The Volokh Conspiracy
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Campus Anti-Israel Protests and the Ethics of Civil Disobedience
Civil disobedience is sometimes justified. But current law-breaking by anti-Israel protestors on college campuses doesn't come close to meeting the requisite moral standards.

Anti-Israel protestors on some college campuses have engaged in clearly illegal behavior, including taking over buildings, building illegal encampments on school property (thereby denying its use to other students), restricting the freedom of movement of other students who disagree with their views, and even some physical violence. Some defenders of the protest have justified these illegal tactics by calling them civil disobedience.
Illegal actions can indeed be justified in some situations. But the tactics used by many anti-Israel protestors fail any plausible criteria for such. The laws they are violating are not unjust. The victims of the violations are almost entirely innocent people. The violations are highly unlikely to lead to improvements in government policy. And, finally, the protestors' objectives are themselves unjust.
Martin Luther King and many others have argued (correctly) that people have a right to disobey unjust laws. Thus, those who violated the Fugitive Slave Acts or various laws mandating racial segregation had excellent justifications for their actions. Elsewhere, I have argued that many undocumented immigrants are justified in violating immigration restrictions.
Moreover, people who violate unjust laws don't necessarily have a duty to accept punishment for doing so. For example, members of the Underground Railroad who helped escaped slaves evade the Fugitive Slave Act had no moral obligation to turn themselves in to the authorities. Ditto for dissidents resisting oppressive dictatorships.
This argument obviously doesn't help lawbreaking anti-Israel protestors. Laws banning campus building takeovers and encampments, and protecting the freedom of movement of students are not unjust. Even most supporters of the protestors readily recognize this in other contexts. For example, they would likely agree that pro-life activists are not justified in occupying buildings in order to try to force the university to divest from businesses that profit from abortion, or that Trump backers cannot do so to force the university to endorse claims that the 2020 election was "stolen" from Trump.
One can argue that violating otherwise just laws is permissible in order to target people who are themselves perpetrators of injustice. For example, perhaps anti-slavery activists would have been justified in occupying the property of slaveowners in order to pressure them to free their slaves. But the main victims of campus building takeovers, encampments, and coercive restrictions on movement, are students, faculty, and others who have no meaningful responsibility for any injustices occurring in the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
Merely investing in firms with a presence in Israel is nowhere near enough to justify targeting people. The protestors themselves implicitly recognize that, since they do not use such tactics to demand divestment from businesses that operate in China, Saudi Arabia, and other countries with far worse human rights records than Israel. And, to repeat, the main victims of illegal protest activities are not university officials who control investments but students and faculty (who generally have little or no such control).
Perhaps harming innocent people could still be defended if doing so were the only way to achieve some greater good. But that argument doesn't help the anti-Israel protestors either. It is highly unlikely their actions will lead to any improvement in either US or Israel policy. Even if some universities divest from Israel as a result (which itself is highly questionable), that isn't going to lead to any beneficial changes in Israeli or US policy. Moreover, the protestors' behavior is likely to damage their cause more than it aids it. Polls indicate most of the public condemns these types of actions. One survey found that 71% support calling in the police to arrest protestors who occupy buildings or block other people from using parts of the campus.
At the very least, before embarking on actions that harm innocent people and violate their rights, protestors should have strong evidence that doing so really will achieve some great good that cannot be accomplished in any other way. Campus anti-Israel protestors haven't even come close to meeting that burden.
The above analysis implicitly assumes the protestors have a just cause, even if they are going about pursuing it the wrong way. In fact, however, most of them do not.
Students for Justice in Palestine and other organizations leading the protests support Hamas's horrific October terrorist attacks and the replacement of Israel by a Palestinian state led by Hamas or some other similar organization. The virtually inevitable result would be extermination or expulsion of most of the Jewish population. Palestinian Arabs wouldn't benefit either. They would end up with a state ruled by a brutally repressive dictatorship, similar to the oppressive Hamas regime that has ruled Gaza since it seized power in 2007. Even if you believe - as I do - that the Israeli government has many flawed and unjust policies - the alternative backed by the protest leaders is far worse.
Some rank-and-file protest participants may not subscribe to the leaders' agenda. But, if so, they have a duty to dissociate themselves from it, or at least refuse to participate in actions organized by such people. Nothing prevents them from setting up their own independent protest organizations that abjure the terrible agenda backed by the leaders of the current protests.
There are many demands the protestors could make that would help Palestinians without endorsing the evil agenda of Hamas and other similar groups. Most obviously, they could demand that Hamas release its hostages and surrender. That would immediately end the war, stop the suffering of the hostages, and free Gaza Palestinians from a brutal dictatorship. In addition, it would help forestall further conflict, which would otherwise be virtually inevitable so long as Hamas remains in power (since they have promised to "repeat October 7 again and again" if given the opportunity to do so).
Short of that, they could at least demand that Hamas fighters wear uniforms (as required by the laws of war) and stop their ubiquitous tactic of using civilians as human shields. That would do much reduce civilian casualties. They could also demand - as I myself have urged - that Arab and Western nations open their doors to Gaza refugees, which would also help reduce civilian losses and otherwise alleviate suffering in many ways.
If they want to focus on Israeli actions, they could try to focus on actual violations of the laws of war, as opposed to denying that Israel has any right to fight genocidal terrorists in the first place. Israel has taken extensive actions to try minimize civilian losses, more than other armies in comparable circumstances. But it is certainly arguable they should do more. Protestors could also target dubious Israeli actions on the West Bank, such as land seizures by settlers, while keeping in mind that the Palestinian Authority is also a repressive dictatorship (even if a somewhat less awful one than Hamas).
It's unlikely that any of the above demands will be granted merely because campus protestors make them. But the same is true of the protestors' efforts to influence Israeli or US policy.
This isn't meant to be an exhaustive list, just an illustrative one. There are likely other at least plausibly just measures protestors could advocate, as well.
Even a fully just cause wouldn't be enough to justify violating the rights of innocent people, absent overwhelming evidence that doing so would achieve some great good. But having a just cause is a necessary, though not by itself sufficient, moral prerequisite for those kinds of actions.
Even people backing awful ideas still have the right to engage in peaceful protest that doesn't violate the rights of others. That's the essence of freedom of speech. But if you go beyond that, you at least need a very strong justification. Current anti-Israel protests fall far short.
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Bullshit.
I've had enough -- it's time for the loyal Americans to show up with baseball bats.
I don't know what is wrong with Ilya -- these are terrorists and need to be dealt with as such...
Fuck you.
People chanting aren’t terrorists. And the proper response to lawbreaking is not vigilantes with baseball bats but regular law enforcement.
You really should be banned, if for no other reason than your endless calls for mass violence. You contribute nothing here.
Here you are, taking advantage of EV's tolerance for even the most odious speech, to demand that people saying something ytou don't like should be shut down violently.
Baseball bats. STFU.
You don't have a clue what a "loyal American" is.
And when the police are ordered by the mayor to NOT enforce trespassing laws?
When government takes sides instead of being a neutral enforcer?
Fuck YOU.
I'm sorry they were for a while at least putting the welfare and safety of the students ahead of your arbitrary Trump-supporting respect for lawnorder.
They didn't do that 20 years ago, and I don't see why they should do it now.
The "championship disturbances" were ended by gratuitous police violence and this should be ended the same way -- it either was wrong then, or it is OK now...
And as to letting the arseholes get away with it -- don't be surprised when Patriotic Americans show up with baseball bats, chanting USA!, USA!, USA!
No one cares that Virginia Snellgrove died -- so fuck these losers and let them die too.
And if blocking classes, threatening and actually assaulting Jews and others, and camping out for weeks, are not terrorists, then please, let us know how you feel about the Jan 6 "insurrectionists", who had no weapons, caused very little destruction, and were actually let in and escorted around by police.
Your priorities are so obvious. Marx, fine! Anything to his right, scumbag traitor.
You are defending Ed’s bloody minded nonsense again.
It’s not marxist to say maybe not time for mob violence, you weirdo.
No, he is criticizing bernard11's siding with terrorists.
But no surprise you are a friend to terrorists. Again.
Bernard was going after Ed for being a violent yahoo. You defending Ed as well?
Blocking people from going to class sucks. It’s not terrorism so Ed is a psycho who should put down the baseball bat.
It IS terrorism.
Not quite to the same degree as blowing up an airliner, but it IS terrorism.
"You are defending Ed’s bloody minded nonsense again."
Under the Geneva Conventions (etc.), it is perfectly legal to kill them.
If they are unarmed, you give them an opportunity to surrender, if they don't, you can kill them.
Blocking traffic is an act of war.
You are dumb and love to talk up violence against liberals but also clearly have a screw loose.
You are amusing, in a car accident way.
I’m just amazed anyone defends you and takes you seriously.
"You are dumb and love to talk up violence against liberals..."
The pro-Hamas protesters may be many things, but they are most definitely not liberals (however you define it).
Your definition of pro-Hamas is very broad, so yes it includes plenty of those on the left. The left's been into Free Palestine since the '60s.
Ed, that is one of my personal peeves, and I usually explain it by stating that Pro Life people are the actual liberals in the abortion debate.
The problem is that damn few of them understand John Locke’s concept of God Given rights to one’s LIfe, one’s Liberty, and one’s Property.
And I use the term "leftists" because that is what they are. Fascist leftists.
I am not at all surprised that GaslightO is a Federal Bureaucrat in ED. Not at all...
Blocking traffic is an act of war.
I didn't think you could possibly be as stupid as you seem, but I guess you are. Moron.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
They are agents of a foreign power.
Under the Geneva Conventions (etc.), it is perfectly legal to kill them.
Is there anyone willing to defend this?
Brett?
Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf ?
Michael P.?
Sonia?
Armchair?
NvEric?
Blond Jesus?
...
...
'And if blocking classes, threatening and actually assaulting Jews and others, and camping out for weeks, are not terrorists,'
Even if all these accusations were true, none of it is terrorism.
'let us know how you feel about the Jan 6 “insurrectionists”,'
The ones who were trying to oveturn a legitimate election outcome and install their Dear Leader as dictator-for-life?
"The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals."
So, yeah, actually that would be terrorism.
Good thing they didn't do any of that. Most of the violence and threats of violence were directed against the students.
I guess that's progress, getting you to acknowledge that the behavior is terrorist, and resort to denying that it happened.
There were incidents, so? Most of them occurred when the counter-protesers turned up looking for trouble. Were they the terrorists?
Or, you know, when Jews had the nerve to try to use public areas of the campus, instead of cowering in their dorm rooms.
Staying away from protests they don;t support and which may in fact be diamtreically the opposite of waht they support? But which still includes many Jewish protesters? Fraught, yes. Still not terrorism. The only reason to label this terrorism is to suppress dissent.
Brett, if you do believe it's terrorism, and the police and administrations aren't treating it like such, seems like if you have the courage of your convictions it's time for mobs with baseball bats.
"if you have the courage of your convictions it’s time for mobs with baseball bats."
More of Gaslighto's lies and exaggerations. That is all he's good for
How do you think terrorists should be treated when the State doesn't step up, Don?
It's not exaggeration, this is what Ed is saying and Brett is agreeing with.
You can't just stamp your foot and make the bad posts go away, Don.
Don,
it’s time for the loyal Americans to show up with baseball bats.
That is specifically what Ed said. And Brett doesn't seem to have a problem with it. No gaslighting there.
Even worse, a few of the other crazies seem to endorse the idea, or at least not criticize it.
Nice that you agree the Jan. 6 insurrectionists were terrorists.
They had political goals, and were using violence to try to achieve them. Or are you still claiming that attacking police, breaking down doors and windows, and threatening members of Congress are just things normal tourists do?
"The ones who were trying to oveturn a legitimate election outcome and install their Dear Leader as dictator-for-life?"
THEY did not the outcome legitimate, and please show where they advocated "dictator for life."
What else should we expect from an attempt to install a leader who lost the election?
They genuinely did not believe that he lost.
Personally -- because I know how incompetent -- totally incompetent -- the left usually is, honestly don't know if the won or if it was just a clusterfuck by incompetent leftist unable to run elections in their cities.
But it clearly wasn't a "hands above the table" election.
THEY did not the outcome legitimate,
So they were all psychotic, or else gullible fools? Is that the defense you're offering, Ed? That they were all like you?
No more psychos or gullible fools than Team Hamas.
My priorities can't be obvious to you, asshole, since you seem unable to understand what you read, or even the words you yourself use.
"The protestors themselves implicitly recognize that, since they do not use such tactics to demand divestment from businesses that operate in China, Saudi Arabia, and other countries with far worse human rights records than Israel."
This (and the one sided nature of the demands that you note) is why many people believe these protests are anti-semitic, even if couched as "anti-zionist."
If they did, and they probably do, in fact, oppose those things, none of you would have paid the slightest bit of attention - have any of you even bothered to check?
Out of curiosity, what are the "requisite moral standards" for the killing of a child who has not attained the age of five years? For the killing of a non-ambulatory octogenarian? For the deliberate killing by a soldier of any non-combatant?
Is there any evidence to suggest that "China, Saudi Arabia, and [any] other countries" indeed do "have a far worse human rights records than Israel"? For example, Saudi Arabia has over the past 75 years (and the past 12 months) killed fewer humans than Israel... and this is true of Iran as well. Some (eg Heritage Foundation, Apr 17, 2024, op-ed by Chip Roy... quoting Ze’ev Jabotinsky [ha!]) who forget the Nakba and subsequent Israeli atrocities cry foul at any suggestion of moral bankruptcy; however, Judaism embraces the Lev HaTorah of Leviticus 19:18, with rabis even defining "neighbor." Yet there remain those who cling to the Yiddish definition of goyim (the “other peoples of the world”) which proposes that _any_ non-Jew is dumb, inferior, evil, and worthy of killing! Some (see for example Sagi and Statman 1995) propose that Judaism lacks the divine command morality found in Christianity, Islam, and other religions. Leaving the Euthyphro dilemma for another time, we need only ask "When 2,000 Americans were killed on 9/11, did we kill _all_ Iraqis?" to find moral superiority and moral bankruptcy.
Btw, Jabotinsky founded and headed numerous terrorist groups, including Irgun Tzvai Leumi (I.Z.L), the military arm that fought the enemies of Zionism. In 1920, in what Israelis call the "Passover Pogrom of 1920" and in what the civilized world calls murder by Jew, illegal immigrants to what would become Israel killed a significant number of the non-Jews who opposed their wantonly illegal acts. Jabotinsky was sentenced to 15 years hard labor for his role in the murders, but his sentence was overturned after British Jews rioted with screams falsely claiming anti-Semitism. Sound familiar?? If logic doesn't work, emit a woeful cry of anti-Semitism and blame your enemies! (see https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ze-ev-vladimir-jabotinsky)
Notice how mydisplayname refers to the event as the 1920 passover pogrom, but omits what a pogram means. In this pogram, as in others, there was a riot in which the Arab population was killing Jews and looting and burning Jewish homes and businesses. Whether or not legal, Jobotinsky’s actions at the time were very clearly in the nature of self-defense, protecting Jews from the attack they were under. And this is why he was subsequently exonerated. As the Palin Commission of Inquiry investigating the affair put it, “Savage attacks were made by Arab rioters in Jerusalem against Jewish lives and property.” The Palin Commission exonerated Jabotinsky and concluded his acts of self-defense were reasonable under the circumstances, which led to his pardon.
Several hundred Jews were injured in the pogram while only a handful of Arabs were injured by the self-defense (several on each side were killed). In other words, while an anti-Jewish rioters injured hundreds of Jews, Jabotinsky and his men were attempting to prevent more Jews from being killed with relatively limited force, trying to pick off the ringleaders. In addition, British troops also opened fire. Mydisplayname inexplicably attributes all Arab deaths to Jabotinsky.
Why does Mydisplayname portray Jabotinsky’s reasonable act of self-defense in the face of an armed attack as if it involved Jews unprovokedly wantonly murdering Arabs instead of attempting to defend themselves from armed and attacking Arabs trying to murder Jews?
This complete disregard of the actual historical facts gives his whole modus operandi away. In his world, Jews are not to be permitted to defend themselves. Ever. Any act of self-defense, no matter how justifiable if done by anyone else is to be regarded as murder if done by Jews.
There is no other reasonable way to interpret Mydisplayname’s blatant lies in portraying self-defense from attack as unprovoked murder. If he does this here, and he certainly did, that makes my claim he is doing the same thing regarding Gaza that much more plausible.
This was, of course, precisely the position the Ku Klux Klan took in its propaganda about African-Americans. We are taken to the Ku Klux Klan’s world. In that world, every act of self-defense a Negro ever took against people trying to kill him was uniformly potrayed as an act of unprovoked, savage murder.
Scratch out the word “negro” and write in the word “Jew” in crayon, and we have Mydisplayname’s world. Exactly the same world.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots
Not only is he a raging antisemite who lies about Jews/Israel, but he also feels the need to whitewash Israel's enemies in service of that agenda:
It's like he has never heard of the Iran-Iraq war. Or the various Kurdish rebellions there. Or the civil war in Yemen. (It's hard to allocate responsibility for specific deaths in that messy war, but Saudi Arabia has been an active participant and far more people have died than have died in Gaza.)
Also, I'm a bit puzzled by this part:
Nobody has killed "all" of anyone, so I don't know how this question could show "moral superiority." But we killed _lots_ of Iraqis, who weren't even involved in 9/11. And _lots_ of Afghanis.
Every modern urban battle involves heavy civilian casualties. The West’s war against ISIS leveled cities and and killed tens of thousands of civilians, and nobody blinked. It’s how war is. Hitler’s opponents were not murderers because Hitler chose to hide in a bunker and fight it out rather than surrender. Hamas’ enemies are not mirderers because Hamas has chosen the same path Hitler did.
To say that ordinary acts of self-defense warfare, acts accepted without question as matter of course and routine when done by many other countries in the last century, are suddenly “murder” when done by Israel, is to say that Israel has no right to defend itself.
It’s telling that the same people who regularly claim Israel’s ordinary acts of war are “murder” because civilians are incidentally killed in the course of ordinary acts of war in Hamas’ chosen battlefield, are saying that Hamas’ deliberate targetting and mass murder of civilians was legitimate “armed resistance.”
I wish I could say that it’s time for these bogus bullshit charges to stop.
But I don’t expect it to. Instead, we should recognize that this propaganda is nothing but war by other means. Attempting to discredit and dehumanize ones enemy by making bogus atrocity charges is simply an unconventional act of war, as much an act of unconventional war as deliberately killing ones enemy’s children, as Hamas and only Hamas has done.
We shouldn’t expect Hamas and its shills, like the one I’m replying to, to tell the truth about these things. Their goal is to get people to hate Israel, by any means necessary. After all, Hitler’s propaganda arm regularly made these same charges about the Allies. Why should we expect anything different here?
Can you really expect people who don’t give a shit about deliberately killing children at close range to give a shit about more trivial and less observed traditional rules, like not lying about ones enemy?
China (etc.) has disarmed and subdued its dissidents.
Israel hasn't.
What is “civil disobedience” ? Does it have any recognised boundaries ?
Rioting
Destroying property
Obstructing other people’s movements or access
Ditto using cars, buses, tractors
Calling out the fire department with fake calls
Doxing
Sit ins in other people’s property
Chaining yourself to railings , objects etc
Spray painting graffiti on other people’s things
Spitting in other people’s faces
Drowning out other people
Stealing
Littering
Pointing lasers at peoples faces
and so on ?
What’s in and what’s out ? Force in or out ? Violence ? Coercion ? Deceit (eg fake accusations intended to send the cops round to your opponent)
And is your motive or goal relevant to whether it’s “civil disobedience” ?
"Civil disobedience, the refusal to obey the demands or commands of a government or occupying power, without resorting to violence or active measures of opposition."
This has been another installation of easy answers to silly questions.
So as I understand it, under your definition NONE of the items I listed are “civil disobedience” as they all involve “active measures” of one kind or another ?
So it’s kinda limited to lying in the sack ? So long as it’s your sack.
That's my objection to the above essay: He nowhere attempts to DEFINE "civil disobedience"!
Even if you happen to think that violating the law is appropriate to combat something you think an injustice, (Think John Brown and Harper's Ferry.) not all breaking of laws to combat injustice is "civil disobedience"!
Note that word, "civil"?
Classic civil disobedience is visibly breaking a law you think is unjust, to force the government to publicly enforce it against you, so that the public, seeing that injustice first hand, will join you in opposing the law.
Gandhi making salt by the sea. Rosa Parks sitting in the front of the bus. The Greensboro Four during Jim Crow eating at a lunch counter.
Most of what the above essay describes wouldn't be "civil disobedience" even if the cause were just! It's a different sort of thing.
Modern "uncivil disobedience" normally involves violating laws unrelated to what you're protesting, typically perfectly defensible laws, in order to either get publicity for your unrelated cause, or just cause so much trouble that authorities cave into your demands just to make you stop. It's a completely different phenomenon from civil disobedience, and we shouldn't excuse it in any way.
I'm not sure what laws you're 'allowing' the protesters to break that are directly related to supporting the war in Gaza. if they had draft cards they could burn them, I suppose.
That's kind of the point: Civil disobedience isn't a universally applicable tactic, regardless of the virtue of your cause. It only works where there's a law for you to disobey which is ITSELF morally objectionable.
If you're not violating the very law you're objecting to, you're not engaged in "civil disobedience" regardless of whether you've got a good cause.
Or an evil one, as in this case.
'It only works where there’s a law for you to disobey which is ITSELF morally objectionable.'
That is not, in fact, the only way it works, or has ever been the only way it works.
Yes, this is as evil as those 'pro-Saddam' protests before Iraq.
You can do civil disobedience for a bad cause Brett. Because bad cause is subjective.
Quit delegitimizing stuff you personally disagree with.
Of course you can, in principle. It just won't work well, because its working requires the general public to agree with you that the conduct in question should be lawful.
But you still have to be violating the law that you're protesting, for it to be civil disobedience.
You're creating a fantasy version of civil disobedience, clean and polite and tidy, proscribed by decorum and paradoxically supported by everyone - all of which are the opposite of civil disobedience which by its nature is loud and assertive and often messy and performed in the face of ferocious opposition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05xJk9CnoRI
Alwaays criticism. Never positive suggestions. Good training for a bureaucrat always to say "no." That is the safe option.
Case. By. Case.
I don't pretend to have the specific facts enough to know what to do in each instance.
You do, which is not great.
This has little to do with my job other than I talk to people who are wrangling undergrads sometimes about said wrangling.
"You do, which is not great"
My reading plus lies. That's just your style.
What is wrong with handling things on a case by case basis, Don?
What wrong is not having principle to base your decision making on.
"Quit delegitimizing stuff you personally disagree with."
You're asking him to ... quit delegitimizing civil disobedience?
The only time civil disobedience is arguably legitimate is when the injustice of the law outweighs the harm in breaking it. Which is subjective.
Civil disobedience is a method of getting policy changed when you don't have the votes. Like it or not, it's a legitimate method.
You can go after the ends, but the ends being bad doesn't retroactively render the means illegitimate.
IOW, you don't get to argue "I disagree with you so now what you're doing is out of bounds." Viewpoint doesn't have a track into procedure/method.
"Civil disobedience is a method of getting policy changed when you don’t have the votes. Like it or not, it’s a legitimate method."
It's literally illegitimate by definition. Do you think it's legitimate to form a human chain around a polling place to prevent black people from voting?
I mean there are some subjective senses of the term "legitimate" where you can say that civil disobedience in furtherance of a just cause is legitimate.
There is no objective sense of the term "legitimate" where you can say that civil disobedience is legitimate.
You are confusing illegal and illegitimate.
America has really embraced a lot of MLK's creed including what an unjust law is.
There is no objective sense of the term “legitimate” where you can say that civil disobedience is legitimate.
Legitimate is like obscene. Neither is purely each persons' idiosyncratic judgment, but neither is it some neverchaning objective bright line.
There are lots of concepts like that - based on some silent community consensus.
He probably thinks it’s perfectly fine to surround polling place armed to the teeth and threaten white people as the Black Panthers did during the Obama election.
"You are confusing illegal and illegitimate."
The dictionary says they're synonyms.
"There are lots of concepts like that – based on some silent community consensus."
You're claiming that there's a silent community consensus that says it's OK to form a human chain around polling places to prevent black people from voting? I don't know what bizarre community you live in, but I can assure you that that's not the case in my community.
...but 1/6 protesters are terrorists.
Got it.
Seems completely consistent.
"I’m not sure what laws you’re ‘allowing’ the protesters to break that are directly related to supporting the war in Gaza. if they had draft cards they could burn them, I suppose."
They could refuse to pay taxes to support the war.
Now, actual civil disobedience has a good name, and deservedly so, because the people we read about in the history books engaging in it were doing so in noble causes, which usually eventually triumphed.
I can't off hand think of anybody who is known for engaging in classical civil disobedience in a shitty cause. And the people who engaged in uncivil disobedience in a noble cause, such as the above John Brown, are not fondly remembered.
I don't think that's any sort of accident.
Civil disobedience works because it embodies a virtuous positive feedback: People acting in an admirable and upright fashion ennoble a cause, and the nobility of their cause reflects well on them.
If either the cause or the behavior is publicly objectionable, the loop is broken, and it doesn't work.
Now, in the immediate instance both the cause AND the behavior are shitty, so if anything the loop runs backwards; The horrible nature of the cause makes the protesters look worse, and their horrible behavior makes the cause look worse. (Granted, not a lot of room on that latter metric for things to get worse.)
So, this protest simply can't work as 'civil disobedience', if it's to work, it must be as extortion. But the inverted loop makes it hard for it to even work that way, public opinion would turn on any school that actually gave in to their demands!
Anyway, bottom line: Calling what these protestors were doing 'civil disobedience' is just fundamentally mistaken. It's actually the opposite of civil disobedience.
‘Civil disobedience works because it embodies a virtuous positive feedback: People acting in an admirable and upright fashion ennoble a cause, and the nobility of their cause reflects well on them.’
This is a retroactive gloss. Contemporaneously opponents to the activists made exactly the same or similar complaints as you are making now. You think all the civil rights activists consistently acted in ways considered admirable and upright? Every law broken, every fight that broke out, every act of vandalism, every drug bust, every personal transgression was used against them, too.
When those practicing civil disobedience in the civil rights era refrained from transgressions, fictional transgressions were supplied. That is also happening in these encampment controversies.
Nige beat me to it.
Brett wants to claim that civil disobedience is wonderful in a just cause, like the civil rights movement, and that everyone celebrates that. That there was universal agreement.
Load of crap. There was, at the time, massive criticism of the tactic, and the movement, coming not just from Klansmen and the like, but from the "respectable right." You know, the Buckley segregationists and so on.
"I can’t off hand think of anybody who is known for engaging in classical civil disobedience in a shitty cause."
I can -- the German-American Bund supporting Hitler during WWII.
Perhaps also the KKK during the 1920s -- it was the personal (domestic) violence of its leader that caused it to implode..
The Tulsa Massacre of 1921 occurred during the 1920s. Not exactly people’s idea of what’s meant by “civil disobedience.”
Of course, if you update the terminology and call it e.g. the “Tulsa decolonialization,” then maybe it was.
It’s certainly the case that many Southern segregationists simply refused to apply or follow law inconsistent with their cause. The case of the postmaster who simply refused to receive or deliver any mail to or from the houses of Negros filing lawsuits, skipping their houses as if they didn’t exist, comes to mind. But “civil” implies a rejection of violence. And that they certainly didn’t do.
What was the name of that farmer guy who refused to take his cattle off government land? The one with the big armed stand-off? What about the anti-vaxx trucker convoy? I suppose anti-abortion demonstraters and those fucks who picket gay peoples' funerals (do they still do that?) don't qualify as civil disobedience per se, just uncivil, but still, demonstrations for shitty causes.
Bundy. Arguably civil disobedience, until the armed part, at which point definitely not.
I don't see how trucker conveys can be civil disobedience unless they're protesting traffic laws.
Civil disobedience isn't actually all that common these days, because things have actually improved a lot, there aren't as many laws it's applicable to.
In any other country the presence of guns would preclude civil disobedience. Since guns are legal in the US their presence doesn't signify anything, other than macho stupidity and quasi-paramilitary posturing. And I'm saying this as someone who loathes the Bundys and thinks being heavily armed at a demo is inherently and deliberately intimidating.
The convoy more or less occupied a city for a few weeks. The air and noise pollution did more damage than any of the anti-war protests.
'because things have actually improved a lot,'
There's still war.
"The convoy more or less occupied a city for a few weeks. The air and noise pollution did more damage than any of the anti-war protests."
But the trucker's weren't protesting traffic laws so they don't fall under Brett's definition of civil disobedience.
Brett’s definition of civil disobedience.
Hmmmm.
Brett's using "civil disobedience" to refer exclusively to what's usually defined as "direct civil disobedience". In my experience it's not an uncommon use.
Yes. Bundy. A deadbeat, idiot, and right-wing hero.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War
.
Your applause for the widespread, sustained killing of children by a bunch of superstitious, bigoted, violent right-wing assholes from Israel is entirely in keeping with your affinity for superstitious, bigoted, right-wing assholes in the United States, Mr. Bellmore.
I blame your antisocial nature, your conservatism, your bigotry, your autism, and your disaffectedness.
Brett, Dr. King couldn't have written letters from the Birmingham Jail if he hadn't been IN the Birmingham Jail....
They were willing to do time in jail -- these folks aren't.
Civil disobedience takes many forms, obviously, and is a longstanding way for the public to object to government policies. By its namture it is disruptive and disregards certain laws and rules of behaviour. Obviously this is unpleasant for the people directly affected but not involved. But if you seek deprive people of the ability, or the 'right,' to engage in civil disobedience, you're probably an oppressive regime.
Every second amendment supporter implicitly, and plenty do so explicitly, supports violent insurrection.
That’s my point: No, “civil disobedience” doesn’t actually take many forms. It’s actually a very specific subset of protest, with limited application, for all that it’s powerful where it is applicable.
Not every case of breaking a law to advance a cause is “civil disobedience”. Most aren’t, actually.
2nd amendment activists do engage in civil disobedience from time to time, peacefully publicly violating gun laws. But violent insurrection, even if justified, isn't civil disobedience.
'Not every case of breaking a law to advance a cause is “civil disobedience”. Most aren’t, actually.'
So long as they are non-violent, they absolutely are and always have been.
'But violent insurrection, even if justified, isn’t civil disobedience.'
Well quite. You fundamentally advocate something far more extreme and intrinsically violent while trying to impose a personal and ahistorical defintion of civil disobedience shared by absolutely nobody else.
Stealing stuff is non-violent, but almost never civil disobedience. Graffiti, fraud, tax evasion, prison breaks -- the list goes on. Civil disobedience involves protesting unjust authority by forcing it to either back down or use force, and these campus terrorists aren't doing that. They're imposing their own unjust authority by force.
I'm sorry, all that stuff is non-violent - maybe not the prison break, when was there a prison break? The greatest risk they're imposing is to their own person and their own bodies. Hundreds have had the cops sicced on them and been arrested. The protest is them putting themselves on the line, but not meekly and deferentially.
You are redefining a term to say that it only counts if you like it, and also it’s always good
Intentional nonviolent lawbreaking to bring about change is civil disobedience.
The change desired can be bad or stupid, the lawbreaking can be awful or immoral. The effort can succeed or fail.
You are universalizing a moral charge that is cultural not definitional and it’s taking you to a weird overdetermined place.
Gaslight0 accuses another of redefining a term just before he attempts to do so. News at 11.
You gonna actually say where you disagree with me or just gonna flounce and flounce?
He's just doing what you always do. You were a good mentor.
Bottom of the barell comment, Don.
Don't let your anger at me make you choose to add more heat than light to these threads. We got plenty of shitheads here already.
Look at Sarcastro defending his turf.
Brett -- remember the "empty holster" protest on college campi -- this would likely be 15 years ago now, but here is FIRE describing one such protest: https://www.thefire.org/news/tarrant-county-college-update-empty-holster-protest-held-trial-delayed
They peacefully wore a visibly empty holster -- a piece of leather or nylon that wasn't bothering anyone. They didn't interfere with the rights of anyone else, they weren't making noise, they just had a piece of leather hanging from their belt.
Basically everyone involved seems to have a slightly exaggerated sense of their own involvement. Nothing that happens on a US college campus will make the slightest bit of difference for Gaza, so the students might as well go back to class, and the reactionaries might as well find some other stick to beat the left with.
"Nothing that happens on a US college campus will make the slightest bit of difference for Gaza"
Thank you, Martin. Well said.
Just as nothing that happens on an American college campus is going to save Israel's disgusting right-wing belligerents from the consequences of their deplorable conduct.
"students" vs "reactionaries".
A large fraction of the demonstrators are not students. You should know better, but you apparently want to look like a stooge.
They're crisis actors!
A large fraction of the demonstrators are not students
What difference does that make? They're still idiots, and they still have the same first amendment rights.
'Large fraction' is like nearly 3/4 at Columbia.
You're just waiving your hands.
Hand waiving is for the birds!
Reverse ratio. Large fraction is only a bit over 1/4.
"is like nearly 3/4 at Columbia. "
Columbia has more than 36,000 students. Yet you claim that nearly 27,000 are protesting. More dishonesty, your perpetual habit.
From above in this thread: “A large fraction of the demonstrators”.
Don’t make shitty accusations based on rage-induced illiteracy.
A large fraction of the demonstrators are not students.
You have no fucking idea about that. You are just spreading BS. Stop acting like you know shit you don't know.
Yes I also remember being 19. The world absolutely revolved around me and I had lots of righteous fire and what was definitely wisdom.
Those talking zero tolerance or insisting force to teach these people a lesson or violent mob time are missing who these people are and the scope of what they are doing versus what they think they are doing.
Not that this isn’t serious but this too shall pass.
I remember being 19. I spent my time studying, I was carrying nearly 25 credit hours.
I have plenty of tolerance for people right up until they cross the line, but I see no reason at all to tolerate them when they've crossed the line into illegal conduct.
And doing it to support terrorists doesn't help their case any.
I also had less fun than many in college (seen in retrospect). But I do remember being a kid.
You still have a lot of that pseudo-solipsistic hubris in you to this day, come to think of it.
"I had lots of righteous fire and what was definitely wisdom."
And clearly, you still think that, but are afraid to recommend positive actions.
I say case-by-case, and that forceful removal is not always the answer (and provide examples of when discussion has worked).
You don't see that as recommended positive actions because you're stuck on forceful removal in every instance.
You are being shallow and reactionary, and insist everyone else must be the same or they're...cowards? Silly.
"because you’re stuck on forceful removal in every instance"
More made-up BS, just like all of your replies.
But you are just a dupe of Hamas propaganda; so maybe you should be excused
-You call me out for not having a blanket solution.
-You advocate for force as a solution.
You deny that you’re stuck on forceful removal in every instance.
Seems to me you're not being consistent with yourself, Don.
you are just a dupe of Hamas propaganda; so maybe you should be excused
Well, this is also telling.
I have never recommended force as a solution despite your dishonesty about it. eI do think graded discipline early in the process avoid explosive situations. That is case by case. Drawing red lines that one is afraid to act on is at best stupid.
Again, you complain when I say case by case.
The only alternative is one blanket solution.
You have endorsed force in every situation in which you have opined, and found the times when the situation was resolved without force to be wanting.
Thus, it is hard to escape the notion that blanket use of force is your preferred solution.
Which of these facts/final inference is incorrect?
If you don’t realize that the unrest is the result of a highly successful, well financed propaganda campaign by HAMAS, you have not been paying attention and if you believe that propaganda campaign, yes, you are being a dupe of terrorists enemies of your country.
highly successful, well financed propaganda campaign by HAMAS
Free Palestine has been a thing since before Hamas.
Hamas is your SOROS.
How blind you are.
How many dead Palestinian children will it take to satisfy the right-wing bloodlust of Don Nico?
Your god is a shitty moral example.
Sarcarsto, why weren't you saying that 20 years ago.
Martinned2, you seem to assume that either U.S. foreign policy is immaterial to outcomes in Gaza, or that campus activities in the U.S. are powerless to affect U.S. foreign policy.
History is against you on the latter. I question the logic of the former.
SL,
Martin never claimed the former. And HAMAS inspired protests would have no effect on Old Joe, except for Dearborn MI.