President of State University in California Put on Leave After Making Deal with Protesters

Politico (Blake Jones) reported yesterday:

California State University placed Sonoma State campus President Mike Lee on leave Wednesday after he agreed to protesters' demands to involve them in university decision-making and pursue divestment from Israel.

Lee sent a campus-wide memo Tuesday indicating that he had made several concessions to occupants of a pro-Palestinian encampment on campus. The memo was sent "without the appropriate approvals," CSU Chancellor Mildred García said in a statement, adding that she and the 23-campus CSU system's board are "actively reviewing the matter."

"For now, because of this insubordination and the consequences it has brought upon the system, President Lee has been placed on administrative leave," García said….

Lee told the campus that he would initiate an academic boycott of Israel, in which links to study abroad programs in the country would be removed from university pamphlets, among other measures….

Comments

[TwelveInchPianist]

Jeez

But following a swift backlash from pro-Israel groups and the wider California state university system, Lee apologized for agreeing to the boycott, saying that it “marginalized” other students and caused harm.

Do these people not even understand what a ball is?

[Krayt]

saying that it “marginalized” other students

The trained buzzwording is stunning.

[Bwaaah]

The lack of inclusiveness implicit in your remark is harmful to marginalized communities that lack your privilege.

[Scooter]

No, they don't. They also appear to largely agree with the position taken by the 'protestors'.

[shawn_dude]

Any evidence to back this up? There are 23 campuses in the CSU system and this is one of the smaller ones. The others haven't made any agreements to cut ties with Israel. 1/23rd seems awfully thin to support "largely agree with."

[TwelveInchPianist]

The sooner people figure out that this is a cult, the better.

[Sarcastr0]

Trying to make rhetoric real is a way to end up frustrated forever.

[TwelveInchPianist]

What part of what I said isn’t real?

[Sarcastr0]

Oh, I think you know what I'm taking issue with.

Stop calling stuff you don't like a cult.

[TwelveInchPianist]

No, I don't.

What do you think I don't like, that I'm calling a cult?

Do you think I don't like the fact that the President admitted he was wrong for agreeing to the boycott?

If you've got something to say, say it.

[Sarcastr0]

It's not a cult; that's rhetoric.
You appear to be taking it seriously. That's dumb.

I don't see how you could have found that unclear.

[TwelveInchPianist]

What are you talking about?

Cults use rhetoric all the time. Your implication that it can't be cult like because it's rhetoric makes no sense.

I'm calling it a cult because of the dogmatic, ritualistic nature of the rhetoric.

And in what sense is calling his rhetoric cult-like "taking it seriously"?

Everything you've said in this sub-thread has been nonsense, Sarcastro.

[Sarcastr0]

You: "The sooner people figure out that this is a cult, the better."

I'm talking about the rhetoric of you *calling something a cult* not a cult using rhetoric.

You're calling it a cult because it's dogmatic? Just call it dogmatic then; quit with the melodrama.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"But following a swift backlash from pro-Israel groups and the wider California state university system, Lee apologized for agreeing to the boycott, saying that it “marginalized” other students and caused harm."

I'm calling it a cult because it's dogmatic and ritualistic to the point of being a cult, or cult-like.

[Sarcastr0]

Ritualistic.

You've become a silly man.

[Commenter_XY]

It is a cult, with cultish behavior, and dogmatic; all are true.

[Randal]

It’s not a cult. Who’s the leader?

QAnon is a cult. It’s in the name.

MAGA is a cult that believes anything its great orange prophet says.

Catholicism is a cult. That, in a word, is what Martin Luther didn't like about it.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Kettle, pot.

[TwelveInchPianist]

And to be clear, Sarcastro, are you defending the President's apology?

[Sarcastr0]

I'm not talking about it.

I don't know the facts here, so I'm not really going to go in on good or bad with these schools' policies. If you check, you'd see I've made a practice of that on these issues.

I take issue with commenters here insisting that crackdowns are the only way (or if anyone says that negotiation is costless and should always be the solution).

You're a notable offender on the 'call in the cops and bring on the force' one solution train.

But then you've hated our school system for a long time now. I remember the sudden sharp turn.

[Don Nico]

" quit with the melodrama."
Geez, one of your standard ways to say that you disagree. Stop making every disagreement another of your dramas

[Sarcastr0]

I presume you misthreaded.

I pointed to the melodrama I was taking issue with. If you think "The sooner people figure out that this is a cult, the better." is not melodramatic, then go off.

Otherwise, this is empty.

[Don Nico]

" crackdowns "
That is just your question-begging.
In fact you never approve of any disciplinary measure for wanton disruption on the campus or in the surrounding area. Get real.
These are not crackdowns, there are the protesters getting what they continue to beg for. Why else would they blockade an employee parking lot when its time to leave work?

[Sarcastr0]

you never approve of any disciplinary measure for wanton disruption on the campus or in the surrounding area.

I haven't approved or disapproved of *any specific action a school has taken*.
I don't have the facts necessary to make a judgement call on any of it.

You have complained about this. Now you've forgotten it?

[Don Nico]

You say you don't approve or disapproval but your language says otherwise. Calling any discipline a "crackdown" reveals your implicit bias.
Sorry, your story does not sell.

[Sarcastr0]

So you say. I've said quite a few that sometimes force is needed, on a case by case basis. But please, do read between the lines to tell me what I truly think.

[Crackdown is used as a characterize what some folks around here seem to want - use of force as punishment.]

[Commenter_XY]

After reading the response, your story still does not sell.

[Randal]

Yeah we get it. Anyone who doesn’t agree with you must drink baby blood in Maryland pizza parlors. It's the only explanation.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"I’m not talking about it."

It sure seemed like you were talking about it with your reference to 'rhetoric'.

"You’re a notable offender on the ‘call in the cops and bring on the force’ one solution train."

And you're a notable offender on the "well, it may be one solution, or not, it depends, but I really don't know on what" train. Comments like that don't really say anything.

But these types of problems aren't that complicated.

"You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" is a great opportunity for negotiation, it creates the potential for a win-win scenario. You certainly don't want to use force to get the other guy to scratch your back.

But "You scratch my back, I'll kick you in the balls (or continue to kick you in the balls) is likely to result in a win-lose situation on those terms, and if you accept, the other party is likely to want his back scratched again. So the correct response is 'If you kick me in the balls I'll kick you right back.'

[Sarcastr0]

I'm talking about your comment. You're stuck on some conversation I've not been having with you.

[TwelveInchPianist]

You: "I’m not talking about it.
I don’t know the facts here, so I’m not really going to go in on good or bad with these schools’ policies. If you check, you’d see I’ve made a practice of that on these issues."

Also You: "It’s not a cult..."

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, even if you form them without knowing the facts, but from the facts I've seen, it certainly seems cult-like to me.

[Sarcastr0]

I'm fine with saying these student protests are not cults. I'm also fine with saying they're not undersea mining operations.

I'm not willing to go into the merits of the President’s apology, or subsequent actions taken against the President.

This is not some difficult distinction to see. You're sealioning again.

[TwelveInchPianist]

You're gaslighting again.

I didn't say the student protests were cults, I said the social justice philosophy that's infected the schools is a cult, as evidenced by the President's knee-jerk, ritualistic apology.

[Stella Link the dog]

"I didn’t say the student protests were cults, I said the social justice philosophy that’s infected the schools is a cult"

Is Bob doing your writing now?

[Sarcastr0]

"The sooner people figure out that this is a cult, the better."

That was your full comment, no further context.

This is getting sad.

[Nige]

Trump voter sees cult mote in other person's eye.

[TwelveInchPianist]

I'm not a Trump voter.

[Nige]

Part-time volunteer at the cult, just comes round to set up the chairs.

[Sarcastr0]

Cult of personality, I’m sure.

Not an actual cult. (And no, evangelicals

[Nige]

Well, Qanon came up in another thread to remind us that actually, yes, there's a cultish quality to it all. Now of course some people think concern for groups being marginalised is as cultish as believing world leaders are all themselves in a satanic pedophile cult that sacrifices children and drink their adrenochrome.

And of course there's always people who will decry cultish woke cancel culture while ignoring what happens when anyone crosses, offends, 'betrays' or merely comes to the attention of Trump supporters.

[Sarcastr0]

QAnon gets close, it absolutely incorporates some supernatural elements that make it not just a simple delusion or philosophy or ideology.

Some of the Christian evangelical groups that are all in on Trump as a God-touched figure basically get there. (Though size matters there; at some point it's too big to be a cult).

[Kazinski]

Its not exactly a cult, but it does demonstrate the the rather insular radical desperation of the campus and community.

I say radical desperation because CSU is a commuter school in a very comfortable wine country county populated overwhelmingly by white people. The black population is < 2%, the median home price is right around 1m, and the average distance to a vinyard is a stones throw.

I am very familiar with the area, having grown up about 30 minutes away, and my brother and mother live less than 10 miles from campus.

[Nige]

How dare he not set the cops on those kids.

[TwelveInchPianist]

I have to say that I disagree with the leftist position that if we abolish the police and just give the criminals what they want, they'll stop committing crimes.

[Sarcastr0]

Why bother if you're just going to angry strawman?

[TwelveInchPianist]

Why bother if you’re just going to make comments like that?

Defund/abolish the police has been a slogan for the left for a while now, and giving the criminals what they want has been a solution to some crimes that many, including yourself, have proposed.

[Sarcastr0]

Nige didn't say anything like that in the comment you are replying to.

That's a strawman.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Nige's comment was a strawman, but one you seem to like.

But the fact that I was claiming he held positions not reflected in his comment doesn't make my comment a strawman.

Perhaps you're objecting to the fact that my comment contained some hyperbole?

[Sarcastr0]

Who was he strawmanning?
Seemed like he was predicting what commenters would say. Always a fraught proposition, but he was bang on in this case.

But even if he were, you replying to a strawman with a strawman is still bad.

I was claiming he held positions not reflected in his comment doesn’t make my comment a strawman.
The way to do that is to say he probably holds this or that position, it is not to just argue against the position without bothering to make the claim.

Everyone can see you did a strawman, don't pretend you didn't, it's pathetic.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"Who was he strawmanning?"

Mildred García, of course.

"Seemed like he was predicting what commenters would say. Always a fraught proposition, but he was bang on in this case."

Oh? Who said that?

"Everyone can see you did a strawman, don’t pretend you didn’t, it’s pathetic."

You're pathetic.

[Sarcastr0]

'How dare he' is not how a strawman is constructed, chief.

Folks who are pissed in this thread that the cops didn't come out:
Brett
jimc5499

[Nige]

I absolutely think police budgets need slashing, though. They're not supposed to be paramilitary organisations who can pick and choose whether to be answerable to civic authorities. Fund some libraries, social services, mental health services with the difference, it'd solve way more problems without shooting or incarcerating people.

[Nige]

I'd prefer it if the cops stopped committing crimes and actually went after criminals. Strapping on the body armour and the shields and the clubs and going over the top at a bunch of college kids like they're in Henry V is just authoritarian bullshit.

[TwelveInchPianist]

You don't think students kidnapping janitors is authoritarian bullshit?
Taking over common spaces and not letting other students use them? Especially, as seen in some videos, the students are strapping on body armor and shields.

At this point, you're just arguing that private property and restrictions on the use of common spaces is authoritarian bullshit.

But in any event, there are plenty of ways to get these students to leave. Expulsions, fines, etc. But many of those lack credibility because the administrations make empty threats and rescind the expulsions when they occur.

[Nige]

None of that is authoritarian bullshit at all. A janitor got inconvenienced, a building was occupied, students maybey heard about the thee-hour attack by counter-protesters and prepared for more of it or just know what cops are like. Recasting the people with the least power taking part in acts of civil disobedience as authoritarian IS authoritarian bullshit. Down that way lies the death of all protest. You just need some ‘rules’ so that if any get infringed you can lower the hammer ‘cos then they’re terrorists!

[shawn_dude]

Student events, or just groups of students sitting in the sun on a lawn, "tak[e] over common spaces" and by using them themselves they necessarily prevent other students from using the same space. Common spaces are first come, first served.

Sonoma State isn't private property, and for private universities, the students paid for the right to use those common spaces with their tuition and fees.

Calling the cops to come beat students with clubs is arguably worse than the Sonoma State president's idiotic promise to the protesters. Sac State and SF State both handled this much better and both have cleared their tent encampments peacefully without promising to divest from Israel or limit academic collaboration with Israeli universities.

[Stephen Lathrop]

TIP, you go off the rails whenever you advocate punishing everyone because someone committed misconduct. You apparently think it is too much trouble to hold individuals responsible for individual misconduct. That is not an American way to think about justice and punishment. You want punishments generalized, apparently on the basis to inflict them en masse against folks you disagree with politically.

[Scooter]

Obviously, you'd prefer the Jewish students wear yellow stars in order to ease identification.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

For their own protection.

[Nige]

Obviously if you write the words and say they're something I'd say it still doesn't become something I'd say, want or even think but it is something you have said and thought.

[Lee Moore]

Nige : How dare he not set the cops on those kids.

I agree for once. Setting cops on revolting college kids is pointless and inefficient. What are dogs for, after all ?

[shawn_dude]

Dogs are also inefficient. Maybe just go all "Kent State" on them? I mean, why pull punches when bullets are more efficient?

Nothing says "democracy backed by freedoms and civil rights" like raining down violence on a group of citizens expressing opinions you dislike.

[Ed Grinberg]

.

Nothing says “democracy backed by freedoms and civil rights” like raining down violence on a group of citizens EXPRESSING OPINIONS YOU DISLIKE.

That (the all-caps portion) is a bald-faced lie. That’s not what this is about. If these “group[s] of citizens” had limited themselves to expressing their opinions, however odious (and they most definitely are odious!), without breaking existing university rules (and, in some cases, criminal laws), no one would suggest “raining down violence on [them].” But they certainly have not done so.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2024/04/campus-agitators-and-their-supporters-distort-the-nature-of-free-speech/

[Nige]

Trump voters crying tears of pain at the breaking of some rules.

[Nige]

They were good enough for those civil rights marches, I suppose.

[Brett Bellmore]

Fired for agreeing to pay the Danegeld. I guess not everybody in the administration has neglected their Kipling.

"Insubordination" suggests that it goes beyond simply acting without going through the proper channels, but instead that he'd actually been directed NOT to do this.

[damikesc]

I will ask, again --- for the billions shoveled into it, what good is higher education providing?

Burn the whole system down.

[Nige]

Goddamn it's full of kids who politically disagree with you! Destroy it!

[TwelveInchPianist]

Don't destroy it, just stop paying for it.

[Nige]

Third level education is more than just an societal ornament it’s a fundamental driver of culture and commerce; you want to fuck it up because some kids don’t like your wart.

That's a typo but Imma leave it in.

[jimc5499]

The kids are NOT the problem. It isn't just higher education. It is starting in daycare.

[Krayt]

Everyone knows to control schools to teach kids what's important.

Churches did this for thousands of years.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

It was the primary reason for public schools, to indoctrinate immigrant children, especially the Irish and Italian papists, but the eastern European ones too.

[Nige]

They learn a bunch of stuff but end up not thinking like you - how horrible.

[Brett Bellmore]

Oh, come on. I will gladly agree that a lot of the money shoveled into higher ed is a dead waste, or even worse than that, but we actually NEED higher ed for various technical fields.

It's like saying, "The farm field has a lot of weeds in it, we should salt the earth and go back to being hunter gatherers. No, academia needs some weeding.

Probably the best way to accomplish that would be to put educational institutions on the hook for student loans, make them have to pay them off themselves if the degree doesn't result in proportionate income.

[Michael P]

Universities are helpful for science fields, but I doubt they're the most effective mechanism we currently have for training engineers, software developers, or other technical fields. I went to a reputable university and got degrees in electrical & computer engineering and computer science, but most of what I used for the first decade of my career could have fit in about 18 months of technical school. Almost all of what people use in technical jobs is either very easy to learn or too niche to be part of a core curriculum -- and I think learning how to learn, which lets people pick up skills and knowledge on the job, is mostly acquired before college.

[Brett Bellmore]

I agree on that, very little of what I learned in college actually ended up being used in my job. Actually, I studied for one engineering field, had to drop out in my senior year to nurse my mom after a bad auto accident, and ended up becoming an engineer in an unrelated field by apprenticeship.

But while general engineering practice doesn't actually require much college learning, (One of my instructors said, "We don't expect you to remember this after you leave here, we just expect you to remember where to look it up, and to be able to pick it back up again rapidly if you end up needing it.") there are certainly high end engineering practices where it's all necessary. So it does need to be taught.

But, yeah, most engineering would make more sense as a vo-tech 2 year major.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Yeah, but the future of that type of education is largely remote, online, and hybrid, from a competitive network of providers, and the schools don't seem to be moving that way very fast.

They've got big, entrenched staffs and are resistant to change.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

The proof to me is how coincidentally all these technical fields require the same four years. None 2 or 3 or 5, all 4. How odd.

[Brett Bellmore]

Probably want to drop that particular argument, since a lot of technical degrees in fact only take two years.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

I have worked places where perfectly good employees doing better work than the 4-year degree hires were fired for only having a 2 year degree.

What I refer to is four year colleges, where it is such an astounding coincidence that every field needs exactly four years to get that first degree.

[Brett Bellmore]

Yeah, degrees at "4 year colleges" typically take 4 years, news at 11.

Sorry to hear about the stupid management you've suffered under. I've had the good fortune to only work for employers who cared if you could do the job.

[Kazinski]

Yeah, well they make sure to pad all that space with general ed requirements.

If you look at the classes someone actually takes in their field of study, its ~2 years.

[Brett Bellmore]

Yes and no. At least at MTU in the 70's, you went through a lot of math, chemistry, and physics, biology, too, depending on major, before you got any field specific classes. That was 1.5 - 2 years by itself.

[Don Nico]

Alphabet,
Actually architecture has required at least years in many schools for decades.

[Don Nico]

"most engineering would make more sense as a vo-tech 2 year major"
I seriously doubt "most." Certainly some lower-level design or maintenance engineering could get by. But sophisticated design of systems at the leading edge of technology requires more, often an M.S.

[Stella Link the dog]

Even if you cut out all the stuff which might be considered superfluous such as language skills and history, it would take a good two years to get through the basic math and physics.

[Brett Bellmore]

Most engineering IS "lower level design or maintenance engineering". You really think most engineering is "sophisticated design of systems at the leading edge of technology"?

I design tooling to produce stampings to sometimes sub-micron precision, in quantities measured in the millions. I've also done elastomer extrusion tooling design for things like car window seals. (Which is something of a black art.) Occasional special purpose machines.

I will say that I could not have learned what I do in 2 years of college, or even 4 years, but I've never had to use the calculus I learned in college.

[Michael P]

In 25 years of software and now system engineering, I have applied calculus I think just once, when Wolfram Alpha couldn't compute a particularly complex integral related to some performance characteristic in a digital radio. But I think that only needed Calc in 3D, which I took during high school. The courses I took for my math minor in college were more about probability and linear algebra, but even though those topics have factor heavily in my career, I had to pick up most of what I have needed on my own.

I've designed network coprocessor architectures, automatic target detection and recognition software, high-throughput digital radio systems, and now a GPS augmentation system. I've implemented all of those except the first (the company was part off the dot-com bubble) and the last (our critical design review is in a month, so we're still building it), plus some smaller things.

Quite a few of my CS and ECE classmates ended up doing much more traditional, boring software work that mostly involves figuring out how to crank out code that works 99% of the time with the least development effort. The distinguishing job performance is optimizing for their own productivity, not technical quality, and universities are not good at teaching that either.

[Michael P]

I disagree strenuously. Design of complex things requires experience and judgement between alternatives in a novel trade space, and universities do terrible jobs at teaching those, especially compared to apprenticeships or mentoring. A university doesn't even do a good job of teaching how to characterize that trade space.

My boss has hired a ton of new grads to write software in my project. They're not entirely useless, but we would have gotten a lot more useful work if we hired half as many people with five or six years of experience instead. He also hired all those software people but too few system engineers to coordinate across the 150 or so technical workers on the project.

[David Nieporent]

But, yeah, most engineering would make more sense as a vo-tech 2 year major.

College is not trade school. Trade schools are valuable and have their place, but are not substitutes for college.

And that assumes that someone knows at 18 that they want to be an engineer.

[Sarcastr0]

Education being purely based on utility is not for everyone. It's pretty inhuman, in fact. Some of you are into that, and that's actually fine. But don't make it the option for everyone.

I think learning how to learn, which lets people pick up skills and knowledge on the job, is mostly acquired before college.
Social science is bunk, except for the social science you pull from your ass.

[Brett Bellmore]

Nowhere did I say that education should be based purely on utility. I've paid good money for my son's piano lessons, I seriously doubt it's going to lead to a career.

But if you're going to LOAN somebody money to get an education, (OR ANYTHING ELSE!) you need to establish one of two things:

Either you need to establish that the education will give them the ability to pay off the loan,

Or you need to establish that they ALREADY have the ability to pay off the loan.

It's utterly irresponsible to loan people money you know they won't be able to pay back.

Well, OK, I have done that a couple times, but it was just face saving charity, I went into it knowing I wouldn't demand repayment. But our government isn't made of money, and charity should always be need based. Charity so that people can buy expensive luxuries is stupid.

[Stella Link the dog]

"Well, OK, I have done that a couple times, but it was just face saving charity, I went into it knowing I wouldn’t demand repayment."

Sounds like, if you were weathy enough, you could be a friend of Clarence,

"Two leading Democratic senators are pressing Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas to reveal whether he repaid a wealthy friend any of the principal for a $267,230 loan he used to buy a luxury motorhome."

[Brett Bellmore]

"Sounds like, if you were weathy enough, you could be a friend of Clarence,"

Sounds like if a widow with a newborn baby needs a "loan" to get through a tough patch, I'm their friend.

[Commenter_XY]

That was a mitzvah.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"Education being purely based on utility is not for everyone. It’s pretty inhuman, in fact. Some of you are into that"

Why bother if you’re just going to angry strawman?

People are talking about where to direct public funds.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

You're good at making shit up. Not so good at thinking. Why do all degrees take four years?

There's a clue somewhere lurking around. See if you can find it.

[Brett Bellmore]

Ah, all degrees do not take four years.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

You've taken ignorance to an astonishing new level of stupidity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associate_degree

[Don Nico]

"most of what I used for the first decade of my career could have fit in about 18 months of technical school."
That is mighty easy to say in retrospect. However, Had you had only 18 months of schooling, you'd have ended up a piss-poor engineer.

[Michael P]

I doubt it. I know what I was capable of coming out of high school because I spent my free time in high school programming, and the things I learned during college that helped me most afterwards were from continuing that, including by reading more established developers on things like the Linux kernel mailing list.

Sure, I picked up a few things in college proper that I've used since then, but a lot more of what I've needed to know professionally are things where I bought a textbook on the subject and learned it independently, or where a colleague reviewed my work or explained something new to me.

[jimc5499]

Brett,
We hire Engineering students as interns. They start in the Summer, full time and if they meet the requirements they go part time when they have classes. It used to be their core classes that gave them trouble. Some of us would help, because we'd been there. Now their biggest problem is the Liberal electives that are now mandatory. They are more concerned about being able to parrot back or phrase their papers so that they align with the views of the Instructor or Professor teaching the class. They don't want to make waves that might trash their GPA or get them thrown out.

[Drewski]

It's pretty hilarious that you think liberal arts classes are related to liberal politics. That's the kind of thinking that you should talk to a therapist about, not a blog comment section.

[Brett Bellmore]

Nobody's saying that they're linguistically related. It's just that almost everybody in liberal arts departments happen to be left-wing, often extremely so.

[damikesc]

I'd prefer a robust apprenticeship system.

4 year colleges have proven they are overall useless. They cost ungodly sums of money for precious little benefit.

Tear the whole thing down and maybe rebuild it.

But letting highly technical field training be handled by the people involved in it would be preferrable to what we have now.

[Sarcastr0]

I do think we should beef up apprenticeship options. And Associates degrees, mechanical schools, liberal arts degrees, specialty schools.

You want to narrow the choices people have because of what you personally feel.
What a champion of freedom you are.

[Don Nico]

"a robust apprenticeship system."
The problem is that most journeyman level technologists are poor mentors. They would rather do the job themselves and get it done faster.
A robust apprenticeship system requires expert, patient mentors. Most companies won't pay for that. They want experts doing the jobs for the most important clients.

[Sarcastr0]

If companies don't pay for that, then subsidize it. And offer trainings on how to be a good mentor as part of the package.

It's got the same value as a degree in the end, and it's outreach to nontraditional learners (though might want a selection process to make sure they're self-starters).

[Don Nico]

The issue is not money, S_0. It is diminishing (in the short run) the productivity of their best people. Besides, many of those people would rather not be mentors.

In sub-specialities where few engineering departments offer any relevant courses, companies do resort to on the job training for the first several months or more. The companies don't need a subsidy, because there is no other choice and because their customers pay for it in the form of higher prices.
That model is not not economically practical for bread and butter engineering with one exception: the new engineers are trained in military service.

[Sarcastr0]

I don't see why it would be the best people. We have plenty of past precedent for apprenticeships, and it's not only the elites of a profession who offer them.
We see rather the opposite the the non-apprenticeship arena with research professors versus teaching professors. The researchers, if they are good enough, get to focus on what they like the best.

I'm aware of apprenticeship as part of the workforce development pipeline. They seem pretty well received with the usual few bumps in the road.
But I think there would be a lot of utility in a more generalized ecosystem-wide push than company-by-company.

Engineering has some basic research in it, but I will admit most of it is out of my are of expertise. You may have more hands-on experience.

[Don Nico]

'I don’t see why it would be the best people. "
The best people usually provide the most inspiration and the best professional role models."
In all the internship programs that I have been involved with the most difficult aspect is getting top people to act as mentors even for only a few months. The top people are usually working on the hardest, most interesting tasks and therefore are in the position to provide the most insightful instruction for protegees.
If one is training operations and maintenance engineers the demands on mentors are not as tough as those for research or major project engineers.
But in most cases the biggest resource hurdle is people rather than money.

[Sarcastr0]

You lay out a cost to including the best folks in these programs.
There are benefits, but I suspect the right answer is to have mentors up and down the talent continuum.

Interns...in our office environment, I have found you need a dedicated intern wrangler to get the cultural interface between newbies and advanced professionals right.

Dunno if that would hold for a longer-term hands-on engineering thing though.

Research engineers, the model should be more like the PI, eh? I mean grad students are basically apprentices.

[Commenter_XY]

There are benefits, but I suspect the right answer is to have mentors up and down the talent continuum.

Uh, no. A bad mentor is career killing. You don't want anyone on the 'down' side of the talent continuum to be mentoring your best long term prospects (the ones who get mentors, in the first place). Second and third order thinking is not your forte, is it? It shows.

[Sarcastr0]

Aren't you a STEMLord? Only STEM majors are worthwhile in society?

Or has that changed lately?

[Brett Bellmore]

I am of the opinion that educational loans should only be available for majors that produce income proportionate to the cost of the education. Education that doesn't lead to income is a luxury good, and while luxury goods are worthwhile for people who can afford them, there's no valid reason for government to be subsidizing luxury goods. But, sure, if you can get a loan to buy a pontoon boat after establishing assets and/or income that proves you can pay it off, why not a loan to buy a degree in ethnic studies?

But I wouldn't have the government deciding which majors were productive, and which weren't, which is why I suggest just putting educational institutions on the hook for loans that don't actually result in incomes high enough to pay for them. That gives the institutions the proper incentive to scrutinize degree programs and applicants themselves.

[Sarcastr0]

Education that doesn’t lead to income is a luxury good

You don't know what job you will get until after.

But your 'society should subsidize only what it deems useful' is collectivist as hell. Glad I don't live in such a grey utilitarian world.

[Brett Bellmore]

"Society should subsidize" is collectivist as hell. "Only what is useful" tries to confine the collectivism to survivable scale.

And I said that I DIDN'T want the government deciding which majors were useful, that we should just give the institutions themselves incentive to decide that by putting them on the hook for loaning people money to pursue degrees that don't pay off.

[Sarcastr0]

YOU define what's a luxury good, and then say, "there’s no valid reason for government to be subsidizing luxury goods."

Then: "I suggest just putting educational institutions on the hook for loans that don’t actually result in incomes high enough to pay for them."

You're picking the metric for success here. And you're punishing schools HARD if they don't follow it.

Compare to leaving it to the student what education they want to choose.

This is collectivist, if not authoritarian.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"Compare to leaving it to the student what education they want to choose."

Huh? If you want to leave it to the student what education they want to choose, you stop subsidizing schools.

[Sarcastr0]

No, that's if you don't want to incentivize that people get a higher education at all.

Oh, hey....

[TwelveInchPianist]

"No, that’s if you don’t want to incentivize that people get a higher education at all."

But you define what counts as a higher education, right? Or are you talking about subsidizing learning through practical experience, unaccredited schools, religious education, independent study, or anything else that might be educational?

[Sarcastr0]

you define what counts as a higher education, right?

Only to the bare minimum possible. Accreditation to make sure there aren't any scams out there, but I have no issue with subsidies including religious schools - Catholic schools have a long tradition of serving secular students quite well in some areas, we should respect that.

At some point it becomes anarchy, as you know but love you some bad faith obliteration of perspective.

There's plenty of room in the middle full of maximizing choices.

And you anti-education or STEMLords are not on the choice maximizing side.

[Nige]

They get to choose NO education!

[Brett Bellmore]

"YOU define what’s a luxury good, and then say, “there’s no valid reason for government to be subsidizing luxury goods.”"

There are standard definitions of "luxury goods" in economics, and college majors that don't pay off fit those definitions.

"You’re picking the metric for success here. And you’re punishing schools HARD if they don’t follow it."

I'm not exempting the schools from the normal incentives people making loans ordinarily face. Try going to a bank to get the a loan for anything EXCEPT an education, where you can neither demonstrate that the loan will increase your earnings potential, nor that you already have the ability to repay it. They'll politely show you the door.

"Compare to leaving it to the student what education they want to choose."

I am absolutely leaving it to the student what education they want to choose, and they can damn well pay for it themselves if it's not one that will enable them to repay the cost.

[Sarcastr0]

Education is not actually a luxury good as economically defined, especially since predicting what your professional prospects are a priori is not a certain proposition.

But for all your subsidize this and not that, you're narrowing choices from where they are today to conform with what you think is best for society.

That's authoritarian and collectivist.

[Lee Moore]

especially since predicting what your professional prospects are a priori is not a certain proposition

What is, apart from death and taxes ? And of course the return of the Gods of the Copybook Headings (plus terror and slaughter.)

Markets are good at dealing with uncertainty. Loans which carry a higher risk of default attract a higher rate of interest. After a while the interest demanded becomes larger than the borrower wants to pay, so he gives up the idea of borrowing and does something else.

But for all your subsidize this and not that

You're misunderstanding him. He said there's no case for the government subsidising students to study things for which the expected return on the education is lower than the loan service. He didn't say the government should subsidise things where the expected return is higher - he said the market would happily lend to those. Ergo no subsidy required.

you’re narrowing choices from where they are today to conform with what you think is best for society

Obviously. The fact that the law currently requires you, and lower class people like you, to put in seven days of labor a year - free - to bring in my harvest, suits me fine. Should the government repeal the law that places that obligation on you, in the belief that removing my benefit and your obligation is net-net a benefit to society, then that repeal is undoubtedly narrowing my choices. I might have to pay someone for those seven days a year.

If you load obligations of $100 on Peter, to award Paul privileges of $100 (OK $75 as you'll be taking a cut for "admin") then nixing the obligations and privileges for the future is going to narrow Paul's choices. Compared to "where they are today."

But why anyone would think this "authoritarian and collectivist" is hard to imagine. The status quo is authoritarian and collectivist. It treats Peter's earnings as the property of the collective, and it claims the authority to allocate it as it pleases. Getting rid of that status quo is the opposite. It leaves Peter (and Paul) free to spend their own money, and do their own thing, as they choose.

[Brett Bellmore]

"Education is not actually a luxury good as economically defined,"

We're not talking about education in general, only specific degree programs.

[Sarcastr0]

Markets are good at dealing with uncertainty ehhhh I'm not sure about that. In the last decade we've seen studies that it's still humans making the decisions after all, and we are not actually very good at that.

My point is this: Brett's reform gives students fewer choices. Fewer choices in the direction Brett believes is better. I don't care if he uses the market or the Red Guard as his instrument, that's Brett wanting his choices picked and projected for everyone else.

School is not a private contract. It does not exist in a capitalist system. That's by long design. If you want to argue that it'd benefit from the free market, you need a better argument than 'it'll favor the majors I like'.

[Brett Bellmore]

"My point is this: Brett’s reform gives students fewer choices."

No, my reform selectively refrains from giving students more choices than they would naturally have.

We are mistakenly making it easier for students to go into debt getting degrees which will not help them get back out of debt. I'm not saying those degrees are necessarily bad things to have, but going into debt to get them is a trap we should not be baiting with government money.

[Sarcastr0]

Ahh yes, the *natural choices*.

Unnatural choices are right now. You know, for freedom.

This is what happens if the market becomes an intrinsic good - you restrict opportunities and call it freedom.

On object lesson in why education should not be privatized.

[Lee Moore]

moi : Markets are good at dealing with uncertainty

Sarcastro : ehhhh I’m not sure about that. In the last decade we’ve seen studies that it’s still humans making the decisions after all, and we are not actually very good at that.

That's another of those Sarcastro sentences that boggles the mind. What could it possibly mean ? Humans decide to make typhoons ? Probably not. Humans by the million decide they'd like to go to a movie about Barbie ? And the Barbie producers make lots of money ? Yes, but what on earth has that got to do with refuting the idea that markets are good at dealing with uncertainty ? The movie business is notoriously risky, huge sums are wagered and lost.

The market doesn't make the risk go away, it allows people to make movies when we know most of them are going to be bombs. We humans just don't know which ones. Neither does the market. But the market in all its ignorance shuffles the risks and exposures to the people who are willing to accept them, at a price.

My point is this: Brett’s reform gives students fewer choices. Fewer choices in the direction Brett believes is better. I don’t care if he uses the market or the Red Guard as his instrument, that’s Brett wanting his choices picked and projected for everyone else.

As Brett explained the students getting fewer choices are only having their choices reduced to the choices they would have had if the government did not confiscate other people's choices to benefit the students. That's not "Brett's choices picked and projected for everyone "- it's abstaining from imposing Brett's (or your or my) choices on everyone else. Or anyon else.

The outcome of Brett's laissez faire proposal might be that almost everyone currently studying STEM gives it up and moves to theatre studies. Brett doesn't expect that (and neither do I and neither do you) but if it did .... laissez faire.

School is not a private contract. It does not exist in a capitalist system. That’s by long design. If you want to argue that it’d benefit from the free market, you need a better argument than ‘it’ll favor the majors I like’.

Er, you have heard of private schools, right ? And no the argument has nothing to do with favoring the majors I like or Brett likes, because it is about removing Brett's preferences from any educational choices that Brett is not paying for himself.

The actual argument is neatly set out in The Wealth of Nations. Stop interfering and people will naturally adjust their behavior so as to do things that - on average - demonstrably benefit their fellow man - demonstrably in that their fellow man is actually willing to pay them to do it.

If you are particularly eager that an 18 year old of your acquaintance should spend the next four years expensively studying Classical Greek and Roman poetry, feel free to pay for it yourself. I am sure that Brett, like me, will have no complaints.

[Brett Bellmore]

"You know, for freedom."

You seem to be confusing freedom and subsidy. Freedom requires that you be allowed to make your own choices, it does NOT require that anybody else assist you in them.

If somebody wants a degree in basket weaving, (Probably not a good example if you've seen what a swamp grass basket goes for in Charleston.) or queer studies, fine, have at it. But that freedom doesn't imply anybody going out of their way to make it easier.

Like I said, going into debt to obtain a degree that won't help you earn money to pay off the loan is a trap, the government should not be baiting that trap.

[Lee Moore]

Unnatural choices are right now. You know, for freedom.

And again. Absolutely boggleworthy. What could it possibly mean ?

This is what happens if the market becomes an intrinsic good – you restrict opportunities and call it freedom.

I believe the King of Thailand shares your view of what "freedom" means. As an absolute monarch he's entitled to take anybody's property as he pleases. And unlike his Dad, who was a wiser man, the current King does not hesitate to exercise that right whenever the mood takes him.

The both of you obviously consider that depriving him of this right would be one of those collectivist and authoritarian assaults on freedom that are so much to be deplored.

[SimonP]

There are standard definitions of “luxury goods” in economics,...

Ironically, these "standard definitions" are unlikely to be familiar to very many people educated in a world where higher education is treated as a "luxury good," as a matter of policy.

You might step back from the specific argument you're making here, Brett, and ask how you envision this kind of debate over higher-education policy working in a society where the only people with working familiarity of economic concepts - or capable of becoming familiar with such concepts on their own - are the people who happened to get an economically-productive degree. Do you expect public discourse on such questions - and so, elections and political candidates that will impact policy - to improve, when we're narrowing the base of people who will be capable of engaging in that discourse constructively?

[TwelveInchPianist]

"But your ‘society should subsidize only what it deems useful’"

As opposed to your "society should subsidize what it deems disruptive' approach to civil disobedience?

[Sarcastr0]

What it deems useful *to itself*.

Society serves the individual. Having it the other way around is collectivist.

[TwelveInchPianist]

The if you don't want to be collectivist, stop subsidizing stuff and let the individuals decide what to do with their resources.

[Nige]

Let's get it back to being only for the priveleged.

[TwelveInchPianist]

If you want to object to collectivism, you're conceding that.

[Nige]

Collectivism only for the rich.

[TwelveInchPianist]

*Then

[Don Nico]

"Having it the other way around is collectivist."
Finally you figured out JFK's inaugural address

[Sarcastr0]

So you agree with me, but can't quit the insults.

I'll take it!

[Don Nico]

Why is that an insult? It is still so widely quoted by Americans.

[Sarcastr0]

Finally you figured out is not hard to read, Don.

[Kazinski]

That's not exactly true, there is very good data for what the average graduates of a major make.

They shouldn't let art history majors rack up 200k in student debt.

[Nige]

'Education that doesn’t lead to income is a luxury good,'

Stupidest, most short-term and narrow bit of thinking I've seen in a while.

[damikesc]

Given Biden's bastardization of the student loan program, might be time for Trump should he win, to "change the rules" and require approval of degree programs to even qualify for the monies.

[Sarcastr0]

How many student loans as a percentage do you think Biden has forgiven.

This kind of pride-cum-ignorance is what happens when you embrace STEMLordism.

[damikesc]

One is one too many. A percentage above 0 is too high.

[Sarcastr0]

"Biden’s bastardization of the student loan program"..."One is one too many."

You made a sweeping claim, and now you had to back down to a much smaller scale snit.

[Kazinski]

What percentage did he try to forgive before the Supreme Court slapped.him down?

Then he vowed to go around the court and do it more piecemeal.

[Sarcastr0]

No new goalposts.

[Nige]

Suspending the guy is more danegeld to hostile outsiders than engaging with people who are actually part of your institution and paying for it.

[TwelveInchPianist]

1. Wut?

2. Who are the "hostile outsiders you're referring to, given that this is a state school?

[Nige]

Right wing hysterics screaming for student scalps.

[TwelveInchPianist]

And how is suspending the President for insubordination paying "danegeld" to "Right wing hysterics screaming for student scalps?"

[Nige]

I can lead you to water, I can't make you think.

[Scooter]

Given the Biden administration's push to forgive all student loan debt, the taxpayers are paying for the institution and have a vested interest in the cry-bullies being told to STFU.

[Nige]

Biden is currently the chief representative of all taxpayers, since he won the election.

[damikesc]

Yeah, he certainly seems to be anybody's favorite.

81M votes. Sure. Still sounds totes plausible.

Obama was CLEARLY the anchor on his and Biden's ticket.

[Sarcastr0]

Election denial guy wants tell us the wisest course for the US education system.

[Don Nico]

"Election denial guy "
Nice ad hominem.

[Sarcastr0]

Don't worry, I engage with his STEMLordium elsewhere.

But he's really a great poster child for the problem with pushing everyone through STEM degrees without a more well rounded curriculum.

[Don Nico]

"problem of... STEM degrees without a more well rounded curriculum"

Here I agree with you. In particular without some humanistic background, the ideas that underlie engineering ethics falls flat.

[damikesc]

Hey, 81M votes sounds completely plausible.

Most popular candidate in American history.

Yup.

[Sarcastr0]

Your argument has fallen off, all I see is a fallacy - appeal to incredulity.

Lazy.

[David Nieporent]

Why isn't that far more plausible than Donald Trump increasing his vote total from 62 to 74 million votes despite presiding over an utter debacle of a presidency?

[damikesc]

Yes. That whole "no new wars" thing was a debacle of the highest order. Not shutting down the country for months --- SHEER debacle right there.

His "debacle" was blue states shutting themselves down indefinitely. He had fewer deaths with COVID under him than Biden had in his first year in office.

[Sarcastr0]

'I can't believe Nixon won. I don't know anyone who voted for him."

[Nige]

Loooooser

[Drewski]

I've been informed recently by some guy named Nige that "outside agitator" narratives are necessarily racist.

[Nige]

Not me. *I* said they were highly selective, considering the money and organisation behind the often violent counter-protesters and the pressure brought to bear pushing for crackdowns by people nakedly hostile to third level education.

[Scooter]

Why is is so hard for the Administration to tell these Adult Cry-Bullies "NO" ?

[jimc5499]

Because they actually support them. They put on a front to make people think otherwise, but, actually support them behind the scenes.

[Sarcastr0]

Crypto leftists everywhere!

[Sarcastr0]

Plenty do and have, of course. To greater or lesser effectiveness.

You ignore those because confirmation bias is a helluva drug.

[TwelveInchPianist]

How is he ignoring anybody. It certainly seems hard for administrators to tell these people "no". This administrator capitulated to the students, and then admitted it was wrong to do so.

[Sarcastr0]

You're soaking in confirmation bias. You can't generalize based on this school, don't be an idiot.

[shawn_dude]

Can you back this up? Calling the cops on the encampments resulted in most of the violence reported during these protests. How is that not a firm “no?” Other universities let the students have their say and listened and then gave them a diplomatic “no.” Those campuses didn’t make the national news. (go figure!) But this one president shot himself in the foot. Don’t see how that one anecdote is sufficient to draw generalizations when there are far more opposing examples.

[David Nieporent]

It certainly seems hard for administrators to tell these people “no”.

It does? Then why are all the encampments still out there with the loons whining that their demands aren't being met?

[Michael P]

Because the universities are not telling them “no, you cannot set up a camp in the middle of university property, now get back to your exams or we will flunk you”.

[ChrisC]

"UC president agreed to ban students from receiving abortions and removed all family planning facilities from a campus in an agreement with pro-life protestors who had taken over the central campus with an encampment"

[Sarcastr0]

Counterfactuals always reveal a lot about the writer

Do you think a school's study abroad program is about like a student's independent choice to get an abortion?

[Brett Bellmore]

No, we think giving in to extortionate threats on one topic is like giving into extortionate threats on another topic.

[shawn_dude]

January 6th ring any bells?

[Brett Bellmore]

I don't recall Congress giving into any extortionate threats that day.

[Stephen Lathrop]

A majority on the Supreme Court has been giving in to extortionate threats ever since. Or maybe I need to rethink that. Could be the Court majority leading the threats, at least when MAGA-type congress people aren't doing it.

[Sarcastr0]

Chris C overdetermined his counterfactual then, according to Brett.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

The people who figure supporters of Israel’s right-wing belligerence are going to win this debate are the same losers who figured gay marriage prohibitions, segregated schools, voter suppression, and abusive policing were here to stay.

Aligning with the wrong side of the history and the losing side of the American culture war seems destined to have existential consequences for Israel’s bigoted, superstition-driven, war-crimey right-wing belligerents.

[Don Nico]

"Lee told the campus that he would initiate an academic boycott of Israel, in which links to study abroad programs in the country would be removed from university pamphlets, among other measures"

But at least "some of his best friends are Jews." We've heard that all before.

[Sarcastr0]

This looks dumb as hell, but not seeing where it's antisemetic.

[shawn_dude]

Hamas uses civilians to shield their atrocities and Israel uses the claim of anti-Semitism to shield theirs.

[Don Nico]

“Israel uses the claim of anti-Semitism to shield theirs”
Sounds like a typical anti-Semitic meme.

[Don Nico]

It is worse than dumb as hell. It is hate based.
My suspicion is that one year ago, you would have said that too.
He does not want his students contaminated by rubbing shoulders with those citizens of Israel. Sure, he means regardless of their religion.

[Sarcastr0]

Between the two of us, you're the one that's changed your sensitivities about what's antisemetic.

Like this: He does not want his students contaminated by rubbing shoulders with those citizens of Israel. is fan fiction and telepathy. I've been against that for years.

[Don Nico]

"I’ve been against that for years."
Then you should criticize, Dr. Lee intemperate words. Canceling citations to study abroad in Israel looks anti-Semitic to most people.

[Sarcastr0]

I don't know anything at all about the situation at CSU except what's in the OP.
I'm not going to jump to judgment no matter how much you think that's called for.

OTOH, you have gone well beyond and are now authoring Lee's thoughts, which turn out to be more openly antisemitic, naturally. And then citing 'most people' as your source.

No, I've never been for this kind of flight of fancy.

[Don Nico]

Didn't you read the report of what Mr. Lee said?
""For now, because of this insubordination and the consequences it has brought upon the system, President Lee has been placed on administrative leave," García said….

You comment: "You have gone well beyond and are now authoring Lee’s thoughts."
That S_o is an out and out LIE. Here is the quote from the OP:
"Lee told the campus that he would initiate an academic boycott of Israel, in which links to study abroad programs in the country would be removed from university pamphlets, among other measures…."
That sounds pretty damning.
But I guess you don't like to understand English that offends your way of thinking. You duck far, far too often for me to believe that you are that open minded or withholding of judgement.
You exaggerate and distort to the point of lying. Perhaps you are just that much of a drama queen stomping your feet.

[Commenter_XY]

You drew the moth to the flame, Don Nico. 🙂

They never get it.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Watching clingers continue to rant about antisemitism in the context of young people protesting the slaughter of children by superstition-driven, bigoted right-wing belligerents -- after watching those same clingers refrain from commenting with respect to right-wing bigot Harrison Butker's recent performance at a nonsense-teaching, backwater school -- is illuminating.

This is partisan performance theater rather than any genuine perception of or objection to bigotry, especially at a right-wing blog that habitually publishes racial slurs and features an everyday stream of bigoted content.

Carry on, clingers. So far as your stale, ugly, delusional thinking could carry anyone in modern, improving-against-your-wishes America, that is.

[Commenter_XY]

Oh...Mike Lee *ahem* retired.

The administration wishes him well.