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"Equity Training" Requirement for Public Employees Didn't Violate First Amendment, Even When …
employees were required to "correctly" answer multiple choice questions based on the training content.
From Henderson v. Springfield R-12 School Dist., decided Friday by Eighth Circuit Chief Judge Steven Colloton, joined by Judges James Loken and Jane Kelly:
During the 2020-21 school year, the school district required employees to attend a presentation entitled, "Fall District-Wide Equity Training." Attendees were paid for their time and received professional-development credit.
The school district provided in-person and virtual training. At the in-person training, school officials instructed the attendees on how to become "Anti-Racist educators, leaders and staff members." The district defined "anti-racism" as "the work of actively opposing racism by advocating for changes in political, economic, and social life." The presenters cautioned that actions like practicing color-blindness and remaining silent about racism perpetuated white supremacy.
The presenters stated, "We want to stress that we are not calling you as an individual a white supremacist. That being said, certain actions or statements … can support that structural system of white supremacy." The presenters also displayed an "Oppression Matrix" that categorized various social groups as a privileged, oppressed, or border group. For example, within the category of race, the matrix identified white people as a privileged social group, biracial people as a border group, and Asian, Latina/o, black, and native people as oppressed social groups. At the virtual training, the school district provided similar instruction.
Some employees were also required to complete online modules in which they watched videos, read articles, and answered multiple-choice questions relating to equity and diversity. For example, one question asked: "When you witness racism and xenophobia in the classroom, how should you respond?" Employees could select one of two options: (1) "Address the situation in private after it has passed"; or (2) "Address the situation the moment you realize it is happening." The module deemed the second option the correct answer. If the employee selected the first option, then a message appeared explaining why the choice was "incorrect." To complete the module, employees had to select the "correct" answer.
The training sessions were interactive. At the in-person training, attendees were asked to speak with one another about specific prompts related to the presentation's content. In the online training, participants were similarly required to speak with other virtual attendees. Both training sessions included an exercise called "Four Corners," in which attendees had to hold up a sign stating whether they agreed or disagreed with various prompts, such as "I believe my students or staff feel safe in Springfield" and "I believe [the school district] provides an engaging, relevant and collaborative learning and working environment.
At both training sessions, instructors displayed a slide entitled "Guiding Principles" in which one line read: "Be Professional—Or be Asked to Leave with No Credit." No attendee was asked to leave, denied pay, or refused credit because of his or her conduct during the sessions. No employee discipline resulted from these sessions.
Brooke Henderson attended the virtual training. Henderson is a Section 504 Process Coordinator. At the training, Henderson expressed her view that Kyle Rittenhouse acted in self-defense during a Black Lives Matter protest in 2020. The presenter responded that Henderson was "confused" and "wrong." Henderson alleges that after this dialogue with the presenter, she stopped speaking out of fear that she would be asked to leave for being unprofessional. She also alleges that during the "Four Corners" exercise, she responded that she agreed with some prompts solely because she feared that if she disagreed, she would be asked to leave without receiving credit or pay. Henderson also completed the virtual modules. She alleges that she selected answers with which she did not agree so that she would receive credit for the training.
Jennifer Lumley attended the in-person training. Lumley is a secretary. At the training, Lumley stated that she did not believe that all white people were racist, and that people of other races could be racist. She shared a personal anecdote about her niece-in-law, a black woman who married a white man, and how "some black people had told her she did not 'count' as black anymore." The presenter responded that black people could be prejudiced, but not racist. Lumley also stated that she did not believe that she was privileged because she grew up in a low-income household. The presenter responded that Lumley "was born into white privilege." Like Henderson, Lumley alleges that after this interaction, she stopped speaking because she feared that she would be asked to leave.
Plaintiffs sued, but the court concluded that their First Amendment rights weren't violated, because they were not punished for their speech or lack of speech:
The plaintiffs suggest … that they were punished because they were "shamed" and "forced to assume the pejorative white supremacist label for their 'white silence.'" They rely on Gralike v. Cook (8th Cir. 1999), aff'd by the Supreme Court (2001), where this court held unconstitutional a Missouri law requiring that state election ballots identify any candidates who opposed or refused to express a view on congressional term limits. We concluded that the law "threaten[ed] a penalty that is serious enough to compel candidates to speak—the potential political damage of the ballot labels." We explained that the labels were "phrased in such a way" that they were "likely to give (and we believe calculated to give) a negative impression not only of a labeled candidate's views on term limits, but also of his or her commitment and accountability to his or her constituents." The plaintiffs here argue that by associating silence and dissenting views with white supremacy during the training, the school district imposed a similar punishment.
We decline to adopt the plaintiffs' broad reading of Gralike. Unlike the State in Gralike, the school district's presenters did not assign an epithet to the plaintiffs akin to a label next to a person's name on an election ballot. Instead, they chose to "stress that we are not calling you as an individual a white supremacist," while explaining their view that "certain actions or statements … can support that structural system of white supremacy." Nor did the training program "threaten a penalty" comparable to the "political damage" inflicted on candidates who disfavored term limits or remained silent on the issue in Gralike. The plaintiffs were required to endure a two-hour training program that they and others thought was misguided and offensive. But they were not forced to wear an arm-band classifying them as white supremacists or to suffer any comparable penalty.
The plaintiffs also argue that the defendants indirectly discouraged them from remaining silent or voicing dissenting views, both during the training sessions and in their private lives…. The plaintiffs rely primarily on the presenters' guidance to "Be Professional—Or be Asked to Leave with No Credit." They also refer to statements by the presenters telling attendees to "speak [their] truth," "turn and talk" to nearby colleagues, and share thoughts with the group.
We conclude that the plaintiffs' fear of punishment was too speculative to support a cognizable injury under the First Amendment. While the presenters warned that unprofessional conduct during the session could result in an attendee receiving no credit, they never said that expressing opposing views or refusing to speak was "unprofessional." The plaintiffs' reliance on Speech First, Inc. v. Cartwright (11th Cir. 2022), is thus misplaced. In Cartwright, the court concluded that a university's policy on "bias-related incidents" objectively chilled speech in part because the team responsible for investigating these "incidents" could refer students for discipline, even if the team could not directly punish students. Critically, the university stated that the team would investigate, monitor, and refer students for discipline because of the students' speech. Here, the school district's presenters did not state or insinuate that an employee's silence or dissenting views would be considered "unprofessional" and a basis to deny credit for attendance at the training.
To the contrary, the evidence shows that when the plaintiffs and others expressed views different from those of the school district, they received pushback from the trainers on the substance, but they were not asked to leave, and they were not called unprofessional. Attendees other than the plaintiffs largely remained silent and exhibited "very low participation." Yet the plaintiffs cite no evidence that anyone was disciplined, denied pay, or refused credit after attending the training. Therefore, the plaintiffs' subjective fear that dissent or silence would be considered "unprofessional" and grounds for denial of credit was too speculative to establish an Article III injury.
The plaintiffs' alleged fear that they would be punished for failing to advocate for the school district's view of "anti-racism" in their personal lives was speculative. They cite the district's definition of "anti-racism" as "the work of actively opposing racism by advocating for changes in political, economic, and social life." They refer to a greeting at the outset of training that referred to "this significant work for our own personal and professional development." But there is no evidence that the presenters purported to dictate what employees could say or do on their own time outside of work. Nor did the trainers communicate that the plaintiffs would be penalized for making particular statements or keeping quiet in their private lives.
Of course, the same conclusions would hold true if the district's training had aligned more closely with the views of the plaintiffs. Suppose the district's "anti-racism" training had emphasized that "[o]ur Constitution is color-blind," Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) (Harlan, J., dissenting), that persons should "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character," Martin Luther King, Jr., I Have a Dream Speech (Aug. 28, 1963), and that "[t]he way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." Parents Involved in Cmty. Schs. v. Seattle Sch. Dist. No. 1 (2007). But suppose that some employees believed that practicing color-blindness perpetuated white supremacy, and that society is stratified in accordance with the "Oppression Matrix." So long as these employees, like [plaintiffs], were not punished or threatened with punishment for remaining silent or expressing disagreement with the district's program, they could not establish an injury from required attendance at a two-hour color-blind anti-racism training session.
The court also held that requiring plaintiffs to answer online questions, indicating the "correct" answer according to the course content, wasn't an unconstitutional speech compulsion:
[I]n this type of training module, an employee's "selection of credited responses on an online multiple-choice question reflects at most a belief about how to identify the question's credited response." … [A]public employer can require employees to demonstrate as part of their official duties that they understand the employer's training materials. See Altman v. Minn. Dep't of Corr. 3 (8th Cir. 2001) ("[A] public employer may decide to train its employees, it may establish the parameters of that training, and it may require employees to participate."); cf. Janus v. AFSCME (2018) ("Of course, if the speech in question is part of an employee's official duties, the employer may insist that the employee deliver any lawful message."). But we are aware of no authority holding that simply requiring a public employee to demonstrate verbally an understanding of the employer's training materials inflicts an injury under the First Amendment, so we decline to construe Henderson's completion of the modules as an injury in fact.
But the court overturned the district court's conclusion "that the plaintiffs' claims were frivolous," which had led to a $300K award of attorney fees to the school district:
A prevailing defendant in an action under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 may recover attorney's fees from a plaintiff only in limited circumstances: when the claims were "frivolous, unreasonable, or groundless," or "the plaintiff continued to litigate after it clearly became so." …
The doctrines of compelled speech, chilled speech, and Article III standing are nuanced and often difficult to apply. The parties cite no apposite authority on how those doctrines apply to training of public employees—especially controversial training of the sort at issue here. Constitutional law in this area is unsettled and developing. The matter of an employee's standing to sue in this context is fairly described as an issue of first impression with room for plausible disagreement, although we ultimately agree with the district court's decision on that issue.
The district court expressed concern that the "political undertones" of the lawsuit "trivialized the important work of the federal judiciary." But plaintiffs long have pressed the limits of the case-or-controversy requirement in disputes relating to issues of the day. It is the judiciary's responsibility to reiterate the properly limited role of the courts in a democratic society, but a plaintiff's unsuccessful effort to push the boundaries does not warrant an award of fees without a stronger showing of frivolity than the defendants presented here….
Defendants are represented by Ransom A. Ellis, III, Tina Gardner Fowler, and Todd A. Johnson (Ellis & Ellis).
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So there WERE five lights - - - - - - - -
And what happens when the White teacher starts chanting "White Power, White Power..."
I well might have responded with a "Seig Heil" when told I was wrong -- or simply walked out. (The nice thing about diagnosed high blood pressure is that you have a medical excuse to walk out of *anything*...)
Come to think of it, I HAVE walked out of a few academic classes like this.
“the work of actively opposing racism by advocating for changes in political, economic, and social life.”
I have a quibble with this. Government should not be instructing people, even government employees, on what to agitate for for government changes.
The rest, though, is standard employer training.
"Okay. The first political change I advocate for is that we don't have to do this training any more."
"Not like that!"
What part of "compelled speech" is this not???
The school district provided in-person and virtual training. At the in-person training, school officials instructed the attendees on how to become "Anti-Racist educators, leaders and staff members." The district defined "anti-racism" as "the work of actively opposing racism by advocating for changes in political, economic, and social life."
I'm not seeing the part where any employee that received this training was telling employees to go and "agitate" for specific "government changes."
But there is no evidence that the presenters purported to dictate what employees could say or do on their own time outside of work. Nor did the trainers communicate that the plaintiffs would be penalized for making particular statements or keeping quiet in their private lives.
A couple of paragraphs later,
Of course, the same conclusions would hold true if the district's training had aligned more closely with the views of the plaintiffs. Suppose the district's "anti-racism" training had emphasized that "[o]ur Constitution is color-blind," Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) (Harlan, J., dissenting), that persons should "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character," Martin Luther King, Jr., I Have a Dream Speech (Aug. 28, 1963), and that "[t]he way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." Parents Involved in Cmty. Schs. v. Seattle Sch. Dist. No. 1 (2007). But suppose that some employees believed that practicing color-blindness perpetuated white supremacy, and that society is stratified in accordance with the "Oppression Matrix." So long as these employees, like [plaintiffs], were not punished or threatened with punishment for remaining silent or expressing disagreement with the district's program, they could not establish an injury from required attendance at a two-hour color-blind anti-racism training session.
As the opinion says, the employees were made to sit through a training that gave opinions on professional matters that they didn't agree with. That's it. They suffered no injury that is worth a lawsuit. After 21 years as an educator, I am in the midst of a career transition. I sat through enough trainings that I thought were a waste of time to know that every veteran educator of any background or political views will do the same. Part of being professional in any training is to not waste everyone else's time arguing with the premises of the training with the presenters.
I would still like to know what would have counted as “unprofessional”, and I am not as apparently sanguine as the court.
Plaintiffs have the burden of proof. They must have evidence, not just suspicion, to get a ruling in their favor.
Of course, but that doesn't address my curiosity
Well, one pretty safe assumption you could make is that it means what it always means.
Why is it a safe assumption? The meaning of "racist" has already been altered: "The presenter responded that black people could be prejudiced, but not racist" - which is fundamentally untrue for the regular definition of "racist", so I don't know whether "unprofessional" retains its common meaning.
Seriously? I'm impressed with your mendacity, that you would actually take the trouble to type that out.
Oh, do you think that black people can't be racist?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization
Irrelevant. My obvious point is that the presenter of the training had a definition of "racist" that did not meet the regular definition but does accord with a modern progressive definition, and hence it is legitimate to question what other relevant terms may have been (conveniently) defined differently. You're also being disingenuous.
And perhaps you'd care to answer my question.
You mistyped "mendacious" as "legitimate."
That's ok, we can all see what's going on.
That you're overgeneralizing from "they used a definition of 'racist' that I don't like" into "words no longer have meanings" in order to project bad faith onto the presenters? Yes, we can all see that.
Do you think that by "this will be a two-hour training," they actually meant "join us afterward for Haitian stewed cat?" Almost definitely!
It's a 'definition' of "racist" that he doesn't like because its, ironically, a racist definition of "racist". I mean, literally, you have to be a genuine racist to be using a definition like that.
And if somebody is willing to use an Orwellian inverted definition for "racist", why wouldn't you suspect they were equally dishonest with other words?
And if somebody is willing to use an Orwellian inverted definition for “racist”, why wouldn’t you suspect they were equally dishonest with other words?
Uh, because most humans prefer to give each other the benefit of the doubt rather than jump immediately to bad faith. This isn't even a real situation, it's dumb online rhetoric. The epitome of mendacity.
It's not "Words no longer have meaning", it's that specific words related to the specific training may have meanings in the programme different from regular usage and it is not unreasonable to wonder whether that is true of "unprofessional" - which requires a subjective judgment from the very person delivering the training, who we known is using another word differently.
Would it have been unprofessional to challenge the trainer on the use of "racist", citing Mugabe's Zimbabwe as an example? Is undermining the premise of the class unprofessional in all cases? Would it have been unprofessional to challenge (politely and respectfully) someone else's truth when you can show it wasn't true? I don't know. None of those would be unprofessional to me but I cannot be sure it wouldn't be unprofessional in the eyes of the instructor.
The epitome of mendacity.
Did you just discover the word "mendacity" today?
And I am not lying. I may have an opinion you regard as unfair, or a curiosity that should have been satisfied on your say-so or by a presumption of good faith. But nowhere am I lying.
Just keeping the discussion on the rails, the rails of mendacity. You’re lying when you say things like
I don’t know whether “unprofessional” retains its common meaning.
Yes you do. You are very familiar with this definition of “racist,” it’s not like it was made up by these presenters. So you have no reason to think that either these presenters or “modern progressives” have come up with new definitions for “unprofessional,” other than that the supposition gives you the opportunity to write a lot of stupid (and mendacious!) online posts attacking proponents of DEI.
This is where you call Dr ML King 2 "Homophobic" and demand the presenter condemn his homophobia.
“I don’t know whether “unprofessional” retains its common meaning.”
Yes you do. You are very familiar with this definition of “racist,” it’s not like it was made up by these presenters. So you have no reason to think that either these presenters or “modern progressives” have come up with new definitions for “unprofessional,”
Don’t tell me what I know and what I don’t know. I am entitled to scepticism concerning use of the term “unprofessional” but like any good sceptic, I am in a state of not knowing. And in fact from my very first post I have consistently indicated that I do not know.
No post of mine suggests otherwise, and any mendacity on display here is entirely yours.
On the other hand I also have the sneaking suspicion that you think that "unprofessional" may well have the context-specific meaning you feel I think it does.
I said: "Would it have been unprofessional to challenge the trainer on the use of “racist”, citing Mugabe’s Zimbabwe as an example? Is undermining the premise of the class unprofessional in all cases? Would it have been unprofessional to challenge (politely and respectfully) someone else’s truth when you can show it wasn’t true?"
Care to answer?
Wow, just digging yourself deeper huh?
Would it have been unprofessional to challenge (politely and respectfully) someone else’s truth
Obviously not, which is clear from both the definition of "unprofessional" and the facts of the case, in which the plaintiffs actually did challenge the presenters and weren't accused of being unprofessional.
But you know all this. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by calling you mendacious rather than simply retarded.
SRG2,
I offered my view of what "unprofessional" means to me, as a teacher below. Feel free to read and comment on that instead of arguing with Randal.
in which the plaintiffs actually did challenge the presenters and weren’t accused of being unprofessional.
But "The presenter responded that Henderson was "confused" and "wrong." Henderson alleges that after this dialogue with the presenter, she stopped speaking out of fear that she would be asked to leave for being unprofessional. "
So obviously Henderson felt that something else she might say would be unprofessional - which prompts the question, what gave her that impression - and we don't know how far along from what she did say would be unprofessional as judged by the trainer.
Certainly, to call someone "confused" in a classroom setting is not particularly professional so this is evidence that the trainer may not themselves be a good judge of what is and what isn't.
You’ve discovered the point I was making above about you not even being part of the situation but rather just an internet commenter.
So obviously Henderson felt that something else she might say would be unprofessional – which prompts the question, what gave her that impression
Of course we do. Few people — teachers least of all — enjoy being contradticted by an authority figure. It’s not unusual to experience fear and anger in that situation. And as Brett and others here have readily demonstrated, angry and fearful people can easily become unprofessional. For better or worse, getting emotional is generally considered unprofessional. So if you’re sitting there stewing, it might be a legitimate fear for you that you’ll burst out with something unprofessional if you continue to engage.
Once again, there’s zero indication that the presenters have any kind of unusual definition for “unprofessional,” and lots of indications that they don’t, including a good-faith expectation of regularity. Oh, the mendacity!
Once again, there’s zero indication that the presenters have any kind of unusual definition for “unprofessional,” and lots of indications that they don’t, including a good-faith expectation of regularity. Oh, the mendacity!</i<
And once again you're lying, you miserable piece of shit.
Nowhere did I state as a fact that the trainer did have a different definition, but you've pretty much asserted that they cannot have done. When did simply not being convinced one way or another equate to mendacity? Oh wait, it never did.,
Don’t tell me what I know and what I don’t know. I have consistently indicated that I do not know.
Ok fine. You're retarded.
In everyday parlance, "racism" and "bigotry" are the same thing. (Well, obviously racism is bigotry focused just on race.) But in modern progressive jargon, "Racism = prejudice plus power." Thus, a black person can be bigoted, but can't be racist because black people don't have power. It's nonsense on stilts, but that's how they use the word.
Precisely so.
Racist! (Unless you're black.)
" But in modern progressive jargon, “Racism = prejudice plus power.”"
Where we're not talking about actual power, or even actual prejudice, both characteristics themselves being assigned on the basis of race.
Exactly. They have to conveniently ignore the countless situations where a black person (or group of black people) does have power over a white person (or group of white people)
I would still like to know what would have counted as “unprofessional”, and I am not as apparently sanguine as the court.
I was a teacher for 21 years until this summer, when I decided it was time for something different. After a lot of trainings of widely varying quality and usefulness to my craft, I can offer my opinion of what any veteran educator should expect being "professional" to mean.
1. Pay attention. (Just like we expect of our students)
a. Don't be on your phone, laptop, or tablet doing something unrelated to the training. (Just like we expect of our students)
b. Don't chit-chat with other teachers when it is inappropriate. (Just like expect of our students)
2. Participate meaningfully in group discussions. (Just like we expect of our students)
3. Speak respectfully to others in the training. (Just like we expect of our students)
4. Ask meaningful questions of the presenters and others in the training. (Just like we expect of our students)
5. Refrain from confrontational or demeaning language or comments. E.g. "That was a stupid question." "Why do we have to learn this garbage?" (Just like we expect of our students)
I think you will get the picture quickly. Acting professionally for a teacher is, at a minimum, acting the way we expect and hope that our students will behave when they disagree or are frustrated with the content of a lesson.
As to these plaintiffs and this case, I find it unlikely that they truly didn't understand what the expectations of them were when told to act "professionally." I think that they understood correctly that it would be unprofessional to continue to argue with the presenter about those topics once the presenter makes themselves clear since that would be argumentative and disrespectfully challenging important premises of the training and/or the presenter. And doing so wastes the time of everyone at the training and just raises everyone's stress levels for no useful purpose.
I've been at trainings when someone started doing something like that (persistently and vocally arguing some point with the presenter or disagreeing with the whole premise of the training). It was deeply uncomfortable, and I could see on most of my fellow teachers' faces that they all just wanted to tell that person to shut it so that they could get it over with and go home. Even the ones that certainly agreed with the arguer clearly felt that way. But no one did tell that person to shut up, because that would have been unprofessional.
" It was deeply uncomfortable, and I could see on most of my fellow teachers’ faces that they all just wanted to tell that person to shut it so that they could get it over with and go home."
You may have just made the plaintiffs' point for them. That's the whole point - they are being bullied into silence. Which is exactly what the presenters want.
I generally agree with your description of professional. But I wonder how far it applies when the presenters behave unprofessionally? Sometimes a little civil unprofessionalism is appropriate.
I agree with your criteria for "professional". I do not assume that all trainers would in practice go along.
Hypothetical.
Trainer:. "all white participants please sit on my left, all black, Asian and Middle-Easterners, sit on my right."
I move to the right.
Trainer: "SRG, why are you on the right? You're obviously white."
Me: "I'm Jewish. Genetic studies put me, and Jews in general as Middle-Eastern, so I was following your instruction,"
Trainer: "You're confused. Jews are white. And aren't oppressed."
Where do I go from there? Am I being unprofessional if I disagree and politely cite evidence?
And am I required to be more professional than the trainer?
wrong reply box.
And am I required to be more professional than the trainer?
I don't see it as a relative thing. You should be professional, period, whether or not other people in the room with you are. In your hypothetical, I would think your goal would be to push back to the extent that you could do so politely without making the situation more volatile. The same could be said for the plaintiffs here. If they remained quiet because they felt that it would just be likely to raise the tension levels regardless of how polite or civil they were in their disagreement, then they had correctly determined that the learning environment of the training was more important than satisfying their own desire to be "right." If they had remained silent because they didn't trust themselves to be polite and civil and not add fuel to a combustible conversation, then they had correctly determined that it would be unprofessional to speak up then as well.
In my opinion, they only have a reasonable cause of action here if their fear was reasonable that they would experience retribution for disagreeing with the presented material, however polite and civil that disagreement.
Adults in a training situation are different from K-12 students in a class. Expecting them to act like K-12 students infantilizes them.
I've long noticed some teachers do tend to lose perspective and speak to peer adults as if they are students. Some are borderline comical after a lifetime.
The meaning of "unprofessional" left vague and attached to punishment at the discretion of the trainer is the compelling part of "compelled speech".
Not sure how is this different from any other forced indoctrination programs through history be they religious, or of the secular cult flavor (nationalist, national socialist, or communist).
Is the moral here for someone who disagrees with this kind of indoctrination to trigger punishment and then sue?
I've never felt 'infantilized' for knowing that I was expected to follow those things I listed. In fact, those expectations of students are the ideal that we know that few students will meet. But we, as adults, should be able to meet all of them or quickly correct ourselves when we don't.
Not sure how is this different from any other forced indoctrination programs through history be they religious, or of the secular cult flavor (nationalist, national socialist, or communist).
If you are not seeing how this anti-racist training is different from religious indoctrination or authoritarian political indoctrination, that is a you problem, not mine. I'm not going to take time to correct your hyperbole.
Is the moral here for someone who disagrees with this kind of indoctrination to trigger punishment and then sue?
No, the moral here is that this was not indoctrination, and there was no punishment to trigger just for disagreeing.
Not sure how is this different from any other forced indoctrination programs
This is pretty silly like Jason said. But just to entertain it for one second, there is an interesting angle to it: what happens after the training. That is, how is it enforced within the workplace?
Enduring an employee training is not a violation of free speech in any situation I can think of. They don’t even have to let you speak. Or, they can require you to role-play situations that you disagree with. As long as they’re not forcing you to sign loyalty oaths or record propaganda videos, they can tell you whatever they want to tell you, and require you to repeat it back to make sure you heard it. That’s just what trainings are. (If you want to call all training “indoctrination” I can’t stop you, but it’s pretty stupid.)
There’s a separate question of what happens after the training. If everyone forgets about it, which is the typical course in my experience, then who even cares? If your boss makes you recite the DEI pledge of allegiance every day, then sue over that. That’s where it becomes like an authoritarian cult. Not the training.
The district defined “anti-racism” as “the work of actively opposing racism by advocating for changes in political, economic, and social life.” The presenters cautioned that actions like practicing color-blindness and remaining silent about racism perpetuated white supremacy.
I’m old enough that within my adult lifetime, the meaning of racist has mutated from (a) treating people differently based on the color of their skin to (b) NOT treating people differently based on the color of their skin. The government as employer can do a lot, so I reserve judgment on whether it can make complying with this tripe a condition of employment. But the remedy is political; there is a deep rot in the civil service and we need to do some serious house-cleaning. Even if you can’t stomach voting for Trump, then fine; at least vote (R) at the local level. This sort of nonsense exclusively comes from the racist (actually racist, not “racist by virtue of being color-blind!”) Democratic party.
Anyone who’s spent any time on this forum (or just listening to the Rs in Congress) knows that conservatives view America as belonging to a special group of privileged beneficiaries. That group can be defined in different ways: some define it ideologically (no socialists!), others religiously (no Muslims!), and some do it by race (no Blacks!). And I’m talking about citizens, not immigrants. It’s very clear, for example, that many of you percieve the justice system as existing primarily to protect True Americans from False Americans. That’s why you can’t understand why so many J6 people are behind bars. You’re not afraid of mobs of white people, so why charge them with crimes, right?
But can you imagine if that had been a Black mob ransacking the Capitol? Or whoa, Muslims? Oh my god, they’d have all been hanged for treason.
I think DEI made a mistake by focusing on “white privilege” and “whiteness,” which can be a distraction and easy to attack (as you have). Race is often part of it but the real problem is in thinking that some Americans are more deserving of America than others, which is a very common sentiment around here.
"Anyone who’s spent any time on this forum (or just listening to the Rs in Congress) knows that conservatives view America as belonging to a special group of privileged beneficiaries."
This is completely false as is your flight of fancy that proceeds from it. As to citizens, the conservative/republican view is to treat everybody equally without regard to accidental demographic characteristics. The liberal project is the exact opposite, as this very training shows. Hence the up is down liberal insistence that treating people equally regardless of their race is racist.
The conservative/republican view is to treat everybody equally without regard to accidental demographic characteristics.
This makes a convenient talking point, but a) it's only even meant to apply to the government, not to private behavior where conservatives fight hard to protect bigotry, and b) even as applied to government it's not something conservatives really believe, as we know from all kinds of conservative policies like anti-LBGT stuff, anti-Muslim stuff, "childless cat ladies," weird anti-Haitian lies, the embrace of discriminatory policing, etc.
The gish gallop is the first resort of the scoundrel. First off, yes, we are talking about state action here. To take these in turn:
"anti-LBGT stuff"
Not sure what you're talking about. It's not part of any conservative platform I'm aware of to be anti-LGBT merely by accidental characteristics. There might be some restrictions on actions, but that's totally different.
"anti-Muslim stuff"
Same here. There is no anti-Muslim stuff as applied to citizens. The so-called Muslim ban was from countries with a high level of terrorists, and those countries happened to be largely Muslim, but regardless that doesn't impact citizens and Muslim was in any event an incidental characteristic.
“childless cat ladies,”
Criticism of childless cat ladies by a mere candidate, or even an actual Vice President, isn't state action. There's no call by anybody to commit any state action against childless cat ladies.
"weird anti-Haitian lies"
One statement by a mere candidate isn't state action. What's more, it was merely a statement that one person who happens to be Haitian may have done something; it has nothing to do with Haitians generally.
" the embrace of discriminatory policing, etc."
There is no evidence of discriminatory policing. Sometimes critics will point to outcomes, but that's a fallacy. E.g., 90% of prisoners are men, but that's because 90% of crimes are committed by men and this is backed up by crime victimization surveys. Nobody thinks that this is because cops have an anti-man agenda, that's just where the crime is. Same thing for youth, crime really is mostly done by the young. And same thing for black skin-- criminals really are disproportionately black. If you're troubled by that, then take it up with the criminals, they decide the demographics of crime when they choose crime as a lifestyle. There's not much the government can do about that. If you arrest criminals equally, then you'll end up with a prison population that's young, black, and male because that's where the crime is.
Of course there isn’t. Blacks are arrested / prosecuted for the same reason non-blacks are — because they’ve committed crimes. What Randal & his ilk really want is “discriminatory policing” — that is, discriminatory in favor of blacks!
It’s like you said above:
You did a wonderful job of proving my point, so thank you for that.
Let’s dig in to some specifics.
It’s not part of any conservative platform I’m aware of to be anti-LGBT merely by accidental characteristics.
This is so laughable that I’m surprised you thought it worth saying. Have you missed all the “don’t say gay,” anti-trans, and anti-drag bills that have been flying around Florida and other red states over the past 5-10 years?
Muslim was in any event an incidental characteristic.
Trump promoted it as a “Muslim ban.” It was not incidental.
There’s no call by anybody to commit any state action against childless cat ladies.
Yes there is, that’s why he brought it up, doofus! He wants to dilute their votes.
it has nothing to do with Haitians generally.
Then why mention their background at all? This is how racism works. You can’t be this stupid.
And same thing for black skin– criminals really are disproportionately black.
This is exactly what I mean by “the embrace of discriminatory policing.” You don’t have any interest in understanding why criminals are disproportionately Black. To you it’s just a fact of the universe: white people are Americans, and Black people are criminals. Simple as that. And you think it absolves conservatives of bigotry? It’s a fundamentally bigoted attitude.
This is so laughable that I’m surprised you thought it worth saying. Have you missed all the “don’t say gay,” anti-trans, and anti-drag bills that have been flying around Florida and other red states over the past 5-10 years?
Those are all restrictions on conduct, not status. You've completely missed the point.
Trump promoted it as a “Muslim ban.” It was not incidental.
What an (at the time) private citizen said doesn't matter; what was actually passed after he entered office does and it did not discriminate on the basis of religion.
Yes there is, that’s why he brought it up, doofus! He wants to dilute their votes.
This is "the child tax credit" is discrimination logic. Benefits to parents are nothing new.
Then why mention their background at all? This is how racism works. You can’t be this stupid.
You're the one being stupid. If I mention the suspect was left-handed, that has nothing to do with left-handed people.
This is exactly what I mean by “the embrace of discriminatory policing.” You don’t have any interest in understanding why criminals are disproportionately Black. To you it’s just a fact of the universe: white people are Americans, and Black people are criminals. Simple as that. And you think it absolves conservatives of bigotry? It’s a fundamentally bigoted attitude.
Woah, woah, woah. You appear to cede on the one hand that criminals really are disproportionately Black. Okay, great, then neutral enforcement of the laws will have a disparate impact. There's not much the government can do about that. If you're troubled by this, take it up with criminals; they're the ones who decide the demographics of crime when they choose crime as a career. This is not bigotry, it's neutrality.
All of your responses suffer from the same illogic: that superficially neutral laws are neutral... even if they were passed with the explicit purpose of discriminating against some group! As long as the law itself doesn't mention the target group, it's not discrimination, according to you.
That's so transparently pro-discrimination that it hardly deserves a response, but I will point out your misinterpretation of my statement about criminals.
You appear to cede on the one hand that criminals really are disproportionately Black.
Criminals are disproportionately Black. But we as a society decide who the criminals are. You make it sound like being a criminal is a Platonic truth, when in reality it's a function of our laws and enforcement policies. When we pass laws criminalizing crack over cocaine, we generate Black criminals. When we over-police Black neighborhoods, we generate Black criminals. When we stop-and-frisk Black people at immensely higher rates than white people, we generate Black criminals. Then, because of all those laws and policies, criminals are disproportionately Black... and people like you use that as a justification to treat Black people with even more suspicion, pass more laws targeting them, and apply more police resources against them.
So let me ask you, why are criminals disproportionately Black in your opinion? I can't imagine you have an answer that's not blatantly racist.
All of your responses suffer from the same illogic: that superficially neutral laws are neutral
Neutral laws are neutral yes. Liberals trying to make them something they're not doesn't change that.
Criminals are disproportionately Black. But we as a society decide who the criminals are. You make it sound like being a criminal is a Platonic truth, when in reality it’s a function of our laws and enforcement policies. (more blather)
Almost all the gap is caused by malum in se rather than the factors you cite. The murder rate is through the chart vs. non-blacks, for instance. Your attempts to make it about enforcement or malum prohibitum crimes is just a diversion. So again: Take it up with the criminals. They decide the demographics of crime when they choose to be criminals.
So let me ask you, why are criminals disproportionately Black in your opinion? I can’t imagine you have an answer that’s not blatantly racist.
I don't think that's a terribly interest or relevant question. Again, criminals are also disproportionately men. I don't need to know why that's the case to be comfortable with neutral laws being applied against them. This of course has nothing to do with men, blacks, or black men that AREN'T criminals. As a man, I welcome the incarceration of criminals who happen to be male. I'd think other demographics would feel the same.
Again, thanks for proving all my points about conservatives.
As the Dred Scott court pointed out, anti-slavery laws discriminate against slaveholders. More directly to the point, the Civil Rights Laws discriminate against people who prefer to work with those of the same race or sex.
As I’ve sometimes noted, I don’t see why people who prefer to work with those of their own sex should be considered less equal than those who prefer to sleep with them. The Justices think ones sex life ought to be more important to ones identity and sense of self than ones vocation and vocational life. But why should the court have power to impose criminal penalties on those who merely have different views about which aspects of their life are most important to them? What makes such differences in values and life priorities of constitutional significance? What gives courts the power to impose their own values and priorities on others?
Indeed, it’s always struck me that there’s a bit of a “people in glass houses” element when people who prefer to sleep with members of the same sex castigate others who merely prefer to work with them. A consistently libertarian position would be one thing. Leaving it up to legislatures to decide matters would also be one thing. But why demand that courts read protection for ones own preferences into the constitution, while demanding that that same constitution demean and ban the next guy’s?
Wow. You just haven't thought that through in the slightest, have you.
As to citizens, the conservative/republican view is to treat everybody equally without regard to accidental demographic characteristics.
Not borne out by observation. E.g., conservative/republican attempts at restricting voting rights are decidedly with regard to demographics. And of course Southern Democrats were conservative, though not of course Republican - until after the 60s.
I think you're hallucinating. I haven't see the Republican voting or election law yet that actually made reference to any demographic; IOW, required only Hispanics to provide ID at the polls. At most they might hinge something non-demographic that vaguely correlates with demographics.
Laws and regulations that literally discriminate on the basis of suspect criteria seem to be an exclusively Democratic obsession.
I haven’t see the Republican voting or election law yet that actually made reference to any demographic
Happy to help. https://www.afb.org/
They don’t necessarily make a direct reference. You would argue that a state law prohibiting the slaughter of cows and sheep using sharp knives isn’t against Jews or Muslims if it didn’t mention them explicitly.
The GOP are generally just marginally subtler than that. You know. accepting CCW IDs (even when expired) while not accepting government (worker or student) IDs – Texas, or closing/restricting DMVs in black-majority counties once a DMV ID was required – Alabama, and resistance to eliminating felon disenfranchisement laws – Florida and elsewhere.
Lots of other examples. But as long as you can pretend to yourself, "it doesn't mention this group explicitly, so it's ok" you will refuse to see it.
You would argue that a state law prohibiting the slaughter of cows and sheep using sharp knives isn’t against Jews or Muslims if it didn’t mention them explicitly.
This might be a silly law, but would not fail for discrimination purposes.
Re: Rest of post, got it, so there's no actual discrimination on the basis of race. Liberals are just desperate to make things about race, because they ALWAYS make things about race, that they'll find discrimination where none exists. Like the "Ghost Hunters" who always manage to conclude that wherever they choose is haunted by ghosts.
but would not fail for discrimination purposes.
It almost certainly would.
so there’s no actual discrimination on the basis of race.
The reason for the concept of disparate impact is precisely to prevent such dishonest arguments being deployed.
The trick is to find some criterion where the disfavoured group is over-represented or under-represented and pass legislation that uses that criterion to discriminate.
The GOP is skilled at finding proxies for demographic selection that avoid mentioning demographics so that they, like you, can attempt to deny actual discrimination – e.g., the accepting of CCW licences but not of government or student IDs. But an intelligent and honest court will recognise the disparate impact.
Of course when it’s as simple as majority-black counties having DMVs shut down or running on restricted hours, while majority-white counties don’t and there are no commercial justifications, it’s easier to prove. (IIRC, Alabama later rescinded the measure).
https://www.justice.gov/crt/fcs/T6Manual7#C
"The reason for the concept of disparate impact is precisely to prevent such dishonest arguments being deployed."
No it's not-- liberals invented it so they could knock down racially neutral laws on a whim. If disparate impact was taken seriously, which it's not, it would void almost every criminal law because men commit many more crimes than women and hence are incarcerated at much higher rates (roughly 9 to 1). And yet, we continue to enforce criminal laws despite the burden falling almost entirely on men and hey, would you look at that, gender is even a suspect class. So "disparate impact" is just a highly selective cudgel that lets liberal judges legislate or leave laws alone on a whim. I'm hoping with time SCOTUS clarifies that.
And I find this particularly rich considering that the Democratic position is to explicitly discriminate based on race, as e.g. with affirmative action. So even if you were right, Democrats are worse because they're outright advocating for what you're pretending the Republicans are doing indirectly.
The trivia of which DMV has which hours opening is a hopeless canard. So long as the determinations were made without reference to racial thresholds or anything like that-- and there's evidence they were-- then no discrimination has occurred.
So tell us, why do Republicans keep passing laws that have the effect of disadvantaging underprivileged groups?
If groups that claim to be underprivileged feel disadvantaged, they might want to look within. Complaining that criminal penalties are too harsh somewhat elides that it's only disadvantaging criminals, for example.
I'm definitely going to use that line on the whiners like the ones in the OP!
If groups that claim to have their speech infringed feel disadvantaged, they might want to look within. Complaining that cancel culture is too harsh somewhat elides that it's only disadvantaging bigots, for example.
Complaining that criminal penalties are too harsh somewhat elides that it’s only disadvantaging criminals, for example.
And your response entirely omits that the complaint is not merely the severity of the penalties but the differential prosecution and punishment, depending on race. Is the person arrested later released with dropped charges, charged with a misdemeanour, or with a felony? For a given crime, are sentences equally long?
If on similar sets of facts, white and black defendants are routinely upcharged with felonies and later receive similar harsh sentences, then there should be no complaint – nor does it matter if one group has a higher crime rate if the average criminal of that group is treated no differently from the average criminal of the other group. But is that lack of discrimination what is found in practice? I’ll save you the trouble of looking it up. No.
Hey, at least there was no racial discrimination wrt the Jan 6 rioters. No doubt that explains why they were all whining about conditions of incarceration, etc.
But is that lack of discrimination what is found in practice? I’ll save you the trouble of looking it up. No.
You don't want anybody looking it up because the answer is yes. Findings of discrimination are incredibly rare and require massaging the statistics. The disparate results are because of the disparate crime rates. At this very blog there was a great post about this a year ago on the unjukeable stat of murder. You may also want to look up the FBI victimization surveys, which show the same disparity. And because most crime is intracial, it's usually a black person reporting that they were victimized by another black person; kind of hard to believe survey respondents are lying about that en masse.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/05/01/homicide-rates-by-race-and-the-medhi-hasan-controversy/?comments=true#comments
The article does not disprove the point I was making. Perhaps you misunderstood one or both.
Let me put it in simpler terms. Two people are accused of killing their victims in basically identical circumstances. One defendant was black, the other, white. and those are the only real relevant differences between them. A prosecutor has a choice of charging them with first or second degree murder, and the judge has sentencing discretion.
1. Will the decision to charge first or second degree be blind to the colour of the defendant?
2. Will the decision to charge first or second degree be blind to the colour of the victim?
3. Will the likelihood of conviction be colour-blind?
4. Will the sentencing be colour-blind either to defendant or victim?
If the US is not a racist country, the answers should be “yes” to all four. Are they?
And there are statistics on at least some of these that are readily available.
"The reason for the concept of disparate impact is precisely to prevent such dishonest arguments being deployed."
The reason for the concept of disparate impact is precisely so that the left can declare that anyone who refuses to racially discriminate IS racially discriminating, because 'discrimination' is now defined as "failing to meet quotas", not "treating people differently".
What do felon disenfeachisement laws have to do with race?
"Congratulations on your arrival in the US! You will find things different here from your home planet. Take a while to familiarize yourself with local customs, traditions and institutions."
In other words, you've got nothing.
Brett, I know you did not arrive in the US today. Stop being disingenuous. You know perfectly well what the answer if you but had the guts to admit it.
Conservative/republicans have different views about how exactly voting rights should work. You can legitimately disagree about, e.g., how freely vote by mail should be available. But even then, show me republican voting rights policy that discriminates on the basis of race. You won't find one. They do sometimes discriminate for partisan purposes in districting, but per SCOTUS and practice when the 14th amendment was passed, they're allowed to do that (and democrats do it too).
But even then, show me republican voting rights policy that discriminates on the basis of race. You won’t find one.
See my response to BB above.
What do felon disenfrachisement laws have to do with race?
You mean the link to the American Foundation for the Blind, that's got nothing at all to do with racial discrimination?
Your example: "You know. accepting CCW IDs (even when expired) while not accepting government (worker or student) IDs"
But CCW IDs are issued without regard to race. The reason that CCW IDs are accepted and some others are not, is because of their stringent requirements for proving who you are.
The link to the AFB was due to your inability to see.
But CCW IDs are issued without regard to race.
Thank you for conceding the point and hence implicitly agreeing with me about Texas’s voter suppression.
“But,” I hear you cry, “I did not agree with you!” Ah, but you used an argument you knew to be fallacious (crediting you with a modicum of brain) – what matters is not whether CCWs are issued without regard to race, it is whether there are racial discrepancies amongst the applicants/holders of CCWs. If proportionally far more whites than blacks hold CCWs then possession of a licence can be used as a proxy for race even if the issuance is colour-blind. When you present such an evidently false argument against mine, that is an implicit concession that you have no good argument.
No, Sarcastr0, I didn't use an argument I knew to be fallacious. I confess I used an argument I knew you'd reject. But I have to do that if I'm ever to disagree with you.
I don't give a bucket of warm spit whether there are racial 'discrepancies". Disparate impact is inevitable in the real world if you don't racially discriminate.
I care if people racially discriminate.
Not at all incidentally, it's actually necessary to racially discriminate in order to avoid disparate impact, because the races typically aren't similarly situated.
The fact that my local grocery charges the same price for ground chuck to everybody has "disparate impact", because blacks are on average poorer than whites. Are you going to claim that charging everybody the same price is racially discriminatory???
The reason CCW permits are typically accepted as ID, and student IDs are not, has nothing to do with race, it's not a proxy for anything. It's because you have to prove who you are to get the CCW permit, and you typically don't have to in order to get a student ID.
I'm not Sarcastr0.
And you're repeating yourself. Further, you know perfectly well because that's what the data tell us, that voter fraud is very rare. But voter suppression is common.
Don’t worry Brett, we’ll get good at finding facially neutral ways of discriminating against you. It's not our preferred style, but you leave us no choice. After all, disparate impact is inevitable in the real world.
So the two sides say:
- Democrats (no ID required to vote) are trying to prevent voter suppression
- Republicans (ID required to vote) are trying to prevent voting fraud.
Who to believe?
Given Biden turned out move votes than Obama, barely campaigning, in a COVID year, would say Republicans may be closer to the truth.
It would probably help the Republicans' case if there were the slightest example of voter fraud beyond the onsey-twosey isolated incidents of like a Republican voting in two states.
There is tons and reams and buttloads of evidence of voter suppression on the other hand.
Given Biden turned out move votes than Obama, barely campaigning, in a COVID year
Or it’s evidence of all the voter suppression going on in 2008 and 2012, including the lack of early and mail-in voting.
Given Biden turned out move votes than Obama, barely campaigning, in a COVID year, would say Republicans may be closer to the truth.
Population increase (fact), large increase in registration towards the end of summer (fact), lots of people eager to vote against Trump (speculation) - if you do the maths, that's enough to account for Biden's victory.
BTW Biden had a 7% to 8% lead in the polls at election time yet his gap over Trump was less than 4%. Evidence of the GOP trying to steal 2020, not the Democrats 🙂
But can you imagine if that had been a Black mob ransacking the Capitol?
IMO the police would have opened on them with live rounds before that point.
If they were black protesters, they could have burned the capitol building to the ground and walked away without any consequences. Then the media would have called it a fiery, but mostly peaceful protest. Commentors would have then opined that riots are the language of the unheard and that's what insurance is for. The mistake the Jan 6 protestors made was assuming they would get the BLM treatment.
Sorry, let me adjust what I said.
IMO the police would have opened on them with live rounds before that point and people like you would have defended the police response instantly and said that the rioters got what they deserved.
Because of skin color?
That is illogical.
Nobody said that discrimination on the basis of skin colour was logical. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist., Though perhaps on your home planet (see above) blues and greens are treated equally, as are entities with four or six eyes.
What is your evidence that the Capitol Police engage in racial discrimination?
It is my opinion that in this situation this is how they would have reacted. FWIW I have three or four black cop friends (from track) who all agreed with me. Still, it's only an opinion - as all hypotheticals are.
So basically just a bald assertion without a rigorous mathematical proof.
Got it.
Let's see how often you live up to your own standards
As Riders in the Sky are wont to say, if the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle.
Why?
"But can you imagine if that had been a Black mob ransacking the Capitol? Or whoa, Muslims? Oh my god, they’d have all been hanged for treason."
Hypothetical, counterfactual hypocrisy is the best hypocrisy.
I agree. Fortunately, I'm not talking about hypocrisy.
You do know there are Black Trump supporters, don't you?
Springfield, Missouri. Not the Springfield accused of eating cats.
"Attendees were paid for their time and received professional-development credit."
I wonder what other options teachers had for professional development, and at whose expense, if they insisted they were not racists and got kicked out.
Yup. This is what’s going on in a Missouri school district. This is not a case from Marin County.
Did they ever figure out in which Springfield the Simpsons live?
Professional development for teachers should be directed at improving childrens education with math, science instead of indoctrination.
You're not a union member, are you?
Haters gonna hate.
And as this lawsuit illustrates, whiners gonna whine.
not guilty 7 mins ago
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Haters gonna hate.
Absolutely true - the democrat party encourages hate with their faux anti-racist racism. The party has nearly fully embraced racism.
It continues to amaze me that those who yap and yammer about the "Democrat Party" think that the use of non-standard English is persuasive.
I suppose their impulse to channel Joe McCarthy and Rush Limbaugh is irresistible.
would you prefer that I call the democrat party the racist party since the democrat party has become the full fledged racist party.
worth noting in your objection to the use of the term democrat party is the name used by the democrat national committee
Yeah, go with calling it ‘the racist party.’ Truly you will own the libs then.
And you may want to look up what the DNC calls itself.
That's a fair cop: They call themselves the "Democratic" national committee, regardless of how undemocratic their actions may be at times.
I'm surprised you didn't spend 1000 words on how it's perfectly legal for a government to force its.employees to engage in political activism of its choosing.
Maybe since that's not really possible outside of the 3 morons above, you went with the garbage you went with.
The word "force," when used as an epithet, has been drained of all meaning. The employees here were not forced to do anything, and undergoing training of the employer's choosing is not "political activism." The lawsuit foundered on the shoals of the injury in fact requirement.
If you want to learn about force, JHBHBE, try using a three inch butt plug for its intended purpose.
As George Orwell said, when there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns, as it were, instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink. While Orwell said that as criticism, the Alliance Defending Fanatics takes it as marching orders.
I love this new spicy gutter not guilty.
It's such a better picture than the stuffy formal idiot activist pedant and liar "legal professional". It makes me nearly gag putting that phrase adjacent to you.
Why does three work better than two and a half or three and a half?
The dimension refers to diameter, not length. I have represented several adult bookstores in my day, and I don't recall any of them selling two and a half or three and a half inch toys.
But that was quite some time ago. I have no idea what is currently on the market.
Doublethink is double-plus good!!!!
The course sounds like awful use of two hours and likely to accomplish the opposite of its apparent goal of increasing support for ‘equity.’ But, the case seems correctly decided. No one was punished for disagreeing, which suggests the command to “be professional” meant ‘disagree politely’, not ‘don’t disagree’. The court also seems right to conclude that requiring “correct” answers to questions was not requiring attendees to adopt a particular view because they were only asked to state which choice was “correct” based the course material.
The court also seems right to conclude that requiring “correct” answers to questions was not requiring attendees to adopt a particular view because they were only asked to state which choice was “correct” based the course material.
I'm at least somewhat skeptical the government can do that, which the judiciary would have no trouble with if this was racist in the opposite direction. How successful do you think the government would be if they required course attendees to repeat the "correct" answer that black people are genetically loud, inferior and prone to crime?
If they couldn’t, then government couldn’t test anybody, and hence couldn’t use test scores as a basis for admissions or credentials.
You have a right to believe 2+2 = 5. But you don’t have a right to give that as the answer to your math test. You have to say 2+2=4, the answer the teacher wants to hear, whether or not you think it’s really true.
This is no dofferent. The fact that the subject matter is more controversial doesn’t matter so far as the First Amendment is concerned.
Right. Or, conversely, the instructor can demand you answer 2+2 = 5 if that is what the course teaches.
You can imagine a slightly different set of circumstances where you get a different result, though. Instead of multiple choice questions, let’s say the course concluded with asking attendees to write a brief essay explaining how institutional racism and our nation’s ongoing support for white supremacy manifested in their lives using the principles articulated in the course. That, to me, seems much more likely to violate the prohibition on compelled speech even though it’s potentially subject to the same defense as the multiple choice questions - that “it’s just testing how well they understood the material, not whether they agree with it.”
Yup. That's what makes the theory that public university professors are protected by the first amendment while speaking in their official capacity so perverse.
Teachers supposedly have a right to teach that 2 + 2 = 5, and no one can correct them, but students, who are not government officials and are fully protected by the first amendment, have no corresponding right to say, no, 2 + 2 = 4. The government can require them to regurgitate that 2 + 2 = 5.
"The government can require them to regurgitate that 2 + 2 = 5"
Wait. What does 'can require' mean? If you mean "an engineering student can be imprisoned if he uses a value of pi=4 while calculating the answer to a question on bolt stress in an exam", then I fervently agree that's wrong.
If you mean "an engineering student who calculates bolt stress wrong because his religion insists pi=4 has to be passed, graduated, hired by the Highway Dept., and licensed to approve bridge designs", that's a bus I'm not getting on.
"Wait. What does ‘can require’ mean?"
It means, can condition government benefits on.
So an Engineering I professor can insist that his students say that pi = 4, and can prevent students who disagree from taking Engineering II.
There's a lot of tension between the concept of public education and the idea that, "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
One way to alleviate that tension is to have education be publicly funded, put privately controlled.
As to the opposite direction hypothetical, if this was a history test on the views of, say, the short-lived Dixiecrat Party of 1948, then that would indeed be the correct answer.
As the court rightly notes, tests are always implicitly on the views of someone, not on absolute truth. Being able to understand and discuss views one disagrees with has always been part of being educated. Having to learn them and show one has learned them has never been thought to violate the First Amendment in an education context.
The potential problems with a racist course would fall under Equal Protection, not the First Amendment.
The course’s claims that white people universally view the world through a lens of privilege and that white people are uniquely capable of racism while other groups are not seem to me to implicate equal protection concerns. But it doesn’t look like that argument was before the court.
There was a case a decade or more back, where a creationist argued he shouldn't be dinged for giving the wrong answer on a (state U) biology test. The court disagreed.
Honestly, I'd have said, you are free to disagree with it and believe something else, but if you want to pass, you will be able to regurgitate details of evolution.
FWIW, my wife was a HS bio teacher, and she was uber careful to e.g. phrase test questions as 'The theory of natural selection says X' or 'according to the theory of natural selection, how does antibiotic resistance arise', etc, etc. Students could believe that antibiotic resistance was divine punishment for sin or whatever; the test just required accurately stating what the theory (right or wrong!) said.
Students were free to believe in their heart of hearts that the earth was created in 4004 BC, but they had to demonstrate understanding of the (mainstream) differing opinions.
This was a lot easier than getting in a fight with the one or so kid a year whose parents had primed them to argue about it.
"No one was punished for disagreeing, "
No one was punished for disagreeing so long as they eventually caved, and professed agreement. Would they have been punished if they'd held their ground? Apparently, since the test evidently was one of those ones you couldn't complete without eventually giving the 'right' answer.
Anyone so petty and whiney as to intentionally fail a multiple choice quiz is unprofessional.
Yeah, and I'm sure you're still confused about why Winston kept saying he saw four fingers, too. If the Party says five fingers, you see five fingers, what's complicated about that?
Well, eventually Winston Smith got his act together and stopped being an unprofessional whiner.
Yeah, basically. You're allowed to be an unprofessional asshole. You just aren't allowed to be an employed unprofessional asshole.
If you think your employer's trainings are so bad that you feel the need to performatively reject them, you've got bigger problems than just being compelled to fill in bubble C on a quiz. Quit that job and find an employer whose bigotry is more compatible with your own.
I remember you singing a different tune when the state defined "being an unprofessional asshole" as telling Kindergarteners that you were gay.
Huh? Was there a quiz involved where the teacher had to answer "no" to "Should you volunteer to your Kindergarteners that you're gay?"
I would say exactly the same thing to that person: if you can't suck it up and fill in the "no" circle, quit and find another employer whose bigotry (or lack thereof) is more compatible with your own.
Whose lawyers should Professor Volokh be congratulating? Although the 8th Circuit upheld the District Court on the merits, it reversed the finding of frivolousness and the sanctions.
This means that, on net, plaintiffs and their lawyers are better off after the appeal than before, suggestimg the appeal was a net win. They are now free to make the same argument in another circuit and hope for more favorable judges and better luck. A finding of frivolousness would significantly chill any such attempt.
For sure getting those sanctions reversed is a good day for the lawyers even if it doesn’t help their clients.
The district court’s pontificating about “political undertones” as well as the amount of sanctions ($300K is a LOT for a case that wasn’t tried) likely tipped the appellate court that plaintiff’s counsel were being punished for their political stance. As the appellate court noted, litigants often push aggressive arguments in service of political goals and it’s not necessarily wrong or frivolous to do so.
"They are now free to make the same argument in another circuit and hope for more favorable judges and better luck. A finding of frivolousness would significantly chill any such attempt."
If these shysters peddle this kind of nonsense in another court, the instant opinion increases the likelihood of future sanctions being imposed.
I tend to agree with the 8th Circuit here. It’s far from the dumbest federal legal case that’s been filed. Politically motivated cases come a dime a dozen these days; these plaintiffs are hardly unique in that respect. It’s a case of first impression. I agree the plaintiffs lose here, and solidly. But they aren’t criminals for filing this case, however strongly you or the District Judge disagree with their views.
I do agree that if they or similar plaintiffs try to file elsewhere, this case will be a strike against them that will increase the likelihood of a frivolousness finding.
“When you witness racism in Fall District Wide Equity Training should you: (a) sue the race exploiting DEI hacks (b) tell them to shove their training somewhere unmentionable or (c) all of the above?”
This sort of training is nonsense.
"When you witness racism and xenophobia in the classroom, how should you respond?" Employees could select one of two options: (1) "Address the situation in private after it has passed"; or (2) "Address the situation the moment you realize it is happening."
There is no correct answer to this. It entirely depends on what was witnessed, the perpetrator, and the employee's personality.
WRONG!!!
EHHHHHHHHHT!!! WRONG! IMMEDIATE PUBLIC SHAMING is the only correct answer.
Training as a way to meet DEI push is dumb to begin with; this nonsense is actively counterproductive.
Yup. We can make our government function better by advocating that this nonsense be removed from public workplaces.
Trump did exactly that, signing as EO keeping this nonsense out of federal workplaces, but unfortunately Biden reversed it.
Perhaps the next president, whoever he or she is, will reinstate it.
But it any event, it's good to know that there are some issues that you agree with Trump over Biden on.
The problem is partisan EOs, drafted by hostile parties with no coordination, tend to be vastly overinclusive and sweep a bunch of other stuff into their ambit.
We had a question out about one-on-one coaching and conflict resolution about racial issues. Given the harshness of the penalties, this was load-bearing guidance. Not that we were expecting to get anything. It was all spite and performance.
This is what Trump gets you. We agree, but middle ground or actual change management is not going to happen. So it's all drama and general degradation of our institutions.
Yup. It's much better when the institutions behave accountably and avoid the need for that sort of thing.
Look what you made me is always ugly logic and the right reaches for it again and again.
There is never a need for spite based unproductive executive orders.
That isn't an argument. If public institutions aren't being run the way the public wants, the public is going to intervene somehow.
If you don't want the executive orders, convince your guys to keep the crazy out of the workplace some other way.
'Don't worry this is legal' is the thing that isn't an argument. Plenty of stupid things are legal.
If a method causes more chaos than accomplishing it's goal, it's bad even if you really like the goal.
Though honestly at this late date it's clear you and Trump's goal was never to reform anything. The chaos is the point.
"This sort of training is nonsense."
Yup. What's worse it that it's being taught to our teachers and presumably to our children.
If you think it's nonsense, you may want to act politically to make sure it stops being taught in our public institutions.
There may be more policy points than this that I agree with Trump or other Republicans about (can't think of any offhand).
But it doesn't matter.
Trump, IMO, is morally and ethically unfit to be POTUS. He is also utterly ignorant of policy issues, probably not very bright, completely dishonest, at least a borderline racist a would-be autocrat, and a man who sees the Presidency purely as a vehicle for personal profit.
Oh. He's also a repeat lawbreaker and, despite his claims, a poor negotiator, and an all-round idiot.
So if he finds the proverbial acorn on which he and I agree, it doesn't matter.
He also seems to
My patented solution: shut down public schools.
If a private school wants to subject its teachers to such "equity training," more power to them. (I suspect, once word gets around, not too many sane teachers would want to work there; not too many sane parents would want their kids taught by teachers who've internalized such "equity training.")
Imagine being so many Cutty Sarks deep at work that you can’t help mouthing off about Kyle friggin Rittenhouse during work training. And then suing! You people truly get the heroes you deserve.
Imagine being so many Cutty Sarks deep at work that you can’t help requiring your employees to attend training that involves discussing Kyle friggin Rittenhouse!