The Volokh Conspiracy
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UNM Policy Used to Charge High Security Fees for Riley Gaines Talk Struck Down
The case was brought by Turning Point USA over the University of New Mexico's decision to charge over $5K (originally planned to be over $10K).
From yesterday's decision by Judge David Herrera Urias in Leadership Institute v. Stokes (D.N.M.):
Kenna Fleig, one of TP-UNM's co-presidents, submitted an event request form indicating that TP-UNM expected around 100 attendees for an event that would last 3.5 hours. The form noted that [the speaker, Riley Gaines,] travels with her own security, and the students did not want to request additional security. A week later, TP-UNM received an email from UNM informing them that they were required to request and accept university security…. Defendant Stump of the UNM police department … provided the students an invoice that listed the cost of security for the event as $10,202.50….
[T]he quote of over $10,000 was for every officer UNM employed—thirty-three officers; nearly one for every three attendees the students expected. When TP-UNM asked why Defendant Stump intended to assign every officer to the Gaines event, and whether it was because of the speaker or the inviting organization, he responded that "it's all based on individual assessments," that they were looking at the "individual," and that "there is not a criteria [sic]."
He also told the students that if an organization were to screen the Barbie movie in a venue on campus, he likely would not require even a single officer because the UNM police were "not worried about the Barbie movie." He then said that security was "consistent" in how it assessed fees "to Turning Point" in the past. He described past TP-UNM events featuring other conservative speakers that generated protests at UNM. A few times during the meeting, he reiterated that UNM assesses security fees on a "case-by-case basis." …
Ms. Gaines visited the UNM campus on Wednesday, October 4, at 7:00 p.m. and spoke to a crowd of around 200 people until 9:00 p.m. The event was open to members of the public; the tickets were free. Fewer than ten protestors showed up after the event started and demonstrated outside the event room. The demonstration was peaceful and non-disruptive. No police action was taken or needed.
After Ms. Gaines' event, on October 9, 2023, Defendant Stump issued a final invoice to TP-UNM for the event totaling $5,384.75. According to the invoice, the university staffed twenty-seven officers at the event who charged for a total of 95.25 hours. Only four of the twenty-seven officers were stationed inside the event venue. Fifteen officers were stationed in other areas of the building or in nearby buildings; two officers roamed outdoor areas of campus on bike; three were stationed on a nearby rooftop; three were specifically designated as an "Arrest Team."
Forsyth County v. Nationalist Movement (1992) held that the government couldn't charge extra security fees for speech in traditional public fora (streets, sidewalks, and parks) based on the controversial nature of the speech, and it couldn't use vague security fee criteria that left room for such viewpoint discrimination. And the court in this case applied Forsyth County to public universities as well:
When a policy allows "appraisal of facts, the exercise of judgment, and the formation of an opinion by the licensing authority, the danger of censorship and of abridgment of our precious First Amendment freedoms is too great to be permitted[.]" Forsyth County.… Although the question in this case is closer than that in Forsyth, the Court nonetheless finds that Plaintiffs have demonstrated the security fee policy in this case is similar enough to render it overly broad. Although the policy lists criteria for officials to consider when assessing event security, such as venue size and location, the list ultimately leaves the decision of how much to charge for security up to the whim of university officials. For example, the policy does not explain a method for determining how much more security is required for a small venue as compared to a large one, or for a daytime event as compared to a nighttime event.
Significantly, the policy states that the "basic cost of security … will be charged to all groups" based on a schedule of charges that the UNM Police Department has on its website, but despite this, the department does not actually delineate the amount of this "basic cost of security." Though the security fee policy also states that the police department "regularly" updates the "schedule of charges based on the factors" and that "[t]he basic cost of security according to this schedule will be charged to all groups," there is no schedule of charges.
Additionally, the preamble to the policy indicates that university officials "may" assess security fees but does not provide guidance for when they may or may not assess these fees, which contributes to the problem of allowing university officials overly broad discretion. In sum, Plaintiffs have shown a substantial likelihood of success on the merits of their overbreadth claim because the security fee policy does not contain limiting language that includes "narrowly drawn, reasonable and definite standards[,]" and it does not include anything to prevent UNM administrators from exercising their discretion in a content-based manner….
Seems correct to me, especially since the vague standards allow discrimination not just based on content but also based on viewpoint. For a similar holding from another court, see Sonnier v. Crain (5th Cir. 2010).
Benjamin Isgur, Braden Boucek & Carter B. Harrison, IV (Southeastern Legal Foundation) represent plaintiffs.
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Isn't Riley Gaines the sexist female athlete who doesn't want to compete with men?
Yup.
There must be a lot of angry men in dresses at UNM if it takes $10,000 to fend them off.
Sounds like you're describing Scottish Highlanders on a rampage. Yes, security fees are called for.
Riley Gaines is one of those stupid old retards that believe Individuals still have rights. She needs to learn to shut her mouth and spread her legs for democrats who know better than her. She bitches and moans about the democrats trying to kill her and kidnapping her. Does she not know as an American woman she is the property of the democrat party?
She's got a lot to learn.
Ha ha yeah Republicans as defenders of women's rights. Go with that one.
Yeah. To her credit after she and others made a stink about it the organization changed its rules and is now one of the more female-protective. You can’t compete as female if you’ve ever been through male puberty, regardless of present testosterone levels. Which is the correct approach IMO.
I'm uncomfortable at attempts to compromise between sanity and insanity. It sounds like the rule you describe would encourage interventions in boys to block puberty.
How about a rule that you must be a woman to compete?
Far too simple of a solution, MoA
Sounds simple unless one happens to be a Supreme Court justice who can’t define what a woman is, or the IOC.
Savage - the correct approach would be to provide quality mental health treatment
Instead leftist are demanding everyone conform to the Trofim Lysenko version of medical science.
You can’t just make up alternative medical treatments. If quality mental health treatment worked for gender dysphoria, that’s what people would do. Body modification is a last resort, when it’s the only thing that works. Think of it like removing a sixth finger.
Anyway, the left isn't demanding anything of you. Go get quality mental health treatment if that's what you want. We're only demanding that the most safe and effective treatment should remain available for those who need it.
The current fad for treatment of transgender is the equivalent of Trofim Lysenko version of medical science.
Most of the European medical establishment now recognizes that, Unfortunately for those suffering from gender dysphoria, the woke left such as yourself still wants to foist Lysenko medical science upon those most vulnerable.
To the extent it’s a fad, it’s not the woke left foisting things. It’s parents being over-anxious about their kids being trans, even though almost nobody is actually trans. And that’s because it’s in the news all the time. And why is that? Because you guys won’t shut up about how much you hate trans people, passing book bans, bathroom bills, performance bans, and general chicanery… which yes, we feel like we have to defend against, on behalf of the poor actually trans people who the last thing they want is all this attention.
Right wingers wont shut up about it?
Apparently woke leftist who support lysenko version of medical treatment dont want their evil exposed.
Right wingers wont shut up about it?
Yes. Let's look at the evidence, just in this case:
1. Right-wing TP-USA invites anti-trans speaker to UNM
2. Right-wing EV writes several blog posts about it on his high-visibility right-wing blog
3. The very first comment on one of EV's posts is a right-winger highlighting the anti-trans elements of the case
4. In a reply thread, right winger Joe Dallas abandons the free speech theme entirely in order to rant about how much he hates trans people and doctors and leftists
So yes, the right can't seem to shut up about how much they hate trans people.
It's fascinating that progressives define "hate" as "disagree with politically." I'll defer to this as a description of their own attitudes, of course. I'd prefer they not project their hateful attitudes onto others.
It’s fascinating that progressives define “hate” as “disagree with politically.”
You characterize your disagreement with trans people as political? That’s telling. This isn’t ideological to anyone but you. To trans people it's a medical issue. To the left it’s a practical issue about minimizing suffering. It’s only a political issue to the right.
When your ideology includes denying medical care to a disadvantaged population, that is accurately characterized as hateful.
"This isn't a a political issue, it's just a matter of decent people like us versus reactionary evildoers.'"
Um, this discussion is not about sex change operations or hormone blockers; it's about letting biological men play women's sports. That's not a medical issue.
Forget it, he's on a roll.
Um, this discussion is not about sex change operations or hormone blockers
Um, try reading the thread you're replying into, in which your right-wing friends made it about sex change operations and hormone blockers.
I predicted months ago that the left would do exactly what Randal is doing and blame the right for the transgender craze. Give it a few more years and the left will be blaming the right for supporting transgender ideology.
Shall we go to the historical record? The right made trans hate part of their national platform and a nationwide talking point before there was any bathroom access rule in Charlotte, for instance. Which, even if there had been, was just a random local ordinance that could’ve been dealt with within North Carolina until the right decided it would make a great wedge issue against Democrats and started passing bathroom bills, book bans, drag bans, and treatment bans all over the country.
Think about why you're so spun up about it. Is it because of anything the left actually did? Or is it because of MAGA fearmongering that you've been exposed to?
Wow. If you castrate your allies I’d hate to see what you do to your enemies.
"you castrate your allies"
By this logic your response to those who support assisted or decriminalized suicide is "you kill your allies!"
Well, with assisted suicide, I don't like the kind of "love" which encourages people to kill themselves. If that's love, what's hate?
"By this logic your response to those who support assisted or decriminalized suicide is “you kill your allies!"
If you do it to children who say they're sad, sure...
And you saw what happened in Canada, where people who were assed to be likely to use lots of resources were offered assisted suicide inappropriately.
And the lady who asked for a stairlift so she wouldn't have to crawl up and down her stairs?
"Well, we can't get you a stairlift, but if crawling up and down the stairs gets too bad, here's what we can offer..."
Its woke leftist that hate trans
Other than wanting them mutilated and drugged, they love trans people!
As is often the case, conservatives struggle with the idea of consent.
For minors?
You've proved that you can spell right winger; you proved that you can spell hate.
You've asserted that right wing = hate.
But you did not prove your claim; you merely made an assertion assuming your conclusion.
You missed my other post containing that part. Namely,
Randal 2 hours ago
"To the extent it’s a fad, it’s not the woke left foisting things. It’s parents being over-anxious about their kids being trans, even though almost nobody is actually trans. "
If that is true, then why are activists encouraging schools to not inform the parents?
Why has California passed a law to bar teachers from informing parents?
Not a good sign when activists try to lie to prevent exposure
We're talking about treatment for gender dysphoria. Nobody's trying to not inform parents about treatment for gender dysphoria.
Randal – you are seriously ill-informed
No one is trying to hide it the parents - did you forget about the state of California
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-07-15/newsom-bans-schools-from-requiring-that-parents-are-notified-about-student-gender-identity
Where does that say anything about treatment?
The California policy doesn't even "encourage schools to not inform the parents" of anything! It just prevents teachers from being punished if they don't.
On the whole, I think parents should be informed if their child shows symptoms of gender dysphoria... but I'm reluctant to put a whole mandatory disclosure framework in place. All California has done is to say "no whole mandatory disclosure frameworks."
More than 3.2 million US public school students are covered by guidance that blocks parents from knowing whether their child identifies as a different gender in the classroom — which could become federal policy if President Biden’s Title IX proposals are approved in May.
At least 168 districts governing 5,904 schools nationwide have rules on the books that prevent faculty and staff from disclosing to parents a student’s gender status without that student’s permission, according to a list compiled by the conservative group Parents Defending Education and shared with The Post.
https://nypost.com/2023/03/08/us-public-schools-conceal-childs-gender-status-from-parents/
Activists trying to hide the evil.
Yes it does do what I stated.
Normally you guys are all "public schools should stay out of families' private discussions, especially regarding sex!"
Now suddenly you're like, "public schools should be required to insert themselves into the most private of family discussions about their children's sex!"
I think your blind hatred of trans people has broken your brain.
That's not much of a gotcha. How a person behaves in public — which is all that the schools might report to the parents — is inherently not "private."
a) It probably depends on the details of the mandatory disclosure framework in place, but the notion that teachers would have to disclose even private conversations with students about their gender has been raised.
b) But it doesn’t matter, the private discussions I’m talking about are the ones between the child and their parents. Requiring public schools to initiate that conversation seems antithetical to all things conservatives claim to hold dear.
c) What other public behavior of schoolchildren can you think of that schools are legally required to report back to parents?
How they’re doing academically? Disciplinary infractions? Health issues? Extracurricular participation?
Flip your question around: what other behavior of schoolchildren are schools allowed, let alone required, to keep secret from parents?
Academic performance, sure. There’s a report card. Field trips would be another one, via permission slips. No taking the kids to the Zoo without telling mom and dad.
The rest of your examples are all discretionary. I definitely had detention, went to the school nurse for things, and participated in clubs all without my patents being notified.
Flip your question around: what other behavior of schoolchildren are schools allowed, let alone required, to keep secret from parents?
As I said, they’re allowed to keep almost everything secret. I feel like there are some things they’re required to keep secret, like things involving the identites of other kids, such as who’s friends with whom. But for sure it’s not much, and I don’t think gender stuff should be required to be kept secret either.
Almost everything the school tells parents is discretionary, and there are good reasons for that. The things that are required to be disclosed have a formal communication mechanism like a report card, for obvious cya reasons. Do you think report cards should have “preferred gender” on them? How about rating for “gay-seeming?” How about “has kissed a girl / boy?” How about a grade for flirtation skill, or demonstrated sexual knowledge?
"But it doesn’t matter, the private discussions I’m talking about are the ones between the child and their parents. Requiring public schools to initiate that conversation seems antithetical to all things conservatives claim to hold dear."
Now you're just babbling. How would public schools be required to initiate private conversations between children and parents? That doesn't even make sense.
What are you talking about?
"Mr. Pianist, I'm calling to talk to you about your daughter."
"There must be some mistake, I don't have a daughter."
"You do now, Mr. Pianist!"
"Tommy, get over here... what's this about you being a little hussie!"
"Well Dad, I was hoping we could have this private conversation at a better time and place without the participation of Governor DeSantis, but clearly he's decided to involve himself in private family discussions."
That is an odd framing. If I provide information to you, and you later choose to use this information in a discussion with a third party, that does not constitute me involving myself in a discussion between you and that third party.
If I provide information to you, and you later choose to use this information in a discussion with a third party, that does not constitute me involving myself in a discussion between you and that third party.
Perhaps not in general, but it does here, when the purpose of sharing the information is to provoke the private discussion. Do you think these parents are demanding the information so they can simply ignore it? No, they want to use it to confront their children.
Anyway, why are you quibbling with "framing?" I assume it's because you concede the substantive point, which it that policies requiring schools to assess and communicate children's sexual proclivities are normally something that conservatives like to call "grooming" and ban. But not here. Trans hate is a higher priority.
Randal 30 mins ago
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Mute User
"The California policy doesn’t even “encourage schools to not inform the parents” of anything! It just prevents teachers from being punished if they don’t."
Randal - Your response is a flat out lie - you are setting a record for the greatest number of distortions, even after I gave you links.
go back and read the links
Why don't you go back and read your own link about the Newsom bill and point out to me where it encourages schools to keep anything secret from parents.
Specifically, AB 1955 states that a “school district . . . shall not enact or enforce any
policy, rule, or administrative regulation that would require an employee or a contractor to disclose any
information related to a pupil’s . . . gender identity[] or gender expression to any other person without the
pupil’s consent . . .” (emphasis added). This means that, no matter how young a child is, a school cannot
tell the child’s parents the school is socially transitioning their child without the minor’s “consent.”
It does not mean that at all! Man you just have a real reading comprehension problem I think. Re-read the part you quoted, then your summary. Totally different.
There were conservative parts of the state that were trying to require schools to disclose gender identity to parents. This bill nullified those policies. But it doesn't prevent schools from telling parents, or even discourage them from doing so.
Unfortunately, Joe_dallas is relying on his high school biology class and training in bookkeeping again, and Randall is correct. Joe_dallas does not know how to read statutes, apparently.
This statute — which I disagree with — says only that a district cannot mandate that teachers or other school officials disclose this sort of information to parents; it does not say that teachers or other school officials cannot disclose this sort of information.
Where’s the evidence body modification works?
What evidence there is seems to be both extremely poor quality, and inconclusive.
here’s one example of a meta study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/
"Compared to the general population, transgender individuals had an increased odds of being hospitalized after a suicide attempt; however, a statistically significant relationship was not found for the odds of hospitalization after a suicide attempt after adjusting for the amount of time following the initiation of hormone treatment, or since the last surgical treatment. The odds ratios were adjusted for legal gender, age, country of birth, education, urbanicity, and household income. The odds ratios were not adjusted for any potential confounding by psychiatric diagnosis, psychiatric treatment besides inpatient hospitalization for a suicide attempt, or substance abuse."
What conclusion are you inferring from that quote? It seems kind of conclusion-resistant.
Exactly.
You said:
"Body modification is a last resort, when it’s the only thing that works. "
There is no evidence it works.
No other devastatingly invasive medical treatment would be permitted with no evidence of efficacy, let alone having the government mandate insurance companies pay for it.
Whatever happened to 'First do no harm"?
There's tons of evidence that it works. You're just pulling the same old facts-don't-matter intentional ignorance con that MAGA is famous for.
Uh, a narrative review and a "meta study" (meta analysis) are not the same thing.
More like sexy
I think MoA meant sexiest and just misspelled it.
If you're going to use terms like "male" and "female," I’m afraid you’ll have to consult a biologist, if Justice Jackson’s views ever command the majority. Or a porn site, they seemed to have figured it out.
Maybe do it differently, retrospectively. Charge a basic, minimal security fee, with a bond to cover overages based on security needs which arose unexpectedly. Event sponsors pay for the bond, and get the money back if no overages occur. That way an experienced third party gets to set a market rate to reflect presumably actual risk.
There is no sense pretending that injustice to would-be outside speakers (or their sponsors) is done, but no potential financial injustice to the institution is implicated. None of this ought to be regarded as content-based, or viewpoint based, 1A guaranteed expense. Separate the content and the viewpoints from the security costs, and make it a pure business transaction.
What EV seems to want done is especially unwise, if he supposes it will facilitate expressive freedom. The foreseeable practical consequence, if campus organizations are left at liberty to create willy-nilly uncontrolled security cost exposures, will be elimination by the institutions of such an open-ended and potentially costly privilege. Expressive freedom will be narrowed instead of facilitated.
There is also no point to pretend that this issue exists in an ideologically pure context, confined to considerations of expressive freedom. These days, educational institutions themselves have political opponents, motivated to organize and act to inflict harm on the educational institutions. EV’s advocacy would tend to encourage and empower those anti-institutional advocates. I hope that is a point EV overlooked, and not part of his intent.
[deleted]
I am pretending to agree with whatever you deleted. (I don't really know what it was.) I began to compose a response to SL in my head, but quickly deleted it there. (I struggle to quiet my nasty self.)
I miss Rev. Arthur. His opposing position, though tiresome and uncompelling, was at least succinct and even slightly colorful.
Say what you will of his position, it was at least an ethos.
Seriously, though, he gave us a look at the id of the ruling classes, or the would-be ruling classes.
He gave you a look at the id of a sad old man who was an easy target for your ridicule, which is why you miss him. He couldn't have ruled a gay doubles tennis duo.
Your Helm of Telepathy doesn't seem to be working. You can't read minds worth a fuck.
You, Randal, sound like one of “our betters.” You seem unable to channel a worldview so low as mine, or even, it seems, the Rev’s. I’ve long observed that you, like so many of your comrades, have little of substance in common, other than the same enemies.
Calling the Rev a “sad old man.” Screw you and your vision.
I’ve long observed that you, like so many of your comrades, have little of substance in common, other than the same enemies.
This is the first smart thing you've said. I encourage you to think on this, its causes and its implications. Especially next time you're tempted to accuse us of some form of groupthink.
Did you miss the part about how this has been the law for more than 30 years?
Noscitur — There is no law to require universities to empower campus organizations to invite outside speakers. If administrators decide not to do that, then expressive freedom will be diminished by the judge-made law you so admire.
Did you miss the part about how outsiders have lately systematized university disruptions, by inviting especially disruptive speakers, to—among other things—racially target black students.
That’s your biased opinion. I guess you missed the part about the First Amendment. “When a policy allows "appraisal of facts, the exercise of judgment, and the formation of an opinion by the licensing authority, the danger of censorship and of abridgment of our precious First Amendment freedoms is too great to be permitted.”
"Noscitur — There is no law to require universities to empower campus organizations to invite outside speakers."
No, but there is a law saying that if they do, they have to do without viewpoint based restrictions, or arbitrary criteria.
Required security fees based on third-party disruptions is about as arbitrary as it gets.
Required security fees based on third-party disruptions is about as arbitrary as it gets.
I'm not sure that's "arbitrary" - there's a rational explanation for the variability of fees, according to the quantum of third party disruption.
If Lathrop was not carefully ignoring the fact that UNM is the government, his diatribe would make more a little more sense.
As to a university's mission to promote free expression in the pursuit of the advancement of knowledge, even rational financial discrimination against unpopular expression would be likely to run counter to the mission. But not all universities have that mission.
"I’m not sure that’s “arbitrary” – there’s a rational explanation for the variability of fees, according to the quantum of third party disruption."
It's based on the arbitrary decisions of third parties. How is that different than being based on the arbitrary decisions of the University?
Why not assume for-profit third parties competing for the bond business on the basis of actuarial assessments? If they do that arbitrarily, presumably they go out of business.
Sigh. It's based on the arbitrary (or, more likely, viewpoint based) decision of third parties (potentially affiliated with the university) to cause a disturbance.
The decisions of third-parties to cause disturbances also aren't arbitrary, my dear tiny pianist.
Really the instigators of these situations are the right-wing groups that have taken to trolling universities by intentionally inviting the most lurid, despicable speakers they can find.
immature violent behavior from the left is the fault of rational right wing ?
Who knew!
But... there wasn't any immature violent behavior.
You've now taken to complaining about imaginary people doing imaginary things in order to justify the right's immature behavior which is actually happening before our eyes.
What makes Riley Gaines lurid and despicable?
The Penguin Random House speakers' bureau promotes its author, Ta-Nehisi Coates.
https://www.prhspeakers.com/speakers-for-colleges-and-universities
Since Coates is more despicable than Gaines, by Randal's logic he should face more disruption, and hence his sponsors should have higher security fees (on top of the no-doubt-modest speaker fees Coates charges).
"You’ve now taken to complaining about imaginary people doing imaginary things"
That's what the university is doing with its security fees.
“You’ve now taken to complaining about imaginary people doing imaginary things”
That’s what the university is doing with its security fees.
Almost, but not really... at the time it was a prediction. A failed one, to be sure. Still, that's different than Joe's complaining about something that we now know didn't happen.
I recall the frequent cries of "you didn't answer my question!" on this blog.
So, why not answer *my* question: What makes Riley Gaines lurid and despicable?
"You’ve now taken to complaining about imaginary people doing imaginary things..."
You were able to figure out that I was responding to a hypo posed by Stephen? Now that's using your big boy brain!
"The decisions of third-parties to cause disturbances also aren’t arbitrary, my dear tiny pianist."
You don't think they're arbitrary for purposes of the law at issue here? Care to support that claim?
You were able to figure out that I was responding to a hypo...
Whereas you weren't able to figure out that I wasn't responding to you at all. That's using your tiny pianist brain!
You don’t think they’re arbitrary for purposes of the law at issue here?
Based even on the portions of the opinion Eugene quoted, I think a more objective standard of assessing fees based on expectations of campus disruption would be allowable... if such a thing is possible. It probably is possible... you could look at past events on other campuses hosting the same speaker, for example.
So, why not answer *my* question?
My attorney raised an objection and it was sustained.
I could always follow the example of other commenters and harass you through multiple threads as a non-question-answerer, but that would be really tiring. I'm not sure how the other commenters do it.
wise
Well, in your view, is health care rational? Funding is based on the wiles of such “third party” incidentals as whether people get sick, get into accidents, have congenital conditions, etc. All these things are completely arbitrary. Germs in particular don’t behave rationally at all. So by the standard you set, health care funding ought to be unconstitutional.
Same with fire departments and other emergency responses. There’s nothing rational about how fires and other emergencies break out and hence how funds to respond to them get expended. They tend to do so completely arbitrarily, unpredictably,, even randomly. So since expenditure is similarly dependent on arbitrary factors, by your standard fire department and other emergency response expenditures are also unconstitutional.
So far as rational basis is concerned, it’s just as rational for government to respond to the wiles of people as it is for it to respond to the wiles of fires, floods, and germs. Rational basis no more implies a command that ordinary people behave in accordance with what judges think is rational than it implies a command that the sun behave in a way that judges think is rational by, for example, orbiting around the earth rather than the other way around. It’s rational for the state to respond to the way people in fact empirically behave, rational or not, just as it’s rational for the state to respond to the way nature empirically behaves, whether we think it rational or not.
Lathrop has repeatedly stated that he doesn’t believe public schools should be treated as the government, for first amendment purposes. Among his many anti-free speech positions is the delusional notion that applying the 1A to public schools is actually a conservative attempt to destroy public schools.
It's an easy mistake to make. Conservatives are, after all, admittedly attempting to destroy public shools. So it's easy to suspect that this sudden interest in campus free speech could be a part of it.
Conservatives are attempting to prevent the further destruction of public schools
Just look at the rapid decline in Minnesota schools Walz's reign as governor.
"Just look at the rapid decline in Minnesota schools Walz’s reign as governor."
Lol!
in other words - you failed to acknowledge the rapid decline in student performance during the Walz reign as governor.
in other words – you failed to acknowledge the rapid decline in student performance during the Walz reign as governor.
Apparently you arent even aware of the rapid decline in student performance in MN during the Walz reign as governor.
I remember when Joe_dallas put actual effort into sock puppets. Now they don't even get different names.
Minnesota remains above average in education; and the entire country has declined in education.
"Dangerous speech" requires extra security, which costs.
This is just a roundabout heckler's veto.
And yet adminstrators haven’t decided that, despite the clear-cut legal regime existing for 30 years. That’s the point: the emergencies that inspire you to beard-strokingly insist that you’re the only real defender of free speech because only you love it enough to save it by destroying it, never actually seem to materialize.
I did miss that! Can you point me to a couple of examples of what you have in mind?
Noscitur, you sound like Trump, ready with a rejoinder to any embarrassing question, to say he knows nothing about (pick from a long list of people, issues, and legal charges he has to dodge constantly).
You asked if I was aware of a situation. The answer is no, I’m not aware of it. If you’d like to enlighten me, I stand by ready to learn! If not… well, I suppose I’ll have to draw some conclusion from that as well.
That sounds even more like Trump. Doubling down is a big part of it.
So you made it up. Got it, and wish I could claim to be surprised.
What's so special about Noscitur?
Why can't I ever be the one that sounds like Trump?
If you think it's real you can damn well give him an example of it when he calls you on that. If you can't give an example, he has no good reason to think it's real.
Arromdee — Noscitur wants me to particularize so he can quibble about the particulars. He ignores flagrant examples aplenty, of outside speakers brought to campuses to attack blacks, and especially to call them unworthy of educational equality. Some outside trolls parade their attacks as scientific, others just spew hate, but what unites them is anti-black racism.
People who hate public education seek to use that racist hatred for political leverage. Those attacks undermine the authority of university administrators, who have rightly been tasked to guard equal educational opportunity for black students. If those administrators open the door to outside speakers who come to taunt and revile black students, and then the administrators, with their hands legally tied, do nothing to defend the black students, a campus environment hostile to black students gets a foothold. Anti-black racists on campus begin personal attacks on fellow students, just as the anti-black outside speakers intended. The university administrators then get attacked as powerless, or ineffectual, or even called racists themselves—consequent to right-wing dogma that anti-racism is the new racism.
Demands to get rid of higher public education follow. Look no farther than this blog for abundant comments showing all those tendencies.
If he wants to, Noscitur can find examples like those in seconds. Not that he needs to; he knows this stuff. And he can look to the Supreme Court for its recent anti-blacks in education decision—a decision inspired and managed by Edward Blum, an outside-troll, and anti-black agitator, who mobilized right-wing funding to make it happen.
Blum promises to do more. With the exception of some of the Justices themselves, Blum is currently this nation's most consequential anti-black racist.
For another less-consequential instance, look above for Margrave, trolling by calling Ta-Nehisi Coates despicable. Coates is ferociously particular. He is a model example to justify outside speaking. Because Coates got to add education to a determined and brilliant temperament, he is equipped to mop the floor with anti-black trolls, by substantive, unanswerable takedowns.
I expect you too to quibble about particulars. That's how you guys roll. I have no patience left to indulge arguments—and consequent actions—so plainly malicious. Loyalty to maliciously false right-wing media, and bananas-in-your-ears deafness to reality, is no way to go through life.
I know I cannot persuade folks of that ilk to do otherwise. I can do my bit to heap them with scorn. All this is less about laws than about norms, especially about some of the most-dearly-purchased norms ever—the ones in this nation against anti-black racism. Here, the people look to laws to suppress crimes. To suppress racist norm-breaking the people use scorn. You can have it if you want it. It's up to you.
What I specifically said is that Coates is *more* despicable than Gaines, which is true, though I should have made clear that Coates seems among the least objectionable of the race-baiters and may not seem despicable by an *absolute* standard. Still, what he’s done is worse than anything which can be pinned on Gaines.
Coates’ putting Jordan Peterson’s philosophy into the mouth of a comic-book villain, his anti-Zionism, and his attitude toward whites, exclude him from the praise SL tries to bestow on him and makes him worse than Gaines, whose "crime" is to want woman's sports to be for women only.
One wonders why right-wingers don’t disrupt his speeches – after all, he disagrees with them, doesn’t he? So, the right-wingers being the focus of evil in the universe, one wonders why their *squadristi* don’t try and shut down the speeches of Coates, Kendi, DiAngelo (sp?), and the rest.
Unless this whole speech-disruption thing is the preserve of one faction?
In fact, he did not ignore any such examples; rather, he asked you for them, and you were unable to provide even one such example.
EDIT: Though to be fair, since the rest of your logorrheic comment makes it clear that you label the mere opposition to special racial preferences as “racist,” it’s likely that you could provide examples by your standards, if you weren’t more interested in pomposity than conversation. But I suspect you correctly realize that nobody else would accept that framing.
So, the right-wingers being the focus of evil in the universe, one wonders why their *squadristi* don’t try and shut down the speeches of Coates, Kendi, DiAngelo (sp?), and the rest.
Margrave — Who needs reliance on powerless *squadristi* when you can try by passage of a Stop WOKE Act to get the job done legislatively?
Also, I have to admire *squadristi* as invective coinage, but for all the wrong reasons. Novelty, ambiguity, and vague allusion combine to deliver a broader-than-usual invective punch.
We can handle rape investigations the same way. Students post a bond, and if they're not raped, they get the bond back. That way the students who create the expense are the ones paying the costs.
That way the school doesn't have to let students willy-nilly create
uncontrolled security cost exposures by wearing shot skirts or walking home alone at night.
Yeah, the basic premise that the people who are effectively victims of threats and violence should bear the cost seems flawed. Especially as it incentivizes troublemakers to make more threats if they know they’re financially screwing over the speaker they don’t like by doing so.
All you are doing is disagreeing with me if I insist that either party to a deliberately initiated campus controversy could turn out to be the victim. In short, more right-wing whining about getting victimized, especially if anything gets in the way of right-wingers who intend to victimize others.
One side is obeying the rules while the other side breaks the rules. One side is exercising their free speech rights on a topic of public concern while the other side seeks to block the exercise of free speech by breaking the rules and that includes violence and other criminal actions. They are not equal.
Under your standard MLK would be required to pay when the KKK disrupted a speech he was given on civil rights.
If your position is that non-violent speech that offends some people on a deeply personal level but that doesn’t rise to the level of harassment, incitement, or threats can nonetheless create “victims” out of those who are offended then I do disagree, yes.
I’m a liberal FWIW, though of a pretty hardline pro-free-speech bent which is not the direction the left is going these days.
Correct. Being offended or outraged is not being victimized. Being prevented from speaking (either by banning outright or through financial penalties), is being victimized.
TI — Or, you could turn the whole business of rape investigations over to public prosecutors, which I am pretty sure is a solution you would join me in supporting.
I certainly agree that Universities should not be investigating rapes, but maybe they shouldn't be providing security for these events either.
But we're just shifting the cost to prosecutors, why could still issue bonds in the manner we're talking about.
. . . but maybe they shouldn’t be providing security for these events either.
So I was attempting to find a way to make someone else responsible for security,
and you were . . . objecting?
For someone who is always lecturing us about the importance of the framers, Stephen, you certainly have completely un-American notions of governmental control of speech.
Look, Forsyth County was rightly decided. How convenient it is if you can just "charge" speakers for the "security costs" of exercising their First Amendment rights. Good way to impose Soviet style censorship on any speech Stephen doesn't like.
Your views are abominable and I am proud that my great country's legal system thinks you are full of crap.
Esper, I do not lecture you about the importance of the framers. I lecture you about the importance to understand the framers in their own context, if you intend to cite them in connection with some present purpose. I do that with an eye to warning off the stupidity of that specific and all-too-common misuse of purported history.
There is only one valid use for that kind historical research. To answer as accurately as may be the question, "What happened in the past." Note that answering that question is completely unrelated in any intellectually valid way to a question such as, "What would be a valid gun control policy now?"
It is for those reasons, among others, that I oppose originalism. Of course I do not deny that it can be fun to reference actual history to blow up fantastical and romantic substitute tales, created by present-minded non-historians with present-minded purposes. But if you suppose I do that to insist history requires any present policy or occurrence at all, then you need to pay better attention.
Also, your invective is incoherent. Try instead to be responsive to what I actually write. That will help keep you on track.
The framers would have wanted us to use the constitution to solve the practical problems of the day. In this case, there's a huge problem with allowing people with totalitarian mindsets like you to impose "security charges" on people for exercising their constitutional right to free speech. The courts are doing exactly what the framers would have wanted them to do here. And it makes me proud to be an American that they reject your theories.
Esper, imagine a nightmare hypothetical. You have a pretend scholar, without academic credentials, who for decades has been espousing what he insists is scientific proof that black people are inherently stupid, anamalistic, genetically crime prone, and unworthy of a place at a public university.
At the behest of a right-wing governor, who insists he is defending free speech, a university in the governor's state invites that fake-science racist to give a public talk under university auspices. Do you think it is totalitarian to oppose that? Do you think a black student at that university would be totalitarian to oppose it?
Would it be wrong to denounce a university president who permitted that? Would it be wrong to denounce a governor who encouraged it?
If any of those practices were okay to do, why would you label them totalitarian? Or is it just bad if public policy, as a matter of law, sets up neutral criteria which exclude from a limited public forum that nightmare presenter?
Esper — Any time you find yourself using anything resembling the construction, "the framers would have," whatever follows will always be a grotesque concoction combining groundless speculation with anachronistic present-minded critical standards. Don't do it unless you do not care whether you look ignorant to everyone who ever got professional training to do historical research. Don't do it even if you think your grotesquerie sounds plausible. That just makes it worse.
Esper — Equation to totalitarianism of the practice of private editing prior to publication seems peculiar. Do you suppose Samuel Adams was a totalitarian? Benjamin Franklin? Tom Paine? All were seasoned editors of others' contributions prior to publication. Some might at times have elected to forego doing it; none allowed themselves to be stripped of the power to edit prior to publishing.
More broadly, was practice of totalitarianism the principal 20th century history of U.S. publishing prior to Section 230?
Your commentary has veered out of control.
Joe Biden effectively ended Rudy Giuliani's political career by quipping that everything he said was "noun, verb, 9/11." But he had nothing on Lathrop, whose everything is "noun, verb, 230."
He ignorantly insists that publishing is legally distinct from speech, but then here he randomly brings up publishing when we're talking about speech!
And the only thing that seems peculiar is your use of "private" when you mean "government."
Nieporent, I choose, "private," to invoke unlimited diversity of expression. "Private," encompasses all those various expressions together. "Government," by contrast, means a single point of view, enforced by policy or law. I embrace the former, and adamantly oppose the latter.
On that last point I have been repetitively clear. You, in bad faith, continue to mischaracterize what I say.
Once again, Lathrop comes down against free speech. But he will rant and rave angrily again when called on it, and in the next thread will deny that he ever does so.
What's even worse is that he will sanctimoniously claim himself to be the True Supporter of Free Speech based on his "We had to destroy the village in order to save it" attitude.
Nieporent, your experience-free, hyper-rationalist rants are noted. Start with certain axioms, ignore experience, and it becomes easy to convince yourself you can reason your way to facts. It is a process featuring a malevolent tendency to dismiss as mistaken any alleged facts which arise to challenge cherished axioms.
With that kind of approach, you will never comprehend why someone who prioritizes relevant experience ahead of rationalism, and who has experience, might reason differently than you do.
The village you mention has all along been no more substantive than a mirage. It never needed destroying; it never existed.
Your vision of expressive freedom perfected—entertained without reference to either political or material practicalities which impose limitations, is utopian. In the history of the world, no such expressive regime has ever existed, for anyone. No power on earth has ever been found which could deliver it.
Yet you stupidly denounce as inimical any experience-based cautions you encounter. To take rationalism to that extreme is unwise.
It’s amusing by any measure that Stephen Lathrop has chosen “logic” as his latest hobbyhorse, but this argument is a failure on its own terms. In the generation that this has been the law, the bad consequences that Stephen Lathrop is afraid of haven’t happened. Despite that reality, he chooses to “[i]gnore experience”, hypotheticate a possible problem, and theorize a solution. And wouldn’t you know it—it happens to be the answer that involves restricting speech!
Noscitur, the argument failing on its own terms is the one predicated on a notion that I invoked, "logic," a word I did not mention. Learn to distinguish, "logic," from, "rationalism," and you will be started on a better path.
To help you down that path, permit me to recommend a source I have cited repeatedly over the years, an essay by conservative English philosopher/historian Michael Oakeshott: Rationalism in Politics. You seem to have all your faculties still functioning. If so, it's not too late to read it and become more reflective.
Your experience-free, irrational rants are noted.
It exists now. And you want to destroy it based on the pretense that you're protecting speech by censoring it so that it won't make people mad. But in fact it's because all you care about is empowering professionals at the expense of the public.
Nieporent — Once again, here is the internet utopians' demand: Anonymous, world-wide, cost-free, liability-free, publishing power for everyone, to say anything at all, without government censorship, without prior private editing, and without post-publication take-downs by the publisher.
When in the history of the world has anyone ever enjoyed such limitless publishing power? Never. Not one person. Yet you insist it is a reality now for everyone.
You comment as a hyper-individualist, who combines a wish-fulfillment problem, with a dearth of practical knowledge about the publishing subject.
I concede you are in plentiful company. It may take persistent frustration over a long interval before so many insisting they are right together, find out by shared experience that they have been wrong together.
My concern is that the nation's public life may be disintegrating quicker than that interval of dismal discovery is destined to last. Just the contests to win government-imposed publishing preferences for some, at the expense of others, could consume decades to play out.
However long it takes, nothing is going to make internet publishing work the way you want it to work. Let alone work the way you insist credulously that it already does work.
Want a reality check? What has been happening to news gathering? Do you think the public life of the nation can do without news gathering? Do you expect the sum-total of millions of Joe Keyboard-style uninformed opinions to coalesce magically into accurate insight into government insiders' activities and intentions? What happens when this perfectly-functioning publishing engine you admire has killed off the last vestiges of professional news gathering, and nobody knows anything?
Are you incapable to suppose that journalistic professionals—including professionals pursuing self-interests—do not thereby serve both public and private interests other than their own? What happened to the famous free-market admonition about the public advantages of the butcher's self-interest, as opposed to his benevolence?
By the way, your last sentence examples the worst sort of Bellmorean telepathy. Sounds just as paranoid, too. Read it again:
But in fact it’s because all you care about is empowering professionals at the expense of the public.
What would be wrong with policy to empower professionals for the benefit of the public, while empowering the public too? Where does that nasty little impulse to lash out against professionals come from? Do you echo like-minded others? Does it come from within? Are you not a professional yourself?
What if universities charged the protesters the security fees?
Either per person, and/or per sign, and/or per arrest.
UNM's foundation is currently sitting on about a third of a billion dollars.
This ain't about them actually needing a few grand here or there. Thankfully the judge appears to have ferreted that out without too much trouble.
Brian — A few grand here or there quickly adds up to a substantive fraction of a $333 million peanut.
Why are Democrats so violent towards people with different opinions?
A better question is why are democrats so violent towards people with sane and rational opinions, opinions which are based on solid medical science.
The person who has now admitted he's nothing other than a bookkeeper shows his scientific expertise yet again!
Why would you be rude to someone just because of what they do for a living? What a jackass!
Do you take your kids to a bookkeeper for their medical treatments?
You shouldn’t take your son to *anyone* to be castrated, except in rare emergencies - for example, testicular cancer.
I am not being rude to him "just because of" what he does for a living. I am being rude to him because he pretends to be an expert in multiple scientific and technical fields without having any training, expertise, or even experience in any of those fields.
If he were to write about GAAP, I would not assume he was necessarily talking out of his ass. (Though based on his posting history I would take it with a grain of salt.)
An accountant who remembers his high school and college biology unlike most of the leftist posting here who remain intentionally ignorant of basic science facts normally learned in junior high and high school.
Doesn't seem to be the case here, does it?
The campus cops in this case saw an opportunity for OT grift and got themselves caught up in a First Amendment lawsuit by a bunch of right-wing grifters itching for a fight. Maybe the question you should be asking is why TP is wasting anyone's time or energy with this kind of bullshit. Does anyone care what a 24-year-old former athlete has to say about trans issues? She doesn't have a face for FoxNews; she'll have to walk all this back when MAGA doesn't think she's "hot enough" any more.
So she should lose because you think she's ugly? This is on par with NG's comment about how women with big tits are liars.
The left never misses an opportunity to show that they're the real misogynists, just like they're the real racists.
We all spotted and discarded your weak-ass "I'm rubber you're glue" defense of the right's misogyny.
The old, "I'm not misogynistic, I'm just describing how a misogynist would view this speaker" defense.
Are you trying to convince me that you, you, have never watched Fox News?
I watched it a very few times, and read some moderately amusing books by some of their personalities, but not enough to see the laboratory in which they invented Riley Gaines.
Can you imagine an event where she talks for 2 1/2 hours? There has to be something more fun to do for an evening at UNM. Or maybe even more educational.
If the speech was so boring, why did the university call attention to it with its discriminatory fees? Maybe it's the administrators who were trolling - behaving unconstitutionally, knowing that they'd be slapped down in court, but advertising to all the right people that they truly *wanted* to censor wrongthink.
Or maybe they just wanted $10k?
"She doesn’t have a face for FoxNews; she’ll have to walk all this back when MAGA doesn’t think she’s “hot enough” any more."
"So she should lose because you think she’s ugly?"
This is clearly not an opinion on the merits of the legal case but a criticism of FoxNews' view of women. As your leader says: Sad!
Fox News, and certain political personalities, seem to be standing in for Emmanuel Goldstein.
Or maybe the Rothschilds are right-wing and are using their weather machines to promote global warming?
It's a personal assessment of her looks, combined, perhaps, with an ignorance of the fact that she frequently appears on Fox News.
Since one of the actual flashpoints in trans policy debates is participation in athletics, I would think the lived experience [heh] of an athlete would be relevant information.
Especially given that this particular athlete had to compete against, and share a locker room with, the guy who eventually won the NCAA women's swimming championship.
Ever gone out into a multi-thousand seat swimming arena, to compete wearing nothing but a tank suit? If you think locker room privacy matters compared to that, you might not be cut out to try it.
Are you mansplaining what a female college athlete might think about her own locker room?
Indeed he is
Nope, Nieporent, I'm relaying what female athletes told me about their own experiences, and the challenges to throw off inhibitions those experiences demanded. There is more to it that I could explain to you, but I understand this is yet another field where I have personal experience, and you have rationalistic insight that I must be wrong. I may have been a slow learner, but I am getting to where I can recognize this particular futility when it repeats itself.
"personal experience" is you being a female woman swimmer sharing a locker room with male women swimmers.
Your hearsay, on the other hand, isn't that.
Nieporent — Perhaps I should add that as a young man I coached several age-group swimming teams. This issue, viewed broadly as a challenge to personal modesty, presented variously, and at about age 11 or 12 predictably became a make-or-break decision point among very talented female swimmers. Cultural differences, parental concerns, personal temperament, athletic potential, and probably a lot of other stuff figured in.
"Nieporent, I’m relaying what female athletes told me about their own experiences..."
At least, that's what the ones who didn't have to pay security fees before speaking told him.
TIP — If you were ranking your comments from smart to stupid, where do you think that one would fall?
This is true. Non-academics are, unfortunately, not infrequent guests on college campuses to illustrate causes the left cares about.
"Non-academics are, unfortunately, not infrequent guests on college campuses..."
That's terrible. One tried to move into our neighborhood last year, fortunately we were able to prevent it.
She appears to know quite a bit. She testified before the Senate, completely destroying the HRC president's claim that sex doesn't affect athletic ability.
Just saw she decided not to go to Dental school, And man is she a weirdo, married (to a man!) Christian, and doesn’t want to compete against swimmers with Dicks. She’ll probably do something crazy like have kids and take care of them herself.
Frank
That's so anti-LGBTQ!
Here is Jack Marshall's take.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2024/09/28/our-anti-democratic-indoctrination-camps-get-slapped-down-again/
This is the way leftists are. They also think that gun owners who get permits should pay the full cost of any "investigation" or "background check."
But if you demanded that gay men pay for an HIV test every time they bareback another dude, they'd flip out.
Right-wing organization invites the newest right-wing grifter to say obnoxious things about trans people, in the hopes that this generates a big protest that they can plaster in right-wing outrage media for attention. The protest doesn't materialize. Right-wing organization gets a padded security bill
Rather than pay it and move on, the right-wing organization hires a right-wing legal advocacy group to challenge the bill. Wins a preliminary injunction.
Eugene: "Seems correct to me."
I don't imagine there's much going on here than the usual - right-wing organizations inviting speakers to campus despite those speakers' having no academic credentials or apparent relevance to the campus community, campus cops using the opportunity to offload payroll expenses, etc.
Your disapproval of the viewpoint of the speaker seems to factor quite heavily into your free speech analysis.
That's often a pretty good indication that your analysis is bullshit.
Huh? He didn't offer a free-speech analysis. He offered a rebuttal to all your hollywood whining.
Here's your ilk:
Why are Democrats so violent towards people with different opinions?
Simon's pointing out that... there was no protest to speak of! Certainly no violence. Much to the chagrin of Talking Point USA, no doubt, whose trolling attempt failed. Trolling is free speech, sure, although I can see how the university finds this game pretty lame.
"Huh? He didn’t offer a free-speech analysis."
Right you are.
"Here’s your ilk:
Why are Democrats so violent towards people with different opinions?"
Huh? That's not "my ilk", that's UNM, remember? They're the ones who said that they need to assign every police officer available to the Riley Gaines event to prevent violence, but wouldn't have had to do so for a left wing event.
"Simon’s pointing out that… there was no protest to speak of! Certainly no violence."
Uh, which may or may not be due to the additional security TP was required to provide.
Other than that, great comment.
"They’re the ones who said that they need to assign every police officer available to the Riley Gaines event to prevent violence, but wouldn’t have had to do so for a left wing event."
The only other type of event mentioned was The Barbie Movie. Would showing The Barbie Movie be this "left wing event" of which you speak?
Yes.
"Certainly no violence. Much to the chagrin of Talking Point USA, no doubt, whose trolling attempt failed."
It wasn't TP that claimed there was sure to be violence and charged themselves for the entire campus police department.
So she has no "academic credentials"
Is that supposed to be worse than "Trofim Lysenko version of medical science."
I suspect her layman's knowledge of medical science, biology is vastly superior to leftist expert who is immersed in the Trofim Lysenko version of medical science.
Why should anyone pay a padded bill?
Speaking of the Barbie movie, I hear Matel has a hot new product, the Hezbollah Ken doll.
Well, it's actually just a Ken doll.
I don’t get it.
Oh I get it.
I think Stephen Lathrop is making a coherent argument here, agree with it or not. He is arguing that if universities are forced to bear the security costs of controversial outside speakers, and are not allowed to apportion costs based on security needs, then this will not avoid the heckler’s veto problem, because hecklers can make it cost universities so much to allow controversial speakers that they will be forced to close their doors to all outside speakers, and this will result in less speech overall.
A number of commentators have attempted to attack this argument on grounds that Stephen “opposes free speech,” and, since free speech is good, an argument that it will lead to bad consequences can’t be right.
I just want to point out here that this counter-argument is not a good one. It just ain’t so. Consequences are what they are. Good intentions often end up having bad consequences. The idea “if our intentions are good, the consequences must be good” is often proved wrong by the complex and unpredictable world we live in.
I just want to point out that the argument against Stephen is the contrapositive of this argument. It’s in effect “If somebody believes the consequences won’t be good, his intentions must not be good.” I just want to point out that when a proposition just ain’t so, its contrapositive also just ain’t so.
One can’t attack a prediction about the future by an appeal to values. The fact that we believe in something strongly doesn’t guarantee that if we stick to it, only good will come. We may want to believe this. We may want to believe this very badly. But while the intensity of our feelings can make us subjectively feel more certain, they cannot in fact give us certainty.
No, the counterargument has been that Lathrop’s prediction has already failed. This court decision isn’t breaking any new ground. The status quo doesn’t see hecklers driving universities to decline to allow any speakers to campus over security costs.
The observation that Lathrop is anti-free-speech comes from his long history of positions on various issues, all of which have this element in common. It's not just this one thing.
Well, where does that take us? It would mean a student group at UMiss could invite the Grand Kleagle, but not MLK. And the logic works the same for any government entity, not just public universities. So D.C. could have charged MLK, or Frederick Douglass, prohibitive fees, and we wouldn't have heard 'I have a dream' on the mall.
No thanks. I'll deal with Mr. Lathrop's parade of horribles when and if it happens. So far, though, his predictions have been about as accurate as Dr. Ed's trucker strikes.