The Volokh Conspiracy
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No Homeless In The Park
Are camping laws regulation of "conduct" by homeless people or the "status" of being homeless?
City of Grants Pass v. Johnson was decided on June 28, along with several other more high-profile cases, including Fischer and Loper Bright. Had this case been decided earlier in the term, I think it would have gotten more attention. This case put on display two diametrically opposite modes of judging: How narrowly to read precedent? Should non-originalist precedent be extended? How should policy considerations factor into constitutional law? What role should amicus briefs play? Should courts review legislative records to determine improper motivation or "animus"? And so on. I'll address these issues in another post.
Here, I'd like to write about the legal issue in the abstract. Specifically, should the government be able to prohibit homelessness? The title of this post is a play on the classic law school hypothetical: No Vehicles In the Park? Generations of law students have been asked to interpret a sign with this message. Does it prohibit cars? Bicycles? Baby carriages? Baby-carriers? Wheel chairs? Crutches? Horses? Wheel-barrows? Hovercrafts? Piggyback rides? Potato sack race? And so on. It is a fun classroom exercise, which is quite relevant to Grants Pass.
Grants Pass divides about how to understand the local law. The majority, per Justice Gorsuch, reads the law to prohibit "camping" in public places, including parks. The dissent, per Justice Sotomayor, reads the law to prohibit the mere existence of being homeless, such as by sleeping with a blanket in public places.
The same act can be characterized in two very different ways. Why does it matter? Because the government is well within its powers to prohibit actions. For example, the government can prohibit the use of narcotics. But can the government prohibit the status of being a drug addict? In Robinson v. California (1961), the Supreme Court held that California could not enforce its law making "the 'status' of narcotic addiction a criminal offense." For now, let's put aside whether Robinson was a correct application of the Eight Amendment (it was not) and whether this precedent should be extended to the context of homelessness (it should not).
The law often has difficulties distinguishing between status and conduct. Long before Obergefell, there was a vigorous debate about laws concerning gays and lesbians. For example, did the sodomy law at issue in Lawrence v. Texas (2003) prohibit the act of gay sex, or did it criminalize the status of being gay--that is, an act that is intrinsic to being homeless. Justice Scalia's dissent offered this rejoinder to Justice O'Connor's concurrence:
JUSTICE O'CONNOR argues that the discrimination in this law which must be justified is not its discrimination with regard to the sex of the partner but its discrimination with regard to the sexual proclivity of the principal actor.
"While it is true that the law applies only to conduct, the conduct targeted by this law is conduct that is closely correlated with being homosexual. Under such circumstances, Texas' sodomy law is targeted at more than conduct. It is instead directed toward gay persons as a class." Ante, at 5.
Of course the same could be said of any law. A law against public nudity targets "the conduct that is closely correlated with being a nudist," and hence "is targeted at more than conduct"; it is "directed toward nudists as a class." But be that as it may. Even if the Texas law does deny equal protection to "homosexuals as a class," that denial still does not need to be justified by anything more than a rational basis, which our cases show is satisfied by the enforcement of traditional notions of sexual morality.
Seven years later, the Court decided Christian Legal Society v. Martinez (2010). Would a policy excluding gay students from a student organization on campus discriminate on the basis of engaging in activity viewed as sinful (gay sex) or on the basis of simply being gay.
In Christian Legal Society v. Martinez, Justice Ginsburg rejected this distinction:
CLS contends that it does not exclude individuals because of sexual orientation, but rather "on the basis of a conjunction of conduct and the belief that the conduct is not wrong." Brief for Petitioner 35–36 (emphasis deleted). Our decisions have declined to distinguish between status and conduct in this context. See Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U. S. 558, 575 (2003) ("When homosexual conduct is made criminal by the law of the State, that declaration in and of itself is an invitation to subject homosexual persons to discrimination." (emphasis added)); id., at 583 (O'Connor, J., concurring in judgment) ("While it is true that the law applies only to conduct, the conduct targeted by this law is conduct that is closely correlated with being homosexual. Under such circumstances, [the] law is targeted at more than conduct. It is instead directed toward gay persons as a class."); cf. Bray v. Alexandria Women's Health Clinic, 506 U. S. 263, 270 (1993) ("A tax on wearing yarmulkes is a tax on Jews."). See also Brief for Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund, Inc., et al. as Amici Curiae 7–20.
But in Lawrence and related cases, the Court's conservatives advance that this distinction is valid. Under the law, is it possible to hate the sin but love the sinner?
In Grant's Pass, the Court's right and left continue to divide along similar lines. The Grants Pass majority views the law as a regulation of conduct by homeless people. And the Grants Pass dissent views the law as a regulation of the status of being homeless--that is, an act that is intrinsic to being gay.
To state it more simply, does the law prohibit the use of a vehicle in the park? Or does the law prohibit the existence of a vehicle in the park?
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I don't think the vehicle in the park example is relevant.
The thing about being "homeless", is that it is independent of where you happen to be located at any given moment. While the statute in question only prohibited camping on public property. You could be homeless, and camp in somebody's backyard, for instance, were they willing.
But not if they weren't, and why would the government as a property owner be different in that regard?
Texas' sodomy law didn't prohibit sodomy in public parks, something they'd have been able to get away with. It prohibited it in the entire state, including private property.
There's a huge difference between prohibiting specific conduct on government land, and prohibiting it everywhere. The former is really just an exercise of the government's rights as a property owner, the latter is more in the nature of an exercise of the police power.
To extend this, it doesn't even prohibit being homeless in the park, just the act of camping in the park. You can be homeless all you like in the park, during regular hours, so long as you don't pitch a tent.
Really, the idea that it prohibits a status, just because the action it prohibits (But only in a particular place!) is somewhat more likely to be engaged in by people having that status, is absurd. Homeless people aren't the only people tempted to camp in parks, I did it myself as a young man on long road trips, to save on the cost of a motel.
"camp in somebody’s backyard, for instance, were they willing."
No Brett -- check with your local code guy.
Sure thing. Quoting from our local code:
"4.2 CAMPGROUNDS1
4.2.1 PURPOSE
The campground development standards are established to encourage high quality campgrounds within Greenville County that are safe for occupants and sensitive to the environment.
4.2.2 APPLICABILITY
A. This Section applies to any lot that contains a campground as defined in Article 23: Definitions & Acronyms.2
B. This Section does not apply to the non-commercial use of private property for camping activities by the property owner or one or more people authorized by the property owner."
Massachusetts has 105 CMR 410 which even requires electricity.
I like Greenville County...
The reason I no longer ride Amtrak is because I was was waiting in DC's Union Station for the once-daily Vermonter that left at 7AM. I had a ticket and was in the designated waiting place. At 2AM an Amtrak cop checked my ticket and confirmed my train would be arriving in 5 hours and I could sit there and wait for it.
About 3 AM I appear to have fallen asleep and was physically assaulted by a different Amtrak cop who told me he didn't care if I had a ticket, if I fell asleep again, he would kick me out of the building. And from my only way of accessing my train. 500 miles from home.
I was a paying customer.
And not anymore...
Is this the same time as when you pretended this happened while you were in a car? Or a different one?
Hey, if Joe can attend a historically black college, have a career as a truck driver, AND have been the first black woman VP, I think you can cut Ed some slack.
Didn't he claim the cop tore up his ticket or something like that?
Didn’t he claim the cop tore up his ticket or something like that?
I thought he claimed that his uncle was eaten by cannibals?
Oh, wait…that was some other guy.
I don't think the 8th Amendment should be read as having anything to say about whether camping can be punished. Inability to obey the law should be treated as a defense. If necessary the court should address the continued legitimacy of strict liability crimes.
To be sure, if you accidentally got locked into a park at night, you'd have a pretty good as applied defense.
Note that the law in question doesn't punish "camping". It punishes camping in a specific location. It has nothing to say about camping elsewhere, which is the glaring hole in saying it criminalizes a status.
The court said this. However, in a world where procedure is almost everything, it makes an enormous difference. After you’ve been arrested, if you have a lawyer, you can make out a defense, at least if you hace a sympathetic jury.
But this leaves police free to continue to break up homeless camps and arrest people. The existence of an affirmative defense generally doesn’t defeat probable cause. And since the homeless can’t afford the fines anyway, the theoretical ability to make out a defense may well make little practical difference in terms of what actually happens.
But if camping in public places is something that the government can legitimately prohibit, why should the homeless get a pass on it? What other laws of general application do they get a pass on?
Remember, nothing legally stops a homeless person from setting up a tent in somebody's backyard, if they're willing. If they're willing. Are the homeless really supposed to be exempt from squatting laws, for instance?
I think the argument is that there is no place in the town (including the park) where one may legally sleep outside. Therefore, if there are not enough spots at the homeless shelters, it is impossible to remain in the town for more than a day or so and comply with the "no sleeping outside" ordinances.
The obvious rejoinder to that, from a constitutional perspective, is that there is no law compelling the homeless person to stay in Grants Pass, so by staying and sleeping outside, they are breaking the law voluntarily. Thus, no 8th Amdt issue.
There's probably a liberty interest in being able to remain in Grants Pass, though. You're not seriously suggesting that a town can pass an ordinance that effectively says certain types of people can't live in Grants Pass?
Of course not, But I don't see why you cannot pass a law saying that nobody may live (i.e. sleep overnight) on public property in Grants Pass.
Because the practical impact is that homeless people can't live in Grants Pass. Which would be open to challenge on Ninth Amendment, privileges and immunities, and probably other grounds as well.
As a practical matter, I can't live in Martha's Vineyard or Hilton Head. I'm not seeing the constitutional implications of this.
But that's not because there are laws keeping you out of Martha's Vineyard. The Constitution applies differently to laws than it does to market forces.
No, there aren't any laws keeping me out of Martha's Vineyard, and there aren't any laws keeping the homeless out of Grant's Pass.
Fat chance they'd let me camp in the local park in Martha's Vineyard, either. No, the situation with me in Martha's Vineyard, and a homeless person in Grant's Pass, is (relevantly) identical: We can't afford housing there!
Poverty relative to local living costs is not a constitutional issue.
I will assume for sake of argument that if Martha's Vineyard has public parks the homeless probably aren't permitted to sleep there, though I'm not sure Martha's Vineyard would be the first choice for where to be homeless either. If I were homeless and lived in that part of the country I'd be far more inclined to head up to Boston or Providence.
But if push came to shove, I very much doubt the courts would allow Martha's Vineyard to exclude the homeless from the island altogether, which is what's being proposed for Grants Pass.
But, again, they're not being excluded from the community altogether, they're just being prohibited from sleeping in the park. Even the homeless don't spend 24 hours a day sleeping, you know, nor are the parks 100% of the land area of the city.
So, it's perfectly legal to be homeless and in Grant's Pass, there are just limits on what you can do in Grants Pass that homeless people don't get exempted from.
Yes, and since sleep is a biological necessity, you're asking them to forego a biological necessity as a condition of remaining in Grants Pass.
"Yes, and since sleep is a biological necessity, you’re asking them to forego a biological necessity as a condition of remaining in Grants Pass."
Yes, in EXACTLY the same way they're asking ME to forego a biological necessity as a condition of remaining in Martha's Vineyard. I'm pointing out that the implications here are pretty enormous, if we establish a right to live anywhere you want regardless of whether you can afford housing there.
OK, you're conflating two issues. The question is not whether the homeless have the right to live there; the question is whether the city has the right to stop them. To which I think the answer is no -- Ninth Amendment, privileges and immunities, fundamental liberty interest, etc.
That's also my analysis on abortion: The question is not whether she has the right to terminate the pregnancy; the question is whether Texas has the right to stop her. To which I think the answer is also no; same theories.
The city is not stopping anybody from living in Grants Pass. Literally, they're not. They're just stopping people from sleeping in the park.
What they're not obligated to do is provide that homeless person with a legal place to stay. He has to obtain it himself, on the same terms as everybody else.
They're just stopping people from doing what they have to do to live in Grants Pass. You seem to think that unless the ordinance says in so many words that the homeless may not live there, that it's fine; that as long as they impose conditions that create the same result there's no problem.
They are literally not stopping anybody from living in Grants Pass. Anybody can live in Grants Pass if they want to, they just can't sleep in the park.
Pick any ritzy neighborhood in the country: Is the local government stopping you from living there, just because you can't afford the rent, and they won't let you squat? No, that's not how we normally assess these things.
All Grants Pass is doing is enforcing a law against camping in the park, and that's it. The homeless person's inability to afford a house isn't the local government's fault.
Martha's Vinyard had the state police round up the illegal aliens and remove them.
And I said this on an earlier thread but it bears repeating: I am fundamentally a capitalist, although I probably support more regulation and higher taxes than most here. However, I also recognize that having homeless people is going to be one of the side effects of capitalism; there will always be some people who simply cannot survive in a free market.
So, because capitalism is the system we have chosen, I do think society has an obligation to provide a safety net to those who can't make it in a capitalist system. When our policy choices lead to bad consequences for others I do think there is a duty to provide for them.
But we had a capitalist society in the 1950's, and a generally poorer society back then, too, with less in the way of welfare, and we hardly had any homeless as we know them today.
It's not a product of capitalism, it's a product of deinstitutionalizing the mentally ill. The simple fact is that some percentage of the population are simply not mentally competent to live normal lives on their own. When we kicked those poor unfortunates out of the mental institutions, they ended up on the street, instead.
So the question is, are we obligated to let our public parks become the new mental institutions, only with nothing in the way of services? I don't think so, this seems to be approximately the worst possible way of responding to the mentally ill, short of genocide.
Society needs some way to deal with those who are simply not up to the challenges of leading normal lives. But it doesn't have to be letting them set up tent camps in parks and on streets.
We can have a lengthy discussion about the root causes and best ways to resolve homelessness, and I'm open to a number of different possible solutions. My bottom line, though, remains that since capitalism is our chosen system I do think there's a duty to people who are unable to function within it. I don't think we need to be Sweden but I don't want us to be Dickenesian England either.
Sure, I recognize a duty of charity, though I don't think this is best taken care of through government. I just think letting the homeless build tent camps in parks is a shitty way of fulfilling that duty. Like I said above, it's actually close to the worst way to fulfill it. Not good for the mentally ill, and not good for everybody else, either.
"I think the argument is that there is no place in the town (including the park) where one may legally sleep outside."
Well, if that's the basis for the argument, it fails immediately, since, as I keep pointing out, people quite often sleep outside in their own backyards. Testing out tents, having fun with the kids.
It's not the city's fault if no actual property owner cares to let a homeless person sleep in their backyard.
Come to think of it, we don't even know if that's true; maybe some property owners would be willing to let homeless sleep in their backyard. Have the homeless asked everybody? Seems at minimum they have to exhaust their remedies before arguing they can simply seize public land.
When this issue came up in Boise, thecproblem was that charitably operated shelters had rules to protect women and children by segregating accommodations by sex and age. Thry also prohibited alcohol and drugs. some homeless prefered to sleep outdoors in suffering weather instead of following those rules. My sympathy did not extend that far, having your kids,sleep outside at 20 degrees rather than give up meth.
People have a privacy right in their home.
Remember?
The government can deal with the homeless is various ways. Criminalizing homelessness when the people have no other place to go amounts to criminalizing the status of being homeless.
A person is not required to house someone sick. The government still are not allowed to criminalize being sick. They can civilly commit them in certain cases. Not the same thing
It is not criminalizing homelessness, because the homeless person has the (unattractive) option of going elsewhere to find somewhere to sleep. I could see the counterarguments only if (1) the laws were being enforced only against the homeless and others (like cub scouts) were allowed to camp out, or (2) you could genuinely show that there were no alternatives such that compliance with the law was a virtual impossibility.
Re criminalizing being sick, ISTR recall a recent public health crisis that involved, among other questionable infringements on civil liberties, mandatory quarantines with punishment for violations.
"(unattractive) option of going elsewhere"
What is so attractive about Grants Pass? Nondescript 39,000 city. Go elsewhere. The city would probably buy you a bus ticket as well.
Criminalizing homelessness when the people have no other place to go amounts to criminalizing the status of being homeless.
If that argument were any more circular you'd be able to calculate it's circumference with great precision using pi.
It’s a classic whole-is-not-the-sum-of-the parts situation. It works exactly like discrimination. If people can’t sleep on a single piece of property, there’s no problem. But if EVERYBODY adapts the rule, and people can’t sleep anywhere, there’s a problem. There’s a kind of negative network effect in which the larger the network, the bigger the problem.
I think this is something that’s often difficult for people, and especially libertarians, to grasp. I think morals laws, and I classify discrimination laws as morals laws, often work this way. If one isolated person running a small business wants to work only with white people or men, it really makes very little difference to anyone else; the idea of its being morally wrong or an affront to others is an out-of-place abstraction or inappropriate prudery. But if all or most employers work this way, then it becomes a problem. Lots of things are harmless or quite tolerable in small quantities, but overwhelming problems in large amounts. Water is essential for life in small quantities, but drowns you in big ones.
We often have a very hard time crafting laws that allow things in small quantities but not big ones. Legal thinking tends to take on a binary form, making things either always absolutely right or always absolutely wrong.
I see this as an example. But I also see discrimination laws as an example.
Imagine a society where men use women purely as prostitutes or child-bearers and have sex for social purposes only with other men, where homosexual sex is ubiquitous and normative. Then if women wasnt to enter the social sphere and be part of society rather than used objects, laws against homosexuality may have the same rationale in the domestic sphere as discrimination laws in the commercial sphere.
Whenever something is no problem if done in one isolated instance or in small quantities but becomes a problem if everybody does it or in large quantities, the question of at what point something has become big or ubiquitous enough to be a problem is a rational basis question to be decided by legislatures. Just like speed limits. Speed is yet another thing that’s no problem in small quantities but can become dangerous in large ones.
Brett, ask your CEO guy if your high school buddy can camp in your back yard....
Answer will be no!
I actually had a friend who did long term camping in a neighbor's backyard, (OK, technically inside their barn.) because their house had burned down, and staying in a hotel until it was rebuilt wasn't financially manageable. People DO permit this occasionally for people they know.
Did the municipal code enforcement folk know of it?
It was a rural area, no such thing.
I read the opinion as repudiating the relaxation of the status/conduct distinction for 14th Amendment Due Process/Equal Protection purposes that began with Lawrence.
I generally agree with the decision but not homeless people are drug addicts or mentally ill, although many are.
The destruction of the houding industry in the 2008 housing bubble plus current high interest rates have priced a lot of full-time workers out of housing (even here in Boise). I am not thrilled at government going into the housing business again, but in the meantime there is a real mess that needs SOME solution at least temporarily
A good number of homeless refuse to enter shelters and government-funded housing because it either places them in a dangerous situation (group shelters) or has strict rules that prohibit them from bringing pets, drugs/medications, or hard-won belongings.
In my experience (which is admittedly limited), people who are capable but fall on hard times are quick to find and use government assistance to regain some type of housing. This is where government housing efforts work.
What impact do high interest rates have on section 8 (government voucher) rental units? For that matter, interest rates cannot really price entire markets out of housing except where demand exceeds supply. It's not an interest rate issue but a supply issue.
What the state governments can do is reduce the impact of the NIMBY movement by gutting the regulations that keep new housing expensive. See: California's efforts which are starting to bear fruit. (San Francisco's local housing regulations were just swatted aside. )
Homelessness is only the first evil Grants Pass is planning to legislate away. Next up: Hunger, disease, and bread falling buttered-side down.
Heh, remember an SF short story where somebody invented a perpetual motion machine by strapping a piece of buttered toast to the back of a cat...
Grants Pass hasn't legislated away the evil of homelessness, which is actually the point. They've legislated away the evil of camping in the park, which is actually both possible to do, and within their legitimate authority as the owner of the park.
" . . . the evil of camping in the park . . . . "
Not sure about 'evil' (looks up difference between malum in se and malum prohibitum).
It's a pretty mild evil, to be sure, but yes, it manages to be an evil, because,
1) It takes part of the public park out of general use.
2) It will typically result in damage to the grass if you pitch a tent on one spot too long.
Homeless are either mentally ill, drunks or drug addicts, liberal myth making not withstanding.
Sure, Bob. Right out of your ass so you can declare them underserving of human dignity.
Those antisocials are lucky we don't sterilize them, eh?
I live in the real world, not whatever world you live in.
I will amend, obviously there is a very small percentage of just unlucky homeless. But far, far fewer than lib myths.
You own a house now I think. Why don't you let a homeless person pitch a tent?
Don't forget those that are simply grifters-- lots of them choose the lifestyle because it's easy, an inevitable result of making the safety net so generous. They could get a job, or they could spend all their time camping and waiting to collect government benefits/private charity handouts. Most will choose a job, but enough will choose modest but easy street to make a difference.
lots of them choose the lifestyle because it’s easy
What the fuck?
What's complicated about this: Being homeless in a country that won't just let you starve to death is a more comfortable life than the vast majority of humanity experienced for 99.999% of our evolutionary history; Why would the suggestion some people are content with it shock you?
Exhibit #204511 that liberals don't actually believe in human diversity...
There is no evidence people are homeless out of laziness.
This isn't about diversity, it's about not pulling things out of your ass.
Like the claim that there's no evidence anybody is homeless out of laziness? That has a certain fecal odor to it...
Don't shift the burden like that. And how clumsily done. No, saying 'your thesis is unsupported' does not mean I require support for the opposite. What is this, middle school?
Oh, and nice new goalposts. From 'lots of them' to 'anybody.'
Why are you working so many fallacies to shit on the homeless?
I'm fairly certain you don't mean to join the gun-grabbers, so you don't really think that the government can prohibit on public land anything private landowners can prohibit on private land.
Do people have a constitutional right to sleep?
Well, but the right to keep and bear arms is explicitly guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. Explicit constitutional rights constrain government, after all, that's the point of having them.
The question is NOT if people have a constitutional right to sleep, it's whether they have a constitutional right to have the government provide a place to do it.
Since I asked the question, I get to say what it is.
Robert Bork thought the Ninth Amendment was a nullity, but Randy Barnett argues on originalist grounds that it stands for the principle that unenumerated rights are in no way inferior to enumerated ones. Substitute "bear arms" for "sleep" in your pronouncements and you'll better appreciate his point.
Right, in no way inferior, it's just that enumeration establishes the existence of a right, so in its absence you have to adduce other evidence.
But, again, it would be a right to sleep, not a right to have the government provide you with a place to do it.
Let’s test out that statement:
it would be a right to
sleepbear arms, not a right to have the government provide you with a place to do itStill good?
Yeah, the "bear" is the part that's getting you: It's not just the right to own them, but also the right to carry them around, so it defaults to a right to go armed anywhere you can go, with exceptions based on historical practice.
But the government doesn't have to provide you with a gun, ammo, or a range at which to practice. It doesn't have to let you have free access to government buildings, either armed OR unarmed.
Now, Grants Pass has not outlawed sleeping in the park altogether, they've outlawed camping in the park, which is to say establishing a temporary domicile there. You can't pitch a tent, you can't spend the night there in your car. The statute does NOT prohibit you from taking a nap there during the day.
The injunction that the Court overturned was effectively requiring the city to provide enough shelter beds that no homeless person would want to sleep in the park, if it was to ban camping in the park. It wasn't a "must allow sleeping" ruling, it was a "must provide bed" ruling, in effect: The city was deprived of basic control over its public spaces until such time as it provided every homeless person a bed.
After this decision, I would expect to see more stories like this:
https://www.centraloregondaily.com/news/lapine/darlene-3-fire-la-pine-homeless-camp-location/article_33e0a5fc-38ca-11ef-83d0-f30b36b227ee.html
Seems like that supports the Grants Pass law?
Pushing the homeless encampments out into the woods on federal land is not without cost. Communities like Grants Pass are approaching uninsurable already because of wildfire risk. BTW, the high in Grants today is 107.
So you would let them camp in town to make fires? Seems even more dangerous.
Not from a wildfire risk perspective. It’s hard to overstate how imperiled some of these communities are from wildfire— Grants in particular— but all over the Northwest.
From a burning buildings perspective, it does.
But that’s the point. The greater risk to buildings in these kinds of communities is from wildfire that starts on adjacent public lands.
Josh, as usual, misses the point completely.
There is a big constitutional issue here, but it has little to do with statutory construction.
Rather, if the plaintiffs had their way, there would be a federal constitutional obligation on every locality in the US to make available at least some portion of its public property for (semi) permanent residence to anyone who wants it, free of charge, at least to the extent that there is any arguable shortage of free indoor shelter,
Actually I thought that was Jesus's position.
Just as the Constitution failed to enact Mr. Spencer's Social Statics, so too does it fail to enact the Kingdom of God on Earth.
There is a big difference between what state and local governments (and individuals, for that matter) should do, and what they must do under the Constitution.
There is a big difference between what state and local governments (and individuals, for that matter) should do, and what they must do under the Constitution.
True enough. It would just be interesting to see the people arguing that government is under no constitutional obligation to protect some vulnerable group, but that it should do so anyway, even if it means higher taxes, more restrictions on businesses to avoid discrimination, etc.
Actually I thought that was Jesus’s position.
Do you suppose he has standing to challenge the law?
A far cry from Chicago's "Saturday in the Park".
For example, the government can prohibit the use of narcotics.
Let's view this as a matter of principle. At some point, prohibiting conduct will amount to burdening status.
If a person is sick and/or an addict, the total prohibition of the use of narcotics is probably constitutionally suspect on principle.
A law can have a compelling purpose to safeguard the public. But, if it is not necessary, harm to persons is problematic.
The government can ban homeless people from "camping" in a park if there are alternatives.
Some people voluntarily are homeless, including some people with psychiatric problems who do not want to be in a shelter (often dangerous places, to be clear) or other type of housing. They do not have some blanket right to live in Port Authority (NYC) or something.
[We then get into tricky matters of public policy.]
...and why are "shelters dangerous places"?
Because they have homeless people in them, duh. The homeless are mostly people who are too mentally ill to manage to have a normal life on their own. This manifests in all sorts of ways beside not having a fixed domicile.
Right as to the inhabitants but the question was meant to show the government's failure. Of course since they can't keep the streets safe I guess it would be asking too much to keep the shelters safe.
Shelters privately run over the centuries also were often dangerous places.
That's a pretty broad and unsupported statement.
People make broad statements regularly here & I see very few footnotes that provide sources.
Brett notes that the homeless include some dangerous people. Going beyond the mentally ill, we are talking about unattached people and often strangers who are harder to regulate & have more incentives to do things like steal.
Whoever is taking care of the homeless and other people now often public charges will have difficulties to stop problems. Historical accounts don't suggest that private care suddenly stopped the inherent problems of handling these people.
The difference is that privately run shelters have an easier time legally evicting clients who cause problems.
Women, especially, are vulnerable and that has less to do with mental illness.
>If a person is sick and/or an addict, the total prohibition of the use of narcotics is probably constitutionally suspect on principle.
Ha, no it isn't. *Powell v. Texas*.
(Also the reason why the dissent in *Grant's Pass* had to tie themselves in knots insisting that no, *Grant's Pass* is *not* about whether the homeless person's actions are involuntary.)
The citation of a single case is not a refutation of an argument on "principle."
Powell v. Texas involved drinking in public. It was not about the right to drink at all (including privately) in all cases.
Four justices noted the public/private distinction & how current knowledge warranted leaving open the option to criminalize, in part to provide drunks assistance.
One justice said public drunkenness could be prosecuted in that case since it wasn't shown the person was involuntarily in public. A homeless person might be different.
If you think Powell is going to be overruled, you are liable to get convicted under Powell. If that case came up today, I'd wager even money that it would be 9-0.
I don't think Powell is going to be overruled.
My original comment talked about "principle" and we are stuck with some bad cases that violate certain good principles. Some here surely think that. We will have a debate about naming the cases.
Anyway, my comment talked about a problem with criminalizing everyone taking a drug they need to protect their health. I realize the limitations of the current law but Powell alone won't block such a path. It involved certain people drinking in public.
A pointed reminder that all the energy seems to be in forcing society to accommodate the mentally ill, rather than doing anything about their pathology.
The energy is focused on getting them first into a stable environment (accommodations) and then provide voluntary drug and mental health care. As a society, we felt that it was a good idea to close all the public mental health facilities (see: Governor Reagan) to save taxpayer money. That trend is reversing. I'm not a fan of involuntary care because of the abuses that can result but I believe that is where we'll end up in the near term.
How can they say that nudity is conduct? It is a status. Especially if a person owns no clothes.
Drug use is closely correlated with being an addict.
The whole idea of distinguishing conduct from status sounds unwise to me. Every conduct correlates to some status.
The whole idea of refusing to distinguish conduct from status sounds unwise to me, especially if "status" is going to give you a pass on enforcement of generally applicable laws. Basically ANY conduct you'd want to sanction could be the result of some status or other; Can we not prohibit murder because psychopathy is a status?
Could someone find a passage in the Bible (or another religious work) that could justify a decision to be homeless on religious grounds? (It has been asserted, often with ample evidence, that the Bible can be used to try to justify just about anything.)
That could twist clingers into knots.
Justice Scalia was a reprehensible, gullible bigot. That point alone should ensure that progress will diminish the influence of his writings over time.
Wouldn't every one of the involuntary homeless envisioned by the dissent and others have a complete necessity defense if he were prosecuted?
If somebody locked them in the park at night, sure.
Look, if I were trapped in Martha's Vineyard, I'd end up sleeping in the park, because, geeze, that place is expensive. But back in the real world I wouldn't be permitted to sleep in the park, because I wouldn't be trapped in Martha's Vineyard, I could always leave.
So can they.
I was thinking along the lines of needing to sleep somewhere for a single night. He has to sleep. It’s a worse harm and more dangerous to camp on private property. It’s more dangerous to camp in the wilderness. A park would be the safest place with the least harm. Arguably he’s homeless through no fault of his own. A lot of the necessity defense elements are being met.
It is far, far more dangerous in public parks. There are few predators in city-adjacent woods than there are in the city itself. Plus, you'll see the homeless camp in small groups for protection. But a coyote isn't going to be the same threat that a group of belligerent teens or a bored cop with a chip and immunity will be.
Wouldn’t every one of the involuntary homeless envisioned by the dissent and others have a complete necessity defense if he were prosecuted?
And if they can't afford a place to sleep, how will they afford the legal representation to advance that defense? Can they be held in jail until a trial if they cannot afford bail? If they are released, they still have the problem of not having anywhere to stay.
The effect, if not the goal, of this kind of restriction is to make it harder to be homeless in that locality than elsewhere, so that the homeless will move on to a different town or city and become their problem instead.
He'd have a public defender and he'd stay in jail the same as if he committed any other crime and there was no ROR. Just because you have a defense or justification for criminal acts doesn't mean you can't be arrested for it.
You could say the same thing about criminalizing drug use as "making it harder to being an addict." You might not like the overall effect or goal, but that doesn't make it an Eighth Amendment violation, and it's not clear to me what any constitutional violation would be anyway.
Just because you have a defense or justification for criminal acts doesn’t mean you can’t be arrested for it.
We generally expect that it is fairly clear what harm is being done by someone breaking a law before we pass the law and start arresting them and locking them up somewhere. And, that the magnitude of the harm is proportional to the imposition on a person's liberty. That a remedy that may or may not be sufficient to protect people from an incorrect enforcement of the law exists should not be used as justification to skip that analysis.
I would argue that the Eight Amendment prohibition on "cruel and unusual" punishments would require that a punishment "fit the crime." I don't know if this is part of the case law involving that amendment, but it seems like it should be, if not.
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”
― Anatole France
It’s true that only poor people need to sleep under bridges. It’s also true that only poor people need to rob banks. By this reasoning we should decriminalize robbing banks.
And we’re not in medieval France. The homeless don’t actually have to sleep under bridges; the claim that they “don’t have shelter available” is made by gaming the definition of having shelter available. Also, remember that the dissent in this case denies that it’s about things done involuntarily, which is an essential feature of the sleeping under bridges scenario:
>So unlike the debate in Powell, this case does not turn on
whether the criminalized actions are “ ‘involuntary’ or ‘oc-
casioned by’ ” a particular status
"...gaming the definition of having shelter available."
Needs citations/examples, especially "gaming" and "shelter."
If a city has 30,000 homeless living on the streets and has 10,000 shelter beds, there isn't enough shelter. Cars aren't shelter. (Motorhomes are but come with other legal issues.) Calling cars "shelter" would be "gaming," for example.
No Homeless In The Park
Are camping laws regulation of “conduct” by homeless people or the “status” of being homeless?
I think it’s a mistake to even buy into this framing. The camping ordinance is a general prohibition on certain conduct. So it’s more like
No Camping in the Park
Can somebody grant themselves absolute immunity to generally applicable laws by claiming to be involuntarily homeless?
... to which of course the answer is no.
Right, only the president gets to do that.
Just accept a tent as a home and set aside areas of a park for tents.
There are city codes that define minimums for shelter. I'm not an expert but I'm pretty sure running water, toilet facilities, and possibly electricity are part of that definition. I doubt that tents qualify.
The other issue will be mentally ill and/or drug addicted residents falling asleep and starting a forest fire. As a California resident, I can attest that this would be a huge problem. While not all homeless are mentally ill or drug addicted, those that aren't tend to get themselves into housing of some sort fairly quickly.
No one ever targeted homosexual men for who they were. They targeted them for what they did. No one would have had any issue with gay men if they just stayed in the closet and didn't demand the "right" to insert their diseased members into the rears of other men and shoot off inside, spreading HIV and Allah knows what else.