Today in Supreme Court History: July 13, 1787

7/13/1787: The Articles of Confederation Congress enacts the Northwest Ordinance.

The Articles of Confederation

Comments

[Dan Schiavetta]

Julian v. United States, 463 U.S. 1308 (decided July 13, 1983): request for bail denied by Rehnquist because grant of certiorari appeared very unlikely (applicant had been caught with drugs while trying to board flight to Peru -- sure sounds like a flight risk to me)

Capital Cities Media v. Toole, 463 U.S. 1303) decided July 13, 1983): refusing to rule on stay (affirmed by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court) of order prohibiting press disclosure of jury photos and other jury information; denial was without prejudice to renew pending appeal of related orders; later the Court denied a stay by remanding to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court for a decision on reasons for upholding the prohibition; on remand the Pennsylvania court held it did not have jurisdiction for this application (now they tell us!)

Carter v. United States, 75 S.Ct. 911 (decided July 13, 1955): Frankfurter denies motion to extend time to file for certiorari; rejected “new counsel” and “busy with criminal matters” excuse (“sorry, I have to put the Supreme Court on the back burner because I have more important things to do!”)

[Syd Henderson]

So the Supreme Court on the this date just refused to do anything?

So we get the Northwest Ordinance, which is certainly important to the history of the US, and about the only thing I remember the Confederation doing after the Revolution (well that, and creating the events that led to the Constitution) but did it result in any Supreme Court decisions?

[The Margrave of Azilia]

A key part of the Northwest Ordinance banned slavery in the area it covered. Slavery in the territories was the major constitutional battle in the runup to the Civil War. And the Supreme Court tried weighing in on it in a little case called Dred Scott.

[Syd Henderson]

Interesting that one of the effects of Dred Scott was to keep Congress from banning slavery in the territories when the Northwest Ordinance did exactly that before the Constitution even existed. On the other hand, all the territories south of the Ohio became slave states. (Except West Virginia, which wasn't ever a territory anyway.)

[Frank Drackman]

Yes? Customer Service? I’d like to return this Republic, it’s not working

[Mr. Bumble]

+1

[Sarcastr0]

Dude who posts unserious yet vile political nonsense has complaints the political system he’s engaging in is too full of nonsense.

[Frank Drackman]

For someone who calls himself “Sarcastr0” you don’t seem to get Sarcasm. May I suggest a Rectal Corn-Cob-ectomy?

[hobie]

These misanthropes destroy American comity and polity then bitch about the wreckage. Seems about right

[Frank Drackman]

Oh “Come on! (Man!)” did your Mommy not lay out your “Big Boy” pants? (has there ever been an Amurican POTUS that term was used for?”
We have a demented person serving as POTUS, who just said the main cause of death of “Girls” (and what is it with him and the sniffing young girls hair? Sure I’d like to do it too, but there are certain “thing s” such as Pedophilia laws (you really think Ashley Biden made up the Shower Story?)
Is “Bullets” (I’ll give him this much, he didn’t pronounce it “Bull-Wets” like Lurch Kerry would have)
Actually more than 500,000 “girls” were killed by a legally sanctioned procedure (Thanks to “45” only in those States where murdering unborn women is legal)
Seriously, can you go play with yourself? You’re about as hard to refute as Trig Pailin

Frank

[hobie]

I mean, it's like

"Turning and turning in the widening gyre..."

every day up in this bitch

[Frank Drackman]

Wenden und wenden in dem aufweifenten Kreisel…..??
I learned that in High Screwel, in Yates original German
Seriously, to quote the great Foghorn Leghorn,
“I say go away boy! Yew botherin’ Me!”

Frank “Slouching towards Atlanta If these Mongoloids with the TSA stop jerking off” (Always fly First Class but refuse to pay for TSA Pre-Check, I have my morals)

Frank

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Breaking News: Midwit bureaucrat who contributes no economic value to society and only burdens us Makers, cries when being called out for being a worthless Taker.

Film @11

[JoeFromtheBronx]

I have had trouble finding a good book that provides a full summary of the Articles of Confederation, including an analysis of its text, and a discussion of how it was applied. The usual accounts might talk about how it was written and ratified (with little detail on its extended text), skipping to when it was deemed a failure.

OTOH, I know of a (if somewhat outdated) book on the Confederate Constitution, which was in effect for about half as long.

The AOC and Northwest Ordinance are worth more study.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

That would be an interesting subject. I’m not even sure when the actually came into effect, since the first Continental Congress was in 1774, I think, and it was a work in progress for a long time.

What I remember most from reading the AoC was the huge style difference with the Constitution. The Constitution has short well-written paragraphs, good organization, the appearance of having been worked over by people who cared about style and readability. The AoC is a real chore. It has long paragraphs packed full of unrelated topics, lots of repetition (“in congress assembled” comes to mind), and feels like no one really cared, not even a first draft. On the other hand, it’s been ages since I did read it, and maybe I’d feel differently now.

One other thing stands out in my memory: the AoC says membership is irrevocable and amendment requires unanimity, and the constitution convention itself was advertised as something else to avoid this problem of replacing something which claimed it could not be replaced. But again, that was a long time ago, and it doesn’t much matter now how illegally the Constitution was conceived and birthed.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

The Articles of Confederation were ratified in 1781.

It starts reasonably enough but some of the middle articles are hard going. Article IX goes on for pages of long paragraphs in my pocket constitution book. It then is okay until a long finale.

I generally think the best way to think of it is that the Constitution is a whole new system of government which the Declaration of Independence says the people have a right to demand. This is why it was so important for it to be ratified by popular conventions.

If it was simply an "amendment" to the AOC, it very well might be illegitimately obtained.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

I went back and looked it up. This is what I was referring to:

Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determinations of the united states, in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them, unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united states, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every state.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Yes. The provision comes to mind when people say we can't change the two-senator rule without unanimous approval.

(Putting aside various ways of addressing that.)

Madison in Federalist 40 grants it is "most plausible" to find unanimous approval would be necessary but the "irresistible conviction of the absurdity" of requiring it warranted the matter be "waved." Okay, James.

[Dan Schiavetta]

They didn’t submit it to the AOC Congress because they all knew Rhode Island (which had boycotted the Convention) would veto it. Any one state had veto power.

[Krayt]

What I remember most from reading the AoC was the huge style difference with the Constitution. The Constitution has short well-written paragraphs, good organization, the appearance of having been worked over by people who cared about style and readability. The AoC is a real chore. It has long paragraphs packed full of unrelated topics, lots of repetition (“in congress assembled” comes to mind), and feels like no one really cared, not even a first draft.

These peoples’ great great great great grand children went on to do things like add 2000 page amendments to state constitutions, confusing legislation with rules of what may be legislated, with an overboiled side dish of The Olive Green Mushy Asparagus of The People can simple majority change their constitution so we can bypass normal legislation because we are worthless hacks relying on transient political winds rather than well pondered changes after much deliberation 2000 pages people.

[Sarcastr0]

Constitutions and statutes do different jobs.

Precision is hard. Thus laws are long.

The Constitutional systems of states that allow a majority to amend seem weird to me as well. I don’t think it’s motivated by hackery; just laboratories of democracy trying different stuff.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Good grief no! Laws are complicated because lawyers like to quibble. Everyone understands "theft". Only lawyers pretend they need separate laws for every kind of theft.

Lawyers are exceeded in their self-esteem only by politicians.

[Dan Schiavetta]

Laws (and regulations) are written that way so as to plug loopholes.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

They create more loopholes than they plug.

You lawyers think you're the only smart people when it comes to laws, that only you know how to write laws, and that everyone else is too dumb to even understand the importance of quibbly laws. It's only valid in the circular self-fulflling world of lawyers.

"Thou shalt not steal" is a far better law than anything ever written by a lawyer or politician.

[David Nieporent]

Paging Chesterton's Fence! Chesterton's Fence to the white courtesy phone!

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

" “Thou shalt not steal” is a far better law than anything ever written by a lawyer or politician. "

The words of a disaffected, worthless write-off.

Your replacement will improve our nation.

[Sarcastr0]

Law by vibes.
A surefire way towards smaller less authoritarian government.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Laws by quibble. Hasn't worked so far.

[Sarcastr0]

I mean, it has worked. Worldwide, since the creation of the modern state.

You would give those who enforce the laws a lot of power with your no code just vibes style.
We have examples of states where the police have that kind of leeway. Do you find that a more freeing alternative?

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Hitler worked. Stalin worked. Lots of systems worked, before and after lawyers were invented. Mussolini and Hitler became dictators legally, so did every Soviet dictator after Lenin.

Are you actually trying to convince me that lawyering works?

[Sarcastr0]

Are you saying all states with a legal code are bad?

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

You know nothing of what I would replace lawyers with. You lawyers think if it ain't lawyered-up, it's chaos. and you absolutely cannot fathom any system without lawyers.

You remind me of a commenter on here a few years ago who accused me and others of lying when we said roads and dams had been built by private people long before government. He literally refused to believe that roads and dams were possible without government.

News to use: lawyers are not indispensable, and their lack does not equate to chaos and dictatorship.

[Sarcastr0]

I’m not a lawyer.
I’m just not a radical. And have a Burkean respect for what’s worked.

You conspicuously attack the need for lawyers over and over and then don’t explain your grand plan.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

You exhibit profound resentment toward educated, credentialed, accomplished, careful, professional people.

They are your betters.

[Old Smokin' Egg]

Right. Laws should be simple statements of general principles, and the details can be left up to the people in charge of enforcing them.

And that's how we got our overweening regulatory state: Congress passes laws full of high-sounding generalities, and leaves it up to the executive branch to decide what they really mean.

[Dan Schiavetta]

Our idea of three branches of government and separation of powers, so taken for granted by us now, is a creature of the Article I - II - III business of the Constitution. It didn't exist before. Congress was the whole thing. There was no "Executive", just committees assigned temporary things and which reported to Congress. There was no "Judiciary" -- the only courts were the state courts.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

The AOC gave Congress limited power to create courts to settle certain types of disputes. For instance:

"appointing courts for the trial of piracies and felonies committed on the high seas; and establishing courts; for receiving and determining finally appeals in all cases of captures; provided that no member of congress shall be appointed a judge of any of the said courts"

[Dan Schiavetta]

Thanks.

Though those were more like committees. Congress could abolish them if it wanted.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Lower federal courts are optional too. Certain ones have been abolished from time to time.

Yes, Art. III firmly sets in place at least the Supreme Court.

(The Confederate Congress never got around to passing an enabling act to put one in place.)

[Frank Drackman]

Little recognized is that the Chairman of the Ways & Means Committee can get the 1040 of any Amurican, without a warrant, FISA approval, Sun-penis, the POTUS can’t, the FBI can’t, but whoever the Chucklehead in charge now, can. Same with their “Sub-penis”power, they’re not a Court, as much as I like MTG, she’s got no right to go through my business records, My complaint about “January 6th”? Didn’t need to be an In-sure- erection at all, like that poor excuse for a gallows would have supported Jerry Nadlers fat ass, it was enough to let them know who holds the power in this “Klingers” (ht Reverend Revolting)

Frank

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Getting the job done alert: SCOTUS bled into July this term.

During the beginning of COVID, with May arguments, they handed down more opinions by July 9th. A per curiam death penalty ruling was handed down on 7/14 regarding a later development.

[Krayt]

So Rhode Island, and Providence Plantations were two separate states back then? Or some kind of variation on bipartite Oxford comma thingie was going on?

[Dan Schiavetta]

Rhode Island shares with the eleven Confederate states one distinction and it has nothing to do with plantations. Can you guess what it is?

[Krayt]

I was gonna say that, unlike most later states, none were named after local indigenous tribes or regions, but apparently Massachusetts was a local group.

ETA: Apparently Connecticut, while not a tribe, was the local native word for the main river there.

[Dan Schiavetta]

The answer is that these were the 12 states which joined the Union unwillingly, by coercion. The 11 Confederate states had to agree to the 14th Amendment (among other things). As for Rhode Island, which had boycotted the Constitutional Convention, the Washington Administration finally notified it in 1790 that if it didn’t ratify, it would be treated as a foreign power, with tariffs, etc. R.I. grudgingly held a ratification convention which ratified by a vote of 32-30.

[Krayt]

One history teacher explained they could only get away with post-Civil War changes to those states if you viewed them as having left, for some issues, and never having left for others. There was no synoptic view of them.

[Dan Schiavetta]

True. Lincoln (wisely, at the time) never recognized the C.S.A. and at most considered those states to be "in rebellion". Which means there should have been no conditions set on them ceasing their rebellion.

[Frank Drackman]

Wow, wonder if he made that distinction in his Emancipation Proclamation? ( OK you Slaves in the areas still on Rebellion? youre Free! You in
Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, Delaware? Not so fast! Tote dat Barge! Lift dat Bale!

Frank

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

There were some interesting maritime law considerations too, such as whether you can blockade your own ports, whether a blockade of rebellious ports is an implicit recognition of their independent state, etc. IANAL and I wasn't when I read TFA either, but it did shed light on some of the international legal problems faced by Lincoln, Jefferson Davis, and foreigners.

[David Nieporent]

They were considered as having left the congress, but not the country.

[John F. Carr]

We could have had a neighbor micro-state like an overgrown Andorra. Its chief industries would be maritime commerce and strip clubs. I remember a radio ad touting the superiority of Rhode Island strip clubs over Massachusetts strip clubs: "why look when you can touch?" And then we would have prosecutions for traveling in foreign commerce with the intent to grope some silicone.

[Syd Henderson]

Don't forget smuggling. Andorra makes lots of money as a tax haven, too (though more discriminating since the days of Pablo Escobar).

[Mr. Bumble]

A far cry from when the Vanderbilt's and friends vacationed there.
Oh for the days before an income tax.

[Frank Drackman]

Pretty sure “Alabama” is of Injun origin and Arkansas and Mississippi

[Krayt]

Hmmm, they must be one state as only that way does the list count as 13. But 13 is what we consider the original count. Who's to say it wasn't 14? They are conceptually separate units, perhaps not set in stone.

But if they, by internal agreement, consider themselves a combined state with one governance, that's that. So, does Rhode Island and Providence Plantations present itself with a comma, or was the comma introduced due to its inclusion, as an and phrase, in a larger comma list, itself ending with a traditional Oxford comma-and.

This is worse than asking if that building is McDonald's HQ or McDonald's' HQ. For the record, I recommend punctuating as you pronounce it, whether the pronunciation is right or wrong. For that case, the latter, reflecting "McDonald-ziz".

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Wikipedia says,

Despite its name, most of Rhode Island is on the U.S. mainland. Its official name was State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations from its beginning in 1636 until 2020, and it is referred to in that manner in the United States Constitution.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Rhode Island started as different settlements in the 17th Century. They were then united into one colony under that name.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Here is one official discussion:

https://docs.sos.ri.gov/documents/civicsandeducation/RI_Activity_Book.pdf

[Frank Drackman]

Spent 5 weeks in Newport in the hell of Navy Staff Corpse Officer training, we had to run 30 miles! (Not all at once, over the 5 weeks) wonder if they still have the Jai Alai?

Frank

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

I believe you are thinking of Miami. It’s like Providence other than it’s trashy and nobody speaks English.

[Frank Drackman]

They had it in Rhode Island back then, lots of Portuguese, and before Atlantic City and Powerball, people bet on it

[John F. Carr]

Rhode Island could have exploited a grammar technicality to claim four senators.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Another Chafee…no thanks!!

[Don Nico]

Krayt,
Rhode Island referred to hat became known a South County (still its colloquial name) and later as Washington County. The remainder of the state (now 4 counties) was known as Providence Plantations. These divisions were not two separate states.

[Mr. Bumble]

In case you missed it:
Dr.Rrruth has passed away at the age of 96.
Little known fact:
"Following the war, she went to Palestine where she joined the Haganah paramilitary group fighting for Jewish statehood that would later become Israel."

[Frank Drackman]

Sounds like a Bitter Klinger!

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

She’s a colonizer!! And having babies is the way colonizers take over a territory.

[Michael P]

July 13, 2024: Attempted assassination of Donald Trump at a campaign rally in Butler, PA.

Fortunately he does not appear to be seriously injured -- but it looked like his ear was hit by one of the early shots, so thank goodness it was not a more accurate shot.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

I can already forecast Gaslightr0s comment.

"'assassination' is doing alot of work!"

[Mr. Bumble]

A very confused situation.

[Michael P]

The Washington Post is already telling us: "Trump escorted away after loud noises at Pa. rally".

[Mr. Bumble]

Guess they didn’t see the pictures of blood on his face.
Better reporting from the Daily Mail.
Did anyone wake up Joe?

[Mr. Bumble]

From CNN:
"Secret Service agents rushed former President Donald Trump off the stage after he fell to the ground at a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania."
The most trusted name in news?

[hobie]

Guns, guns, guns. I hope the old crook is okay, though

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Democrat violence, Democrat violence, Democrat violence.

I hope Democrats face justice for their violence.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

The reported shooter was a registered Republican from a white, downscale, Republican town. Wearing a gun nut shirt. He used an AR-style rifle, which might not have seemed entirely out of place in the half-educated, superstition-hobbled Republican backwater in which the shooting occurred.

[Frank Drackman]

Sleepy Joe? he looks as demented as always

[Brett Bellmore]

In fact, it might have been this shot.

[CountmontyC]

Reason needs to open a special thread ASAP.

[CountmontyC]

Hey POTATUS Biden will you grant Kennedy Secret Service protection now?

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Biden ordered this assassination five days ago.

On CNN,

"So, we're done talking about the debate, it's time to put Trump in a bullseye.".

- President Biden ordering the assassination of his political rival

[TwelveInchPianist]

The link to incitement is clear.

[TwelveInchPianist]

This was tweeted by a Republican Congressmen. One hopes that he is mocking the similar comments about Sarah Palin, but one is unsure.

[hobie]

From the NYT:

“Those who attend Mr. Trump’s campaign rallies are subject to security screenings. They are required to enter through metal detectors, and their bags and possessions are searched for weapons and a large number of banned items.”

The new normal in American life so that you hillbillies can walk around children in a salad bar with your six iron and not feel so scared in society. Now your Orange Caligula has been shot. I absolutely hope he is okay

[CountmontyC]

What a vile person you are. Trying to blame guns when it is almost 100% certain that the assassin a leftist who believed the demonization that has come from the left.

[hobie]

Did someone throw hatchets at him, or was it fire arms? One object allows you to kill presidents and preschoolers, the other, well, you really have to practice

[CountmontyC]

Considering that ever since the immunity decision it has been discussed if Biden could order an assassination of Trump are you certain that isn't what happened? Perhaps you shouldn't be stupid fucking vile person before we learn the details.

[hobie]

Is that where you are going with this? The Democrats use a new law to assassinate Trump? What a fucking loser you are. I'm absolutely furious that someone tried to shoot an ex-president and I want to know what made it so easy. Goddammit can you people not see what you've wrought?!

[Mr. Bumble]

"Goddammit can you people not see what you’ve wrought?!"
Look in a mirror, fucktard.

[hobie]

According to you, that shooter should have had unlimited access with his gun wherever he pleased. And please don't make me find your comments where you have repeatedly said as much. Godammit I'm so sick of gun violence

[Mr. Bumble]

Have at it fucktard because I don't think I've ever said such a thing.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

I’m equally sick of whiny idiots

[CountmontyC]

You know jack shit about the details of what occurred. You don't know the shooter is, how he got his gun ir anything else but within minutes you were declaring it the fault of "easy access to guns." You are a moron.

[Kazinski]

Judging from the the marksmanship, it wasn't Seal Team 6.

[Mr. Bumble]

He might not have been that far off the mark. As I noted down thread there was speculation that Trump was hit by shrapnel from one of the teleprompters.

[Commenter_XY]

I would not make a hasty judgment, Kaz. There is more to this story.

[SimonP]

I am happy to affirm that political violence has no place in our republic.

I hope you will similarly affirm that, despite the “demonization that has come from the left,” such “demonization” is and should remain protected by the First Amendment.

I worry less about how this event may sway the election than how it may sway public sentiment in favor of a crackdown on disfavored speech. If Trump should win - okay, fine, whatever. But if he should cite this event as a justification for cracking down on the media and political opponents - well, that’s how you get actual fascism in this country, not the pansy-ass version you think Biden is responsible for,

[CountmontyC]

It hasn't been the right calling for and defending censorship. That has been entirely the left.

[SimonP]

So you agree that the First Amendment should continue to protect the “demonization” of Trump?

[CountmontyC]

So you agree that the left demonized Trump? As I pointed out all of the support for censorship has been on the left. The POTUS whose administration actually used censorship was the Biden Maladministration. The right has been supporting free speech rights. That doesn't mean that the left should be excused for their demonization but that it shouldn't be done by the government.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"I hope you will similarly affirm that, despite the “demonization that has come from the left,” such “demonization” is and should remain protected by the First Amendment."

Unless you call it stochastic terrorism, of course.

[SimonP]

“Stochastic terrorism” can occur in either direction, and is problematic either way.

To date, rhetoric on the right has been much more violent than anything we’re hearing on the left. The left has been apocalyptic, to be sure, and that could contribute to pushing some “lone wolf” to attempt an assassination. But no one on the left is talking about “second amendment remedies” or being the left’s “retribution.”

If you have a suggestion for how we can regulate speech to prevent “stochastic terrorism,” I’m not necessarily opposed. As someone who leans left, this event really pisses me off - whether it turns out to have been a false flag or whether it turns out to be a leftist panicked beyond reason over Trump. We had enough to deal with. Now we have to deal with a bunch of frothing lunatics like yourself, eager to purge your political opponents.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"To date, rhetoric on the right has been much more violent than anything we’re hearing on the left."

I disagree, but hey, there’s no way to quantify something like that.

"If you have a suggestion for how we can regulate speech to prevent “stochastic terrorism,” I’m not necessarily opposed."

Of course you can’t. People who think, for example, that Trump is an existential threat to democracy need to be free to make that case, even if the runs the risk of others overreacting.

"Now we have to deal with a bunch of frothing lunatics like yourself, eager to purge your political opponents."

Again, I disagree. I think you’re the frothing lunatic. And your comments are regularly more hostile than anything I post.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Right, you're people are just out there assassinating presidents, shooting up Congressional baseball games, and burning down cities.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Don't forget the attempt on Kavanaugh.

[David Nieporent]

Is it properly called "demonization" if it's true?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

To worthless right-wing rube CountymontyC:

The reported Trump shooter was a white, male registered Republican.

He resided with a Republican family in a white, downscale, Republican community.

He was a disaffected, half-educated gun nut who still lived with his parents (who either permitted him to carry an AR-style rifle around or were too stupid to know what was happening in their house).

You, CountmontyC, are a profoundly uninformed, reckless dope who is probably the audience former professor Volokh had in mind when he started this flaming shitstorm of a white, male, right-wing, faux libertarian blog.

[CountmontyC]

A hate post by the REV. ARTHUR L. KIRKLAND addressed to me. What an honor.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

What do you expect Democrats to do when the leader of their party ordered the assassination?

Blame Biden not guns, you sick and twisted mf'er.

[CountmontyC]

To be honest Biden Maladministration being involved would not be a surprise. They were discussing if a POTUS could order his political opponents assassination ever since the immunity decision.

[Kazinski]

According to the NYPost "The shooter, identified as a Chinese man, was in a sniper position located hundreds of yards away from Trump’s podium in Butler, Pa. as he spoke to a campaign crowd, sources said."

So the shooter was not in the venue.

[CountmontyC]

Imagine if the shooter is a Chinese national who recently entered the USA illegally.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

They're just good people trying to find a safe home!

[Kazinski]

James O’Keefe just posted a picture of the purported shooter, he doesn’t look Chinese to me, The NYPost had that detail wrong.

https://x.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1812311139986166210?t=H46s_yKbY64dRJXhLLGFnw&s=19

[not guilty]

The link is to a page that doesn't exist. Do you regard James O'Keefe as a reliable curator of photographs?

[Michael P]

Others agree with O'Keefe. The Failing New York Times was just wrong yet again. https://apnews.com/live/election-biden-trump-campaign-updates-07-13-2024?taid=66930e723162580001097add

[Kazinski]

The link didn't work for me either, but I found it again on X in O'Keefe 's feed.
https://x.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1812311139986166210?t=_iuiKsP9zIO5R0s39y_sPQ&s=19

Maybe it was taken down and reposted for some reason.

[Kazinski]

You probably won’t believe this either but Techno_fog who is an anonymous lawyer who blogs at substack at the Reactionary, speculates that the shooter is Thomas Crooks, an Actblue paid “volunteer”.

You won’t like this link either
https://truthsocial.com/@techno_fog/112783040668897510

And now NBC and others are confirming.

[Kazinski]

I should have looked closer, that's a donation record to actblue for 15.00, not a paystub with a 15.00 rate.

He is giving Actblue money, not taking their money.

[Don Nico]

hobie,
"They are required to enter through metal detectors, and their bags and possessions are searched for weapons and a large number of banned items."
This is nothing new. It certainly was in place in the mid-1980's

[not guilty]

Here's wishing Donald Trump a speedy recovery from his injuries.

[Mr. Bumble]

He seems to be OK. One report is saying he was hit by shrapnel (glass/plastic) from one of the teleprompters which was sruck by a bullet. Like I said upthread; very confused situation.

[Mr. Bumble]

"Six iron"; you're such a fucktard.

[hobie]

Fuck off. I'm really tired of seeing my children and presidents being assassinated by guns

[Mr. Bumble]

Sympathies for your "assassinated" children, but you're still a fucktard.

[CountmontyC]

You are a vile asshole.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

You fuck off. I’m tired of seeing "my children" molested by homosexual Democrats.

[Frank Drackman]

Last POTUS assassinated was JFK, and by a Commie with a gun(Bolt Action rifle) I was 16 months old. Sorry that your children have been killed, maybe you should move to a safer neighborhood.

Frank

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Kennedy was assassinated by the CIA.

[Dan Schiavetta]

The truth is, that shootings like this happen is perfectly fine with the VC’ers. They have no solutions to mass shootings or assassinations. They may express concern at times like this but at bottom are not worried about it at all. It’s the price of liberty, I suppose.

[Mr. Bumble]

"The truth is, that shootings like this happen is perfectly fine with the VC’ers. "
That's not even remotely true and neither is the rest of your comment.

[CountmontyC]

Actually the leftist VCers seem quite comfortable with assassination attempts of Trump if so ordered by Biden. I mean how many of them said the immunity decision would allow it?

[not guilty]

My take is that the commenters who said that the SCOTUS decision would immunize President Biden if he ordered the assassination of Donald Trump did so in order to criticize the reasoning of the decision.

When the D.C. Circuit asked Trump's counsel if his position would immunize a president who ordered Seal Team 6 to take out his opponent, that was then widely seen as an attempt to ridicule the position that Team Trump was taking. Who could have predicted that that hypothetical would ultimately become the law of the land?

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Wait, you a seasoned lawyer, think a President is immune from prosecution if he orders the military to kill a civilian on Americam soil?

You are a first class idiot. That's Nige levels of stupidity.

[not guilty]

That is indeed the upshot (pun intended) of Chief Justice Roberts's reasoning. Commanding the armed forces is a core constitutional power of the presidency.

Such an order may be unlawful depending on the circumstances, and military personnel may be duty bound to disobey it. But giving the order is an act for which the President is immune from criminal prosecution.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

You are a first class retard. In what context is that a lawful order? Further, explain how it wasn't legal before the SCOTUS ruling?

Lay of the MSNBC, it's rotting what's left of your brain.

[not guilty]

"In what context is that a lawful order?"

See 10 U.S.C. § 252.

"Further, explain how it wasn’t legal before the SCOTUS ruling?"

As I said, whether such an order is unlawful or not depends on the circumstances. Last week's SCOTUS ruling clarified that a former president is immune from criminal prosecution for his acts as commander-in-chief, whether lawful at the outset or not.

And what do you think that insults contribute to this discussion?

[Michael P]

Having the authority to call up the armed forces to suppress a rebellion does not by itself translate into the authority to order a homeland assassination. As a frequent commenter on these pages would say, show your work: explain exactly how you think the power you claim exists follows from the authorities you cite.

[not guilty]

I am happy to do that. The language of 10 U.S.C. § 252 is quite broad and sweeping:

Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

"Whenever" and "use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary" covers a lot of territory. Suppose the leader of the opposition party had a paramilitary force at his disposal supporting him and wreaking havoc. I don't claim that it is likely to happen, but if it did, a presidential order for the military to take out the leader of the rebellion (I think the euphemism is to terminate with extreme prejudice) would be within the ambit of what § 252 authorizes.

[Michael P]

You have only posited a situation where the target is not a civilian but a belligerent in rebellion. That's not what you claimed earlier.

[not guilty]

Michael P, you asked me to explain exactly how I think the power I claim exists follows from the authorities I cite. I did exactly that.

The statutory language which I quoted fixes a highly subjective standard as to what the President believes, both as his judgment as to when circumstances make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, as well as he considers necessary. The statute does not include such phrases indicating an objective standard as "reasonably believes" or "reasonably necessary use of force." Moreover, I said nothing whatsoever as to whether the target is or is not a "civilian."

In any event, the invocation of 10 U.S.C. § 252 and the orders issued pursuant to the statute fall within the core constitutional powers of the commander-in-chief. The sweeping language of the statute illustrates the danger of having such a self serving egomaniac as Donald Trump as president.

[Michael P]

No, your hypothetical only illustrates that you continue to suffer from Trump Derangement Syndrome. You've moved the goalposts in order to keep whinging about Orange Man Bad.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Ng, going forward would you please extend your example to include the necessary situational context (of being in rebellion) so readers who do not know this would understand that you are upset that a CinC could order the military to target a belligerent who has rebelled against the US?

That way everyone can see what a first class idiot you are when you go into your Rachel Maddow-like hysterics?

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Make sure you also include your qualification of how adding an the inherently subjective yet objective “reasonableness” standard would make it A-OK.

[Michael P]

On top of all that, the only thing that NG is worried about is that supposedly the presidential assassination order could before clearly be charged as a criminal offense (although in the hypo as presented, the only situation where it would be so charged is anti-Trump-style lawfare) whereas now there would need to be litigation over whether the order was truly a core presidential function or not -- and THEN the government could criminally charge the ex-president who have the order.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

That section is in the context of rebellion.

You believe that in the context of a rebellion, it would’ve been unlawful for the US military to target the leader of the rebellion but after the SCOTUS ruling they could, and that’s some super scary threat to democracy?

Idiots. Seriously, you are an idiot.

[not guilty]

Don't try to tell me what I do or do not believe, JHBHBE.

I quoted the language of the statute, which speaks for itself. The SCOTUS decision as to immunity from criminal prosecution makes it all the more dangerous to vest broad and sweeping powers to use the armed forces in a megalomanic like Donald Trump.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

I wasn't injecting beliefs into your mind. I was recording your delusional insanity for posterity.

You're a deranged lunatic.

[hobie]

You kinda stepped in it there, Jesus

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

You're a vile idiot too.

[David Nieporent]

When the D.C. Circuit asked Trump’s counsel if his position would immunize a president who ordered Seal Team 6 to take out his opponent, that was then widely seen as an attempt to ridicule the position that Team Trump was taking.

What not guilty omits from this comment is that in response to this question, Trump's lawyer agreed that the president would be immune if he did this. This isn't some wild-eyed Internet claim; this is Trump's position.

[Michael P]

Well, the left largely lives in a fantasy land constructed from their projections of their innermost hopes and dreams (for widespread death and destruction, see for example their "Last Generation" nutter subset) onto their political enemies. They're bound to get confused about motives, means and opportunities.

[Kazinski]

Well you’re as much a VC’er as anyone, but you should just speak for yourself, you aren’t speaking for me.

Unless you are referring to the conspirators.

Ilya has blood on his hands?

[Dan Schiavetta]

I'm just a commenter, I'm not a VC'er.

The analogy is to the "sympathy" from people opposed to the polio vaccine when a child comes down with polio and loses the use of her legs.

[Commenter_XY]

Are you sorry President Trump survived?

[Dan Schiavetta]

Maybe he’ll learn something. However the human capacity for denial is infinite and he's not a particularly educable person.

[Mr. Bumble]

...and what might he learn that he hasn't already?

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Don't challenge the Deep State.

That's what captcrisis must be referring too.

[Michael P]

I wonder which of Chuck Schumer’s six ways this was. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/1866424/schumer-warns-trump-intel-officials-have-six-ways-from-sunday-at-getting-back-at-you/

[Kazinski]

So Ilya does have blood on his hands?

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

” They have no solutions to mass shootings or assassinations.”

Disarm all Democrats especially the illegals, black males, and trannies.

Gun violence will drop to next to zero.

[Frank Drackman]

Looks like it was a "Bernie Bro" like with the Congressional Baseball game shooting, I guess we could execute all of them, after a fair trial of course. Fortunately both guys were bad shots.

Frank

[CountmontyC]

Shooter being described as a "Chinese national." One of Biden's illegal aliens?

[Frank Drackman]

"Migrants!" you gotta call them "Migrants" or Nancy Pelosi will spank his peepee

Frank

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

You are a comprehensively lousy and profoundly uninformed person, CountmontyC.

You also are the target audience of this right-wing blog.

[santamonica811]

From the initial video, it seem that Trump was directly or indirectly (ricochet) shot in the ear. It is unbelievable to think that it’s literally a matter of 2-3 inches between a minor injury and the death of a presidential candidate.

We’re all thankful that this animal did not have better aim. Sorry for Trump’s injury, and incredibly sorry for the family and friends of the innocent deceased victim and the injured second victim.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Wow. And just to be clear, if anyone is thinking about making Maxwell Smart memes about this, that's terrible and you shouldn't.

[Kazinski]

From the video he tilted his head about an inch to the left half a second before the shot. He was facing toward the shooter to the extreme right of the stage when he was shot.

The gunman probably had to hurry his shot because he was seen by onlookers with the rifle who were shouting at the SS and police when they say him with a rifle.

This story has an view from above the shooter and Trump’s location, the SS snipers were on the roof of the buildings behind the stage.

behind-attempted-assassination-on-trump-shot-and-killed-by-secret-service-sources/

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

It is inexplicable that a kook with a military-style weapon was able to reach an uncluttered rooftop within sniping distance of a legitimate presidential candidate who was to be located at that spot for an extended period of time.

I observed better security when I was involved in conducting a professional golf tournament for several years.

[Estragon]

Thoughts and prayers. Still not voting for him.

[Mr. Bumble]

Apparently Trump's fine but apparently at least one of the rally goers has been killed.

[Estragon]

No one deserves to be murdered. Trump is, however, deplorable. I hope you live long enough to regret your support of such a person. I hope he recovers speedily in the meantime

[Mr. Bumble]

I lived just fine through the 4 years he was president and I'm hoping to make it through his next four years as president and looking forward to it.

[Estragon]

“I lived just fine through the 4 years”

And the biden years as well— you seem to have enough money to afford internet access— and oodles of spare time to boot! A charmed life

[Mr. Bumble]

Less money these past four years and apparently as much spare time as you.

[Estragon]

Haha, cmon even you don’t believe that one!

[Estragon]

Seriously— you post dozens of comments here daily— many or most of one or two sentences max. Are you really denying this or trying to draw some sort of comparison? I pray for you. You need a more productive outlet.

[Drewski]

I'm pretty sure he posts a lot more than that using multiple accounts. Sometimes he forgets to switch when replying.

[Mr. Bumble]

...and you would be wrong, as always, buffalo breath.

[Estragon]

While I do believe there is sock puppetry going on here, I do not believe Bumble is one of those folks. Biggest culprit is whatever the latest iteration of the BCD/voltage guy happens to be. I think he’s running at least 3 screen names at any given time. Truly a puzzling mindset to contemplate.

[Drewski]

Just watch for it. You'll see he and other accounts, usually Ed, occasionally reply as though they were each other in the big open threads. I agree on BCD. I also think David "Daivd" Behar runs the Sabedi account - they both use the same phraseology. And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Blondie, White Pride, and Riva were all one and the same.

I don't think any of it really matters, though - nobody here is having their minds changed. It's been a long time since the comments at the VC were much more than a window into the lunatic-right's narratives and conspiracy theories. Except for Capt's TiSCH posts.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

If you have less money, get a better job. And quit whining.

[Kazinski]

We are all deplorable too for supporting him, don't forget that.

[Estragon]

Some are misguided. Not you, however.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Is it deplorable to be a half-educated right-wing bigot?

It is deplorable to be a resident of a disaffected, decaying, can't-keep-up backwater?

Is it deplorable to be an antisocial gun nut, a superstition-addled anti-abortion absolutist, or an un-American, insurrectionist-supporting culture war casualty.

[Frank Drackman]

For the Shooter? He's dead (Jim). I'm not voting for your Brain-dead candidate either. Or for Sleepy.

[not guilty]

The suspected gunman was reportedly killed by the Secret Service. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/07/13/us/biden-trump-election

[JoeFromtheBronx]

On October 14, 1912, former saloonkeeper John Schrank (1876–1943) attempted to assassinate former U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt while he was campaigning for the presidency in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Roosevelt assured the crowd he was all right, then ordered police to take charge of Schrank and to make sure no violence was done to him. Schrank was later found not guilty by reason of insanity.

No one else was harmed in the attempt. Roosevelt survived the attempt. Wilson won the presidency in a four-person race.

Schrank was committed to a hospital for the criminally insane and died there 29 years later.

Schrank had written that the ghost of William McKinley came to him in a dream and told Schrank to avenge his death, pointing to a picture of Theodore Roosevelt.

[hobie]

What a retard. These Secret Service agents are putting their lives on the line to protect him and he wants to muscle his way into a power fist photo op. Sickening

[Mr. Bumble]

Which mental health facility will you be entering on November 6th. I'd like to send flowers.

[Kleppe]

God bless Donald Trump.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Your God is a paltry and illusory thing. If your God supports Trump, your God is also a useless dumbass.

[Michael P]

Otra really sad to try to dunk on a political candidate who just survived an assassination attempt for reassuring the crowd that he was not seriously injured.

Don't wait until Nov 6th to check yourself into that asylum that Mr. Bumble mentioned.

[Kazinski]

Its not about them, sure they are risking their lives, but the shooter was shooting at Trump, not them.

[Commenter_XY]

As of 9pm, there is not enough information about the shooter. All we know is a shooter from a distance tried to kill President Trump.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

Here is the conspiracy theory of the day:

They can't get rid of Biden, so the CIA/Globalists/Obama-ites/Deep State staged this against POTUS Trump '45 '47, so they can assassinate Biden and blame it on 1776 Patriots.

[CountmontyC]

THIS IS A MESSAGE FROM DONALD TRUMP

I want to thank The United States Secret Service, and all of Law Enforcement, for their rapid response on the shooting that just took place in Butler, Pennsylvania.

Most importantly, I want to extend my condolences to the family of the person at the Rally who was killed, and also to the family of another person that was badly injured.

It is incredible that such an act can take place in our Country. Nothing is known at this time about the shooter, who is now dead.

I was shot with a bullet that pierced the upper part of my right ear.

I knew immediately that something was wrong in that I heard a whizzing sound, shots, and immediately felt the bullet ripping through the skin.

Much bleeding took place, so I realized then what was happening.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Donald J. Trump
45th President of the United States

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

This man is a hero! Incredible bravery. God was protecting our President! (The good one, not the Jewish or the Moslem one)

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Trump is illiterate. Your God is illusory. You are culture war roadkill.

It is very good that Trump was not killed. It is deplorable that someone was killed by a gun-toting kook while attending a political rally in America.

[hobie]

Heroically blathering about immigrants while his ear gets dinged. You seem easily impressed, Jesus

[Kazinski]

“The FBI said it has assumed the role of the lead federal law enforcement agency in the investigation.”

If the Shooter had a manifesto, it will never see the light of day.

This is pretty bad timing from Kamala:

"Vice President Kamala Harris condemned former President Donald J. Trump as a leader who “incites hate” during an address on Saturday at a convention of Asian American voters in Philadelphia."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/13/us/politics/kamala-harris-calls-trump-a-politician-who-incites-hate.html

If it turns out the shooter was Chinese, there will be some unfortunate connections drawn, and if he has any connection whatsoever to the groups sponsoring her rally, in the same state on the same day, its gonna get turned up to 11.

[hobie]

Thank God we wish to defund the FBI. What a nightmare this country has become

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

They are causing much of our national nightmare.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Anti-government cranks -- especially disaffected right-wing losers -- are among my favorite culture war casualties . . . and the precise target audience of a white, male, faux libertarian, bigotry-embracing blog.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

If he was Chinese, the State Department will cover it up as to not harm China's reputation. Like when we caught China spying on us with those balloons.

If he was a tranny, well then the FBI would swoop in and cover it up. Like they did when they sick Democrat tranny brutally mass murdered those innocent Whit Christian children and babies.

[Kazinski]

This screen shot purports to show the bullet after it hit his ear, since according to the NY post diagram he was facing the shooter.

https://x.com/TorstenProchnow/status/1812290924510159136?t=Lt3vLdQ_1fDPfSR5aNeNBw&s=19

It's a yard link streak that's circled. I'm no video expert, hard to say if it's real or not.

[santamonica811]

I'll just note that Trump was shot in his right ear. The photo in your link seems to show a streaking bullet approaching his left ear (although that may be due to a perspective illusion).

[Kazinski]

Nope, the bullet came from Trump's far right parallel to the stage and hit his right ear. If that's the bullet then it already hit his ear and is on its way into the stands to the left of the stage.

Trump either hasn't reacted yet or is raising his right hand to his right ear already, but I doubt he could react that fast.

And yes its impossible from that 2d perspective to see if the bullet is to his right or left, but he definitely got hit to the right, and the bullet definitely came from the direction he was looking, so the photo would show the bullet after it passed him.

[Kleppe]

Could someone do a wellness check on Rev Kirkland? I want to make sure he isn't splayed out on a Pennsylvania rooftop.

[Kazinski]

I doubt he could climb a ladder to a rooftop carrying a rifle.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

I doubt you would have been qualified to be my assistant in any of my professional positions.

Say hi to your mail order bride for me.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

What’s the one thing scarier than boarding a plane and seeing a DIE pilot?

DIE Secret Service. Ladies and Gentlezirs, here is our diverse SS in action:

https://x.com/stillgray/status/1812325147384086597?t=GeFTXYIEViabqc1htJjdrw&s=19

[hobie]

18:12:23: Male agent: “Let’s move, let’s move.”

Agents start to stand up, lifting Trump.

18:12:33: Trump: “Let me get my shoes, let me get my shoes.”

18:12:35: Male agent 2: “I got you sir, I got you sir.”

18:12:36: Trump: “Let me get my shoes on.”

18:12:37: Another male agent: “hold on, your head is bloody.”

18:12:39: Male agent 2: “Sir we’ve got to move to the car sir.”

18:12:42: Trump: “Let me get my shoes.”

18:12:43: Female agent: “OK, [inaudible].”

18:12:47: Trump: “Wait, wait, wait” then fist pumps to crowd. He mouths “fight” three times – a move met with cheers by the crowd.

18:12:54: Agent: “We got to move, we got to move.”