The Volokh Conspiracy
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Student Movements Are Often Wrong
We shouldn't assume that student political movements necessarily have a just cause. Far from it.

A recent viral tweet (it has 8.6 million views) inspired by controversy over anti-Israel activism on college campuses asserts that "[a] good law of history is that if you ever find yourself opposing a student movement while siding with the ruling class, you are wrong. Every single time. In every era. No matter the issue." Most admirers of student political activism don't go so far as to say student movements are always in the right. Still, the belief that student activists have some special claim to moral authority is nonetheless a common one. Aren't smart, idealistic students at least likely to be right most of the time?
Sadly, the answer is "no." As Rick Hess of the American Enterprise Institute points out, there is a long history of student movements embracing awful causes and tactics:
[L]et's tally some of the "student movements" that have been a source of (mostly authoritarian) misery, mayhem, and murder over time. In every era. And no matter the issue.
There was the student movement that helped establish Fidel Castro's oppressive regime in Cuba. In 1957, the Revolutionary Directorate, an insurrectionist organization that drew heavily upon students, mounted a bloody attack on the presidential residence during which dozens were killed. Students served as a vanguard for Castro's regime as it wantonly arrested, tortured, reeducated, and murdered those deemed suspect.
There was the Marxist-shaded Iranian student movement that helped bring Ayatollah Khomeini to power, occupied and seized hostages at the US embassy in Tehran, and fueled the rise of religious fanaticism. Ironically, for the students, one of the first actions Khomeini took was to "Islamize" universities as part of a Cultural Revolution, which involved purging Marxist and secular books and professors.
There were Mao Zedong's Red Guards, the student-led paramilitary that loomed so large in China's Cultural Revolution, who helped to round up, attack, imprison, and murder millions of "counter-revolutionaries." Impassioned students helped liquidate Mao's rivals while demanding lockstep obeisance from petty officials, educators, scientists, and educated professionals—all conveniently dismissed as members of the "ruling class."
There was Daniel Cohn-Bendit ("Danny the Red") and the French student strike of May 1968, which raised justifiable concerns of civil war. This led to street battles in Paris, the retreat of French president Charles de Gaulle to West Germany, moments when it appeared Soviet sympathizers would overthrow France's democratic government, and de Gaulle's ultimate dissolution of the National Assembly.
Then, of course, there were the US student strikes of the 1960s. While the intimidation of campus leaders, building occupations, violence, and revolutionary cosplay have somehow gained a romantic edge, the institutional destruction wrought by these protestors is perhaps best captured by recalling Mark Rudd's 1968 letter to the president of Columbia: "Up against the wall mother—–, this is a stick-up."
This list can easily be extended. The Nazis were backed by a large and active student movement - the National Socialist German Student League. When it was formed in 1926, it was most certainly opposed to the German "ruling class" of the Weimar Republic.
In the 1960s, many white students at schools like the University of Alabama opposed desegregation and some mobilized to try to stop it. They saw themselves as opposing the overbearing power of the federal government, and the "ruling class" in Washington.
The student anti-war movement of the Vietnam era is often seen as obviously in the right. But US withdrawal from Indochina led to establishment of a brutal totalitarian regime in South Vietnam, and to the horrific Khmer Rouge "killing fields" in Cambodia - one of the worst mass murders in world history. Hundreds of thousands of "boat people" fled Vietnam and Cambodia after the communists triumphed, creating a massive refugee crisis. The evidence of people voting with their feet is a powerful indicator of which side in a conflict is worse. In this case, the communists were vastly more oppressive than the US-supported governments in South Vietnam and Cambodia, despite the serious flaws of the latter. Student activists who failed to see that were badly misguided.
One could still make a strong argument that the war wasn't worth it from the standpoint of America's narrow self-interest. But many student activists went far beyond that, and claimed that a communist victory would actually be a good thing. They could not have been more wrong.
Obviously, student activists aren't always in the wrong. In the 1960s, those who opposed racism and segregation were very much in the right. In more recent years, student activists were right to support same-sex marriage, and oppose racial profiling by law enforcement. And, if student activists often go wrong, the same is true of political activism by older people. The age of people supporting a cause is rarely a strong indicator of its validity.
There are, however, some systematic reasons to view student movements with a degree of skepticism. One is that younger, people, on average, have lower levels of political knowledge than older voters. In most situations, ignorance increases the chance of being wrong.
Students, on average, have higher levels of political knowledge than people who don't go to college. But they are still likely to be less knowledgeable - again, on average - than older college graduates. Recent survey data reveals widespread ignorance among students about the basic facts of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Committed activists are likely to be more knowledgeable than the average student; they probably spend more time studying the issue in question. But activists with strong views are also disproportionately likely to suffer from "rational irrationality" - the tendency to be highly biased in evaluation of political information. Political activists of all ages are disproportionately likely to be highly biased "political fans" who overvalue anything that supports their preexisting views, while downplaying or ignoring contrary evidence.
None of this proves that student movements are necessarily wrong about any given issue, or even that they are generally more likely to be wrong than movements dominated by older people. The point is not that we should reflexively reject student movements' positions, but that we should not give them any special credence. That holds true for other political movements, as well.
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“Student Movements Are Often Wrong”
The fledgling bigots of campus Federalist Society chapters.
The aspiring culture war roadkill of the Young Republicans.
The students who support Israel’s depraved and doomed conduct.
The societal rejects of Turning Point USA.
The xenophobic misfits of separatist conservative publications on some campuses.
The awkward malcontents of the Leadership Institute’s groups.
The superstitious gay-bashers of campus religious groups.
I see your point, professor.
You just have to be someone's spot-on parody of a certain kind of knee-jerk leftist, Artie. Brilliant, Mr. Parodist, whoever you are!
Get bac to e when bodies start piling up lie from the groups listed in the OP. Until then your comparison is laughable.
Having had to prevent a couple of suicides caused by the Young Republicans, I am not a fan of them.
Way to miss the point.
OH yeah! The massive numbers of conservative kids are shutting down campuses everywhere
Student protests aren't shutting down campuses in most cases -- elected officials, school administrators, and police are, often with respect to peaceful demonstrations of objection to American complicity in unjustified killings.
District of Columbia police, for example, reportedly refused to arrest protesters today despite request from school administrators to roust peaceful protesters.
Texas' governor, meanwhile, scored political points with right-wing assholes nationwide by sending state troopers after peaceful protestors.
That anyone who supports Israel believes these developments are not going to accelerate Israel's loss of American subsidies is inexplicable.
Conservative students invite Milo Y or Ann Coulter then cry havoc when they're criticised for their objectionable views. Edgelords is all they are.
The left CREATED Coulter -- she was a boring but sane speaker in the '90s.
She didn't start churning out the hate to appeal to anyone but the right.
No, people who invite conservative speakers complain when they are assaulted by entitled twats and thus deprived of their right to speak.
Everyone complains when they’re assaulted. Conservatives complain when they’re not given the intellectual, moral and cultural deference they feel they're entitled to, while being shitty edgelords.
Some conservatives whine for years. Some are so disaffected they blog about it daily.
When you molest little boys, how long do you last?
Hey! EV said no talking about the "Reverend"'s Sexual Pre-Versions!
He doesn’t give a damn about what you write about me. He censors those who make fun of or criticize conservatives, not those who call for liberals to be exterminated.
.
If so, why do you associate with so many right-wing bigots (racists, superstitious gay-bashers, immigrant-hating jerks, Islamophobes, antisemites, old-timey misogynists, disgusting transphobes, etc.), professor?
It is going to be difficult for the Jew-hating racists in this blog to hide their tumescense at the sight of that Nazi war poster
Who do you think is more likely to support Putler?
Not supporting trillions for a Mediocre You-Cranian Actor isn't supporting Putin. Who's gonna be left to fight for You-Crane in another few years? Roosh-uns play the long game, by their clock it's only September 1943, and the Germans were alot more capable than the You-Cranes
Hople, photoshop out the swastikas and update the style of his shirt and you have a J Crew ad. Think about that....
Hugo Boss got his big break making uniforms for the Nazis.
https://a.1stdibscdn.com/1970s-soviet-union-propoganda-poster-for-sale/1121189/f_194229621592005788182/19422962_master.jpg?disable=upscale&auto=webp&quality=60&width=800
plus ça change
It is not a war poster. It is a recruiting poster for the Nazi Student League.
In the 1960s, many white students at schools like the University of Alabama opposed desegregation and some mobilized to try to stop it. They saw themselves as opposing the overbearing power of the federal government, and the "ruling class" in Washington.
While many of your examples are fine this is laughable. Some students certainly opposed desegregation, but to the extent there were pro-segregation student demonstrations, which wasn't very far, they were overwhelmed by civil rights demonstrations. And the segregationist students were very much on the side of the "ruling class," from their POV.
He said schools *like the University of Alabama.*
Which would include the University of Mississippi –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Miss_riot_of_1962
Many rioters were students, though they were joined by a lot of outsiders.
and now it's the Ivy League/Northern Universities with Segregated Dorms, what "Progress"!!
Frank "Where's the "Crackers Only" restroom?"
In the 1950s, Stalin shamed the Japanese Communist Party for only peacefully protesting. In response, the JCP began organizing violent protests and guerilla squads, composed partially of student orgs, to begin a civil war. Thankfully that never came, but it dashed the hopes of the left for the next decade and the initial period of LDP dominance.
The "New Left" was committed to peaceful action, but further left Japanese student protests in the late 1960s became violent even while the orgs leading it maintained that they had no concrete goals. They managed to destroy the aspirations of future leftists, leading to near-continuous dominance of the LDP in politics.
There were also sporadic smaller protests by students that turned violent; Japan then was a different place.
I agree with many LDP policies but the nearly one-party rule has made politics nepotistic and corrupt. It would be good for the LDP to have meaningful competition but violent Marxists decades ago have prevented that from happening.
If a student group is championing the cause of people that raped women to death and cooked babies in ovens, it's JUST possible that they're on the wrong side. Possibly. Maybe.
People who support Hamas are depraved assholes and despicable losers..
People who support Israel's right-wing government are despicable losers and depraved assholes.
Do you just hate everyone? It is okay, I have a long list of people I hate also.
It's as if the hate is the only emotion keeping him going.
Weird.
It's like you don't know what a moral compass is. Probably think it's an actual magical compass that will tell you the difference between right and wrong.
Hamas and people who support Israel's bigoted, murderous right-wing government are a bit short of "everyone."
Again, I defer to your extensive experience with assholes
They seem pretty determined to be on the wrong side: https://nypost.com/2024/04/26/us-news/protester-with-final-solution-sign-that-threatens-extermination-of-jews-spotted-at-gwu/
What's more important? Thousands and thousands objecting to a war, many of them Jews, or one anti-semite on the fringes? Those swastikas appearing at that big right-wing truck convoy protest didn't stop anyone from supporting it.
He's not in the fringe, you kook, he's one of the leaders. Lots of the sheep in his movement are quite vocal about mass murder of Jews, like the guy at Columbia who called for more October 7-like attacks: "That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1000 more times, but 10,000 times!"
All the people joining hands with that type are important. They're busy declaring "we are all Hamas!" when they should know better.
You are nutpicking.
Yawn. That's your go-to excuse for ignoring all the blatantly hateful speech and egregious behavior on your side. It's an especially hollow claim in response to me pointing out that the quote I led with was from one of the leaders of a protest. It's not like "from the river to the sea" (Israel must be destroyed and Jews ethnically cleaned from the entire Middle East) is a fringe chant, or blocking people from campus is an isolated activity by a few randos, or other people at Columbia weren't shouting "The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" at Jewish students.
If you think I'm nutpicking, you must live in an almond orchard.
If someone were saying there are no antisemites in the protests, you'd have a point pointing to one dude.
No one is saying that.
Instead, in response to: "Thousands and thousands objecting to a war, many of them Jews, or one anti-semite on the fringes" you point to one anti-semite on the fringes. Oh, wait you had a second quote. From the same sources. So 2 people.
I heard one story about physically blocking people from getting to class, so...yes? That is also nutpicking.
You attempt to make an utterly separate argument after your nupicked a bunch about what exactly "from the river to the sea" means. Plenty of churn on that front but you're just making shit up with this overdetermined shit: : "Israel must be destroyed and Jews ethnically cleaned from the entire Middle East."
Again, your partisan bullshit does not help the real problem on campuses, which is real. You don't actually care about that, just attacking the left. You should broaden your hobbies.
You should try being half so angry about the genocidally antisemitic crowds on college campuses as you are about my comments. You are way blinkered, and you're projecting your partisan bias onto me.
Your tolerance of -- maybe make that lust for -- slaughtered Palestinian innocents (thousands of children) is roughly what I would expect of a Volokh Conspiracy fan.
You get to have all of the bigoted, stale, perhaps even superstitious thinking you wish to have, and you get to complain about all of this damned progress as much as you like, but you will spend the rest of your life complying with the preferences of better Americans. Losing a culture war -- because of your weak, ugly thinking -- has consequences.
You should try not excusing your fallacious arguments with 'well I'm on the side of righteousness.'
I think you're part of the "Jewish space lasers" and "Jews will not replace us" crowd, Michael P.
Related: https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1784041854880927929
Some Muslims are bigots with respect to women and gays. Religious fundamentalists of essentially all flavors tend to be disgusting bigots.
What is your take on Israel's longstanding record with respect to women (not this bus!), gays (no marriage for you!), non-Jews (no marriage for you, either!), Muslims (some religious sites and religious visitors are more equal than others!), Blacks and Arabs (<a href=sounds like the American south -- and that is before we discuss the West Bank), etc.?
Have any good memes along that line, clinger?
Northeastern U seems to be picking its own nuts: https://twitter.com/Northeastern/status/1784192555670020555
I'm sure he's HUGELY prominent, and ANSWER was organising all the anti-war protests in the 2000s.
WTF?
You know zip about this guy, including whether he has anything to do with GWU, yet suddenly "he’s one of the leaders."
Fuck off.
What's important are the victims, which are the students being threatened as they try to go about their lives.
I think the real victims might be all the people dying in the conflict in Gaza.
'Objectively pro-Saddam.'
I’m reminded of a cartoon after the (brutally crushed) 1989 Tienanmen Square protests that actually managed to be funny. Deng, flanked by men with machine guns, standing in front of a huge pile of corpses, is addressing a crowd of frightened Chinese. “And one more thing . . . no more student loans!!“
Yes, why have we forgotten Tienanmen Square?
We haven't. Your guy:
“When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it,” Trump said. “Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength. That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak.”
And Abbott appears to have heard Trump as is responding accordingly. It's more important to be "strong" than right, to these guys.
Happily, the mute feature keeps the puerile comments of the board's NPC hidden.
:-0)
The wisdom of young hornet people away from home for the first time?
Everyone says it’s at the maximum then and it’s all downhill from there.
Brave of Prof. Somin to speak against this seemingly unassailable universal assumption.
Young Hornet people? No wonder the police Raid them.
Tablet posting can take you to some awesome places.
Most of the cited student movements were, in fact, successful. So those who opposed them were wrong in the only sense that history can know: they were unsuccessful. There may be some eternal judge who operates according to different standards, but I have never heard any Conspirator suggest that. In any case, it would require considerable analysis, not provided by Prof. Somin, to demonstrate that proposition.
So in general, I have to say, by historical standards, Israel is clearly “wrong” and may not survive much longer than some of the other institutions he mentions which went down before student-supported movements. This will be sad for the friends of Israel, but history is definitely not moved by tears nor by justice.
"Were" is the keyword and might still be too generous. The Cuban and Iranian revolutionary states still exist, but the Cultural Revolution faltered after a few years before being repudiated and the French students only succeeded in getting rid of de Gaulle for a short time. From Somin's examples, the Nazis and segregationists also failed over time.
An interesting student movement that succeeded, then failed, then succeeded again is the Taliban. Jihadists in the Middle East are often drawn from Islamic school graduates.
(1) Around 2003, Pakistan had a wave of protests by law students. At that time, such protests in Western Europe usually favored human-rights or pacifist issues. In Pakistan, however, they demanded tightening of already ferocious Islamist laws. The analogy to Hitler Youth was obvious...
(2) In some parts of the Islamic World, military dictators were the closest you could get to liberals.
(3) In a recent google of student protests in Pakistan, however, I find that most of the protests are for more savory causes.
Being successful, of course, doesn’t make anything ‘right.’ All those successful ‘bad’ movements were not student-led by any stretch of the imagination, though the point stands.
History is written by the winners, who declare that what they believe is "right." A materialist can know no other definition of right, and I never heard Prof. Somin propound a belief in an immaterial Supreme Judge who maintains some other standard.
Is that another conservative vote for silly superstition and childish nonsense?
It’s funny, Mao won, we all know he was evil and his movement was evil. Stalin won, and we all know he was evil and his reign was evil. Castro won, and we know he was a nasty tinpot dictator. Trump won, and no amount of his supporters rewriting history will make him a good president, or a good person. People overstate this ‘written by the winners’ thing, it seems to me. You might just need a crutch to judge good and evil.
History is written by the winners, WHERE they are the winners. I'm guessing you don't live in Russia, China, or even Cuba.
That maxim is largely true, but facts do have some power.
Go hard enough with the nationalist propaganda, you get brittle. The USSR learned that. China doesn't seem to feel like winners these days either.
Last year p2022], a video went viral in China showing a young man who refused to be taken into a quarantine camp being warned by police that his punishment would affect his family for three generations. He coolly retorted: “We are the last generation, thank you.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/20/the-last-generation-young-chinese-people-vow-not-to-have-children
Any reading I've done about those places suggests the populaces know way more than the authorities prefer them to. The Stalin-era jokes alone are the very stuff of undermining the winners' writings.
The problem is defining what one means by right or wrong. I suspect that the people who believe that, mean that student movements are almost always identifying genuine social problems that need addressing not that they always lead to the optimal outcomes.
Basically, these people implicitly feel that what's important about a movement is having the right kind of concerns and emotions and that opposing student movements, no matter if it leads to better outcomes, makes you a bad and heartless sort of person.
I very much dislike that approach to the world.
student movements are almost always identifying genuine social problems
This did stick out to me regarding most of the examples.
these people implicitly feel that what’s important about a movement is having the right kind of concerns and emotions and that opposing student movements, no matter if it leads to better outcomes, makes you a bad and heartless sort of person
But that's not my take-away. Sure. It's probably true for a small minority of people. A larger portion, probably the majority of people who feel as you describe don't actually think about the practical consequences.
My take-away: There is often a genuine social issue about which the students are generally right, however, the zeal of students who tend to be more idealistic and less practical can often result in or, more often, be usurped by others who direct their energy into really bad policies. (Or really good policies, like desegregation, etc.). I think this is the big danger of these movements, that they, being younger and so less chastened by age and a history of mistakes, lean into more puritanical views instead of more nuanced views.
In this last way, they are like many commenters here who, if you aren't wholly supportive of the IDF are, necessarily, an antisemitic Hamas supporter.
*And, of course, these are generalizations based on my perceptions today. There are plenty of thoughtful students with nuanced and even wise views, but I think more often, too often, they latch onto the one good idea and run with it in ways they shouldn't.
Students are, by definition, ignorant (lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated. - Oxford English Dictionary). Listening to their thoughts is to listen to fools.
Why give them any credence at all? They are in school to learn: They should STFU and learn. Not parade their ignorance for one and all to see.
And as a three-time alumnus of UCLA (undergrad, MBA, Medical School) I'm saddened to see they support terrorists, but not me. No more donations to the alumni fundraisers.
They are in school to learn: They should STFU and learn
Don't be so narrow about what learning includes.
This whole thing is gonna teach a lot of lessons on a lot of campuses.
There's talk that Trump may even win New York, and such a landslide would also bring a MAGA Congress with it.
Remember the "Drug Free Schools Act"?
I'm thinking a "Hamas Free Schools Act."
I'm not just thinking financial aid but the institutions themselves (K-12 & HE) who receive Federal $$$ -- a ban on the institution suffering such persons, including as employees (e.g. faculty).
If you offered a hearing, could such a ban include anyone *arrested* even if the charges were dropped? How about participated in an illegal assembly?
There’s talk that Trump may even win New York
I'm mildly (very mildly) libertarian in spirit, but I'm beginning to think the "Drug Free Internet Posting Act" may not be such a bad idea.
The only such "talk" comes from Donald Trump himself. Note that he said the same thing in 2016 and 2020.
(Of course, he may just declare that he did win NY, regardless of the votes.)
"45" won New York if you don't count the 5 Boroughs, as no true New Yawker says they're from "New York", they're from The Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Long Goy-land, Staten Island
Amazing thing is he won Suffolk County 381,253 to 381,021, and got more votes in New York State than Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana combined, "Klingers" indeed!
Frank
"It only took me 4 adult years to figure out a better way, and you couldn't do that in your 40."
No false confidence. No deficit of experience. No lack of self awareness. Just pure...uhhh....yeah...no...STFU.
(I mean, I listen, but seriously, they should do themselves a favor with a lot more STFU. Ignorance doesn't show well.)
Huh. If anyone told Trump to STFU it'd be a hate crime.
Why didn’t you attend a single right-wing school?
Some wingnuts are all talk.
Why give them any credence at all? They are in school to learn: They should STFU and learn. Not parade their ignorance for one and all to see.
Tell me you’re really old and cranky without using the words old and cranky.
I don't think Nazi youth groups fostered by state policy are examples to illustrate the pros and cons of student groups more generally. The OP is pretty heavily loaded with similar cat's paw extensions of institutionalized power into youth culture. That may be a genuinely sinister tendency, but I don't see it as a particularly youthful tendency. More the opposite.
I would be more interested to consider examples of grass roots movements mostly created by students (or other non-student youths) themselves.
The point is that the Nazi youth groups weren't originally encouraged by the state; it was exactly the opposite. They were banned along with the Nazis early on and only later permitted but suppressed (alongside other totalitarian youth groups).
Were the Nazi youth groups originally fostered by the Nazi party? If so, it's a distinction without a difference with regard to the substance of my comment. That had to do with questioning the "youth-groupiness" of organizations founded and promoted by adults, and especially those founded for the purpose of accessing at an early age would-be adult recruits while they are still children.
...the substance of my comment. That had to do with questioning the “youth-groupiness” of organizations founded and promoted by adults
We were fooled by your "fostered by state policy" thing. I certainly never connected that with the youth wing of a political party committed to overthrowing the existing state, which managed to get itself banned for attempting said overthrow. My bad.
Incidentally politically aligned youth groups were common in Weimar Germany - lots of people had them.
Stephen, you don't honestly think Team Hamas is independent of state policy, do you?
Your (sole) example of "widespread ignorance among students about the basic facts of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" is the dispute over the phrase "From the river to the see"?
Ignorance (or malice) would describe anyone who demands a ceasefire without freeing (or accounting for) the hostages.
Yes, let us begin with IRGUN AND LEHI (see more at https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/terror-out-zion-irgun-zvai-leumi-lehi-and-palestine-underground) and continue from there. The evil of the Ashkenazim of Israel indeed should not be swept under the rug and forgotten!
"To turn the other cheek is not a Jewish concept. Do not listen to the soothing anesthesia of the establishment. They walk in the paths of those whose timidity helped bury our brothers and sisters less than thirty years ago."
"[I]n the end — with few exceptions — the Jew can look to no one but another Jew for help and … the true solution to the Jewish problem is the liquidation of the Exile and the return of all Jews to Eretz Yisroel — the land of Israel."
Those who target "diplomats of all nations who had voted for a U.N. resolution equating Zionism with racism" are certainly not role models; in fact, they are spreaders of evil.
Those who hail as "a preventative measure against yet another Arab attack on Jews" Baruch Goldstein's massacre of 29 Palestinian Muslims kneeling in prayer at a mosque in the West Bank city of Hebron are spreaders of evil.
Those who deliberately "distort news stories in order to vilify politicians, academics, and community leaders as 'anti-Semitic'" are spreaders of evil.
Israelis are spreaders of evil and, as the author of the original post notes, "In most situations, ignorance increases the chance of being wrong." One must become aware of repeated Israeli atrocities, despite deliberate concealment efforts by university-affiliated and media-affiliated personnel.
Unless you think that opposition to Communist Rule is part of the Ten Commandments, your condemnation of the Vietnam protests of the 60's and early 70's is wrongheaded.
It's true that the massive foot-voting to escape Vietnam showed that large number of people feared repercusions for supporting our side. When we pulled out it caused a big, and probably unavoidable, mess. That's what generally happens when you send soldiers abroad to fight in a civil war. It happened in Iraq, and in Afganistan, and it's pretty inevitable in Gaza.
But after fifty years, Vietnam is not a criminal dictatorship but a successful society. People are allowed to leave the country but as far as I know, they rarely do, Our leaders in 1968 told us that it was vital to keep Vietnam on our side, and they were clearly wrong, and the students were clearly right, even the most extreme of them.
The Communist victory was a good thing, for the Vietnamese, and for us. Consider the alternative.
The shit that the Vietnamese Communists did that has been forgotten could fill libraries. I personally know people whose relatives/friends were executed by the Vietnamese communists because they belonged to the wrong social class. They used to recruit children to terrorize opponents by throwing rocks at their house in the middle of the night.
That you imply the vietnamese diaspora fled to the US because they secretly loved the virtuous communists but were forced into fighting them shows how utterly insane you are. You know nothing.
That's stupid as fuck.
Time to eliminate federal funding for most of these campuses.
Because student political movements are often wrong?
And a lot of these schools are private anyhow.
Prepare to be disappointed.
Private but with juicy tax breaks.
I can't think that ending tax breaks for private colleges is going to perturb the average GOP voter.
Shades of when liberals talk about stripping churches of nonprofit status for being political.
Plenty of liberals go to church, plenty of Republicans got kids or grandkids got kids going to institutes of higher education.
And of course the OP wants it targeted. Which is going to be legally pretty tricky.
No, a Trump admin is not going to "eliminate federal funding for most of these campuses."
I also doubt superstitious bigots would be much bothered by anything that diminishes public education (which, in their mind, competes unfairly with nonsense-based, bigoted education).
Actually I’m on that horse too. I don’t approve of tax privileges for my own hobbies never mind other peoples.
Taxing productive work to subsidise hobbies seems like an eccentric notion of how to get a richer society, aside from being unfair on the workers.
Our higher education system is not a hobby.
An educated populace has a public benefit, especially in a republic.
1. This is not necessarily the most propitious time to be deploying that old saw : )
Since this time round it is not merely the students but also the faculty and administrators that are demonstrating quite impressive levels of idiocy
2. There is little evidence that sending mediocre students to college adds anything to the "educated-ness" of the public. It may add credentials without adding any education. Indeed the evidence may be stronger for subtraction than addition.
3. More than 40 million Americans, according to the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center, have spent time and money to go to college but never finished. This seems sad, but it may be that the enormous college drop out rate is is feature rather than a bug. Better to waste a year or two than four or five.
4. It is not necessary to rely on pubic funds or tax breaks to become educated. To the extent that some people would benefit themselves, and America, by going to college, most of them could afford to pay their own way at an unsubsidised college. And the billionaires, or indeed mere millionaires, can pick up the tab for the rest. Nor, outside those realms which require laboratories, is it necessary to go to college at all in order to become educated. Especially with that internet thing.
In short, I think putting universities (and churches) into the same tank that everyone else swims in is an experiment well worth running. Some (of both) will sink. As they should.
You not liking the viewpoint on campuses doesn't mean higher ed is a hobby, nor that the federal government should stop funding it.
As I said above, the same nonsense comes in on the left re: churches as nonprofits. They're also a public good we want to encourage.
There is little evidence that sending mediocre students to college adds anything to the “educated-ness” of the public
Employers disagree. The market trumps you on this one.
More than 40 million Americans, according to the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center, have spent time and money to go to college but never finished
That means we need different onramps and development opportunities, not to stop funding higher ed.
It is not necessary to rely on pubic funds or tax breaks to become educated
In the modern era, I'd say it very much is. And more than that, incentives matter.
billionaires, or indeed mere millionaires, can pick up the tab for the rest. Nor, outside those realms which require laboratories, is it necessary to go to college at all in order to become educated. Especially with that internet thing.
Hahahaha. No, the rich won't save you with charity. And no, STEM is not the be-all end-all of education.
Conservatives hostility towards schools will only grow as the educated electorate continues to reject their brand more and more. It's going to get stupider, I expect.
As I said above, the same nonsense comes in on the left re: churches as nonprofits. They’re also a public good we want to encourage.
But what do you not want to encourage ? Plumbing ? Supermarkets ? Hairdressing ? Hog breeding ?
And the laws of arithmetic dictate that in order to “encourage” Paul you have to “discourage” Peter.
The common feature of the goods and services used by members of the public that you would like to “encourage” for their public benefit is that ….. the public values the alleged benefit less highly that you do. Else they’d pay for it – like plumbing, supermarket produce, haircuts and bacon.
I read a PBS article recently which revealed – shock ! horror ! – that students now have to pay for nearly half of university operating costs ! Omigod ! Think what would happen if we all had to pay nearly half the cost of our bacon !
I want to encourage plumbers, but plumbing and supermarkets are doing fine as it is - people with the money for it gonna eat and poop regardless. People without the money for it, we have dedicated programs for that.
You encourage things that have a benefit beyond what the marketplace recognizes. Either due to time horizons, or avoiding a free rider thing, or any number of ways some things are good but an individual won't pick up that value.
IOW, you cannot equate the aggregate of individual choices with what is best for 'the public' as you do. The market is an incredible engine of efficiency and innovation, but it can fail, and even when it does not fail some situations you don't want to distribute goods/services based on eficiency.
the laws of arithmetic dictate that in order to “encourage” Paul you have to “discourage” Peter.
You don't say the encouragement must equal the discouragement. Because it won't - you cannot assume equal incentives for everyone.
I'm quite willing to listen to someone arguing student loans have borked the value proposition of education. But the idea that education shouldn't be subsidized at all is either hostile to the idea of an educated populace, or so market-worship poisoned as to not be connected to the complexity of economic reality.
IOW, you cannot equate the aggregate of individual choices with what is best for ‘the public’
However what I can very definitely do is point out that your claim of an El Dorado of “public benefits” that the market is missing, is a steaming pile of ipse dixit.
But the idea that education shouldn’t be subsidized at all is either hostile to the idea of an educated populace
It is obviously untrue that in the absence of assistance from the taxpayer there would be no education. (We’ll stick to higher education but the same principle applies across the board.)
Some people currently going to university would go anyway, with no public subsidies. On average these will be the people the value of whose additional education the market perceives – ie the smarter ones, and particularly those who wish to study something that will add knowledge or skill capital to their labor. Of course the useless children of the rich may also go to have a good time or to bask for the next 50 years in having been to Wherever College – but we don’t care about them because they’re not costing us – the public – anything. Because we’re not foolishly subsidizing the colleges.
The people who wouldn’t be going to college are those whose market case is marginal or poor.
We’re going to be getting the “public benefit” of their education, whatever it might be, from the first bunch anyway. What we’re losing out on is the “public benefit” of the second bunch – those who don’t have much of a market case.
So the question is – of the total “public benefit” to be expected in your taxpayer subsidized world, how much would we have got anyway, and how much is our “public benefit” return on investing that extra taxpayers money ? It obviously beggars belief to suppose that the per capita public benefit of the two tranches is going to be comparable. The first tranche are the most able, most talented people with the most potential. The second lot, not so much. So as we start subsidizing the second tranche, the marginal contribution of each additional student to the “public benefit” is going to be lower than the previous one. And so on.
So all your ipse dixit eggs are in the basket of “public benefit” from second raters.
But wait, we’re not finished, because we have ignored opportunity costs. That taxpayer funding doesn’t come from nowhere. It comes from all those plumbers and hairdressers. And yes from those evil capitalists and entrepreneurs who have a proven track record at investing capital productively. And that’s just the market calculated opportunity cost of those taxpayer dollars. There’s more !
There’s also hidden benefits of market transactions over and above the recorded prices and profits. There’s the consumer surplus. When I buy my bacon for $10, that means I value the bacon at more than $10. Maybe I’d be willing to go to $20 if I had to. You don’t see me getting $20 worth of bacon in the stats. But to me, it tastes like $20 worth.
So your steaming pile of ipse dixit is duking it out with :
1. the fact that we’d be getting most of it already, without any taxpayer subsidy, PLUS
2. the fact that there are yuuuge opportunity costs, eg* from the extra taxes you’re levying on transactions that the market applauds, and reducing the pile of capital that competent and imaginative entrepreneurs have to play with, PLUS
3. lots of foregone consumer surplus too
So if this was a horse race, I have to tell you you’re betting on rank outsider.
* the fact that the second raters could have been productively employed during the time they were attending college is of course another opportunity cost
You don’t say the encouragement must equal the discouragement. Because it won’t – you cannot assume equal incentives for everyone.
Indeed not. But the smart money is on the discouraging of productive Peter to encourage not so productive Paul being a loss making propostion. Public benefit wise.
We must get Elon to slow down a bit, because with a bit of encouragement we think we can get something wonderful out of Al Bundy.
Classic free speech absolutists. Always have 'correct' ways to punish people for speaking up.
These right-wing assholes are Volokh-style free speechers.
Maybe they'll be more comfortable at the Hoover Institution, with all of the other culture war roadkill.
Re: "Student movements are often wrong"
Well, duh. That's what college is about, being wrong and being dead sure you are right, until you grow up and realize that in order to be right you either have to learn the basics of what you're talking about, or learn to distinguish real experts from charlatans.
I remember the anti-nuclear-power movement ("No nukes!") which consisted mostly of kids who didn't know the difference between uranium and plutonium, (quick, what's the difference between the two elements' atomic numbers?) or between nuclear fusion and nuclear fission. I went to an ivy-league school and some of those people are policy-makers now, but they're not against nuclear power any more.
Man, those kids ought to know that knowing the difference beyween those things is more important than developing cancers from leaking irradiated water or living under the shadow of nuclear annihilation.
Irradiating water does not make the water you irradiate radioactive, carcinogenic, or dangerous.
I wouldn’t be afraid to drink a gallon of water after irradiating it with any type of radiation, so long as I had confidence that the water were not also contaminated (or adulterated) with radioactive material.
You would feel the same way if you understood what radiation is, and what it is not.
I’m not at all surprised that you don’t.
Oh, is that why it's ok to pump wastewater from nuclear power plants into the public water supply?
That depends on whether the wastewater is or is not contaminated or adulterated with radioactive material. Even if it is, the radioactive adulterant material in the water is what is dangerous, not the water itself.
Leaking radioactive material into water is very different from irradiating the water with radiation.
Water which is contaminated or adulterated with any toxic or carcinogenic material (in toxic or carcinogenic concentrations) is dangerous, even if the toxic or carcinogenic adulterant is not radioactive at all.
I'd rather drink a gallon of irradiated-but-pure water with no adulterants, than drink a teacup full of water with a significant amount of radioactive non-radioactive potassium cyanide dissolved in it, for instance.
Are you getting this?
Water is dangerous or not depending on what else besides the water is in the water, not on whether the water has been irradiated.
OOPS I wrote (apparently) “radioactive non-radioactive potassium cyanide”; I meant to write “radioactive or non-radioactive potassium cyanide". My error (or maybe the software ate the word "or").
Yeah, what I said was shorter, and still got the idea across.
Not that I’m dissing your knowledge, rock on, I think it's not necessary to be a physicist to know that nukes were bad news in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
What we fear in water from nuclear plants is not the irradiation; it's the possibility that the water might be contaminated with radioactive material.
(Did you ever take high-school-level chemistry or physics???)
In fairness to Nige, his misunderstanding is trivial compared to the widespread ignorance which long prevailed among those charged to govern this nation’s nuclear policy. Mostly, the concerns Nige is thinking about have to do with water which probably has been contaminated, but for which information about specific contaminates remains vague or undisclosed.
Decades ago Senator Jim McClure of Idaho invited me to interview him at a condo he was visiting in Sun Valley, ID. I was surprised when I arrived to learn I was the only invitee. McClure was without an entourage. He afforded me unlimited time, and we talked pleasantly for hours. I liked the guy personally, but our politics could not have been farther apart on most subjects.
McClure was then the chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee—a post he held in part because the 890-square-mile sagebrush steppe of the Idaho National Engineering laboratory was the site of many nuclear reactors built for experimental and training purposes. Some said it was the greatest concentration of nuclear reactors on the planet.
Those reactors used an assortment of nuclear technologies, some experimental. They performed dangerous experiments at times, including an intentional meltdown of a small reactor.
When the conversation turned to nuclear subjects, I gradually became aware that McClure not only knew little about them, but that he had also been systematically misinformed by others. For instance, McClure had apparently been hoodwinked into believing that an operating reactor could be made perfectly safe simply by flicking a switch to turn it off.
He knew nothing of meltdowns (this was before 3-Mile Island), or of any need to dissipate the heat of radioactive decay while a reactor was inactive. I probed those subjects, and got pushback, with McClure insisting that he had been assured that no such hazard or requirement existed. He knew it, he said, because he had been briefed by people who knew a lot more than I did. They assured him that every reactor could be made perfectly safe in an instant.
McClure was a gifted politician, who did what he could to manage the nation’s nuclear policy—to the extent other policy makers let him participate—with a politician’s tools. In that respect McClure typified a problem which has been long-standing and variously expressed.
The nation has had Air Force officers, Army officers, and Naval Admirals who managed nuclear policy by light of their principally military training. It has had senior political advisers managing nuclear policy with business tools. It has had university leaders managing nuclear policy with academic tools. It has seen all these compete with each other for preeminence, and attempting insofar as possible to win their competitions by using secrecy and denial of access to rivals. The one thing all these groups have generally done alike is to exclude from nuclear policy discussions any scientific or engineering experts who do not agree at the outset to back whatever faction currently enjoys control of access.
The result has been chaotic nuclear policy, with regard to defense, engineering, and environmental issues. It has been chaos filled with mishaps kept secret, and covered up with lies. Nuclear technology advocates must either address that disastrous legacy, and somehow win political assurance nationwide, or find something else to advocate.
Yes, you're right, though, I should have said 'contaminated,' fair cop.
Of course we should disdain knowledge and make our decisions based on ignorant fear. Best to avoid offending the God of Cancer by never intruding upon His domain, amirite?
This precludes the fact that lots of people who did know the science were critics and warning of the dangers.
That same poster was reused by the DDR for their Youth Groups, the "Pioneers" sort of a Co-Ed Cub Scouts and the "Freie Deutsche Jugend" (cool kids called it "Eff Day Yot" or Free German Youth, equivalent to our Boy/Girl Scouts. My Mom was in both (In Amurica you choose the Scouts, in DDR Scouts choose you!) Outings to those wonderful Baltic German Beaches (Rostock for Spring Break!) Summers on collective farms, all under the tutelage of that great Socialist Scoutmaster, Erich Honecker.
Not surprising todays Screw-dents would be carrying Eichmann posters, it is National SOCIALISM after all,
Frank
A Zionist poster especially from the 20s and the 30s often looks just like a Nazi poster. Just check out האדם החדש של המהפכה
הציונית: השומר הצעיר ושורשיו האירופיים (The new man of the Zionist revolution: Hashomer Hatzair and its European roots) by Rina Peled.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/%D7%94%D7%90%D7%93%D7%9D_%D7%94%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9_%D7%A9%D7%9C_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%94%D7%A4%D7%9B%D7%94_%D7%94%D7%A6/3IugAAAAMAAJ
The Nazi Youth movement was depraved and evil, but the Zionist youth movement has shown itself to be even more depraved and evil over a much longer period.
Student activism does not bother me as much are the number of US lawyers and doctors that are probable violators of US federal statutes that criminalize genocide and material support to perpetrators of genocide.
A US Zionist lawyer or doctor should be stripped of his professional credentials.
It is a violation of 8 U.S. Code § 1182 (Inadmissible aliens) for any foreign Zionist to enter the USA because he can be presumed to participate in genocide as genocide is defined in the US federal criminal code.
https://babylonbee.com/news/clever-college-students-figure-out-its-not-racist-to-call-for-the-murder-of-all-jews-if-you-just-call-them-zionists
Who's Cassidy Jones? A Cassidy Jones studied at the Harvard Law School years ago, but she is no longer in Cambridge.
How to know a Zionist is lying. Check for breathing.
Committing genocide, conspiring in genocide, inciting genocide, material supporting genocide, attempting genocide, materially supporting genocide, as well as aiding and abetting genocide are all US federal crimes, some of which carry a penalty of death.
Jewish ancestry does confer immunity to the US federal criminal code, and a fairy tale about an ancestral Jewish homeland in Palestine is not a cognizable defense to an indictment for a genocide-related crime.
It matters not whether 95% of US Zionists have Jewish ancestry (probably an overestimate), they should all be arrested, tried, almost certainly convicted, sentenced, and punished by operation of law.
If someone at a protest makes a true threat of murder or evinces murderous recklessness, he should be arrested and tried, but neither true threat nor recklessness is taking place. A Zionist propagandist makes this baseless and irrelevant accusation in order to distract from the ongoing mass murder genocide,
1. which colonial settlers of the Zionist baby-killer national are perpetrating and
2. which a depraved US Zionist supports.
Ilya Somin screeches irrelevancies to delegitimize the anti-genocide activism of college students.
Anyone with children in primary or secondary school knows exactly why college students are so vehemently protesting the Zionist state and the Gaza Holocaust.
The US Jewish community has worked hard to guarantee that US children study the Holocaust and genocide in every grade from 1st grade through 12th grade. The depraved and evil Jewish racists and post-Judaism Zionists among the US population believed that such study would immunize the Zionist baby-killer state against the accusation of genocide. Instead college students know a mass murder genocide when they see it.
Depraved and evil Zionists have been hoist upon their own petard. Genocide is a US and international capital crime without a statute of limitations.
Every Zionist on the planet must be transferred to a detention camp to await trial, almost certain conviction, sentence, and punishment for the crime of genocide.
In consequence, the world will become a better place.
Oh, quit hiding behind "Zionist" and come right out with your hatred of Jews.
I am Jewish. A Zionist cannot be Jewish because Zionism murdered Judaism by transforming Judaism into a program of genocide. No one can hate Judaism and Jews more than a Zionist hates Judaism.
Jerry B. is just like the Nazi, who accused my father of hating Germans because my father loathed Nazism.
A Zionist thinks exactly like a Nazi.
I see, you don't know what Zionism is. OK......
Just speaking to the peanut gallery, it's worth noting that "Affleck" was doxxed a while back and is not, in fact, Jewish but rather a Palestinian Muslim. I mean, it doesn't make his message either more or less horrific, but it does help demonstrate how pathetic he is: "Hello, fellow Jews! We sure hate those Zionists and should murder them, right guys?" (Looks directly into camera and winks)
No, you're not, Martillo.
It's always fascinating to watch right-wing bigots swarm when they perceive a chance to call someone else a bigot, legitimately or not. It must resemble watching Prof. Volokh when his automatic daily Google search turns up a racial slur in a reported decision.
Couldn't find a new moral rock bottom and decided to throw your hat in with Affleck, eh? Well done. You two gonna go murder Biden together?
Blaming the anti-Vietnam protests for Cambodia is pretty ballsy, I'll give you that.
Ilya wasn’t around to see those years personally and he gets his history from right wing mythicists, so I’m not surprised.
Yes, okay Rick Hess, the Cuban student movement that helped bring Castro to power may have ended up being bad in the long run, but that was far from evident when they were fighting to rid the country of Batista. Unfair to grade that as "an awful cause."
Did some previous Communist revolution make the Cuban one seem like a good cause? "I want to get rid of this bad thing" is a common thread in these foolish student movements, often coinciding with "I haven't thought through my alternative".
I think the US was more responsible for the rise of brutal repressive regimes in South America than students were. If they'd succeeded in overthrowing Castro, the results wouldn't have been any prettier.
Let's be blunt. The Cuban revolution could have taken quite a different path.
It is not hard to imagine Cuba developing as an authoritarian state allied with the US.
Not ideal, perhaps, but much better than what happened.
Did some previous Communist revolution make the Cuban one seem like a good cause?
Indeed. One reason to listen to your mailman in preference to a group of students is that your mailman might possibly know something about what happened before last Tuesday. He might not of course, but at least there's a chance.
Gazans seem to be coming around to Prof. Somin's position: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/27/gaza-hamas-public-support-israel/
That's certainly encouraging.
I hope Israel is thinking hard about something like the Marshall Plan.
You figure the anti-Palestinian bigots and religious kooks in the Netanyahu government are thinking about something like the Marshall Plan?
Their Marshall Plan is Kushner selling sea-front Gazan properties to rich Israelis.
Seems like it wasn't that long ago that popular support of Hamas by Gazans was a reason to bomb them to death. If they flip on Hamas, does that mean we can stop killing them en masse, now?
This development isn't particularly surprising to anyone who has been following Israeli/Palestinian politics for a while. No Palestinian really likes Fatah or the PLA. They recognize that it's a corrupt and ineffective organization, that acts primarily in concert with the Israeli government. Hamas was an alternative to that - an organization that actually provided support to Palestinians, while taking a more assertive stance against Israel. As long as Hamas delivered on that defiance, it could expect that kind of support.
But now - not enough attention is being paid to Hamas's dithering on ceasefire negotiations. Yes, much about unreasonable demands, but less on the on-again, off-again nature of the talks. It seems like they are either incompetently led, or there is some internal division on strategy that is making it difficult for them to choose a lane. I would suspect that there are two or three factions internally - some still in Gaza, leadership outside of Gaza, and Iran proxies - that are probably pulling in different directions for different ends. But it's hard to figure that out when the dominant media narratives are all about what a student organizer said in a video back in January.
If student groups are often wrong, because their members and leaders tend to be under-informed non-experts, what ought we to make of conservative think tanks like, oh I dunno, the American Enterprise Institute, which are stuffed to the gills with "experts" but nonetheless seem to have the absolute worst takes on every important policy question our country faces, adopted seemingly for-hire by their financial backers?
'Student movements are often wrong'
Which is exactly why Dems wanted the voting age dropped to 18, and have proposed dropping it further to 16.
They are insanely easy to manipulate. They are easily driven by emotional appeals.
iowan, it was because we were sending 18 year olds out to fight and die in war; the moral thing to do is give them a voice in that decision.
Democracy is not a policy-optimizing system; think of it without any inherent moral value and you will decide to shrink the franchise to basically a neo-aristocracy.
In defense of the student movement in Cuba - in particular the Student Revolutionary Directorate (or DRE) - that rose up in opposition to Batista they *also* later protested Castro's hijacking of the revolution and the subsequent establishment of a dictatorship. Many were arrested by Castro or fled from Havana. They certainly wouldn't have supported Castro had they known he was going to create another dictatorship.