The Volokh Conspiracy
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Our Strange Politics of Meaning Assignment
A thought.
Recent stories about flags at the residence and vacation home of Justice Alito and his family remind me of something broader I'd been meaning to blog about: It's depressing, in our era of polarized politics, how much political attention focuses on interpreting the meaning of phrases and symbols that the other side uses.
The Alito flags raise one recent example, but I see this as a recurring dynamic. What does "from the river to the sea" mean? What is "critical race theory"? What does "all lives matter" mean? A surprising amount of politics ends up being channeled through contested meanings of used phrases and symbols.
I'm sure there's an academic phrase that already describes this. But in the absence of knowing it, I will call this the strange politics of meaning assignment. Here's the idea. In a polarized political environment with little communication between the two sides, you can easily rile up your side by providing an uncharitable interpretation to the other side's symbols or phrases. This is what that means, you announce. Now you can see the real them. Finally, they are saying the quiet part out loud. This is who they are.
Sometimes that assigned meaning is correct, and being uncharitable is just being accurate. In that case, fair enough. But, often enough to matter, meaning might be contested. A particular symbol or phrase may have different meanings to different people. A particular use may be innocuous or in a context where the meaning is uncertain. In that setting, assignment of meaning can cause a lot of trouble. It can effectively create a meaning that isn't what those who use that symbol or phrase mean.
I have no personal knowledge of what particular flags mean, so I have no idea to what extent the Alito flag stories reflect this dynamic. But it seems to me that a lot of attention in our politics raises this concern. A phrase or symbol is noted; someone on the other side will declare that this is what it means; and off the two sides go, with completely different understandings of the facts because they have assigned different meanings to symbols or phrases.
None of this is to doubt that there are real differences in political opinions, or that some symbols and phrases are profoundly disturbing. But I wonder if something is lost when we focus on the symbols and phrases rather than try to address the underlying disagreements directly.
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Feel free to try to offer a benign explanation of the Alito household’s flag-flying, professor. Or a defense of Alito’s ethics and judicial temperament in general.
I predict you will not. You’re not Blackman. But that isn’t saying much.
There's a reason you're (seemingly dishonestly) referencing the "Alito household's" actions, while demanding that Alito himself recuse from any number of cases. Sotomayor weeps.
Un-American flags were displayed at two Alito houses. He blamed one on the wife, but not under oath and somewhat disingenuously (that ‘personal, not political’ bullshit). He hasn’t explained the other.
Alito households. If the un-American flag fits . . .
A historical American flag is un-American?
You got bigger problems than anyone ever would have guessed.
What about a revolutionary-era flag is inherently un-American, in your view?
When it is used by a bunch of bigoted, half-educated, obsolete, superstitious, disaffected, antisocial, right-wing insurrectionists who hate modern America, better Americans recognize it as un-American.
You worthless societal rejects helped talk Volokh right off the UCLA campus and out of academia. Feel free to do the same for the other Volokh Conspirators. Legitimate campuses will be better off without them. Just ask UCLA’s dean.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit. Not a step beyond.
Ho, ho, ho, Artie! When will you apply your "principles" to people on your side of the aisle?
"What about a revolutionary-era flag is inherently un-American, in your view?"
The key word here is Revolution (with its complementary words, Sedition, Insurrection, Autogolpe, Coup, plus associated mob violence).
The Pine Tree Flag’s original provenance, at least as George Washington described it, was a literal call on the gods to intervene on his side, in a revolution against the government.
And that—a call for violent, unlawful, literally god-blessed revolution against the lawful government of the United States, in hopes of changing it from a democratic representative constitutional republic to National Conservativism's dream of an authoritarian theocracy—remains its contemporary meaning by the majority of people who have taken up the "AN APPEAL TO HEAVEN" Pine Tree Flag in recent years.
Including, most likely, Justice Alito. I do not think that, yes, "un-"American" (or anti-USA) message by a Supreme Court Justice is a good thing.
He's doing his Columbo routine. He's a somewhat bemused professor, just asking questions, and confused when people question his bona fides.
Better than most of the others, but still just another clinger. Such a waste
"or that some symbols and phrases are profoundly disturbing."
I wasn't aware of any possible interpretation of any of the symbols or phrases under discussion were advocating cannibalism or even beastiality.
Some find insurrection disturbing. Others can’t spell.
Which insurrection is that?
Ask around at the D.C. cellblocks. Look for the whimpering clingers.
Did they attack Secret Service agents four years ago?
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators.
And the reason you won't be having any more gatherings at UCLA.
Which school will be crossed off that list next?
Behold, Professor Kerr: One of the ignorami that cannot correctly assign meaning to an event witnessed by himself and a few other Americans
You can only wish that you had half his-brain and 1/4th of his good sense.
I wish Prof. Kerr hadn’t squandered his talents on the clingerverse and this bigoted shitstorm of a white, male, right-wing blog.
I guess he figures he has to be able to look the Alitos in the eye at the next Federalist Society event.
Ho, ho, ho, Artie! What are you squandering your talents on? Or do you have any?
I'm telling professor Kerr to behold Michael Ejercito, the ignorami
Well, your ambiguous phrasing read [to me and others] as you declaring Kerr to be "ignorami."
Anyway, your malice came through clearly, so all wasn't lost in translation. And Angry Arthur, also having misread your comment, covered your wing with even more nastiness than you would muster, so.....GOOOOO TEAM!!!!!!!!!
Always funny to watch the hand-wringing over symbols. Loved the "ok" sign white supremacy thing that was all the pearl clutching rage a few years ago.
Symbols are powerful things.
Flags, wedding rings, religious icons, etc. Have a lot of meaning to people. Robert Jackson talked about it in the flag salute case.
Bound to be some "handwringing" about them.
Symbols can be powerful things. They can also be completely innocuous.
When you're making a bigger deal about your political opponent's symbol than he ever did, that's an indicator that you're not at the "powerful thing" end of the spectrum.
The Alitos made quite a spectacle of their un-American symbols.
Even ran them up a flagpole or two!
Carry on, clingers. So far as better Americans permit, and that's it.
look at the metamorphosis of meanings the words "gay", or "black" or "colored" have undergone in the last 50 or so years....
No need to soft-pedal at the Volokh Conspiracy. This white, male, bigot-hugging blog loves explicit racial slurs. Just not so much on campus anymore.
Professor Kerr : What does “from the river to the sea” mean? What is “critical race theory”? What does “all lives matter”
Three questions, three answers:
1. “From the river to the sea” means two things : For Palestinian and Israeli radicals, it means pretending millions of people don’t exist. Whether chanted by Hamas terrorists or found in the Likud party platform, it is an imagined faux future in which Jews or Palestinians (respectively) lack minimal political rights while Palestinians or Jews (respectively) rule unimpeded – with no concern for a whole other population roughly equal in size to their own. As toxic invective, it’s reasonable to give the Hamas’ usage an edge, because their organization is so loathsome – but only a slight one. Remember : Israel’s record is one of ugly, brutal, and vicious oppression.
And the other meaning? It’s a catchy slogan/great political theater for some college kids. I doubt the poor dears have worked out it’s the same dead-end future as the current status quo, just mirror opposite.
2. “Critical race theory” is (again) two things. First, it’s an unversity-level theory that analyzes racist factors embeded in social, legal and political structures. Second, it’s a boogeyman scare-word for the whiny White grievance crowd who see it everywhere except where it actually exists.
3. “All lives matter” is (once again) two things. On the one hand, it’s a kinda sweet saying you’d find surprising & heartwarming to hear coming from a sour addled Right-winger. But then you see several dozen comments in this forum from the whiniest of White grievance mongers, all seething with rage because the Blacks have their BLM slogan and that’s so unfair! It’s racist!. It leaves them out!
All of which is completely pathetic. But there’s no victimhood like Right-wing victimhood; it’s pretty much religion and worldview for them by now. So from their two-year-old-grade jealousy & resentment, the counter-slogan “All lives matter” was born.
You are not the commenter a right-wing professor was looking for.
1. “From the river to the sea” simply means “Israel delenda est.” You are then entitled to imagine what would then happen. As you suggest, pretty much all Palestinians and pretty much all Israelis, and pretty much everybody else too, imagine one thing, and birdbrained idiots imagine something else. Also some people who agree with the vast majority of Palestinians and Israelis pretend to be birdbrained idtiots and pretend to imagine something else.
btw Israeli Arabs have the vote, and control about 10% of the seats in the Knesset.
2. Astonishingly I agree with your first definition of CRT. It is the analysis of society founded on the axiom that everything is a nail. It is the attempt to implement solutions to The Great Nail Problem that leads to all the hammering about whch people complain. Also people object to their children being relentlessly drilled in the baby version of The Great Nail Problem in preference to being taught a bit of math. Or even spelinge.
3. “All lives matter” is a slogan invented in reaction to the “Black Lives Matter” slogan. Neither slogan is intended to be taken literally. BLM was crafted as an anodyne way to draw the sheeple into agreement with the proposition that “The police, because they are racist scum, enjoy shooting black folk just for fun, and so we insist that …Black Lives Matter.” The sheeple are not supposed to notice the prefatory clause, and to the credit of the crafters of the slogan, mostly they didn’t.
“All Lives Matter” is intended to deny the prefatory clause.
As somebody says higher up, Prof Kerr is just doing his Columbo thing. People assign uncharitable meanings to what other people say. Sometimes they are correctly deducing the real message, sometime not. Likewise people sometimes make statements that say what they really mean. But sometimes they dissemble. Meet the human race, or as I should say, the human nail.
You’re a worthless, doomed conservative bigot. I will celebrate your replacement. Feel free to stop afflicting modern America any day now.
You will celebrate our replacement.
There is the reason Dems support abortion. It normalizes the killing of unwanted human beings. They use "trans" ideology in order to sterilize many more of their unwanted human beings. Now they push MAID, working from the senior citizen end.
Now you say you will celebrate our death in a sentence that means "from the river to the sea" for your political enemies.
and we have the first victim of the morning to be destablized by the Rev
I don't advocate killing clingers.
I advocate observing the cranky old conservatives take their stale, ugly thinking to the grave in the normal course, at which point they are replaced -- in our electorate and population -- by better, younger, less rural, less religious, less bigoted, less backward, more diverse Americans.
It's the natural course. And the American way.
Lee Moore : “(venting)”
1. What I “imagine” isn’t imagination, but plain simple fact. “From the river to the sea” means one side dominating the other, unless you actually believe the Israelis (or Palestinians) are willing to grant full political rights to their enemies. We already know the Israelis won’t. They want the land but not the people who've always lived on it. Those people are stateless and will remain so as long as the Israeli government thinks it can get away with that (even as they steal the land, settlement by settlement.
BTW : Yes, the Israeli government accepts a Palestinian minority as long as their numbers don’t threaten the country’s demographics. Of course they are decidely second-class citizens, both in ways structured into the laws & by plain-old discrimination. Of the former, check into the system where Israeli citizens buy land. It’s run by the state (which controls 93% of the land) and decidedly tilted against the country’s Palestinian citizens. Of the latter, look at Israel’s two-tier education system. It would make a Jim Crow Southerner blush.
Of course they still have it better than the apartheid-style rule over the West Bank, where (for instance) Israel issued just thirty-three building permits for Palestinians between 2017 and 2021 (they don’t want those people building anything) and settlers have free reign to harass and terrorize Palestinians with knowing their violence will get no government response. The rule of law doesn’t apply to Palestinians.
2. White grievance is so divorced from reality. If your cohort of professional victim whiners didn’t need a scary buzzword, no one would have ever heard of Critical Race Theory. It would have remained ensconced deep in academia. People may well object to it being taught to their children – but only if they’re dumbass stupid enough to believe the lie that’s happening. Are you?
3. Black Lives Matters is based on the idea violence against Blacks is regularly justified and excused. There are too many cases where that’s painfully obvious to reject out of hand. Hell, we saw obvious proof just days ago. Consider the case of Daniel Perry: He spent weeks talking about killing BLM protestors on social media, did internet searches on killing protesters, bragged he was a “racist”, told his friends he’d have to shoot some BLM demostrators, drove dozens of miles to a protest site without any reason to go there, ran a red light to drive right into the middle of a crowd (he could have easily driven around them), then killed his protester. The man he murdered had a gun and Perry told police he was afraid the man might point it at him.
He was convicted of murder by a jury of his peers, but Texas Governor Abbot pardoned the killer. Why? because he murdered an acceptable class of victim. Want to know what’s really funny? The protester Perry killed was White. But – hey – his wife was Black so maybe that was enough for Abbot and the trash he panders too.
Looks like we pretty much agree on the meaning of the phrases in question, if not on whether those meanings convey eternal truths.
Not quite sure where the "venting" comes in. Are you venting ? Am I supposed to be venting ? Who's venting ? Is this a "venting" with a secret symbolic meaning that is too deep for me ? And Prof Kerr ?
Astonishingly I agree with your first definition of CRT. It is the analysis of society founded on the axiom that everything is a nail.
You are being unfair. An analysis of society that focuses on the importance of race is not necessarily one that denies that there are other factors at work as well.
And of course race is a hugely important factor in understanding American society, both historically and at present. Should we ignore that and pretend it was all just happy darkies playing banjos and dancing?
I could undertake to do "Critical Immigration Theory" to investigate the importance of immigration in shaping our society, for example, without contending that it explained anything.
grb said - and I agree - that CRT analyses racist factors in social, legal and political structures. It does not analyse whether there are racist factors in these structures - that there are is an axiom.
I agree of course that it would be possible, even with racist factors as an axiom, to conclude that racist factors here were very trivial compared to some other factors, whereas there racist factors were more important but not overwhelmingly so. But in practice I think CRT analysts find what they’re looking for.
If you can find me some published research by a reasonably recognised CRT scholar which analyses the racist factors in some area of social, legal, political life and concludes that they’re not very important, I will give you a free banana.
Until then I’m sticking with The Great Nail Problem as the basic menu item.
What is pathetic is your distorted rhetoric in defense of distorted rhetoric.
Now I expect a harangue of insults in response. But they change nothing.
No contribution as always, Don. You've got the cutiest shtick going. We see you forever complaining about "insults", yet you wantonly spew invective in all directions - while offering zero substance to accompany your spleen.
Cut Don Nico some slack. Adult-onset superstition, old-timey right-wing bigotry, and clinger replacement anxiety are severe obstacles to try to overcome.
I think this is one of the better interpretations, though I dislike the the patronizing sound of "poor dears."
As for Flight-ER-Doc's comment, YES! As a recovering sociologist, I am fascinated by the ways that terms gain and shed (and gain and shed again) meanings. This has happened throughout human history, but I think the age of electronic social media has definitely sped the process.
Consequently, we need to speed our reaction to that process (response is not quite the correct word--maybe uptake? I think that's better). The linguistic and intellectual world is changing more quickly than ever before, and it behooves us to Keep Up.
The Folding Attorney : "...I dislike the the patronizing sound of “poor dears.”
Fair enough. On the other hand, anyone who protests Israeli oppression of the Palestinians by imagining the latter getting to oppress the former deserves some scorn.
They should aim higher.
Fair point, well taken. Alas, slogans are awfully attractive.
This reminds me of the granddaddy of all meaning assignment, the confederate flag. This article discusses the various meanings to various people throughout time: https://acwm.org/blog/myths-misunderstandings-confederate-flag/
The most surprising part to me was the backlash among Southern politicians that the confederate flag had somehow been desecrated through use in southern rock and (I presume) on the top of muscle cars. I aways thought that use would have been seen as a glorification by those who want to fly it, and I suppose I feel a little better about my Freebird and Dukes of Hazzard fandom knowing otherwise.
John Coski? Former mouthpiece of the Museum of the Confederacy? Wants to tell us about the overlooked positives of the flag of losers, traitors, and bigots? That’s your point?
Not even a good try, clinger.
Your comment sort of proves the point of this post. Nothing in the post identifies a positive about the flag, only the meaning of it and its use to different groups of people. You have no idea what I think it means. “Overlooked positives” is your meaning.
Somehow Mr. Coski's article fails to mention the original meaning of the Confederate battle flag to those who originally flew it: support of treason in service of human chattel slavery.
It's almost as if you folks didn't read Orin's original post. I mean, I literally called the confederate flag the "granddaddy of all meaning assignment" and here the first two commenters assign their own meaning to it (whether right or wrong) while disputing the varied meanings assigned by another who they disagree with.
I did not dispute any meaning currently assigned to the Confederate battle flag by any person or group. I merely observed that a commenter's omission of the original meaning is most curious. Why do we think it was then called a battle flag?
Not curious to those familiar with Mr. Coski's resume.
He worked at the Museum of the Confederacy. For years. Voluntarily, it appears.
A true scholar, some might say.
Some = clingers.
he first two commenters assign their own meaning to it
No. They report on its original meaning, and its later meanings are worse.
Now do the Stars and Stripes
You're gonna need some :
(a) treason
(b) slavery AND
(c) a refusal to pay taxes
Makes you think, hmmm?
I’m not sure you’d prefer the regime against which the American revolutionaries rebelled.
A regime btw which itself took power in The Glorious Revolution. It’s revolutions all the way down.
As Toranaga puts it in Shogun, there is no justification for rebellion against your lawful ruler. None. Unless you win.
LM, hmmmm, OK.
"(a) treason"
Of course! Surely you know that had the American Revolution been unsuccessful (and it was no sure thing), its leaders fully understood they would be considered rebels and traitors. They knew their fates would have been, in the words of Benjamin Franklin, to "surely hang separately." History is written by the winners so, yes, of course that's how you would remember them today.
But that didn't happen. They won, were the good guys (mostly, given the standards of the times), and so instead are remembered as our venerated Founders.
The insurgency mounted by the rebel Confederates, however, was unsuccessful. They didn't win. They were and remain, de facto and de jure, traitors to the United States of America. Also, because their sole reason for rebelling and fighting a civil war was to defend White Men's Rights to enslave Black human beings and treat them as property, they truly were and remain the bad guys.
"(b) slavery"
Yup. There's a reason it's known as our America's original sin, abetted by the U. S. Constitution's 3/5th Compromise, which fed into the Electoral College and, with Senate misrepresentation of actual population were, wholly or partly, included to retain for a time undetermined, White Men's Rights to enslave Black human beings and treat them as property.
Relates to (a) above: "They won, were the good guys (mostly, given the standards of the times)..."
"(c) a refusal to pay taxes"
Well, if appending "...without representation, correct! Not sure why you're including it here. While No Taxation Without Representation was only one of the revolution's justifications (See the Declaration of Independence for a handy list), it was certainly the one that got the most press.
Not sure you made the point you were trying for here. Because what you asked isn't hard. Or is it that you agree with the views of Florida and Texas that the first two items as I just described them should be, ummm, deemphasized in any discussion of or education about U.S. History? And the third should just embarrass us? True! At least in your Sovereign Citizen representation—which the rest of the story addendum makes far less embarrassing.
Did I get your message wrong? Always interested in new information or verifiable corrections.
It turns out that just as you were tapping out the only justification for rebelling against your lawful ruler, I was tapping it out just above - more briefly.
The reason I remind folks that the American Republic was founded by a traitorous rebellion, is that some folks do get very sanctimonious about insurrections. Pots and kettles. The trick is to be the winning pot not the losing kettle.
As to taxes, on average the sanctimonious folk tend to be the same ones as regard taxes as holy and the desire to pay less of them as a marker of darkness and evil.
Why do you say “…the only justification for rebelling against your lawful ruler?” Especially when the paragraph you seem to have gotten that from included “…was only one of the revolution’s justifications.”
Indeed, we’re talking here about a very different justification, one with thousands of years of tradition:
My God says I’m right, and he can beat up your god!
So, a call for violent, unlawful, literally god-blessed revolution against the lawful government of the United States, in hopes of changing it from a democratic representative constitutional republic to National Conservativism’s dream of an authoritarian theocracy—was the original and remains the contemporary meaning to the majority of people who have taken up the “AN APPEAL TO HEAVEN” Pine Tree Flag in recent years.
And, yes, it’s a tradition that perfectly aligns with Justice Alito’s history around the use of his judicial powers.
(Oh, and "more briefly". You're right, being overly concise is not among my many faults.)
Surely you know that had the American Revolution been unsuccessful (and it was no sure thing), its leaders fully understood they would be considered rebels and traitors. They knew their fates would have been, in the words of Benjamin Franklin, to “surely hang separately.” History is written by the winners so, yes, of course that’s how you would remember them today. But that didn’t happen. They won
The insurgency mounted by the rebel Confederates, however, was unsuccessful. They didn’t win. They were and remain, de facto and de jure, traitors to the United States of America.
I thought you summed it up rather well. When it comes down to it, what matters is whether you win or not. If you win, it doesn't matter whether your stated justification is a good one or not. You won. Ergo you're not a traitor, you're in the right. And if you lose it doesn't matter whether your justification is a good one or not. You lost. Ergo you are a traitor, you're in the wrong..
So the stated justifications are decorative. The only functional justification is winning. If you lose, you're a traitor.
Sanctimony amuses me. That's all.
If you didn't watch it eons ago, watch Shogun. It's good fun.
Dunno about that...I think words have meanings. So, let’s counter the Toranaga "justification" with a different fictional character of less sanctimony but perhaps greater wisdom, Inigo Montoya...
So, let's not limit ourselves tofunctional—though even in that, one very functional justification short of winning, is making progress toward winning the next time.
Had George W. Bush or Barack Obama been presented the opportunity of a guaranteed electoral victory at the cost of America surviving only as a broken republic, I have no doubt neither would have taken it. There’s also no doubt that Donald Trump, unconcerned with democracy, sought it.
Indeed, as a sitting President, Trump sought to prevent a successor constitutionally chosen by the American people, from taking office, tried to turn our elected representatives into sycophants pledging loyalty only to him, strove to replace our representative democracy with his own (well, he doesn't know or care exactly what, as long as he's in full, authoritarian, charge).
Trump didn't win—the January 6th, 2021 violence he provoked managed to delay Congress for a few hours but did not prevent the peaceful transfer of power. America prevailed, proving resilient enough to survive this persistent Presidential perfidy—this time. Yet Trump tried, to the best of his abilities. He deserves no credit for failing.
That January 6th, he said "Remember this day forever." Yes, let us forever remember Donald Trump’s attempted autogolpe, but also the months and years leading to it, and his continuing years of preparation for a second seditious attempt.
I'm sorry representative democracy seems only to amuse you. But I guess we all need a hobby, so keep telling yourself whatever it takes to get you through the night.
We’re obviously talking at cross purposes. I’m talking about the general principles pertaining to the justification of revolutions, and the absurdity of those getting themselves sanctimoniously horrified in principle about revolution …. against another revolution !
The American Republic was founded in the sin of revolution. Defense of the constitution is ipso facto a defense of revolution. You can't be a defender of the constitution without being a defender of revolution. Revolution is in the bones of the American Republic.
Meanwhile you’re obviously just a Jan 6 obsessive.
But concerning your obsession – how many people have been convicted of insurrection in connection with Jan 6 ? It’s not as if it should be hard to get a conviction in DC.
"The reason I remind folks that the American Republic was founded by a traitorous rebellion, is that some folks do get very sanctimonious about insurrections. Pots and kettles. The trick is to be the winning pot not the losing kettle."
You really believe that agreeing with the cause of a revolution requires you to support all revolutions everywhere at all times? Does that include counter-revolutions? Or do you just glom on after the fact to successful revolutions, regardless of ideology?
What you call "sanctimony" is what most of us call "principles." Technically "be the winning pot" is a principle, I suppose, but it's an evil one.
No, you're missing the point entirely.
It has become fashionable for people of a certain sort to criticise Trump and his Trumpkins for "insurrection" or attempted revolution or whatever, claiming that that ipso facto is sufficient to condemn him and them. What more do you need to know ?
But as you correctly point out, not all revolutons are equal. Some may have good reasons and some may have bad.
But if you live in a land founded on a revolution against the lawful government, and justified in part by an appeal to God, and you support that revolution, you are in no position to condemn those of your fellow countrymen who engage in revolution (we stipulate) and appealing to God for their justification, simply for being revolutionaries (or insurrectionists.)
The prim cries of "Insurrection ! Horror !" are sanctimonious.
The Trumpkins can justly be condemned by King George simply for being insurrectionists (we persist with the stipulation) , but they cannot be condemned by Americans simply for being insurrectionists. That's the joke. The burglars who stole the silver are up in arms about people trying to burgle their silver. There are burglars afoot ! The horror ! But burglars cannot condemn burglary unconditionally. They have to distinguish between good and bad burglary. And many critics of the Trumpkins are too lazy to try. Burglary is enough they cry. Sanctimoniously.
American condemnation needs to go further than substantiating mere insurrection, it has to establish bad insurrection, for patriotic Americans are required to reject the notion that insurrections are bad per se. King George is not so constrained.
Trump engaged in insurrection against the United States. There may be people who condemn this on the grounds that insurrection is inherently bad--who would equally condemn him if he had engaged in insurrection against Putin--but I haven’t encountered this view anywhere. If you can identify people who actually hold the view you are arguing against--not people who don’t mention that the insurrection was against the United States because they assume that their audience already knows that fact, but people who explicitly state that the target of the insurrection is irrelevant to them--I would be interested in knowing who these people are. Otherwise I must suspect you of attacking a straw man.
You’re just repeating Toronaga’s point. Rebellion against the current regime is treasonous (by definition) and reprehensible because it is rebellion against the current regime. King George thought exactly the same thing. Only he thought it in German.
The Southerners thought about their rebellion, just what you think about the 1776 rebellion. What you think about the Southerners rebellion is just what King George thought about the 1776 rebellion.
Rebels are always wrong in the eyes of the rebelled against.
The Toronaga point is a different one – it is a cynical recognition of realpolitik.
All existing regimes regard revolutions as wicked per se. (There never was a polity more hostile to revolutions than the Bolshevik regime once it was in power. Counter-revolution was always the number one threat and enemy. )
The only revolutions that are accepted as good and justified by an actual government are the revolutions that put that government in power (if that is how the government came to power.) All other ones are illegitimate. By definition.
Toronaga’s point – obviously – is that a ruler is necessarily one eyed about rebellions against the lawful ruler. They are always and necessarily bad….unless they are the one that put me in power. No current or future rebellion can be justified. Only past ones, and only if they were successful.
It's amazing (to me) how much of this stuff - stochastic terrorism, "doxxing", and speaking-in-code to flash verbal tribal banners rather than to convey meaningful content - was pioneered (at least for our current generation) by the anti-abortion people in the 1990s.
For instance, take the word "protection". As if right-to-lifers were only demanding that the unborn get the same protections which ordinary people get, when in fact they are demanding government-mandated shelter and life-support by accessing the insides of the patient's body, against her will, longer than she chooses to allow.
It’s amazing (to me) how much of this stuff – stochastic terrorism, “doxxing”, and speaking-in-code to flash verbal tribal banners rather than to convey meaningful content – was pioneered (at least for our current generation) by the anti-abortion people in the 1990s.
How do you deduce this?
Usually, if you think someone else is occuping space that belongs to you, and you want them out of there, you aren't allowed to kill them. You have to urge them to leave of their own accord, or call the cops.
When the cops arrive, they're not allowed to kill them either - unless the squatters start shooting of course. If my analysis of the law is incorrect, then feel free to forward your "Kill the occupiers !" memo to any and all university police departments.
I understand that the space you want unwanted babies to be evicted from is very much more personal than your apartment, but rape victims aside, you invited them.
Didn't the KKK have, like, loads of different little signals they'd flash at each other? And neo-Nazis have their little numerical codes.
This is disingenuous. Nobody, whether supporter or opponent, seriously claims that “from the river to the sea” and “critical race theory” have two meanings. Don’t confuse the tactic of denying that something has a meaning at all, or of claiming not to know the meaning, with a positive claim that there is one but it differs from the originators’ version. At most there are some college students who think that “from the river to the sea” means something else, but that’s because they aren’t aware of the original meaning, not because they intentionally chose the innocent meaning in preference to the bad one.
And in the case of the flags, the second meanings are the racist ones, so you don't even have to choose a different meaning in order to legitimately intend one. You just need to keep the one that's already there.
"Don’t confuse the tactic of denying that something has a meaning at all, or of claiming not to know the meaning, with a positive claim that there is one but it differs from the originators’ version."
I feel like this is an important point. The majority of college students I have seen confronted regarding the "River to the Sea" motto seem like dumbasses repeating something without knowing its provenance.
What do they say it means?
Usually, something that vaguely relates to an independent Palestinian State, even if many are unfamiliar with the Two-State solution that’s long been the U.S. government’s formal position.
If the inevitable consequence of the literal meaning is pointed out to them, some change to a similarly vague of course I don’t mean that, while others are too embarrassed to admit it. But a few (though definitely some), absolutely do mean it.
Hmmmm…in that, similar to much of the Commentariat here.
There is no reason to suppose the meaning of, "APPEAL TO HEAVEN," is any more fixed in Alito's mind than in anyone else's. If he misunderstood that meaning when he flew the flag, he ought to be fully informed by now.
The issue is not whether Alito should punished for flying the flag without understanding it. The issue is whether knowing what he can reasonably be expected to know now, Alito will recognize his obligation to recuse, based on the impossibility to re-establish an appearance of impartiality.
Recuse from what?
From any case where the petitioner is an American, since that's the nationality which was favored by the Massachusetts naval militia flag.
I had not thought of that before.
"The issue is whether knowing what he can reasonably be expected to know now, Alito will recognize his obligation to recuse"
That does not follow at all. And don't hold your breath waiting.
Which do you figure will occur first, Don Nico . . . (1) better Americans arrange a Supreme Court that relegates Alito to writing seething dissents that rely not on the Federal Reporter system but instead on a concordance, or (2) Israel's right-wing belligerents lose American support and consequently the entire ballgame?
Me? I will welcome either sequence.
"...Alito will recognize his obligation to recuse, based on the impossibility to re-establish an appearance of impartiality."
That's bullshit. That's what the left wants, the Democrats want, and is the entire point of their campaign to malign Thomas, Alito, and all of the other conservative justices.
Let me ask you: how does having and expressing a particular view make a justice not impartial? Does that apply to liberal justices as well? Justices who cry when decisions come down on the conservative side, for example? What's the standard for justices, that they don't have any political or social views or positions, that they be completely un-opinionated robots of some kind? But, of course, only when they are justices whose opinions you don't like?
According to your standard, the appearance of impartiality, there would be no justices to hear cases! And, there is no standard in law or otherwise to support that.
What message was Alito trying to convey, do you think?
The word you were looking for is Hermeneutics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics
I think that Semiotics is more on point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics
I'm fond of the metamorphosis of 'bless your heart'. Running out of perversions and pejoratives for their fellow man, the rubes have transmogrified [has there ever been a better use for that word than right in this comment?!] it to mean 'fuck you'. Classy
There is an analogue in French, where the phrase "Je suis désolé" - "I am sorry" - is commonly used as a euphemism for "fuck off".
That's not a metamorphosis - that's simple sarcasm. "Bless your heart" can be and still is used sincerely.
(If you have never had it used to you sincerely, maybe you should think about why that might be.)
I've seen numerous threads elsewhere where when the rednecks are in attack mode they start shooting out 'bless your heart's in unmistakable pejorative fashion. It's all in the same juvenile vein as Lets Go Brandon.
The original was a sincere Southernism, changed to a more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger mild Southern insult (I remember it being used that way back in the 1970's), adopted by the rest of America when it was used as sarcastic code on the TV sitcom, Designing Women, and, now very overused, mostly retains that meaning.
The Northeast version is, btw, You sweet summer child.
"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
I am reminded that this is both often quoted, and completely misunderstood (see also, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
Lewis Carroll was first and foremost a logician. He was familiar with the debates over language of his time (which predate Wittgenstein). Then, the debate was between conceptual realists (think Plato, words are real ideas) and nominalists (meaning is independent of use).
Carroll was a nominalist, stating that a writer was allowed to make any meaning of a word that he wanted to use (although for logic, he should define it). The conversation between Alice and Humpty, if you read through it, explores the problems that if you are defining your own meaning, how can you communicate that to others (as in Wittgenstein's private language). If you keep reading, you see Humpty failing to explain "glory," since it requires further and further explanations.
But the idea that Carroll, who coined so many neologisms and portmanteaus in his own work (slithy!) was attributing the meaning to that statement for which it is invoked is ... funny.
Which means that every time you see it on the internet, you can laugh a little. I do.
Haha, welcome to the real world!
“Defining your opponent,” “character assassination,” and “monstrifying your opponent” before they can define themselves has been a thing for tens of thousands of years. Much easier to behead your enemies when they are considered evil ghoulish cattle.
Politics is just war, with words, and all’s fair. There is nothing new here (see early presidential elections for some epic character assassinations).
But: if your side is engaging in these silly arguments, its invariably because you’ve lost the argument. If you cant persuade them with facts, baffle them with bullshit!
“Defining your opponent,” “character assassination,” and “monstrifying your opponent” before they can define themselves has been a thing for tens of thousands of years.
Tens of thousands?
Did I miss the flame wars of Lascaux?
As I said in the other thread— while I might be willing to agree with this to some degree, “An appeal to heaven” is different.
Strip away all the overlay of J6 and just take the passage that the flag is directly quoting at face value. There is an explicit message being referenced, no decoder ring needed! What is Locke talking about?
I mean— I know why Leonard Leo flies it. But it strikes me as a strange message for especially someone like Alito— or any judge really— to be pushing, given his position in our country. He’s flying this thing at his beach house and not even a US flag (from the pictures I saw). What does that say about his view of America?
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Sometimes a flag is just a nice flag. A decoration.
But then, justices are entitled to positions, views, political leanings, and so on, just as anyone else. What's the problem here?
Need justices be completely neutral in all aspects of their life and being in order to be impartial in their official capacity? That is impossible. And, it's a standard the mainstream press and liberals, Democrats, apply only to conservative justices, because they don't like the courts' rulings.
The problem is the message that is written on the flag. Have you read the passage from Locke? What is he saying?
You keep going on about that . Just what do you find so objectionable about what Locke wrote:
“And where the body of the people, or any single man, is deprived of their right, or is under the exercise of a power without right, and have no appeal on earth, then they have a liberty to appeal to heaven, whenever they judge the cause of sufficient moment. And therefore, though the people cannot be judge, so as to have, by the constitution of that society, any superior power, to determine and give effective sentence in the case; yet they have, by a law antecedent and paramount to all positive laws of men, reserved that ultimate determination to themselves which belongs to all mankind, where there lies no appeal on earth, viz. to judge, whether they have just cause to make their appeal to heaven.”
Can you show us on the doll where the bad words touched you?
And here is a picture of the appeal to heaven flag being displayed at a protest.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tree_Flag#/media/File%3ABlack_Lives_Matter_protest_signs.jpg
“Can you show us on the doll where the bad words touched you?”
I have stated my problem with this repeatedly, both the other day and below to Lee Moore. That you have chosen to respond with the childish, creepy, weirdly sexualized contribution quoted above leads me to surmise you’re not really interested in a thoughtful exchange. Uh oh, don’t anyone tell Prof. Kerr I just ASSIGNED MEANING!
So I’ll just add this: buh bye!
No one is expecting Alito (of all people!) to be "completely neutral".
We are expecting him not to express it in a way which unavoidably calls into question his impartiality on certain matters which come before the Court.
(But, well done with your latest explanation-away of any possible expression of bias: "Maybe he just liked the pretty colors?").
Maybe Alito flying that Phillies flag isn’t signaling support for any particular team or even the sport of baseball at all! Have you libs considered the he could just really like the number 2??
What is meant by Alito flying this flag is truly one of the ancient arcane mysteries of the universe!
The only thing that would be truly irresponsible here would be to ASSIGN MEANING!
But it strikes me as a strange message for especially someone like Alito— or any judge really— to be pushing, given his position in our country.
Why ? The United States was founded by a revolution. To their lawful government, the founders were traitors. The Constitution was written by these revolutionary traitors. The Decaration of Independence expressly appeals to “Nature’s God.”
The USA has never been “anti-revolution” – it’s pro-revolution !
And it’s pro-revolution sanctioned by God !
Are you some kind of anti-American anti-revolutionary ?
Wouldn’t being pro-revolutionary today be definitionally anti-American?
The guy is at the top of the legal/judicial pyramid in this county— one of the nine most powerful jurists. The buck literally stops with him when it comes to rule of law in this country.
And he’s flying a flag quoting John Locke. If you read the passage you’ll get a sense of what Locke is saying; in short— “the rule of law is for suckers, I get my rights from [my particular flavor of] Christian god.” Does that strike you as contradictory in any way? If the guy doesn’t believe we live in a secular country bound by the rule of law, he should retire to a career of amateur flag flying and salmon fishing. At that point, I can assure you— nobody will give a shit what’s up his flagpole.
Not if the revolution he’s celebrating is the American Revolution that founded the Republic.
What makes you believe he’s celebrating a different one ?
Seems to me you’re doing a lot of that assumin’ at which Prof Kerr is raising an eyebrow above.
(But don’t let that stop you, “assumin’ “ is one of those 9th Amendment unspecified rights that the American Revolution has guaranteed to you. As of course is “eyebrow raisin’ “)
“What makes you believe he’s celebrating a different one ?”
What makes me think he doesn’t just like pictures of pretty trees? Every single thing about how the guy has behaved since he was elevated to the court, that’s what.
Cmon. We infer intent based on objective facts all the time.
To the extent this: “Seems to me you’re doing a lot of that assumin’ at which Prof Kerr is raising an eyebrow above” is an accurate summary of Prof. Kerr’s views, then he and I are in disagreement. Furthermore, I think this entire post suffers from what I’ve seen referred to elsewhere as “elite lawyer brain”.
Ps: let me ask you this: assume for a moment that I am right and Alito is flying this flag because he endorses the views of Locke as referenced. Are you comfortable living in a country where rights derive not from laws, or the constitution, but rather John Locke’s Calvinist God? And if your answer is no, how would you feel about someone at the apex of the legal system holding that view?
Well, since I’m not big on Calvinist Gods, I’m not sure I’d be appealing to that as the ultimate source of moral legitmacy for a polity.
But if I lived in a polity whose fundamental laws (assuming it had laws) clashed severely with my moral principles, I wouldn’t feel any moral obligation to obey those laws or to support that state. I might have prudential reasons for doing so but that’s different.
So I’m OK with the Declaration of Independence saying that your allegiance to the government of the place where you live, is subordinate to the fundamental Creator endowed rights (if you’re Creator-minded) of the people.
Obviously revolutions unleash lots of moral harm, and that means you need to be really sure that the evils that you complain of justify the “transaction” costs. But in principle – some revolutions are justified. If they break the laws of the polity revolted against – as they tend to do – tough noogies.
I’m not going to rely on your divination of Alito’s motivations, but I am happy to rely on the unremarkable fact that as a Supreme Court Justice he appears to be happy to be the heir of a successful traitorous rebellion. And since he’s a believer in God, I’m not at all surprised that he might justify that rebellion by an appeal to God – as the Founders themselves did. The mystery is why this would be a controversial line to take.
What makes you believe he’s celebrating a different one ?
Common sense?
...going to be hard to find someone to underwrite his Canadian salmon fishing though.
Prof. Kerr,
Good to see you posting again. You are missed. Reading this brought me back to the days of critical theory (just the regular version) in college, and S/Z and Mythologies. Semiotics is always interesting, and the question of the meaning to assign to signs and symbols ... well, you can go deep into that.
Part of the problem with signs is both that they can be used to signal to in-groups while both being plausibly deniable as well as unknown (or accidentally used) by others- for example, the "ok" hand symbol. Other times, they can be taken up by other who are unaware of the broader meanings ("from the river to sea" is repeated by a bunch of college kids who have no idea what it means other than something something Palestine, and I've had relatives talk about "all lives matter" because they think it's a nice way to talk about compassion without understanding the context that it arose).
There is no easy answer to this. I think when it comes to Alito, however, this is part and parcel of a sequence of issues; if it had been one flag. And if there hadn't been so many other curious issues involving him. And so on.
More to the point, I think that we are hitting a worrying point overall with the judiciary. Judges need to be held to the absolute highest standard, and they need to hold themselves to that as well.
I do agree that we should be more generous regarding ascribing the worst meanings of symbols to people we already would disagree with; AFAIK, Justice Alito has not remarked about the second flag, and we will see. That said, you are correct- the flags are nothing compared to the more important issue of Justices not realizing that there is a problem with very rich people buying long periods of access with them, and that living an extravagant lifestyle on someone else's dime begins to look suspect to the rest of us.
"... are nothing compared to the more important issue of Justices not realizing that there is a problem with very rich people buying long periods of access with them, and that living an extravagant lifestyle on someone else’s dime begins to look suspect to the rest of us."
Or ruling on cases involving a party who has paid you a huge amount of money (a publisher) and not recusing oneself.
If your very first thought is an immediate, kneejerk instinct to reply ... but what about the other side!!!! I am not going to talk about the principle, or the specific example, I am just going to make a non-substantive point that accuses the other side of doing something that might be somewhat similar!
.... then you are likely not trying to actually engage with the issue, but you are instead just trying to argue partisan points.
Not really interested, bruh.
Yes, to the extent that any justice is engaged in suspect activity, that is suspect. If you think Sotomayor's actions are questionable, then you think that Alito's actions (which involve a lot more money) and Thomas's actions (which involve a LOT more money) are much more questionable.
If you don't, then .... what? Are you patting yourself on the back? We should all want to hold judges to a higher standard, and, more importantly, judges should be holding themselves to that standard as well. This shouldn't be a partisan issue. Heck, in an ideal world, the judiciary wouldn't be politicized like it is so that bad actors would seek to ingratiate themselves.
It's a symptom of larger issues.
There's a huge difference between Alito, or a family member of his, flying a particular flag, and a justice taking money from a party in a case she decided upon. Don't you see that? And all of the outrage is about Alito, none about Sotomayor. Sounds kinda biased to me, don't you agree?
I bring it up because the outrage regarding Alito is ginned up because the left doesn't like the conservative court's decisions, and is attacking the conservative justices.
You're throwing Ginny and Clarence Thomas under the bus to try to help the Alitos?
Yikes!
Did you even read what I wrote?
...I can't tell if you are deliberately obtuse, or if acting that way is beneficial to your worldview.
But for what it's worth, try reading what I wrote again, slowly. Think about it. I know that this is hard, given that you have some canned points that you want to make, but actually think about it.
Or not! It's not like I expect that I expect this will change.
OK, let’s review David Louis Whitehead v. Netflix Inc. to see just outraged we should be that Sotomayor (and Gorsuch) failed to recuse from that case. The plaintiff is not represented by a lawyer in any of these proceedings. According to the original complaint, Whitehead submitted a proposal for 30 films to Netflix. Netflix failed to adequately review the proposal, resulting in them rejecting the proposal when they would have agreed to it if they adequately reviewed it. Furthermore, Netflix stole the idea for one of the films and uses it in a film that is not identified but is apparently part of the Black Panther superhero franchise. There is nothing in the complaint to indicate that Whitehead has any evidence to support these allegations.
Subsequent developments are largely hidden behind the PACER paywall, but we get superseding indictments that include additional defendants (apparently everyone who has any connection to the Black Panther film). This includes 12 identified defendants, three of which take the case seriously enough that they actually hire lawyers to defend the case. It also includes a bunch of unnamed defendants, one of which is designated UNNAMED RANDOM HOUSE PUBLISHER.
The trial court eventually rules that the case “is DISMISSED with prejudice pursuant to the Vexatious Litigant Prefiling Order.” (The referenced order from a different case, David L. Whitehead v. Millennium Films, 15-CV-3564-RGK(AGRx), Docket No. 229).
Whitehead appeals and a panel on the Nineth circuit affirms in a very brief unpublished decision which quotes a 1999 opinion stating that, “District courts have the inherent power to file restrictive pre-filing orders against vexatious litigants with abusive and lengthy histories of litigation. Such pre-filing orders may enjoin the litigant from filing further actions or papers unless he or she first meets certain requirements, such as obtaining leave of the court....”
Whitehead then files a Petition for a writ of certiorari with the Supreme Court. The only defendant remaining in the case (or at least the only one served) was NetFlix, which didn’t bother to file a response to the petition. I can’t fully summarize the ten presented questions and 32 pages of argument in the petition. The case was transferred from Texas to California at one point, and plaintiff argues that even though plaintiff agreed to this transfer, the transfer should have been denied because there were undresolved recusal motions that would become moot if the transfer were granted. The 9th Circuit converted an application for a writ of mandamus into an appeal of the decision to dismiss the case. A bunch of judges should have recused themselves.
The petition doesn’t argue that the case raises issues that the Federal courts are likely to encounter again in the future. Nor does it argue that the decision of the 9th Circuit contains an incorrect statement of law that the Supreme Court should correct.
The scenario that has Publius so concerned is that Sotomayor might read the petition and be inclined to grant it, but spot “UNNAMED RANDOM HOUSE PUBLISHER” in the list of defendants, and decide not to grant the petition to protect her publisher. That is ridiculous. There is no way Sotomayor or any other Supreme Court justice was ever going to vote to grant a petition like this.
I suppose you could argue that Sotomayor should have recused from this case on general principles, even if there was no possibility of her decision being affected in this case. But the principle seems questionable. An enterprising attorney thinking his case might eventually make it to the Supreme Court figures out which Justices are likely to be least favorable to his case, and identified the publishers of those justices’ books. He lists those publishers as unnamed defendants. No need to serve them. No need to introduce any evidence that they are related to the case. Under the standard endorsed by Publius, the targeted justices have to recuse, and perhaps the case is decided differently than it would be if the full court ruled on it. This scenario is a far fetched, but less so than the one justifying the recusal of Sotomayor (and Gorsuch) in this case.
I would suggest "The strange politics of assigning meaning."
"Assignment" is being used here as, what, a past-tense verb, or maybe even an adjective? Something that was assigned. But it's more commonly a noun, like an assignment a teacher gives you. I had to read it a few times to try and parse what you meant.
If someone misunderstands the meaning of a phrase, does their misunderstanding itself become a legitimate meaning?
It’s certainly happened plenty on this blog. The pro-Hamas folks have regularly claimed that, for example, “hasbarah,” which is Hebrew for “explanation” and implies diplomacy, is a secret codeword for intentional lying.
Hold on, surely "diplomacy" and "lying" are synonyms ?
What is "critical race theory"? What does "all lives matter" mean?
____
Seriously, professor? Is there a context to these in the common vernacular that people usually miss?
Has Calabresi gotten hold of your account?
Right. For example, the confederate battle flag (or whatever it's called) was long understood as a symbol of independence, decentralized self-government, rebel spirit, southern culture generally like a sports team logo or something, etc, and not as something nefarious or racist. Then it was weaponized for political propaganda reasons.
California 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxIWDmmqZzY
Of course, nobody asked black people what they thought if this whitewashing.
Well, maybe not nobody. https://nypost.com/2015/07/20/black-confederate-flag-supporter-dies-in-crash-after-angry-exchange/
Poor guy, but his job is done. Now you don’t have to listen to the rest.
That was a very superficial understanding. The deeper understanding was always that the Confederation flag was a symbol of treason and racism - but the promotion of the superficial understanding was very convenient for those who wished to fly it.
Sure. And the US flag was too, then.
This is the whole problem with the idea of “dog whistles.” I’m convinced actual dog whistles are vanishingly rare, compared with accusations of “dog whistling” that are just an excuse for meaning assignment.