sorry legal point of view.
The second amendment is only 27 words, and look at all the confusion they cause.
The fourth is twice as long!
Orin, based on the last couple of posts, I'm wondering if you think wiretapping is within the scope of the Fourth Amendment. Was Olmstead correctly decided?
The Digital Fourth Amendment drops January 10th!
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0190627077/reasonmagazinea-20/
Why is real property (something I own, purchase, sell, use, etc) not an effect? And if it's not, why are things I own, purchase, sell, use (a vehicle, a briefcase, indeed my house) not?
Because that’s not what the word effects means. The distinction between real and personal property is pretty much foundational, and “effects” only includes the latter.
The very concept of the ownership of land includes the right to exclude. Maybe this is really a Fifth Amendment issue. If the government is, without a warrant, depriving the owner of the right to exclude, then it needs to compensate the landowner for the taking. We could look at how much landowners charge hunters to perhaps get an idea of how much government agents with guns should be paying for the right to be on the land without a warrant. A random search says that's about $10 - $50 per acre. So, government, do you want to be on this 80 acre field without a warrant so badly that you'll pay $800 - $4000 for access which lasts about as long as a hunting season?
Certainly there’s no question that the government can establish any number of ways to regulate or outright prohibit government agents’ access to the property under discussion. That doesn’t really shed any light on what restrictions, if any, are required by the Fourth Amendment.
That is not the proper concern. Rare is governnent increasing rights. Common is it abridging them.
Whether the landowner can recover for trespass is a separate question from whether the search was a Fourth Amendment violation requiring suppression of the evidence. From Hester v. US, 265 U.S. 57 (1924):
Yes, but if we're not going to extend Fourth Amendment protection to lands, this would be a way to discourage government snooping on private land unless they have a good reason. Budgets aren't unlimited.
"It's not protected by the 4th" is probably the better textualist argument, even though I don't like that result. But that doesn't have to mean the owner loses all rights and the government just has a free-for-all on any land that isn't within a few yards of a house.
If the officer is illegally present where they did the search, how exactly is the product of the search not the product of illegal behavior?
Brett, it is refreshing to see you have come around and are now advocating for an expansion of judge-made law.
I am here advocating for a reversal of a judge made contraction of a formal right. Remember that the 4th amendment was adopted in 1791, while open fields doctrine was invented by the judiciary in 1924.
I see you're doubling down on Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be.
So under the textualist reading advocated by Prof. Kerr and others, businesses have no Fourth Amendment rights at all? (Ar least with regards to real property.)
I think that’s correct, although as a practical matter, I doubt law enforcement will often want to search business premises without also searching at least some of the papers or effects contained there.
But wasn't that the exact fact pattern in See v. City of Seattle, 387 U.S. 541 (1967), which found a Fourth Amendment violation for commercial premises, citing precedents such as United States v. Cardiff, 344 U.S. 174, and others?
Yes, there’s no question that current Supreme Court doctrine holds that the fourth amendment restricts actions that aren’t searches or seizures of houses, persons, papers, or effects. But they didn’t get there through textualism.
What effect does your textualism give to the Fourth Amendment? The exclusionary remedy is atextual. Protection for business premises and outbuildings (barns, sheds, and the like outside a residence's curtilage) is atextual. The distinction between metadata and content is atextual. Not stealing from targets of a search is atextual. It doesn't seem like the Fourth would do anything at all in your world.
I believe the exclusionary rule was adopted in response to the growing refusal of prosecutors to go after police who conducted illegal searches. If we still routinely prosecuted as burglars police who broke into a house without a warrant, the 4th amendment could be vindicated without the exclusionary rule.
If you believe that, it’s only because you’ve refused to listen when people point out that you’re wrong.
It would provide the standard for a judicial officer to use in considering whether to issue a warrant, and provide restrictions on the conduct of government actors that could be enforced through criminal or civil sanctions.
Which is odd because the protections are to stop the king from filching through their opponents’ stuff until they find something. These are always powerful people, rich, with their fingers in many business pies.
The king knows he will find stuff, and illegal stuff. This isn’t protecting them from evidence being planted. It’s protecting them from the king finding evidence of illegality. Which he king and lords are all dork deep in. Use it to your advantage to hurt a foe!
Related?
https://www.agweb.com/news/business/farmland/rural-landowner-sues-after-state-searches-property-without-warrant-or-cons
All this lawyerly quibbling reminds me again what a pox legal quibbling is.
The Bill of Rights was intended to limit government, not expand it. Thinking that quibbles can find such marvelous little loopholes in the government's favor instead of the people's favor is what gives lawyers their reputation.
If nothing else, so much arguing over this shows how much confusion lawyers sow, and that alone ought to call it a tie and decide it in favor of individual rights and against the government interpretation.
Too many lawyers have lost track of the Declaration of Independence.
People were not created to fulfill statist wet dreams. That seems to be all lawyers think of.
Interesting legal arguments. The 'other property to effects' observation ispersuasive but I must admit that I really want Windham to be right.
I have good news for you! The government can restrict what government actors do whenever it wants, regardless of what the constitution says. So if you think such a restriction is an important policy, that might be the thing to focus on.
"... and particularly describing the place to be searched..."
A "place" is not in the set "persons, houses, papers, and effects", and yet, it clearly is meant to be secured from unreasonable searches without a warrant.
I think you're dead wrong, Kerr.
I don’t know where you live, but my house is very much a place!
And so is your back yard.
I agree!
What’s your point?
"Open fields" are also places.
I haven't looked at this issue closely, but I think it is hard to argue with your position in light of the drafting history replacing "all other property" with "effects," which I understand to have been defined as "moveable" personal property.
That said, if Fourth Amendment protection extends only to the enumerated categories of "persons, houses, papers, and effects," then is there a textual basis for why we apply it to buildings other than houses? If a warehouse was placed in the middle of an open field, I don't think anyone would disagree that -- at least under current law -- police would need a warrant to search it. Same with places of business.
I suppose it could be argued that those places are places for storing "papers and effects," which are entitled to protection. But I think the same could be true for open fields. So if we would need a warrant to search a building that is not a house simply because it stores "papers and effects," then why would we not need a warrant to search an open field that is similarly used to store "papers and effects"?
Unless "houses" at the founding was used to refer to buildings of all types, as opposed to those used primarily as living spaces. Which is something that I am not aware of and have not looked into.
Marblehead Powder House – Built in 1755 I don't think anyone lived there.
While "house" primarily referred to a building somebody lived in, if used in isolation, it was also used as a general term for any building used to store something or conduct some activity. The term "warehouse" goes back to the 1300's, for example.
Kords, I think Prof. Kerr is claiming that the open fields doctrine has a textualist justification, not that all current 4th Amendment law does.
Marshall, Brennan, and Stevens also questioned the validity of the textual approach given that commercial buildings are not houses, in their dissent fo Oliver v. United States, 466 U.S. 170 (1984). But … it was a dissent.
You are right, and I totally get that. I just think that if acceptance of his reasoning behind the Open Fields Doctrine's correctness would require a radical reinterpretation of current Fourth Amendment law, then that is something that should be acknowledged.
I will have to look into the Oliver dissent though, sounds interesting. Thanks for the pointer!
But this whole debate is only halfway responsive to the key question. The Fourth Amendment has two clauses: 1. One providing that the people's right to be secure in certain enumerated items shall not be violated by unreasonable searches, and 2. Another saying warrants shall issue only on probable cause.
The first clause doesn't tell you every instance in which a warrant would be required. In fact, the first clause doesn't expressly refer to warrants at all. If a warrant was required at common law to enter a field, it's nuts to read the first clause as eliminating that requirement from the second clause simply because the first clause doesn't say "fields."
"If a warrant was required at common law to enter a field, it’s nuts to read the first clause as eliminating that requirement from the second clause simply because the first clause doesn’t say “fields.”"
I am not aware of any authority suggesting that a warant was required to enter a field at common law. There were no search warrants for fields that I am aware of. Search warrants were always for breaking into enclosed spaces like houses.