The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Are Laws Restricting Mask-Wearing in Public Constitutional?
[1.] Some places have recently enacted restrictions on wearing masks in public. They generally stem from three related rationales:
- People's wearing masks makes it harder for the police to identify who committed some crime: trespass, vandalism, assault, and more. That's especially true when there are many people wearing the same masks, and a masked rock-thrower (for instance) can feel safe that it will be hard to identify him among the other mask-wearers.
- Because of this, wearing masks can embolden would-be criminals.
- And because of this, wearing masks can therefore be intimidating to bystanders, precisely because the bystanders will think that the mask-wearers might be willing to attack them with less risk of being caught and punished.
Of course, all places have laws that ban trespass, vandalism, assault, and similar crimes. But the premise of the mask laws is that those laws are insufficient, precisely because masking can help evade detection for people who violate those laws.
Such laws have existed for a long time. The 1871 federal Ku Klux Klan Act forbade (and still forbids) people, whether Klan members or not, "go[ing] in disguise on the highway or on the premises of another" "for the purpose of" depriving people of "the equal protection of the laws, or of equal privileges and immunities of the laws." But later laws generally apply without a need for prosecutors to show a further prohibited purpose. Various laws enacted in 1900s, for instance, generally restrict mask-wearing (likewise historically usually motivated by the Klan's behavior, but not limited to the Klan). See, e.g., the 1924 Louisiana law discussed in State v. Dunn (La. 1926), the 1951 Georgia law upheld in State v. Miller (Ga. 1990), and many other such laws.
Here is the most recent such law I've seen, just enacted by Nassau County (N.Y.) (I think this is the version that was finally enacted), though other recent ones are quite similar:
This Legislature finds that masks and facial coverings that are not worn for legitimate health and safety concerns or for religious or celebratory purposes are often used as a predicate to harassing, menacing or criminal behavior.
Therefore, the primary purpose of this law is to prohibit the wearing of masks or other facial covering in public unless such mask is worn for the purposes of protecting the wearer's health or safety or for religious or celebratory purposes.
No person or persons over 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask or facial covering whereby the face or voice is disguised with the intent to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within any sidewalk, walkway, alley, street, road, highway or other public right-of-way or public property or private property without the consent of the owner or tenant.
This law shall not apply to facial coverings worn to protect the health or safety of the wearer, for religious or cultural purposes, or for the peaceful celebration of a holiday or similar religious or cultural event for which masks or facial coverings are customarily worn.
For each exception to this law, a law enforcement officer may require a person or persons to remove the mask during traffic stops or when the officer has reasonable suspicion of criminal activity and/or intention to partake in criminal activity.
Any person that violates any provision of this law shall be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or imprisonment of not more than one year, or both.
But there are other examples as well.
[2.] These laws have been challenged on First Amendment grounds. One common argument is that banning masking can deter unpopular (but law-abiding) speakers from speaking out. The analogy would be to the Supreme Court's holdings (e.g., McIntyre v. Ohio Elec. Comm'n (1995)) that the government generally may not require that speech (e.g., leaflets) include the speaker's name: Such requirements, the Court held, may chill speech by people who worry about "economic or official retaliation" (lost jobs, targeting by government officials even after the demonstration) or "social ostracism."
At the same time, while anonymity in writing may make it easier for people to get away with bad speech (rudeness, libel, fraud, threats), anonymity in one's physical appearance makes it easier for people to get away with bad acts (vandalism, assault, robbery, murder). Such attempts to prevent harmful physical conduct might be seen as more justifiable than attempts targeted at harmful speech.
Another First Amendment objection to the laws is that wearing a mask is itself constitutionally protected symbolic expression, especially when the mask is emblematic of a group or a movement. Yet restrictions that incidentally interfere with symbolic expression are generally permissible (to oversimplify slightly) when they are unrelated to the suppression of that expressive message—for instance, if they are aimed at preventing crime, apprehending criminals, and preventing the menace that stems from fear of crime (entirely apart of the ideological character of the symbolic expression).
Perhaps because of these uncertainties, such laws have sometimes been upheld and sometimes struck down. For examples of cases upholding such laws, see Church of the American Knights of the KKK v. Kerik (2d Cir. 2004) and People v. Bull (N.Y. App. Term 2004) (involving "self-proclaimed anarchist[]" May Day demonstrators). (These suggest that the Nassau County law would likely be upheld, given that New York is in the Second Circuit.) For examples of cases striking down such laws, see American Knights of the KKK v. City of Goshen (N.D. Ind. 1999) and Ghafari v. Municipal Court (Cal. Ct. App. 1978). My sense is that more cases have upheld them than struck them down, but there are respectable numbers on both sides.
[3.] The matter becomes still more complicated when one considers exemptions from such laws.
[a.] The holiday celebration exception, for instance (common in such laws), seems to be justified by the content of expression: The government seems to take the view that wearing a Mardi Gras mask is especially valuable, and thus should be excluded. Likewise, the message of the mask might bear on whether it's a holiday mask at all (e.g., if someone is wearing an Easter Bunny suit on Easter). Such content-based exceptions generally cause laws to be struck down (see, e.g., Carey v. Brown (1980)).
One response might be that masks worn as parts of holiday costumes are excluded not because they are valuable, but because they don't implicate the interest in preventing fear: People may be afraid of someone walking in public wearing most kinds of masks, but not of someone walking in public wearing a Mardi Gras mask on Mardi Gras; the likely benign explanation for the mask will set people's minds at ease.
But the other likely interests supporting the law—the interest in preventing crime and in facilitating the identification of criminals—are just as implicated regardless of why someone is wearing a mask. A court might therefore conclude that the holiday mask exception therefore isn't sufficiently justifiable on content-neutral grounds, and instead flows from an improper preference for speech that conveys a certain kind of holiday-related message.
[b.] The religious exemption is also common in recent laws, and may indeed be mandated under constitutional or statutory (federal or state) rules providing for religious exemptions. And there's reason for it: Some Muslim women feel religiously obligated or motivated to cover their faces in public with a niqab. Some married Hindu, Jain, and Sikh women likewise wear a veil call the ghoonghat (though at least some such veils are relatively sheer, and thus conceal the face less than opaque veils would).
But would the law with such an exemption have any practical value? Or would people who do want to commit crime also be willing to pretend to have religious motivations for wearing a mask? And if the exemption sufficiently undermines the rule, does that mean the rule as a whole may be unconstitutional?
To be sure, masks currently worn by protesters seem to look quite different from traditional religious veils. But if religious-looking masking is allowed, then presumably some protesters can shift to that. And beyond that, the design of religious veils is generally customary, and not fixed by religious law (at least in any way that police officers are likely to be able to identify). Would police officers be able to effectively sort, on the spot, people who have sincere religious objections from people who are just making up the objections in order to be free of the antimask law?
Religious veiling rules generally apply only to women, at least in the religious traditions with which we are familiar. But of course it may be impossible for police officers to reliably tell whether a person wearing a veil is a woman. And of course veil-wearing women can also commit crimes facilitated by the veils.
The Nassau County ordinance does note that police may require a person "to remove the mask … when the officer has reasonable suspicion of criminal activity and/or intention to partake in criminal activity." Presumably that refers to reasonable suspicion of some criminal activity other than just the wearing of the mask (since otherwise the "reasonable suspicion" requirement would be redundant).
But, again, the premise of the law is that the police need extra tools besides the usual criminal laws barring trespass, vandalism, assault, and the like: If fifty people wearing similar-looking outfits with masks are at some demonstration, and one of them throws a rock—but the police don't know who it is—then I doubt they'd have reasonable suspicion of rock-throwing by any particular mask-wearer. And I don't think they'd be able to arrest all the mask-wearers for violating the mask-wearing law, given the exceptions, since they don't know whether one of the exceptions applies.
Now perhaps "reasonable suspicion of criminal activity" means reasonable suspicion of criminal wearing of a mask in the absence of a suitable exception. But how is a police officer to reasonably decide whether the wearer is likely to be entitled to a religious exemption or not?
[c.] This is further complicated by the parallel exception for masks worn "for cultural purposes." If this just refers to the practices of any group, then presumably KKK masks, keffiyehs worn to cover the face, and so on would be worn for cultural purposes: They are a cultural practice of certain subgroups of American whites or of Palestinians. But if those groups don't count, because the "cultural purposes" have to be somehow more broadly shared by a larger culture, then what cultures qualify? And how would police officers be able to find that out?
[d.] Similar concerns may apply to masks worn to protect "health" as to masks worn for religious purposes. People still sometimes wear masks to diminish the risk of infection with COVID or other respiratory diseases—or just to filter smoggy air.
Again, most health-related masks look different from most of the masks that protesters wear. But if a law has an exemption (on its face or as enforced) for medical-looking masks, presumably many protesters might switch to those masks in order to take advantage of the exemption. So, here too, an exemption may practically swallow the rule.
In any event, I hope this helps show the complexity of the matter, and the difficulty of predicting whether courts will uphold these sorts of restrictions.
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It sometimes seems to me that an awful lot of these problems could be resolved by equipping the police with paintball guns. But, of course, not all of them; It would be no help with witnesses.
paintballs was how Walz ordered the police to shoot covid curfew violators on their porches
https://nypost.com/2024/08/13/us-news/cops-enforcing-tim-walzs-curfew-shot-residents-with-paintballs-video/
This is a prime example of why you're known to be a fucking liar.
Nowhere in the article does it actually state Walz "ordered" paintballs to be shot at curfew violators; he ordered the curfew to be enforced.
So even on the rare occasions where you do actually cite your source for something, it's a lie. The logical inference here is that your unsourced "common knowledge" bullshit which you refuse to cite sources for is therefore an even bigger lie.
Go fuck yourself, Joe.
Problems behaving like an adult
see a doctor - get some medication
https://www.goodrx.com/health-topic/mental-health/medication-for-anger
Nothing whatsoever about the fact you lied (again)? Nothing to say about how the article doesn't support your assertion, and that you're just a giant bag of bullshit?
Of course not.
Adults tell the truth. Go fuck yourself, Joe.
See a doctor for your anger management problems
It's a normal human reaction, Doctor, for people to get angry at you for being a pathological liar spreading bullshit without regard for the truth.
So go fuck yourself, Joe.
When are you going to respond to being called out as a liar? Oh, right, truth doesn't matter to you.
Go fuck yourself (again).
U mad?
Yeah. Liars are sub-human pieces of shit, and I caught Joe_dallas in a bald-faced lie (and not for the first time). Instead of trying to claim it was a mistake, or apologizing and admitting his lie, he tries to pretend like people don't have a right to be pissed that he's a giant piece of shit with sociopathic goals.
If you had any integrity, you'd be calling him out too. Funny how you, uh, didn't do that.
I caught you in a few bald-faced lies downthread, so I guess you’re a sub-human piece of shit too.
JoeD:
Yeah, caught in a bald-faced lie and nothing but ad hominem from you in defense. Yes. Lying and spreading misinformation is a transgressive act meant to be counterproductive in two ways: (1) misleading people in an effort to shape their opinions and/or (2) to upset people.
You're a complete dick. An asshole. A moron. Yes, we knew all that. But this comment takes any semblance of a mask off. Fuck you.
So, the police acted on their own as a way to enforce the governor's curfew?
That seems to be his argument: That the police spontaneously resorted to force enforcing the governor's order, but that the decision to use force in enforcing it was unrelated to the order.
Can the police enforce a curfew without using paintballs? Perhaps by say, issuing a citation? Maybe even arresting people? Do those two things require paintballs?
According to pathological liar Joe_dallas, Walz "ordered" police to shoot people with paintballs. By his own 'evidence,' pathological liar Joe_dallas' claim is (wait for it....) a lie.
I think that, when people in positions of governmental authority issue orders to the police to coerce citizens, while they might not have any particular means in mind, they are generally aware that laws are not enforced by sweet reason. They’re enforced by threats of violence, which must frequently be carried out to keep the threat believable.
So, did Walz issue a memo, since memory holed, directing police to shoot anybody they saw sitting on their front porch with a paint ball gun? Perhaps specifying light mauve paint? Eh, probably not.
But he damned well knew and intended that some people minding their own business were going to meet with the business end of a figurative jackboot.
Quit being disingenuous.
Joe's said that Walz ordered the curfew enforced with paintball guns specifically to imply that Walz was enforcing the curfew in an extreme and unusual way.
But Walz only ordered the curfew enforced. The fact that the police's choice to use paintball guns was extreme and unusual solution contradicts Joe's claim that Walz ordered it!!
Hence Joe Dallas is "a fucking liar" and you're trying to cover for him.
I heard Walz actually went down to the Walmart and bought the police the paint ball guns.
I mean if we are going to throw down lies. Might as well be good ones.
Well he did carry one in a War so he should know the ones to get.
Brett, you are a huge part of the problem with these comments. You just knee-jerk defend anyone on your “side” rather than honestly admit: JoeD lied.
Then you can pivot to how you disagree with what Walz did or you think he has some moral blame for the way it was enforced or whatever.
But JoeDallas outright lied. And here you are defending him. Stop being gross and at least strive for a little credibility as an honest commenter. Defending a lie kind of puts you in the same moral/ethical pot as the liar.
Did Walz ever condemn those mass shootings of peaceful citizens being on their own property ? Did he ?
There's a fundamental difference between having the cops use paintball guns on innocent citizens going about their lawful business on their own property, and simply using them to indelibly tag criminals wearing masks while they're engaged in criminal activities, so that they can later be identified.
I mean, they’re both lawbreakers.
I'm skeptical of paintball gun use like this in general, but for Mr. Law and Order here, the difference appears to be that he likes one group and not the other.
He will surely right his ship in order to avoid future condemnation from you!
Great comment!
Rioters are lawbreakers, full on. People sitting on their front porches when the governor lets his dictator freak flag fly? Not so much.
So the laws you like? Break out the paintballs.
The laws you don't like? Paintballs are a travesty!
As befits any authoritarian, it's rule of Brett, not laws.
No, but paintballs aren't warranted for laws that exist only in Sarcastro's head.
Is there a part of " innocent citizens going about their lawful business on their own property" that was unclear?
The curfew prevented people from being in public places.
Read upthread: “paintballs was how Walz ordered the police to shoot covid curfew violators on their porches”
Brett is just ignoring the curfew bit. Because all his oughts are is.
Read more carefully, lest you be dragged again into ~Brettworld~.
Again, the curfew prevented people from being in public places, so people on their front porches weren't lawbreakers.
Again, since you're too dumb to 'get it' despite multiple posters trying to explain it in crayola colors:
Walz did not order any police to shoot anyone with anything. If you wish to take exception to the paintballs used on people on their porch, fine, but take issue up with the fucking police and don't lie about who was responsible for that decision and what their orders actually were.
You know what else stands out about that article? That one could see the "muzzle flash" from the paintball guns.
Do I need to explain how a paintball gun works, or are you barely intelligent enough to see the problem with that claim too?
"Walz did not order any police to shoot anyone with anything."
I didn't say he did, you illiterate fuck.
"If you wish to take exception to the paintballs used on people on their porch, fine, but take issue up with the fucking police and don’t lie about who was responsible for that decision and what their orders actually were."
1. I'm taking it up with the guy who said the people on their porch were lawbreakers.
2. Stop lying about what I said.
"You know what else stands out about that article? That one could see the “muzzle flash” from the paintball guns."
It stood out to me too, but that has nothing to do with anything I said, dumbass.
Other than that, great comment.
You didn't push back at all on the Walz aspect, so I assumed, given your long history of right-wing bullshit, that you were on-board with trying to blame him for it as well. The long list of your fellow Trumpers who have rallied against Joe's claims truly should have informed me of your sincere objection to all aspects of Joe's false story.
I'm so sincerely sorry that I assumed you were still a partisan fuck trying to add fuel to the fake fire. It should have been clear to me, from where you repeatedly called out Joe's false claim that you weren't one of those people this time.
"It stood out to me too, but that has nothing to do with anything I said, dumbass."
Did I quote you? Do you have some kind of narcissism problem where you think everything in a comment must be about something you previously said?
If you like, I'll Venmo you $1 so you can buy a fucking clue: the New York Post is not a reliable source.
"But the other likely interests supporting the law—the interest in preventing crime and in facilitating the identification of criminals—are just as implicated regardless of why someone is wearing a mask."
This seems to irrationally ignore the key element of holiday mask wearing: That there will be a simply enormous number of people about innocently wearing masks on Halloween, or at Mardi Gras, but that these are fairly limited contexts not ordinarily present.
So the government, though it could constitutionally prohibit holiday mask wearing in the interest of facilitating the identification of criminals, (Just as it can do a lot of other things under the general police power.) simply makes a cost benefit decision, and refrains from banning their wearing under the limited circumstances where innocent mask wearing is very common.
The state of New York has spoken twice on the matter of masks and masquerading, with one key case and one statute.
People v. Archibald, 58 Misc.2d 862 (App.Term1968)
New York Penal Law section 240.35(4)
No mention of the possibility that recent laws against mask wearing have been enacted as political statements by politicians hostile to use of masks in public health policy? That didn't even come to mind?
You mean the debunked benefit of masks as public health policy?
Yes, and the better question is was it constitutional to force the public to don masks that provided zero real health benefits. I’m excluding as a benefit the endorphin effect leftists experience when exerting control over the populace
Use this question: Was it constitutional to force the public to follow a public health policy?
What if the public health policy is demonstrably ineffective based on decades of research?
Good news! You're free to be as stupid on the Internet as you want, so long as you make no true threats.
You still do gotta obey local and national laws and regs tho.
Sarcastr0 60 mins ago
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Good news! You’re free to be as stupid on the Internet as you want, so long as you make no true threats."
Good news – there are a bunch of very weak studies showing how effective masks worked. However, Even the most pro-masking studies showed the masks effectiveness was very short lived – a positive trend lasting barely 6-8 weeks. Before calling someone stupid – it would behoove you to actually get up to speed in the data.
Yeah, you’ve long past shown yourself to be a Covid crank so whatever your broad hot takes on the provenance of masking studies (all masks, all at once, I guess?) does indeed fit into being as stupid on the Internet as you want.
I guess it's epidemiology day for Joe_dallas. We'll have to tune in tomorrow to hear his deep thoughts on climate change.
Even epidemiologists are wrong when they disagree with Dave.
Bad news for you. You've admitted there was evidence, however weak it was or you think it was, that masks had some health benefit. Ergo, the local/state laws easily pass the rational basis test. You can think they're stupid policy, but then vote the bums out.
People don't just get to ignore laws/regulations because they disagree with the legislature's or city council's weighing of costs/benefits.
I think the better approach would be to enact rational laws and regulations that are consistent with the constitution. But I can understand why good little Marxists (I know you hate being called a communist so I'm being nice) like to make people obey. What would be the point of having power if you can't control the unwashed peasants?
There was nothing inconsistent with the constitution. Riva-bot just tossing out phrases to bolster a weak argument.
Yes, you would have made different choices if you were in charge. Next up, standing in the rain without an umbrella tends to make you wet.
NOVA standing outside in the rain with a face diaper just makes NOVA a wet idiot standing out in the rain, with a wet face diaper.
Wasn't Nova the mute chick in the first Planet of the Apes? I doubt even she would be stupid enough to think a face diaper protected her from anything. So stop insulting her name.
Riva babbles. The world goes on.
I can see I hurt your feelings. I should treat a lady with more respect. Even one with a face diaper.
“I can see I hurt your feelings.”
It’s cute you pretend I care what you write. I find you mildly amusing, nothing more. You are one of the least interesting commenters here. People call you Riva-bot for a reason.
And, as I recall, you were the one with your little feelings hurt, snowflake.
Now you’re getting hysterical honey.
The reason democrats engage in infantile games trying to dehumanize and belittle their opponents is because they are unable to engage on an intelligent adult level with anyone challenging their world view. That’s why kamala is in hiding. So I respond in the only manner you can understand, you fucking clown.
Riva continues to deflect from the fact that it did not understand the substance of this conversation. Childish insults soon grow tiresome, Riva bot. More wit, please.
Not really sure I understand what you mean but it’s difficult to understand a hysterical woman talking through her face diaper. My points speak for themselves. You don’t like them so, the predictable infantile outburst. If you were actually a lawyer, you’d understand the basic rule of not letting your opponent define the issues. Especially an idiot opponent.
JD Vance endorsed a book by Pizzagate guy that literally called his opponents "unhuman" — that was the title of the book.
That’s a book title. It’s the ideas within that contain the argument. You should try reading it. And the ideas in that book have nothing to do with the targeting and dehumanization called for in Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals that govern democrat practice.
Even unconstitutional ones?
theoretically the masks should have worked. However, that was the theory that did not translate to actual effectiveness in the real world conditions. The pro masking studies did a very poor job of adjusting for confounding variables including behavioral differences.
lastly, what is forgotten/ignored by the advocates of masking is that everyone was going to catch covid eventually and the only long term solution was to develop immunity through the population. Masking could never achieve either.
Theoretically, properly worn medical grade masks, (Such as I had a box of in the garage for use while sanding.) would, in conjunction with a lot of other measures, work. For a relatively low value of "work", anyway. But maybe high enough to have been worthwhile in certain isolated circumstances.
They started out telling us the good masks wouldn't work, in order to save the existing supply for the people they thought should be using them. Why tell a slightly complicated truth when you can trick people into compliance with a lie?
Then they switched over to demanding that people wear purely performative face diapers in lieu of actually functional masks, because all they were actually concerned about at that point was people bending the knee to them, not actually slowing the epidemic, and the face diapers were enough to satisfy that goal.
They started out telling us the good masks wouldn’t work, in order to save the existing supply for the people they thought should be using them.
I don't know who told you that. Fox News? They do think you're stupid.
They told me, at the time, not to run out a get a bunch of masks right away because there was a shortage and they were needed by at-risk groups and medical staff.
"lastly, what is forgotten/ignored by the advocates of masking is that everyone was going to catch covid eventually "
I mean... I've never caught Covid. I know quite a few people who haven't. Is that your big scientific argument?
Have you and the rest of them been tested for antibodies? An awful lot of esp younger people, and kids in particular, caught the virus, never really showed symptoms, and recovered quickly.
No. The virons are an order of magnitude smaller than the hoes in N95 masks, and far smaller than much of what passed as masks, like neck gaiters. Surgical masks can stop moisture, and that means the viron and bacteria carried by moisture. And their medical purpose is to protect patients from such from medical people working on them. So, for COVID-19, masks could protect others from the masker coughing moisture riding virons onto them (at the cost of increasing the viral load on the coughing masker). BUT they do little, if anything, to protect others from virons expelled by presymptomatic and asymptomatic people with the virus, because they mostly expell the virons in an aerosol, which are not stopped by most masks. The easier solution is to just self-quarantine if you are coughing. Besides, there really wasn’t a real good reason to “slow the spread” or “flatten the curve”, after they realized that venting people raised the likelihood that they would die, so the quantity of ventilators available was no longer a critical issue.
Ventilator supply wasn't the only reason to flatten the curve.
lastly, what is forgotten/ignored by the advocates of masking is that everyone was going to catch covid eventually and the only long term solution was to develop immunity through the population. Masking could never achieve either.
Joe! You're so close to figuring it out!
The purpose of masking was never 100% prevention. That's a retarded strawman because no mask is 100% effective.
The purpose of masks was to slow the spread. Even a 1% effective mask will slow the spread... and by a whole lot more than 1% due to the exponential nature of infection.
The purpose of slowing the spread was so that people would get COVID later than they would otherwise. Remember "flatten the curve?" If everyone gets it at the same time, they can't all be treated. Plus, the later you get it, the less severe it'll be (viruses evolve to be less deadly over time) and the more treatments will be available (paxlovid).
Masks saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
RE: The purpose of masking was never 100% prevention. That’s a retarded strawman because no mask is 100% effective.
The purpose of masks was to slow the spread.
>>>>
Hear, Hear !!!
In other words, irrational. Irrational policies are not constitutional.
That's not how the rational basis test works, of course.
That's how it supposedly works, hence the name.
Of course, all of us here know it's actually "Not chewing on the furniture crazy" basis review; The judge passes the law if he can imagine a non-insane basis for the law, even if factually false, and never mind if it was the actual basis for it.
Unless the judge doesn't like the law, in which case he becomes decidedly unimaginative.
Quoting from Justice Thomas in Federal Communications Commission v. Beach Communications, Inc. (508 U.S. 307):
"That’s how it supposedly works, hence the name."
Brett enters the fray to defend the indefensible again.
Lowering the top marginal tax rate from 39.6% to 37% (as did the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act) will not raise revenue as it was promised to do. It was entirely irrational. Does that make it unconstitutional?
No. You don't understand the rational basis test. At all.
I confess I don’t the follow the Ape franchise. Did NOVA end up staying with Charleton Heston? I really hope you don’t try to dress like her, even alone in the dark at home. And even Nova, not a lawyer I believe, would understand if there were a rational basis for a law it would not by definition be irrational, and I didn’t say otherwise you fucking imbeciles.
So, there's legal rational and normative rational ?
Common sense rational puts viruses as non-existent, but rather problems of the liver not filtering properly. Don't tax your liver.
Riva reduced to incoherent gibberish.
You, obviously, are utterly unfamiliar with the rational basis test.
Just realized something, notwithstanding whatever academic standing and credentials of the writers here, the majority of commenters are just fucking stupid, and obnoxious. Or is ignorant better? Yeah, let's go with fucking ignorant. And obnoxious of course.
Those of us who have a clue would probably be less obnoxious if people like you, Riva, wouldn't lean in so hard to the Dunning-Kruger effect. It gets tiresome dealing with people who are so certain they are right, but haven't a fucking clue.
Plus, you tend to just troll. So you kind of get the energy you give.
So, the lady doesn’t like being mocked huh? And really doesn’t like being challenged, especially when she’s wrong. Tough shit. But keep being an ass and we’ll keep playing this stupid game. Unfortunately, democrat supporters only do stupid from what I read in this comments section.
"the lady doesn’t like being mocked huh?"
Were you at some point trying to mock me? lol. I hadn't noticed. I was responding to your whine about people being obnoxious to you and explaining why your feelings were getting hurt. Because you're a moron who doesn't realize you're a moron.
I didn't even register your childish babble about diapers. An insult has to be interesting and have some connection to the reality of who you're talking to in order to have any bite. Update your programming, Riva bot.
Sure you noticed. That’s why each response you make gets more unbalanced and hysterical. Just calm down lady. You’re so frustrated all you can do is parrot weird infantile insults. Like I said, just stop being an ass and maybe we won’t have to play these stupid games. I know, not going to happen.
One thing is clear though. Your pathetic attempts at childish insults does certainly eliminate the possibility of your having any distinguished professional legal background. But you probably have seen a lot of lawyers on tv.
The only one making childish insults is you.
And all to deflect from the fact that you said something incredibly naive about the rational basis test...and with such confidence! Then whined those correcting you were obnoxious. But feel free to continue entertaining yourself. It's all you're good at.
No ma’am. Not deflecting from anything. Nothing I said is incorrect. Not sure what other games you're playing but I'm just responding to your asinine comments. Because you decided to keep being an ass, we get to keep playing this fucking stupid game. To be fair, you probably don’t know how not to be an ass.
Sigh. No, that's not how it supposedly works. Why are you always so confident about a subject you've never studied?
Nieoporon probably shouldn't try to tackle something new until he understands separation of powers. And Nieoporon should also seek professional help for his weird obsession with me. He's like the Cable Guy but just not as endearing.
Calling something "debunked" just because you don't like it dose not make it debunked.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7852241/
That's lame even from you.
The link is to a pre-print, from January 2021 and had not yet been peer reviewed.
Yes. Good catch.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014564118
Tells us again - how many people never caught covid?
Life is path dependent, Joe.
Great job! That beautifully succinct finger wag fully explains what we’ve observed the past 4 years, especially the latter half of those!
Masking DOES work when life follows the exact path that enables them too! Brilliant!
Keep sucking off that strawman Joe!
We never found a silver bullet to stop Covid…but masking and lockdowns and social distancing definitely slowed the spread and saved the lives of people that got vaccinated and boosted. So Hawaii has the near lowest Covid death rate because public health mitigation measures worked….and Arizona has the highest Covid death rate because it was the largest state that did the least mitigation in 2020.
Nope. Wishful thinking. That was the government propaganda. Nothing more. Our government was in the business of buying vaccines to increase the royalties paid to top NIH employees like Fauci, and forcing Mail In voting in the 2020 election, in order to circumvent election security measures.
The data is easily accessible and it clearly shows masks mitigated spread to some degree.
Are you mentally ill?
Because if you squint your eyes just right when you read some article you too can debunk just about anything.
Or just birth a strawman and debunk that!
I’m not sure why THAT would come to mind, after years of massive riots resulting in billions in property damage, where the rioters typically wore masks exactly to avoid identification. Which certainly seems to be a much more obvious and straightforward motivation for anti-mask laws.
"the rioters typically wore masks"
Nobody wore masks, that was AI generated.
Eh, I seem to recall a contemporaneous and therefore pre-AI legit photo of masked rioters.
'Typically' is absolutely not a check Brett can write legitimately, however.
Granted, I'm not going to go out and collect a statistically valid sample. "Frequently" suffices, anyway, to establish the point.
Confirmation bias being a thing, about how many photos are you basing this on?
FWIW, I did a google image search for '2020 riots' and scanned the first 30 or so that:
-included crowds of protesters/rioters (as opposed to a line of cops, a burnt out building with no people, just a TV talking head, etc)
-were sharp enough you could tell whether people were wearing masks (a surprising number were too smoky/dark/grainy to really tell)
I didn't make a precise count, but maybe having maybe 50% or more of the protestors/rioters masked was a majority. It's pretty variable, e.g. from memory of the Portland coverage the line of grannies who linked arms to keep the police from arresting rock throwers or laser shiners ('light mages') might be mostly unmasked, while the rock throwers/laser shiners were almost universally masked. They may be rioters, but they aren't stupid.
This seems recent and widely reported enough that it seems like an odd point to dispute.
Maybe it’s how often in my job I've been rejecting good *sounding* proposals for insufficient evidentiary foundation, but if you’re going to base a policy push on what is typically the case, I need more than a Google image vibes check.
If it’s a constitutional argument, what’s typical or not is immaterial.
Great demonstration of how rigorous you bureaucrats are!
Of course, that's why government policies are always so amazingly successful!
I hope one day that we all can be just like you, and if not then governed by your kind! So rigorous!
Remember that the Minneapolis George Floyd riots were instigated under a false flag operation by a Trump supporting white supremacist.
What would meet your standards for statistical rigor? One can't take notice of rioters wearing masks if you neglected to have scientists with clipboards deployed when the riot started?
And FWIW, I'm not policy pushing - I'm saying that mask wearing was common in news coverage of the 2020 summer of love. If you want to argue it was actually rare, but the media selectively photographed mask wearers, trot out your evidence. For example, if you have a Journolist posting saying 'hey, guys, let's bias coverage in favor of people wearing masks', I'm all ears (although I confess to usually be skeptical of those kinds of theories).
I talk it out with Brett below. Could do some media analysis. Or an expert in law enforcement. Or some intel on the orgs.
I recognize I'm a bit of an outlier in needing evidence, but I'm right - gut instinct based on anecdotes does not cut it, it just insists that it does.
Finally, it is not on me to argue a counterthesis. I need only demonstrate that the thesis is not established.
And remember - the (esp AntiFA) riots were before most of the masking mandates. They weren’t masking to protect themselves from COVID-19, but to prevent facial recognition, and for te I terrorem effect.
You're trying to demand a statistically valid sample, aren't you? Without accepting that the BLM/Antifa rioters frequently went masked. Yes, it's a common practice.
To the extent they didn't go masked, you might consider, they wouldn't have been subject to this law in the first place!
Confirmation bias is a thing; anecdotes are really just a way to disguise vibes.
When making a policy argument, it should be evidence based.
That could be statistics, it could be expertise, it could be inside information.
It's nothing you have provided.
Brilliant!
Of course, everyone who says 2020 protestors wore masks should wait until there is a scientific study that validates the claim before repeating it!
That's what reasonable amd rational people do! They don't make any snap judgements about Leftwing activities until a scientist tells then what to believe!
Any recollection of the images you saw of rioters, or do you edit your memories? You wouldn’t want to rely on your “anecdotal” experiences, a.k.a. your personal observations? No? You only trust “experts?” How do you identify those experts? Credentials? Peer review? You don’t support policies that aren’t supported by “peer reviewed evidence?”
Gaslight0 requires evidence to support anything that contradicts his worldview, and unbounded speculation to assert anything that does.
You might want to consider that almost everybody in the country saw lots of images of the rioters. Those images are burned into people’s memories, and people don’t typically make up hypothetical doubts about what they saw. You prancing around with your questions, as if they are serious, is idiotic.
Hence: Gaslight0. And Douche.
Wanna know how forgiving a person I am? It wasn’t until now, today, that I decided you are, most essentially, a troll. You’re too reckless, too duplicitous, too deceitful to be regarded for the valid stuff you say. Please don’t mistake my remarks going forward as engagement with your arguments; consider that I try to soothe myself sometimes by peeing on trolls, even though that doesn’t actually make me feel better.
I honestly didn't store that information. Didn't care enough. Still don't. I just want people to go with more than vibes, especially when those vibes align with their priors.
Gaslight0 requires evidence to support anything that contradicts his worldview, and unbounded speculation to assert anything that does.
Feel free to call me out when I'm not requiring the evidence I should for some proposition or another. But here again you provide no evidence, just without basis that you're insisting I must have double standards.
The rest of your post is weird fan fiction about me, and namecalling. You do this a lot about me. It's creepy.
"I honestly didn’t store that information."
Some of us did. 'Sarcastro is ignorant of X' != 'X never happened'.
Some months ago I recall posting a comment that the German army in WWII was largely horse drawn. Apparently you were unaware of that - a lot of people aren't. You responded something like 'mind blown'. I found that interesting - here was a factoid that surprised you, and your reaction wasn't 'I demand evidence' or 'that's a lie'. You seemed to realize that for almost all of us our areas of ignorance greatly exceed our areas of expertise. I dunno if you took my word for it, or verified it by researching, but your response wasn't just reflexive skepticism.
That's a good response. I have lost count of how many times I have seen something here, thought 'that's bunk', went looking, and found it was actually true. Here's the kicker: that's true for both things with and without political valence. It might even be even more likely for things with political valence, because sources have less incentive to fib about those.
I think that if you take the time to develop your best estimate of the answer to 'do rioters/protestors commonly wear masks' you will agree they do. I mean, we lived in Seattle for decades, where May Day was a regular event. The inverse 'rioters/protestors rarely wear masks' seems risible. I could respect an answer of the form 'well, I went looking and I don't see many masks'. But the reflexive denial, not so much.
(also, kinda don't get why anyone would argue the point...whether rioters/protestors do/don't wear masks doesn't affect the validity of their actions. Whether the 'Black Bloc' do or don't wear black doesn't change their actions.)
Absaroka: Thanks for a more reasoned, less vitriolic response than mine.
"Confirmation bias is a thing; anecdotes are really just a way to disguise vibes."
Any evidence of this, or is it just vibes?
You want evidence that anecdotal evidence is bad evidence to generalize from?
Ever cracked a stats textbook?
"You want evidence that anecdotal evidence is bad evidence to generalize from?"
That's not what you said.
Any evidence of this, or is it just vibes?
Uh... these comment threads are all the evidence I require.
I know, why not stop escalating simple traffic stops into homicides?
Pretty sure that eliminate both the peaceful and not-so-peaceful.
That is a remote possibility SL. You know that, but cannot resist crazy hypotheticals.
Nico — My point of reference is central Appalachia, where my sister lives. Politically-motivated mask resistance was not a remote possibility there. It was a social norm.
That norm cost a friend of our family her 45-year old husband, who died of Covid while swearing to his wife—a registered nurse—that Covid was no worse than the flu, and that masking was political tyranny.
I understand your point of reference and I am sorry for your loss. But you leapt from that to a political hypothetical without basis.
You will note that I defend mask wearing as a prophylactic measure.
I defend personal observation as a basis for political hypothesis. But I restrict commenting on that basis to the overwhelmingly obvious cases—such as the norm against mask wearing in central Appalachia.
I'm sure some of them are. But look at South Carolina, which had a no-mask law from the '50s to combat the Klan, started enforcing it again like a decade ago during the creepy clown thing, backed off for COVID, then reimplemented it. I'm sure some legislators were motivated by MAGA anti-masking and BLM protests, but others were surely worried about Klan protests and I think everyone can agree that clowns skulking around in the woods is a bad thing.
Exactly how many clowns were actually skulking around?
0?
1?
Hard to say. They never found the ringleader.
You must wear a mask. You must not wear a mask. Make up your damned minds.
Covid, is there anything it can't do?
Events and/or evidence changes, I am quite pleased to see policy get changed or be well tailored to need.
You can caucus with the KKK, for whom there is little empirical evidence of hood-associated wrongdoing.
I am blinded by your brilliance.
I get it.
You don't want somebody wearing a mask in the commission of a crime. I mean, how would you identify them?
But what if that criminal was socially conscious, bought into the hot garbage that some generic mask actually helps prevent the spread of Covid, and wanted to protected his victims from possible exposure and infection?
Surely some compromise can be reached?
This could be important. Feelings are involved here.
Yes, because feelings is the most important thing.
Wait...I think I'm getting a clue...yes...yes...I'm definitely feeling a clue coming on...oh...oh...
Under one situation, 99% of the time someone is committing a crime. On the other, 99% of the time someone is going about their business.
It's all about the odds.
No.
It is all about blindly obeying your masters.
"Are Laws Restricting Mask-Wearing in Public Constitutional?"
What difference, at this point, does it make?
Benghazi wasn’t a terrorist attack…but for some reason Republicans really wanted it to be a terrorist attack. The attackers were under the impression the outpost had weapons and they wanted those weapons which means it wasn’t a terrorist attack.
Another example of "Maybe, but why are we trying to squeeze this into the First Amendment?"
Because the 14th is full.
Several reasons.
1. The judiciary long ago decided to pretend the 9th amendment doesn't exist.
2. As the only amendment in the Bill of rights the Supreme court enforces with significant rigor, everybody wants their rights claim adjudicated as a 1st amendment case.
1 and 2 lead directly to:
3. Force of habit.
This is just your opinion, which not everybody shares.
Yes, I base what I say on my opinions, not yours. Get used to it.
Hey, he admonished you. That's vert powerful and meaningful as he really does that!
He is rigorous and unbiased enough to have opinions, you are not a bureaucrat therefore you are not amd thus cannot have your own. You must wait until the scientists scientifically validate opinions and then DHS gives them to you. It's a matter of National Security, Public Health, and Saving Our Sacred Democracy.
Sarc: "This is just your opinion, which not everybody shares."
+10 ... Insightful
Chew on the sound of this, Sarc: Not everybody shares your opinion.
(Listen very carefully to me. There's supposed to be something here, and you might be missing it. Wait...could it be no more than dickiness?)
"This is just your opinion, which not everybody shares."
Seems like a "No shit, Sherlock" is appropriate here.
Basically, yeah.
(You forgot the possibility of constitutional amendments, which goes to show that that really isn't the solution to anything.)
How would the possibility of constitutional amendments explain why litigation under the current Constitution keeps involving unrelated rights claims being shoehorned into the 1st amendment?
I'm not sure what sort of amendment would solve the problem of the Court ignoring the 9th amendment and underenforcing the rest; Maybe an amendment prefacing each clause of the Constitution with "Simon says,"? Add, "And, PS: We really mean it!" at the end of amendments 1-10?
The judiciary has long protected unenumerated rights though generally used other means than the Ninth Amendment.
So, for instance, there is a reference to "liberty" protected by the Due Process Clause. These liberties not only those expressly enumerated, it reaffirms the 9A principle.
The judiciary in a few cases expressly cites the 9A, including the Supreme Court in cases involving access to the courts (Richmond Newspapers v. Virginia) & privacy rights (Planned Parenthood v. Casey). But, the most important thing is the basic principle.
Thus, the right to raise children, travel, birth control, and other things have been protected even without express enumeration.
Yes, that's why I said that the judiciary pretends that the 9th amendment doesn't exist, rather than saying that they pretend unenumerated rights don't exist. They do occasionally protect unenumerated rights, while almost completely ignoring the 9th amendment itself.
Naturally, if they're going to protect a right at all at the state level, they're going to invoke the due process clause, since they couldn't be bothered to reverse Slaugherhouse and revive the P&I clause. I suspect because the Slaugherhouse case was about the dreaded economic liberty, so explicitly overturning it would risk "Lochnerism".
How does it "pretend" the 9A doesn't exist? They don't expressly say there isn't a 9A amendment. They repeatedly uphold unenumerated rights and assume many more exist.
Upholding the 9A is a curious way to pretend something doesn't exist. They don't expressly cite the 9A itself that much but that is a somewhat ironic complaint.
The specific clause used to channel unenumerated rights in the 14A is neither here nor there regarding the specific concern here -- that it applies to rights not expressly enumerated.
Scalia in McDonald expressed the general issue here -- the Slaughterhouse principle has been in place for over 150 years. Why open a can of worms and start from scratch, resulting in a lot of confusion? Stare decisis and so on.
The Supreme Court is fine with a form of Lochnerism, second-guessing economic policy repeatedly in cases involving the Takings Clause & the "major questions doctrine" and so forth.
Wasn't a principal point of COVID masking that the wearer was protecting not "the health or safety of the wearer," but the health and safety of members of the public that the wearer might infect?
You mean just like getting vaccinated protected the public and not the recipient?
Good sheeples.
Vaccinations help both the recipient and the general public. I'm not sure what's confusing about that.
In the case of a mutating respiratory virus there is no way to quantify that.
Of the 8 billion people in the world, how many got Covid with or without being vaccinated and how many died with or from Covid?
If you chose to get vaccinated that's fine, if you tell me I have to be, so you'll feel safer,
that's not.
Except for the ModRNA vaccines that ultimately, did neither. Fully vaxed and boosted Fauci and Biden have now had COVID-19 4-5 times each.
Ask yourself how immunizing against the Wuhan variant spike proteins would protect yourself against the Delta variant (with maybe 30% cross reactivity) or esp the Omicron variant with less than 10% reactivity? The ModRNA vaccines (which flood the body with quickly obsolete spike proteins) quickly forced the virus to mutate its spike proteins in order to evade it.
“ Vaccinations help both the recipient and the general public.”
You are ignoring the many complications and side effects of the ModRNA vaccines.
The principal point of COVID masking changed and morphed as the official narrative changed and morphed. When one argument got shot down another rationalisation rose to take its place.
Protecting the heath and safety of the community as a reason to quash individual rights is as old as our species. It is not that we are biased against weird old women, we just need to protect the health and safety of the community from witches !
yes the reasons for masking mandates shifted.
The bottom line is masking was never a viable protocol because it could never achieve any viable long term solution. Short term feel good solutions yes, but absolutely no long term solution.
did masking prevent anyone from eventually catching covid ? - No
Did masking confer immunity? No
So what long term solution did masking achieve?
Eventually and immunity are a really dumb framing.
Keeping the population that's sick spikes from being as high, and the lockdown from being as long, was of immense value, even if it's not "long term."
There's plenty I'd have changed both at the time and even more retroactively, but good lord your takes are bad.
No its not - The only long term solution for covid and any other respiratory virus is developing immunity through out the population.
Your diving into wishful utopian bliss with your rebuttals. Further, there is zero historical evidence from any prior pandemic that supports the "spikes" that were used to justify the lockdowns and protocols.
We're never going to get immunity throughout the population, but even if we were ignoring the costs of different paths to get to that goal is a rookie mistake.
As to historical evidence, you appear to be demanding a counterfactual be proven. That's impossible, rendering your own thesis unfalsifiable. It is enough to establish 1) the expected effect of lowering the height of spikes, and 2) The effect of a policy is likely to lower said spike height as compared to not having that policy.
Weren't you the guy who claimed that you cannot count costs for maintaining the status quo in a policy analysis?
The efficacy of lowing the spikes is far from proven.
Have a look at "Epidemic Spreading in Group-Structured Populations," PHYSICAL REVIEW X 13, 041054 (2023), DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevX.13.041054 Subject Areas
"we show that when group structures are sufficiently correlated, e.g., the likelihood for two students living in the same dorm to attend the same class is sufficiently high, outbreaks are longer but milder than for uncorrelated group structures."
I'm not sure how you're generalizing this to masks.
That is because you would rather argue than read. My reference was to “lowering the spiking” or flattening the curve. Not to the general topic of efficacy of masks, which you might have noted if you read my comments in the thread.
And next time read the paper before you select a quote to make a false point.
So-called herd immunity does not protect anyone from ever getting infected. It does dramatically reduce the incidence of contagion by reducing the density of virions in the environment and hence the spread of disease. It does not boost an individual's immune system on the time scale of viral evolution.
In other words, it prevents a pandemic but not you from getting sick.
You have it backwards. Herd immunity does protect the vulnerable from catching the virus. The problem here is that herd immunity was impossible with COVID-19. By the time of the Delta variant, it would have required 70% coverage, assuming a completely sterilizing vaccine, and over 90% with Omicron, based on their known infectivity. But it turns up that the vaccines were far from sterilizing, with significant infection and reinfecting in the vaccinated. As noted above, both Biden and Fauci, both presumably fully vaxed and boosted, have caught the virus at least 4-5 times each. The relevant equations for herd immunity have long been known.
The two spike proteins were relevant in two ways. First, they were unique to the SARS-2 virus. They allowed the virus to attach tightly to Human (and probably only Human) ACE2 receptors. This increased the virus’ deadlines to humans. Secondly, it appears that the replacement of these two spike proteins was likely the core of te Gain of Function research that very likely created this virus. And thirdly, these two spike proteins were selected to be produced by the ModRNA vaccines, likely because they would easily be identifiable by immune systems, because they had to be on the outside of virons in order to attach (then enter) cells. My guess is that the connection between my first and third points is mere coincidence.
Proper use of mask did effectively prevent infection by SAR-CoV-2 virions during the period of use. Whether persons became infected at another time when their nasal mucus membranes and lunds were not protected is irrelevant.
Obviously masks (a mechical device) cannot confer immunity (a biological process).
I have to agree with S-0 that is is dumb framing
Yeah, but how many people not medical professionals had the masks that well fitted, AND wore eye protection, and were careful about using gloves, too?
People who had a brain in their head, read instructions about proper use, and were care not to contaminate the inner surface of their mask.
Even without extreme care and without N-95 quality masks, masking with K-(5 and even surgical masks reduced the probability of infection when a person was indoors with other people
Thank you Don Martinet.
Cite please.
Do your own homework or remain a know-nothing
“Proper use of mask did effectively prevent infection by SAR-CoV-2 virions during the period of use. ”
How do you know that? The early research backing that theory was mostly based on models that assumed droplet dispersal. Yet, presymptomatic and asymptomatic dispersal (and resulting infection) was mostly by aerosols. Much later research questioned your conclusion.
So what long term solution did masking achieve?
I don't know. I do know that sometimes short-term solutions can be quite valuable.
The long term, after all, is nothing but the sum of a bunch of short terms.
There is nothing sinister in evidence, science, official statements, or policy changing over time.
This seems to be the new recieved wisdom on the right - that stuff changed re: covid which is proof it was a tyrannyhoax or whatev.
Haha yeah like when they changed the definition of vaccination! Nothing sinister, just our understanding of what the meaning of it changed! The political benefit was just a coincidence.
You know, they did change the public definition in some places, to stop getting hit with "gotcha's", but anybody with even a modest medical education already knew that vaccines seldom actually prevent infection, and often only slow transmission.
The purpose of the vaccine is to give you immunity comparable to what you'd get if you'd already suffered an infection. Except for a short period after an infection or vaccination, (Known as "sterilizing immunity") all vaccines or natural immunity do is cause your immune system to respond to a new exposure much more rapidly than if naive. Ideally fast enough that you never notice that you've been infected. But, you WILL be infected, and thus theoretically be capable of some degree of transmission, even if exposed to diseases you've had before or been vaccinated for.
Normally these low level infections pass unnoticed because we're not doing mass testing of apparently healthy people using ultra-sensitive tests. Until health authorities freaked out over Covid we didn't, anyway.
"Sterilizing immunity", the so called "gold standard" for vaccines, is naturally a temporary condition of the immune system, when it's still at a high level of alert after having just beaten off a pathogen. It's not sustainable for more than a short while, because it requires so many circulating antibodies to pull off that if you had it for everything you're immune to, you'd have blood as thick as molasses.
So, I'm asking you, please, stop hammering on this. There's nothing really dark or dishonest going on here, it's just common medical knowledge that those in the know never had to discuss with normies, and so most people got fed an over-simplified idea of what vaccines do.
Except that you only got immunity to the two Wuhan variant spike proteins with the ModRNA vaccines. No whole virus immunity whatsoever. And probably as a result of those vaccines, the virus quickly mutated its spike proteins around the vaccines. The bad part is that the immune system over overimprinting on the Wuhan variant spike proteins likely adversely affected the ability in many to develop full virus immune memory. Before the spike proteins mutated sufficiently, the vaccines probably did prevent infection. After that? Boosting likely did more harm than good.
"And probably as a result of those vaccines, the virus quickly mutated its spike proteins around the vaccines."
That's not at all how that works.
Ok. You need to be a bit more specific. What is your complaint?
I am proposing that it was good old evolution and natural selection that pushed the virus to mutate so that its spike proteins differed enough from the (Wuhan variant) spike proteins produced by the ModRNA vaccines. Changing the virus’ spike proteins provided an evolutionary advantage because these later variants reduced, then almost eliminated, the immune response to these later variants by the immune systems of those who had been vaccinated with these ModRNA vaccines. The vaccines didn’t cause the mutations, of course, but merely helped determine the direction of the successful mutations. The SARS-2 virus is a fairly simple respiratory RNA virus (similar in that respect to flu viruses) with a straight forward and robust infection mechanism, that allows it to successfully mutate frequently. The mutations were happening anyway. Thus all the variants and sub-variants. The vaccines just helped decide the direction of the most successful mutations.
Where did I go wrong there?
Just a reminder. The way that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines worked was that when the genetic code for the (original) Wuhan variant SARS-2 virus was decoded, a small segment of the virus was selected – the two spike proteins that are used to attach to cells, before the virus entered them. They are thus a fairly visible (to the immune system) part of the virus. They then developed an RNA sequence to generate the two spike proteins, looped it so it would keep generating them, switched the Uridines for N1 Pseudouridines (another story), inserted them in a capsid, and they had their vaccine. Operation Warp Speed. Much of the preparatory work had been done earlier, and all they really needed was the genetic sequence for the virus, which the Chinese kindly provided us.
What most didn’t know, at the time, was that it was those very same spike proteins that they had inserted in their Gain of Function research (very likely in one of their Wuhan virology labs, which maybe why they were so quickly able to decode the RNA) that almost assuredly created the SARS-2 virus. The Gain of Function likely sought was an increase in lethality, and they did that by making the spike proteins bind esp tightly to Human ACE2 receptors. The good news there is that as the virus mutated away from the original Wuhan variant, the spike proteins changed, and that meant that they didn’t bind as closely to Human ACE2 receptors, reducing the lethality of the virus. Of course, it is quite common for mutating viruses to become either more infectious, and/or less lethal, in order to win the evolutionary contest against other variants. For the most part, that was exactly what happened with the later mainline variants – more infectious and less deadly. But by then, there was almost no cross reactivity between the antibodies generated fighting the spike proteins generated by the vaccines and the later variants, like Omicron.
The joker here is that MRNA vaccines are painfully simple to update, it's one of their virtues. If they'd been trying to be sensible, they'd just have updated the sequence used in the vaccine to track the prevalent variants, in close to real time.
But when Trump left office they jettisoned the warp core, so to speak. Updating the vaccine would have had to have been done through the old, slow process, so they just doubled down on the increasingly obsolete version.
Protecting the heath and safety of the community as a reason to quash individual rights...
This is the funniest part of the whole conspiracy theory! What, exactly, do you imagine mask mandates were a slippery slope towards? Top hat mandates? Suspenders-and-a-cane mandates?
Like, I get what Jan 6 was in service of. What, in your imagination, were mask mandates in service of?
Yes, why?
Mark Regan: Wasn’t a principal point of COVID masking that the wearer was protecting not “the health or safety of the wearer,” but the health and safety of members of the public that the wearer might infect?
That was, indeed, the reason I wore a doubled bandana over my mouth during the pandemic…to reduce the exposure of others to my respiratory emissions. Here’s a great 90 second video that documents the aerosolization of respiratory fluids in normal speaking (particularly Ps, Ts and Ss [pees, tees, and esses]) and sneezes.
Bandanas did nearly nothing, either double or single
Did you watch the video? I'm quite sure you are incorrect that the bandana did nothing. I believe that 90%+ of the droplets coming out of my mouth were either caught by the bandana or dramatically slowed in their ejection.
Yup, bandanas stop your spit which does not travel far but they do nothing to attenuate the aerosols which are the main way that the virions propagate.
The masks really don’t stop the aerosols. Just viron carrying water droplets. So, if you are coughing, they provide a definite benefit. But if you are presymptomatic or asymptomatic, where the virons are exhaled in an aerosol, then much less. And, as others have pointed out here, if you are coughing, you should be self quarantining.
The two layers of fabric create an air baffle that in turn creates a turbulent air layer that makes it very unlikely that any but a very few, very small particles will get “shot” out into the air beyond a few inches. Almost all the aerosol gets caught in the turbulence, and any/most particles more dense than air will start falling to the ground within a couple of feet. (Distancing myself from others by at least a few feet was also essential in my theory.)
I never saw evidence that the finer virion-containing aerosol droplets, the ones so light as to be buoyant in air, were a significant mechanism of transmission. Can you point me to literature that showed such fine aerosols were a significant mechanism of transmission?
"That was, indeed, the reason I wore a doubled bandana over my mouth during the pandemic…to reduce the exposure of others to my respiratory emissions."
So you thought that you'd stand up in the name of freedom by being dumb?
That...nevermind, that's entirely appropriate for you. Congratulations on having such little regard for your fellow citizens, asshole.
See my comment above. I believe you are quite wrong. But I surely have so much less regard for my fellow citizens than you do, Jason. You are my hero, Jason...a model of contemporary humanism, caring and compassion for others.
I'm sure your retarded-cowboy method works just as well as you claim, which must be why surgical masks, N95/KN95, and other devices are used instead of your brilliant solution.
N95 masks, in particular, if worn properly/snugly, provide substantial protection against inhaling virion-carrying particles. I believe that, by that mechanism, they provide significant protection against contracting COVID-19 (and a whole lot of other pathogenic stuff).
But I wasn’t trying to protect myself from getting COVID-19; I was trying to reduce the likelihood I might transmit it to others should I become infected and communicable. For that purpose alone, I believe my techniques of mouth-covering and distancing were likely to have significantly attenuated my role as a potential vector.
Of course, I can prove little of this. But in the absence of certainty, I think there's much to be said for reasoned examination and analysis.
And I'll add that simply doing what the government or "experts" tell you to do is not a substitute for common sense, and sometimes woefully unhelpful.
By removing the qualification of wearing a mask in the furtherance of a crime, the entire law becomes both impossible to enforce and a downright threat to individual liberty.
I wrote software for 49 years, and we saw this same defect many, many times in requirements documents and specifications. What you limit is just as important as what you allow.
So are we going to tell cancer patients and other people with suppressed immune systems that they can't wear a mask when they go out (to the extent that they are able to) because A) masks don't work, and B) the law says you might knock over a convenience store if you are allowed to, and C) that law really pisses libs off and we really love anything that pisses libs off.
For decades when I was traveling around on business in international airports I would see people wearing masks in the airport concourses. Long before Covid. They would do so to avoid transmitting some fever virus to other passengers. This act of minor inconvenience to themselves was never regarded as a political statement and was never regarded as a threat by airport security.
It was simply a widely accepted gesture of common decency adults in public were expected to have.
Such decency appears to be absent in too many American sectors. I'll refrain from mentioning which ones.
"They would do so to avoid transmitting some fever virus to other passengers."
If someone knows they are infected with a transmissible disease then they should self quarantine rather than going about their business wearing a mask.
I'm sure you follow your own advice and never leave the house with a cold.
Equating a common cold with Covid is a stretch but depending on how bad it was I'd probably stay home for a day or two.
Hard for me to say because I can't remember the last time I had a cold and I've only had the flu once (Hong Kong 1969) right after I got a flu shot.
Haven't had a flu shot since.
Don't move the goalposts, the comment you replied to was explicitly pre-Covid, ie, a cold or a flu.
So, if someone had a mild cold or flu do you think they should be allowed to wear a mask in public without getting a doctor's note?
If they were recently visiting someone with a cold or flu and now have a scratchy throat (that might be nothing), should they be allowed to wear a mask in public?
"Please, sir, won't you wear this totally useless mask as a gesture of your common decency?"
No.
And there you have it, folks.
Adopting minimal standards of decent behavior: Rejected.
Acceptance of settled science: Rejected.
What political candidate does he support: I said I would refrain but it is obvious.
What he won't do: Next time a doctor performing surgery on you, just till him/her that he doesn't have to wear a mask. Because they are useless.
Yes. When they are stupid.
After a long trip from AZ up through NM, CO, WY, and ultimately, MT, almost home, we stopped for the night in Missoula. Masks were few ad far between by then, and no one, even in CO, was enforcing the mandates. Unfortunately, we stayed in a dump close to campus. Went to the Albertson’s by campus for beer. A middle aged guy, in a mask, got in my face about not being masked. Was he Vaxed? Yes. So was I. Weren’t the vaccines supposed to be effective (by then they really weren’t - but I hadn’t figured that out yet)? If we were both safe from the virus, then why did we need to be masked around each other? Because the authorities told us to! What we call Sheeple.
Hayden — That comment pretty much disqualifies the rest of your pretense to epidemiological insight. That plus your evident reliance on bad media, and absurd claims about Biden and Fauci getting Covid 4 or more times apiece.
Presumably you read Fauci's book, and dismissed it all as a pack of lies, right?
As a practical matter, it would take a pretty clueless ne'er do well to not claim their mask was for covid protection. Maybe you could dispute that for a Guy Fawkes mask, but even then I bet the defense could find material from the first few months of covid that was saying any kind of mask at all was a benefit.
Would adherence to the Church of Guy Fawkes provide a religious exemption for wearing such a mask? Asking for a friend ...
I tend to think so. When evaluating whether your religious beliefs are sincere, my criteria is whether you can articulate them without breaking down laughing.
Your judge or jury may have different criteria, though.
People are acting as if this was something new. 30 years ago when I went to cash my paycheck, I had to remove my hat and glasses before entering the Bank. I didn't mind the hat, but, the glasses were a pain. They were the self-darkening type prescription glasses. I had to wait just inside the door until they lightened and I could put them on to see.
This wasn't the Bank's policy, this was City Law thanks to the hoodie, dark glasses crowd who was robbing banks. They went to the glasses and hoodie, because, the City banned masks.
Yes the wearing of masks during COVID was a joke. I wonder if anybody is doing an honest study on how many people were infected BECAUSE of them?
"Yes the wearing of masks during COVID was a joke."
The joke is your simplistic criticism of proper use of well-fitting masks.
"well-fitting masks"
Unicorns.
Most people's masks were not "well-fitting".
The silly face diapers my employer issued, (Day of the week printed on them, to make sure you were swapping them out.) were a joke so far as disease transmission is concerned, but my wife still uses them when reducing dried hot peppers from our garden to flakes in the food processor.
Best use of face masks!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8356887/Artist-wears-bikini-surgical-masks-protest-COVID-19-lockdown-Los-Angeles.html
Ha! Ha! Ha! Best my wife does is use them to hold her hair in a pony tail. I keep buying 50 packs of hair rubber bands, and she keeps losing them. Almost daily, it seems. I sometimes can’t keep up. She also frequently uses them for a runny nose or spit. Better than my shirt.
Hayden — She's doing that with N-95 masks?
Indeed. I needed to travel quite a bit during the pandemic. While transitioning through multiple airports, I never saw a well fitted N95. Masks ranged from the useless to the ridiculous. (Well, honestly I did see one person with a full on gas mask.)
The full extent of the silliness struck me in Denver when the United check in made me remove my N95 which was strange to them so that I could wear the required and useless surgical mask. I didn't get Covid, so perhaps their shamanism worked.
I made the very same observation in airports. What that proves is that people scoffed at the directives and did not care about the consequent risk to themselves or others.
Few people wore N-95 masks. But KN-95 masks give good protection.
No surprise to you, I would occasionally cough over them, standing in line. My cutoff is about 60. Above that, they may have legitimate health concerns. My wife often wears a mask at the airport for just that reason. It has little to do with COVID-19, but rather about everything else people at airports are suffering from.
Artifex — If you ever encounter that problem again, like maybe during a future pandemic, just patiently explain to whatever idiot is endangering you that your doctor requires that you wear the N-95 and no other. I discovered midway through the worst of the pandemic that doing that works every time and everywhere. But you may have to shift gears abruptly, from patient, to defiant and obstinate, to make them give up. I had to do that a lot:
“I am sorry, I wear this mask because a medical condition requires it. My doctor says that if I wear any other mask in public it will endanger my life, so I cannot do what you demand. If you continue, my doctor has told me he can explain to your superior. Can you tell me your name, please?”
That worked every time for me. Just deliver the line with confidence, and at the first appearance of hesitancy do not wait to hear a counter-argument, just turn and walk away. I had to do that probably 5 times. It never failed.
That was their stupidity for not paying attention to how to use a mask.
I’ve run the numbers and I spotted the Tennessee anomaly. How could I have spotted the TN anomaly if my analysis was incorrect?? So my analysis said Kentucky should have a higher Covid death rate than TN because KY has higher poverty…but the fact KY had a pro-masking governor during Covid meant KY should end up with the lower Covid death rate. Except TN had the lower Covid death rate and at the time I point out this anomaly. And then one day TN added thousands of Covid deaths in a single day and then TN had the higher Covid death rate…so it turns out I was right.
It will often turn on what sort of "masks" we are talking about.
The masks used for COVID and other medical conditions are not the same sorts of masks that anti-masking laws traditionally have addressed. Those masks, for instance, were more complete coverings such as those used by the KKK.
The purpose of the masks will matter. Religious liberty provides a strong interest for some women to have the right to wear complete coverings (some in my area do so). Health reasons also. A doctor's note or the like can be used as a defense.
People can argue there is a free speech interest to protest using masks. The balance there for public safety favors allowing masks for holiday occasions such as Mardi Gras or Halloween.
A mask law can be applied to entering a bank or to those who physically threaten others. The hardest case will be using full facial coverings in marches or the like.
Yes - but the real issue here is using these laws against AntiFA, Black Block, etc, who were rioting and burning down many parts of Blue America during the summer of 2020, and very possibly in the coming months. Definitely again, if Trump wins. They used masks for exactly the same reasons that the Klan did - anonymity. Masks, goggles, and a hoody likely do a pretty good job of foiling facial recognition.
I saw a guy the other day, wearing a black hoody, black mask, dark sunglasses, and a backpack, entering a store. Asked the store security guy if that looked suspicious. He didn’t respond, of course, but he did have his eyes on the guy.
So, yes, I am the suspicious type. And, I was suspicious about the timing of the mask mandates, that really got going that fall. Maybe it was coincidental. But the same politicians who effectively green ignited the violent riots and protests, were the same ones imposing the most draconian mask mandates I the ensuing months.
"wearing an Easter Bunny suit on Easter" -- For some weird reason, the character of Susie the Bear from "Hotel New Hampshire" leapt into my mind. If I were her lawyer, I'd argue that her bear suit was a working condition requirement at the hotel, as well as her normal off-duty attire, and not worn with a purpose to disguise her identity.
I'm more comfortable going outside when everyone is wearing a mask, because it saves me the embarrassment of not being able to recognize people. If I were clever, I would carry a mask around with me in my pocket for such anxiety reduction purposes.
I can sympathize; I can instantly recognize faces, but asking me to connect names to them is a bridge too far, unless I see them quite frequently.
When you were 18 the drinking age was probably 18…but it was 21 in 2020 and so masking was good for underage drinkers.
I've never been able to connect. It was the one time i didn't feel life was passing me by, alone.
I've trained my children to mock the Covidians who still mask.
Public shaming can work.
Your kids are so lucky. Who else do you encourage them to mock?
I for one am looking forward to the day when sports mascots, Disneyland character performers and assorted advertising billboard mascots will be rounded up and locked away. Oh, and Batman, him too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Greater_Pittsburgh_bank_robberies
Who needs masks in the commission of a crime.
Surely everyone knows that rubbing one's face with lemon juice prevents cameras from recording one's facial image.
So, everyone going about in public must be knowable ?
Paranoids demand everyone must be known or knowable in public.
What about wigs and make up or bearded women ?
How about banning clothes altogether ?
You make a good point there. I would like to say that facial recognition, and the like, should only be used when the anonymity of masking were being used to catch miscreant and people using the masks to commit crimes with some impunity. And, indeed, that was what was the apparent goal of the old masking laws, and how they were enforced. They might arrest the guy in a white hood and robes, but not bother the senior citizen wearing a medical type mask, leaving te doctor’s office. But we know that the government rarely stops there, at least anymore. Facial recognition is becoming almost ubiquitous, much of it by the government. And we recently saw
Geofencing by the federal government for everyone anywhere near the Capital on 1/6/2021 successfully, so far, challenged, on numerous Constitutional grounds. In China, their government already tracks everyone by both facial recognition and by their cell phones. Are we next?
One response might be that masks worn as parts of holiday costumes are excluded not because they are valuable, but because they don't implicate the interest in preventing fear:
Conversely, if an interest in preventing fear justifies a ban on mask wearing in public, it might also justify a ban on carrying guns in public—especially if for no particularized reason to suggest special danger for the gun carrier. If fear justifies a presumption to prevent a masked person's potential violence—such as attacking opponents at a political rally, or mugging a stranger on the street—the same principle ought to justify more strongly a ban to preclude the greater violence which a gun enables.
With that as premise, what should be done legally about the case of a person who wears a mask to prevent infection during a pandemic, while carrying a gun for no particular reason?
Carrying a gun is expressly protected by the constitution; wearing a mask isn't. HTH.
And besides, the problem with the mask wearing in public isn't that it causes fear, though depending context it might. It's that it makes identifying criminals difficult.
That's WHY under the right circumstances it causes fear, after all: People under those circumstances rationally infer that the mask wearer is wearing it to avoid being identified while committing violent acts.
Nieporent — Carrying a gun in public has never been expressly protected by the Constitution. That argument has been made only by historical inference, with the inferences derived using execrable (laughable, ridiculous) historical research methodology.
For the sake of argument, it would be possible to use high-standard academic historical research methodology to address a question whether constitutional reliance on history and tradition would justify banning most public carrying of firearms. It would. And arguments from the fear that public gun carrying creates would figure heavily in that historical result.
I mean, you could try reading it. We can talk about how qualified or unqualified the right is, but it's expressly in there.
Sorry Nieporent, but I have to insist. There is an amendment. It says stuff, but not that.
Prior to Heller, even the legal consensus was firm, and on my side. Heller did nothing to change the historical record, except to distort it among the legal community. That is not a quibble about legal reasoning; it is a salient historical point.
American history—like the English history from which it descended—abounds with examples to show a legal norm to ban gun carrying in public on the basis that to do it put bystanders in fear.
However, the analysis is not simple. American court records—from the immediate pre-founding era back to the early colonial period—supply a profusion of legal distinctions among persons, based on social class, personal familiarity in the community, personal reputation, religious status, race, and of course subordinate status for slaves, and in some times and places for indentured laborers.
In short, the law of the colonies during the founding era was, as a practical matter, that George Washington could pack a couple of pistols in his saddle bag, and go anywhere without fearing legal consequence. That was far from uniformly true for other people. The notion of one law for everyone went broadly unrecognized long ago, and it isn’t even uniformly applied today.
Because of that customary non-uniform standard—which was not just a standard of law enforcement, but actually a standard of legal interpretation—it is actually impossible to conclude historically that any single interpretation of the 2A was ratified alike everywhere. What Pennsylvanians thought they ratified was anathema in Virginia and North Carolina. On gun rights questions, as on many others, there is no such thing as an original public meaning.
Instead, it is possible to conclude reasonably from the historical record that the founders ratified the 2A solely for a militia purpose, upon which all the states agreed. But then left all other questions respecting firearms—which is to say the questions upon which the states disagreed—including questions about the law of self-defense—to the discretion of individual states. Those the states adjusted according to their own norms, and eventually according to their own constitutions.
I am sure you know better than I what to make of that record in terms of modern law—except with regard to law which purports specifically to rely upon history and tradition. I do not think you understand enough about historical method to speak on those questions. What I think that record means for the 2A in terms of history and tradition, right down to the present, is that there is no federal right protected by the Constitution, except the militia right.
Other guns rights exist, and have long existed. They remain defined variously among the states. Gun carriers everywhere ought to quit reliance on a federal right to self-defense, which is supported nowhere in the historical record prior to Heller. They ought to rely instead on their states for vindication of all the other gun rights they seek to claim.
If that does not happen, I expect continued insistence on originalist interpretation to result eventually in the overturn of Heller and all its progeny, on the basis that they were egregiously mistaken as a matter of history. Of course that would not be a legal result, or even a strictly historical result, so much as a political one. Which is to say, it would be a match for the method which put Heller on the books in the first place.
"In short, the law of the colonies during the founding era was, as a practical matter, that George Washington could pack a couple of pistols in his saddle bag, and go anywhere without fearing legal consequence."
And slaves couldn't, so we agree on the facts.
Your argument seems to be 'if colonial governments could restrict slaves in some way, then modern governments can restrict everyone in that way'.
I'm not going to get on the back of that bus. I think we should treat everyone like George, instead of treating everyone like he treated his slaves.
"They ought to rely instead on their states"
Do you also object to incorporation of the first, or fourth, or eight amendments?
Absaroka, the case of slaves is an example incidentally supportive of a much broader historical argument, capable to stand on its own without the slave example. Not only were slaves incapacitated from carrying arms at will, but in many, many instances, so were non-slaves, ranging from suspicious-looking strangers to a community, upward to a long list of leading community citizens who happened to be on the outs with authorities.
I made the argument in outline above. You ignored the larger argument.
And by the way, the larger argument stretches back centuries through English jurisprudence, sweeping right through explicitly worded guarantees of a right to arms. Those were in practice during most times and in most places understood customarily to apply only to a small minority class of the privileged, and not at all to the vast majority of people who worked for wages, such as farmhands or urban laborers.
As for incorporation, I always thought that term legitimately referred to a process by which prior meanings inapplicable to the states were thereafter applied against them, with the meanings unchanged. I do not think it legitimately implies updating and changing the prior meaning in the process.
Absaroka — Note also that the mode of your reply is to posit that history ought to be mined for justifications suitable to guide present policy. That inclination is among the most prolific sources of historical errors—errors which are perforce built in whenever that argument is attempted.
The only mode of historical inquiry which has any chance to deliver accurate inferences about the past is one which attempts no more than to say what happened then.
"no more than to say what happened then."
Precisely so. And "George Washington could pack a couple of pistols in his saddle bag, and go anywhere without fearing legal consequence".
Absaroka, if you intend to concede my point, you have to do it fully. Otherwise you are not intending, you are pretending. In many historical times and places, magistrates read the law to say Washington could do that, and folks like you could not.
If you intend that as support for a proposition that today everyone is entitled to be like antique George Washington, and not like antique you, then that is one of the historical errors I mentioned, stemming from trying to mine modern utility from historical research.
"In many historical times and places, magistrates read the law to say Washington could do that, and folks like you could not."
Which of the colonies was that? As opposed to the ones where owning arms was mandatory.
Absaroka, in which colonies so you suppose owning arms was mandatory, at all times, and all places? I can tell you the answer without even checking—in none of them. You will not find even one colony where as a practical legal matter all persons (by which I mean only adult white males) were required at most times and nearly all places to own arms. So what should you conclude when exceptions vastly outweigh the principle you espouse?
Hey, Stephen!
I missed where you listed the colonies where you believe arms carry was generally forbidden, can you repeat it?
"owning arms was mandatory, at all times, and all places"
As you know, a requirement for adult males to own a suitable firearm and ammunition, and muster with it when called were common. On the frontiers, like western MA, men might be required to come to church armed (following some Indian attacks at churches). You could quibble that the requirement was not to own a firearm - in theory I suppose you could rent one every Sunday.
You're mistaken.
"Wear the Damn Mask!!!" (Parkinsonian Joe Biden, former POTUS)
I've lost track on how many times Joe had the Vid', and how many of you Knuckleheads got the latest version of the Jab?
Frank