The Volokh Conspiracy
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Columbia, the Boycotting Judges, Neutrals, and Secondary Boycotts
The boycott of Columbia graduates by a group of judges led me to the following thoughts (adapted from a post about the 2022 boycott of Yale Law graduates, which was begun by a judge who is also one of the signatories to the Columbia boycott).
[A.] Just to make clear at the outset, I agree that judges are entitled to choose whom to hire, and that they indeed often prefer some law schools or colleges over others for many reasons that are often only weakly correlated to the school's relative academic quality. (Columbia students may well have been the beneficiary of such preferences far more often than they have been handicapped by such preferences.)
Indeed, I think that judges are even entitled, if they so choose, to hire clerks based in part on the clerks' ideological views, though I do not see the proposal as calling for that. Clerkships are the unusual sort of job for which ideological compatibility as to legal matters (e.g., originalism vs. living constitutionalism, textualism vs. purposivism, the interpretation of various controversial constitutional and statutory provisions, and the like) should generally be seen as a legitimate hiring criterion, cf. Elrod v. Burns and Branti v. Finkel. To my knowledge, many judges, both liberals and conservatives, have considered ideological compatibility in hiring clerks, though many others, both liberals and conservatives, have generally not considered it.
[B.] But here's the heart of my disagreement, not as a matter of legal command but as a matter of what one might loosely call the ethics of American freedom and democracy: My view is that we shouldn't threaten innocent neutrals as a means of influencing the culpable.
Columbia students aren't the ones who set Columbia policy. They may disagree with that policy, or they may not know enough about the subject to have a view. Even if they go to Columbia knowing about Columbia policy (and about the boycott), they shouldn't be held responsible for what Columbia does, and they shouldn't be retaliated against as a means of trying to pressure Columbia to change. Such "secondary boycotts," as labor law refers to them in a somewhat different context, are both unfair to the "neutral[s]" that are being boycotted, and likely to "widen[] … strife." (I'm not claiming here that there's anything illegal about the proposed boycott of Columbia graduates, but only that some of the reasons labor law disapproves of secondary boycotts also carry over to this situation.)
[1.] Let me offer an analogy. As I understand it, BYU apparently forbids same-sex sexual or even romantic behavior by its students. (The precise rule changed recently, but it appears that it still forbids same-sex romantic relationships even if they do not include sexual conduct.) Let's say that some judges or law firms organized a boycott of all BYU graduates (law school or undergrad) on the theory that this may help pressure BYU to change its policy. Assume that such a boycott would be sincerely motivated by opposition to anti-gay policies generally—the boycotters would gladly add other universities if it were publicly known that they have similar policies—not to Mormons as a religious group.
My reaction would be: Keep the BYU students out of it. If you want to refuse to give talks at BYU because of its policies, or to stop giving money to it, fine. But students should be able to choose the educational institution that's best for them (based on a variety of factors, including proximity to family, financial aid, curriculum, educational quality, and more) without becoming targeted for boycotts.
Maybe the students agree with this particular policy of BYU's. Maybe they disagree. Maybe they're unsure. Maybe they just haven't thought about it. But they shouldn't be sucked up into this fight, however important the goal of the boycott might be.
They should be free to sit it out as neutrals. Indeed, retaliating against neutrals (or insisting that no-one is a neutral in such matters) is bad for the very values of tolerance and open-mindedness that the boycotting judges and I and many others care about.
[2.] Or say that some judges or law firms try to influence states' policies on abortion by boycotting all graduates of universities in states that ban or sharply restrict abortion. To be sure, this is less likely to be effective, because the universities would have less effect on the state's policies, but who knows? Maybe the many parents of state university students and graduates would be animated by this to pressure the legislature, or to vote for a pro-abortion-rights ballot measure.
But here too, my reaction would be: Keep the students out of it. Boycott (say) Texas if you wish, but don't boycott individual Texans (or temporary Texans).
[C.] And this is also related to another familiar principle: rejecting guilt by association. We may refuse to hire people do various bad things, but we shouldn't refuse to hire people who are friends with those people, or who belong to the same groups as those people.
Maybe boycotting all known close friends of, say, people who take over campus buildings (or who block abortion clinic entrances or riot at federal courthouses or capital buildings or police stations or what have you) might further discourage such misbehavior: Even people who don't mind the prospect of losing job opportunities, which they might not have wanted in the first place, might be deterred by the possibility of damaging their friends' careers.
But that's just not a boycott we should engage in, I think. We might boycott the trespassers, but we shouldn't boycott the trespassers' friends. And if being friends with a person who behaves badly shouldn't lead to one's being boycotted, attending an educational institution that behaves badly shouldn't, either.
[D.] Now so far this has focused on ethical judgment, but my argument is also pragmatic. My conjecture is that these sorts of secondary boycotts are especially likely to lead to retaliation and even escalation: a mouth full of teeth for a tooth.
What one might call primary or direct boycotts—we won't hire you because of what you said or did—are common enough, and often harmful enough, when the basis for the boycott is improper. But my sense is that, at least so far, the secondary boycotts are relatively rare.
I expect that, when some secondary boycotts are publicly urged by people who are seen as being on one place on the ideological spectrum (regardless of their deeper motivations), lots of others will arise from the opposite place, and will become much harder to fight once the precedent has been set. And if I'm right, then this pragmatic consideration has its own ethical dimension.
As I understand the Columbia boycott proposal, a major justification for it is that this is a dire measure for dire times—not something the judges are at all eager to do, but the only way they can see of solving the problem. Such pragmatic concerns can sometimes justify what would otherwise be behavior that would one prefer to avoid on ethical grounds. (One classic example is retaliatory tariffs, which even some supporters of free trade sometimes back because they are seen as the only effective means of getting the other side's initial tariff repealed.) But if I'm right that such boycotts are likely to lead not to mutual disarmament, but to retaliation and escalation, then their ethical problem is only compounded.
[E.] Now let me reply to a few possible responses.
[1.] Some might also argue that Columbia's policies are so bad that they produce a poor education, or a poor moral education. The judges' letter suggests this, I think, when it says,
Since the October 7 terrorist attacks by Hamas, Columbia University has become ground zero for the explosion of student disruptions, anti-semitism, and hatred for diverse viewpoints on campuses across the Nation. Disruptors have threatened violence, committed assaults, and destroyed property. As judges who hire law clerks every year to serve in the federal judiciary, we have lost confidence in Columbia as an institution of higher education. Columbia has instead become an incubator of bigotry. As a result, Columbia has disqualified itself from educating the future leaders of our country.
But the quality of an education, and the quality of a graduate as a prospective law clerk to a particular judge, turns on many factors. The correlation between Columbia's reactions to "student disruptions, anti-semitism, and hatred for diverse viewpoints" and graduate quality strikes me as likely to be very weak, and certainly not strong enough to justify a categorical "no Columbia" rule, especially given the costs of the rule that I discuss above.
Likewise, the letter argues that, if Columbia doesn't crack down on and identify those students who engage in "unlawfully trespassing on and occupying public spaces," then "employers are forced to assume the risk that anyone they hire from Columbia may be one of these disruptive and hateful students." But of course all employers assume the risk that anyone they hire from anywhere may be "disruptive and hateful." No university can assure employers that it lacks disruptive and hateful students, and I doubt that Columbia has many more than do other universities.
Perhaps Columbia's doing something about the student misbehavior will diminish this risk in some measure, but at most only a little. Indeed, say there are students who have disruptive and hateful impulses, but Columbia threatens such forceful retaliation that it effectively deters the students from acting out on those impulses while at Columbia. Then its graduates will still be "disruptive and hateful" on the inside, and ready to act up whenever they are in an environment where they can't effectively be deterred. And in any event, it's hard to see how Columbia's failure to properly discipline the small fraction of its students that misbehaves bears on the quality of the great majority of students who don't misbehave.
To be sure, I agree that Columbia can and should punish the disruptive students; I've argued that often before. My point is simply that Columbia's failures as to a few students shouldn't be a basis for a boycott of all Columbia students
[2.] Relatedly, the letter states,
Recent events demonstrate that ideological homogeneity throughout the entire institution of Columbia has destroyed its ability to train future leaders of a pluralistic and intellectually diverse country. Both professors and administrators are on the front lines of the campus disruptions, encouraging the virulent spread of antisemitism and bigotry. Significant and dramatic change in the composition of its faculty and administration is required to restore confidence in Columbia.
Now I agree that ideologically homogeneity does make a university somewhat less effective at training its graduates to work in an ideologically heterogeneous world. That may be particularly important for future lawyers, who have to be able to understand judges, jurors, clients, and opposing counsel of all ideological stripes, and to speak effectively to those people.
But while Columbia likely is unduly ideologically homogeneous, there's little reason to think that it's any more so than various other universities that the judges aren't boycotting. The judges' boycott, after all, was triggered by the Columbia administration's failure to properly respond to disruptive protests—not by some finding that Columbia is unusually ideologically homogeneous or unusually repressive of conservative views.
And, again, there are plenty of graduates of all schools who come out being closed-minded and ill-educated in speaking to people with other views, and plenty of graduates of all schools who come out otherwise. A categorical refusal to hire Columbia graduates seems like a very poor fit to Columbia's problems.
[3.] A 2022 speech by the judge who proposed the 2022 Yale Law School boycott (because of that school's restricting student speech and failing to adequately protect such speech) argued that,
Suppose a law school discriminates on the basis of race. Could a judge publicly refuse to hire from that school, in hopes of spurring change? Surely a judge could do so. And if so, why can a judge stand up for color blindness, but not freedom of speech?
As my BYU example involving sexual orientation suggests, I think we ought to eschew boycotts of neutral students even in that example. Of course, it's easy today to condemn discrimination by law schools against, say, black students, but of course that principle is so well-settled today that such boycotts are unlikely to be necessary: Law schools have for nearly 60 years been effectively legally forbidden from engaging in such discrimination, and the remedy for the discrimination is likely legal action rather than boycott. But in 1962, should employers have boycotted job applicants who had graduated from colleges that had engaged in race discrimination? There too it seems to me that such an approach would have been unfair to the many students who were just making the best of a difficult situation for them, and would have been more destructive than constructive.
And even if one might say that race discrimination in 1962 by law schools was so heinous that it would ethically justify such a secondary boycott, consider again the process of analogy and escalation: This example of a response to Jim Crow was being used as an analogy to pressure Yale Law School to suppress behavior that I agree is harmful, but not nearly as harmful as race discrimination was in 1962. Once we start down the path, and travel from 1962 race discrimination to 2022 Yale and 2024 Columbia, we're increasing the likelihood that things won't stop short of the BYU and abortion examples I gave—or perhaps won't stop even there.
[4.] Finally, I should acknowledge that many employers may already look down on BYU applicants, or on applicants who went to religious colleges more broadly, or on applicants from red states that have policies that the employers may dislike, or on many other applicants. There is likely little we can practically do about that (or for that matter about some employers unduly preferring applicants from schools in places they like, or from schools with ideologies they like). But turning this unspoken reality into something that is overt, publicly stated policy—policy that others are urged to adopt—strikes me as a major escalation.
[* * *]
All this brings to my mind Jefferson's first inaugural address, which followed an extraordinarily bitter election and indeed a period of overt suppression of dissent under the Sedition Act of 1798, but which aimed to hold out an olive branch to the losing side:
Let us, then, fellow-citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions.
Here too, I expect that many of the judges who signed the letter agree: Both they and I long for a return to a more harmonious, more affectionate political landscape, in the country as a whole, in our shared profession, and in particular in American law schools.
The question is: How do we get there? And I think that secondary boycotts will only push us further from our goal.
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Secondary boycotts are at the heart of cancel culture: You don’t hate the people I hate hard enough, so I hate you. It’s intolerance of those who are tolerant — as when Megyn Kelly dared to tolerate people in politically incorrect Halloween costumes. It’s: “Will you condemn and denounce person or idea X”.
Exactly, and what they are doing here is saying that anyone who enrolls THIS FALL or thereafter -- which gives them 3 years to say that Columbia has cleaned up its act.
And it either will have or won't be worth hiring from in 3 years.
But in a world of cancel culture, why shouldn't we play the same game? Look at the people who were canceled for merely being in Charlottesville that afternoon -- including those who might merely have been curious.
Because sometimes people try to do the right thing, even (indeed, especially!) if people they disagree with don’t. This is what’s sometime referred to as “morality”. I appreciate that it’s a concept you’re only familiar with secondhand.
'But in a world of cancel culture, why shouldn’t we play the same game?'
You never played any other game, Freedom Fries.
No doubt these students will be able to get clerkships in Iran or Yemen.
Really? Even Jewish students who support Israel, didn't break any rules, and could be swept up by the boycott for attending Columbia? You want them to take jobs in Iran?
I apologize for my snark. I actually disagree with the boycott. The only people who should suffer negative consequences are the people who participate in the misconduct and the severity of those negative consequences should be commensurate with the degree of their misconduct. Punishment should be commensurate with the crime...which is the ACTUAL way that the ancient Hebrews came to interpret the statement in the Torah, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." This statement could not be interpreted literally since the Torah forbids maiming and/or mutilation as punishment.
And unless these schools are going to publish who they are you're better off not hiring anyone lest you hire the very people you want to avoid and the school is protecting for that very reason.
You vastly overestimate the reach this set of performative Trumpy judges have.
Columbia students generally will just get clerkships with better judges, learn how to be decent writers and practitioners, and then make a lot of money defending Chevron or whatever.
Given that the boycott begins with the entering class of 2024, what is the real world impact?
Violent threats against the public to cause a change in governing policy is terrorism.
What X should we use in "X-terrorism" to identify this boycott?
In 2021 President Herzog called boycotts of Israel "economic terrorism".
"Cultural terrorism" has been used to refer to the destruction of historical artifacts in the Middle East and Africa, and the removal of Confederate statues in Georgia.
Two years ago government spokeswoman Maria Zakharova claimed aggressive western media coverage of Russia was "information terrorism", probably Ukraine-led.
Resume terrorism.
But all those examples are weak, people who are serious use "genocide". Professor Ho is engaging in resume genocide.
I was favoring "career terrorism" only because it is easier to type than "resumé".
Regardless, it is very good satire of a certain kind of person present on both sides of the aisle.
"Even if they go to Columbia knowing about Columbia policy (and about the boycott), they shouldn't be held responsible for what Columbia does, and they shouldn't be retaliated against as a means of trying to pressure Columbia to change."
Even if they join the Nazi party knowing about the Nazi policy (and about the boycott), they shouldn't be held responsible for what the Nazis do, and they shouldn't be retaliated against as a means of trying to pressure the Nazis to change.
Compare and contrast.
That's an obtuse comparison. Colleges aren't political parties, they sell services. Whatever beliefs held by specific administrators or policies they enact are going to be incidental to its main function. I could not for the life of me tell you what the leaders of my law school believed or what policies I might disagree with existed because I really didn't care.
Groups are groups.
Corporations, political parties, 'higher education' all wield economic and political power. If you don't care about how they use that power, that is your decision.
So there's no such thing as "just a job" to you? If I work somewhere, it's reasonable for people to assume that I endorse anything and everything the place does in its capacity as a company?
Let's look at it the other way: should I refrain from getting a job and feeding myself or my family unless I can find somewhere to work whose mission, product, investment choices, etc. all match my specific values and political beliefs? Doesn't that say far worse things about me as a person than whatever tenuous links one could draw by simple association?
You think people didn't join the Nazi party just to get a job? How ignorant of history are you?
Personally, I think "denazification" was unjust 'guilt by association' but most people (especially at the time) disagree. Assuming you are part of that majority, why was that action acceptable but this one is not?
“Colleges aren’t political parties, they sell services”
I don’t put Black Hills Energy or Toyota on my resume, and don't expect credibility from doing so.
College are far more than service providers. Ask their faculty, alums, and parents of their students.
In some cases the collective identity on offer is more powerful than political affiliation.
Should it be that way? Can’t say.
I presume you would if you worked for them...
There is actually a difference between good things (going to a good university for an education) and bad things (joining the Nazi Party).
Hope this helps.
Ah, but what if you know beforehand that the particular university you're going to (teaches Nazi doctrine / discriminates against Jews / etc.). Is that still "a good thing"?
Well for one thing, if it does, then it is not a "good university" because Nazism is bad. See how that works? As for Columbia, do you have any evidence that it teaches Nazi doctrine as a good thing or discriminates against Jews as an institution? Because I am sure you don't have that. And lying about something to make it seem as bad as a known bad thing is also bad.
Hope this helps.
Well for one thing, if it does, then it is not a “good university” because Nazism is bad. See how that works?
Perfectly. The university's baggage reflects on its product and its brand. Caveat emptor.
Groups are groups, but they're made up of many individuals, with many different motivations for being part of them. More importantly, you're mixing groups: customers, employes and owners can all be different groups.
Yeah, Longtobefree, by continuing to post here you're signaling support for everything written by Fiona Harrigan.
Not until I pay - - - - - - - -
.
source: https://reason.com/volokh/2023/12/13/university-presidential-testimony-fallout/?comments=true#comment-10356914
I agree with nearly all of this, so much that I decline to quibble with the weaker points.
Me too.
(wow)
Well, I disagree.
If you're willing to go to a university knowing that it has a policy of holding an annual parade to commemorate the Fuhrer's Birthday, observers can deduce that commemorating the Fuhrer's Birthday isn't that big of a deal (negatively) for you, even if you don't take part personally. You bought that brand. Those who think the brand stinks can take that into account.
Now obviously there are details :
(a) what precisely is the thing the university does that is objected to, and how smelly is it ?
(b) did you get the opportunity to dissociate yourself from the smell - and did you take it ?
(c) did you know about the smell before you got there, or did they spring it on you half way through ?
(d) we're talking about children
But at the level of generality I think Prof Volokh's argument falls at the first hurdle. He assumes the "innocent" are innocent. That assumes facts not in evidence.
If it's confined to an annual Hitler parade and I'm not required to participate, and I don't participate, what am I individually guilty of?
Aren't you assuming the fact that me going to the school with the Hitler parade means I love Hitler, etc?
No, I'm deducing (not assuming) that the fact that your school has an annual Hitler parade either doesn't offend you, or doesn't offend you enough, to choose a different school.
You have brought a product in the market - say a hat. You like the hat, it's cool. It's just that it has a little swastika* logo, that maybe quite a few people won't see. You're not a Nazi. But for those who do see the little swastika on your hat - they're allowed to think "Huh ! He bought a hat with a swastika on it ? What kind of person does that ?"
* or hammer and sickle, or KKK, or even MAGA.
Choosing the right school comes down to many factors. The school's ancillary association with something I may or not believe and whether that "offends" me is going to be pretty far down on that list. Plenty of non-religious people go to religiously affiliated schools, for instance.
And I'm not participating in the Hitler parade, just like I'm not wearing the hat. At most, I'm the cashier at the store selling the hat.
Nevertheless, I promise you that if you pick a school that has an annual Hitler parade, employers are gonna take that into account.
I don't think that's right; I think you're just another customer in the store.
Correct, you're just another customer.
But it's not just any old store, selling a range of stuff from different suppiers.
It's a North Face store, everything in it bears the North Face logo. And you didn't just browse, you bought.
"But at the level of generality I think Prof Volokh’s argument falls at the first hurdle. He assumes the “innocent” are innocent. That assumes facts not in evidence."
It's a silly assumption, really, which incidentally forms the basis of Western criminal law.
Actually in the criminal law it’s a formal presumption made to establish where the burden of proof lies. It doesn't constitute anyone's actual state of mind - it's just a rule.
Outside the court, actual humans can assume what they like, and usually do. That’s the basis of normal human life in the West. And the East, North and South.
Again, this could have been written by any "Believe All Women" in response to a defense of someone accused of sexual assault that nothing has been proved in a court of law.
The objection to Believe All Women is that it's an injunction to turn off your brain and assume a conclusion by rote.
Why would you do that ? In the real world, it's OK - even recommended - to keep the brain turned on. Thus we all make assumptions all the time based on good, bad or middling facts and we certainly don't conclude that we cannot make any judgements unless and until something has been proved in a court of law. Indeed we often conclude that what the court of law has found is crap.
In the law courts you are suppose to presume the accused is innocent until it's proven otherwise, as a rule, to prevent someone going to jail based on a guess. Even there it's not an invitation to turn off the brain.
In the real world, outside the law courts, we're allowed to guess. And sometimes we're good guessers and sometimes we're not. Life is not a law court. You're welcome to assume X is a groper before it's proved in court. You're also welcome to assume Y is a gold digger and is making it up. Using your brain will improve your guesses.
"doesn’t offend you enough"
This makes Jacob's point. It's how the woke 'cancel culture' thinks: a bank or an internet service or what have you should be canceled because they do business with a known "fascist," "white supremacist" or what have you. They should have been "offended enough" to not do so, so they must be punished.
Letitia James and Maria Vullo have entered the chat.
Fully agree. Well said.
A thorough harrowing of hypotheticals from EV. But left out is explanation why self-constraint should be expected from a majority rendered otherwise hapless by multi-leveraged minority control.
EV is in effect writing to advise against over-reach in the minority-control business. Wise counsel, no doubt.
Ho and his like-minded colleagues might be discomfited if America's elite universities decided to take inspiration from Ho's example. They could boycott admissions applicants from Texas, Florida, and any other states conspiring politically to cripple their public education systems.
Medical professional associations could withhold credentials from practitioners attempting to provide service under unethical constraints imposed by benighted state legislators.
Ho should probably give some thought to what EV has to say, before the topic of what to do about Supreme Court minority control of the nation's politics comes into sharper focus.
Yes, what if random government officials began ignoring the law to show solidarity with Hamas? That's your argument? They would get sued in their personal capacity, and lose, and most people would go about their lives the same as always, pausing perhaps for a moment to reflect on how stupid of an idea that was.
You think Ho can be sued personally I he doesn't hire a clerk from Columbia?
No, you gibbering fool, I'm referring to your examples, obviously. That's how replying works. Medical boards, for example, do not have that discretion. You think it's a clever analogy but that's because you don't really think at all.
"A thorough harrowing of hypotheticals from EV. But left out is explanation why self-constraint should be expected from a majority rendered otherwise hapless by multi-leveraged minority control"
For Christ's sake, man, put down the thesaurus.
I know what you mean. Problem is, I don't have time to make my unedited first drafts look like the work of a divinely inspired simpleton. That's my ideal of course, and it's a target I know how to hit when I have plenty of time to take careful aim.
I agree with the part about the secondary boycotts, but I'm not sure why judges should be allowed to consider ideology when they hire clerks.
First, as a matter of first amendment law, it would appear to be an unconstitutional condition. There may be case law to the contrary as applied to political positions, but that shouldn't be extended to judges.
Second, judges are agents of the governments that they work for and required to make their hiring decisions in the government's interest, and not to pursue some personally favored policy.
You could have a clerk pool hired by the division or circuit as a whole and not by an individual judge.
"but I’m not sure why judges should be allowed to consider ideology when they hire clerks."
Doesn't this hinge on the content of the ideology? Suppose the potential clerk's ideology says that they should warp the law in unconstitutional directions? Do you really say that a judge would have to hire somebody they'd have to continually keep an eye on, and couldn't trust the work product of?
Ideology sometimes supports actions that are incompatible with the appropriate role of a judicial clerk.
Here I thought the purpose of higher education was to equip a graduate to examine one's own ideology and act in spite of it when the ideology yields perverse results.
It would be nice to think that.
.
If you think the Federalist Society has invested decades and enormous volumes of time and money to get this far, and is going to give an inch on its program of affirmative action for right-wingers in federal clerkships, I have a slightly used dog and a Kim Jong Un interview transcript to sell to you.
The same could be said of Open Society Foundation, Tides, Arabella . . . Emily's List . . SPLC . .
Sure, but only by people unfamiliar with (ignorant concerning) the world of judicial clerks.
I don't need to know what's inside of it to evaluate what comes out of it.
Can anyone else understand and perhaps explain a point Aubrey LaVentana is trying to advance?
This isn't just considering ideology, it's being performative about it, leveraging a federal position into a bully pulpit.
For some of them, especially these 13, they don’t need to “consider” ideology because they’ll rarely if ever get applications from non-fellow travelers. No self-respecting liberal would apply for a Ho or Kacsmaryck clerkship. Hell it’s possibly to the point where no self-respecting lawyer who wants to work somewhere besides the Texas AG’s office or some right-wing sinecure would take them because they’re churning out such embarrassing shit.
A Jim Ho clerkship should be a red flag for an employer based on writing style alone. You’d have to basically de-program them.
I would treat law clerks similar to an under or assistant secretary in the cabinet. If the judge wants a person who has particular viewpoints on the law, he should be able to discriminate on that basis.
Correct.
Even to anticipate and understand, maybe even defeat, challenges to the judge's ruling.
If the policy of the school administration is to support extermination of Jews, Palestinians, or ice cream truck drivers that policy belongs to the faculty rather than the students.
While I have rarely been involved in hiring decisions, I have a mental list of schools where the students seem to be nuts and I would hesitate to hire from those schools. Camping out in the courtyard in the name of Mandela, Palestine, or free ice cream doesn’t rise to the level of nuts. The problem arises when students demand that this professor or that student group be punished and the administration caves. There may be other schools I haven’t noticed because the administrators have balls. Compare this corporate policy: “If you’d find it hard to support our content breadth, Netflix may not be the best place for you.”
If the policy of the school administration is to support extermination of Jews, Palestinians, or ice cream truck drivers that policy belongs to the faculty rather than the students.
The faculty is putting out a 'defective product', isn't it? (Meaning law students unmoored from reason, logic or morality)
Lots of people are smart and capable in one domain and really dumb in another domain. Just because you support policy X doesn't make the rest of your reasoning suspect, or even if it makes it suspect, it certainly doesn't mean you can't be good at other things. (e.g., Tesla's cars are good or not despite what you think about how Musk is running X or his political views)
To a certain extent, this is the sad state of American political discourse today: we've gotten to the point that we assume that everyone on the other political team is stupid. But that's half the country, and mostly sorted by geography/population density! So it's obviously not the case that everyone that disagrees with us is stupid, but comments like the above imply that just because someone disagrees with you they are "unmoored from reason, logic or morality". No wonder the political discourse is mostly not very productive these days.
jb, go to Columbia's campus in NYC and tell me how reason, logic and morality are moored. Same with Northwestern, or MIT.
Lol there are a small percentage of kids being performative idiots, (they actually have that in common with the judges) and the vast majority of students go to class, take exams, hang out with their friends, get ready for jobs, etc.
Adults who haven’t stepped on a campus in years (if ever) have such a warped perspective of what goes on at schools but take the brief clips they see online as constituting the life of the university.
A historical comparison to drive this point home: when the National Guard fired into the protests at Kent State, they ended up killing two students who were just walking to class, like so many other students that day.
Are you more a fan of conservative campuses?
Which do you like best about conservative campuses:
_ bigotry (gay-bashing; old-timey misogyny; transphobia, etc.)
_ suppression of science to flatter childish superstition
_ enforcement of dogma
_ statements of faith
_ warping of history for congruence with fairy tales
_ teaching of nonsense
_ strenuous discrimination in hiring, firing, admissions, etc.
_ loyalty oaths
_ lousy reputations
_ old-timey speech and conduct codes
_ lackluster alumni
_ rejection of academic freedom
_ fourth-tier rankings (or unranked status)
_ downscale faculty
_ all of the above
I suspect if you went into any random class at Columbia you'd see a lot of reason, logic and morality, just like on any other college campus. Other than there being some protestors whose views you disagree with, what leads you to believe that anything else would be the case? There's a reason people from all over the world are willing to pay tons of money to go to these places, and it's not for liberal indoctrination.
"The faculty is putting out a ‘defective product’, isn’t it? (Meaning law students unmoored from reason, logic or morality)"
Arguably, law schools that manage to turn out graduates that are too moored to morality aren't doing their job....
That is actually a good point. I agree. = Arguably, law schools that manage to turn out graduates that are too moored to morality aren’t doing their job….
Brings to mind the old New Yorker cartoon. From rough memory: an older guy and a younger guy, both with briefcases, walking along a city sidewalk. Older guy to younger guy: "Actually Smedley, it's the anti-bono stuff that pays the bills."
Well if Ho and the like don't want these students, then they are probably churning out a great product. These judges are performative idiots who are terrible writers that are actively bad at their jobs. I don't even mean "they're right wing." I mean they have a fundamental misunderstanding about what constitutes good writing and basic legal principles (like civil procedure, evidence, remedies, etc.).
Jim Ho not wanting students from a school can also indicate the school doing something correct: producing competent lawyers.
The letter seems problematic in that it targets only students joining Columbia after the events in question.
I understand the desire to give students some advance warning of the boycott, so that they can avoid its application by attending a different institution, but the justification for the boycott would appear to apply with equal strength to any one attending the institution today. Maybe even more so, because future students can at least be confidently said to have not taken part in the recent events that sparked the boycott.
I think they'd actually be on stronger grounds if the boycott included present students!
I disagree. Current students cannot be assumed to have known about a policy that has only emerged after they have arrived. Future students can.
Sure, and I noted that. I'm assuming the purpose of the boycott is to avoid hiring graduates of the sort Columbia is presumed to be producing. And it's producing them NOW, not just prospectively, or else the events wouldn't have happened in the first place.
I mean, sure, you can think it's actually going to get worse going forward, but it's actually pretty bad already, and at least you know that future students weren't actual participants in these offenses.
So, threatening them in order to prevent them expressing their views. Free speech absolutism strikes again.
My view is that we shouldn't threaten innocent neutrals as a means of influencing the culpable.
My dad explained to me when I started driving at age 16, I would be judged by the people I associated with. It the context at that time, dad was explaining that he would not listen to my claims that I did not know there was Beer or pot at the party, or I wasn't partaking. If you are there, you are guilty. I was hanging out with a guy 3 years older, because he had a rebuilt Impala, with a 427, and 4 speed. Dad said the kid will run afoul the law. He ended with "enough said" . Meaning you have been warned, I will not bail you out.
Adults in law school have been warned. 'enough said'
But what happened to the Impala? Don't leave us hanging.
Sold to support his habit.
I am still friends with his brother, my age.
The guy has been in prison for 15 year for screwing the 14 year old babysitter.
Its kind of weird. The courts forced him in his teens to enlist in military. He choose the Navy. He worked himself in the Presidential detail.
He was always a problem. I guess Dads can see these things.
As usual, Eugene, you reach for the banal when the real question is more challenging.
Ho, et al.’s, threat is as empty as it is idiotic. None of these judges would actually decline to consider a Columbia grad’s clerkship application, provided they carry sufficient conservative bona fides. A Columbia undergrad with a GMU law degree, for instance, or someone with a strong Federalist Society track record. At the same time, it seems very unlikely that these judges were attracting much interest from Columbia grads anyway, so (assuming that the threat would be followed through) they are unlikely to lose much in the way of talent.
So the secondary boycott question isn’t really that interesting. Ho’s a partisan hack who will pivot when and as it pleases him. Set it aside.
More problematic, in my view, is this phenomenon of sitting jurists attempting to leverage their limited economic power in order to coerce university administrations to adopt (in this case) extraordinarily strict, conservative policies on culture-war issues. Ho, et al., have no real concern in the quality of students that Columbia will award degrees to, and it is a bit silly to accept their claims at face value. What these judges are trying to do is to scare quality students away from Columbia, as a way of attacking Columbia’s pedigree directly, because they have deemed the administration’s response to the pro-Palestinian protests to be insufficiently punitive.
That is, simply put, none of their business. Their job, as jurists, is to preside over the rule of law. If they want to write op-eds in the WSJ about what they think university administrators ought to be doing, then they have every right to beclown themselves accordingly. But they are taking federal job opportunities that are of great value to a subset of ambitious law students – not something they “own” or that belongs to them – and attempting to use their position in government to force social changes they’d like to see. In a jurisdiction far-flung from their own, no less!
This is why your chosen hypothetical, Eugene, is (again as usual) so frustratingly inapt. You compare the judges’ employment decisions to those of private employers. But the comparison you should be drawing is to other federal or state employers. You apparently do not draw that comparison because you believe that judges have some interest in the ideological persuasions of the students they hire as clerks – so there is no First Amendment issue with their hiring accordingly. But you’ll note that’s not the question here. Ho, et al., is not promising to ideologically sort students from Columbia with greater scrutiny. They are promising to boycott Columbia students in order to achieve some other purpose that has nothing to do with their actual jobs or interests in managing their chambers.
So imagine, not some consortium of law firms, but the White House declaring that graduates of BYU or GMU or Notre Dame would be “boycotted” from employment within the federal government, at any level – in order to pressure those institutions to liberalize their policies on same-sex relationships and marriage. Concededly, for at least some policy-making roles, the federal government would not be prohibited by the First Amendment from declining employment to specific individuals who do not share the federal government’s views on same-sex relationships. But this boycott would extend further, and purport to preclude employment even of grads who share the administration’s policy views.
That is the comparison you ought to be drawing here. It’s not a tit-for-tat problem; it’s a problem about the misuse of what is, in effect, a government resource. I think present company would howl with outrage if the Biden administration attempted any such government-wide boycott (if their response to the “Twitter files” is any indication). It presents a clear and profound ethical and potentially legal problem, as judges within the Fifth Circuit again attempt to flex power that is not rightfully theirs.
I agree with this. This is federal judges using economic power that does not belong to them to try to effect policy changes at private institutions. Because, as you say, their criteria doesn't have anything to do with the ideology of the actual applicant, this isn't different from any other hiring manager in the federal government using an improper criteria to discriminate against graduates of universities that they don't like. It undoubtedly goes on, but to brazenly publicly announce that is what you're doing? Only a hack like Ho could think that's a good look. Well, Ho and the people he's marketing himself to for a promotion.
Agreed, it is not "a good look" and is no "different from any other hiring manager in the federal government using an improper criteria to discriminate against graduates of universities that they don’t like."
This is federal judges who rant about strong, reason-based, mainstream, liberal-libertarian schools -- and adore officially bigoted, nonsense-teaching, rampantly discriminatory, academic freedom-flouting schools operated by conservatives.
Maybe this development will precipitate a loss of accreditation for science-suppressing, strenuously bigoted, nonsense-based, censorship-shackled conservative schools.
I'm somewhat more sanguine just because of how little actual impact this has.
The impotence of this small group of performative Trumpy judges means they are *attempting* an abuse of federal authority, but they're not going to succeed because the set of students being effected is vanishingly small.
If anything, they've just done those schools a huge favor. Imagine there is some high schooler who actually decides not to go to Columbia for undergrad because they want a clerkship with Jim Ho some day. That person will likely be one of the most tedious and insufferable humans imaginable. Current and future students, faculty, and staff at that institution should feel relieved.
And here I was thinking that DEI staff were the most tedious and insufferable people imaginable.....aside from an irritated auditor, which takes the top prize. Never piss off a corporate auditor.
Don't ask me how I know this. 🙂
Yeah, an alleged boycott that won't actually take effect until 3 or more years from now is unlikely to have any impact.
provided they carry sufficient conservative bona fides. A Columbia undergrad with a GMU law degree, for instance, or someone with a strong Federalist Society track record
Its a market of supply and demand. If there are few conservatives you are right. But isn't the shift to other law schools going to adjust the supply/demand equation.
It's interesting how many on the right seem now to take not doing enough or allowing a "hostile environment" so very, very seriously (with even a Godwin analogy above!).
And perhaps, alternatively, how many on the left have a similar change of heart about it.
I'm not defending the boycott here, I'm simply noting that the parameters of it don't seem a good match to apparent motivation.
misplaced
Polarization, cancellation, deplatforming, guilt by association.
There is also more than a whiff of what could be called credentialism: judges and firms use the diploma, and the source of the diploma, to select whom to hire, instead of interviewing and vetting the candidate as a person in depth.
I do not know the process law firms and judges use to select which candidates make the first cut, nor even how many cuts they make to the mass of applicants. I'd like to believe that they look at the person first, not the school. Otherwise you have the Reverend round-filing everyone from freshwater or prairie schools.
Judge Ho has been doing this sort of thing a lot lately, and very publicly: I can't help but think it's all going to end up with judges having less discretion in hiring clerks.
Because Judge Ho is an open bigot (who seems to believe religion improves bigotry, or transforms bigotry into something other than bigotry), I would expect to learn that he prefers clerks from bigoted, nonsense-teaching schools.
> "My view is that we shouldn't threaten innocent neutrals as a means of influencing the culpable."
There's a common name for that behavior: "hostage taking."
It's unfortunately a common feature in modern boycott and protest behavior. The protestor threatens the experience of neutrals in the (mostly vain) hope that this will cause those people to take their side, or at least behave in a way that rewards their side.
I've compared it to picketing a food bank: workers at the food bank have a wage and hour dispute with management, and so they decide to close down the food bank in protest -- effectively harming the community that relies on the food bank, but not really doing damage to a non-profit that is their true target. It's an example of someone who adopts a tactic from one circumstance (traditional industrial labor fights) to a different circumstance (work disputes with a public university, for example) without thinking about what is actually going on.
BTW, superb post here, EV.
Yes, "There’s a common name for that behavior: 'hostage taking'." And it is unwise hostage-taking and, as the original author notes, likely to escalate rather than resolve the matter.
I too agree with the original author, and will express such agreement with Somin-esq brevity. 🙂
"No university can assure employers that it lacks disruptive and hateful students." Every student must realize that ultimately he will "work in an ideologically heterogeneous world" and, borrowing from Jefferson's first inaugural address, these students must be equipped with "resources of wisdom, of virtue, and of zeal on which to rely under all difficulties." "[T]he quality of an education [...] turns on many factors." I use Noam Chomsky as an example: while I disagree with virtually all of his political statements, his work in biolinguistics and transformational-generative grammar is inarguably brilliant, making every moment of his tuition valuable to any worthy student. But beyond his brilliance, Chomsky offers to his students a glimpse of the zeal and clarity of thought necessary in a competitive world. We trust our universities to embody in each student Jefferson's maxim that "every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle."
Yes, neutrals should be "free to sit it out," "guilt by association" should be rejected, and "values of tolerance and open-mindedness" should be encouraged even in such matters where "no-one is a neutral." But we also expect and demand of students the zeal which will lead "every man, at the call of the law, [to] fly to the standard of the law, and [to] meet invasions of the public order as his own personal concern," acknowledgement that virtue "result[s] not from birth, but from our actions and their sense of them," and the wisdom to recognize that "a mild and safe corrective of abuses [implemented by] lopp[ing] by the sword of revolution [is to be employed only] where peaceable remedies are unprovided."
It is all too easy to extract "a mouth full of teeth for a tooth" and is much more difficult to tolerate "the proud man's contumely," "the spurns That patient merit of the unworthy takes," and "the errors of others, who may condemn what they would not if seen in all its parts." But to achieve "a more harmonious, more affectionate political landscape, in the country as a whole," we must.
All I can say is shrimp and grits.
Anyone else see the irony here?
Protesters demonstrate against a nation’s actions to punish a terrorist group for the slaughter of over a thousand of its people. They oppose those actions and demand that the university divest from that nation's investments and disassociate itself in other ways as well. They want this because they say that the nation in question is punishing the innocent along with the guilty. Judges write a letter saying that these protesters are being so awful and bigoted that they will boycott all graduates of the university where the demonstrations occur because it isn’t doing enough to stop those protests. That boycott will clearly punish the innocent along with the guilty. Or worse than that, it will punish future innocent graduates while doing nothing to punish the ‘guilty’ of the present.
Maybe irony isn’t the right word. I think stupidity is more accurate.
Funny and true. And, yes, stupid. Incredibly so.
I'm not sure how being pro-war functions as a legal qualification.
Orin weighs in (in 2022).
I agree with Professor Volokh, but I think another issue with the letter (much further down on the totem pole) is conflating Columbia as a whole with Columbia Law. I'm only working with a sample size of one (not Columbia), but in my experience law schools are relatively autonomous from their universities, have their own cultures, and have faculties who do not necessarily match the ideological spectrum of the rest of the university. The generally practices of a university writ large just aren't very relevant to quality of education provided by its law school. As much as I disagreed with Judge Ho's first boycott, at least it was focused on the responsible insitution (Yale Law). This feels even further removed - almost like a tertiary boycott.
Any judge signing this boycott should be barred from elevation to a higher position.