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Justice Jackson Seems to Be Charting a More Speech-Restriction-Tolerant Approach
Justice Jackson, like Justice Breyer (whom she replaced and for whom she clerked), seems to be considering an approach that is more embracing of speech restrictions that she views as especially urgent—including perhaps ones that departs from precedents such as the Pentagon Papers case.
In recent decades, the Court has been extremely skeptical when the government, acting as sovereign (as opposed to employer, subsidizer, educator, etc.) tries to suppress speech based on its content. But of course there has also long been a tradition of Justices arguing in favor of allowing restrictions when the government's needs appear especially urgent. Justice Breyer offers a recent example, and of course past Justices had taken similar views. Chief Justice Rehnquist was more embracing of speech restrictions, for instance, especially in his early years. Justice Frankfurter was another example, back in the 1940s and 1950s. (For more on the link between Justice Frankfurter's and Justice Breyer's approaches, see here.)
Yesterday's Murthy v. Missouri argument suggests that Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson may take a similar approach. Recall that the heart of the case is about two related but conceptually separate issues: (1) whether the government coerced platforms into restricting certain user speech; (2) whether, if the government merely substantially encouraged platforms to restrict such speech rather than coercing them, that would itself be subject to First Amendment scrutiny. Most of the Justices asked the lawyers about these two matters, and about related procedural questions.
But several of Justice Jackson's questions raised the possibility that the government may indeed be allowed even to coerce platforms into restricting speech—including speech that doesn't fall within the familiar First Amendment exceptions (such as for true threats or solicitation of crime). Some excerpts (emphases added):
[1.] I understood our First Amendment jurisprudence to require heightened scrutiny of government restrictions of speech but not necessarily a total prohibition when you're talking about a compelling interest of the government to ensure, for example, that the public has accurate information in the context of … a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic.
So … I'm just interested in the government sort of conceding that if there was coercion, then we automatically have a First Amendment violation….
[2.] [T]here may be circumstances in which the government could prohibit certain speech on the Internet or otherwise. I mean, … do you disagree that we would have to apply strict scrutiny and determine whether or not there is a compelling interest in how the government has tailored its regulation?
[3.] [W]e have a test for a determination of whether or not the First Amendment is actually violated. So, in certain situations, you know, the government can actually require that speech be suppressed if there's a compelling interest, right? …
[4.] [P]art of the reason why you might be running into all of these difficulties with respect to the different factual circumstances is because you're not focusing on the fact that there are times in which the government can, depending on the circumstances, encourage, perhaps even coerce, because they have a compelling interest in doing so….
[Y]ou have to admit that there are certain circumstances in which the government can provide information, encourage the platforms to take it down, tell them to take it down.
I mean, … what about the hypo of someone posting classified information? They say it's my free speech right, I believe that I -- you know, I got access to this information and I want to post it.
Are you suggesting that the government couldn't say to the platforms, we need to take that down? …
[5.] All right. So what do we -- what do we do then in a situation in which -- I mean, I suppose, in this case, we're asking -- the government's point is we didn't coerce. And I appreciate, you know, the debate about that.
But you just seemed to suggest that as a blanket matter, the government doesn't have the ability to, you know, encourage or require this kind of censorship. And I don't know that that's the case….
[6.] So my biggest concern is that your view has the First Amendment hamstringing the government in significant ways in the most important time periods.
I mean, … what would you have the government do? I've heard you say a couple times that the government can post its own speech, but in my hypothetical [about someone posting a new teen challenge that involved teens jumping out of windows at increasing elevations], you know, kids, this is not safe, don't do it, is not going to get it done.
And so I guess some might say that the government actually has a duty to take steps to protect the citizens of this country, and you seem to be suggesting that that duty cannot manifest itself in the government encouraging or even pressuring platforms to take down harmful information.
So can you help me? Because I'm really -- I'm really worried about that because you've got the First Amendment operating in an environment of threatening circumstances from the government's perspective, and you're saying that the government can't interact with the source of those problems….
[7.] [Y]ou want us to take the line … to be between compulsion and encouragement and what we're looking at is the government can't compel, maybe they can encourage. I'm wondering whether that's not really the line. The line is does the government, pursuant to the First Amendment, have a compelling interest in doing things that result in restricting the speech in this way? That test, I think, takes into account all of these different circumstances, that we don't really care as much about how much the government is compelling or maybe we do but in the context of tailoring and not as sort of a freestanding inquiry that's overlaid on all of this….
Now, as Justice Jackson notes, there's ample precedent for upholding even content-based speech restrictions (again, imposed by the government as sovereign, and not just as employer or subsidizer or the like) when the restrictions are "narrowly tailored" to a "compelling government interest." But the strength of modern First Amendment doctrine is that the Court has very rarely upheld restrictions on this basis. Consider, for instance, the violent video games case, where the Court struck down (over Justice Breyer's dissent) a narrow restriction on children's acquiring violent video games themselves (without parental participation).
Likewise, speech generally can't be restricted even if it generally persuades people to do harmful things, in the absence of some specific solicitation of crime against a particular target, or the counseling of imminent illegal conduct. And in the Pentagon Papers case (1971), the Court held (6-3) that the government generally can't block the publication even of "classified information."
It seems to me that Justice Jackson would take an approach that's more open to speech restrictions, in order to avoid "the First Amendment hamstringing the government in significant ways in the most important time periods." This would not just be limited to the government trying to persuade platforms or other intermediaries to block third parties' speech, but would include "restrictions of speech," "prohibit[ing] certain speech on the Internet or otherwise," "actually requir[ing] that speech be suppressed," "requir[ing] this kind of censorship," and using "coercion," "compulsion," and "pressur[e]."
Again, other Justices have taken that view. As to "the government … say[ing] to the [newspapers]" that they may not publish "classified information," Chief Justice Burger and Justices Harlan and Blackmun would have allowed the government to say just that in their Pentagon Papers dissent. But it struck me as noteworthy that Justice Jackson was joining this tradition.
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Is "department" in the summary paragraph an error for "depart"?
Whoops, thanks, fixed!
She's an idiot. Read 1A. Case closed.
"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press." So that means that it's OK for the President to demand that social media platforms, newspapers, and other restrict speech, on pain of governmental retaliation (e.g., antitrust enforcement), so long as Congress isn't making a law to do it? And, conversely, it means that Congress can't pass a law banning interstate communication of death threats, because those are speech?
Might some smart people view free speech law, which has produced hundreds of complicated precedents over the last century, as somewhat more complicated than just a matter of reading the text of the First Amendment? Or are all people who take that view "idiot[s]"?
Yes, some smart people are idiots.
Like that great Legal Mind, Cheech Marin said,
"A Mind is a Terrible Thing (too wasted)"
Frank
You're a nice guy, a good guy, and a smart guy. But you're also a lawyer, trained by schools and experience to act as a lawyer, and to most everybody who's not a lawyer, that means quibbling. You probably don't see it as that, or you differentiate good quibbling and bad quibbling, or make some other lawyerly distinction that eludes the rest of us.
But you yourself have said the lawyers' true superpower is to turn any question into a procedural question, which is an admission of quibbling in non-lawyerly eyes.
I'm sure all this quibbling about where the line is between coercion and suggestion fits well with the case history of lawyerly quibbling. But except for partisan hacks who think coercion is mere suggestion when done by their side, the rest of us see government suggestions in the same light as Mafia suggestions, and all the lawyerly quibbling to the contrary just emphasizes how little use we have for lawyerly quibbling.
But how do you see it as Congress making a law?
"You should censor harrassment, or else section 230 might get broken. Things break, you know."
Krayt, you keep coming back to that. Two questions:
1. Do you assert Congress has no power at its own discretion to present a bill to alter or repeal Section 230?
2. If you do not assert that, can you point to any privilege of law which a social media platform could legitimately take to the Supreme Court to constrain that power of Congress?
Yes, isn't it humorous how that phrase can mean whatever the government employees want it to mean?
Since, aside from a few inherent executive branch powers, such as issuing pardons, everything the executive branch does is at least theoretically premised on enforcing a law by Congress, you'd BETTER be able to identify a relevant Congressional law, or the act is ultra vires.
Quibbling: paying attention to differences, as viewed by one who would rather not.
Does Congress need to pass laws reinforcing all of the Bill of Rights then? The constitution is law. Where is it described in the constitution that the Federal government has the “Ministry of Truth” function?
SCOTUS has had a long history of very bad precedents, Scott, Plessy, Kelo, Roe.
Yea just read it is great advice. If you want to add to it amend it. Maybe idiot is too harsh. Does conniving ideologue sound better?
I have recently been informed on good authority that nothing in the constitution is law unless Congress enacts implementing legislation under section 5 of the 14th amendment.
You have not.
Indeed. It was bad authority.
But only after you turned off your "trolling" switch.
When and where were you informed of such?
I submit that this is yet another case of you failing to understand simple English.
Let's just say that some of the commenters in threads about Trump v. Anderson seemed to have some peculiar ideas about what that judgment meant.
With the exception of, say, the right to trial by jury, Constitutional rights are generally of a "the government can't do this", "the government can't do that" nature. NOT, "the government must do this or that". That being the case, constitutional rights don't typically NEED enabling legislation, they just need the government to refrain from legislation and/or actions that violate the right.
Section 3 of the 14th amendment isn't a rights provision, of course. It's more of a denial of rights provision, and denial of rights does typically take legislation to establish a procedure by which the right gets denied.
With the exception of, say, the right to trial by jury, Constitutional rights are generally of a “the government can’t do this”, “the government can’t do that” nature. NOT, “the government must do this or that”.
Was there something in Sect. 3 of Amendment 14 that says that "the government must do" something? I thought it just listed conditions under which a person would be disqualified from holding office.
Section 3 of the 14th amendment isn’t a rights provision, of course. It’s more of a denial of rights provision, and denial of rights does typically take legislation to establish a procedure by which the right gets denied.
Is there a constitutional right to hold office in the U.S.? What procedures are there that would deny a two-term former president the 'right' to have a third term? Besides, Sect. 3 explicitly explain how to remove this denial of rights.
Man, you guys are OBSESSED.
You cannot punish somebody without any actual evidence of what they are being punished for even happening.
Let’s just say that you evaded the very simple question, and now you look like a shameless liar.
"SCOTUS has had a long history of very bad precedents, Scott, Plessy, Kelo, Roe."
Let's not forget Korematsu, which Justice Jackson is channeling here.
How exactly do you see the overlap between Korematsu and Murthy? I mean, you don't have to agree with anything Justice Jackson said or might do, but the two cases seem utterly unrelated.
As explained above, Korematsu is the origin of the compelling interest test, where judges get to ignore constitutional rights if the judges think there is a sufficient governmental interest.
We saw how well that's stood the test of time. It's been used to permit straight-up atrocities, and used to declare garden variety policy disputes "compelling" such that states are allowed to ignore the constitution.
Is it? Guess who wrote this:
Yes it is. As it turns out, it was not necessarily to send Japanese Americans to concentration camps to save the country. And no some seriously argues, for example, that the preferences at issue in Bakke were necessary to save the country, that was a naked policy choice.
Ok not done with this, "smart people, complicated precedents"
Translation people who want to end around the constitution.
1A is absolute but some examples may be helpful.
Hate, racist, being wrong, criticizing government Covid policy, Nazi, communist, criticizing Hunter, criticizing anything government for that matter.
Ironically Brown's example, criticizing Gov Covid policies, is probably the main reason we have 1A.
The only fly in the ointment is known exceptions, such as slander and libel, then blackmail.
Same as with the 2A -- there are known exceptions for prisoners, mental cases, children.
And that's where the lawyers come in.
Given that illegals can now have guns --- it is hard to argue against ANY limitations on gun ownership.
Here’s a thought: not everybody agrees those should be exceptions. In fact, shock and horror, some of us don’t believe the state should exist at all.
One point overlooked was the Govt was so active in coercing the suppression of factually correct information that actual misinformation/ false data became more believable precisely because the govt s efforts to suppress good information became widely known.
Ivermectin and hxc (neither of which were effective) became cult like saviors to a large degree because the govt/ cdc, etal developed a bad reputation due to their dishonesty.
"It's the government's fault I was gullibly listening to grifters."
Can you provide a rational reason to trust an organization telling the truth on a subject when they have been repeatedly caught promoting false information.
Well, to start with, your premise isn't true. But setting that aside, "I don't trust the government, so therefore I'm going to trust some rando on TikTok" isn't a rational statement.
David - the CDC regularly beclowned itself during the pandemic with inaccurate information.
"Well, to start with, your premise isn’t true."
You don't think Trump promoted false information? I would think everyone would be able to agree that the premise is true, even if they don't agree on the specific facts that make it true.
"It’s the government’s fault I was gullibly listening to grifters."
Well, if the grifters are saying things that make intuitive sense to me and seem subjectively correct, and the government keeps suppressing the comments, doesn't address them and doesn't allow the issues to be debated, then yes, it's the government's fault I was gullibly listening to grifters.
IANAL, but I believe that there is a somewhat anomalous legal principle. If I destroy or conceal evidence, isn't there a presumption that the evidence is disfavorable to my position?
I don't think judges view the suppression of information this way in other contexts, do they?
Judge: Weren't you supposed to produce some documents or something?
Me: Well, your honor, I believe that it is compelling that the court have access to accurate information, and I was concerned that the court would be misled by the documents, so I persuaded the person in possession of the documents to shred them.
Judge: Thank you, you've done the court a valuable service.
Well, if the grifters are saying things that make intuitive sense to me and seem subjectively correct, and the government keeps suppressing the comments, doesn’t address them and doesn’t allow the issues to be debated, then yes, it’s the government’s fault I was gullibly listening to grifters.
If that's really how you think, it sounds suspiciously like you're an idiot. Particularly since the government almost always combines a campaign against misinformation with ample provision of correct information.
"If that’s really how you think, it sounds suspiciously like you’re an idiot."
If that's how you think, I'd say you're the idiot. Governments provide the information they want to you believe, and oppressive governments suppress the information they don't want you to believe. Just because the government provides it doesn't mean it's true, and just because the government suppresses it doesn't mean it's false.
Why would it "make intuitive sense to" you that horse dewormer cures a viral respiratory disease?
Who told you it was “a horse dewormer”?
Who told you it was “a horse dewormer”?
Comedy Central. He's been playing the useful idiot by mindlessly regurgitating that sort of bullshit for years. His TDS has just caused him to dial that up to 11 the past year or so. I called him on the "horse dewormer" stupidity already, even providing authoritative references to Ivermectin's history as a drug used to treat quite a few human ailments (for years it was even hailed as a "wonder drug" due to the number of lives it saved around the world). So he knows it's bullshit, which means he can't even plead ignorance, and is just another garden variety lying sack of shit.
Because it's also used as a horse dewormer. And you're still mad. Because people took horse dewormer. To cure covid.
"Because it’s also used as a horse dewormer."
Sure. Chicken is used to feed cats, too. But the claim that people were taking horse dewormer was just as dishonest and misleading as a claim that KFC is serving cat food would be.
And the FDA, in its haste, told people who were taking ivermectin for legitimate reasons to stop. Talk about misinformation!
FWIW, I saw people at the local Ag supply buying veterinary ivermectin as a covid treatment, so some people were buying 'horse dewormer' for covid.
Also FWIW, here is astralcodex's summary of the evidence. Tl;dr - it probably doesn't work for covid, but there was reason to look at it. The article is a great example of how to look at conflicting studies.
Oh how many times does it have to happen for it to become emblemeatic of the sheer stupidity?
'And the FDA, in its haste, told people who were taking ivermectin for legitimate reasons to stop.'
Or to put it another way, all the idiots who believed it would cure covid made difficulties for people who actually needed it.
I love how butthurt Wuzyougoncetoo gets when one points out just how fucking stupid he and his ilk were. "Mommy, he's being mean to us¹ to call it that. It's not just horse dewormer; it's people dewormer too!" As if that makes them look less stupid, given that SARS-CoV-2 is a virus, not a parasite. And as if he doesn't know that in fact these people were so desperate to believe that voodoo that they were in fact taking the veterinary formulation because they couldn't get the human one.
¹This from the same people who blindly worship Donald Trump and then attempt to mock his critics by saying that he's only guilty of "mean tweets."
I love how butthurt Wuzyougoncetoo gets...
So in addition to being a lying sack of shit you also have the mentality of a middle schooler.
...when one points out just how fucking stupid he and his ilk were.
Given that I didn't take Ivermectin nor any other alternative treatment for Covid...and when I exposed your bullshit I even stated that there appeared to be no good evidence that it was effective for that...this is just another example of your pathetic dishonesty.
You really are one sad fat-ass excuse for a human being.
'things that make intuitive sense '
Is a lie really a lie if someone believes it and therefore you can claim it must have made intuitive sense to them? Seems like everyone takes the blame for lies except the liars, in ever more elaborate justifications.
'and doesn’t allow the issues to be debated'
The lie here is that the lies were somehow suppressed and were not debunked by qualified experts. They were. And yet they took off. The next step is to blame experts for being arrogant, and THAT causing the lies to spread and be believed.
"Is a lie really a lie if someone believes it and therefore you can claim it must have made intuitive sense to them?"
Huh? It's not a lie just because it makes intuitive sense. But if the government is going to suppress information supporting it, subjective belief is all you have to go on.
If the government had been actually supressing anything, this would still be dumb, because there are ways to verify whether things are true that don't rely on governments or grifters. Then there are those who will tell you that a thing must be true because a government is suppressing it, even though the government isn't suppressing it.
"So that means that it’s OK for the President ... so long as Congress isn’t making a law to do it?"
The 1A text actually requires that. Smart people screwed that up from the get go.
Few [except me!] are truly textualists.
What?
The 1a automatically presupposes the existence of "freedom of speech", no? Where is it assumed that the president can abridge it at will?
I read a lawyer's explanation of "freedom of speech" once which was very enlightening as to how lawyers quibble. See, "freedom of speech" does not mean "freedom" "of" "speech" which means you are free to speak. No, it must be treated as a single unified phrase which has the ancient noble definition of "yeah, you can speak, but you can't slander or libel someone, or blackmail them, or defame them, and national security trumps everything, so don't go reporting embarrassing things which embarrass the government and reduce its nobility in the world's eyes."
So see, you've been reading that phrase as three separate words when it is really one word with some unfortunate but meaningless spaces.
The term of art for this phenomenon is "term of art."
The reason that it's important to focus on the text of the 1A is that the founders used that particular language to be as absolute as possible in prohibiting government from limiting speech. The thinking was, "what way can we write this amendement so that the government can't subsequently weasel their way out of a flat prohibition of speech limitation?"
The thinking was, “what way can we write this amendement so that the government can’t subsequently weasel their way out of a flat prohibition of speech limitation?”
If that was their thinking, they didn't do a very good job of it.
To be fair, they were engaged in a basically impossible enterprise: "How can we make rules dishonest people won't be able to dishonestly construe?"
As Justice Scalia used to say: USSR had a great constitution!
From the introduction to A patriot's history of the United States (2004):
That was twenty years ago. A lot of water under that bridge...
Ain't that the truth ...
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=449060
It was ridiculous 20 years ago too. It was ridiculous a century ago when the Espionage Act was passed and enforced. Liberty has been declining steadily since the Constitution was ratified.
While your issue of governmental retaliation raises issues of Chevron, technically everything the executive does is under the auspices of a Congressional act.
And Congress can't ban interstate death threats -- it can punish them afterwards. How would anyone know you were going to make one before you made it.
But this is what bothered me:
"a compelling interest of the government to ensure, for example, that the public has accurate information in the context of … a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic."
That's the government establishing a ban on unofficial information which is something else entirely.
"And Congress can’t ban interstate death threats — it can punish them afterwards."
That is true of every category of speech. Civil disobedience (which presupposes acceptance of the applicable penalties) is always an option.
"So that means that it’s OK for the President..."
If Congress cannot make the law that does so, how exactly does the President demand it? What authority is he operating under? Or are we just assuming his powers are only limited by what Congress does?
The justices may be right about the constitutional claims.
I think we need new legislation creating new "public square" status for some Internet platforms. That would confer some rights and responsibilities that don't exist today. Future fights would then be about this new law, not The Constitution.
Defenders of free speech should agree that we need some form of public square in the modern world.
The Florida and Texas laws that regulate how service providers cull content are based on the theory that social media platforms are common carriers. But, ordinary statutes can’t make such a declaration, and the Court appeared inclined to rule against Florida and Texas at oral arguments.
Similarly, Congress can’t decree that privately-run social media platforms are the “public square.”
Tyranny is tyranny. She’s an idiot if she was some blue check calling to dismantle the First Amendment through a tweet. She doesn’t get a pass because she made it into the SC.
Not all of them are idiots, some of them are evil.
Marxism is a helluva drug.
Impressive patience by Eugene Volokh, suffering wreckinball.
Justice Jackson unfortunately speaks for a growing portion of left in accepting the prospect of increased government speech control.
Don't you just love how "great legal minds" can discover utterly invisible stuff in the Constitution? Let's simplify. The legislative power of the federal government is vested in Congress. No action taken by the federal government is lawful unless Congress authorizes it from the 18 enumerated powers. The job of the President and his subordinates in the Executive Branch is to faithfully execute the laws enacted by Congress. No more; no less.
The Supreme Court and inferior courts try cases arising from alleged violation of federal laws. Yeah, I know Jefferson had an alienated Congress that was unwilling to tell Justice Marshall he had no basis for deciding Marbury v. Madison, and great mischief has since ensued. Yeah, I know Congress has never exercised its authority to remove matters from court jurisdiction or to restructure the courts to rid them of scofflaw judges. But Ketanji-Jackson's evident instincts are utterly preposterous. Freedom may be messy, but it is vastly superior to despotism, which is what FDR and his successors have increasingly delegated to a permanent bureaucracy.
Is she simply moving the highly subjective line that decides whether a state interest is compelling rather than merely substantial?
Kentaji Brown Jackson grills LA solicitor general, says that because the govt can occasionally censor, they can also occasionally coerce:
KBJ: “Whether or not the government can do this… depends on the application of our First Amendment jurisprudence.
There may be circumstances in which the government could prohibit certain speech on the internet or otherwise.”
KBJ doubles down: “My biggest concern is that your view has the First Amendment hamstringing the government in significant ways.”
That is, quite literally, the entire point of the First Amendment—of the entire Bill of Rights.
Specific warrants really hamstring the government, would she prefer general warrants?
What's wrong with general warrants?
I wouldn't know from experience, since they've been forbidden in this country by the 4th Amdt for well over 200 years. Seems to have been something quite easily abused by the English govt.
KBJ doubles down: “My biggest concern is that your view has the First Amendment hamstringing the government in significant ways."
The purpose of 1A is to hamstring the government -
Sounds like someone with deep inferiority and insecurity who views govt as the force to bully everyone who she blames.
"[Hamstringing the government ] is, quite literally, the entire point of the First Amendment—of the entire Bill of Rights."
Yup. And let's not forget that the compelling interest test to which she refers was literally invented to prevent the government from being hamstrung in its efforts to send Americans of a particular race to concentration camps during a very important time.
They stack violation on violation. And only a few of us even notices it, much less opposes it. I’m absolutely certain the overwhelming majority of Americans would say the state should jail someone who’s perceived to be a threat to national security.
Yes, henceforth, a "compelling government interest" standard will be satisfied if the government presents a rational basis for the limitation on speech.
Various state and local governments have been very successful using this approach (or some such perversion of the Constitution) to limit people's Second Amendment rights. It isn't very surprising to see the government now move against people's First Amendment rights (on equally constitutionally-spurious grounds). They know that the judges "have their back"!
The term a compelling government interest” was used as an end run around the 5th Amendment concerning DUI rights. I think that's where it got it's start.
As stupid a woman as ever donned the black robes.
Wrong on 3 counts
1) It is a right so just saying it is inconvenient means nothing.
2) Judiciary is not the Legislative branch of government
3) She is doing this for the lazy and stupid Pres who wanted with all his heart : the Disinformation Governance Board (DGB)
People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. To wit:
Once more, for the terminally stupid: that board was about interagency coordination. It had no power to take any actions.
Cut her some slack, she doesn't even know what a woman is, how could she possibly have any clue about coercion or restrictions?
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators . . . anti-government cranks, unreconstructed bigots, disaffected culture war casualties, credentials- and expertise-disdaining losers, half-educated simpletons, backwater movement conservatives.
She said that she didn't know what a woman was.
That is a fact -- not that you let yourself be confused with the facts.
Technically, she said that she could not provide a definition. As she noted, as a judge it's her job to resolve disputes, based on arguments and the law. And in testimony to the Judiciary Committee she should not be opining on specific cases that may come up. And subsequently many Republican senators struggled to provide definitions for woman when asked later; perhaps Dr. Ed 2 will entertain us with his own definition?
You have the right to be delusional, but judges can't. There are two biological genders, anyone who disputes that is mentally ill or stupid.
She obviously has deep seated inferiority and insecurities and views govt esp the federal govt as the bat to bully those she blames for her mental issues.
OK. You’re a jackass.
Are you a mental health expert? Have you examined Jackson, spoken with her?
Do you understand that people talking about gender are talking about something other than biological gender?
Of course not.
Gender is a function of biology. Case closed. Only a deluded idiot could think otherwise.
Do you understand that people talking about gender are talking about something other than biological gender?
You're an idiot.
You didn't say how those two genders are defined; come on, see if you can do better than Republican senators!
"Woman" = Adult female human. (The meaning of "adult" is dependent on context, of course.)
"Man" = Adult male human.
"Girl" = Pre-adult female human.
"Boy" = Pre-adult male human.
Yeah, that was really complicated.
Now all you need to do is pass stringent laws against anyone who doesn't quite fit in to any of that, and while you're at it demonise them and persecute them and act as if their very existence is some sort of existential threat to civilisation. Just because you can't deal with the slightest complication.
A number of Republican senators failed to achieve that much. Ignoring that you just punted to needing to define male and female, you still run afoul of similar difficulty defining adult (various ages for different purposes, but what about mentally disabled people?) and even human (not to open an abortion debate about fetuses, embryos and zygotes; biologically a dead human being would still be human but laws treat them differently from living humans; another problem if Neanderthals or other members of the same genus as us turned out not to be extinct).
Ignoring that you just punted to needing to define male and female
You do know that there are already generally accepted biological definitions for those words, right? When you fill out paperwork at your doctor's office and you're asked to check either "Male" or "Female", do you feel the need to ask the receptionist for definitions of those words?
you still run afoul of similar difficulty defining adult (various ages for different purposes
If you actually read what I wrote then you know that I already pointed out that the meaning of "adult" will depend on context. And there's no real difficulty there. If the context is a biological one then "adult" generally refers to sexual maturity, in a legal one, the age of majority, etc. And note that particular issue only impacts the difference between girl/woman and boy/man, not the more general difference between male/female.
but what about mentally disabled people?
What about them?
You pedantic descent into "what is a human?" completely misses the point.
The point is that there are a small number of people for which the diverse biological definitions are not in agreement; edge cases are where the dispute is. Why won't anyone say what these biological definitions are? You can't even go Potter Stewart and say you know a woman when you see one.
Yes, I saw that you admitted that adult varies with context. But your distinction between biological and legal context is simplistic, and "etc." covers a lot of different legal contexts (and minors can petition courts to be treated as adults for specific purposes).
Magister, I think you are letting edge cases do too much work.
Society happily uses the categories ‘car’ and ‘truck’ despite the existence of El Caminos and the Subaru Brat.
We talk about ‘planes’ and ‘helicopters’ despite the V-22 and autogyros.
In biology we allow for mammals despite platypuses, and fish despite walking fish and lungfish, and so on.
If someone answers ‘what’s the difference between a car and a truck’ with ‘I dunno, I’m not a mechanical engineer’, it makes me wonder what kind of fast one they are trying to pull.
I will repeat that Jackson declined to provide a definition, and if cars versus trucks were a hot button culture war issue that's likely to come before the Supreme Court, a potential justice should give the same answer. And of course it is all about the edge cases.
I'm still just waiting for someone to commit to a non-hand-waving answer. For any of you who assert that there is a simple and certain definition, why won't you provide it?
Sorry, that gets an eye roll. Dividing horses into stallions and mares isn't rocket science, edge cases notwithstanding.
Still hand waving. How pathetic! Are you that scared of being as stupid as a Republican senator?
It amazes me that bad SCOTUS decisions throughout our history (and lets hope this isn't one of them) involve ideological justices reading between the lines to come to an unconstitutional conclusion.
Scott, Plessy, Roe all involved a lot of reading between the lines.
The constitution is plain English. It means what it means.
Just read 1A. There is no pandemic exception to the constitution. If you want one start an amendment.
Kelo is one of the best examples of prior bad precedent morphing into the reasoning for a blatantly obvious unconstitutional decision.
prior case law supported the ever so slight slow twists of the meaning of public use that justified the holding in Kelo.
The comments from the justices indicate that they are willing to accept the twisting of government involvement in speech from encouraging speech, to coercing speech to eventually outright censorship.
Good example. I've heard the "what do you want them to do build the whole development around the property owner" argument in favor of Kelo.
YES!
Second government has no business being involved in private property transactions.
The constitution is plain English. It means what it means.
The constitution is many things, but it is definitely not in plain English. Never was either. This is not a point about language changing, but about legal drafting.
Bzzzzt! No, you are wrong. It is in plain English, but then the lawyers came along and translated it to lawlish.
If you can't see that, you have self-identified as a lawyer.
Your mistake is thinking the Founders were simple, rural men who spoke plainly. They were not: Schooled in government, law, business, and philosophy, the Founders understood nuance. You do not.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Yea that's pretty clear. Being clear and concise is a sign of intelligence
Domt you understand? The constitution is only to be read and interpreted by Chiefs, and sons of Chiefs. It is the E Pleb Neesta.
The Founders understood the nuance of simplicity and the debates were more about what to take OUT than anything else.
Some (eg Adams) were lawyers -- most weren't. But all wanted to avoid having some slick lawyer twist their words into another meaning than the intended one. Hence Bill of Rights -- the initial thought was it wasn't necessary because everyone knew those rights were there.
Look it up.
Most, in fact, were lawyers.
Madison, the most relevant in this instance, was not. Though he studied law, he never apprenticed with a lawyer or sat for the bar.
Quibbling is to nuance as atomic bombs are to M80s.
Just because you're too stupid to understand or too ideologically motivated to be honest doesn't mean it's not in plain English.
The constitution is plain English. It means what it means.
The historically originalist interpretation for that is, "No."
Madison, Hamilton, and many others pondered that very issue during the Philadelphia convention. They concluded that no document they could write would render the Constitution unambiguous. As proof they cited profuse disagreements among delegates about meanings and interpretations of various texts that were offered as candidates for inclusion. During those discussions, they conceded it as a principle that there would never be a basis for one unambiguous reading of the Constitution.
To learn more about those important facts of history consult Jack Rakove's Pulitzer Prize winning history, Original Meanings: Politics and Ideas in the Making of the Constitution. There you will see the simplistic point posited above dissected in context of hundreds of pages of massively researched historical evidence.
However daunting that may be, a yet larger and still-more complicated debate on those questions ensued immediately after ratification, and continued for years afterward, as the principal founders (at least) expected and said in advance. Madison had a name for that process to recast continuously the textual meanings previously laid down. He called it, "liquidation."
Note also, all that founding era rumination was about texts with well-focused contexts of creation, upon which the relevant parties had fastened their attention simultaneously. It never had occasion to take up a daunting later problem which vexes our own era—the problem by what means to replace an antique context of creation which has been forgotten? And to do it during a modern present featuring interpreters untrained in the methods of historical analysis, like today's justices, who reflexively make the historical error to substitute presentism, and foolishly to suppose it has relevance to deliver ruling context for antique texts.
So you don’t think the words “shall not be infringed” have a clear meaning? They understood that communication was imperfect but they weren’t post-modernists.
"2) whether, if the government merely substantially encouraged platforms to restrict such speech rather than coercing them..."
Nice business you've got there....
Crazy me, I thought the whole point of the 1A was to hamstring the govt’s ability to restrict speech. If the govt can just suspend it whenever it feels like during “important time periods” then it’s effectively meaningless. When aren’t we in an important time period?
Classified information is a relevant exception, but that’s also a bit of a red herring. All classified information has a time limit on it, it’s designation is outside of the political process and subject to oversight by POTUS and Congress, and anyone voluntarily working with classified information signs a statement waiving their right to disseminate it.
Classified (government) and proprietary (private) information is by definition not public. It’s not speech.
There is no exception in regards to speech. Lies, racist, hate, Nazi, communist all of it free speech.
This is the most important presidential election in history. Democracy is on the line! Of course we need to suppress free speech.
So the 1st Amendment does not apply to false speech. And "false speech" constitutes anything that any government official deems to be false regardless of the accuracy of the content. Thus, 2 + 2 = 4 will be "false" if a government official deems it to be false.
Our classification regime is rooted in the National Security Act of 1947. Prior to that there was no general system of classification and the next most recent law that was relevant was the Espionage Act of 1917.
Today, you can find job listings for clearance holders in nearly every department of the federal govt, just as there are sworn LE jobs in the same - including the Dept of Education.
The fact that this is more sham than substance was born out when the underlying material in U.S. v. Reynolds was declassified and found to contain nothing damaging to national security (which is the entire and only reason for information being classified in the first place, per the Act), but very embarrassing to the Air Force.
First they came for my Second Amendment…..
But Justice Roberts "could not be depended on" to stand up for it. (see here)
Roberts would rather be liked by his beltway friends than be right.
“The line [between coercing and encouraging private speech] is does the government, pursuant to the First Amendment, have a compelling interest in doing things that result in restricting the speech in this way?”
I think this is an excellent question and it fully deserves an answer, which is: no, that is not where the line must be drawn, for the following reasons:
1. A “compelling” interest means merely it is of interest to the subject. We can assume the subject wouldn’t be making the speech unless they were interested in the topic. This standard has no value as a limitation, because it never limits anyone.
2. The First Amendment has already declared a winner in any conflict between the government and the citizen when it comes to freedom of speech: the individual wins, every time. Congress shall “make no law”, period. The fact that we have allowed this to be extraordinarily weakened over time is very much a problem of our own making. To go even further down this path is entirely the wrong direction.
I do not think it is a good idea to scoff at these kinds of challenges. Just the reverse. We must be ready with good answers to hard questions.
Oh, you're not clever enough for this matter.
Congress did "make no law". This is strictly a matter of burrocrats making suggestions.
Go on, show me the law Congress made. Can't do it, can you? Therefore all is hunky dory.
Ha! See, IANAL and I still understand the superpower of turning every question into a question of procedure!
I also can't find the "Ministry of Truth" function in the constitution in regards to what the federal government can do.
You're right, the First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law"-so how did this get applied to the states?
What is the procedural question you think you’ve raised?
Silly lawyer, trying to quibble your argument into intelligence.
Having just listened to part of Don Lemon's interview with Elon Musk, this kind of "reasoning" makes eerie sense to me now.
How did you manage that? Last I heard, St. Elon censored it.
The parts I listened to were on Larry O’Connor’s show, https://btv.social/1595908_6077/#cp . Starting at about the 47:00 mark is where Lemon asks Musk about advertisers on the X platform, and his question is so weirdly twisted I’m doubting he is actually capable of linking thoughts together. I hate to say that about anyone, but geez this guy …
And of course Don Lemon’s X account is there for all to see, and his interview is his top pinned post, so don't believe The View when they say his show has been "cancelled". There never was a show in the first place, it was just Musk doing Lemon a favor because he was posting on the X platform: https://twitter.com/donlemon
Well...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/18/elon-musk-ketamine-prescription-best-interest-tesla/
Maybe that would help Biden, too. I hear he's feeling pretty negative these days.
Is there another "legal blog" whose fans are partial to bigoted, autistic, antisocial, reckless, lying right-wing druggies?
Are you capable of saying anything intelligent, or coherent?
I think it might conflict with his Donepezil and Adderall doses.
The chutzpah to make this comment after the DOD IG report is both stunning and unsurprising.
Gormless.
I have a Dr. “Admiral” Ronny Jackson holding on line 1. Who was doing the fenny??
He's not an "Admiral" if you'd served in any kind of Military Organization (that Sailor Costume you wear on the weekends doesn't count) you'd know. Who was doing the Fentanyl? Hunter obviously, Addicts like to combine it with Cocaine, it's what killed John Belushi and eventually will kill Hunter, but hey (man!) it'll give Parkinsonian Joe another son to bring up when American Servicemen get killed.
Frank
Once an admiral always an admiral in your eyes I suppose?
Hunter was doing fenny in the trump White House? Tell me another, dipshit
Did you get demoted too, is that why you’re so touchy?
Shorter Martinned2: squirrel!
.
Do you believe people find you persuasive beyond the context of internet message boards? Does your livelihood, or do the interests of others, depend on your judgment?
He is not persuasive to you Arthur for the same reason it is not persuasive to a golden retriever; neither of you understand what he is saying or know what is going on. The only difference is that the retriever is usually house trained, and you are not. Yeah, of course you don't find any of this persuasive. You can't be persuaded by something that you lack the intelligence to understand.
You recognize that this is a fringe blog operated by the obsolete misfits of modern legal academia, catering to an audience of anti-government cranks, old-timey bigots of multiple flavors, religious zealots, and other disaffected malcontents . . . right?
This is a gathering place at which racists, Christian dominionists, gay-bashers, antisemites, misogynists, conspiracy theories, white nationalists, QAnoners, Islamophobes, white supremacists, militia members, theocrats, un-American insurrectionists, MAGA losers, and other culture war casualties huddle for warmth, much like the societal rejects at a Ron Paul rally, Opus Dei meeting, or Oath Keepers/Three Percenters conference.
This blog disdains modern America and the liberal-libertarian mainstream -- victors in the culture war -- in particular. It just can't stand all of this damned progress, reason, science, education, modernity, and inclusiveness. It is operated by and for people who think it's the 1950s and wish it were the 1830s.
Fitting in at this blog is persuasive evidence that someone is on the wrong side of history, the losing end of the culture war, and the weaker side at the modern marketplace of ideas. This is the afternoon AM radio of "legal" blogs and the Newsmax -- not even the Fox News -- of "academic" blogs.
Carry on, clingers.
Not all are as you list.
Radical is missing ...
We're carrying, we're carrying, we're putting the lotion on the skin, we're putting it in the basket, boy, if we ever get out of your Dungeon, you're in trouble!
Congress did “make no law”. This is strictly a matter of burrocrats making suggestions.
The federal govt has ONLY enumerated powers.
Under what enumerated power can the feds make "suggestions" to he "press" (media)?
People have power and people have rights.
The govt only has power. Enumerated Power
A “compelling” interest means merely that the judge/justices don't mind the government doing thing X.
I know a “compelling” interest when I see it, to paraphrase Potter, is all the jurisprudence boils down to.
Terms like "compelling interest" are a perfect example of the self serving nature of American jurisprudence. "Compelling interest" is an entirely subjective term. It amounts to saying "if it furthers an interest that the judicial class approves". Time and again 20th Century American jurisprudence is just the judiciary making up subjective standards that allow them to exercise arbitrary power over the law.
Yes, there are plenty of justices in the past who were much more accepting of censorship than recent Supreme Court justices.
Samuel Chase with his zealous enforcement of the Sedition Act of 1798
Oliver Wendell Holmes and his upholding of 20-yr sentences under the WWI Sedition Act (until his buddy Frankfurter turned him around a bit)
And there are plenty of less well-known justices who were in this suppressive tradition. The Court later weighed this suppressive tradition in the balance, and found it wanting. But they can revive it anytime they want.
Incidentally, in all the talk lately about who’s a worthy successor of Thurgood Marshall, at least Marshall was toward the pro-speech end of he spectrum, like his successor.
If only US law had some kind of coherent framework to analyse cases that sit between "this is not covered by the 1st amendment" and "strict scrutiny applies here so the government loses". Now it seems like the courts assign cases to one bucket or the other in a more or less arbitrary way.
Part of the problem is that lawyers are generally mediocre minds and have made the 1st Amendment needlessly complex. The government doesn't prohibit speech, it prohibits criminal conduct. For example, despite what every article you read on the subject says, you can yell "fire" in a crowded theater. What if yelling "fire" is a line in a play? Would that be prohibited? No. What is prohibited is falsely causing a panic in a theater regardless of the means. So, yelling "fire" to cause a panic is crime. It is not the speech. It is the underlying conduct that the speech furthers. This is true of anything. You could just as easily say it is illegal to set off fireworks in a crowded theater. Well, not it you are a heavy metal band with a pyrotechnic show. It is only illegal if you do so to further some underlying criminal act like falsely causing a panic.
When you understand it this way, these questions are not difficult. In the case of expressing skepticism of vaccines or masks, where is the criminal conduct that the speech is furthering? There isn't any. It is not illegal to think a vaccine is ineffective. Indeed, prohibiting someone saying so is just a backdoor way to make it illegal. If it is illegal to express a thought, it is effectively illegal to have it. Contrast that with putting up a video telling kids that if they eat a tide pod, they will get high. If I told a kid a Tide Pod was a way to get high and gave him one, would that be a crime? Yes, it would be. So, the government can censor my video doing that. They are not censoring the speech. They are prohibiting the underlying criminal conduct the speech is furthering.
That really should be the test for any government control of speech. Does the control have the purpose of prohibiting the furtherance of criminal conduct. If it doesn't, then the control is invalid. If does, then the government control is consistent with the 1st Amendment. Courts have instead created needlessly complex tests and standards that act as nothing except rationalizations for judges coming to the result they prefer.
A lot of wisdom in this post.
Such as?
All of it great post
Ah, but he's a lawyer, looking for the quibbling.
A lot of crap too.
Rock climbing dangerous too, can you ban videos encouraging kids to start learning rock climbing, ban depictions of kids smoking because the its illegal for kids to smoke?
Is it a crime to encourage kids to rock climb? Not last I looked. So, no you couldn’t ban those. Is it a crime to encourage kids to smoke? No it isn’t. It might be a crime to buy them cigerrettes but it is not a crime to say they should smoke or encourage them to do so.
Do yourself a favor next time and think a little harder and try to understand the argument better before you respond. You won’t look as stupid. At least try to engage with the argument in a sensible manner. As it is, you just gave examples of exactly what I am talking about. Own goals are never a good look.
So why is eating a tide pod more inherently dangerous than rock climbing? I'm sure you will find there are lot more fatalities among minors for rock climbing, and smoking is the law for kids, in fact I'm not of any specific laws against eating tide pods. Or as hypothetical went yesterday at the court, encouraging kids to jump off roofs, I know my son as a teenager jumped off a lot of roofs.
And please, don't worry about me, I'm not afraid of looking stupid.
Because a tide pod is poison. It will kill you. There are a lot more casualties from rock climbing that strychnine too. That isn't because strychnine isn't dangerous. it is because people don't generally eat poison.
You miss the point. If eating a tide pod won't kill you or harm you, then the government couldn't censor it. It could, however censor me telling kids to take strychnine.
Your response completely misses the point.
Yeah, so if I tell you to "Eat shit and die", can the government censor that?
Or how about a movie with detailed demonstration on hot wiring cars, or hacking home security systems?
Those are crimes, is the movie encouraging crime? Your premise has no limiting principle, and its completely unworkable.
There are people on this very thread that will tell you going unvaccinated is as dangerous as eating a tide pod, in fact worse because you can kill others if you get covid.
“Eat shit and die” ... most likely a true statement, so it can't be banned as dangerous speech.
Those sorts of things which show you how to commit crimes, are not banned because there are legitimate uses for them. Locksmiths pick locks too. Again, telling someone to commit a crime is not a crime. There is no underlying criminal activity. You continue to miss the point. My showing you how to pick a lock isn't a crime. Your picking a lock to steal something is.
Mere advocacy of unlawful activity is not necessarily a crime. That's Brandenburg. But telling someone to commit a crime can certainly be a crime; have you not heard of solicitation?
children are a protected class. That's why its not book banning, for removing a book that feature a tutorial for giving blow jobs to 30 year old men.
Get a better hypothetical
What version of To Kill A Mockingbird did you read.
"Part of the problem is that lawyers are generally mediocre minds"
Seems to apply to SC justices in some instances
In a lot of instances. Practicing law and trying cases is hard because that involves facts. Facts are hard. It is hard to figure out what is really going on in a case and just as hard to communicate that to someone be it a client, an adversary, a judge, or a jury in a clear and persuasive manner. What is easy is the law. Anyone with a rational mind and good reading comprehension can understand the law. Appellate judges are given the facts. The trial courts determine the facts. The appellate judges just have to apply the law to the facts given them. They are as a group the most overrrated minds in the world. They act like they are doing quantum physics or reading ancient Greek when in fact they are just engaging in basic logic and reading comprehension.
Not even mediocre, the ones who bubble up are sub-sub-par
Biden's average grade in college was a "C". In law school, his rank was 76 out of 85. A stupid and lazy man.
There are some people who do poorly in law school because they are bored by it and end up being great trial lawyers. The richest and most successful plaintiffs' attorneys never seem to go to the "top schools" or graduate at the top of their class. Then there are others who finish at the bottom because they are stupid and lazy. Joe Biden's entire life is an illustration of how being stupid and lazy does not prohibit someone from getting to the top in American politics.
That's the thing though. They want to criminalize unapproved thought.
That's their goal. People like Kenjati, want her peers in DC to have the power to silence you to further their interests.
Interests which they claim are shared by you. But we all know are not. The Federal Government serves itself and it's clients.
That ain't us.
Absolutely they do. What are they trying to stop? There is no underlying conduct they are trying to stop. They are just trying to stop people from expressing and ultimately thinking unapproved ideas, which is exactly what the 1st Amendment was written to prevent.
But that’s only half of it, because when the shoe shifts to the other foot, then what constitutes criminal thought will shift right back to the next administration.
The upshot is that people will never be left alone. NO ONE will escape being messed with. They will always be in our business, serial meddlers.
Maybe having a system of government that allows for government policy to swing wildly every 2/4 years isn't such a great idea?
It's a better idea than a system where the voters can't change the direction of the government when they want to.
Pity that those are the only two options...
Exactly Martinned! That's why the federal government must be reduced. The federal government was never intended to have a fraction of the power that it does. Each locale was supposed to be able to do its own thing.
And of the power that the federal government does have, the executive/bureaucratic branch was never intended to have such a large share of it.
To be fair, though, historically, these "wild swings" mostly only exist as bogeymen in the minds of cable news viewers. Meanwhile, in the bigger picture, the actual actions and policies remained 90% indistinguishable regardless of the party in power - and, increasingly administered by a permanent bureaucratic state untethered from any elected office. This dynamic has shifted slightly in recent years though.
It's more visible in foreign relations, that's true. Obama spends 8 years carefully negotiating a compromise with Iran, Trump spends 4 years trashing US-Iran relations, Biden spends 4 years trying to get the Iranians back to the negotiating table, etc. See also: US-Israel relations, international collaboration against climate change, US-Russia relations, etc. In all of these areas US policy changes on a dime whenever a different party takes over the White House, making the US a generally unreliable partner for its allies.
Perhaps the executive should not make promises via “informal arrangements” when the actual formality of the process was never completed through a treaty.
Permit me to make some *changes* to your remark:
"Maybe having a system of government that allows for government policy to swing wildly [every 2/4 years] *at rare intervals* isn’t such a great idea?"
We saw with Trump that many Federal institutions are unmoored from accountability, even the Executive kind.
How many times did Federal agencies mutiny and ignore President Trumps orders? They spied on him, entrapped him, slow walked his orders, ignored many, and once outright said they were The Resistance.
These things never swing back against the ruling class.
So you think civil defamation laws are unconstitutional? They aren't criminal. The Founders certainly did not think defamation suits were out of bounds. And harassment? While it may be criminal, but it's common for police to refuse to intervene. Are the victims unable to seek civil relief?
Again, it is the underlying conduct not the speech. The conduct is unfairly damaging a person's reputation. There is no actual speech that is tortious. What is tortious is the damaging the person's reputation. For example, I could say something like "Ken White fucks sheep.". Is that speech defamatory and therefore prohibited? No. If I am saying that as jest, it is not defamatory. It is only prohibited if I do it in a way that damages White's reputation by causing people to think he fucks sheep.
The logic applies just as well to libel and slander as it does to anything else.
There’s no necessary underlying conduct to defamatory speech. Speech doesn’t turn into conduct just because it causes damage.
I understand and agree with the sentiment throughout this thread that lawyers are always being too clever and judges have circumvented the constitution. That’s true. But unfortunately it’s also true that for any legal rule you can come up with, it will always be possible to come up with hard cases and subjectivity in how that rule is applied. That’s just how the world is and how language is. This doesn’t mean everyone is acting in good faith or that they don’t have morally repulsive views. Many do have totalitarian impulses, and they do (especially on today's left) want to police thoughtcrime and punish speech and regulate every other detail of how people live their lives. In addition to plundering everything they have. That’s as old as history.
Personally, I like to point out that the first amendment says “Congress shall make no law.” Not States. The principles of the founding dictated also that the vast majority of government matters were up to the states, including anything having to do with defamation. If 1A still only applied to the federal government then it seems there would be no conflict between defamation and 1A and no need to consider defamation as an exception.
Libel and slander laws prohibit the tortious damaging of a person's reputation. It is true that that is the one example of something that the only means available to do so is speech. That, however, does not mean the logic isn't applicable. Saying "Ken White Fucks Sheep" is not tortious. What is tortious is saying that as a means to damage his reputation. Same logic as with yelling fire in a crowded theater or saying that I own the Brooklyn Bridge. The speech only becomes criminal or tortious when it is used as a means to do something tortious or illegal.
It’s still not conduct, and neither is saying you own something you that you don’t.
Your logic doesn’t help solve anything. Yes, speech is only defamatory if it causes damage (well not really, there’s also defamation per se) to someone’s reputation (whether it was used “as a means” to do so intentionally doesn’t necessarily matter, just that it had that result). Statements are only fraudulent if they cause damage (Trump lawfare special exceptions notwithstanding). Firing a gun isn’t illegal or tortious, what is illegal is firing a gun as a means to cause unjustified harm to someone or having that effect intended or not. Crimes and torts can have elements, like intent, harm, causation. What is supposed to be the point of this observation?
“That really should be the test for any government control of speech. Does the control have the purpose of prohibiting the furtherance of criminal conduct.”
Ok. Let’s say it is a crime to fail to keep up with a new government vaccination schedule regularly updated by the CDC. Now under your standard speaking out against this or questioning a vaccine can be a crime too.
No. My telling you to do it doesn't further the activity. You don't miss it because I told you. The missing it is the criminal activity not my saying to do it. You totally misunderstand what I am saying. I don't know how to make it any clearer to you. It is just beyond your grasp.
You think you are smarter than you are.
"government control of speech. Does the control have the purpose of prohibiting the furtherance of criminal conduct"
So let's say a "government control of speech" takes the form of criminalizing that speech. That's what this would usually mean.
As long as the government's purpose here is to prohibit the furtherance of (other, nonspeech) criminal conduct, then it's OK, right? You didn't say it has to be effective at preventing the other criminal conduct, just that the purpose was to prohibit furthering it.
Res ipsa loquitur.
If the Justices are blind to the partisan ends that some of this suppression serves, then they are fools.
Regarding Navarro, Roberts should have written a long screed about the selective enforcement. Holder didn't get prosecuted.
That seems to reflect a tragic lack of confidence in St. Elon's ability to tell the government to F off.
Government: Hey Elon you have to censor this list of people we don't like.
Elon: I don't censor
Gov: Well Jack and Zuck did and all was well
Elon I don't censor
Gov: Nice company you have there. It would be a shame if we found some laws you're breaking. When can we stop by?
The notion that he might be breaking the law doesn't seem to bother St. Elon very much.
Not censoring not against the law.
It can be, outside the US. But I meant this more generally, regarding other companies he's involved in too.
Usually the idiots in this country think our legal system prevails over the entire planet, rather than simply within our territorial bounds.
Yeah.
Twitter has to censor atheism in Saudi Arabia.
Does it? Or did you just make that up?
Great post. Not one word about Elon Musk wasn't a lie.
The entirety of the outrage about this appalling government attack on the 1st amendment relies almost exclusively on words and dialogue and arguments invented by its critics and attributed to various parties, this merely being the most blatant example.
Your point gives the government an enormous benefit of the doubt that it doesn't deserve nor get in any other context. If the government calls up a media platform and says, "we would really like it if you would not print this", it doesn't get the benefit of the doubt of assuming that the platform would have not printed it anyway and didn't act at the direct behest of the government. No, if the government requests it, the government is censoring it and better have a legal reason for doing so.
‘Not giving the benefit of the doubt’ and ‘enormous, almost comical, levels of bad faith’ are not the same thing.
‘No, if the government requests it, the government is censoring it and better have a legal reason for doing so’
This is the sort of thing you have to say in the complete absence of evidence of even the mildest of actual threats or coercion.
To illustrate my point – there were two quotes that made me think, wow, they have actually caught the government acting coercively! Turns out the quotes were completely mangled to make them seem that way. You lot don’t get any benefit of the doubt, either, and there’s far more evidence of your dishonesty and lies.
See also: absolutely no mention of Tiktok in any of this performative outrage.
This is the sort of thing you have to say in the complete absence of evidence of even the mildest of actual threats or coercion.
Everyone agrees on the facts. The government requested these things be deplatformed and censored. That is established. We know what happened. The only issue is should the government have been legally able to do that.
To illustrate my point – there were two quotes that made me think, wow, they have actually caught the government acting coercively!
Being completely ignorant, you don’t understand what coerced means in this context. The government doesn’t get the benefit of hte doubt. Government action is considered innately coercive. Whenever the government asks for something in this context, it is considered coercive. We don’t have to find any threats. That is how the law sees it and should see it. The government has virtually the power of life and death over people. It does not get to ask nicely and pretend that it is not engaging in coercion.
It is so ironic that you are so concerned about “people not knowing the truth” and actually know next to nothing about the details of this issue. You didn’t even know how often pandemics occur. You are the perfect example of why we can’t allows censorship. Every idiot in the world thinks they know the “truth” and what needs to be suppressed.
'The government requested these things be deplatformed and censored.'
No, the government flagged things that they thought contravened sites' own policies. The sites were free to completely ignore them. No-one has presented a single scrap of evidence that they suffered any retaliation when they did.
'Government action is considered innately coercive.'
All actions are innately coervice. You're proving too much.
'You didn’t even know how often pandemics occur.'
You've managed to succesfully internalise and normalise your very own piece of misinformation! Well done!
No, the government flagged things that they thought contravened sites’ own policies. The sites were free to completely ignore them. No-one has presented a single scrap of evidence that they suffered any retaliation when they did.
Which is requesting that they be deplatformed and suppression of speech. There doesn't have to be retaliation you lying sack of shit. Again, you are lying here. Coercion in this context is the asking. That is how the law works. Everyone agrees on that. Stop wasting everyone's time lying. You are just pathetic. You have lost this argument five times over now. But you are too dishonest to just admit the truth and move on.
If it is, it’s the mildest most timid form of suppressoon I’ve ever seen. Jesus lads, put some effort into it. You're making the right-wing cranks do all the heavy lifting here.
Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be.
Dipshit thinks he is being funny when in fact he is just ignorant. It is not what I want the law to be. It is what the law is. How stupid can you people be? It is bad enough that you are ignorant and don't know what you are talking about. Can you at least not try to take pride in it?
None of what you said "is what the law is."
Executive privilege was involved in the Holder case. But not Navarro.
They aren’t blind to partisanship, though. They’re actively participating in it.
So my biggest concern is that your view has the First Amendment hamstringing the government in significant ways in the most important time periods.
So sorry the Federal government is inconvenienced, and hamstrung in suppressing political speech.
I mean, if your entire political philosophy rests on the denial of things like massive public health emergencies requiring clear lines of communication and the dangers in such circumstances of targeted campaigns of misinformation, I can see why you'd be a hardliner about undermining those things.
How many mistakes did our Public Health administrators make during Covid?
Hard to tell, there was so much bullshit about their evil nefarious conspiracies thrown around. What mistakes are they making now?
All of them?
No mistakes were made by our public health officials during covid nor did they offer any erroneous information - at least not according to the "science"
That is why it is important to suppress inconvenient facts. Otherwise the public might learn misinformation such as the covid vax effectiveness drops dramatically after 5-6 months, or that children have extremely low risk from covid or they might even learn the masking has equal effectiveness for reducing the transmission of a virus spread via aerosol as a virus spread via droplets.
Certainly cant have the population exposed to misinformation.
sarc
I am "a hardliner" about "undermining" the government's ability to shut people up. That's pretty much the core of "my entire political philosophy." You, on the other hand...
I know, right? = I am “a hardliner” about “undermining” the government’s ability to shut people up. That’s pretty much the core of “my entire political philosophy.”
You’re hardliners about insisting that if you decide something isn’t true, then it must not be true, and anyone who disagrees with you and points out that your actions are dangerous and your lies are damaging is attackng your freedom of speech. Your defence of your massive lies amount to posturing, playing the refs, and claining victimhood. You will happily strip other people of their rights, though, and claim that since it’s the peoples’ will then it’s perfectly fine.
What people like Justice Jackson and the various other idiots so concerned about “misinformation" don’t understand is that “misinformation” is only a symptom of the underlying problem of people not trusting the government. The best example of misinformation is conspiracy theories. There is a long history of scholarship that shows that the less the public trusts a government, the more prevalent and more outlandish conspiracy theories will be among the public. Conspiracy theories are rampant in the Middle East for example, where the governments are autocratic and generally despised and mistrusted by their populations. The storming of the Bastille is a great example of misinformation being believed by a public that didn’t trust and hated its government. The mob stormed the Bastille because the public falsely believed it was full of political prisoners. In fact, there were like four prisoners there all of whom were ordinary criminals. The public believed the misinformation because they didn’t trust the government.
So, if a government has a “misinformation” problem, the problem is that it has lost the trust of the public. The solution to that is to stop lying and regain the trust of the public. Then the public will stop believing the misinformation. The worst thing a government in that position can do is to suppress the misinformation. This just causes the public to conclude that the government has something to hide, and the misinformation is true. Our government, because it is run by morons who lie as a way of life, doesn’t even understand that it has lost the trust of the public much less know what to do about it. So, their solution is to suppress the “misinformation” which always ends up being “suppress anything that is embarrassing to the government regardless of its truth”.
Misinformation is free speech.
An example, the Covid vaccine prevents transmission.
Flimsy paper masks and your old T-shirt mask prevent transmission of Covid.
We should censor that right?
Oh wait that's good misinformation since its Gov? K. Brown logic
Of course it is. There is nothing illegal about being wrong. Even if you assume the government is correct in labeling something "misinformation" and isn't just labeling true but embarrassing facts as misinformation, the government still doesn't have the right to censor it.
My point is that the more they try and suppress information, the more the public will think they have something to hide and the "disinformation", whatever it is must be true. Why do so many people think the CIA was behind the Kennedy assassination, for example? Because the government refuses to release all the information it has regarding the assassination, and this causes people to rationally conclude there must be something incriminating there or else the government would release it.
Censorship isn't going to save them or make their unpopular ideas popular or wrong ideas right. What it will do, however, is totally destroy the public's faith in authority. That sounds good if you don't think about it very long, but it would in fact be a total disaster for the country and civilization itself. The fact is you don't know very much at all firsthand. You don't know anything firsthand about history, for example. It happened before you were born. The only way you "know" anything is because you trust in some authority to tell you the truth. If you stop trusting any authority, you will start believing whatever crazy thing suits your tastes. You can see this happening now. For example, a significant percentage of basketball fans under the age of 25 think Wilt Chamberlin's 100-point game was a hoax. Why? There is no film of it and the only evidence we have that it happened is the word of the NBA and a bunch of people who worked for the NBA. Since fans no longer trust the NBA for a lot of good reasons, some of them have stopped believing something that was a well-established historical fact. This is a benign example, but it illustrates the larger trend towards skepticism and ignorance. If you don't trust history books, because they were written by "white men" or whatever reason, why should you believe the Holocaust happened? It is not like you were there to see it. Why should you believe in the theory of relativity? Or that germs cause diseases? Or any of other thousands of pieces of information that we used to at least take for granted as being true.
It comes down to credibility. During COVID the Federal and many State Governments lost theirs. People willingly complied with the "15 Day" shutdown. Then it became political and people's good will went away. Now if something were to happen and there was a dire need to do that again, it won't happen because of the loss of credibility.
Sun - good points on censorship / Trust / credibility.
Far too much information labeled misinformation turned out to be true. How does the govt censors regain credibility when they continue to promote discredited studies. Its astonishing 3- 4 years later that people are still citing discredited studies because it fits their partisan views.
Is it the government's problem that some Americans are disaffected, gullible, downscale losers?
Any government has to deal with the reality that it will have people in its population like you Arthur. From what I understand you are a retired news editor in some nowhere town in Pennsylvania angry and bitter over your failed life. As you show every day on here, you are of low intelligence and possess very poor reasoning skills. Suppressing misinformation won’t make someone like you any smarter. There is really nothing to be done with people like you. You are only going to believe what you want to believe and God only knows what that will be. So, telling the truth won’t help with people like you. Nothing will.
Fortunately, however, you are at the bottom of the intelligence scale. So, most people can be reasoned with. Over time, the government telling the truth will cause people to rationally trust the government. Trust once lost is hard to regain but it can be regained with enough time and effort.
It is a fair question for you to ask what governments are supposed to do with people like you who lack the intelligence and emotional stability to think rationally. It shows a surprising amount of self awareneess on your part. It kind of makes the old monkey wonder if perhaps you have been getting some kind of professional help. I certainly hope you have. Unfortunately, the answer to your question is that there isn’t much a government can do to deal with people who are at the bottom of the IQ scale, especially when they suffer from the anger issues and emotional problems you suffer from. I wish I could give you better news.
You should stick with the MAGA rubes, the QAnon halfwits, the religious kooks, the drawling Republicans, the Federalist Society, Trump, the rural right-wingers, the Christian dominionists, the creationists, the white nationalists, etc. . . . they suit you.
You need to work harder on your anger issues. You also need to make some kind of peace with the fact that you are a loser and your life never turned out the way you wanted it to. Therapy can really help with that.
I have a great family, have had several fine careers, and am financially secure. My children and wife have advanced degrees. My side has won the culture war and will continue to shape my nation's progress against the stale, ugly wishes of the conservative losers and vestigial bigots remaining in modern America. I still socialize with people I went to school and worked with from the '70s, '80s, '90s, etc., although my early co-workers are dying off because I started my first career as a college sophomore.
The Stones, the Who, Bruce Springsteen, and a few others have brought joy to me for 50 years and I was lucky enough to have favorite bands that are still going strong. It would have been different had I been drawn to the Beatles, the Doors, Led Zeppelin, etc., but I expect to see all three of my favorites this year, and repeatedly. My band still plays occasionally. I also have enjoyed many sporting events and championships, some as a sports writer and others as a fan.
I have watched and enjoyed remarkable social, technological, medical, educational, and other progress throughout my lifetime. I never was attracted to childish superstition and have been healthy.
I have been fortunate enough to build a great life from a very rough beginning. I beat the odds handily. I also was fortunate enough to live in a United States that was improving in ways that helped me.
I don't like bigots. I dislike conservatism and superstition. But the great news is that our vestigial bigots, right-wingers, and religious kooks have been losing in the American culture war throughout my lifetime. My side has won and is winning. And so have I. This makes me content.
Other than that, though, great comment, clinger!
You need to STFU.
'What people like Justice Jackson and the various other idiots so concerned about “misinformation” don’t understand is that “misinformation” is only a symptom of the underlying problem of people not trusting the government.'
It really isn't, it's an actual tech problem exacerbated by advances in tech and the global nature of communication networks. Don't worry, governments don't show any signs of grasping this either.
'The solution to that is to stop lying and regain the trust of the public. Then the public will stop believing the misinformation'
Sprinkle some magic fairy dust around while you're at it. The main contender for the next presidential election claims he won the previous election. This misinformation is not being suppressed. A good chunk of his supporters believe it. The rest don't care. They're invested in the complete devaluation of truth and information, because it seems to suit them. When misinformation is intrinsic to one of the two political parties, they're never going to stop lying. It's working for them, or so they think.
It really isn’t, it’s an actual tech problem exacerbated by advances in tech and the global nature of communication networks. Don’t worry, governments don’t show any signs of grasping this either.
I guess that is why misinformation and conspiracy theories are a problem that just arose in the age of the internet right? Wrong. Misinformation and conspiracy theories have been around since there were governments. See the examples of middle eastern governments I give and the Bastille in the actual post. Did you read it? This has nothing to do with tech. The internet does nothing to make misinformation any more or less believable. At best it makes it circulate faster. Information was global and circulated accordingly since the invention of the printing press at least. There is nothing new about this.
Sprinkle some magic fairy dust around while you’re at it. The main contender for the next presidential election claims he won the previous election.
And why is that a problem? Because a ton of people believe him. Why is that? Because people don't trust the elections. If they did, no one would believe him. You assume that there is nothing to his claims. You trust the government, so it never occurs to you that anyone else wouldn't. Thta is nice and all but it just makes you a schmuck and allows you to avoid the underlying problem of why so much of the public disagrees with you. Like many people you don't fully comprehend how causality works. You think people believe it because Trump said it. No, people believed it and that is why Trump said it.
The rest don’t care. They’re invested in the complete devaluation of truth and information, because it seems to suit them. When misinformation is intrinsic to one of the two political parties, they’re never going to stop lying. It’s working for them, or so they think.
Of course, they say the same thing about you. You are right and they are wrong because reasons. Your solution is not to argue your case, that is beneath you. No, it is to just supress any idea you don't like. You don't agree with them and you own a monopoly on the truth and therefore, they shouldn't be allowed to state their opinion. It is remarkable that anyone could lack self awareness and basic reasoning skills to the degree that you do.
Of course, you would never abuse this power you want. Nope, it will only be used when people like you decide that the lies must be supressed. Because nothing shows how compelling a position is than the need to suppress any dissent against it.
'I guess that is why misinformation and conspiracy theories are a problem that just arose in the age of the internet right?'
If you have to guess that, then I obviously didn't say it, or even imply it.
'At best it makes it circulate faster.'
Wow, geez, ya think? You've clearly though long and deep about this.
'Why is that? Because people don’t trust the elections. If they did, no one would believe him.'
Circular logic.
'You assume that there is nothing to his claims.'
He's never presented a scrap of evidence to suggest otherwise, and is credibly accused of fraudulently working to overthrow the election under cover of those lies.
'No, it is to just supress any idea you don’t like'
You seem to think arguing against you is the same as suppression, that's the only way these comments make sense.
'Of course, you would never abuse this power you want'
What power? I don't want any power. I want people to respect the truth, but I suppose I might as well sprinkle fairy dust myself.
If you have to guess that, then I obviously didn’t say it, or even imply it.
Yes you did. Otherwise this wouldn't be a technology problem. Misinformation was just as big of a problem two hundred or three hundred years ago as it is now. The internet changed nothing. All you are left with is "but people know things faster now". So what?
‘Why is that? Because people don’t trust the elections. If they did, no one would believe him.’
Circular logic.
That is not circular logic. Is there any word that you do understand? The point is that idea already existed. People believed the election was fixed because all sorts of suspicious things happned like counting stopping in the middle of hte night and hundreds of thousands of ballots showing up out of nowhere. The election was so poorly run that it failed to convince a large section of the public, including many Democrats, that is was fair. That is the problem not that Trump pointed it out.
He’s never presented a scrap of evidence to suggest otherwise, and is credibly accused of fraudulently working to overthrow the election under cover of those lies.
He presented all sorts of evidence. You just don't find it compelling. Which maybe you are right. Others disagree. And that is your problem here. You want the government to ensure only approved opinions are expressed.
What power? I don’t want any power. I want people to respect the truth, but I suppose I might as well sprinkle fairy dust myself.
You are supporting government censorship here. You think you have both a monopoly on the truth and anyone you deem not truthful should be deplatformed and have their opinions suppressed. If you don't believe that, then you have given away the argument.
'Otherwise this wouldn’t be a technology problem.'
Only if we were, in fact, discussing misinformation through the ages, rather than misinformation in the modern tech age.
'People believed the election was fixed because all sorts of suspicious things happned like counting stopping in the middle of hte night and hundreds of thousands of ballots showing up out of nowhere.'
People believed the election was fixed because other people made up stories about the election being fixed and spread them far and wide, and their political leader gave them his stamp of approval. They all turned out to be lies. So a bunch of people told lies that other people believed, or claimed to believe because they're cynics and opportunists and hate democracy when they lose. That's the flow of causation right there.
'You just don’t find it compelling.'
Because it was all lies. I don't find lies compelling.
'You want the government to ensure only approved opinions are expressed.'
What I I don't want is factually-based statements and accusations to be treated as opinions, I want them treated as things that either can or cannot be proven with evidence.
'You are supporting government censorship here.'
I will happily denounce any censorship, when it is shown to have actually happened.
People believed the election was fixed because other people made up stories about the election being fixed and spread them far and wide, and their political leader gave them his stamp of approval. They all turned out to be lies. So a bunch of people told lies that other people believed, or claimed to believe because they’re cynics and opportunists and hate democracy when they lose. That’s the flow of causation right there.
You are certain those are lies and made up because it contradicts your narrative. Anything that does that must be "misinformation". Sorry but "this isn't true because I say so" isn't very persuasive. The point is not that those people were right. I really don't know. The point is that they were not crazy. They have a legitimate disagreement with you. And you and sadly a lot of other people cna't handle that. So, rather than engage and think about what they are saying and why, you just dismiss it all as evil "misinformation" and you being smart and they being dumb. It is just pathetic frankly. What a pathetic intellect you are.
"What I I don’t want is factually-based statements and accusations to be treated as opinions, I want them treated as things that either can or cannot be proven with evidence."
With you determining what hte "facts" are and what can and cannot be called a "fact" because you are smart and have the final word on that. Pathetic.
And the suppression is established and admitted by everyone. Continuing to lie and pretend that the government telling social media platforms to suppress disfavored points of view isn't suppression is pathetic at this point. It really is. You are a sad pathetic waste of a human being.
'You are certain those are lies and made up because it contradicts your narrative'
No I am certain they are lies because they do not stand up to actual scrutiny.
'With you determining what hte “facts” are and what can and cannot be called a “fact” because you are smart and have the final word on that.'
I certainy have the final word on what I myself determine are and are not facts, who has the final word for you?
'You are a sad pathetic waste of a human being.'
Well, gee, when you put it like that, suddenly reality itself becomes malleable and truth becomes a matter of volume and repetition.
"People believed the election was fixed because other people made up stories about the election being fixed and spread them far and wide, and their political leader gave them his stamp of approval. "
Are you talking about 2020 or 2016?
Trump certainly made the claim both times.
.
I think our current situation is closer to that in Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged. There, President Thompson & co. understood perfectly well where they stood with the public. Their solution? Project X.
https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/a/atlas-shrugged/summary-and-analysis/part-3-chapter-3
The only trust you lot have lost in government is in your ability to hold power while losing support from voters.
I’m an anarchist. How have I lost the ability to hold power when I never sought it?
That man 'seems' to be beating that man to death. Same misuse of the word 'seems'. You don't want to say Ketanji is just ratass stupid.
Yeah, it is like a sportswriter saying "Zack Wilson 'seems' to be bad at playing quarterback in the NFL". Yeah, it sure seems that way doesn't it? Poor writing and thinking in the furtherance of unnecessary politeness.
She knows full well what the Bill of Rights is intended to accomplish. She just doesn’t like it and has to find an artful way to pretend she’s somehow upholding it rather than shredding it. Given how plain the language is, any such attempt is going to sound pretty stupid. But these people aren’t stupid—they’re evil.
This is what we get when we put Affirmative Action hires in positions of importance.
That and crashed planes.
.
Okay, but before we panic, how likely is Justice Jackson to be in the majority on this?
I don't think anyone doubts how the three "liberals" (ha!!!) will come out. As for the "conservatives"... Alito & Thomas will vote to uphold the Constitution. Kavanaugh & Gorsuch -- who knows? Barrett -- I predict she'll join the "liberals," just like she did in Trump v. Anderson. Roberts -- see my comment above. (If he "could not be depended on" to stand up for our Second Amendment rights, what makes you think he'll stand up for our First Amendment rights?)
I don’t see Justice Jackson as calling for a new analysis. The idea that government can restrict speech if it has a compelling interest is well within clearly established precedent.
What Justice Jackson is suggesting is that a pandemic is a compelling interest. There hasn’t been a pandemic since modern First Amendment jurisprudence began, so it’s an issue of first impression and there’s no precedent on the subject to overturn. And it has support. Communicable diseases generally have been found to be a compelling interest in the vaccination line of cases. And it’s arguably analogous to other contexts, like publishing troop and ship movements in time of war, where a compelling interest has been found in the specifically First Amendment context.
Further, a longstanding history of FDA restrictions on what pharmaceutical companies are allowed to say about drugs, licensing requirements and other restrictions on talk therapy, and multiple other examples, all lend some support to the idea that there is a long-standing consensus that retrictions on specifically medical speech are more easily justifiable as compelling interests.
A pandemic is a compelling interest to do what? Part of the problem here is the utterly amorphous and subject nature of the term "compelling interest". That is the standard, so let's go with it. A pandemic is not an interest. It is an event. The compelling interest would be slowing the spread of the pandemic. How does controlling people's speech and suppressing debate about the effectiveness of vaccines do anything to slow the spread of a pandemic? I suppose you could say that if you suppress the speech more people will take the vaccine which would help suppress the pandemic. That is hardly certain here and whatever positive effect it would have, if it did, it entirely indirect. The measure must be narrowly tailored to further a compelling government interest. Banning debate about the safety and effectiveness of the government response to a pandemic is about the furthest thing from "narrowly tailored" I can think of.
To make your analogy about troop movements applicable, it would have to involve the government banning any discussion or debate of the effectiveness of entering the war or of sending troops at all or debate over sending them via convoy or by individual ship transit.
No, sorry but Justice Jackson is totlaly wrong here. There is no defending or fixing her argument.
Yes, ReaderY omits the other part of the formula: "narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest."
'How does controlling people’s speech and suppressing debate about the effectiveness of vaccines do anything to slow the spread of a pandemic?'
They didn't do either, and public health in the US was pretty much wrecked.
'Banning debate about the safety and effectiveness of the government response to a pandemic is about the furthest thing from “narrowly tailored” I can think of. '
Again, they didn't do that. Consequently, critiques of the CDC and the government response were swamped with utter bullshit.
Atheism is far worse, for it endangers souls.
Atheism is the ultimate hate speech and the ultimate misinformation.
Well let God sort that out.
What is the exact legal standing of a "soul"?
They absolutely did. They worked with social media platforms to ensure that the dissenting views were both suppressed and artificially discredited every time they were put before the public. That these efforts were not entirely effective, doesn’t make them any less of a violation of the 1st Amendment. If the local DA calls the newspaper and gets them to refuse to publish your letter to the editor, the fact that you can still make a flyer doesn’t make his keeping it out of the newspaper any less illegal.
You really don’t know how this works do you?
Why is this a bad thing?
Nothing was suppressed. Ohh, right, they 'discredited' obviously shit science, that's the same as supression. What children you lot are.
You continue to just yell words without no regard to the actual facts or what those words mean. Suppression is not defined by the effects. Suppression is the act of the government to restrict someone from speaking. It is suppression not elimination. Again, look at the example of the DA getting a newspaper to refuse to print your letter to the editor.
'Suppression is the act of the government to restrict someone from speaking.'
So far there has been no evidence of this actually occurring.
Yes there is. The government told the platforms to restrict and deplatform these views. That is government suppression of speech. Even the government admits that. Stop lying and pretending otherwise.
No, they didn't. You're literally adding words that weren't used to make your argument.
I mean, they've literally just got through literally suppressing a social media platform, just, what, two days ago? Nobody seems to give a shit.
No; the government asked the platforms to restrict and deplatform some views. That would not be "government suppression of speech" even if it were effective.
Yes it would be. The government has no right to ask that and their doing it is by its nature coercive. Where is the government's legal authority to request anything like that? It doesn't exist. And they know it doesn't. That is why they are not choosing to claim it wasn't government action. The argument is that it was appropriate restrictions not that it wasn't a restriction. Everyone admits that. Try reading the briefs instead of talking out of your ass.
The government in fact does have the right to ask it, and it is not "by its nature" coercive.
The government does not need 'legal authority' to talk.
And you are mistaken. The government's argument is that asking wasn't coercion and the first amendment does not impose any limitations on non-coercive jawboning by the government. The government's argument is indeed that it wasn't a restriction.
"and public health in the US was pretty much wrecked".
Well can't argue with you there, not only was there the pandemic, which wasn't going to be, and wasn't, prevented by lockdowns, masks, and ineffective vaccines, but then we shut down the entire preventative and routine care health system, while adding the burden of isolation to the mental health of susceptible individuals, and stunting child development for over a year.
Other than that in the US they either weren't implemented, were only partially implemented, and that you're lying about vaccine effectiveness, I gues you're right and over a million dead Americans was totally worth the culture war victory.
It is difficult to believe that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Scott Yenor have not become Volokh Conspirators yet. Maybe Prof. Volokh is waiting to get off the UCLA campus before he goes all in.
In contrast with say the Swiss, or Swedes - neither of which went stupid. The vaccine was sold as effective in preventing transmission - that was the lie.
The vaccines did, in fact, reduce transmission enormously.
"a pandemic is a compelling interest"
A pandemic is not an interest, it's a circumstance that might give rise to a government interest. In this case, the interest is educating the public about harmful medical information related to the pandemic. See my Brandeis quote below. The government can accomplish that through its own speech.
As for the FDA and other examples you give, those are all regulations of commercial speech. Certainly, a drug company selling a drug it claims cures COVID-19 (or anything else) is subject to government regulation. That's a far cry from discussion of what the best way to avoid catching COVID-19, or whether certain strategies or drugs might be helpful.
Yes. If you call a pandemic a "compelling interest", then any measure taken in response to it, no matter how oppressive and useless, is permissible. The interest is public health or controlling the pandemic not the pandemic itself.
'In this case, the interest is educating the public about harmful medical information related to the pandemic.'
One would hope that the government would do a *bit* more than that for even the smaller pandemics.
Which is so ironic, because the speech about the pandemic that got suppressed turned out to be the very speech that would have most helped us.
Here's the big hole in all this: giving the government permission to censor presupposes that the government is correct. And that is manifestly not the case. Government is among the least correct actors in our society at the moment.
Compare any government agency you care to a private corporation of equivalent size. The government agency will be unable to account for its money, enormously duplicative in its efforts, full of people with marginal levels of achievement and skills and enormously sensitive to political persuasion.
Now, you may say that most of those defects are rooted in the different mission of government, but I would respond with "so what"? It doesn't matter why it is that way, it just is. And being that way should cause you to put government literally last in line to censor anything.
IMHO, "the crowd" is our best shot at uncovering the real truth of things. Free speech works, if you let it.
Any time someone argues for censorship, the unstated assumption is always that they will be the ones doing the censoring.
Exactly. KBJ makes that presumption in her question:
“I understood our First Amendment jurisprudence to require heightened scrutiny of government restrictions of speech but not necessarily a total prohibition when you’re talking about a compelling interest of the government to ensure, for example, that the public has accurate information in the context of … a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic.”
In her mind, as shown by her question, the censorship is in service to “accurate information.” Yet some knew then and we all know now that so much of what Fauci & Co was peddling was wrong. You cannot start with the premise that what the government says is the truth and that any challenge is dangerous.
Great point, on that very subject they were wrong. Same with Hunter's laptop,
Modern First Amendment jurisprudence presumes there is no such thing as “accurate information” that government is competent/qualified to arbitrate.
'the censorship'
Nothing was censored. This, of course, is just the current manifestation of misinformation - that vast swathes of stuff was censored by the government, and despite but also because of this censorship, it spread far and wide and lots of people believed it, making it the government's fault that people took HCQ and believed the vaccine was deadly and/or implanted a metal chip.
DaveM 2 hours ago
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Which is so ironic, because the speech about the pandemic that got suppressed turned out to be the very speech that would have most helped us."
Good point - At the same time, a lot of the government speech was incorrect especially with the masking, and vaccine effectiveness.
It was not, in fact, incorrect.
Nige - a tremendous amount of the government positions on both masking and vaccine effectiveness was definitely incorrect.
Two & three years out, and you still dont have any understanding of the science.
As late as the summer of 2023, the CDC still listed approx 50 pro effective masking studies, at least 8 of which were completely discredited. (kansas county mandatenon mandate mask study being on the most prominent discredited study
‘a tremendous amount of the government positions on both masking and vaccine effectiveness was definitely incorrect.’
Not really. One or two officials overpromised on the vaccines, that’s it.
So, assuming they’ve really been discredited, and not just covid-truther ‘discredited' that leaves 42 proving it works. Good job. Makes it disgraceful they're not currently recommending it.
the CDC still listed approx 50 pro effective masking studies, at least 8 of which were completely discredited.
And??? How do eight bad studies make 42 others invalid?
The fact that a study is discredited does not mean that the opposite of what it found is true. It just means that it was badly done and can't be relied on to support its conclusions.
You don't seem to understand that.
It does not mean that other, well-done, studies that support those conclusions must be wrong.
How good are the remaining studies when 8 of promoted studies were discredited? Should that give you confidence in the quality of the others?
The cochrane study showed quite of few low quality studies reached conclusions not supported by the underlying data. Though it was interesting how many organizations attacked the cochrane review without addressing the merits of issues outlined by the Cochrane review.
'Should that give you confidence in the quality of the others?'
There's the sort of critical thinking skills I so sadly lack, apparently.
ReaderY 2 hours ago
I don’t see Justice Jackson as calling for a new analysis. The idea that government can restrict speech if it has a compelling interest is well within clearly established precedent."
That it may be within established precedent may be true. But that is some of the same twisted logic and morphing of the constitution that gave clearly established precedent that made the Kelo decision correct. It took a lot of twisting of the plain meaning of words "public use" through a series of precedents to achieve Kelo's result.
Same problem with Jackson argument
The pandemic is not an issue of first impression.
And putting restrictions on commerce, which is regulated isn't analogous to restricting peoples speech.
There is also absolutely no tradition in this country of assuming the government is right or has a right to make its own speech preeminent, in fact if anything the tradition is the opposite: its the peoples speech which guides the government to the truth.
Outside of shutting up someone who found out about D Day two days before and planned to blabber it, I see no such emergency. And certainly not an opposing viewpoint.
it wasn't the fucking bubonic plague. It was a virus which had a very high rate of survival even for those with risk factors. The media and the liberal art idiots who control govt freaked out and used it to take power. Vaccines for a virus that can easily mutate don't work (we don't have on for the common cold do we)? Idiot lawyers and many so called "public health" most of whom didn't take even one class in biochemistry screwed up...it wasn't a pandemic..
‘The media and the liberal art idiots who control govt freaked out and used it to take power.’
Are you living in an alternative universe where Trump wasn’t president during the outbreak? Also, one where covid didn’t kill over seven million worldwide.
Are you living in an alternate universe where any of us give a damn about which mindless clown pretends to run the country? Or an alternate universe where the simple math of 7,000,000 / 8,000,000,000 doesn’t come out to 0.0875% while the death rate of, say, the Black Plague was somewhere between 33% and 67%?
World War II was a compelling interest. There hadn't been a foreign attack on American territory since the War of 1812. Detention of potentially disloyal persons had a Civil War precedent. It's arguable that persons sharing the heritage of the foreign attacker might be a threat. No precedent to overturn. Therefore the internment of Japanese Americans was justifiable as a compelling interest.
There's always a compelling interest under the you can ignore Constitution during an emergency exception.
Just because the clowns in black robes did something in the past doesn’t make it right.
Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) (Brandeis, concurring)
You can of course disagree with Justice Jackson on this point. But she is not proposing a different framework for First Amendment analysis as Professor Volokh suggests in his post.
She is misusing the current standard to such a degree; I think you could fairly say she is rendering it meaningless and imposing a new one.
I mean, is this shocking? The Democratic party has gotten remarkably hostile to freedom of speech in recent years, having concluded that in most cases its own allies will be the censors, so it's hardly amazing that the latest Justice nominated by a Democrat would be hostile to freedom of speech.
Justice Thomas seemed OK with more censorship on social media as recently as 2021: https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/040521zor_3204.pdf
No he didn't. Do you even read the links? Or are you not smart enough to understand the difference between the government affirmatively censoring something and an individual politician blocking someone from their Twitter account?
He was suggesting that the government should restrict social media platforms free speech rights, i.e. their right to boot whoever they like off their platform.
No one should be surprised.
Something tells me she would have be singing a different tune had it been a Democrat speaking out against the Trump admin's pandemic policies.
Ah, the people who think that a person wearing a dress while reading a story is a horrible threat that has to be banned have opinions about hostility to freedom of speech.
So Jackson is taking an originalist approach. Suddenly you're all about modern precedent?
So, Eugene, your point is that Jackson is just taking First Amendment case law as it is, and actually asking what might constitute a “narrowly tailored” speech prohibition that serves a “compelling interest,” rather than treating strict scrutiny as effectively just a bar of any kind of content- or viewpoint-based restriction that doesn’t fall within one of the existing exceptions?
Get your nose out of the case books, Eugene.
Whether there is any merit to prying open “strict scrutiny” to permit more government coercion of speech on social media platforms is a separate question. But try to deal with the hypotheticals she presents, instead of clutching your pearls. Pentagon Papers may point in a particular direction on classified materials generally, but are we really prepared to say that the government can’t take more coercive action if a disclosure puts the nation at imminent, concrete risk?
"I understood our First Amendment jurisprudence to require heightened scrutiny of government restrictions of speech but not necessarily a total prohibition when you’re talking about a compelling interest of the government to ensure, for example, that the public has accurate information in the context of … a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic.”
That is what she said. There is a lot wrong with that statement. First, it assumes that the government has the final word on what is accurate and any time the government seeks to ensure accurate information its determination of what is accurate is automatically correct. Second, it assumes that restricting speech rather than the government giving the accurate information as it sees it is furthering the interest here. Why is it necessary to suppress dissent and debate to ensure “acurate” information? By that logic, the government could suppress anything that it considers inaccurate. Isn’t there a compelling interest in an educated electorate that has accurate information about the issues and candidates involved? I would think so. If there is, then by Jackson’s logic the government can not only put out what it sees as the truth about such issues as global warming, the guilty or innocence of Donald Trump, the wisdom of supporting Ukraine, or any other contentious issue, but also actively suppress dissenting opinions in the name of the public having “accurate information”. She is opening up a trap door out of which to drop the 1st Amendment out of the bottom of the Bill or Rights.
What about denying that God exists?
Why shouldn't the government stop the spread of THAT misinformation?
If denying that God exists is permissible, ALL misinformation is permissible!
You're about 140 years late, Nietzsche already publicized the death of God.
God outlived Nietzsche. So his pronouncements were not that impressive.
"There are some alive right now who will live to see my return." -- a dead guy 2000 years ago
When did God last say or do anything?
I don't understand why the plaintiffs did not raise the issue of the government being wrong. Masks don't work; vaccines for the young were dangerous; vaccines did not prevent transmission or infection, etc.
The crux of the matter seems to me to be that governments are made up of fallible humans--just like the rest of us. The beauty of 1A is that it allows a controversy to be wrangled with.
A glaring problem with lawyers/justices is that they seem to have less than a rudimentary grasp of science. And they are part of the establishment, so they have a vested interest in seeing the government as wiser than the average citizen.
Indeed, the government presupposes that these issues are controversial and subject to debate. If they were not, there would be no reason to suppress the dissenting opinions. For example, the government has no reason to suppress the view that the earth is flat. Why? Because few people actually believe that and the issue has moved beyond the need for further debate. The very need for the government to suppress the dissent shows that the issue is still in doubt and puts lie to the government's exclusive claim of accuracy.
'If they were not, there would be no reason to suppress the dissenting opinions.'
There was no suppression. The main controversy was how fucking stupid those dissenting opinions were, how rooted in grift, political opportunism and the conspiracy-prone mind-set of so many Trump supporters. You got to lie as much as you like about those things, got to persuade as many people as you could that vaccines were poison, masks didn't work, social distancing was a con, and really, hardly anyone was actually dying from covid. I don't know how many people ended up dead or disabled because of all that, maybe a few, maybe a lot, but it was more than zero.
There were valid critiques, dissenting opinions grounded in facts and expertise, but who cares about those? We're fighting the evil globalists who are culling us and implanting chips in our brains!
The government worked with media companies to ensure that disfavored views were denied a platform. That is suppression of speech. Everyone agrees about that. There is no debate about if this was a govenrment action and if it supressed speech. The only debate is whether that supression was legal. All the justices and both parties agree about that. So, take your halfwit talking points you got off of Democratic Underground or wherever and go post them somewhere where people are dumb enough to believe them. Not here where you are just wasting everyone's time.
Except they didn't. That misinformation spread far and wide, uninterupted and unmediated, often through major media outlets. The government could barely keep up. When people who spread misinformation routinely claim at the same time that the misinformation they are succesfully spreading unhindered is being suppressed, they're actually lying to your face.
So any government action to supress speech is not really "suppression" if anyone anywhere still holds a dissenting opinion. I don't think you really understand what the word "suppression" means.
Any accusation of government suppression requires some actual evidence of government suppression.
The government admits that it did this. The facts are known. This isn't a trial, it is an appeal. The government and the plaintiffs agree on what happened. They just disagree on how the law applies to it. Stop lying and saying we don't know what the government did. We do. The government told the court what it did.
Why would they deny what they did? They didn't do anything wrong, and it wasn't suppression.
Funny thing how those Trump supporters didn't support Trump's vaccine effort. Almost like you're talking about different groups of people, or perhaps you just have one all-purpose invective.
'I don’t understand why the plaintiffs did not raise the issue of the government being wrong. Masks don’t work; vaccines for the young were dangerous; vaccines did not prevent transmission or infection, etc. '
Misinformation works, if you really commit to it, and you;re really invested in it, you can persuade yourself these things are true. Masks work, vaccines are not dangerous, and vaccines reduced spread and severity of infection, and crucially, people who were vaccinated tend to avoid long covid.
Tragically, misinformation works.
Just look at the spread of atheism. That is misinformation in action!
It certainly survived a lot of actual suppression. By the way, which of the many gods is the actual real non-misinformation god? Just so I know?
Superstition-addled clingers spouting absolute fucking nonsense about supernatural, childish fairy tales being true may be my favorite culture war casualties.
Misinformation works, if you really commit to it, and you;re really invested in it, you can persuade yourself these things are true. Masks work, vaccines are not dangerous, and vaccines reduced spread and severity of infection, and crucially, people who were vaccinated tend to avoid long covid.
Your lack of self awareness and inability to even realize your own assumptions exist much less questions them is actually comical. Seriously, how old are you? Do they just not teach critical thinking in schools anymore? I am not sure whether I should be horrified, amused, shocked or what. It is just astounding how you think everything opinion you have is the absolute gospel truth and any other opinion "misinformation" and intellectually and morally illegitimate. I guess it is a good way to go through life in total ignorance without ever realizing it. There is that.
Another thing you guys do. As well as wailing about free speech, you rant and rave about critical thinking and other peoples' ignorance and get wildly offnded that people dare to call you out. It's like you've completely internalised the concept of working the refs.
Your response is nonsensicle. You keep talking about "misinformation" like you know what it is and are somehow immune from it yourself. It is not so much that you talk about misinformation in the abstract. It is that you are certain you know what it is in the particular. The problem with that never enters your mind. It is comical. Again, how old are you? Where the hell did you go to school?
That's odd, we've touched on some pretty specific examples of misinformation in these comments, are you sure you're mentally fit for this?
.
Is that a misuse of the Popsicle (R), Creamsicle (R), and Fudgsicle (R) marks?
The government never admits they were wrong.
In this case, they were criminally wrong.
They will not be held accountable.
I don’t understand why the plaintiffs did not raise the issue of the government being wrong. Masks don’t work; vaccines for the young were dangerous; vaccines did not prevent transmission or infection, etc.
Because they didn't have the evidence to support those claims?
I have to say, Justice Jackson's views are rather alarming...
It's precisely during the "once in a lifetime events" that the protection of free speech is most important. It's during the pandemics, during the civil wars, during the rebellions, when it is most at risk and simultanously most important.
To argue that freedom of speech can be infringed upon by the government for "once in a lifetime events" is a very dangerous concept that leads down the road to dictatorship.
The other thing is that there is nothing "once in a lifetime" about a pandemic. Pandemics come around once a decade like clockwork and COVID wasn't even a particularly severe one. The problem with any such claim of an issue being "the once in a lifetime problem" is that everyone's problem is the most important problem to them. So, what starts with something like "we are just going to torture people if there is a ticking time bomb" very quickly becomes torturing some cab driver the police picked up by mistake. Whenever someone uses the "but this is a special case" justification for something, you can be almost certain that giving into that special case will inevitably mean giving in in every case. Everyone's problem is the most important and special to them.
'Pandemics come around once a decade like clockwork and COVID wasn’t even a particularly severe one.'
Trying to remember the pandemics in the 2000s and 2010s that each killed seven million worldwide. The 1990s? The 1980s? Guess we're so used to them we hardly notice!
We get a pandemic about every ten years. The one before COVID was H1N1 in 2009. It killed about a half a million people world wide, about half of which were under 18. Before that was SARS in 2003. It was a small one and only killed about 1000 people. Before that was the Hong Kong Flu from 1968 to 1970. It killed an estimated four million people worldwide.
You seem to not know much of anything. What you do know seems to be misinformation. You should work on that.
You didn't seem to read my full comment, or else you decided to edit it yourself on the fly so you could produce things that are not counter-examples to what I said as if they were.
Four million people in 1970 is a higher percentage of the population than COVID, even accepting its inflated death numbers inflicted. More importantly, 1970 is within a "lifetime". So, pandemics and ones worse than COVID are not a once in a lifetime thing. Are you just 12 and think the world began in 2000?
'is a higher percentage of the population than'
Oh, is it now. It's still three million less than covid. But four million people is a lot, one of the worst pandemics in history, and yet it was five decades ago, so we hardly get pandemics like those once every decade, eh?
You could have mentioned HIV/AIDS, you know. But the thing everyone remembers about that was the complete refusal of the government to even acknowledge it until it was too late.
7 million is not "inflated." 7 million is a lowball figure; it's only actual established deaths, rather than excess mortality.
"Established deaths" is based on anyone dying of any cause who tested positive being treated as "covid related". The government literally paid counties to classify their deaths as covid related. The death toll is wildly overstated.
Is there any four year old lie you people won't tell? You must be one of those idiots who still wears a mask while driving alone. At this point, COVID is a cult for many people on the left. It was the only time that you had any meaning or power in your pathetic lives.
'The government literally paid counties to classify their deaths as covid related'
If the reason people believe lies is beause the government censors them, then how come you believe this uncensored lie?
'At this point, COVID is a cult for many people on the left.'
Covid is a disease that is still killing thousands of people. You see how succesfully spreading misinformation completely failed to actually deal with the reality of covid?
We have some sort of viral scare just about every election.
"You never let a crisis go to waste." - Rahm Emmanuel
And every problem is a "crisis" to someone.
The right certanily didn't. It really capitalised on the opportunity to spread as much misinformation as it could!
Because everything that you disagree with is "misinformation". Funny that.
Again, you are pathetically reliant on putting words in other peoples' mouths as well as obvious misreadings of the things they do say. Funny, that.
No one is putting words in your mouth. What is happening is I am forcing you to defend the assumptions and logical implications of what you are saying. Since you never learned how to think and argue, you don't like that very much. You are used to just talking out of your ass and everyone nodding along and agreeing. I am actually doing you a favor and making you smarter if you would bother to pay attention and think about it a bit.
No, you just think I'd be easier to argue with if those were my assumptions and those were the implications. They ain't. So, instead, we get another rant about what an awful person I must be.
You don't even know what your assumptions are. You are just mouthing leftist talking points. No one is more suprised than you when someone dissects what you are saying.
I will be very surprised if you manage to ever directly address a single thing I say let alone dissect it.
Government knows best during the once in a lifetime event was the rationale for not interfering with FDR's executive order locking up Japanese Americans. The Korematsu decision didn't hold up well.
Censoring non-government approved speech is a far cry from concentration camps, and the pandemic was not WW2, but the justification is the same in both.
By the way, we all need to eat our steady diet of government cheese. It's good for you and tastes fine, the government says, and who are you to say otherwise.
Honestly? My Aunt used to qualify for that cheese, we'd trade with her for other groceries. It actually is the good stuff. Basic cheddar, but quality.
As much as people like to say that covid was a once-in-a-lifetime event, I call that wishful thinking
It's only a matter of time until the next pandemic hits.
Yeah, and hopefully the world's governments won't go batshit crazy when the next pandemic hits. We'd literally have been better off if they had just ignored it, except for developing and merely offering the vaccine to people who wanted it, without compulsion.
Do you oppose mandatory vaccinations for children (measles, etc.)?
Do you oppose mandatory education laws for children?
Do you oppose child neglect laws (parents who refuse to provide eyeglasses, dental care, proper nutrition, etc.)?
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Being disaffected, antisocial, autistic, and bigoted only explains so much . . .
Whereas Arthur-the-all-knowing and beneficent and never wrong, can rely on the cherished priesthood to carry out all good works in the name of almighty Government.
You invoke CPS for trivial matters, when the truly horrifying child abuse is exactly what they ignore. It's understandable - dealing with real monsters is scary, even dangerous. So by all means, beat down someone over eyeglasses and dental care. Those parents can be intimidated, and that's got to feel good when you've failed those other children.
You want to defend the "right" of a failing parent to refrain from providing eyeglasses to a child who needs them, or dental care to a neglected child? The "right" of a substandard parent to deny a child an education?
What the fuck happened to you?
It doesn't matter so much, I guess. Your betters will handle the situation. You get to whine and whimper about it as much as you like, though, clinger.
Do you realize how like Trump you are in temperament? You have all the depth of character he does.
Arthur,
You need to work on your anger issues. And you need to take some responsibility for being such a loser. It is not anyone’s fault but your own, your career failed and your wife left you and you are stuck poor living alone. Notes from Underground was not written as a how to manual you crazy bastard.
Do on-the-spectrum, bigoted, right-wing misfits genuinely believe that they are the winners in modern America, or are they just figuratively flashing middle fingers at better Americans with Trump, the Federalist Society, the Republican Party, and this blog?
'We’d literally have been better off if they had just ignored it'
When you have completely given up on even bothering to pretend to care about actually dealing with real-world shit, and then get mad when everybody else thinks you're a fucking twit. This, by the way, is how you reconcile being aligned with people who actively denied there was a pandemic and who claimed the vaccine was deliberately used to poison people, and those people were Trump's base, so toplacate them, with one significant exception, he *tried* to ignore it and dismiss it and downplay it, and since he was the guy you voted for, that has to have been the right thing to do!
Because of the Internet, online misinformation like denying that God exists can spread to millions in a second.
How can we stand for the spread of disinformation like that? Shouldn't the government do something about it?
I know you believe you're being clever but juvenile reverse psychology or appeals to hypocrisy don't work outside playgrounds and school yards.
That's none of the business of any government in this country. See the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment.
OK. Let's change it up a bit.
Thalidomide is a perfectly safe drug, which controls morning sickness and anxiety in pregnant women.* The government has a compelling interest in making sure it is widely available and used. Accordingly, no one may make any statement calling into question its safety or possible harm to fetuses. Anyone who does is subject to imprisonment.
Do you have any issue with that?
(*This was the view of many governments in the 1950s and early 1960s. It actually is still used to treat some cancers. But it is now known to cause severe birth defects when taken by pregnant women.)
Seemed little was accomplished yesterday other than Justice Jackson disclosing some lacunae in her thinking.
I was stunned.
Other than that, I sense that with this case, as with Net Choice, the Court will not be unhappy to hasten the matter on its way. They will not want to wander into the weeds (witness hazards described here) and will allow a record to be built in the courts below.
This is what has happened as a result of allowing litigants to use the Supreme Court as if it were a traffic court.
This exchange near the end might foreshadow a narrow ruling that sidesteps the almost impossible task of drawing a line between encouragement and coercion:
JUSTICE GORSUCH: -- what -- we hear
that in every universal injunction case, but
your clients are your clients. They're the only
ones complaining. And it's their case. It's
their controversy. And, normally, our remedies
are tailored to those who are actually
complaining before us and not to those who
aren't, right?
MR. AGUINAGA: Your Honor, and if you
have that concern, we're completely fine if you
want to limit the injunction to the five
platforms as to which we were able to get
preliminary discovery. That's completely fine
with us. If you want to limit just to the seven
plaintiffs, also completely fine, Your Honor.
I think the most important takeaway in
this case is that the Court has to say something
in our favor on the merits. The government
can't just run rampant pressuring the platforms
to censor private speech.
"The government can’t just run rampant pressuring the platforms to censor private speech."
Wanna bet?
Sounds like common sense speech restrictions to me.
I mean the first amendment is no more sacred than the second, right?
When the government calls up a social media platform and says "It would be a great idea if you censor that", it isn't really suppression. That is the Democrat talking point. I am not kidding. And the low sloped forehead crowd are as they always do, eating it up.
It's Democratic, not Democrat, you half-educated, bigoted stain.
Deputy Assistant Director of Consumer Laundry Product Safety to PR department of Z (formerly known as InstaTok).
"It would be a great idea if you take down videos of idiot teenagers daring each other to do the Tide pod challenge."
1st Amendment violation? Yes or no?
I agree with Justices Frankfurter, Rehnquist, Breyer, and now Jackson that one expected or permitted to control and dominate does indeed benefit from various tools -- including an army, a navy, hoards of employees, restrictions on speech, and unilateral unauthorized retaliation against members of the public for failing to restrict speech -- which can be used to, well, control and dominate. Accordingly, I answer "yes" to the hypothetical above which rhetorically asks "Is it OK for the President to demand that social media platforms, newspapers, and other restrict speech, on pain of executive retaliation (e.g., antitrust enforcement), so long as Congress isn’t making a law to do it?" When making that "yes" answer, I note that Congress is empowered to vote an end to the power of a President who appropriately or inappropriately uses any mechanism of control and domination.
As I hinted earlier today, there is a tendency both to wrongly believe that a President is not a commander-in-chief who during his rule has a near-absolute power to dominate and to foolishly believe that _any_ government is "good" and seeks to achieve only truly altruistic ends.
The transfer of control from self to others is meaningful. By transferring control from ourselves to a Congress, a President, and a Court, we accept that we are protected only by those guardrails found in our Constitution which Congress and the President jointly recognize: knowing this, our founders wisely drafted the Bill of Rights as an addendum to the transfer of control.
The conclusion of the first and third paragraphs is the same. Congress can order, but in practice cannot force, an errant President to vacate office: only the Second Amendment truly guarantees proper interpretation of the First Amendment.
The government has a right to speak as well as people do. Well, it inherently has the power to speak, and it often does on matters it doesn't have the authority to enact or enforce legislation for, at that.
That is why I have had so little concern of the government encouraging social media companies to do something about 'disinformation'. The government speaks on so many issues on so many platforms it owns, that it certainly isn't restricted in doing that. If the government printed a press release arguing that X is true or Y is not true and sent it a bunch of newspapers with a note that says, "You should inform your readers of the truth of X and Y," is that supposed to be a problem under the 1st Amendment?
I just found the Holder quote about Ferguson,MO
Holder promised, “We are prepared to use all the power that we have . . . to ensure that the situation changes there.”
And it did, it got much worse and you can blame Obama and Holder and 'all the power that we have"
Justice Jackson's position is ironic considering that, in the case of COVID-19, the government was the primary purveyor of misinformation.
Wouldn't it be nice if the end of Covid as a global health emergency meant that people would also stop talking nonsense about Covid?
Nonsense such as that COVID didn't originate in a lab? That Fauci hadn't steered funds to that Chinese lab to do experiments so dangerous they weren't allowed in the US? That mass-masking worked? That the vaccine was thoroughly tested in just a few months and proven safe? That it would stop the spread of COVID?
Every one of those was proclaimed by some government official, and every one of them has been proven false. If you don't know that, you've been browsing the internet with blinders.
Oh, wow, has the lab-leak theory been incontrovertibly proven correct again? It's been ages since the last time.
'and every one of them has been proven false.'
Weid how you don't mention the complete lack of mountains of bodies of dead from the vaccines or the eternal lockdowns or all paper money replaced with electronic and also the chips and the Great Reset and God knows what-else.