The Volokh Conspiracy
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Biden-Harris on Supreme Court Term Limits
An attack on the independence of the federal judiciary.
President Biden launched an attack on the independence of the federal judiciary on July 29th when he endorsed the packing of the U.S. Supreme Court. He did this in an op-ed in the Washington Post and then in a partisan speech that same day commemorating the 60th anniversary of the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. His Vice President, Kamala Harris, endorsed Biden's comments and indicated that she would be more aggressive on this issue than Biden has been. Packing the Supreme Court is thus a key issue in the 2024 presidential and senatorial elections, as GOP Senate candidates running in red or purple states like Montana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Nevada, and Arizona should make clear.
Technically, Biden and Harris are probably calling for a statute that would unconstitutionally limit the voting rights of Supreme Court justices to 18-year terms in violation of Article III of the Constitution. I base this inference on my knowledge of the proceedings of President Biden's Supreme Court Reform Commission, since Biden's July 29th op-ed and speech provided no specifics. The Biden-Harris proposal of July 29th reflects the fact that a solid majority of voters oppose court packing, but voters like the idea of Supreme Court term limits by a large margin. Term limits on Supreme Court justices could be legally imposed by constitutional amendment, which would require a bipartisan consensus, and, if the term limit were long enough, it might be somewhat reconcilable with judicial independence. In reality, the Biden-Harris proposal is both a disguised court packing plan, which voters rightly oppose, and it is also unconstitutional and the greatest threat to judicial independence since President Franklin D. Roosevelt tried unsuccessfully, in 1937, to increase the size of the Supreme Court from 9 to 15 justices.
Biden tipped his hand that he is asking for a statute imposing an 18-year term limit on the voting rights of Supreme Court justices in cases or controversies before the Supreme Court because, in his July 29th proposal, he called for a constitutional amendment to overturn a recent Supreme Court case that he disagreed with, but he pointedly did not call for a constitutional amendment to enact an 18-year term limit on Supreme Court justices' voting rights on cases before the Supreme Court. Biden also did not specify whether such a package would apply retroactively to the nine current Supreme Court justices or prospectively, as some members of his Presidential Commission on Supreme Court reform have suggested it should. President Biden, and some members of his Commission, seem to think that the mere passage of a statute and not a constitutional amendment is all that is needed to eliminate the voting rights of Supreme Court justices once they have served for 18 years. I am not aware of any Republican member of Biden's Commission or of any right of center legal scholar or lawyer who currently thinks that what Biden-Harris are contemplating is constitutional.
How would the Biden-Harris plan work in practice if the Democrats win the 2024 election this November 5th? Imagine that sometime after noon on January 20, 2025, Senate Democrats, if they are still in the majority, eliminate the filibuster for a Supreme Court packing effort, disguised as an 18-year term limits bill on voting rights of Supreme Court justices on cases or controversies before the Supreme Court, which requires 60 votes to end debate. Then imagine that Kamala Harris has been elected president, that the Senate has ended up tied 50 to 50 as happened four years ago in the election of 2020, and that Kamala Harris's Vice President holds the tie breaking vote, enabling Supreme Court packing to pass in the Senate by a partisan vote of 51 to 50. Finally, imagine that Democrats win a slim majority in the House of Representatives. The Biden-Harris court packing statute, disguised as an unconstitutional 18-year statutory term limit on Supreme Court justices voting power would become a law awaiting judicial review as to its constitutionality.
All of this could easily happen, and with the retirement of Senators Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema there are probably no Democrats left in the Senate who would oppose the abolition of the filibuster if it stood in the way of enacting such a statute. Based on their voting records between 2021 and 2023, when the Senate was last evenly divided, and fresh off a successful 2024 reelection campaign, Montana Senator Jon Tester, Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown, Pennsylvania Senator Bob Casey, Wisconsin Senator Tammy Baldwin, and Nevada Senator Jacky Rosen would be highly likely to join the rest of their party. If red-state Senate Democrats do not intend to join the Biden-Harris court packing bandwagon, they should publicly and loudly denounce the Biden-Harris court packing plan right now, before the November 5th election, and commit to voting against it.
Although the details remain to be spelled out, the immediate effect of an unconstitutional retroactive court packing law, disguised as a term limits law, would be to remove as voting members of the Supreme Court, on cases before that Court, three out of the six of the moderate, libertarian, and conservative Republican-appointed current life-tenured Supreme Court Justices who have served for more than eighteen years: Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito. Strikingly, no progressive or Democratic-appointed Justices would be removed. Such a law would then allow President Harris and a Democratic Senate to appoint three new progressive justices—one for each of the removed justices who have served for longer than 18 years. The number of justices would also technically increase from 9 to 12, although the 3 term-limited Justices would no longer have a vote on cases before the Supreme Court. This combination is what makes the Biden-Harris proposal, if retroactive, a court packing plan and not a term limits plan.
To be sure, the new progressive justices, in turn, would be unconstitutionally term limited to 18 years. But this would be a long time far into the future—in 2042. Meanwhile, the law would immediately remake the voting membership of the Supreme Court from a 6 to 3 moderate, libertarian, and conservative Republican-appointed majority, into a Supreme Court with a 6 to 3 Progressive Democratic-appointed majority, and three Republican-appointed members without a vote on cases before the Supreme Court: Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito. President Harris's court packing bill, if it applied retroactively, would change the Supreme Court from a 6 to 3 majority of voting moderate, libertarian, and conservative Republican-appointed Justices to a 6 to 3 majority of voting progressive Democratic-appointed Justices through her new appointees. Thus, a retroactive court packing statute, disguised as an 18-year term limit on Supreme Court justices, would unconstitutionally give Democrats a 6 to 3 voting majority on the Supreme Court perhaps until 2042.
A prospective court packing law that simply added three new 18-year term limited justices, for each justice who has served more than 18 years, would lead to a 12-member Supreme Court that is tied 6 to 6. Either way, the statute Biden and Harris have in mind is a court packing law and not an 18-year term limits law. I am basing my discussion of what Biden and Harris may have in mind on conversations with key members of President Biden's Supreme Court Reform Commission, a number of whom are close personal friends. Either way, whether it is retroactive or not, the term limits statute the Biden Commission on Supreme Court Reform proposal favored, which never made its way into the public eye, is unconstitutional. Perhaps President Biden meant to put forward this proposal in his second term, which he will no longer serve due to his withdrawal as a candidate for President in 2024.
This proposed Biden-Harris "term limits" / court packing plan described above is the greatest threat to judicial independence since President Franklin D. Roosevelt tried unsuccessfully to pack the Supreme Court in 1937. His proposal would have increased the number of justices from 9 to 15—6 justices for each of the then-9 justices who were over the age of 70. The Court's membership has been fixed at 9 justices since 1869—a period of 155 years. Other than FDR's unsuccessful 1937 court packing plan, and some short-term court packing during the immense crisis of the Civil War, no Supreme Court packing law has ever passed in 235 years of American history. The size of the Supreme Court did increase from 6 justices at the founding, to 7 and then 9, before 1861, as the population and number of states in the union increased exponentially. None of those increases were motivated by a desire to pack the Supreme Court outright, as is explained in Joshua Braver, Court Packing: An American Tradition?, 61 Boston College Law Review 2747 (2020). While I think that what FDR tried to do in 1937 was also unconstitutional, I will confine my comments today to addressing the constitutionality of what I know to be the plan for statutory court-packing as term limits on justices' voting, which the Biden Commission on Supreme Court Reform considered.
The present nine life-tenured justices would be duty-bound to hold statutory term limits schemes, whether retroactive or prospective, unconstitutional. The term of office and powers, including the power of voting on cases before the Supreme Court, of life tenured Supreme Court can no more be altered by statute than can be the term of office or powers of the President, the Vice President, Senators, or Representatives, or of any state elected officials. Congress could not by statute take away the Vice President's tie breaking vote when the Senate is equally divided. Biden and Harris, of all people, should understand that, having served both as Vice Presidents and Senators.
The insurmountable constitutional and legal problem with President Biden's Supreme Court term limits statute in any form is that Article III, Section 1 of the Constitution says explicitly that:
"The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour …." This clause, on its face, renders any term limits, retroactive or prospective, on the Supreme Court judges unconstitutional. Such term limits cannot be achieved by the subterfuge of eliminating voting rights on cases of Supreme Court justices but not the justices' title, for reasons implicit in U.S. Term Limits Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995) (limit on eligibility to be on the ballot is a subterfuge for an unconstitutional term limit).
Since 1761, British law has defined "good behaviour" to mean life tenure absent conviction of a felony. The Framers of the U.S. Constitution clearly understood it to mean at least that too, with a felony on its own probably insufficient absent a special impeachment and conviction proceeding in addition. That is also how tenure during good behavior has been widely understood by Americans, including American Presidents, from 1789 until President Biden's speech on July 29, 2024.
The only clause in the Constitution that even comes close to empowering Congress to legislate as to the Supreme Court reads as follows in relevant part (emphasis added):
The Congress shall have Power … To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution … all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Congress thus does have the power to make "necessary and proper laws for carrying into execution" the judicial power of the life tenured justices and judges. Congressional power over the judiciary under this Clause has, however, been construed to be limited by the critical principle of judicial independence, which is the right way in which to construe it. See Plaut v. Spendthrift Farm Inc., 514 U.S. 211 (1995) (opinion of the court by Scalia, J). I think, as Plaut ruled, that the Necessary and Proper Clause does not allow the Congress to retroactively require courts to effectively reverse themselves on previously adjudicated cases, which is merely an implication of the principle of judicial independence. Much less does it allow Congress to effectively nullify Supreme Court Justices' life tenure by curtailing the justices' voting rights on cases before the Supreme Court after 18 years when the President and Congress are "displeased" with the Court's decisions.
Some too-clever-by-half law professors (to some extent including me, 22 years ago) have claimed that proposals of the type considered by the Biden Supreme Court Reform Commission are not really an attack on the Justices' life-tenure. They argue that from 1789 to 2024, Supreme Court justices have held two federal, judicial offices: the first deciding cases that come before the Supreme Court, and the second riding circuit or hearing cases on the lower federal courts. Congress first curtailed and then eliminated circuit riding in the Nineteenth Century at the request of the Supreme Court justices themselves when it created many lower federal court judgeships. But, even today, Supreme Court justices are also circuit justices who hear requests for stays from their home circuits. They can also decide federal court of appeals or district court cases in any circuit when they are designated to do so by a lower federal court chief judge.
Yet the abolition of circuit riding was constitutional for the same reason the Supreme Court upheld the abolition of 16 federal court of appeals judgeships created by the lame duck John Adams Administration and a lame duck Federalist Congress in February of 1801. See Stuart v. Laird, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 299 (1803). Congress can abolish a level of inferior court judgeships, the inferior judges of which have tenure during "good behaviour," and it can stop Supreme Court justices from hearing cases on inferior courts, but it cannot redefine "good behaviour" to constitute voting rights on the Supreme Court for only the first 18 years of a Supreme Court justice's service.
The law professor proponents of statutory term limits claim that Congress could retroactively redefine the office of Supreme Court judge to clarify that justices vote only on Supreme Court cases for the first eighteen years after their appointment as Supreme Court judges, and then for the rest of their lives they have tenure during good behavior as circuit court judges who still have the title of Supreme Court judge but not the power to vote on cases before the Supreme Court. But this position is in my now considered judgment a mistaken view. I have changed my mind on this in the last 22 years, as I will explain further below. Everyone has long understood that the primary responsibility of the "office" of Supreme Court Justice is to serve as the final arbiter who votes in cases or controversies properly before the Supreme Court.
Moreover, the office of "judge of the supreme court," unlike the office of circuit judge, which Congress created by statute in 1789, is one of the very few offices created by the Constitution, itself, and not by a federal statute. This is made clear by its mention in the Appointments Clause, which explicitly says that: "[The President] shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law."
Congress has no power by statute to alter this constitutionally created and tenured office or its powers, an office and powers that are currently held by nine life-tenured men and women. In this office, which the Constitution itself creates, those nine Justices have the duty (in Latin, officium, from which the English word "officer" is derived) to vote on all cases or controversies before the Supreme Court. Similarly, Congress cannot alter the terms of offices, or the powers of those who hold such offices, as the Members of the House of Representatives, the Members of the Senate, the President, the Vice President, presidential electors, the Chief Justice of the United States, and ambassadors and other public ministers and consuls. The Supreme Court has also correctly rejected efforts by State legislatures to impose term limits on members of Congress notwithstanding the state legislatures' express and residual authorities to regulate elections and ballot access under the Tenth Amendment. See U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995).
All offices of the United States other than the ones noted above (except for the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate) are created by Congress by statute and can be term limited by Congress; but that's not so for any "supreme or inferior" federal court judgeships. Congress can no more change the term of the "office" or the voting rights of Supreme Court justices or "Judges" by statute than it can do so as to the term of office or the powers of the President, the Vice President, Senators, or Representatives. Nor can the states change the term of office of any federal officials by, for example, effectively imposing term limits on their federal Senators and Representatives. See U.S. Term Limits.
The American people adopted the Twenty-Second Amendment to limit U.S. presidents to no more than two elected terms or a total of ten years in office. This was an exceptionally wise and bold move, which exempted from the two-term limit the then-serving President, Harry S. Truman. Just as it was necessary to pass a constitutional amendment to limit presidents to two terms prospectively, it is also necessary to pass a constitutional amendment to term limit or change the voting powers of Supreme Court justices, and a constitutional amendment would also be necessary to change the term of office or powers of the Vice President, or of Senators or of Representatives. No-one thought, in 1947, that Congress could by statute pass as "necessary and proper" a law that carried into execution the President's "four-year term of office" by adding the limit that he could serve for only two four-year terms. The Framers of the Constitution considered these sorts of ideas and rejected them out of hand, as the words of the Constitution show. Nor did anyone think that such a statute could have left Franklin D. Roosevelt with the title, but not the powers, of the presidency, when he began his third term as President in 1941, while some other individual also called the President somehow had all the powers that belonged to FDR under the Constitution.
The Biden-Harris plan is thus unconstitutional and should not be taken seriously by anyone. And it is also bad public policy for at least five reasons.
First, it would in practice be the end of judicial independence, which has been essential to the rule of law and the endurance of the American experiment. Instead, it would hopelessly politicize the Court, both immediately and in the long term. The new Court majority would owe their jobs to the current President and Congress far more directly than the does the current majority of Supreme Court justices. The next time Republicans win the presidency and simple majorities in both Houses of Congress, they would simply repack the Supreme Court themselves.
Such a move by Biden and Harris, with the certainty of a tit for tat by Republicans, is a great threat to our constitutional republic. What the Democrats do without bipartisan support in 2025, the Republicans will certainly do again without bipartisan support whenever they get a trifecta. It is no exaggeration to say that in short order this would end the 235-year American experiment with constitutional democracy.
A second policy problem, considered by Biden's Supreme Court Reform Commission, is that when that plan is fully implemented, it would provide that one of the nine seats on the Supreme Court would open every two years over an eighteen-year cycle. This would give every two-term president four seats to fill, which is almost always enough to tip the balance on the Supreme Court. As of 2024, we have had fifteen presidents who have served eight or almost eight years in office. They include George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, Ulysses S. Grant, Grover Cleveland, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama.
What would it be like to live in a country which has had fifteen major shifts in constitutional caselaw instead of, or possibly in addition to, the perhaps five or six major shifts in caselaw that our life tenured Supreme Court has produced? The Supreme Court would become much like the National Labor Relations Board, which is quickly dominated by labor unions during Democratic Administrations and by the Chamber of Commerce during Republican Administrations. So much for the rule of law and the Constitution. What is next? Abolishing the fifty states or the Senate by statute?
A third policy problem that bears noting is that the Biden-Harris term limit of 18 years would have cut short the tenure of many Justices long admired by Progressives, among others Thurgood Marshall, Louis Brandeis, Joseph Story, William J. Brennan, Jr., John Marshall Harlan the elder, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Hugo Black, John Marshall, and John Paul Stevens.
Do Biden-Harris, and Democratic Senate candidates in red states like Montana and Ohio, really want to cut short the judicial careers of all people like this? After all, many Supreme Court justices are said by progressives to "grow in office." That would happen to a much lesser degree with a statutory term limit of 18 years on the service of Supreme Court justices.
A fourth policy problem with the Biden-Harris plan is that twice in American history when one party controlled the presidency, the Congress, and the Supreme Court the results were catastrophic. In 1944, when New Deal Democrats controlled the presidency, Congress, and the Supreme Court, they abused their power in Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944). Six of the eight Democratic appointees on the Supreme Court voted to let President Franklin D. Roosevelt send 100,000 Japanese American citizens to concentration camps solely because of their race.
An earlier abuse of power occurred in the late 1790's when the Federalist Party controlled the presidency, the Congress, and all the federal courts. Between 1798 and 1801, Federalist Party justices and judges appointed by Federalist Party Presidents, George Washington and John Adams, used the Sedition Act of 1798 passed by a Federalist Party Congress to jail Democrats for, among other things, calling President Adams "pompous," "foolish," "silly," and a "bully." The courts jailed and fined citizens and even a congressman from Vermont, even though the speech in question was clearly constitutionally protected under the First Amendment.
The fifth and final public policy problem is that in arguing for an 18-year term limit for U.S. Supreme Court justices, President Biden gives great weight to the fact that other constitutional democracies have term limits or mandatory retirement ages on their "equivalents" to our Supreme Court justices. Biden misses, however, the fact that the United States differs greatly from all of those other much less free, much less wealthy, and much less populous constitutional democracies. From 1789 to the present, the United States has been "a shining city on a hill," which all of the other constitutional democracies formed since 1875 have strived imperfectly to emulate. Millions of Southern, Eastern, and Central Europeans; Arab and Sub-Saharan Africans; West, South, and East Asians; and Central and South Americans would all come to live in the United States, if they legally could do so, while virtually no Americans, including oppressed Black Americans, try to leave our country.
I suspect that judicial life tenure is one of the reasons why the United States is freer than any other constitutional democracy. I also suspect that the high level of certainty in U.S. law, especially Supreme Court caselaw, has reduced the risk factor in investment in the United States. This in turn explains why the United States has the highest GDP per capita of any of the G-20 nations, which are constitutional democracies.
Salman Rushdie could publish The Satanic Verses in the United States and be confident that he would not be prosecuted for doing so in 20 years. Sadly, this is not the case in Canada, Germany, France, Brazil, India, or many other constitutional democracies, in some of which, like India, I have been told by scholars that Rushdie's book is banned. Elon Musk can start SpaceX in the United States and be confident that it would not be nationalized with inadequate just compensation in twenty years. Sadly, this is not the case in many other constitutional democracies.
Our life tenured Supreme Court, and the certainty that it creates have played a central role in establishing the liberty and prosperity evidenced by our unequaled GDP per capita among the G-20 nations. I lay out the evidence for this claim in 700 pages in a two-volume recently published book series, The History and Growth of Judicial Review: The G-20 Common Law Countries and Israel (Oxford University Press 2021) and The History and Growth of Judicial Review: The G-20 Civil Law Countries (Oxford University Press 2021). The research I did for these two books caused me to rethink my earlier support, as a policy matter, for Supreme Court term limits of 18 years accomplished by constitutional amendment or statute. See Steven G. Calabresi & James Lindgren, Term Limits for the Supreme Court: Life Tenure Reconsidered, 29 Harv. J. of L. & Pub. Pol. 769 (2006), and a 2020 op-ed in The New York Times. I once in 2002 signed an op-ed with Professor Akhil Reed Amar endorsing statutory 18-year term limits, but I recanted that view in my 2006 law review article with Lindgren, writing that statutory term limits were unconstitutional and unwise.
The other constitutional democracies that have term limits or mandatory retirement ages on their Supreme Courts or Constitutional Courts—their equivalents to the U.S. Supreme Court when it comes to having the power of judicial review—all give much more power to those "courts" than the U.S. Constitution gives to the U.S. Supreme Court. All of these foreign "courts" have the power to issue advisory opinions; lack a strict standing doctrine, like the one set forth by the U.S. Supreme Court; or allow citizen/taxpayer standing, which is not allowed in the U.S. and which hugely broadens the range of issues which a Supreme Court or Constitutional Court can rule on. Several foreign Supreme or Constitutional Courts have the power to declare constitutional amendments unconstitutional. Several also allow their current justices or judges to select their successors without meaningful input from elected officials.
This medieval guild system of incumbent judges selecting their judicial successors resembles the medieval guild system of U.S. law schools where faculty members select their own successors, a job which faculties do not do very well. In contrast, U.S. Supreme Court justices are selected by democratically elected officials through presidential nomination and senatorial confirmation. This reduces the counter-majoritarian difficulty, which judicial review creates.
In short, the reason why so many foreign countries have term limits, or age limits, and the U.S. Supreme Court justices do not, is because the foreign equivalents to our Supreme Court justices are significantly less constrained in other ways. They are therefore more in need of additional constitutional restraint than is the U.S. Supreme Court because they are not really "courts" as Americans have always understood that word.
Court packing, or term limits, would sharply undermine the independence of our judiciary. It's unconstitutional, and it's bad policy. I hope that Senators of both parties speak out against it.
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>President Biden launched an attack on the independence of the federal judiciary on July 29th when he endorsed the packing of the U.S. Supreme Court. He did this in an op-ed in the Washington Post
I doubt he is even aware of half the things done under his name let alone able to articulate any complex ideas that aren’t spoonfed to him through a teleprompter or earpiece. You might as well just go to his underlings/handlers/family if you want an explanation or to find the true source for the various things this government does or doesn’t do.
Maybe he could offer thoughts on the Late, Great, Hannibal Lecter?
Biden’s proposal is the ideal exemplar of a low probably event. Something like a zero percent chance of any of it actually happening. Maybe more like a negative percent chance.
What’s far more likely is for the Trump/Vance administration to just ignore the supreme court. That will keep scotus ultra-independent, because their opinions will be for internal use only.
What’s far more likely is for the Trump/Vance administration to just ignore the supreme court.
What makes you think that? Moving the needle on the Federal judiciary generally and the Supreme Court in particular is pretty much the only thing the Trump administration achieved. Why would he stop now?
He achieved it by filling vacancies as they arrived in front of him. If you're concerned that, should another vacancy appear, he'd fill it? That's a reasonable expectation.
But since he already has a 6-3 majority on the Court for most matters, he has much less motivation to engage in actual Court packing than the Democrats; The political costs would be as high, but the gains relatively minor.
Brett, notice how none of this applies to the DC Circuit Court.
And Jamie Raskin is openly stating that the House will refuse to seat Trump.
Well, yes, that's why the Democrats in their jurisdiction stripping proposal want to put the DC Circuit court in the Supreme court's place: They presently dominate that circuit.
Jamie Raskin can openly state anything he likes. If it goes to the House, the votes are held, constitutionally, by state delegation, not a majority of the entire body. Raskin's state has only one Republican House member, so his vote against Trump is redundant.
At the moment Republicans control 26 House delegations to 22 by the Democrats. That is unlikely to flip in November. So, without massive Republican defections Raskin's dream can't happen.
If it goes to the House, the votes are held, constitutionally, by state delegation, not a majority of the entire body.
Yes, but maybe. Do not forget Article I Section 5.
"Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings"
If the GOP has a majority of state delegations, but the Dems have a majority overall, and so also the Speaker, who's going to make them hold the 12th Amendment vote ? I am prepared to believe that SCOTUS might be willing to state that the constitution requires a vote, but do you think they'd try to issue an actual order to the House ? And how would they enforce such an order even if they made it ? SCOTUS as the same number of divisions as the Pope.
Raskin’s state has only one Republican House member, so his vote against Trump is redundant.
Not quite. If the Dems wanted to prevent a 12th Amendment vote, they could try to avoid the necessary quorum :
"a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice"
Thus a solo Maryland GOP Rep would count towards a quorum.
Yes, I think for something the Constitution is this unambiguous about, where the matter was this important, the Court actually would demand that Congress do as the Constitution directs.
Your quorum suffers from a number of problems.
First, if you actually do manage to prevent a quorum, "but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide."
Second, if you're playing constitutional hardball at THAT level, you're not going to be the only side doing it, and if your attempt falls short of creating an absolute lack of a quorum, but only produces something between 2/3 and 1/2, you've just arranged for the House to be in session with a strong working majority of Republicans who are extremely pissed off. There are all sorts of things they could do with that majority that you wouldn't enjoy one bit, and which would be just as legitimate as denying the winner of the election his office.
Like, denying Democrats who won their elections their offices, on the basis that the forfeited them by not showing up... Yes, they could constitutionally do that, under such a circumstance.
Finally, what's the end game here, short of either capitulation or civil war? You think if Trump wins the election you can peacefully deny him office? Why the hell would you think that plausible?
A few years ago, some bright bulbs in the Democratic media circles wanted to muscle Garland's confirmation through after only seating Democrats in the Senate at the beginning of the session.
We'll see something like that rear its ugly head again should Trump win.
Strictly :
1. House Reps are not carried over into the next Congress, so they all start off the new Congress equally new
2. It so happens in that in the Senate this time round, there are many more GOP Senators who are "carried over" from the 118th Congress to the 119th
That previously discussed strategy is unlikely to work (for many reasons).
My point is that if not that, then something else will get cooked up.
At the moment Republicans control 26 House delegations to 22 by the Democrats. That is unlikely to flip in November.
Not for all values of “unlikely.” It is well within the power of the GOP to lose that majority. (It doesn't have to "flip" - it just has to go below 26.)
1. North Carolina is likely to go from tied to GOP, but :
2. Iowa (currently 4-0 GOP) has three close districts (less than 55% GOP vote)
3. Arizona (currently 6-3 GOP) has three close districts, two of them less than 51% GOP)
4. Wisconsin (currently 6-2 GOP) has two close districts with less than 55% GOP vote
Arizona and Wisconsin have Dem election administrations.
Obviously not worth a lot of Dem effort just to try to flip state delegation majorities for the very unlikely chance of a 12th Amendment House vote for President. But there are 8 close districts in Iowa, Arizona and Wisconsin well worth trying to flip for House control.
I said unlikely, specifically because I didn't mean impossible. Sure, it could happen, it's just not the smartest thing to bet on happening.
Like most things democrat, the opposite way leads to the best policy. The DC circuit and district court are in dire need of reform after years of democrat nominees.
Democrats don't seem to understand that Republicans can play hardball, too.
If they "reform" the Supreme Court, then Republicans would happily "reform" the DC Circuit by shutting it down and transferring the Judges to other circuits.
The 9th Circuit needs to be chopped up, too.
Do...do you think the DC circuit is very liberal? Or that the 9th is these days?
The GOP punching some random dude in the dick and saying 'SEE DEMS I CAN PLAY HARDBALL TOO!'
And here we have Peanut proving to us all that he's mentally unhinged.
You say the GOP has no integrity and will stoop to whatever level they think Dems are at.
And then your examples of revenge are not things that hurt Dem causes, except that they're dumb and bad for the US generally.
You say the GOP has no integrity and will stoop to whatever level they think Dems are at.
Your lack of cynicism about politics is unfortunate, Peanut. Given enough time you'll be just as jaded and bitter as I am.
Democrats, Republicans- there's not much difference here. People are just people, and there's nothing special here. When one side sees an opportunity for political advantage, they try to take it.
The only objection I have here is that you're pretending that one side is somehow better than the other.
And then your examples of revenge are not things that hurt Dem causes, except that they’re dumb and bad for the US generally.
It's unfortunate that you are ignorant of the importance of the appellate courts, especially the DC Circuit. It's doubly unfortunate that you are ignorant of how the DC Circuit has done Democrats a lot of favors over the past 10 or so years.
Harry Reid went to a lot of trouble blowing up the Senate to enable Obama to stuff the DC Circuit.
And all to install middle of the roaders ?
Oh Harry !
It was a brilliant tactical move by Harry Reid, but a massive strategic blunder.
I keep saying this: Republicans play politics on the assumption that it's a repeat game, sometimes one side will be on top, sometimes the other side. So they actually pay attention to the long term consequences of tactical moves when the tables have turned.
Democrats, by contrast, are working towards an end game of one party rule. They fully anticipate that eventually one side is going to win, and then use that power to lock themselves into power, so the tables will NOT turn. Game over. And that side is going to be them.
And why wouldn't they anticipate that? They've essentially permanently taken over every urban center in the country, how often does a city flip back to Republican control? Why wouldn't they anticipate finishing the job?
So they're immune to arguments based on the assumption the tables will turn. Instead they tend to treat every time they're on top at the federal level as the first day of their long anticipated permanent rule. And be shocked and angry when they lose control again.
Every time the tables turn against them, they become more resolved to use their next turn in power to upset the board and make their rule permanent. Packing the Court is just another move to accomplish that, it would open the door to entrenchment legislation that would otherwise be struck down.
I'll ignore that one-sided and myopic view of events and point out that the DC Circuit is not stuffed.
I remember when the 9C had an actual partisan lean. The DC Circuit has nothing like that reputation.
Democrats, by contrast, are working towards an end game of one party rule
Brett, you continue to use your paranoia to justify your authoritarianism.
Gaslightro : I’ll ignore that one-sided and myopic view of events and point out that the DC Circuit is not stuffed.
Meanwhile in this reality, the DC Circuit has a comfortable, and utterly reliable, 7-4 Democrat majority. Which never hesitates to en banc when a GOP majority panel reaches the "wrong " answer. The majority is entirely composed of Judge Millett, Judge Pillard and Judge Wilkins, all appointed by Obama as a result of Harry Reid nuking the filbuster. Indeed they were the main purpose for him nuking it. A couple of these seats had been vacant since the Baby Bush Presidency, which he was unable to fill.
And let us not forget that it was the Dems who started the game of filbustering Appeal Court nominees with Miguel Estrada, filibustered from the DC Circuit by the Dems for nearly three years, until he withdrew.
The DC Circuit is as Democrat as the Supreme Court is Republican. In fact considerably more so because the GOP Justices often break ranks to hand the win to the other side, whereas the DC Circuit Dems never do so.
the DC Circuit has a comfortable, and utterly reliable, 7-4 Democrat majority
As the 5C shows, mere 'majority appointed by one party' is not what makes a Court partisan.
The rest is just the Republican spin that let them be utterly awful on Supreme Court nominations and try and pretend they're clean.
You got your fucking Court. You gave up all integrity to do it. Looking left and digging up old and weak complaints only underscores how inconsistent your outrage is.
Since WW2, Democrat majorities in the Senate have rejected three Republican SCOTUS nominees. Republican majorities have rejected one Democrat nominee. So that would a one Tit for, er, three Tats. Hardly “utterly awful " - more like preternaturally restrained.
Now let’s look at the actual votes. The six current GOP Justices had an average 42 No votes each. The three Dem Justices had an average 38 No votes each. But all three Dem Justices were appointed long after Thomas, Roberts and Alito had accumulated an average of 37 No votes. That means it took the GOP 13 years on average to retaliate against this Democrat departure from “collegiality.” And it wasn’t retaliation plus, it was no more than getting even.
Before the current Justices, in the golden days when the President’s nominees were waved through by the Senate, the average Democrat nominee had 5 No votes. The average GOP nominee had three times that number.
This “awful’ GOP behavior is in reality under-retaliating for prior Dem fouls. It is called the Stupid Party for a reason.
digging up old and weak complaints
So what's the time limit on old and weak complaints ? If Harry's nuclear option is now timebarred, then when will Garland be timebarred ? Presumably a maximum of three more years.
Decontextualized statistics is not good political science.
You ignore blue slips, you ignore filibustering. You ignore the actual deals that were made between actual leaders and their coalitions. And events. And the individual candidates' attributes (your samples are not big enough to average over those; it's a common problem with political science.)
This is narrative-seeking trash and abuse of statistics masquerading as science.
The guy deploying “utterly awful” and - checks notes - er, that’s it - fulminates against his opponent’s alleged want of statistical precision.
The Ninth Circuit after Trump is certainly much less liberal than it used to be, but it's still pretty out there (which just how crazy a point it started from).
Regardless, it does need to be split up. This has nothing to do with its liberalness. If anything one of the new circuits will probably be worse because the crazy people will be more concentrated and will be guaranteed to control the en banc decision, but the unwieldy size is enough of a problem that fixing it is worth it.
I do agree re: splitting up the 9th. Just inefficiently large. I don't really know why the annual report on the state of the judiciary the AO puts out doesn't recommend it. It's no longer a political hot potato.
I just don't think it's very a good choice for making a revenge play.
I'm just shocked- shocked!- that a Democratic member of Congress would suggest that Congress should just refuse to certify a potential Trump electoral college victory.
Great minds in these very comments told me that it wouldn't happen.
Great minds never ever trust Ed's take on what's going on.
Who said I trusted him?
Your post replies to his post, taking it as true.
In between my seeing Ed's comment and my writing a reply to it, did it not enter your head that I would the most bare-bones, basic internet search?
More importantly, did you even bother to look it up yourself?
Martinned2 4 hours ago
What’s far more likely is for the Trump/Vance administration to just ignore the supreme court.
Like ignoring the supreme court with student loan forgiveness
joe dallas, amateur expert epidemiologist, climatologist, economist and jurist, how has the supreme court been ignored with student loan forgiveness?
Why would you think they'd do that? Unlike the Biden administration, Trump has no record of ignoring adverse court decisions.
"Trump has no record of ignoring adverse court decisions."
[rubbing my chin...thinking to myself] "...something about Jan 6...Think Hobie!!! Think!!! Don't let Bellmore get away with this shit!"
I'm thinking, did Trump ignore any adverse court decisions on January 6th? No, not that I recall. Was there a court decision concerning how the Senate would handle the EC vote count, for him to defy?
I'll agree that he doesn't always do his utmost to effectuate adverse court rulings, but that's not the same thing as defying them.
Trump ignored the 60 plus court decisions that rejected claims of election fraud, variously affirmed by higher courts, and continued to insist that the election was stolen, even inciting and supporting an insurrection to prevent the election results from being implemented.
Biden has no such record. You are making up law stuff again.
Sarcastr0 19 mins ago
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Mute User
Biden has no such record. You are making up law stuff again.
Sacastro - now suffering from dementia - did you forget the student loan forgiveness
Court says law A does not have the authority.
Administration is now trying law B.
You come in so hot, but are so ignorant. Every time.
At some point, if you keep switching laws, it becomes pretext.
But so far it's only 2 laws.
"You come in so hot, but are so ignorant. Every time."
He's stayed in so many Holiday Inn's!
"What’s far more likely is for the Trump/Vance administration to just ignore the supreme court."
Like Biden has been doing, repeatedly, throughout his term? And his cackling idiot sidekick has been on board with?
Cite?
His multiple attempts to forgive student loans in spite of the SCOTUS saying he is not permitted to do so, for one.
Advocating for a rent moratorium AFTER SCOTUS ruled it unconstitutional.
Sigh. Once again: neither of those things happened. You can argue that Biden violated the spirit of some ruling, but you have incorrectly characterized those rulings.
1. SCOTUS did not say that he was not permitted to do so. It said that one specific law didn't authorize it. Biden is not relying on that law anymore.
2. SCOTUS did not rule the moratorium unconstitutional. Not in its first ruling, and not ever. The first time it heard a case about the moratorium, it rejected the challenge to it. The second time, it upheld the challenge — but not on the grounds that it was "unconstitutional."
I disagree with Biden on both policy and law on each of these issues. But if you don't actually know or understand the facts, maybe you should not spout talking points about them.
What a stupid comment. Most ignoring of SCOTUS decisions, like CDC eviction mortarium, 2nd Amendment, and student loans comes from the Democrat Party.
But those same Democrats threw a fit when Kim Davis wouldn't give marriage licenses to men who thought the right to place to blow their load was into another man's rear end.
Hey there bigot: Go fuck yourself!
That's right: If you're so concerned about where a real man (I would have said "another man" but you are clearly not a man) ejaculates, then you can go blow your own load in your own ass.
You take way too much offense to it. You must be one of the butt pirates.
You mean like Biden and student loan BS
I agree a constitutional amendment would be required to implement term limits.
But given that Biden is proposing a constitutional amendment to implement part of his package, he might as well propose a constitutional amendment to implement the rest.
If he did that, we could then discuss the merits of the proposal, rather than have all this foaming-at-the-mouth rhetoric about its being an assault on the constitution etc. etc.. After all, EVERY constitutional amendment is in some sense an assault on tbe constitution as it currently exists. That’s the whole point of it.
I like how you frame this naked leftist power grab as if it's some kind of neutral event.
We’ve had constitutional amendments instituting term limits before. Like the existing one for Presidents, a term limit amendment for Supreme Court Justices could exempt the incumbents at the time of ratification and apply only to future appointees.
As opposed to the actual existing RW takeover of the Supremes.
How is term limits for supreme court justices a "leftist power grab"?
I will believe it's actually a poposal for an improvement in governance instead of an attempt at a leftist power grab if the proposal exempts sitting justices.
Biden didn't mention that in his op/ed, and I strongly doubt it'll be there.
-dk
He didn't not mention it either; it wasn't a proposed bill, but an op/ed. I think that for many reasons all existing justices will be grandfathered in.
But I would note that even without grandfathering, if (god forbid) Trump is elected again, then he would be appointing the replacements for Thomas and Roberts.
One thing that wouldn't be grandfathered in: the ability to purchase your own Supreme Court Justice and fly them around the world like your own personal valet.
Exactly. A Republican winning would preserve the status quo (more or less) while a Democrat winning could create a liberal majority. In the short term, it favors Democrats.
The thing is, constitutional amendments require supermajority votes at multiple points, which means that they are basically useless for achieving anything controversial. Even the amendment he proposed would be unlikely to get out of Congress, let alone ratified, given how directly it targets Trump, who's quite popular in the GOP. The rest of them would be DOA.
So the Harris administration, if it happens, is much more likely to go in the opposite direction, and try to do the whole thing without amendments.
Which woukld make such an exercise futile.
No, it would render the Court's refusal to go along with it another excuse for Court packing.
The thing is, constitutional amendments require supermajority votes at multiple points, which means that they are basically useless for achieving anything controversial.
Glad to see you admit this.
When have I ever denied that? Controversial constitutional amendments aren't SUPPOSED to be viable! Amendments are for things that there exists a substantial consensus for, not stuff we're deeply divided about.
The present problem is that there are a lot of things, like a balanced budget amendment, or term limits for Congress, where there's a public consensus, but Congress doesn't like that consensus and won't act on it.
Congress doesn’t like that consensus and won’t act on it.
Which is as designed. Because not all popular ideas are good; hence us not doing direct democracy.
Meanwhile, you decide the other side is in bad faith in all things. Which presto makes everything controversial!
And thus, you reach a calcified static Constitution even you say you hate. But better than letting the libs get a foot in!
While I agree that not all popular things are good, any mechanism that can obstruct popular things that are bad, because those in power recognize they're bad, can also obstruct popular things that are good, because those in power are bad.
In democracy, if the people durably want something bad and constitutional, they deserve to get it, good and hard. Because, ultimately, in a democracy the people are in charge of deciding what's "bad".
I do not think your conception of democracy aligns with the Founders, who did a very good job of creating a Constitution that elegantly mixes the moral legitimacy of populism with the policy legitimacy of elitism.
They talked about needing elites a lot, actually. Your populist reformulation of the Constitution is many things, but it is not originalist.
The Presidential Commission on the Supreme Court provides a variety of possible ways to implement term limits.
Respectable legal scholars provide statutory approaches.
Respectable legal scholars can be wrong. But, especially given sizable groups are supporting different methods, it is sensible to leave the means open for discussion.
There is going to be "foaming" either way. The response to Biden's amendment proposal has not simply been "hmm, interesting."
The two most conservative members of the Court, Justices Thomas and Alito, also happen to be the longest-serving members of the Court. Under this plan, they would both be forced into senior status in less than three years. One suspects the Democrats would not be quite as enthusiastic about this plan if the two longest-serving justices instead had happened to be its two most liberal members.
It is much like the FDR plan in that respect. Democrats target the oldest justices, not because they are old, but because they make rulings they don't like.
If Republicans wanted to engage on this issue in good faith, and work towards a new Amendment that has overwhelming bipartisan support, then Rs could absolutely address that when drafting the Amendment's language. Existing Justices are grandfathered in. This Amendment will take effect 10 years (or whatever) after ratification. Existing Justices who have served more than 18 years will be randomly selected to vacate. Or any other idea.
Of course Dems would love to have Thomas and Alito off the Court. But adding one of the above provisions would never be a deal-killer (given the alternative of no Amendment passing).
What's interesting to me is not that Dems want an Amendment and ideally one that removes two far-right Justices quickly. What's interesting is that Rep. politicians are not fully behind some Republican version of an idea that is hugely popular among all demographics. Or even marginally behind the proposal.
Let me guess - you started reading this blog back when it was hosted by WaPo?
I’ve been reading the blog since about 3 minutes after it was founded. I think (but admit that I’m not certain) that I was one of the first 25 readers…I wonder if that’s something Eugene or Sasha can even check…???)
Eugene was a year behind me in law school. But thanks for playing. And thanks for the substantive response to my substantive comment.
You're a worthless leftist, and not one of my countrymen.
I have no idea what you are talking about. What Amendment? The plan is contained in H.R.5140 - Supreme Court Term Limits and Regular Appointments Act. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5140
Putting aside the practical and constitutional issues of this ill-conceived plan, the president picks a new justice at the beginning of the first and third years of his administration. The new justice would replace the longest-serving justice, who is pushed into senior status. A new justice every two years is where the 18-year term comes from.
FD,
Pretty much every Constitutional scholar I've heard from agrees that it would have to come about via an Amendment...that doing it by executive (or legislative) fiat would not pass judicial muster.
So, for future reference; any time someone references "The Amendment" or "An Amendment" in regards to SCOTUS term limits; they are referring to some hypothetical future proposed Amendment, which would of course then head off to the various states.
(I think that engaging in shenanigans, like somehow tying new rules to Congressional control over the Sup. Ct's budget, is too clever by half, and will immediately lose the support of most Americans. I have to admit that I'm intrigued by an idea I saw floated recently, where a second Sup Ct-level court would be created, with one for appellate review cases, and one for original Jx cases, or something along those lines. I saw only one paragraph devoted to this idea, so the devil's in the details, of course.)
I would have no issue with an Amendment to limit Supreme Court justices to 18-year terms (or 20 or whatever), with current justices grandfathered in, but Democrats have no interest in such a plan, as it doesn't give them any political advantage. Their issue is not with the Court in general, but with THIS Court in particular, simply because it makes rulings they don't like.
Which is why this is a non-starter.
Jeff Jacoby argued against life tenure.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/07/10/jacoby/wNshwlt4vxIYE50yINA0JO/story.html
You are right. It has to be done by constitutional amendment, and it can not apply to any Justices serving at the time of ratification.
Sure it can. An amendment can change the rules mid-game. That's not to say it's a good idea of course.
You’d need an amendment for that too.
“The judicial power of the United States shall be vested in ONE Supreme Court…” (emphasis added)
It depends on what the meaning of "one" is 🙂
“Good faith” to correct a disingenuous claim of a problem. The Rs spent 50 years playing that game, and finally getting an edge, only now it’s a problem?
Facetious posturing and lying. Who's not operating in good faith again?
I support legal abortion, too. I support the discovery of new unenumerated rights, even if they would not have been considered such back in the day. That’s in keeping with the very concept of rights retained by the people. But it’s not due to “living constitutionalism”. That’s a dirty phrase that exists primarily to let the power mongers accrete more power to themselves, sans amendment, of the type corruption exists to manipulate, getting in the way.
Well, they do call the GOP "the Stupid party" for reasons. They're terrible at being proactive, for one thing.
Yes, it would be possible for an amendment to be designed that would address actual public concerns, without being guaranteed to hand control of the Court to Democrats. Without the guarantee, of course, it would lose a lot of Democratic support.
Your proposal to limit random selection to only the Justices who've been on the Court longer than 18 years would, at this time anyway, immunize all the liberals on the Court. Now, if it were combined with delayed application, so that all the current justices were subject to that risk, it would amount to simple random selection. But...
Given that the Court is currently 6-3, any element of random selection would strongly favor the Democrats. So you can see why the GOP establishment is opposed: When you've got a win locked in under the current rules, why would you want to change the rules?
I think we're all thinking too small, anyway. Partisan dominance of the Court is a second order consideration, the real problem is that the Court predictably favors the federal government over the states. This is, before anything else, the basis on which the members of the Court are selected, after all. It has been since the days of FDR.
Ideally, we'd hand control over the composition of the court to some state level arrangement, such as replacing the Senate's confirmation power with a vote of state Governors. But even staffing the court by random selection from circuit court judges would be a step up.
But, realistically? Nothing is happening on the amendment front unless we have a constitutional convention. The Senate sure as hell isn't going to give up its share of control over the composition of the Court.
Problem is, term limits on SCOTUS judges isn't actually a good idea. For a few reasons.
1. It takes someone who has an expert understanding of the law, and kicks them off the court, while they still have that expertise and are willing to use it on behalf of the government. That's wasteful. It's like taking a best selling author (Stephen King, Tom Clancy, etc), and saying "Nope, you've been writing 18 years. No more writing any books for you!"
2. It raises the question of what judges do "after" they are kicked off the SCOTUS, and various ethical concerns. Most judges "judge" until they retire (or die). But take someone who joins the SCOTUS, but then is kicked off. Do they join the board of a company? Do they get a different role? Did some of their decisions play a role in their future employer's choice? There are number of practical concerns.
3. It reduces Judicial independence. Judicial independence is a strong third branch of the government. But start instituting term limits, forcing switching of the justices....it reduces that independence. And it opens the floor for more dramatic changes in the future. Why 18 years? Why not 15 years now? Or 10 years?
4. It doesn't really solve the political ramifications. The whole idea is that it "evens out" the current nomination process. But the judges can read 18 years as well as anyone else. And if a judge is at 17 years, but has a Congress she agrees with politically...why not just retire then? It's one thing if you think you may have another 5, 10 years in you. But when you "know" you'll be gone in a year...the political calculus gets very different.
-
18 years is a long time.
And you act like there have been no retired Justices before. Long enough to get a lot of expertise and assure a lot of independence.
Your concern about early retirements seems speculating your way into an issue that may or may not come to pass.
Yes. The Presidential Commission on SCOTUS Final Report notes that 18 years is notably long as compared to term limits in place in the U.S. and abroad. 12 years would be more of a median limit.
Now, maybe the U.S. Supreme Court is uniquely impressive, but it does appear to me that other courts are doing pretty well.
Also, until the 1970s, 15 years was the standard number of years a justice was on the Supreme Court. The Chief Justice -- other than the long terms of Marshall and Taney -- also tended not to be on that long.
It's common place to game out the ways a "fix" to a situation may be broken by simple common actions. Like anticipating a storm may overwhelm a dam.
Failing to anticipate these is the sign of a weak mind.
Simple common actions, eh?
Or, maybe Justices will like their jobs more than their partisanship.
Given how many Justices die in the seat, I don't think this is a high probability issue.
You're just buying trouble. If it's an issue, we fix it when it comes up.
"1. It takes someone who has an expert understanding of the law, and kicks them off the court, while they still have that expertise and are willing to use it on behalf of the government. That’s wasteful. It’s like taking a best selling author (Stephen King, Tom Clancy, etc), and saying “Nope, you’ve been writing 18 years. No more writing any books for you!”"
Remind us again: What was your opinion about overturning Chevron?
A poor analogy. Judges are supposed to be experts in construing legal texts, and then rendering unbiased judgements.
It may be that bureaucrats who deal with air pollution know a lot more about air pollution than judges know about air pollution. But Chevron (while it survived) concerned the matter of construing legal texts about air pollution (etc.) Which is back on judicial home turf. Legal texts.
And no one, while still sober, has ever claimed that government bureaucrats are hired, or promoted, for their talent or inclination in rendering unbiased judgements.
1 - This is the same argument against terms limits on other government officials. And yet, they're widely popular. How are supreme court justices unique here?
2 - Judges get to leave their positions whenever they want. It's not indentured servitude. What do these justices do now when they retire? It looks like the same issues we have when AGs or other government officials or politicians retire.
3 - Do term limits reduce institutional independence for the president? Congress? Why is lifetime tenure necessary for this branch of government but no other?
4 - It makes the supreme court more responsive to the electorate because it will shift its politics more evenly over the period the term limit covers. If the nation goes more liberal on average, the court will more slowly move in that direction. We already manage how to refill a term limited position that is emptied sooner than expected.
The larger theme of your complaint here is that the Supreme Court is an exception to the same issues faced by the other two branches of government and the personnel solutions that work for the latter two should not be considered for the former. You haven't offered any explanation here for why the Supreme Court is exceptional in this way.
1. Which government officials are you thinking about? I can't think of any federal positions...besides POTUS. And we've had lifetime judges for a long time.
2. But they generally don't, except to flat out retire (not take second careers). Yes, I'm sure you can find a few exceptions. But a majority of judges serve until they die or retire. They don't take second careers. That removes the revolving government-lobbyist cycle (at least for judges).
3. There are no term limits for Congressmen. In many ways, the Presidency is a bit different, but there are real concerns there over dictatorships and pseudo-kingships that don't exist in the other two branches
4. The SCOTUS is not supposed to be responsive to the populous. That's not its jobs. Its job is to interpret the laws and Constitution. If the populous wants different policies, then they vote in different Congressmen and different presidents who promise to make different laws. If they population wants to change the Constitution, then they due it via Congressional Amendment. Then the SCOTUS interprets that.
5. The larger theme is this. The SCOTUS, in conjunction with the US Constitution, is a large brake on bare majorities of 51% making wild new changes to the law and the governing system too quickly. That's why the Constitution exists. And that's why the SCOTUS exists.
Congress, in conjunction with the Presidency, has acted far too often in history to pass laws and policies that infringe on freedom of speech, Freedom of the Press, freedom of just about anything. The Constitution was just a piece of paper....but that in conjunction with the independent SCOTUS acts as a large brake on the bare majorities making serious changes to our freedoms. When you make the SCOTUS more "pliable" and "responsive"...you erode the protections for our freedoms.
I would think that existing justices would have to be grandfathered in and that would give conservatives a long period of control. When the limits do start taking effect the court would be rebalancing anyway and term limits might limit conservative losses. Under term limits conservative Presidents also get picks. Might be good to consider this idea more seriously.
Again, the arguments aren't specifically to conservative justices. They are general arguments, about why term limits is a "bad idea" and doesn't really solve the problem that is trying to be solved.
My argument here is purely political and I don't think it is a bad idea for conservatives to support term limits. I like term limits because I think the current political gamesmanship leads to unhealthy confirmation battles and that good candidates get excluded because they are too old. And that "too old" label seems to be getting lower.
If Republicans wanted to engage on this issue in good faith, and work towards a new Amendment that has overwhelming bipartisan support, then Rs could absolutely address that when drafting the Amendment’s language.
Why does good faith require the Republicans to accept that there is a problem with the constitutional structure of the Supreme Court ?
Under what plan? You guys don't get to both argue that the proposal was too vague and underspecified and then attack specifics of it that don't exist.
MAGA-do!
There is a good blog post (or several) to be written about all of this. That said, my original verdict still stands: If it was possible to do a constitutional amendment like this, it wouldn't be necessary to. So it's all a massive waste of time to argue about.
It’s another one if those “it’s a good and necessary idea but it won’t happen because Republicans oppose it” situations.
You mean a supermajority will not support it.
Well, that’s the whole point of making constitutions and amendments supermajority processes. If most people can’t agree on a fundamental rule of how government operates, it probably should not be a rule. One faction’s thwarted desires is that very reason! Mostly because it is the result of power-hungry charismatics exercising the one true superpower that exists, whipping the masses into a temporary frenzy.
Isn’t that the claim against Trump? That he’s good at that, recycling known, and in some cases, disreputable (but proven!) techniques, like immigration-jobs, and immigration-racism siren songs?
Do you really wanna mess with that, for advantage on a single policy issue, in such a millieu? Just who the hell do you think will go after changes?
So the policy is good. But also the procedure blocking the policy is good.
Once again reading GOP agency out of the equation.
"If it was possible to do a constitutional amendment like this, it wouldn’t be necessary to. "
I think you need to specify, then, exactly why you think it is necessary to do. In detail. Because I'm not seeing the connection between necessity and possibility.
The reason it's not possible, (Without a convention, anyway.) is that any proposal which predictably advantages one party is a non-starter because the opposing party is strongly motivated to oppose it, and any proposal that doesn't predictably advantage one party is a non-starter because nobody is strongly motivated to support it. The action in Congress is, not entirely, but more than sufficiently, self interested.
But, what does this have to do with why changing how the composition of the Court is determined is "necessary"?
In fact, it's not necessary, it's just favored by Democrats because you lost control of the Court, which now no longer predictably rules the way you'd like them to. The sky would not fall if the present rules were retained.
The fundamental problem that this solution aims to solve is that the courts have become a partisan trench war extension of politics. It's not a good solution for that problem, to be sure, but it's an attempted solution all the same. And exactly because everything in the US is a toxic partisan trench war, the Republicans will oppose anything proposed by a Democratic politician without a second thought, making the whole idea a non-starter. On the other hand, if the American body politic was able to have a mature conversation about policy, it would be able to come up with reasonable compromise candidates for the Supreme Court, and none of this would be necessary.
"The fundamental problem that this solution aims to solve is that the courts have become a partisan trench war extension of politics."
They were that decades ago, you're just concerned that you're losing the trench war now. You're not anti-war if you only develop an interest in ending a war when the battle turns and you're losing.
Martinned2 isn't losing anything.
You're telepathying even more than usual.
The fundamental problem that this solution aims to solve is that the courts have become a partisan trench war extension of politics. It’s not a good solution for that problem, to be sure, but it’s an attempted solution all the same.
Talk us through why a constitutional amendment (presumably about SCOTUS term limits ?) even qualifies as a "not good" solution to partisan trench war ?
Term limits make the partisan split of the Supreme Court more temporary, which is arguably at least some kind of solution to the problem. But a better solution still would be a reform that forced bipartisan consensus over Supreme Court appointments, like a supermajority requirement for confirmation backed up by something unpleasant if the politicians can't agree on a candidate by a given deadline.
Term limits make the partisan split of the Supreme Court more temporary, which is arguably at least some kind of solution to the problem.
Why so ? If you have an odd number of Justices you necessarily have a different number of Justices appointed by Republican Presidents and Democratic Presidents. The existence of a partisan split is a consequence of "personnel is policy" on the court - ie who gets picked as a Justice reasonably reliably predicts what decisions they will make. You only avoid that by consistently picking absolutely anal textualists, who are content to ignore the policy implications of their judgements. Good luck with that.
Term limits would simply increase the frequency of partisan fights about who to put on the court.
The reason "everything in the US is a toxic partisan trench war" is that the US has abandoned the original design of its basic federalist structure. You can't compress every conceivable matter of government into a single binary 2 party choice. While also expanding your jurisdiction over a large and diverse territory of different states and communities.
I'm not sure how the rest of your comment flows from the first sentence, but it's definitely true that a two-party system is very flawed.
The original constitutional design here in the US had a very large component of subsidiarity: The federal government was given authority over a short list of enumerated subjects, and everything else was explicitly either prohibited or retained by the states.
The federal government was an island of enumerated powers in a sea of state powers.
Converting the interstate commerce power into a general police power, and otherwise ditching the concept of enumerated powers, has largely abolished that element of subsidiarity, resulting in exactly what the federal structure aimed at avoiding: A unitary state where local opinion got overridden.
Naturally you get a toxic war when those people over there are telling these people over here what they can do.
There is no general federal police power. That's come up again and again on this blog.
You really shouldn't elide the Civil War Amendments in this discussion. ML is a Lost Causer, dunno what's your excuse.
A unitary state where local opinion got overridden.
You think the US is a unitary state? That federalism is no longer a thing?
No, you don't. Sometime you should try to just say something isn't right but not be superlative and dramatic about it.
"President Biden launched an attack on the independence of the federal judiciary on July 29th when he endorsed the packing of the U.S. Supreme Court."
Holy hell! Did Biden propose that [packing]? Better check notes:
1. No Immunity for Crimes a Former President Committed in Office
2. Term Limits for Supreme Court Justices
3. Binding Code of Conduct for the Supreme Court
[Lifts each rock, looks underneath]
Where's the packing part?
That was adequately explained in the OP: Term limits for Supreme court justices would predictably remove conservative justices, resulting in opportunities to replace them with liberals.
It's true that a term limit proposal could be constructed that didn't do this. Democrats would not support such a proposal, since packing the Court is there only motivation for pursuing judicial term limits.
Okay. I'm totally on the same page now, dude. I just needed to apply some wild, circuitous logic to get there
Only motivation!
Once again Brett starts assuming bad faith, and thus is against all things Dem proposes. Compromise isn't even on his radar.
Saves on thinking!
Gee, and to think that some people take umbrage when Sarcastr0 points out that everything you ever say is based on mind reading.
Yes, because it's stupid to confuse inferring motives from behavior, and mind reading.
When did Democrats ever have any interest in 'reforming' the Court when they controlled it?
When did Democrats control the Supreme Court?
Thanks, but "Court packing" already has a definition, which is to substantially increase the number of justices to allow a sitting President to appoint all the new justices, who would presumably out-vote the current justices.
Or are you hitting the high road with, "anything Democrats want is "court-packing"; anything the Republicans want is "court-reform"?
“Court packing” is arranging for enough vacancies to appear all at once that you can appoint a controlling majority of the Court. There are lots of ways to do this: Adding seats, kicking existing Justices out of their seats, making life so terrible for the Justices that they resign, or even just outright killing them.
The only reason that expanding the Court is the normal approach to Court packing is that it’s generally assumed that you need to accomplish Court packing by legislation, not amendment, because you’d likely never have the votes for an amendment to hand the Court to a particular party. And you’re trying to avoid conspicuous criminality…
Expanding the Court to create enough new seats that you can immediately take control of the Court is clearly constitutional, even if it’s a bad idea.
By contrast, kicking enough justices off the Court by statute to allow you to appoint a majority is clearly unconstitutional, due to life tenure. In principle you could just impeach and convict 3-4 justices, constitutionally, but the odds of getting enough votes to do so are pretty low.
And, yes, splitting the Court into a working and a ceremonial court, and booting some of the Justices into the latter, IS kicking Justices off of the Court. There's only one Supreme court, constitutionally.
So nobody normally proposes Court packing by subtraction. Unless they don’t actually give a damn if what they’re proposing is constitutional, because they’d actually relish a big fight with the Court.
Don't feel too badly about this adverse turn in your life, Calabresi. You've joined a distinguished ash heap of lawyers driven to insanity or prison in service of the Orange Caligula
The Biden-Harris plan is thus unconstitutional and should not be taken seriously by anyone.
Says Calabresi in a 10,000 word rant taking the Biden-Harris plan extremely seriously.
It does seem to get a lot of attention for something not to be taken seriously.
Here's the link to the Presidential Commission on the Supreme Court so you can read the pages of its report on term limits:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/pcscotus/
I read through them. An interesting analysis covering the pros and the cons, talking about state courts (term and/or age limits in most states) and foreign courts (including Germany, which it cites as a leading European Court, which has both term limits and retirement age), and theoretical ways to do it by amendment and statute.
[The report doesn't make recommendations. It provides a lot of fodder for discussion by analyzing the issues.]
I'm unclear how reading this translates into some specific Biden/Harris plan as spelled out in the discussion.
Okay. In a past thread, the "leading" statutory term limit was assumed to be supported by Sheldon Whitehouse and a few others. Here's a link:
https://www.whitehouse.senate.gov/news/release/whitehouse-booker-blumenthal-padilla-introduce-new-supreme-court-term-limits-bill/
When does the proposed law kick in? Not immediately.
"This Act, and the amendments made by this Act, shall apply beginning on the date on which the first full term of a President commences pursuant to section 101 15 of title 3, United States Code, after the date of enactment of this Act."
Let's say the law passes in 2025. The law would begin when "the first full term of a President commences." 2029.
What is the proposal? A justice is nominated in the first and third year of the president's term. There is no term limit but the bill sets up a system where only nine justices have appellate jurisdiction at one time so that is the ultimate effect.
I say not a word here if this is constitutional, but just to be clear about what the proposal entails.
Biden's proposal (means left open):
"President Biden supports a system in which the President would appoint a Justice every two years to spend eighteen years in active service on the Supreme Court."
Again, not clear how this matches the professor's analysis.
There are some people -- a minority of the Democrats -- who support actual court expansion but these proposals are not that.
If we're going to be cerebral and academic, there's no rush. We can wait and see what The Presidential Commission on the Supreme Court set up by the next Republican President comes up with 🙂
LOL!
Nothing this senile dope (or his puppet masters) wants, particularly where a constitutional amendment would be required, amounts to a hill of beans. He is the lamest of lame ducks and should probably just spend the rest of his time avoiding the press. His team of handlers has had a spotty record at best on that front but I'm sure they'll give it the ol' college try. The finish line is in sight!
Wow. Talk about a tantrum. And an unjustified one at that.
1. Biden never said that he was calling for imposition of term limits by statute. Although he didn't specify a constitutional amendment, that lack of specification does not create a reasonable inference that he is calling for a term limit statute. At most, it signals that Congress should investigate the feasibility of accomplishing term limits by either statute or amendment.
2. Term limits are not the same as court packing. Not even close. The assumption that it would immediately flip the court left is based on the unsupported assumption that the term limits would apply to the current justices. But even if that were the case, it still wouldn't be court packing. It would simply equalize the balance of appointing justices according to the parties that win presidential elections as opposed to random chance and/or strategic retirement. Republicans could still appoint justices by winning the presidency.
3. Absolutely hysterical that Calabresi is throwing such a huge fit and accusing everyone of bad faith based on the idea of statutory term limits for SCOTUS justices -- an idea he once endorsed! Given that he himself once took that position, you would think that he would allow for even the possibility that such a reform could be sought in good faith. Source: Akhil Reed Amar & Steven G. Calabresi, Term Limits for the High Court, Wash. Post
(Aug. 9, 2002), https://tinyurl.com/2knj9fwn.
The old Steve is dead to the new Steve.
This is going to be a real constitutional mess if Democrats try to institute term limits without a constitutional amendment. All of the sitting justices will have standing to sue, but they will all have to recuse themselves.
-dk
Haha.
If they could be relied upon to faithfully recuse, we may not even be discussing this.
Justice Thomas is back in the news for neglecting to disclose additional flights. So this issue isn't going away anytime soon.
I don't know if this has been addressed above, but when the bill is challenged, it will probably be in the District of Columbia. So we can be certain the trial judge will rule that the bill is constitutional. The Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit will almost certainly affirm.
When it gets to the newly enlarged Supreme Court, if Roberts, Thomas, and Alito try to participate, the Court will be divided 6 to 6....which means the decision below stands. After that, we would have a 6 to 3 progressive majority on the Court.
And we will be one step closer to a hot civil war.
Take it to AO3. Add some unrequited gay lust and I think you have a hit.
The point they are making is that SCOTUS is trying to make Trump king, the US doesn't have Kings, so a Congress can limit the Supreme Court, there is precedence, and they can do it again.
Well, it's a stupid point, because the Supreme court didn't try to make Trump a king, and their ruling was as applicable to Biden or any other President as Trump.
The point they're actually trying to make is that they've lost their patience with the Court daring to rule contrary to their wishes, and that the Court has a choice of either rolling over and playing dead, or getting into a fight with Congress that ends with them becoming a rubber stamp.
"Technically, Biden and Harris are probably calling for a statute..."
Do two conditionals in the beginning of a sentence cancel each other out, or does it make the sentence doubly conditional? Technically, should we probably believe that your outrage over this is in good faith?