The Volokh Conspiracy
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Why the Biden Administration Was Wrong to Suspend the CNVH Immigration Parole Program for Migrants From Four Latin American Nations
The program allows Americans to sponsor migrants Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Haiti. The Administration suspended it based on extremely dubious concerns about fraud.

Last week, the Biden Administration Department of Homeland Security temporarily suspended the CNVH (AKA "CHNV") migrant sponsorship program, because of concerns about fraud. In an article for Reason, Cato Institute immigration policy experts David Bier and Alex Nowrasteh explain why this is a terrible decision:
President Joe Biden's Department of Homeland Security (DHS) paused a key component of its immigration agenda last week, which allowed immigrants from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela to enter and work legally in the United States. Known as the CHNV parole process, this program has helped reduce illegal entries by hundreds of thousands since its launch. DHS should restart the CHNV program immediately.
CHNV has provided an important lifeline for migrants fleeing the horrors of totalitarian socialism and communism in Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela, as well as the endemic chaos of Haiti. This process offers a lawful and orderly way for migrants to pursue the American dream. As these countries spiral further into political and economic dysfunction, CHNV has become more important than ever to prevent chaos at the border.
Under the CHNV process, immigrants required sponsorship from U.S. citizens or legal residents to lawfully enter the United States. DHS has halted the program in response to an internal report that allegedly found evidence of sponsor fraud. In fact, all it shows is the agency's anti-fraud directorate's ineptitude at analyzing big data.
Until now, nearly all immigration applications were filed on paper. For the first time in its history, DHS required all CHNV parole applications to be filed online, resulting in a monstrous data file of 2.6 million records. The agency's Fraud and National Security Directorate (FDNS) apparently took its first stab at assessing "potential fraud indicators" within it.
FDNS found blank entry fields, phone numbers that don't work, zip codes that don't exist, strange street addresses, Social Security numbers associated with dead people, repetitive text and repeat filers, and other similar anomalies. FDNS concluded that these issues indicate fraud.
But those oddities and errors are not evidence of fraud—they are part and parcel of large administrative datasets, especially those compiled by the government. Fraud involves intentional deception, deliberate misrepresentation, or omission by applicants to obtain benefits they do not qualify for. These issues are more likely due to changing circumstances between the time when the forms were filed and the FDNS analyzed them, copying-and-pasting between different types of electronic documents, and simple human error.
Finding mistakes like this in big data is absolutely normal. For starters, statistically, some sponsors have certainly died since filing their sponsorship applications. The bigger issue is that when 2.6 million people fill out a form—sometimes on behalf of a relative or client—errors such as transposing numbers and letters, writing their mailing address when they should write their physical address, or mixing up mailing and physical addresses are inevitable.
Errors can be introduced precisely because of the shortcomings of DHS's new online filing system. As one of us learned firsthand when sponsoring someone, DHS's system purges application drafts after 30 days. This means many applicants draft their responses on paper or in a separate electronic format and then paste the responses. This inevitably results in some answers being accidentally duplicated or put in the wrong field. These shortcomings can be easily understood as honest errors instead of fraud.
FDNS also inaccurately interprets repeat applications from sponsors as indicative of fraud. Yet the CHNV parole process explicitly allows sponsoring multiple applicants. Even when all the beneficiaries are from the same family, DHS requires the sponsor to submit separate applications for each person. Of course, there will be repetitive text and repeat filings—DHS mandates it. It's as if FDNS looked for evidence of fraud in the CHNV's data before understanding how CHNV works….
DHS should not overreact to the illusions of fraud inherent in big datasets. Any actual instances of fraud should be addressed through the agency's normal procedures, targeting individual fraudsters or reforming paperwork and electronic filing procedures and audits….
CHNV was the most novel and important part of Biden's immigration agenda. To undermine it now would be a catastrophic mistake that could undermine American border security, reduce the economic gains from immigration, and impose huge humanitarian burdens on migrants fleeing totalitarian socialism in Latin America and the Caribbean.
I would like to take this opportunity to expand on Bier and Nowrasteh's well-taken points a little.
First, as a sponsor in the Uniting for Ukraine program, which is very similar to CHNV and requires largely the same forms, I can testify from personal experience that the submission process can be clunky, and it is easy to make mistakes, especially if you are submitting multiple applications. I warned about this problem early on; in a January 2023 article generally praising U4U, I noted a few shortcomings, including that "[t]he program could… be improved by further simplifying the paperwork, some of which I found confusing and duplicative." My impression is that this flaw has actually gotten worse, as forms have become more complicated over time.
It's important to keep in mind that most would-be sponsors are not lawyers and legal scholars (like me) or immigration policy experts (like Bier and Nowrasteh). Most don't have the same familiarity and comfort level with legalistic bureaucratic forms. Some are recent immigrants themselves. Thus, it's easy for them to make inadvertent errors. That likely accounts for much of what FDNS found here.
Second, Cuba and Venezuela are facing intensifying repression, in the latter case because of the government's to suppress protests against it's recent falsification of election results. Conditions in Haiti and Nicaragua are also awful. It is wrong to close the door to migrants fleeing horrific oppression and violence merely because of flimsy suspicions about fraud by some sponsors (as Bier and Nowrasteh note, DHS has no found no evidence of wrongdoing by the migrants themselves).
Third, as Bier and Nowrasteh note, the CNVH program plays a valuable role in reducing disorder at the border; it could be much more effective if the administration lifted the arbitrarily low 30,000 per month cap on participation (which is the total for all four countries combined). Bier and I expanded on this point in greater detail in a USA Today article. If the Administration wants to keep the number of illegal border crossings down, it should restart CNVH and expand it.
Finally, it's worth emphasizing that CNVH participants, like most other migrants, are an asset to the US, not a burden. They make valuable contributions to our economy, and reduce the federal budget deficit.
I do have one small disagreement with Bier and Nowrasteh: they advocate imposing a $575 fee on CNVH sponsorship applications. I oppose that for reasons explained here, in response to a similar proposal by Daniel Di Martino of the Manhattan Institute:
Social science evidence suggests that even modest bureaucratic obstacles can significantly reduce participation in various programs. Imposing a fee is likely to reduce the number of Americans willing to serve as sponsors, thereby diminishing the benefits of the program. People hate having to do paperwork, and they hate having to pay a fee for the "privilege" of doing it even more. The costs of processing the forms can instead be more than offset by the extra tax revenue produced by parolees who work in the US.
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So even having fraud in a program is no reason to shut it down if shutting it down impedes immigration? Definitely a Somin article.
du·bi·ous
/ˈdo͞obēəs/
adjective
2.
not to be relied upon; suspect.
“extremely dubious assumptions”
I'm not saying he's necessarily right, I'm saying you took out a strawman.
The people who started, supported and ran the program admit that there is fraud. Somin not wanting to admit it is no surprise.
You missing one of the main points of the OP is also no surprise.
Prof. Somin has some extensive substantive arguments that aren't just appeals to authority, if you want to engage them at all.
As for my engagement, I find the fraud question besides the point.
OM's post below has the baseline reason pretty correct, which is a bad but understandable one.
I would find the OP more convincing if it wasn't just saying a temporary program shouldn't end yet without an individualized 'why this is good versus a general plus-up'.
Somin never makes a substantive argument for anything. Just anti-American opinions.
Except the "appeal to authority" is more a confession.
Here is the thing, because there are credible accusations of fraud it is best to at least shut down the program until the accusations can be checked out. Especially since the program is of dubious benefit and legality. So even if the program is legal it would be best to fix any problems before restarting it.
The whole point is that the accusations of fraud aren't credible.
1. You start out missing the whole OP finds the accusations of fraud dubious.
2. Your fallback is to say that the OP fails to contend with the fact that the accusations of fraud are admissions by DHS, missing the political aspect highlighted by OM below show admission is rather a reach, and most of the text of the OP which makes substantive arguments.
There is plenty to contend with in the OP, but you seem to be trying every fallacy hoping to find one that doesn’t require you to read the OP.
We get that the OP finds the accusations of fraud dubious. We also get that there's no quantitative statistical analysis backing up that conclusion. The reasoning is literally, "Those sorts of errors happen at SOME rate naturally, so I don't need to prove that they were happening at a plausible rate, I can just assume it."
Well, the bottom line is still, "Live by arbitrary discretion, die by arbitrary discretion." The very existence of the program was an act of arbitrary discretion, ending it is no more arbitrary.
Are you incredibly stupid, or just arguing in bad faith? One doesn't shut down an entire program because there are "credible accusations of fraud." (Even if there are here, which the post argues there aren't.) I'm guessing that you would argue that this is a bug, not a feature, in shutting down government entirely, so I won't even pose that hypothetical. But if your church found that some of the people eating at its soup kitchen actually weren't poor, would you shut down the church?
Since you want to be insulting I will explain as if I am talking to a complete idiot so you can understand.
These people are not entitled to enter the USA so if there is doubt about the program that allows them entry it is quite reasonable to suspend such a program until the questions about that program are answered satisfactorily. This is especially true when by continuing the program there are potential major issues that would not easily be fixed if the fraud is proven. Even simply deporting them would be difficult after they are allowed in.
The very people who implemented and wanted the program are the ones telling us that there are serious allegations of fraud. Should they be ignored? And let's not forget that the program is of dubious legal provenance in the first place.
As to the church example you cite that would be up to the church and would probably depend on how much fraud. If it is only one or two people who are defrauding the church the church probably would keep the program going but if over 50% of those defrauding the church were people who were pretty well off I could see the church suspending the program until the fraud could be reduced substantially.
Just because you idiotically believe in open borders doesn't mean that a fraud ridden program should be continued.
You make it clear that the fraud isn't the issue with you - you don't like the program and want to stop it for no reason. Everything else is just bad faith for the rubes.
Which explains why you do such an awful job arguing (now that you've bothered to figure out what the OP is saying)
"The very people who implemented and wanted the program"
Probably different people! Unless you still want to go with that this decision was not political and the timing is just coincidence.
You exclude the middle with "Should they be ignored?" You evaluate allegations, you neither ignore them nor (your plan) blindly follow them.
"let’s not forget that the program is of dubious legal provenance in the first place"
Not something the OP mentions. Not something you've mentioned before. Just more of a sign of your bad faith in contending with the fraud claim.
"Just because you idiotically believe in open borders doesn’t mean that a fraud ridden program should be continued."
I don't believe in open borders. But I also don't like bad faith arguments.
I'm open to being convinced this program should be shut down, but not by you, not anymore.
And you want the program even if there is fraud. Everything you state is bad faith excuses as to why it should remain open.
1) I don't really know either way about the program, as I said in a reply to you 11 hours ago, as well as the post you are replying to.
2) I don't think you've done any work at all to establish fraud, nor to rebut the OP's countervailing evidence.
3) Your failure to read 2 of my comments, as well as engage with the bulk of the OP, really shows how much you have an outcome, and you don't really care to be open on how to get there.
So should I believe Somin and two analysts from an organization that advocates open borders that there isn't any real fraud even though they have no real access to the evidence or should I believe the investigative organization that has the evidence?
Somin and the two open borders advocates dismiss the evidence based simply on the basis "mistakes happen." That doesn't cut it.
As I stated earlier because there are credible accusations of fraud it is entirely reasonable to pause the program.
This isn't a bare credibility matter - both sides provide arguments you can evaluate.
You very clearly don't wanna. You want to keep it surface level. Because you know what you think, and are lazy and not serious.
Calling me an open border advocate is just more proof you're not reading my comments.
No, it's not "quite reasonable." If we find that some applications for Social Security benefits are potentially fraudulent, should we suspend Social Security? Medicare? Medicaid? Should banks stop issuing mortgages because some applicants are attempting fraud?
Let's not forget that you simply made up this last claim, as well as the claim before that.
So… you're saying that it doesn't make sense to suspend a program just because of a few allegations of possible fraud? Have you told CountmontyC that, because that guy keeps saying that a few allegations of fraud — which don't even necessarily show fraud! — mean a whole program should be shut down.
Your government fraud examples involve criminal punishment for the fraud which leads to the question of what proposed solution you have for fraud in this immigration program? Is there anything you would support to punish the fraud?
I would also point out that in at least two of the programs you mention that the most of the recipients paid into the program and thus have a moral argument ( if not a legal argument sadly) that the benefits are owed them. Furthermore there is a difference between American citizens and foreigners in what they can demand or expect from the US government. Quite simply speaking foreigners have no right to entry into the USA nor make a y such demands. Citizens have rights that forego not. I would think even an utter moron would know that.
There is also the fact that there is no doubt that Congress passed bills which were then signed by the POTUS making those programs the law. Can you show me where Congress passed a bill specifically authorizing this program? Or was it created by executive fiat?
First, the bulk of the post wasn't written by Prof. Somin.
Second, the entire point of the post is that they didn't find fraud.
Third, given human nature, there is going to be fraud in every single program, public or private, ever in history. Thus, the mere existence of fraud isn't an argument against a program, no.
The point of the post is that some people who wanted the program to continue deny that the people running it found fraud. All their complaints are so general in nature that they do nothing to establish that fraud wasn't found.
Now, I'll gladly admit that they say they shut the program down "out of an abundance of caution", which is usually a tell that somebody is doing something they know damned well is stupidly irrational. It's entirely possible that the fraud concerns are pretextual, and they only shut the program down for campaign reasons, illegal immigration being Trump's strongest issue.
It's also possible they found fraud, and since the program is in no way compelled by statute, (In fact, it's strongly argued to be contrary to statute!) they decided the best thing was to shut it down until they could fix things.
We don't have enough information to establish which is true, but the OP gives us no sound basis to conclude that fraud wasn't really found.
No, their point is that the allegations of fraud are so general in nature that they do nothing to establish that fraud was found. All the report actually found were some data quality issues. Those may be the result of fraud, sure. But maybe not. Merely finding confusing or missing or incorrect information on a form isn't proof of anything. They didn't say that they confirmed that a single one of these was actually fraudulent.
And by the way, nothing in the report says that any of this alleged fraud was successful! They're just looking at the applications, not the approved people!
That's true: If we go by the data revealed in the OP, we have no way of judging whether the fraud concerns were valid or pretext. I said as much. The OP then goes on to assume that they are pretext, and I object to that. We do not know if they are valid or pretext, and neither does Somin. He shouldn't pretend that it's obviously invalid.
Since operation of the program is not legally mandated, (May even be legally prohibited!) and nobody's rights will be violated by its suspension, their decision to shut it down while investigating is perfectly legitimate.
Of course, Somin will not accept that reasoning, because he rejects the notion that nobody's rights are being violated by the suspension; He thinks non-citizens actually have some right to be in the US. So it's only natural that he would think the program would have to continue while the investigation took place.
Nobody who disagrees with his outlier views about borders should share that conclusion, though.
You got this from an article with a subtitle about the “extremely dubious concerns about fraud” involved in a specific program?
Update: A reply challenges the judgment of the author but even then it isn't clear (if the author accepts there is fraud) that he would not support the shutting down of the program.
Plus, the degree of fraud makes a difference. There is fraud in many things. On balance, other factors countermand shutting it down. This includes any number of organizations, public and private.
I sense a political calculation. Biden was still the presumptive candidate at this time, and the Trump/MAGA crowd were trying to gain traction with their "open borders" and "crisis at the border" attack lines. If you were subjected to their talking points all "those people" were nothing but murders, rapists, and drug pushers.
And even Elon Musk was boosting Xitter postings claiming the Biden is/was shipping in immigrants to vote for Biden in the 2024 election. And here I thought it could take years to get a green card much less citizenship.
Lifelines for foreigners take a back seat when a presidential election is at stake.
Okay, I can believe that phone numbners go bad, no problem there. But I do not believe the same is true of zip codes. If there are invalid zip codes in the accepted files database, that indicates that the system is not performing correct up-front verification.
ZIP codes can change. My post office was moved from 021xx to 024xx in 1998. For a while the system would accept either the old code or the new code.
That's because your mail went from coming out of the Boston Regional Post Office to the Brockton Regional Post Office -- think hub and spoke here, with Brockton now being your hub.
What you are missing is the national address database -- there is a listing of every deliverable address in the US -- and if you wish to see this, try ordering something online from (say) Walmart and enter your address other than the "right" way -- misspelling the street name is a good example, or if there are missing street numbers, enter one of those. Walmart will reject it as not existing.
And if Walmart can access this database (which would have accepted your 021/024 zip code either way when the USPS was), then the US Government ought to be able to do so.
And that's the issue.
And for an example of both how mail volume has shrunk and how obtuse the USPS is, your local mailman likely is physically coming from the Brockton Post Office now.
That happened in the 018XX zip codes -- where their bags of mail had been delivered to the town post office and they came out of there, they now all come out of Woburn which not only means that they ALL now have to have vehicles, and they ALL are driving an extra 20 miles a day.
Remember the green "relay" mailboxes? Those were for people who had fully walking routes and there'd be ONE truck delivering bags of mail to LOTS of walking mailmen. That became an issue during Boston Bussing when the truck was a few minutes late and a mailman was told he couldn't stand there (near South Boston High School). So he announced that the box was Federal Property (which it was) and proceeded to sit on it.
(This was back when cops had IQs above 12 and exercised discretion -- I'm not sure they would now, and it would quickly become an interesting Federal lawsuit.)
There's a scene early in A Few Good Men where Tom Cruise's character comes late to a staff meeting; he apologizes and sits down. His commanding officer says, "That's all right; I know you don't have a good excuse, so I won't force you to come up with a bad one." For some reason that came to mind when I contemplated asking for a citation here.
The CHNV program itself is inherently a fraud. It has not "helped reduce illegal entries by hundreds of thousands since its launch." It has simply shifted the illegals into a new mode of "legal" entry, instantly redefining by fiat illegals into legal immigrants. In other words, under an open borders policy there are no illegal crossings because everyone is legal. This couldn't be a worse policy unless you put Kamala in charge to manage it.
One wonders who Riva would consider a legitimately legal immigrant. Guesses?
A. Nobody, all immigration is fundamentally illegal
B. White people
C. Rich white people
D. Rich white English-speaking people
E. Rich white English-speaking Christians
Try people who WANT TO ASSIMILATE -- who hold the values of Rich White Christians even if they happen to be Jews. Or Kenyans (whom I believe are Christians, but I digress).
No Anti-American Marxists. And no anti-Christian Muslims.
Wow. I mean... it was supposed to be a joke.
I'm totally serious -- people who aspire to be like the people already here.
What are these wonderful values that rich white Christians supposedly hold?
Why should Jews hold them?
Donald Trump is rich and white, for example, and professes to be a Christian. Do you admire his personal values?
Hmm? Not entering the country illegally perhaps? That is to say entering legally, pursuant to statutory authorized methods. Not trespassing over the border, not shell game frauds by Biden/Harris to hide their illegal entries.
Man you should see the Riva of 3 hours before this comment. Whatta radical!
As usual, i don’t know WTF you’re whining about. Shithead 1 above wondered, in his own childishly stupid way, what I would consider a “legitimately legal immigrant.” Not those are shit heads words so if he has some understanding that a legal immigrant is distinct from a “”legitimately legal immigrant,” he should clarify that. I responded to that jackass comment in the tone that it merited. Just like I’m responding to your indescribably stupid jackass comment.
Riva of 8 hours ago:
It has simply shifted the illegals into a new mode of “legal” entry, instantly redefining by fiat illegals into legal immigrants.
Riva of 2 hours ago:
Not (sic) those are shit heads (sic) (sic) words so if he has some understanding that a legal immigrant is distinct from a “”legitimately (sic) legal immigrant,” he should clarify that.
I guess the takeaway is that Riva is a self-described shithead. And a day-drinker.
Was there some sort of clarification in that word vomit? And that expression, ”legitimately (sic) legal immigrant,” that's you pal. Don't you recognize your own shithead comment?
It's the typical leftist response when a reasoned position is taken by someone on the right where they accuse you of racism despite no mention of race. It's about all that they have.
You would have a point if the charge were refuted. Sadly, that’s not what happened. See e.g. Dr. Ed’s embrace of the alleged racism.
Dr. Ed's response was in response to your accusation of racism on your part where you sarcastically listed what Riva meant and Dr. Ed responded sarcastically. Also Dr. Ed's response would prove nothing about Riva since it would be Dr. Ed's response not Riva's.
And Riva did refute your accusation when he responded thusly
"Hmm? Not entering the country illegally perhaps? That is to say entering legally, pursuant to statutory authorized methods. Not trespassing over the border, not shell game frauds by Biden/Harris to hide their illegal entries."
Notice his definition does not include a racial component. You only assume a racial component based on your own bias.
Dr. Ed responded sarcastically
Those of us who know Dr. Ed know that he was not being sarcastic. Plus he doubled down later.
Rivabot not programmed to pay attention to the actual topic of the discussion, so just posts random anti-immigration screed triggered by any discussion of foreigners.
Get back to me Nieoporon when you acknowledge the bullshit you've been peddling on Charlottesville you gaslighting clown. Now, you may wonder, am I being redundant? But no, being a Nieoporon and a gaslighting clown are not equivalent so merit both insults are warranted.
Oh hay I never got your specifics on the subject - what does gaslighting mean?
If you’re confused, look up Nieoporon’s bullshit on Charlottesville and the 51 intel pukes recruited by the Biden campaign to lie to the public about the crackhead bagman’s laptop.
Oh I'm aware of the exchange; I want the general definition you're deploying, since I don't think you're using it for more than an accusation of lying.
If his comments don't help you understand I'm not inclined to help you further.
But I have a question for you. Someone I think called you "peanut." Not sure I understand. Is that drag queen slang for something? That might make sense.
That's a question for the person who called me peanut.
Well it seems to suit you, whether it just means stupid or some thing else. So let’s use it Peanut. Maybe Peanutr0? What’s your preference?
Go for it, chief.
Peanutr0 me all the way.
Inside jokes like that always play well on open Internet forums.
Calm down, we’ll just use Peanut if you want.
Note for Brett, who insists that his people only dislike illegal immigration, not legal immigration. No, they don't want any program that regularizes immigration, because they hate immigrants.
The immigration process for legal admittees is by definition regularized. It's the illegal aliens that are the problem.
they hate immigrants.
Not quite true. They would like immigrants who are white electrical engineers from northern Europe, who speak good English.
I use "would" because I don't think there actually are very many of those.
I would like immigrants who have ANY useful skill for which there is a genuine shortage, (Not just employers wishing they could drive the market wage down.) who are English literate and law abiding. I really don't give a damn if they're white. I care a lot that they'll maximally contribute to the prosperity of our country. If that's a Nigerian agronomist, or a Cambodian venture capitalist, rather than an electrical engineer from Sweden, I have no problem with that.
All I want our immigration policy to do is maximize the gain to pre-existing citizens, while minimizing the losses. Maximum benefit to cost ratio for the only people a country's government is supposed to be working for the benefit of, its citizens.
If we citizens decide to spend our own money on foreign charity, that's fine, even admirable. I do a lot of that myself. But foreign charity is never a proper function of a government funded by taxes, which people have no choice about paying, let alone one funded by loans taken out against our children's earning potential.
This is a fundamental moral point, so far as I'm concerned: If you're involuntarily taking money from people under the pretext that you'll spend it for their benefit, you damned well better direct all your efforts to THEIR benefit, not somebody else's. The only justification government could possibly have is that it's necessary to the welfare of the people it lords it over, and for the US government, that's Americans, not Haitians or Cubans.
Brett makes an exception in this area and jumps with both feet onto the government picking winners and losers based on it’s snapshot market evaluations.
Even ignoring the studies that show there’s not a ton of overlap between immigrants and native low-skilled working class jobs, immigration can be multiple things at once.
There’s a place for gap-filling, but also for talent development, and for a quality of mercy, and even for diplomacy. Brett, by eliding all the other purposes, is indeed being hostile to immigration, just not quite fatally so.
Brett also ignores all the actively anti immigrant angry bigots all up on this comments section.
Though if you push him, he will go on about culture and assimilation and Great Replacement, so at leas the comes by it openly paranoid and bigoted.
The alternatives to the government picking and choosing winners and losers to be allowed to immigrate to the USA is to allow zero immigration or open borders. Even just deciding to allow the first X number in creates a winners and losers categories.
Even just deciding to allow the first X number in creates a winners and losers categories
There are winners and losers, but it's not the government picking them with a particular goal in mind.
I think there's a meaningful distinction between what Brett wants, the janky and awful status quo's general push, and open borders.
So the government should not decide if an immigrant would be beneficial to the USA before admitting them? So under your plan if a Hamas terrorist is first in line they get in before the medical doctor from Sweden?
I say this as someone who does STEM immigration work to get talented folks who came here on a J-1 or the like to stick around and not be deported. It's good to keep talented people here; it should not be the sole focus of our immigration policy.
Current benefit should be one metric among many, because the future is unwritten, and immigrants tend to stay for a while.
I'm against terrorists being let in, which seems a pretty different category of issue from merits evaluation.
Keeping terrorists out is a merit based decision. And why should USA immigration policy not be about making certain that the immigrants benefit the USA?
We've been over this before. Theoretically, if a bank adopts a policy of voluntarily handing out money to anybody who asks, no questions asked, they can reduce bank "robberies" to zero.
Saying that this solves the bank robbery problem is stupid. In exactly the same way you're being stupid here.
In fact, most of these people are STILL illegal immigrants, in the sense that they're entering contrary to our immigration laws. They were just illegal immigrants who had the Biden administration as accomplices.
I think it is a mistake to permit ANY immigrants from these four countries because we are admitting their John Adams, Thomas Jeffersons and George Washingtons.
If our founding fathers had the option of walking away to a more prosperous country, there'd be no America because there would never have been an American Revolution. There only would have been people leaving the colonies.
Castro would have been overthrown if we had returned every Cuban who fled in the 1950s and 1960s. It has the potential of being a prosperous country -- as does Puerto Rico -- there are LOVELY beaches there... Venezuela was once the richest country in the Caribbean -- it's got sour (high sulfur) crude that only the Citgo refinery in Texas can refine, and it used to make money off other stuff as well.
In letting the ambitious flee, we are propping up despots who otherwise would be overthrown. We simply can't take all of the people living there, and we thus are making things worse for those who remain.
And on a larger scale, look at the fact that almost all of our new MDs are foreign born -- what are we doing to the countries they are coming from when we steal all of their medical talent instead of producing our own...
A significant percentage of our rehab nurses are from Kenya -- doesn't Kenya need nurses? What are the ethical implications of the wealthier US essentially stealing all of their RNs?
Dr. Ed not smart enough to understand the difference between the U.S. kidnapping foreigners and making them come and work here, or allowing them to choose to come here.
No, David Nomind failing to understand the ethical issues of permitting their (limited supply) of best & brightest to choose to come here.
The same issue arose in Ireland during the potato famine when Irish potatoes were sold abroad where they got more money (because of a world-wide blight) with people in Ireland starving as a result.
The same issue was later raised when much of the farmland in India was used to cultivate tea for the British instead of producing food for people living in India-- while the individual farmers chose to cultivate tea because they made more money doing so, was it right that so much of the farmland of a poor country was being used for this purpose?
Immigration to America is the safety valve that prevents Venezuela from exploding -- which would be the better thing to happen in terms of the long term good. So if we started saying "no", they'd have to fix their own countries and that is the only long-term solution.
No, it's not "the same issue." People are not potatoes, you jackass. People are individuals with individual rights; they are not the property of the country where they live.
"Jews should go back to Nazi Germany and try to stop Hitler, rather than fleeing" is Dr. Ed's logic.
The same issue was later raised when much of the farmland in India was used to cultivate tea for the British instead of producing food for people living in India– while the individual farmers chose to cultivate tea because they made more money doing so, was it right that so much of the farmland of a poor country was being used for this purpose?
First of all, this is nonsense. Yes, India produced a lot of tea, but it did not use "much of the farmland."
Second, I wonder what the tea growers did with the money from their exports. Did they maybe use it to buy food from elsewhere? Or did they just stuff it in bags and watch it while they starved?
Look at mortality and morbidity of slavery in Jamaica.
Until the development of cargo air freight, buying food from elsewhere was not an effective option.
we are admitting their John Adams, Thomas Jeffersons and George Washingtons.
You mean all these people are wealthy lawyers or plantation owners?
What this BS comes down to is you don't want unskilled immigrants because you think they are unproductive, and you don't want skilled ones because, you claim, we should let them stay home and lead revolutions, improve their countries, etc.
And there are more complaints - they live on welfare and do nothing, while taking Americans' jobs.
I wonder what explains these contradictions.
we are admitting their John Adams, Thomas Jeffersons and George Washingtons. You mean all these people are wealthy lawyers or plantation owners?
By the standards of their countries, yes.
And most of the founding fathers weren't rich. Jefferson died bankrupt. Washington carefully built his plantation. Adams wasn't rich. Etc...
And there are more complaints – they live on welfare and do nothing, while taking Americans’ jobs.
No, they live on welfare WHILE taking American's jobs because as welfare pays their expenses, they can work for less and still make money.
That's quite a collectivist argument you have there.
Individuals must be restricted in what they can do because collectively, there's a chance that a great person will be among them that is the key to making their home country great.
And how many times how have you been corrected re: welfare? Not that I expect you to learn, just remarkable.
Washington was the second richest President we’ve had, after Trump.
Jefferson was next. The financial problems he had came late in his life, well after his Presidency, and Adams was wealthy as well.
As for these migrants, no, they are not the wealthy powerful elite of their countries. In corrupt autocracies those people are generally part of the ruling class, and enjoy the favor of the dictator.
And how the hell does “welfare pay their expenses” while it doesn’t for American workers?
You’re full of shit.
And you have your head up your arse.
The easiest trick is to have multiple identities and work under one while collecting welfare under another. Americans, who have birth certificates, can't do this. Then there are fraudulent children, creative use of language barriers, and working under the table.
Only good thang is the Hispanic Immigration does dilute the Native Afro-Amurican share of the population (both total and working) and even though I can't Hablo with Pablo, your average Hispanic Immigrant speaks Engrish better (Ebonics "Mo-Betta") than your average Native Afro-Amurican (Go ahead, H8ers, mock my Grammar (you mock my Grammar to my face, there's gonna be a fight, my Grammar was a Horror-cost Survivor) I speak the King's Engrish except for the rare occasion when I add an Expletive for emphasis
Frank
Ilya, can you please explain any circumstances in which you agree it WOULD be acceptable to suspend the program? Your posts support unrestrained immigration in every way, and you only want to expand programs like this. Before I listen to you on whether there is or isn't fraud, or fraud at a level enough to suspend the program, I'd like to know if there's anything you think would be bad enough to actually suspend it.