The Volokh Conspiracy
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Rahimi On Remand
"We read the Court's analysis in Rahimi to have modified Bruen in at least one relevant respect."
On September 12, the Fifth Circuit decided United States. v. Rahimi on remand from the Supreme Court. All-too-often, people think a Supreme Court decision is the end of the matter. But in reality, the lower court has to actually enter a judgment to carry the Supreme Court's ruling into effect.
Here is how the per curiam panel opinion describes Rahimi:
The Supreme Court, clarifying its Bruen test, reversed our judgment and held that § 922(g)(8) is facially constitutional. United States v. Rahimi, 602 U.S. ----, 144 S. Ct. 1889 (2024).
I agree. The Supreme Court did not faithfully apply Bruen. It changed the test! For all of the outrage about the Fifth Circuit's reversal rate, a lower court cannot be faulted for faithfully following precedent. Ditto for when the government changes its position on appeal, thus radically altering the dispute, which happened in the mifepristone cases.
The panel identified at least one important regard in which the Court "modified" the Bruen test:
We read the Court's analysis in Rahimi to have modified Bruen in at least one relevant respect. In Bruen, the Court instructed that surety laws provided no historical analogue for banning a person from having a gun, because surety laws only required "certain individuals to post bond before carrying weapons in public." 597 U.S. at 55. "These laws were not bans on public carry." Id.; see also id. at 59 (same). So any "reliance on [surety laws] [was] misplaced." Id. at 55. In Rahimi, the Court announced that surety laws "confirm" that covered individuals "may be disarmed." 602 U.S. at ----, 144 S. Ct. at 1901.
The panel is exactly right. In Bruen, Justice Thomas rejected the relevance of the surety laws. But in Rahimi, Chief Justice Roberts glommed together the surety laws (ex ante restriction) with felon disenfranchisement laws (ex post restriction) to support the disqualification for those subject to domestic violence restraining orders, but who were not convicted.
Judge Ho wrote a concurrence that makes this point explicit.
First, he explains that it is not the role of the lower courts to anticipate where the Supreme Court is likely headed:
The Supreme Court can adjust or amend its own precedents at its discretion. Inferior courts have no such luxury. The Supreme Court has repeatedly instructed us to follow its precedents, whether we agree with them or not—and whether we expect the Court itself to follow them or not. See, e.g., Rodriguez de Quijas v. Shearson/Am. Exp., 490 U.S. 477, 484 (1989); Agostini v. Felton, 521 U.S. 203, 237 (1997); State Oil Co. v. Khan, 522 U.S. 3, 20 (1997); United States v. Hatter, 532 U.S. 557, 567 (2001).
Second, as we all know, only the Supreme Court can modify its own precedents. Indeed, the Fifth Circuit halted the Mississippi abortion law that was upheld in Dobbs:
So we'd be defying the Court's express command if we decided cases based on anticipated changes to its precedents. It's up to the Court to modify or overrule its own precedents, as it alone deems appropriate—and to reverse us when it does. See, e.g., Jackson Women's Health Org. v. Dobbs, 597 U.S. 215 (2022), rev'g 945 F.3d 265 (5th Cir. 2019).
Third, Judge Ho explains that the Fifth Circuit in Rahimi faithfully followed Bruen.
That's exactly what happened here. We faithfully applied the Court's decision in N.Y. State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n, Inc. v. Bruen, 597 U.S. 1 (2022). See United States v. Rahimi, 61 F.4th 443 (5th Cir. 2023). No member of our court disagreed with our interpretation or application of Bruen. As one of our distinguished colleagues put it, our job is not to relitigate Bruen, but to "operat[e] in good faith" and "faithfully implement Bruen." United States v. Daniels, 77 F.4th 337, 357–58 (5th Cir. 2023) (Higginson, J., concurring).
But fourth, the SCOTUS majority modified Bruen:
The Court has now modified Bruen—as our decision today explains. See United States v. Rahimi, 602 U.S. _ (2024), rev'g 61 F.4th 443; ante, at 2 n.1.
Judge Ho also highlights a point I raised on the blog: why must a criminal defendant, seeking to dismiss an indictment, bring a facial challenge to the statute? This framework, I observed, seems inconsistent with the standard in United States v. Lopez:
I write separately to note a second alteration to Court precedent. In the past, the Court has held unconstitutional laws that punish people who don't belong in federal prison—even if the defendant himself does. See, e.g., United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995); see also United States v. Kersee, 86 F.4th 1095, 1101–02 & n.2 (5th Cir. 2023) (Ho, J., concurring). That principle readily applies here—victims of domestic violence don't belong in prison. . . .
Well, consider what the Court did in Lopez. Like Rahimi, Lopez is a dangerous person. Lopez was paid to bring a gun to school "so that he . . . could deliver it after school to 'Jason,' who planned to use it in a 'gang war.'" United States v. Lopez, 2 F.3d 1342, 1345 (5th Cir. 1993). But the Court nevertheless decided Lopez's Commerce Clause challenge—and held the Gun-Free School Zones Act unconstitutional—because it sweeps in those who don't belong in a federal prison. See 514 U.S. at 562 ("§ 922(q) has no express jurisdictional element which might limit its reach to a discrete set of firearm possessions that additionally have an explicit connection with or effect on interstate commerce.").
The same logic applies here.
And it is no answer to say that the Second Amendment requires a different standard than the Commerce Clause or the First Amendment.
As noted, Lopez involved a claim under the Commerce Clause, not the Second Amendment. But the Court has repeatedly instructed that "[t]he constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not 'a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.'" Bruen, 597 U.S. at 70 (quoting McDonald v. City of Chicago, 561 U.S. 742, 780 (2010) (plurality opinion)). So our court dutifully decided Rahimi's claim.
Judge Ho concludes that the Court may have foreclosed Rahimi from raising this claim, but others may raise it in a future proceeding:
The Supreme Court has now decided Rahimi. The decision does not mention Lopez, and it does not allow Rahimi to litigate the sincere concerns expressed by various amici curiae, judges, scholars, and practitioners. It does acknowledge the "potential faults" with § 922(g)(8). 602 U.S. at _ n.2. But it concludes that any defects must be addressed in a future proceeding.
Rahimi is an unsatisfying decision that quietly modified a two-year old precedent. And everyone who joined that decision knows it. Justices Barrett and Kavanaugh were never fully happy with Bruen in the first place. Had it not been for the chaos caused by the Dobbs leak, I think the Thomas majority might have fractured. And Justice Gorsuch cannot hide behind the facial analysis. Only Justice Thomas was willing to stand up for the Second Amendment, even when it allowed a dangerous person like Mr. Rahimi to have a firearm.
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Mr. Rahimi is hardly a poster child for “a well-regulated militia”, given his high-larious antics like aggravated assault, harassing his girlfriend, and shooting at witnesses.
If the Second Amendment’s original intention was to protect that, the Second Amendment is an ass. And so is Harlan Thomas.
" . . If the Second Amendment’s original intention was to protect ... antics like aggravated assault, harassing his girlfriend, and shooting at witnesses"
Rest easy, Citizen, it wasn't. But it includes an assumption that a person who commits aggravated assault, beats his girlfriends, and shoots at witnesses gets tried and convicted of those crimes, which would moot the point of Rahimi being prosecuted for having a firearm while under a civil order.
Where were the prosecutors on those charges? Still waiting for court dates? Catch and release? Diversion?
Good question.
I've been asking since before his conviction was overturned in the Circuit.
The charge in this case was based on a gun he possessed while being arrested on the state offenses. The last time I checked, those cases were still pending.
Yes, the cases were still pending, which means he still retained the presumption of innocence.
Well, kiss the presumption of innocence goodbye now. The Court repudiated it.
No one disputes that, while the charges were pending (and while still presumed innocent), Rahimi could have been not only disarmed but kept in a cage. Why is it more offensive to just disarm him?
That’s a good question.
First, if they could have caged him, and he was such an obvious danger, why didn’t they? How does the answer to that not apply to stripping him of a constitutional right other than his ability to travel about?
Second, if they caged him, it would ACTUALLY deal with the danger he was alleged to pose to those about him. Because he would actually be caged, you know. Whereas simply telling him to be disarmed obviously did nothing at all to deal with the alleged danger, because it didn’t actually disarm him! Demonstrably so!
So, he got stripped of his right to no purpose. Why wouldn’t we be offended by stripping somebody of a right to no purpose? The people subject to these sorts of orders who aren't a threat comply, the people subject to them who are a threat violate the orders. The burden automatically falls only on the innocent.
The fact that they’ll just take away somebody’s right even though it actually accomplishes nothing demonstrates that the goal isn’t accomplishing the supposed purpose, but instead just taking the right away.
Maybe, maybe not. I think not, but it doesn't matter, because this isn't a constitutional argument.
Keeping him in a cage would require an individualized and explicit decision by the court that he needed to be kept in a cage. Under current law, disarmament does not, there is zero due process for disarmament over civil retraining orders.
“Why is it more offensive to just disarm him?”
Because if he’s disarmed but not confined, he can arm himself again and continue to offend.
If he’s disarmed but not confined, the State can more easily justify disarming other people with less serious offenses, or no offenses at all.
Are they still pending? Where do you check that?
The Tarrant County district court has case information online. Looks like his next hearing is on the 25th.
The Second amendment did NOT protect that from being charged with the crimes he was accused of, and convicted in a criminal trial.
Rahimi didn't just modify Bruen. It blew a hole in the presumption of innocence and the right to a trial that you could drive a truck through. Which other constitutional rights can you be stripped of because the government accuses you, but doesn't bother trying to convict you, of a crime?
The condition that triggers the prohibition doesn’t involves the government accusing anyone of anything.
Did you actually think that through? He didn't have to be accused of anything in order to get the court to impose the prohibition? Of course he had to be accused of something. He just didn't have to be charged or convicted.
What did the government accuse him of?
Sheesh. Let's go to the first words of Rahimi:
"A federal statute prohibits an individual subject to a domestic violence restraining order from possessing a firearm if that order includes a finding that he “represents a credible threat to the physical safety of [an] intimate partner,” or a child of the partner or individual. "
It goes on to say,
"In December 2019, Rahimi met his girlfriend, C. M., for lunch in a parking lot. C. M. is also the mother of Rahimi’s young child, A. R. During the meal, Rahimi and C. M. began arguing, and Rahimi became enraged. Brief for United States 2. C. M. attempted to leave, but Rahimi grabbed her by the wrist, dragged her back to his car, and shoved her in, causing her to strike her head against the dashboard."
Trivially, he was accused of the conduct in the "finding" that led to the federal law applying to him.
Pretty much everything the government can do to someone, criminal law wise, starts with accusing them. This was followed by an order with a finding, which is more than just accusing. But an example of another constitutional right that can be denied based on an accusation would be the right to travel, since they can hold you in jail if you're arrested, which requires only probable cause for the accusation.
"This was followed by an order with a finding, which is more than just accusing."
But falls far, far short of convicting.
Shifting goalpost alert! Everyone move out of the way!
Unvarying location for goal posts alert!
Haven't move the goalposts so much as an inch. My unvarying position is that, if you want to deprive somebody of a constitutional right, you can damned well charge them with a felony, hold a trial, and convict them.
Otherwise bugger off.
And I pointed out a constitutional right that the government can deprive you of solely on an accusation (albeit a credible one). Freedom of association would be another one, based on a restraining order, which requires less than conviction.
I see that, for the 2nd amendment and insurrection and perhaps other constitutional rights, you are fixated on the idea of conviction being necessary, but it just looks like what you want to be true for things you're invested in.
Where in that quote does it say the government accused anyone of doing anything?
You know what? I answered that immediately below the quote, so you can go pound sand at this point.
But what you're saying doesn't make any sense. If a judge's factual findings at an adversarial hearing are an "accusation", how are a jury's factual findings after a trial any less of one?
Is the judge actually permitted to 'find" that somebody did something nobody is saying they did, aka "accusing" them of having done? Just sua sponte, "Even though nobody accused you of domestic violence, I'm finding you guilty of it, just on my own initiative, since I've got some time to kill."? No, they aren't. Somebody has to accuse the defendant before the judge gets a chance to find them guilty.
But, to answer a silly question, a jury's conclusion after a trial, or for that matter a judge's conclusion after an agreed to bench trial, are constitutionally appropriate ways of finding that somebody is guilty of conduct which is, after all, a felony.
A judge just 'finding' somebody did something? Not an appropriate way to determine that they are guilty.
I’m not disputing that someone (actually, lots of someones!) accused him of committing crimes. But those people weren’t part of the government. (Well, people who were part of the government also accused him of committing crimes, which is how he got arrested and caught with a gun in the first place. But those governmental accusations aren’t what triggered the prohibition.)
Yeah, actually they were. If somebody accuses you of 'domestic violence' and the government blows it off, this law doesn't kick in. It requires the government agreeing that it happened; It requires a judicial finding that you
“represents a credible threat to the physical safety of [an] intimate partner,” or a child of the partner or individual. ”
I'm not entirely clear why you're so determined to deny that the government accused him of crimes, and deprived him of a civil right on the basis of the accusation, rather than a conviction.
Um, not necessarily.
Because you're forgetting that Rahimi didn't raise the specific issue you're talking about.
I know the gun grabbers don't want any due process to take away guns. That particular issue has yet to reach the Supreme Court, because Rahimi waived his opportunity. Why most people agreed this was an imperfect case.
Unfortunately what has to happen (no prior constitutional shield) is that some person (AKA man) will have to have his guns confiscated in a domestic dispute without due process, and that case work its way up to SCOTUS.
I suspect you and many others disagree with me, but I think red flag laws and such are a perfectly valid application of the surety laws precedent, as long as they contain actual (not sham) due process. That seems aligned with the historic "dangerous person" standard. Frankly, I doubt very much such persons had much due process in being disarmed back in the day. Today you (should) get a higher due process standard as baseline. The complication of course is that nobody back then was trying for bad faith general disarmament (except for doing it to free blacks obviously), so it wasn't a rights infringement problem. Not controversial.
You're right to free movement (not be imprisoned) is infringed when you are charged with a crime, with an evidentiary threshold and due process. Something similar should be required here. Like I said, the due process for being disarmed has to be real and not a sham standard.
We disagree because the surety laws did NOT deprive you of possession. They just told you you couldn't go out carrying them. If you left them at home, you didn't need to post any surety.
So surety laws didn't disarm people! You're conflating being told that you can't take your guns out of the house, with being told you can't OWN them.
I was using surety laws as a general category. So you don’t think there is historical precedent exists for disarming dangerous individuals?
There is nothing inherently wrong with depriving dangerous individuals of firearms, just like there is nothing wrong with confining the mentally ill to appropriate institutions, both for their protection and the general public’s. You can be deprived of “life, liberty, property” as long as you are given due process. No, this does not mean a criminal conviction, just like granting bail does not infringe on your rights.
I keep having to jump ahead (to anticipate the protest) that the due process cannot be a sham proceeding. I would say (not sure whether the justices will) that such a process needs to include a possible end date/criteria. No open-ended preliminary hearing that doesn't have a resolution outcome and/or appeal. It needs protection against the disgruntled wife in a divorce dispute using such an accusation as leverage.
"So you don’t think there is historical precedent exists for disarming dangerous individuals?"
Sure: After they were convicted of a crime, is the point.
Thomas went over this in his dissent, remember: The majority, just like you, conflated surety laws, which only required a bond for carrying outside your house, with the penalty of losing ownership, which resulted from a criminal conviction.
"Which other constitutional rights can you be stripped of because the government accuses you, but doesn’t bother trying to convict you, of a crime?"
Approximately 536,000 people sitting in US jails in pretrial detention come to mind.
Yes, and I think this is a serious problem that we as a society are just blowing off.
In the case of the detained who are eventually convicted, the pre-trial detention can be considered to be in the nature of an advance payment of the penalties imposed as a result of conviction. So, retroactively validated.
But in the case of the detained who are NOT eventually convicted, they have suffered punishment without a conviction, and been wronged!
It's my personal belief that the legal system ought to be required to make people whole after failed prosecutions. To compensate them for the time they spend detained, and any other incidental costs and inconveniences.
After all, those ARE costs of having a legal system, and as such ought to be paid by the general population benefiting from having a legal system, not designated fall guys. The same moral principle as requiring compensation for takings.
1) A well regulated militia is not relevant to the Rahimi case, not even remotely related.
2) There is not a Harlan Thomas, at least not in relation to this case.
other than that, a great post
"Only Justice Thomas was willing to stand up for the Second Amendment, even when it allowed a dangerous person like Mr. Rahimi to have a firearm."
I'm shocked. Here's a surprisingly well-written article on the Volokh Conspiracy. Well, there was an earthquake today where I live, and maybe Hell will freeze over next time.
The issue isn't whether the Second Amendment allows (or doesn't) a dangerous person to have a firearm. It's the legal threshold and process for taking away a dangerous person's firearm. Which has little to do with the Second Amendment itself, beyond the fact that it recognizes a fundamental right, and that such rights cannot be casually infringed upon.
SCOTUS has made a mess of the jurisprudence in this area. Regardless of the platitudes in the opinions, everyone but Justice Thomas seems that they will uphold gun rights to the degree that they personally believe that they are desirable.
If desirable: no history or tradition allows the law.
If not desirable: this arcane old law is close enough–a twin is not needed.
Yes, exactly: In Bruen the Court's majority signed onto a clear and defensible standard. Then the moment a case came along where they didn't like where that standard took them, they abandoned it, while lying about still following it.
And in so doing licensed anti-gun lower courts to do the exact same thing, essentially gutting Bruen.
To be clear, what the anti-gun lower courts can now do, is that when they find any historical law that imposed any sort of restriction on carrying, they can join that with the prohibitions on ownership that only attached after a felony conviction, and justify prohibiting ownership under the same circumstances.
Because that's exactly what the Court did in Rahimi: They took surety laws, which on the basis of judicial 'findings' merely required you to put up a bond in order to carry, but in no way whatsoever prohibited mere possession, and they took laws that prohibited possession after a felony conviction, and mashed them together, to permit a prohibition on possession after a judicial 'finding'.
So, now, any lower court that can find a law that restricts where you can carry, or what you can do with a gun, can use that to justify stripping the right to keep and bear arms from somebody entirely.
This case is inevitably going to come back to the Court, over and over, until they articulate a standard that can actually be applied and not license wholesale violation of the 2nd amendment. Or, I suppose, decide to give up and just spike the 2nd amendment.
The cynical part of Brett's comment is that we all know that if the court had upheld a pure surety law, he would have been ranting that that was an unconstitutional infringement of the 2A, too.
A much lesser infringement, though, and one with precedent in the relevant time period.
Shouldn't a surety law be viewed like a poll tax? Not as evidence that restrictions are generally permissible, but rather that historically, restrictions have been place on disfavored classes (poor people, blacks etc.)
So I don't really see why the existence of surety laws in this context really helps with a "narrow" reading of the 2A.
Suppose Rahimi had beaten his girlfriend severely with his fists. No gun in the facts but he almost killed her.
Aren't the "going armed" laws the Court used now inapplicable? If so, then Rahimi would win. Should the holding be "credible threat to the safety of another" with a weapon?
I see no historical laws which disarmed people after a felony conviction. If the idea was that someone could have been imprisoned and therefore by implication temporarily lost his arms during the term of imprisonment, then that makes for an interesting jurisprudence not just for guns, but for everything.
It seems like nearly any restriction on speech, religion, press, search and seizure, and novel punishments could be enacted as a consequence of a civil finding so long as the restriction was less severe or less onerous than imprisonment. This "greater includes the lesser" is a fallacy.
I don't mean to be rude, but have you read Rahimi? That is most emphatically not its idea.
"Finally, the penalty—another relevant aspect of the burden—also fits within the regulatory tradition. The going armed laws provided for imprisonment, 4 Blackstone 149, and if imprisonment was permissible to respond to the use of guns to threaten the physical safety of others, then the lesser restriction of temporary disarmament that Section 922(g)(8) imposes is also permissible."
There's nothing clear about the standard in Bruen because the Bruen majority lied about the "history and tradition" of concealed carry to arrive at their conclusion.
Rahimi shows the standard was always bullshit. Ho is right the Fifth Circuit faithfully followed the standard. SCOTUS just said "we didn't mean it."
If you were right in your first paragraph, the Fifth Circuit couldn't have faithfully followed the standard. You got it right in the 2nd: The standard was "bullshit" if by that you mean that they didn't really mean it. Because Rahimi clearly shows that they didn't.
But it was perfectly capable of being implemented if you were willing to accept the results.
But it was perfectly capable of being implemented if you were willing to accept the results.
The Bruen standard followed on the Heller standard of lying about history in order to find gun laws unconstitutional.
All Rahimi did is to point out that it’s also fair game to lie about history in order to find gun laws constitutional, if that’s the outcome you want.
Bruen and Heller decisions weren't the ones lying about history.
That would be the gun grabbers. Just like same-sex marriage, there was little case history because everybody agreed there was a right to keep and bear arms. The contours we have, about dangerous persons and surety laws, nibbled around those edges. You guys want to make it sound like restrictions were the norm. They were most certainly not. Because everybody understood there was a fundamental protected right involved, which faced few bad faith infringement challenges, unlike today.
Scalia's historical lies in Heller are well-documented.
Do you consider it a lie when your side ruled that the Due Process Clause, written in the 1860s, protected the right to penetrate another man and release diseased fluids inside?
Nope.
Weirdly, even Prof. Blackman agrees with me on this one thing.
Read David Thomas Konig's paper "Why The Second Amendment Has a Preamble: Original Public Meaning and the Political Culture of Written Constitutions in Revolutionary America." That is if you ever have the guts to challenge your preconceived opinions.
Lower courts being all over the map demonstrate the standard is not clear, as does this case.
Only by assuming massive amounts of bad faith can you claim Bruen is clear guidance.
Brett needs to argue Aliito is a pretextual conservative.
Maybe given 10 years or so we will develop the kind of nuanced precidential foundation to make our gun rights jurisprudence clear and predictable like it was.
Yeah, when it comes to gun control, it’s generally reasonable to assume massive amounts of bad faith. Gun control would be as constitutionally feasible as press control, otherwise.
It’s perfectly OK for you to say that you don’t like the 2nd amendment. There are parts of the Constitution I don’t like, too.
To give you an example from the culinary world: Suppose you were translating an old recipe for Roman “garum”, a popular condiment back in the day. The stuff sounds pretty gross, but it’s not hard to clearly determine what the recipe was. It’s fermented fish guts.
Now, suppose that you were legally obligated to EAT garum. Oh, man. Suddenly the recipe is really hard to translate. Really, it’s just salted anchovies, right? Yeah, that’s the ticket!
No, it really is fermented fish guts, and you’re just lying because you don’t want to be forced to eat fermented fish guts.
That’s the way it is with real historical documents, if you’re honest about what they mean: You’re going to be admitting much of the time that they mean things you don’t like, because they were originated by people who had different beliefs and values from you. And why WOULD you expect the founders to have written a Constitution that you liked every bit of?
Constitutional honesty means that you don’t warp the meaning to fit what you like. But, since the meaning of the Constitution has legal force, a lot of people don’t want to treat it honestly, they engage in motivated reasoning to arrive at conclusions they’re comfortable with.
It’s fermented fish guts, so they lie about it. But there's no ambiguity, it really IS fermented fish guts, and they're lying.
You say all this, yet you seem to be on the side of constitutional dishonesty. Heller got the Second Amendment somewhat wrong, and Bruen and Rahimi are moving even further in the wrong direction.
Heller got the 2nd amendment wrong, and your complaint is that Heller didn't get the 2nd amendment wrong ENOUGH.
Don't be so sure. I think the assault weapons ban is plainly unconstitutional under a correct reading of the Second Amendment, for example.
But anyway, you gave this whole diatribe about constitutional honesty in defense of Bruen, then you admit that it's wrong and constitutionally dishonest. You get how that's weird, right?
Constitutional honesty means that you don’t warp the meaning to fit what you like.
Put simply: Says who?
The Constitution doesn't tell us how we are to interpret it or apply it. Even if it purported to do so, that instruction would have no power apart from our decision to follow it. It's a myth - one often adopted by people like yourself, who lack training in the liberal arts and approach the question like reading computer code - to say that the Constitution has some kind of binding force that reaches through history. We bind ourselves, by rules of our own choosing. Whether those rules should include whatever it is you think you mean by "Constitutional honesty" is entirely up to us.
And no, simply adopting a "constitution" does not, by itself, tell us what we're to do with it. Again, that's a (possible) rule of legal interpretation, not analytical to what a "constitution" logically is or must be. You need to unpack all of your implicit assumptions about constitutional interpretation and be clear on what grounds they're founded.
The originalist case for interpreting and applying the text of the Constitution in accordance with its original public meaning is typically justified (by those who make the argument) by pointing to what we call "rule of law" values. The idea being that the rule of law requires knowing what the law at any given moment requires. The best way to have the law be patent and known by all is to have some fixity in its meaning; and originalist constitutional construction is purported to be a way of "fixing" that meaning, for now until it's changed by amendment.
That's all well and good in the abstract. It is, of course, much less clear in practice, but I will bracket for now some of the obvious methodological problems it presents. I will instead focus on a different problem, which is this: our constitutional law is not originalist. It really never has been. That is just descriptively true.
And I appreciate that you (among others) claim that has been some kind of monstrous doctrinal mistake that requires correction. But wholesale or piecemeal adoption of originalist constitutional construction suffers from a key problem - it lacks originalist justification. Originalism is supposedly justified, if at all, by its serving "rule of law" values. But the rule of law is not served by simply adopting originalism into a system that has not been meaningfully originalist, practically from its inception, and it is not served by adopting originalism piecemeal into such a system.
Bruen demonstrates this wonderfully. Because the immediate aftermath of that opinion saw some courts claiming to follow it "faithfully," embracing the absurd outcomes it seemed to require, while other courts sought to incorporate it into a broader body of non-originalist case law. No one really knew what Bruen required. It was just an hubristic statement of principle, from an ideologically isolated extremist on the bench and backed by a majority of conservative justices too lazy or preoccupied by their own agendas to rein him in.
And now Rahimi is showing us just why importing originalism into a non-originalist legal system is so stupid. People have been regulating guns for decades, people have been enforcing and complying with those laws, and those laws have been upheld, without anyone cottoning on to the idea that the only permissible regulations have to be selected from a limited palette of options that can be found in the history books describing the period around the Founding to the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment. Declaring all of those regulations and laws invalid now frustrates the most important rule of law values there are, and Rahimi shows us that the justices grasp that, if only circumspectly.
Well said.
+1
You know, you could apply much the same reasoning to Brown in defense of Jim Crow, right? You do understand that, I hope.
You will have to supply the argument, Brett. Because if I am left to fill in the blanks you've left here, I'm forced to conclude simply that you didn't understand any of what I wrote.
On the subject of gun control and bad faith, I have to remind you that this country saw absolutely nothing resembling modern gun control laws, until Jim Crow. Gun control in the modern sense, simply attempting to disarm people without much in the way of a pretense that they were personally guilty of anything, got its start with Jim Crow. That's WHY you can't find your damned historical analogs! Before the 20th century, all efforts at disarmament were aimed at distrusted minorities. Indians. Slaves. Blacks.
Specific groups those in power wanted defenseless, because it meant to beat them down.
Then it expanded when some people in the government went from not trusting blacks with guns, to not trusting the general population with guns.
So bad faith is baked into the gun control movement, it started out as a conscious effort to deny people rights, and just gradually expanded who would have them denied.
On the subject of gun control and bad faith, I have to remind you that this country saw absolutely nothing resembling modern gun control laws, until Jim Crow.
That is sort of right. Earlier, the gun controls were all over the place, and enforced without uniformity, nor even necessarily in accord with law at all.
In the pre-founding era you saw as a matter of course arbitrary gun control enforcement. It was a natural legal outgrowth of arbitrary English legal traditions, which entitled a small minority to due process, and disposed of the vast majority according to the whims of their betters.
Also, in the colonies, some folks were subject to enforcement, others not. Distinctions of social status, familiarity to the community, religious affiliation, and other uncodified magisterial viewpoints figured in case outcomes. Sometimes, non-Christian Indians accused of crimes were treated more leniently than white Christians, apparently on a theory that enforced moral responsibility for an untutored heathen was unjust.
Another factor: whether a locality enjoyed access to a magistrate at all. In the many places where no one was adequately trained for the job, and someone adequately educated might have to visit to hear a case, even laws on the books often went unenforced—except in cases of community outrage, or the gravest crimes. Thus, notably more lenient standards of law were practical expectations for thinly settled regions, as compared to settled areas. Two sets of standards existed side-by-side. But even that did not complete the chaos. Different towns used different standards.
Note also, in particular with regard to weapons accusations: today's way of thinking about determining criminal liability was often reversed. Although the entire notion of systematized, uniform, and dispassionate law enforcement had yet to achieve uniform acceptance, on one point there was broad agreement. It could be a crime to put someone else in fear. And proof of the crime had more to do with the victim's state of mind than with the intent of the person charged. An unexpected or hard-to-explain display of arms could prove legal guilt if the person reporting it convinced the magistrate that to see it put them in fear.
They pretend the standard isn't clear because they disagree and are actively resisting that reality that it's a fundamental right.
If they fairly applied the standard, many gun restrictions would be struck down. They don't want that.
Also why it's obnoxious for people who think there has been a right to same-sex marriage since 1868 not to allow for the possibility that the long time failure to push back against infringing laws means that a particular right doesn't exist.
So you're positing massive bad faith. In many of the commenters here, and a bunch of lower courts, and 8 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices.
Or, you could admit perhaps your take may not be one everyone agrees with.
Who argues there's been a right to gay marriage since the 1868? Do you think everyone is originalist?
Yes, with respect to same-sex marriage as a constitutional right, there was massive bad faith. If the 14th Amendment is the source of the right to same-sex marriage, then the right existed at the moment of its ratification in 1868. People were just too stupid to realize that for 150 years, until the question was finally asked. It doesn’t seem to matter that nobody asked the question for those 150 some years because nobody thought it did, so there was little precedent to say otherwise. Judges “discovering” new federal rights is nonsense. That’s not how the US Constitution works, especially in a case where same-sex marriage wasn’t a thing when it was adopted. Unlike the right to keep and bear arms, which definitely was. 2A recognized its pre-existence.
As to many people actively resisting the right to keep and bear arms, yes that’s been happening too. That the Supreme Court ruled as it did in Rahimi does not mean 8 justices have been acting in bad faith on a new particular question presented. But just like federal courts resisted equality, and countenanced “separate but equal” for almost a century, from the adoption of 14A until Brown v Board of Education, yes absolutely courts and lawmakers can defy precedent and or the actual meaning of an amendment.
Racial discrimination was unconstitutional from 1868 when the 14th Amendment was adopted. That courts and society failed to fully implement it does not change that fact. Or require one to be an originalist. But for an original public meaning advocate, it is the perfect example. Because even though the people at the time may not have liked the consequences of the adopted text, its legal meaning was inescapable. Even as they dodged it for 100 years, just like Jefferson and the Founders were discomforted by his “all men are created equal” words and slavery. Just like DEI advocates today don’t like that it means that government cannot give racial preferences to minorities.
You thinking something is nonsense doesn’t mean the many people who think it’s not nonsense are all in bad faith.
The lower courts don't even have to go that far. Many have just ruled something like "There is historical analogue for imposing laws to protect public safety, and this law protects public safety, and under Rahimi, that's close enough."
Any court could write any opinion on either side of any gun issue.
Assault weapons?
For: No historical law prohibiting the style or look of a gun. No regulatory blank check. Possibly dangerous but not unusual. Many people own them.
Against: At the founding, no commonly used weapon had such rate of fire. Tabula rosa. Law not trapped in amber. Laws banning dangerous and unusual carry close enough--don't need a twin, just an analogue. Same principle underlies the dangerous and unusual law.
You can rinse and repeat this with every.single.gun.issue. Heller may end up scrapped for exactly the same reason as Roe--no principled application or standard to guide it.
Man, Blackman really doesn’t understand facial challenges. He’s always on about and dumbfounded by them.
Lopez prevailed because there was no set of circumstances that the law—as written at the time—he violated passed muster under the Commerce Clause, which is the Clause he raised in his challenge. If there had been even one set of circumstances that the statute could be constitutional, then his facial challenge would have failed.
Rahimi raised the Second Amendment, and, according to the Supreme Court, there were at least some circumstances his conduct wasn’t protected. So his challenge failed.
This ain’t hard.
(The First Amendment is in fact different because the Supreme Court allows facial overbreadth challenges. It shouldn’t, but it does.)
How about if a person set up a firearms import/export business on the school playground? That's one application of the original GFSZA that would clearly fall within Congress' power to regulate.
So according to Rahimi, Lopez' facial challenge should fail.
Since that’s not what the statute in Lopez criminalized, that’s an irrelevant hypo. It’s not whether Congress could pass a constitutional law, it’s whether it did.
But the Salerno test used by the Court in Rahimi was that there has to be “no set of facts” under which the statute could be constitutionally applied.
Since as you admit that there are instances of gun possession in a school zone which could affect interstate commerce, then Lopez should have been required to raise an as applied challenge– which he would have failed.
The distinctions made by those on the other side don’t make much sense. Rahimi argued that the law was beyond Congress’ power to pass. So did Lopez. Why does commerce clause v. Second Amendment make a meaningful difference? Congress has no more power to exceed the commerce clause limits than to violate the Second Amendment.
ETA: The import/exporter of firearms on the playground would have absolutely violated the GFSZA.
A law prohibiting simple possession of firearms without an interstate-commerce element is not the same as a law prohibiting or regulating the import/export or sale of firearms. You’re comparing apples and oranges. Under the law as it existed in Lopez, your importer/exporter also couldn’t be prosecuted for simple possession of a firearm. Thus, he could have made a successful facial challenge if that’s what he were charged with. If, on the other hand, he were charged with selling firearms in international or interstate commerce, then a facial challenge would almost certainly fail.
This isn’t a Commerce Clause vs. Second Amendment distinction. It’s a difference between what law was actually enacted and prosecuted vs. one you just made up.
As I explained the last time this came up, the Lopez gotcha is, to put it mildly, unconvincing.
To recap, Congress has only the powers that it's expressly delegated by the Constitution. Some provisions, like the Bill of Rights, limit what it can do with even those delegated powers.
Lopez argued that Congress hadn't been delegated the power to enact the statute that he was convicted of violating in the first place (and, of course, the Supreme Court agreed). That being the case, it was irrelevant that Congress could have passed a different statute that still would have captured his conduct.
Rahimi, by contrast, didn't dispute that Congress had been delegated the power to pass the statute he was convicted of violating. Rather, he said that enforcing the statute against him would violate his individual rights protected by the Second Amendment. To analyze that question, it was necessary to look at his specific circumstances.
The fact that a law professor (even at one of the worst law schools in the country) is still harping upon this is bad. The fact that a federal circuit judge is (pretending to be?) confused is worse.
Yeah; I was mystified reading the post above. There's no such thing as an as applied challenge saying that Congress entirely lacked the power to enact a statute. (Or, to look at it another way, it merges with a facial challenge.)
But Congress does not lack the power to prohibit guns in school zones. It lacks the power to prohibit guns in school zones ONLY where there is no nexus to interstate commerce. When that nexus is present, it can pass such a statute.
As such, why wasn’t Lopez required to show that his particular possession of a gun did not affect interstate commerce? That’s the question and I think a good one.
Because the statute in effect at the time didn’t require any of an interstate nexus. The justification was that possessing a gun in a school zone automatically and inherently affects interstate commerce so that there’s no need for a case-specific showing. But of course the Supreme Court rejected that argument. Having done so, it was irrelevant whether Congress could have passed a different statute that would have covered Lopez’s conduct (as it in fact did in response to the decision).
Edit: Perhaps this will help. There are many valid federal laws prohibiting certain types of murder, such as murder of a federal official or murder on federal property. But there's no general prohibition on murder, and it's pretty well understood that there's no enumerated power to enact one. If Congress did that anyway, the government couldn't defend a conviction obtained under it by pointing to specific facts about the offense that might have hypothetically established federal jurisdiction under a different statute.
What if the government’s litigation position was that it accepted that the GFSZA was only valid where it was consistent with the commerce clause? Then would it have been valid as applied to Lopez?
Is the fix for the Lopez problem simply appending "in or affecting commerce" to every law, including your murder hypothetical?
It seems to me just a semantics game. I see no real difference between Salerno and Lopez except how the law itself is described. Salerno specifically says "no set of facts." If I can apply a fact (that X occurred in or affecting commerce) then I still fail to see the difference between Salerno and Lopez.
The government can't by concession add an element to a crime that doesn't actually exist in the statute. Nothing in the statute required the government to prove or the jury to find that it affected interstate commerce.
Why does the commerce clause have to be an "element" of the crime? If Congress regulates conduct that by its definition falls under its enumerated powers, then it has complied with the Constitution.
What case stands for the proposition that the commerce clause must be an element? If it regulates commerce, then it is a good statute. Especially given that under current jurisprudence one would be hard pressed to conceive of a firearm possession that did not involve commerce clause powers.
Why does violating the commerce clause have a different standard of review than violating the Second Amendment?
That would be precisely what I described above: it doesn't matter that a different statute would have both been within Congress's power and would have covered the defendant's conduct. What matters is whether Congress was even authorized the pass the law that it enacted.*
Yes, under current doctrine that would probably be enough to render any given criminal law constitutional. But if Congress doesn’t take that step (and often it doesn’t!) then the fact that it could have doesn’t save the law. And of course when Congress amends the law (which, to be clear, is exactly what happened after Lopez), the ex post facto clause prevents that from saving the original conviction.
*Prof. Stephen Sachs has argued that Congress should pass a law that says
That is an interesting idea that would seem to enable the government to present such a defense. But Congress has not adopted this proposal (Note that Prof. Sachs discusses Lopez and Salerno in his post.)
"What matters is whether Congress was even authorized the pass the law that it enacted.*"
But that's exactly the argument that Rahimi made: Congress was not authorized to pass the law because it violated the Second Amendment.
I'm just failing to see why magic words make all the difference in commerce clause cases only.
It's made all the worse by Judge Ho's recharacterization of "deserves to be in prison" vs not. It's like he's trying to do something novel but the logical error in analogizing to Lopez is glaring.
You may disagree with Judge Ho (and Justice Thomas) regarding Lopez, but there’s nothing particularly confusing about it.
Justice Ho, following Justice Thomas, is indicating that he questions Congress’ power to enact this statute under the Commerce Clause. After all, the idea that Congress can regulate anything if it involves the possession or use of something that once passed through interstate commerce, extends things far beyond anything Wickard ever did. Does the Commerce Power really extend to a complete regulatory regime of sex between married couples if they use contraceptives, or a bed, or a house made with materials, that previously passed through interstate commerce?
Justice Thomas has repeatedly argued in various concurrences and dissents that once goods have left the stream of commerce and gone to their final destination, Congress’ power has ended. Thus Congress should not have power to regulate simple possession or use of goods by consumers, people who are neither manufacturers nor distributers nor retailers. In this view Congress lacks power to pass the underlying statute.
That’s why Lopez is relevant.
I generally agree with Justice Thomas's Commerce Clause jurisprudence and believe most of the federal criminal laws we have are unconstitutional under it. That aside, Judge Ho is doing something entirely different by invoking Lopez and makes an elementary logical fallacy. He relies on Lopez to make a point about facial challenges.
Ho is very clearly not doing that. You can tell because the only time he mentions the commerce clause is to contrast it to the claim he is considering, Rahimi's second amendment argument.
WGAF? Rahimi was not about a challenge to Congress's authority under the Commerce Clause, so the comments would be entirely irrelevant even if your interpretation is correct.
I have no doubt that Judge Ho’s remarks about “sincere concerns” regarding “potential faults” with the statute with respect to Lopez raised by judges, practitioners, amoci, etc. are irrelevant to deciding the case. judge Ho said so himself. But nonetheless, Judge Ho did make them.
You guys are so naive to imagine that there is still any legal or systematic basis behind any of these decisions. What really happened is Clarence Thomas et al. found that they could get the biggest post-decision bribes (financial rewards) for ruling one way, so they ruled that way, and then they found that they could get the biggest next round of rewards (post-decision bribes) for ruling another way, so they did.
Precedent, the text of the Constitution, and the intent of the Founders had nothing to do with it. You are like someone who tries to base an argument about what the national jurisprudence requires on which colors are present in the country's flag. In real life the one has nothing to do with the other.
While I think many justices take something of a pragmatic approach rather than following strict logic wherever it leads, and I don’t think justices should be getting paid vacations, large book advances, easy teaching gigs to teach a single course requiring little preparation in a vacation area with luxury accommodations, and all the rest of the pork-laden gravy train that justices both liberal and conservative have boarded and swilled at, nonetheless I suspect the liberals would still rule liberally and the conservatives would still rule conservatively whether they were getting these side perks or not.
I think the 2nd Amendment absolutists are suffering from a wildly expansive view of what the Court intended. Moreover, I think that the middle 3 of Roberts, Kavanaugh, and Barrett, while being conservative on issues like abortion, and willing to uphold a qualified individual right to keep and bear arms, just aren’t movement absolutists on these issues.
Finally, in the AHM case, the 5th circuit’s interpretation of the standing rules was particularly wildly exaggerated. Once upon a time, being serious about standing was a conservative position. The idea was courts were to express opinions and interfere with others only when necessary. The fact that today’s “conservatives” go far out of their way to find excuses to write opinions and impose their values says a great deal about how things have changed.
This is the conservative counterpart to the movement liberals who whined when the Court didn’t strike down obscenity laws, order states to pay for abortions, and all the other things that resulted in much teeth-gnashing on the liberal side, with similar claims that the Court was being completely hypocritical and too chicken to follow the obvious path its principles and precedents led to.
"Moreover, I think that the middle 3 of Roberts, Kavanaugh, and Barrett, while being conservative on issues like abortion, and willing to uphold a qualified individual right to keep and bear arms, just aren’t movement absolutists on these issues."
Yeah, the truth is that they don't particularly LIKE the 2nd amendment, they're not comfortable with it, and they'll only uphold it to the extent that their legal principles overcome that discomfort.
The difference is that the 'liberal' Justices' principles don't constrain outcomes as much, and their antipathy to the right in question is much, much greater.
No, Brett. The truth is that they think your interpretation of the 2nd amendment is loony and wrong.
For the avoidance of doubt: Bruen is not "the 2nd amendment." So even if Rahimi amended Bruen, that does not mean that they do not like the 2nd amendment.
Yeah, your position makes sense if you start from the assumption that interpretations of constitutional text are largely arbitrary. So there's not really anything to measure an interpretation against, to declare it loony and wrong.
Obviously I don't agree that interpretation of constitutional text is an exercise of arbitrary discretion. It's perfectly capable of being wrong.
The thing that’s confusing about you, Brett, is you’ve admitted before that you think the interpretation of the Second Amendment in Heller was wrong. Bruen and Rahimi have only doubled- and tripled-down on that misinterpretation.
So why are you defending Bruen as the one-and-only correct interpretation? It clearly isn’t.
You're confusing magnitude and direction.
Heller got the 2nd amendment wrong by reducing the right to a fraction of it's historical scope.
Bruen got it wrong, but LESS wrong, by restoring some, but not all, of that historical scope.
Rahimi gets it wrong, but more than Bruen and less than Heller, by throwing away some of that historical scope.
And your complaint with all of them is they didn't get it as wrong as you'd like.
But see, you know that the current interpretation is wrong, but you’re not engaging with why it’s wrong. You’re just looking at which opinion gives you an outcome that’s closest to the one you prefer.
You shouldn’t accept an opinion that gives you an outcome you like but for the wrong reasons.
Heller got the 2nd amendment wrong by reducing the right to a fraction of it’s historical scope.
Heller got it wrong because it reads several words of the 2nd Amendment out of it.
Right, and in so doing, deprived the People of their constitutional right to own military weapons.
... as well as the government's ability to regulate gun use in unrelated contexts.
It's more like that those three have a center-right "NRA lite" view of the Second Amendment. And it seems that the "historical evidence" will magically line up with their policy preferences.
Likewise, Sotomayor, Kagan, and Jackson will always find historical evidence to uphold any gun regulation.
I generally agree with looking to history and tradition to solve issues, but these middle three are showing exactly why it is as easily manipulable as tiers of scrutiny or other balancing tests. You just view history through your own lenses. If you think that it is absurd that the founders would have wanted domestic abusers or machine gun possession, then it is easy to read obscure and scattered law to fit your own narrative.
It's all words, and words have no power to compel people who do not allow themselves to be compelled. So, EVERY standard is easily manipulable by anybody determined to manipulate it.
I came in to write something, but saw that Area Man and Noscitur had already covered it.
I am sadly unsurprised that the two people who seem to not understand basic legal concepts (pace the reference to Lopez) are Josh Blackman and Judge Ho.
Yes. The error is so plain.
See my comment regarding Lopez above.
... which is totally wrong, as Noscitur pointed out.
Here, as in the Mifepristone case, Judge Ho seems to go out of his way to unnecessarily reframe an issue on his terms. In Mifepristone, he advocated for an odd and strained view of aesthetic standing. Wrong, but fine given the Supreme Court’s strained standing jurisprudence and it was at least logical to some extent. But here, the “those who *deserve* to be in prison (because bad guy) vs those who don’t” approach comes unmoored, and the Lopez analogy is incredibly poor.
He might be wrong, but surely the important thing is that Judge Ho has "courage," right?
If he had true courage, he would have named his daughter Heidi.
The rule that lower courts shouldn't, if you'll pardon the expression, jump the gun on the Supreme Court when the continuing validity of an as-yet overruled precedent is in question is well-established. It is also toothless. If you guess wrong, you get reversed, at worst with a lecture. If you guess right, no harm, no foul. You probably don't even get a stern talking-to.
I can't agree with this. Because it does a lot of damage to how the law works.
Look, there are a lot of things I think the Supreme Court gets wrong. But it's not my job as an attorney to argue that they're wrong- it's my job to apply what they've said. And it's the same for judges. I have a lot of respect for judges that apply the precedent that they have to (vertical stare decisis) even when they disagree with it- because that is, quite literally, their job.
Any yahoo, many of them who comment here, can opine about what they think the law should be and just write their own stuff.
Integrity means following the law, not goin freelance for a big Ho ho ho laugh.
I take CJColucci to be agreeing with you about what judges should do. Their point, I think, is that since there aren't any real consequences for not doing it, we have to rely on judges' own integrity. And as you note, there can be problems with that!
I guess so (and I apologize to CJ to the extent I misunderstood!).
I hate to say that there were some "golden time" (there wasn't) but I do think that some judges are getting more brazen in just sayin', "Screw it. Ima do what I want."
Even so, the law stuff? It bugs the heck out of me, but not as much as when certain judges are screwing with the procedure to get their results.
No apologies necessary. I can see why you might have thought I was expressing approval of the practice, even though I wasn't. I've found over the years that we rarely disagree.
As far as the substance, let me do my best to promote maximal disagreement. I genuinely believe:
1. The Second Amendment is a key freedom that needs to be taken far more seriously than a lot of lower-court judges want to take it.
2. Bruen was an excellent decision.
3. Far from contravening, overruling, reversing, or revising Bruen, Rahimi clarified the holding in a way that will be workable for lower courts and litigants, reasonable as a matter of policy, and convincing as a matter of originalist constitutional interpretation. In that sense, it is also an excellent decision.
4. If courts faithfully apply Rahimi—and Roberts wrote it in a way that will make it somewhat harder not to—gun rights will be in even better shape than they are now.
5. Striking down the law at issue in Rahimi (18 U.S.C. 922(g)(8)) would have had a negligible effect on public safety: the consequences wouldn't even register.
Yes to all but especially #4 (and #3). That was my initial reaction reading the chief’s opinion. He was saying to the lower courts: f*ck yeah we meant what we said in Heller and Bruen. And you better stop f*cking around or we’ll start taking more of these cases and give you the 9th circuit per curiam treatment, because I’ve got a stable majority here to do it. While an imperfect case, Rahimi was an adequate vehicle to deliver the message that enough is enough. Because it was an imperfect case.
My reaction was not “oh nos gun rights are being weakened!” because a bad dude who waived his right to challenge the circumstances of his guns being confiscated had his guns confiscated.
I remain confident that when the case arises, this majority will insist on a sufficient due process standard.
You might have had me, except for the "Bruen was an excellent decision."
I think that we have seen exactly why it isn't. Because decisions have to be workable- as in, able to be applied by the lower courts. Bruen was most certainly not a workable decision.
There is a reason that no other civil right has the Bruen standard, and it will continue to be a mess. IMO.
Well, I did say I was going to maximize disagreement.
In my view, what's unworkable about Bruen (on its own) is that it doesn't provide enough guidance about how its test is going to work. How dissimilar can a historical be before it loses relevance? And what do we even mean by similarity here?
On the other hand, I'm not sure it would have been right for Bruen to try to resolve those questions: given how far-reaching they were, and how far outside the scope of what the opinion needed to resolve, we'd be shading perilously close to advisory opinion territory.
Now, if the Supreme Court had then pulled another McDonald and waited a decade before taking another case that could add clarity, some criticisim would certainly be in order. But fortunately, they didn't (although admittedly, the Fifth Circuit didn't give them much choice). And in doing so, they not only clarified Bruen, but clarified it in a good way.
See, the reason that I think Bruen is unworkable is that .... brace for it ...
Attorneys and judges are bad historians. That's why we use some originalism, but we don't try to find the analog of the relevant and specific issue for other civil liberties.
Imagine, if you will, what a hash this would make of the FA.
(Finally, I would also say that to do it correctly, we should at least be applying the laws that were in place, vis-a-vis state laws, when the 14th was passed, not the 2d)
I take the point, but I don't think I can agree with it. In appropriate cases, we expect attorneys to present and judges to analyze complex technical argument in (for instance) medicine, engineering, biomechanics, chemistry, genetics, psychiatry, and economics. Pace Stephen Lathrop, I'm not convinced that history is so much more difficult that it's unreasonable to ask for it to be included in the mix.
Well, the difference is that history is most decidedly in the past. It is nearly impossible to fully understand it, and worse, we bring our modern biases into it. I will reiterate that it was bizarre seeing the importance placed on punctuation in the Second Amendment when reputable scholarship has shown that at that time, they weren't using punctuation like we do today. Bizarre? I meant aggravating.
So you have two sides, presenting bad history to a decision maker ill-equipped to understand it.
By the way, I also think that for certain other highly technical issues, we also get things wrong more often than in other cases. But at least in those cases we usually have people with experience in the field, and it's a modern dispute that is factual; not a matter of law determined by so-called "history."
Right. Courts in those cases are (typically) deciding specific cases, not establishing legal rules. If a judge or jury is bamboozled by a hired-gun expert and decides that, I dunno, drinking a lot of Red Bull caused someone's mesothelioma, it transfers some money around but that's it. That's not the same as striking down a bunch of the penal code for everyone.
That's one of the confusing parts of Bruen.
Since it stresses that "party presentation" should decide the historical issues, it seems only fair that different litigants can repeatedly raise the same gun control issue if they claim that the prior litigant left out a crucial historical fact that their hired gun expert raises. That goes for both sides.
If I have Rahimi, Jr. as a client, I can claim that Rahimi's experts left out a crucial feature of the surety law and didn't argue the case properly. The lawyer for Rahimi III can say the same about me and Rahimi I.
Sure. But when an appellate court decides that a particular field of expert testimony is or isn't reliable enough to be admissible, that is setting a rule that affects everyone. Likewise when a court decides whether sociological, economic, or scientific evidence is enough to provide a sufficiently compelling justification for a particular law that implicates individual rights. Or when a court tries to evaluate statistical evidence about electoral districts.
But when an appellate court decides that a particular field of expert testimony is or isn’t reliable enough to be admissible, that is setting a rule that affects everyone.
So the notion is that a Thomas led majority can declare historical research too unreliable to admit using historians as experts, and then go on to decide cases on the basis of their own historical research—or, of course, their unresearched present-minded nonsense?
Sure. Just like a Kennedy led majority can decide hanging rapists is cruel and unusual, or a Blackmun led majority can decide there is a right to an abortion, or Brown led majority can decide separate but equal is just hunky dory, and a Warren led court can decide it isn't.
'disagrees with your policy preferences' != 'illegitimate'
Noscitur — Not at all surprising that you would suppose history is easier than it turns out to be. Absolutely everyone who has not yet tried using original records to do conscientious historical research expects that, including novice would-be professional historians.
The work itself instructs about the difficulties. Once you have spent even a few months rummaging through records from some antique era, looking to prove this or that proposition, and getting only surprises, the truth begins to dawn: "These people were way different than I supposed, and it is really hard to understand why they never did what I expected." After that happens, you are ready to begin work as a serious historical scholar.
You seem plenty bright enough to do that kind of work and benefit from it. Maybe you ought to give it a try, and see for yourself how easy it is.
It would be helpful to seek out a graduate seminar under the guidance of an esteemed senior historian. More than in most other professional fields, run-of-the-mill historians tend to under-perform, and they turn out to be the vast majority.
I think there is unusual opportunity for someone who can combine legal expertise with the training to do and critique sophisticated historical research. Anyone with a law degree is already half way there. If you don't want to do it yourself, maybe seek out someone younger and advise them to take a look.
For whatever it's worth, I have an extensive academic background in history, including work at the post-graduate level.
Can you say more? Academic history? Something else? Legal history? What extensive interest in history did you pursue in that post-graduate activity?
Noscitur — Also try to notice a singular difference in customary legal procedure with regard to technical expertise in various fields. In the listed fields you mention, it is commonplace for lawyers and judges to find experts and listen to them. With history, when the lawyers and judges are not setting themselves up as historical experts, they are busy disparaging the notion that any expertise is needed.
I wonder if there has ever been any case ever where a historical expert has been asked to explain in court the fundamentals of sound historical methodology.
Sometimes in technical areas, lawyers call expert witnesses to testify. Sometimes they consult with experts and incorporate their opinions into what they present. And sometimes they try to do research independently and figure it out on their own. Why can we trust them to figure that out in every other specialized field except for history?
Why can we trust them to figure that out in every other specialized field except for history?
Maybe because in the other cases, the stakes typically do not extend so much to sweeping interpretations of Constitutional policy as they do in cases invoking so-called originalism.
Also, maybe because those other instances can at least be served by general knowledge in present context—which cases with historically contingent outcomes cannot be.
It's an interesting question, but why would you do that for a federal law like this one?
You wouldn't. Just one of my pet peeves when it comes to originalism. There is almost a singular inability to use the correct dates when it comes to state laws (incorporation).
Which brings up an interesting side isse-
If "reverse incorporation" is correct (federal government, EPC) then what is the correct date for that?
Yes, that's what makes it a bad decision: it's unworkable. It's not that it doesn't provide "enough" guidance; it doesn't provide any guidance, neither as to how similar a historical law must be nor as to how many historical examples are required.
Well, one of the things. It's also based on a flawed premise: that legislatures in the 18th century necessarily legislated up to the maximum bounds of their power, so therefore any restriction that wasn't in existence then is no longer permissible now.
Moreover, it requires busy district court judges, prosecutors, and defense attorneys involved in ordinary criminal cases to be doing academic historical research. If we had courts of cassation in this country that could go around evaluating all the
firearmsweapons laws out there, that'd be one thing, but the quotidian criminal justice system is not adequate for this purpose."It’s also based on a flawed premise: that legislatures in the 18th century necessarily legislated up to the maximum bounds of their power, so therefore any restriction that wasn’t in existence then is no longer permissible now."
I think you're not understanding the reasoning behind Bruen.
We start with the text of the amendment, which is very absolute: The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be "infringed". Note that "infringed" means encroached on, not utterly extinguished; You infringe the right when you first START to restrict it, not when you finish obliterating it.
Facially, this would leave no room for laws even inconveniencing people in owning guns, or in any way restricting carrying them. But this goes too far.
THEN, and only then, you look at contemporary practice, to establish exceptions to the absolute rule. If you can find a commonly accepted infringement that people at the time didn't think problematic, you've established an exception that you can apply today.
If you can't? The text's absolute prohibition stands.
You can't hypothesize exceptions and apply them: Permitting that lets you extinguish the right entirely, just by speculating that the founding generation would have been OK with extinguishing it if the legislature had decided to.
This is similar to 1st amendment practice, where Congress can make NO law, but the accepted existence of libel laws at the time permits libel laws today anyway, despite that "no".
There's certainly some guidance: the defenders of the restriction need to supply similar historical analogues. And the ones that New York tried to provide weren't enough. That left an awful lot of uncertainty about how many, how much similarity, and how close in time things needed to be in order to justify things. But a lot of explanation about what would have hypothetically worked wouldn't have really been appropriate in a case where it wouldn't have made a difference. And I don't think that the fact that the test framed for a particular case leaves a lot of uncertainty means that the test is wrong.
That's true of Justice Thomas's Rahimi dissent, which is why I think that dissent is wrong. But it's not true of the Rahimi majority's opinion, which is exactly why I think it's the correct way of resolving Bruen's ambiguity.
But these issues should get decisively resolved into readily applicable principles of law by the Supreme Court.
And at any rate, we expect trial practitioners and judges to evaluate whether things like polygraphs or DNA profiles are reliable enough to be admissible, or whether the economic effects of a merger are anticompetitive enough to block it, or whether an alternate design for a product was safer enough that company should be liable for not designing it that way, or whether a particular person is mentally ill and if so whether being forcibly medicated is likely to improve them enough to be worthwhile, and so on. I don't think it's too much to ask them to figure out what firearms restrictions looked like in the eighteenth century.
Similar isn't clear.
What to do with counterexamples isn't clear.
How many analogues are needed isn't clear.
Rahimi turned on the unclear scope of similarity issue. And it did so via the 'find me a rock. No not that rock' style of guidance.
I also take issue with your analogy between the validity of forensic evidence and history. First, courts' history of dealing with scientific validity is mixed to say the least.
But more importantly, history is not a science. It's got a ton of subjectivity baked in, since it encompasses wildly different perspectives as all valid.
I agree that with time and precedent, all these will be clarified. But the way it will have to be is to bit by bit clip the historical analysis until we judicially decide what is right. Which is going to be subjective as hell. And take a lot of time before that's all shaken out.
Shades of I know it when I see it.
It’s also based on a flawed premise: that legislatures in the 18th century necessarily legislated up to the maximum bounds of their power, so therefore any restriction that wasn’t in existence then is no longer permissible now.
Nieporent, that is insightful and helpful. But it omits to express the full extent of the historical problem.
Not only did colonial legislatures not always hand down universally applicable legal texts, to be uniformly enforced in all the colonies, but also American legislatures did not typically expect or intend consistent textual reading, or uniform enforcement. They relied instead—in varying degrees, and with differences in different times and places—on a very long English legal tradition of due process for a minority designated freemen, accompanied by arbitrary and even whimsical enforcement for the vast majority who were not freemen.
That meant that many legal texts got interpretations which modern legal context would judge so variable as to be almost protean. A colonial law-giving authority might pass a law with an expectation to suppress ongoing, commonplace, disfavored behavior. Or it might pass the same text with a precautionary eye to prevent activity which it feared might happen. Or it might pass the same text with no intention that the law actually be enforced, but simply as a moral exhortation. Or all of those intentions could be to some degree applicable at once—but with applications applied differently among different parties.
Religious status of the accused affected enforcement, sometimes in the accused’s favor, sometimes to the accused’s detriment; personal familiarity among the community of which the accused was a member was expected to affect enforcement, with strangers typically less legally privileged; whether a rural region or settled place was charged with enforcement made notable differences, especially in cases amounting to petty crimes, up through serious crimes which fell short of the most heinous; different colonies had legal texts and law enforcement traditions inflected by the various national traditions among immigrants to those colonies; in some colonies at some times, some activities—hunting was an example in early Massachusetts—were judged legally permissible among those thought likely to be successful, but legally questionable for others; in some colonies but not others, legal principles to evaluate the intent of the accused could be overridden by an alleged victim’s estimate of what was intended, to which a magistrate might give higher priority—it was sometimes criminal conduct to put someone else in fear, no matter what the intent of the accused; everywhere, high social status was expected to justify legal privileges not afforded to others; testimony from high status people was expected to get credibility higher than from others.
All those legal context variations turn up to different degrees in different times and different places, throughout colonial history. It is all part of the actual history and tradition of this nation. And of course that list is but a small sampling from a vast range of variability.
Some of what I mention above will be recognized as commonplace in modern legal context, some will not. The notion that a past so variable—and so packed with contrary instances—can deliver a practical yardstick to gauge present-day legal outcomes seems preposterous. But no more preposterous than the notion that some bits of that past ought to be singled out as especially relevant, with the other bits arbitrarily discarded.
"the vast majority who were not freemen"
That may have been true in Jolly Olde, but the vast majority of people in the colonies were free men[1], and the bill of rights applied to all of them; it's not like the government could quarter troops everywhere but in upscale houses.
[1]Overall, that is. A couple of the southern states were majority slave. Although it is worth pointing out that, when determining the boundaries of rights, it is pretty uninteresting to say 'slaves didn't have X right'. Because they didn't have *any* rights; a BoR that is in any way cabined by the rights slaves had is no BoR at all. We extended the full panoply of rights to slaves rather than restricting everyone to the (null) set of rights slaves had.
Absaroka — Not conversant with the history of colonial Virginia? You are hung up on slavery. It was awful. That does not mean legal equality among white people prevailed uniformly, or even mostly.
Every time you reply to me, you show the same commitment to a rigidly present minded, and often romanticized, version of history. Given your lack of attention to substantive replies, I don't think you care whether you are wrong about what actually happened in the past.
I'm all ears for the tiniest scrap of evidence that the vast majority of people in the colonies were not free men.
Every time you reply to me, you fail to give any actual evidence of your outlandish claims.
"How dissimilar can a historical be before it loses relevance? And what do we even mean by similarity here?"
The 'how' and 'why' tests, plus a helping of 'when,' as in pre- or post-sentencing.
I guess with the end of summer, our holiday from Blackman’s Real Justices of the Supreme Court reality TV drama is at an end. Back to his vitriol toward the chief justice, trying to manufacture a controversy between him and Thomas.
I have no doubt there is some bad blood about this issue between the two. What Thomas wrote previously in Bruen about on this point was never likely to survive first contact with an actual case controversy, because it was clear from prior concurrences that for these particular situations he was a majority of one. Also, your periodic reminder the Rahimi have waived the issue about which people are most excited about but what not under consideration by the Court: what amount of due process is required before disarming an individual. Rahimi deserved to be disarmed here, his position was weak. People like Blackman shouldn’t pretend his situation overruled Bruen.
Maybe someone can help me with this Salerno stuff because we are all talking past each other.
Suppose a law was passed saying that nobody born in the month of April can possess a gun. Clearly arbitrary and irrational. Is it facially unconstitutional?
Salerno (and now Rahimi) would seem to suggest that as there are SOME people born in April that can be denied possession of guns (many are incarcerated currently) then the statute cannot be facially unconstitutional and anyone born in April must bring an as applied challenge to the law and prove that every possible reason for denying them a gun is inapplicable to them.
That can’t be right. Show me my logical error and tell me how Rahimi/Salerno is supposed to be applied.
ETA: And if I was born in April, but was subject to a Rahimi order, then the "no guns for April babies" law would be constitutional at least as applied to me. Again, that can't be right.
Yes, that is facially unconstitutional regardless of whether some people born in April can be denied possession for various reasons. The law is not an exercise of an enumerated power. We ask, facially, was this law passed pursuant to the Commerce power? Clearly, no. That kind of facial challenge remains valid even where there are hypothetical instances where particular conduct in violation of the statute may have affected commerce under the modern broad reading. We must be able to ex ante tether the law to the enumerated power–e.g., because the subject of the law is obviously commerce-related or because the law specifically addresses the commerce element (like the amendment after Lopez).
Think another way. The “no set of circumstances under which the statute would be valid” test is only one way of evaluating validity. But validity depends on other tests as well. Laws must be passed through bicameralism and presentment; they must be passed pursuant to an enumerated power; an agency structure must accord with the appointment and removal powers; etc. Those all bear on validity and are facial without having to get into application and hypothesizing about various circumstances.
I was wanting to be more general, but lets assume that the law is passed by Congress, bans possession of those guns that have traveled in or otherwise affect interstate commerce, to those born in April.
Facially unconstitutional?
Is there not a general principle that the law has to meet some minimal test of rationality? The law seems simply arbitrary.
A law can be overbroad without being simply arbitrary like "no guns for April birthdays."
Yes. So the law is unconstitutional under almost every test.
But where does the Salerno/Rahimi "no set of facts" test come in? As I said, there are some facts that can be applied (say a guy born in April is on death row) where it is rational and constitutional to deny a particular person who is born in April his Second Amendment rights.
So then the law is not facially unconstitutional. But as I said, that cannot be the correct outcome. But if it is not correct, where did I take a wrong turn on the Salerno test?
The hypo seems academic since the law violates another test.
The "no set of facts" test addresses a law that is not simply arbitrary. At the very least, the two cases address that sort of law.
Is there a case that applies the "no set of facts" case to a law that is simply arbitrary? It appears to me that such a law is inherently bad & leaving it in place has additional problems not in place for an overbroad law generally.
I guess that's my confusion. What makes a law "inherently bad" and outside the Salerno/Rahimi "no set of facts" framework and what features keep me trapped inside of it?
Josh, please explain why 2-year-old precedents deserve compliance more than 50-year-old ones? I think I understand the opinions on both sides of the “penumbra” issue. But one might suppose that you support precedents you like personally more than those you dislike.
I confess I don’t understand why you put the Seder paraphrase in your Harvard Journal article. I like writing catchy lines like that too. But I’m not willing to let you slide what seems to be your equation of ancient and revered holy writ with the Second Amendment. The Torah doesn’t have a built-in modification mechanism, which is probably why 2000 years of Talmudic discussion and debate have been needed to sort things out. For heaven's sake, even the Bishops of Rome have been willing to compromise with change, when many lives and souls are at stake (see, I do like catchy lines).
The Constitution, on the other hand, does have such a mechanism written into it. The Second Amendment is exactly that, an amendment, and it is subject to the same amendment rules as all the rest of it. It is no more holy writ than the Big Book of AA, and unfortunately AA fundamentalists are willing to die on the same never-give-a-inch hill now favored by 2A fundamentalists.
Personally, I don’t think that any book or document laying out a framework of doctrine, rules, and regulations is inerrant and not to be superseded when necessary. Millions of folks hold that the New Testament is a huge amendment of the Old, and the Thirteenth Amendment corrected one of the worst features of Constitution 1.0. In that sense, (and in only that sense perhaps), nothing is sacred.
Because holy texts without any possibility of amendment get out of date, (Fundamentalists would dispute that!) they end up subjected to fairly disingenuous amendment by 'interpretation', as that's the only way they can be brought up to date.
Legal texts capable of formal amendment don't require disingenuous amendment by 'interpretation', they can retain fixed meaning until formal amendment BECAUSE formal amendment is available.
Why, then, do they get subjected to informal 'amendment by interpretation' anyway?
Because formal amendment processes involve gaining the consent of stakeholders who are in a position to refuse to consent to the amendment. The people who want the changes, and are in a position to impose them by 'reinterpretation' often want changes which can't be formally adopted, not because there IS no formal amendment process, but instead because they can't obtain that consent, because other stakeholders don't agree the change is desirable.
Informal 'amendment by reinterpretation' allows them to impose changes over the objections of the stakeholders. You might call it a form of constitutional embezzlement.
You've received countless posts why First Amendment challenges are treated differently. If you're confused, you didn't read them or didn't understand them.
How much does Rahimi turn on the facts? CJ Roberts even qualified his opinion that “based on the facts” of this case it held the temporary disarmament justified.
What if this was a more typical DV case? Two drunken and slap happy domestic partners get an RO against each other for pushing and shoving. A court nonetheless finds that each (or one) presents a “credible threat to the physical safety” of the other.
Under those facts, neither the “going armed” laws nor the surety laws apply because the parties never threatened one another with a weapon. It was not necessary under the law for a weapon to be used, but upheld because of the Salerno standard that since it could be applied in this case, then Rahimi’s challenge failed.
However, what is the likelihood that Roberts, Kavanaugh, and Barrett would see this my way in a proper case? The holding didn’t narrow it to only when a weapon was presented but that simply has to follow from the logic. The Bruen test has been made unworkable because of the insistence by the “NRA-lite” views of these middle three (probably Alito too) that demands some sort of restrictions—without any justification from constitutional materials.