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Two Posts on Irish-American Politics and History, and its Lessons for Today
St. Patrick's Day is a good time to re-up my posts on what can be learned from the declining political significance of Irish-American identity, and whether Hispanics are following the same path of assimilation as the Irish did.

Happy St. Patrick's Day to all who celebrate!
It is, I hope, an appropriate time, to re-up two posts on the Irish-American politics and history:
- "The Declining Political Significance of Irish-American Identity," Mar. 17, 2023
This post describes how and why the political salience of Irish-American identity has declined enormously over the last century, and what can be learned from that experience. An excerpt:
Today is St. Patrick's Day. And tonight, Irish-Americans across the country will be gathering to toast their control of the highest political office in the land. After all, Joe Biden is only the second Irish Catholic president of the United States. For their part, millions of WASPs are seething about the loss of their political hegemony to the Irish. St. Patrick's Day celebrations are a painful reminder of their humiliation. Police forces in major cities are on alert for possible ethnic riots.
OK, actually nothing like that is happening! In reality, very few Americans care that Biden is an Irish Catholic. Even fewer fear that he is somehow promoting Irish interests at the expense of WASPs….. Political conflict between Irish-Americans and WASPs has almost completely disappeared….
It wasn't always so. In the 19th and early twentieth centuries, political antagonism between Irish and WASPs was ubiquitous, sometimes rising to the level of anti-Irish rioting by nativists. There was also substantial discrimination and social prejudice against the Irish….
How did this change come about? The story is long and complicated… But one crucial factor was that most Americans came to realize that the differences between Irish-Americans and other groups were far less significant than previously thought, and also that these ethnic and religious divergences should be downgraded in the name of universal liberal principles.
2."Are Hispanics Following the Path of the Irish?"Jan. 1, 2024
This post comments on Noah Smith's insightful piece arguing that Hispanics are following the same path of assimilation as Irish-Americans did in earlier generations. I think Smith is largely right, but offer two major caveats. Here is an excerpt:
Hispanics are by far the largest American immigrant group of the last several decades, and also the focus of the most extensive nativist concerns. Immigration restrictionists contend that Hispanic immigrants increase crime, undermine American political institutions, and cannot or will not assimilate. In a recent post, prominent economic policy commentator Noah Smith compiles evidence that these complaints are largely misplaced, and that Hispanics are in fact following a trajectory similar to that of Irish-Americans in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries….
Today's fears of supposedly violent and unassimilable Hispanics are remarkably similar to the nineteenth century stereotype of brutish, un-American Irishmen…
In [his]… article, Smith compiles evidence that the concerns about Hispanics are largely false: they are in fact rapidly assimilating, quickly increasing their wealth and income, and have significantly lower crime rates than native-born Americans (a point that applies even to undocumented immigrants). Most of this evidence is well-known to students of immigration policy. But Smith does a valuable service in compiling it in one relatively short and easily accessible piece….
I would, however, note a few relevant caveats to Smith's thesis. First, it is not entirely true that Irish and Hispanic immigrants "were mostly working-class folks who came for mainly economic reasons." In reality, many Hispanic immigrants were and are refugees from oppressive socialist regimes in Cuba, Nicaragua, and (most recently) Venezuela. Some others have fled repression at the hands of right-wing dictatorships….
A second caveat is that Hispanic migrants are a much more diverse lot than the Irish were. They come from a variety of different nations and ethnic groups. This makes generalizations about them more difficult….
Finally, while Irish immigrants arrived in an era when there were few restrictions on European immigration, many Hispanic migrants are undocumented. Today, there are an estimated 7 million or more undocumented Hispanic immigrants in the US, which accounts for some one-third of all foreign-born Hispanics, and over 70% of the total undocumented immigrant population.
For obvious reasons, lack of legal status reduces migrants' incomes and educational opportunities, and impedes assimilation. The existence of this anchor makes Hispanics' progress look even more impressive than it would be otherwise. But, unless immigration policy changes, it is likely to continue to slow down the assimilation process highlighted by Smith.
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1/2 Irish 1/2 Jewish (the Good Half), Love Irish Whisky, especially if someone else is buying, Whoa!
and most of your "WASP"s are "Scotch-Irish" as were my Irish Ancestors (no Queenie, No "Black Irish") which I didn't know until recently, and yes, when I was younger, I was all in to the IRA Bullshit, until I realized that Ireland had been an Independent Republic since 1937
Frank
3 million Irish immigrants over 62 years under an atmosphere of strong pressure to be patriots and assimilate vs 3 million completely uncontrolled illegals a year under an atmosphere of the US is a horrible oppressor that stole from you and you are entitled to everything.
Yup. Totally equivalent.
1) The mass wave of Irish immigration was during the potato famine, when a couple of million Irish people came within a decade. That was about 10% of the U.S. population at the time — the equivalent of over 30 million coming in a decade today.
2) This "patriot/assimilate" vs. "horrible oppressor" dichotomy is something literally only in your head and Fox News.
'under an atmosphere of strong pressure to be patriots and assimilate'
Shite on that.
'under an atmosphere of the US is a horrible oppressor that stole from you and you are entitled to everything.'
Echoing arguments that were being made contemporaneously about the Irish.
You have a point about the volume and duration but it's somewhat weakened when expressed as percentages of the total population.
re: "under an atmosphere of strong pressure to be patriots and assimilate" is simply false. If you read articles of the day, you'll see nearly identical pressures to inhibit assimilation. You're going to have to present a lot more evidence to support that thread of your argument.
>The mass wave of Irish immigration was during the potato famine, when a couple of million Irish people came within a decade.
6 million Irish came in total since 1820. Half that now come in illegally per year into a much more crowded country. Not to mention Irish are/were far closer culturally.
Irish for all practical intents look identical to other whites and eventually can blend in as white while the trend, driven largely by the left, is to increasingly separate different looking peoples into their own category.
>This “patriot/assimilate” vs. “horrible oppressor” dichotomy is something literally only in your head and Fox News.
Are you saying that the US and the white Anglo man as an oppressor is not the popular narrative in leftwing proillegal activist and academic circles these days? lol.
'Not to mention Irish are/were far closer culturally.'
I just don't know where to start with this. I'm trying to imagine how anyone can claim with a straight face that Mexicans and Latinos have little in common with the US, culturally.
'Irish for all practical intents look identical to other whites and eventually can blend in as white while the trend,'
'while the trend, driven largely by the left, is to increasingly separate different looking peoples into their own category.'
Have you any familiarity with US history? At all? Also, do you honestly think that racism is merely people of different races and backgrounds being different from each other?
'Are you saying that the US and the white Anglo man as an oppressor is not the popular narrative in leftwing proillegal activist and academic circles these days?'
You're not exactly proving them wrong, if so.
This is telling on yourself.
>I just don’t know where to start with this. I’m trying to imagine how anyone can claim with a straight face that Mexicans and Latinos have little in common with the US, culturally.
I never said they had little in common with the current (US). They do have a lot in common with a decent chunk of it since its been rapidly transformed by immigration even over the past couple decades. But that doesn’t mean continuing unchecked balkanization is a good thing.
>Have you any familiarity with US history? At all? Also, do you honestly think that racism is merely people of different races and backgrounds being different from each other?
Put a 2nd generation Salvadorean next to a white man whos family has been in the country for generations. Then put this white man next to a 2nd generation irish. Pretty sure even someone from the 1820s would have a harder time telling the latter apart than the former.
>You’re not exactly proving them wrong, if so.
Right wrong this is the narrative they’re peddling and it doesn’t make for smooth assimilation when you think of your hosts as the enemies.
'I never said they had little in common with the current (US)'
Well back in the day they were regarded as impoverished, ignorant, superstitious, drunken, violence-prone peasants who bred like flies so I don't think they were THAT culturally attuned to the US.
'Put a 2nd generation...'
I have no idea how this paen to homogeneity is supposd to be responsive. You realise the US was built on some of the most savage and brutal systems of racial categorisation in the modern world, right?
'and it doesn’t make for smooth assimilation'
Xenophobic hatemongering and hysteria is probably the least conducive thing in the world to 'assimilation.' But oddly enough it's something migrants have been overcoming for centuries.
>Well back in the day they were regarded as impoverished, ignorant, superstitious, drunken, violence-prone peasants who bred like flies so I don’t think they were THAT culturally attuned to the US.
You know maybe there was some truth to that and they triumphed by bettering themselves rather than the others changing their mind and accepting them for what they were back then like you want us to believe.
>I have no idea how this paen to homogeneity is supposd to be responsive. You realise the US was built on some of the most savage and brutal systems of racial categorisation in the modern world, right?
You question implicitly asked me for reasons why they would more easily blend in I gave you an answer.
>Xenophobic hatemongering and hysteria is probably the least conducive thing in the world to ‘assimilation.’
Agreed. You should tell your buddies to knock it off with the US and white man blows nonsense.
>But oddly enough it’s something migrants have been overcoming for centuries.
I'm not sure where these absurd notion you and Ilya parrot that every immigration story in history has been an unqualified good thing. First of all 'good' in this case is a matter of perspective. From the pov of the state and host groups there have been plenty of bad immigration movements throughout history.
Yes, Irish immigrants were genetically and culturally quite similar to the British who founded the USA. Mexicans are not.
That may indeed be a narrative in left wing academic circles. It has nothing to do with actual immigrants, legal or illegal, though.
Not *all* the Irish assimilated right away. Or, rather, there were some great immigrants from Ireland, but there was also a more turbulent element which, depending on how you look at it, either didn’t assimilate or else assimilated to the wrong kind of America.
This is a good day to honor all the great Irish-Americans, including of course those who spilled their blood for their country. They also helped build the country (sometimes literally), and contributed to the professions and generally all walks of life.
But for many Irish, let’s say not so much that they didn’t assimilate, as that they assimilated into the wrong culture.
The Irish immigrants were among the most enthusiastic backers of the [name of political party omitted], which appeased slavery, promoted racism, and was often into political corruption. In the Civil War, there were Irish war heroes who fought for the Union, and there were also (for example) the draft rioters.
Today is a good day to cheer that the good ultimately prevailed over the bad and we get to celebrate many Irish-American heroes and leaders, like the Civil War’s Irish Brigade, for example.
I'm curious: Have any social-science researchers looked into variation in things like income, SAT scores, education level, etc., among white people with various ethnicities—say, people with Irish or Italian or Polish surnames?
Since any difference in such outcomes could only be the consequence of lingering systemic racism, do we need government programs and diversity initiatives to remedy this discrimination?
The author uses the ridiculous and illogical term, "undocumented" to refer to illegal aliens. Because they have come to the US illegally, there are no missing documents they can obtain that will make them legal immigrants. This inaccuracy is generally reflective of the low intellectual fire power of Mr. Somin.
That's right. If they applied for asylum, then they are documented. Somin is a shill for the invaders.
I thought the post was going to be about The Last Hurrah or Daley, and about vote fraud and corruption, a very current topic.