The Volokh Conspiracy
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Telling Officials "You Will Live to Regret This" Wasn't Punishable Threat or "Intimidat[ion]"
when in context the statement just expressed "an intention to file a complaint against the conduct of government officials."
From Coffeeshop, LLC v. Alcoholic Beverages Control Comm'n, decided Monday by the Appeals Court of Massachusetts (Justices William Meade, Sabita Singh & Paul Hart Smyth):
At 7:10 P.M. on Saturday, September 29, 2018, members of the Cambridge police and fire departments arrived at the plaintiff's business for an enforcement matter regarding its use of candles. After observing five to ten lighted votive candles in glass on the bar and tables, the officials spoke with Courtney and Dietrich [then-owners of Coffeeshop, a wine bar], who each recorded most of the interaction.
The officials instructed Courtney and Dietrich to extinguish the candles. Courtney refused and demanded that the men show her the text of the laws that the plaintiff's use of candles violated. The officials attempted to read aloud a law purportedly governing the use of the candles; Courtney interrupted them and said that the law in question was inapplicable, which as discussed below is correct.
As the conversation continued, the group moved outside. One of the officials then called a supervisor, who arrived at the premises at 7:35 P.M. While Courtney spoke to two of the officials, the other officials returned inside the premises to shut down the establishment. Once an official asked an employee to turn the music off, Courtney relented and extinguished the candles "under protest." After she extinguished the candles, Courtney asked the officials for their business cards or identification. As they were leaving, at approximately 7:53 P.M., Courtney stated "you will live to regret this."
On October 12, 2018, the Cambridge Licensing Commission (board) issued a notice of disciplinary hearing regarding the incident, charging the plaintiff with (1) a fire safety violation, (2) hindering an investigation, (3) intimidating a witness and (4) threatening a public official. The board found the plaintiff in violation of all the charges against it and ultimately imposed a five-day suspension. The plaintiff appealed.
After a hearing that spanned six days, featured testimony from nine witnesses, and included a total of seventy-five exhibits, the ABCC reversed the finding of a violation on the first charge. It ruled that the board had charged and violated the plaintiff for "a section of law pertaining to the use of candles with portable cooking equipment," and it was "undisputed the candles at the [plaintiff's] establishment were not used for portable cooking equipment." Accordingly, such a violation could not stand. However, the ABCC affirmed the board's findings as to the violations of interfering with an investigation or enforcement of the law, intimidation of a witness, and threatening an official, ultimately upholding a three-day suspension as related to those violations. A judge of the Superior Court affirmed….
The hindering charge was premised on the owners' discussion with the officials concerning the validity of the enforcement action. The ABCC found that the substantial evidence supported the assertion that Courtney specifically hindered an "authorized agent of [the] local licensing authorities in the performance of his duties," in violation of G. L. c. 138, § 63A, and a corresponding local board rule. The ABCC noted that the officials were "undoubtedly hindered and delayed [in their] investigation … into the use of candles" for at least thirty-five minutes as Courtney and Dietrich "argued" with them….
[But a]lthough the owners of the establishment challenged the officials' basis for the enforcement order, there is no evidence that they impeded any official's entry into the business or denied them requested information. In fact, during the exchange, the officials were not seeking any "information as may be required for the proper enforcement of" G. L. c. 138, § 63A; to the contrary, the owners were seeking information from the officials relating to the law that they claimed to be enforcing. The charge of hindering cannot be sustained….
The charges of intimidation and threats were premised on Courtney's statement to the officials, "you will live to regret this." {On the video, Courtney states, "[Y]ou guys are gonna regret behaving this way; this is not how this works." Nevertheless, the ABCC credited the officials' testimony that Courtney said, "you will live to regret this," even though not found in any recording, because "[t]here is nothing to indicate that every word spoken was captured by the recordings." We note, however, that nothing in the record indicates that witnesses heard Courtney express such a sentiment more than once and that the video recording conforms with the witness testimony as to the time when the officials heard Courtney make the statement.}
The ABCC found that this constituted intimidation in the sense that it implied that Courtney would make a complaint against the officials, which in turn would cause them economic injury because it would jeopardize their professional careers. Likewise, the ABCC found that the statement also constituted a threat to commit a crime, specifically witness intimidation, in the sense that it implied that Courtney would retaliate against the officials for their enforcement action by filing a complaint, thereby causing them economic injury by jeopardizing their careers. The ABCC further noted that Courtney "followed through with her threat of retaliation against their employment by filing a complaint against them in part arising out of their investigation … , which only gives credence to the fact she intended her statement to mean that she … [planned] to retaliate."
There is no dispute that Courtney's statement was taken as nothing other than an intention to file a complaint against the conduct of government officials. No matter how aggressive the tone, the statement does not constitute a "true threat" which may deprive it of First Amendment protection. An individual's right to complain against its government cannot be denied under a theory that the lawful complaint somehow threatens or intimidates a government official; the statement at issue here is a classic example of protected speech. The charges of intimidation and threats cannot be sustained….
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“Its government”?
When you disengender people, they become things.
Nothing wrong with having a hypothetical individual that prefers the pronoun "it".
I've noticed that people often generalize with female pronouns to be inclusive, i.e. "An individual's right to complain against her government..." but you never see things like, "An individual's right to complain against zir government..." or "An individual's right to complain against xyr government...".
That's literally violence.
Unfortunately she ran aground on the shoals.
FWIW I use the singular "they", which has hundreds of years of usage to support it, and anyone who condemns it on grammatical grounds exposes their own lack of knowledge.
Footnote 5 is a banger.
5. On the video, Courtney states, “[Y]ou guys are gonna regret behaving this way; this is not how this works.” Nevertheless, the ABCC credited the officials' testimony that Courtney said, “you will live to regret this,” even though not found in any recording, because “[t]here is nothing to indicate that every word spoken was captured by the recordings.” We note, however, that nothing in the record indicates that witnesses heard Courtney express such a sentiment more than once and that the video recording conforms with the witness testimony as to the time when the officials heard Courtney make the statement.
I think the court is right that even "You will live to regret this" isn't a threat. But "[Y]ou guys are gonna regret behaving this way; this is not how this works," appears to be what she really said and is even less of a threat!
Technically it "is" a threat. A threat that you're going to bring a complaint.
Which is not a "threat" in any relevant sense.
Cambridge Police & Fire -- not just whiny bitches, but lying whiny bitches!
1)Create a mechanism enabling the public to file complaints about misconduct by officials
2)Treat threatening to use that procedure a crime
3)…
4)…
5)Profit!
(‘We know we’re doing a great job because we never get complaints!’)
"On October 12, 2018, the Cambridge Licensing Commission (board) issued a notice of disciplinary hearing regarding the incident, charging the plaintiff with (1) a fire safety violation, (2) hindering an investigation, (3) intimidating a witness and (4) threatening a public official. The board found the plaintiff in violation of all the charges against it and ultimately imposed a five-day suspension. The plaintiff appealed."
Guess who's on the 3-person Cambridge Licensing Board? The city Fire Commissioner and the Police Commissioner. Plus a lefty lawyer as chair.
ha I have a case right now with a guy charged with a crime for texting “fuck around and find out” during an argument.
what is even happening in this country
I'd be more threatened by someone saying, "You won't live to regret this!"
Ditto 🙂
I suppose you could try it, and if challenged, be like "What? I just meant that he wouldn't regret it!"
Great line uttered by James Caan in "Way of the Gun". "I will promise you a day of reckoning you won't live long enough to never forget."
"a hearing that spanned six days, featured testimony from nine witnesses, and included a total of seventy-five exhibits"
The process is the punishment. For all practical purposes the government won and the small business lost.
Only until a few of these petty bureaucrats are found floating downstream.
Sadly, that's what it will take.
There’s the Dr. Ed we know and love!
He seems like so much fun! I sometimes wish I could see what he's said this time.
But the feeling passes.
Dr. Ed fantasizes about murdered bureaucrats… but more in sorrow than in anger, he assures us. Left unsaid? The third possibility— arousal
Chuck Schumer is breathing a sigh of relief, he went a lot further than she did, he was all the way into "fight like hell" territory:
"I want to tell you, Gorsuch, I want to tell you, Kavanaugh, you have released the whirlwind and you will pay the price. You won’t know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions."
But clearly not insurrection - - - - -
Agreed. Clearly not insurrection. (Not exactly sure what your point was, here, but whatevs.)
Did he say it to a crowd of armed people encouraging them to go “fight” the Supreme Court? Not the same thing you moron.
Your partisanship is once again in control of your critical faculties if you to parse this quote as a true threat.
In reality, you take as gospel sources that constantly grasp at straws to try and find an equivalent to what Trump said so they can cry double standard.
They did not succeed, but they will say that they did because persecution delusions must be fed, and at this point that's what's required to support Trump.
And you will, once again, believe them. Which, to be fair, is an amazing feat of self-deception.
Trump explicitly called for a peaceful protest ("I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."). The crimes some people committed were their own. Notably, this is one of those "just for Trump" rules, people who call for protests never have crimes of some protesters imputed to them by the law. Frequently criminal protestors just get away with it, but Trump protestors don't get the lenient standards BLM ones do.
To be clear, I don't think the language in that speech is by itself more than grossly irresponsible.
But if you need to narrow your context and cherry pick that hard to make your point, maybe the point isn't really worth making.
Sarcastro projecting again. Dude, you misread the comment. Why not just admit it?
Get on and go away.
Trump said quite a lot of things during his speech that day, and you've chosen to quote just one of them. Why is that?
"Your partisanship is once again in control of your critical faculties if you to parse this quote as a true threat."
And your partisanship is once again in control of your critical faculties if you parse Kazinski's comment as a claim that this quote was a true threat. It's not. That was precisely Kazinski's point.
What sources?
I'm just quoting what Schumer said on video, that Roberts condemned.
You aren't saying it didn't happen are you? I'm making the equivalence based on my own observations, not some unnamed sources.
And neither the poor woman's statement, nor Schumer's, nor Trump's speech were close to being criminally liable acts.
And you can quote me on that opinion, I'm the source.
You didn’t come into that video by accident.
Pretending this is a something you came up with on your own is ridiculous.
Your personal observation lines up with the right wing bullshit factories too well.
Let's ask a separate question. The original incident occurred in 2018. The original decision was in 2019. This is five years later....five years later... The original coffeeshop has been shut down, and has been shut down for years.
Are there any consequences for the ABCC and its enforcement operatives who so obviously got the law wrong, and then doubled down in such a lawsuit? Any at all? Or is this just...well, it's years later guess we can't do anything about it now...
Of course not, this is Massachusetts.
Gee, it almost sounds like "lawfare"...
That was one of their their main arguments. They argued it’s years later and we can’t do anything about it now, therefore the Court of Appeals has no jurisdiction to disturb the judgment below and the decision needs to stand.
This sounds like a prosecution for the age old offense of contempt of cop.
As the lack of, knowledge of law by those who are to enforce law, proper restraint in applying law, proper policing power, proper respect to citizens, We live fuddle and pass into the abyss of government malfeasance while concurrently not knowing how to alter this equation for the betterment of all.
Fear of common words and phrases by government workers is a farce to law itself, and the reason for not continuing employment for these wimps, such as those at Western Nevada Community College in 2008. The Ides of October marks them as degenerates, save one.
What
If I think I can parse the odd punctuation I totally agree. That Western Nevada Community College hub-bub was Krazy!!!
Many restaurants around here now have the little led fake candles. I don't think it is a law, but maybe it is. I appreciated it when the kids were little so I didn't have to blow them out.
What actually appalls me is that the fire department and cops showed up to harrass this business owner.
If there is a fire inspector?
'Hey maam, you know open flames aren't allowed in Cambridge?'
'put them out or I will have to file a report'
'no?, here's your ticket, dispute it if you wish'
why cops?
nothing better to do
This is code enforcement
There is a Massachusetts law allowing a local fire chief to order a fire hazard abated. The responsible person has 24 hours to comply.
That law wasn’t applied in this case. A court is limited to checking whether the law asserted by the prosecution and the defendant was notified of covers the defendant’s conduct. While there are exceptions (e.g. lesser included offenses), Due Process prohibts judges from searching the books for other laws that might cover the defendant’s conduct.
The fire chief wasn’t involved and didn’t find or order anything here, so the other law about what a fire chief can do is irrelevant.
I wonder how modern American courts would rule in a Tuberville v. Savage-type case.
I would not assume acquittal in all instances.
So basically the officials got it wrong on the candles and then got PO'd that they were forcefully called out and brought these people up on charges.
Hmmm. Feels like this agency just doesn't get to regulate these people anymore. They retaliated based on speech, which is a 1A violation. They should spend the rest of their lives in prison.
Why don’t Courtney et al. sue these officials for violating their civil rights? It would seem to be an open and shut case.
In addition to the Free Speech claim, I think they would have a false arrest claim. They have a good argument against Qualified Immunity on both. For the false arrest claim, they could assert that no reasonable police officer, reading the statute, could conclude that a statute addressing using candles for cooking food would apply to purely decorative candles, QI only covers reasonable ignorance of the law, not complete and total ignorance of the law.