The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Supreme Court's Grant in Trump v. U.S. (UPDATED)
The justices reframed the question presented in the case and expedited its consideration.
Yesterday the Supreme Court granted certiorari in Trump v. United States, in which Donald Trump has been trying to argue that he is immune from prosecution for acts taken while he was President (as Eugene noted here). It has ordered expedited briefing (although not quite as expedited as special counsel Jack Smith requested), and we can hope for a decision before the end of June.
As I noted in a blog post three weeks back, there were serious arguments in favor of the Court granting this case to iron out some aspects of the D.C. Circuit's ruling against Trump. (On this point, see this essay by Jack Goldsmith.)
While the D.C. Circuit correctly rejected Trump's immunity claims in a hastily drafted (yet largely well-crafted) decision, there are questions about how presidential immunity claims should be conceived and the extent to which immunity claims prevent even the initiation of prosecution, as opposed to requiring the government to make certain showings (e.g. that given acts were not official acts, etc.). That said, I would have preferred that the Court had acted a bit more quickly than it did, but the Court is not always known (or celebrated) for speed. (It seems the "shadow docket" has its virtues.)
The Court's order treated Trump's application for a stay as a petition for certiorari and rewrote the question presented in the case. Trump's application for a stay presented two questions:
I. Whether the doctrine of absolute presidential immunity includes immunity from criminal prosecution for a President's official acts, i.e., those performed within the "'outer perimeter' of his official responsibility." Nixon v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 731, 756 (1982) (quoting Barr v. Matteo, 360 U.S. 564, 575 (1959)).
II. Whether the Impeachment Judgment Clause, U.S. CONST. art. I, § 3, cl. 7, and principles of double jeopardy foreclose the criminal prosecution of a President who has been impeached and acquitted by the U.S. Senate for the same and/or closely related conduct that underlies the criminal charges.
The Court limited its grant of certiorari to the following:
Whether and if so to what extent does a former President enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office.
There are a few points worth making about this. First, the Court is not considering the second question at all. The U.S. Court of Appeals decisively (and correctly) rejected this argument below. It was never a serious argument, and is not worth the justices' time. No, a failure of the Senate to convict an impeached President does not preclude subsequent prosecution for the same or related acts.
Second, as Jack Goldsmith notes in this Xitter thread, the Court framed the issue in terms of "presidential immunity," not "absolute immunity" as Trump had argued. Further, by asking both "whether" and "to what extent" a President may be immune, the Court can make clear that mere invocation of alleged "official acts" is not enough to make the prosecution go away, while still providing immunity for core executive prerogatives. So the Court could decide that running for reelection is not an "official" act entitled to any immunity, or not sufficiently core to executive function to justify immunity, without raising the specter of future partisan prosecutions of former presidents for official acts (e.g. ordering military actions, like drone strikes, that result in the death of U.S. citizens, etc.).
Stepping back, while I liked the idea of the Court simply leaving the D.C. Circuit's decision in place and allowing a trial to go forward, there is no question that this case was objectively cert worthy. Ideally, the Senate would have convicted Trump after he was impeached, as the argument that the Senate lacked such authority was quite weak, but that was not to be. It would also have been far preferable had the Justice Department acted more quickly to investigate and initiate prosecution than it did, but that was not to be either. This leaves us with the unhappy choice of letting the Supreme Court further define the contours of presidential immunity on the eve of a presidential election in which the defendant is a candidate. That is not a great place to be, but that's where we are.
UPDATE: Ed Whelan flags another interesting aspect of the Court's order that I overlooked.
The Court failed to grant Trump's stay application. The grant of certiorari had the same effect, however, as the Court ordered the D.C. Circuit to withhold its mandate. Here's the interesting part: It take five votes to grant a stay, but only four to grant certiorari. Thus the lack of a stay suggests a majority of the Court may have been inclined to affirm the D.C. Circuit, even if some had concerns about the lower court's reasoning. That at least four voted to grant certiorari may also mean no more than at least four justices saw a need to refine the D.C. Circuit's analysis so as to provide greater clarity about the scope of presidential immunity going forward.
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Eminently reasonable post ... it's all downhill from here!
I'm not sure what the contours of the S.Ct.'s decision will ultimately be, but I am pretty confident Trump isn't going to get his hoped-for result of "if the President does it, it's not a crime" (h/t to Nixon).
Smith is not getting his hoped-for result either. He says that there is no presidential immunity at all, after leaving office.
Does that allow a murder charge against Trump for killing that IRGC general?
There is a BIG difference between what Nixon did and what Trump is ALLEGED to have done, but let's throw out a real hypothetical here.
Let's say that a suitcase nuke is missing and the FBI -- genuinely wanting to get it back before lots of people are killed -- do a bunch of illegal things looking for it. Break into houses -- damage houses with tear gas, injure a few innocent bystanders -- that'd all be Sovereign Immunity, right?
And if the FBI director said "guys, find the nuke and I really don't care what you have to do to find it", he'd still be protected, right?
So what's the difference if the President calls in said FBI director and says the exact same thing to him???
Why should the President be held to a HIGHER standard than FBI Agents? Shouldn't it be the same set of rules for both?
No. Why are you incapable of understanding the difference between civil suits and criminal prosecutions?
The arguments in favor of immunity in civil cases are even stronger in the context of criminal prosecutions.
Not to an intelligent person.
If you know any, and I doubt they think too highly of you if they exist, go ask them if a president could be a potential target of politically motivated prosecutions? Actually, you don’t have to ask them, just look at Smith (and James in Georgia). Ask them if threats of prosecutions in politically controversial areas might inhibit presidential decisions? Rejecting presidential immunity would cripple a president’s ability to act decisively, and I would bet that clown Smith actually backtracks and concedes the need for recognizing immunity, but he’ll just say that immunity somehow doesn’t apply to his disgracefully abuse of power.
I don't know what "James in Georgia" refers to.
Any person on the planet "could be a potential target of politically motivated prosecutions," but that's not an argument for abolishing the criminal justice system. And a former president of the United States is the person least likely for that to happen to, given such a person's prominence, ability to defend himself, and the strong incentives weighing against such a prosecution in the first place.
Even Trump's insane position "rejects presidential immunity"; it just requires a president to have been impeached before he can be prosecuted. So apparently even Trump does not agree with your weird notion that it would "cripple a president's ability to act decisively." It's not a realistic concern.
What is a realistic concern is a president deliberately breaking the law knowing that he is immune even if he does. We don't want presidents to illegally "act decisively."
I dunno, political prosecutions in service to dictatorship might outweigh damage done due to a shitty justice system.
Yeah ok, a typo, "Fani in Georgia," and "James in NY." So many democrat hack prosecutors out there only serves as further evidence of the potential abuses in subjecting presidents to the mercies of such activists. And recognizing presidential immunity for official acts under our constitution doesn't abolish the criminal justice system, just so you know. Your comments on impeachment are just confused. Not really sure what you mean.
Are you trying to compare a president's amenability to impeachment to his potential political prosecution by political opponents?
"James in NY" filed a civil suit against Trump for his private business matters predating and utterly unrelated to his presidency, so that doesn't make sense either. Maybe you want to try again?
The notion that if there's a possibility of politically-motivated prosecution, then we can't allow any prosecution would in fact abolish the criminal justice system, just so you know, because there's always a possibility of politically-motivated prosecution for any criminal defendant.
No. I'm trying to teach you that Trump's position is that a former president can be criminally prosecuted (by his political opponents or otherwise), if he is first impeached for that offense. So your ridiculous notion that if former presidents can be prosecuted then a president won't feel able to freely act while in office is not saved by Trump's position. He could still be deterred by the fear of future prosecution.
Impeachment is a political action specifically provided for in the Constitution and presidents are subject to this potential political accountability. It can even be abused, as the democrats have proven. But the existence of that constitutionally permissible, even potentially abusable avenue, does legitimize activist political prosecutions. If Congress wants to impeach and remove a president then yeah, he could be prosecuted. That doesn't undermine the president's argument. It is part of the president's argument. That's so obvious I would have thought you would have grasped this. Apparently not.
To simplify it further so even you can understand, impeachments are constitutionally legitimate political actions. The prosecution of a president for official acts is not. There is no comparison dunderhead.
"The arguments in favor of immunity in civil cases are even stronger in the context of criminal prosecutions."
Uh, no. The Supreme Court, in the context of the immunity of a former president from civil suits for damages, has expressly recognized that there is a lesser public interest in actions for civil damages than, for example, in criminal prosecutions. Nixon v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 731, 754 n.37 (1982). Chief Justice Burger, whose vote was essential to the 5-4 decision, opined in a concurring opinion that a former president's immunity is limited to civil damages claims. Id., at 759 (Burger, C.J., concurring).
President Trump has never argued “if the President does it, it’s not a crime.” That’s how intellectually dishonest critics distort the argument. And, moreover, this issue is being pressed forward by a hack Special Counsel who is alleging a conspiracy to engage in perfectly legal activities. Not to mention the SC himself was likely not constitutionally appointed, but that’s a whole other aspect to this completely unnecessary and politically motivated lawfare.
Not technically, I suppose. What he has actually argued is, "If the president does it, it doesn't matter whether it's a crime because he is immune from prosecution even if it is."
Scotus apparently agrees that Trump has a legitimate legal argument.
Well, 4 scoti, maybe.
"Scotus apparently agrees that Trump has a legitimate legal argument."
Not necessarily. They may want to affirm the D.C. Circuit, perhaps with some tweaks here and there, and make a ruling which will bind courts nationwide.
Yeah that’s probably it. They routinely grant cert. just because they want to do a few tweaks here and there. Happens all the time. And they need to clarify the issue because, who knows, the matter might come up again in another 200 years when some future democrat hack thug launches another politically motivated prosecution.
Really? I looked over all the petitions/briefs submitted by President Trump’s counsel. I see no argument that “if the president does it, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a crime because he is immune from prosecution even if it is.” Perhaps you could refer me to the specific pages where he makes that argument?
Pages 1-whatever the last page of the brief is. What on earth do you think immunity is? It's a claim that the person who is immune can't be prosecuted (or sued civilly) even if he does something wrong/illegal.
For actions within the scope of official presidential duties you abysmal idiot, not immunity for anything.
Trump's position is that anything he did while president was within that scope. Like threatening the secretary of state of Georgia to 'find' votes, or arranging for fake electors, or even lying about returning classified documents after his presidency is over.
Nope, not sure who you think you're fooling. You do understand that you can disagree with President Trump without these obnoxious lies, don't you? That isn't President Trumps position and he didn't threaten the Georgia Sec. of State. He also didn't praise neo-Nazis in Charlottesville, pay off Russian hookers to pee on a hotel room bed, or try to get Ukraine to manufacture evidence against the Big Guy. You may need therapy.
It is his position, and he did. And he did. Not the hookers, no. Yes on Ukraine. You might want to try getting your news from legitimate news sources.
“Legitimate news sources” That’s funny. I’m willing to bet all your “legitimate news sources” touted all the conspiratorial lies noted above including a few others.
You still haven;t answered the question -- why is the FBI agent entitled to protection that the President isn't?
He isn't, you fucking idiot. FBI agents do not have immunity from criminal prosecution.
Ope, Above The Law went there too:
Written with a partisan perspective sure to amuse some, enrage others. But worth a chuckle or two no matter there you are in the political spectrum:
https://abovethelaw.com/2024/02/supreme-court-donald-trump-immunity/
Well, if it's a legitimate use of plenary powers, Congress can't make it illegal for the president. That would be Congress taking on the role assigned to the executive under the three ring circus design.
(emphasis added) Doesn't that beg the question? I can't think of a "more plenary" Presidential power than the pardon power.
Could Congress pass a law forbidding a president from taking cash payments in exchange for pardons?
I am pretty sure that accepting bribes has already been criminalized, yes. He could not punished for giving the pardon itself, but for accepting the money, sure.
Correct.
However, if Congress passes a law against abuse of power, the mere issuance of a pardon can not constitute abuse of power.
David, didn't this issue arise with Bill Clinton's pardon of Mark Rich?
I'm lazy so I will just paste the Wiki writeup of facts because they seem to be about what I remember happening.
Marc Rich (born Marcell David Reich; December 18, 1934 – June 26, 2013) was an international commodities trader, financier, and businessman. He founded the commodities company Glencore, and was later indicted in the United States on federal charges of tax evasion, wire fraud, racketeering, and making oil deals with Iran during the Iran hostage crisis. He fled to Switzerland at the time of the indictment and never returned to the United States.[1] He received a widely criticized presidential pardon from President Bill Clinton, on his last day in office; Rich's ex-wife Denise had made large donations to the Democratic Party.[emphasis added]
Rank speculation here. I suspect that Denise Rich fucked Bill Clinton before he pardoned her husband.
Did she cross a state line?
I don't think the Mann Act applies to transporting oneself across state lines.
"Rookie mistake."
I love that phrase. It envelops so much.
Nixon was right. Some things are not illegal if the President does them.
Don't you worry about the consequences of this to future generations? Heck, to Joe Biden who has to have done something that a creative Republican AG could bring charges on.
January 6th was nothing more than a frat party by people old enough to know better --- I've seen far worse at UMass Amherst. Even if it wasn't largely exacerbated by multiple Federal agencies doing concurrent stings without comparing notes first (and maybe different offices of the *same* agencies...), it's neither the worst thing that's happened in that building historically nor the worst thing that happened in 2020.
They've had Congressmen SHOT with real bullets (and one damn near die), they've had bombs go bang inside the building, and Charles Sumner was damn near beaten to death. And then as to 2020, we had cities burnt flat which is a little bit more extreme than a mess that could be cleaned up in a few hours.
Sure they broke some windows -- I've seen more broken at UMass in just one snowball fight (particularly when you include the ones then broken at Amherst College). The building is still standing and no member of Congress wound up in the hospital -- that's not an insurrection...
But if SCOTUS doesn't stomp on this, you will see every POTUS (including Brandon) giving themselves a blanket pardon as they walk out the door to prevent the other party from doing this to them.
Do UMass Amherst frat parties attempt to steal elections?
They run around drunk breaking things and making threats and smashing windows. Is that an attempt to overthrow the governement?
To hear disasterbators, with a tiny extra shove, this would have been the evening news.
“Good evening. Today in Washington, a few thousand people stormed the capital, hung the Vice President and some senators and congressmen, and declared Trump president even though there was no constitutional authority.
“To my fellow 340 million Americans, we must kneel to those few thousands. Sorry, it was a good run.
“They are all at home now, watching The Masked Singer or some fishing boat show, and running the country during ads, from their castles.”
Firstly, whether the events of January 6 were close to succeeding in stealing the election does not change Trump's criminal liability for it. Secondly, Smith is not charging Trump just for the events of January 6, but the entirety of his attempt to steal the election from November 14 through January 20.
"stealing the election"---so would we get to prosecute Dems who vote against certification?
No. Ted Cruz, et al. are not at risk of being prosecuted.
Was Al Gore similarly charged?
Hint: He wasn't.
It helped that he conceded and didn't take an extralegal means to try to reverse the results. He filed a lawsuit, he lost, he conceded. Trump still hasn't conceded and there was a riot during which he mused that probably the people chanting hang Mike Pence had a point. And much more. But you know this, or should by now.
Smith has made the charges vague enough so that Trump could be convicted on at least one charge if the jury holds him responsible for January 6 and nothing else. The riot has been found to include criminal acts of obstruction by trial judges and the D.C. Circuit. He could also be convicted based solely on a phone call in which fake electors were discussed, at least if there is evidence he assisted or directed the fake elector scheme. (The indictment only alleges he was on the call.) Sending fake electoral votes to Congress is both obstruction and a violation of the civil rights of the real electors.
Quite apart from the immunity issue, it is really shocking that more lawyers are not appalled that President Trump is being charged with a conspiracy to engage in perfectly legal activity.
Is it.
Yes, most people familiar with the legal system and law see the Trump prosecutions as fine. Indeed.
“They run around drunk breaking things and making threats and smashing windows. Is that an attempt to overthrow the governement?
To overthrow a superpower with nukes? Seriously?
Look, drunks running around breaking things is why we have police officers — who wouldn’t have jobs if they weren’t having to deal with drunks running around breaking things. People making threats is why we have a USSS and while I don’t want to know the number and severity of the threats they deal with, I presume it is a LOT -- ALL THE TIME -- and QUITE SERIOUS ones. More than a rickety gallows that was nothing more than symbolic speech.
We had Ollie North speak at UMass. I was involved in the security for that — and from what we dealt with there, I laugh at saying that the Jan 6 threats were threats. Sure you gotta chase them down, but it’s like the 5-year-old who threatened to kill Bill Clinton’s cat — not something that you really need to worry about,
And as to broken glass — any idea how much the pussy hat brigade broke during Trump’s inauguration in 2017?
““Good evening. Today in Washington, a few thousand people stormed the capital, hung the Vice President and some senators and congressmen, and declared Trump president even though there was no constitutional authority.”
That is so asinine that I am surprised that I am even responding, but hung HOW??? You couldn’t hang a 10 lb cat on that gallows, let alone an adult male — the whole thing would collapse (and damn near did as they were carrying it through town).
We have a continuity of government plan — a few thousand people could declare Mickey Mouse President — and at some point, probably have, and it wouldn’t make a difference.
To my fellow 340 million Americans, we must kneel to those few thousands. Sorry, it was a good run.
And there wouldn’t be a few thousand showing up the next day saying “I don’t think so”?
It could wind up in a Civil War — and to his credit, Trump didn’t do that — but do you honestly think that a cadre that had spent the summer burning the country flat would have quietly said “OK” to this? Really???
It could wind up in a Civil War — and to his credit, Trump didn’t do that
To his credit!!???
On January 6th, 2021, President Donald Trump triggered a purposeful assault on the Capitol that threatened our representative democracy’s free and fair elections and thus, our constitutional republic. But the effort had begun months earlier, with Trump incessantly repeating his Big Lie — that only an unimaginably complex conspiracy of thousands of people coordinating massive fraud could block his “win in landslide.”
Trump tried but failed to convince the courts of the alternate facts necessary to his big lie. He tried but failed to intimidate officials of several states into reversing their states’ election results. He tried but failed to undermine the Justice Department, to enlist the help of the military, to persuade enough members of Congress to vote to overturn the election.
Failing in all other areas and facing the June 6th Congressional validation of his defeat, Donald Trump used his final rally as the focus point and culmination of his years-long campaign of ruthless, relentless, denialist propaganda. As a sitting president failing to gain the constitution’s mandated periodic reapproval of the people, Donald Trump tried to block a peaceful transfer of power, provoking domestic insurrection among his followers to nullify an election he unambiguously lost.
Our Constitution is meaningless if, without evidence and despite losing in every court, the loser of an election succeeds in simply refusing to accept the outcome. Yes, America proved resilient enough to survive such persistent Presidential perfidy — this time. But Trump tried, to the best of his abilities.
He gets no credit for failing.
onald Trump used his final rally as the focus point and culmination of his years-long campaign of ruthless, relentless, denialist propaganda. As a sitting president failing to gain the constitution’s mandated periodic reapproval of the people, Donald Trump tried to block a peaceful transfer of power, provoking domestic insurrection among his followers to nullify an election he unambiguously lost.
That is quite a claim.
What, exactly did Trumop do to try to block the peaceful transfer of power?
How, exactly, did this provoke insurrection?
You are delusional.
Trump Derangement Syndrome is terrible to watch.
Yet, sometimes, oddly amusing.
Normal crowd of Trumpists drawn today, parroting echo-chamber talking points while demonstrating little awareness that countering evidence exists. Mostly, it's simple vandalism, the equivalent of gang-tagging—spray-painting graffiti on somebody else's wall to try to virtue-signal other members of their gang.
"Trump Derangement Syndrome is terrible to watch."
Yes, it is. Yet, I appreciate their excellent example of Trump Derangement Syndrome, typified by lack of logic, self-awareness, self-control, and shame; and emotionally obsessive expression of the resentment, envy, greed, fear, and rage that drives the Trump base. The most virulent strain (demonstrated by a number of commenters) primarily infects those susceptible because of a preexisting condition: a potentially deadly combination of unjustified moral superiority and justified insecurity.
This TDS, in its final stages, drives its victims to their characteristic lust—horrific yet cartoonish—for a Caudillo, a Strong Man leader, someone powerful to validate the greed, bullying, sexual abuse, racism, and xenophobia they once felt they had to suppress in front of others.
TDS-infected as it is with a strain of Trump’s inherent narcissistic solipsism, we are not going to win over a Trump base rendered incapable of considering anything in terms beyond what does it mean for me?
What we will do is eventually work through and mend those flaws in our particular flavor of constitutional representative democracy that are preventing the will of the consistent majority of Americans—We the People rejecting the future Trump stands for—to be accurately expressed in the principles and practices of our government.
Wait a sec.
He's commander in chief. Are you telling me that he ordered the military to do something and they refused?
No, but UMass unions do.
They hosted a Gubernatorial Debate and only let the Democratic candidate attend. I am not making this up.
I’m not sure that anyone with an operating brain cell would look back on your contributions to this space over the last months/year and accept factual assertions from you at face value. So this:
“I am not making this up.”
Seems superfluous.
it's possible he's just too dumb to realize that it was a primary debate rather than a general election debate.
On October 31, 2006? (The primary election had been on September 19, 2006.)
I'll take "things that never happened" for $500, Alex.
https://www.umass.edu/archivenewsoffice/article/umass-amherst-student-government-association-host-gubernatorial-candidate-deval-patrick-oct
Predictably, the link is unusable. But the URL does not say anything about a "debate," or unions, for that matter.
That and a few lynchings is all.
Donald Trump is in the "burn it all down for my own aggrandizement" camp¹, but other presidents, no matter how terrible, had at least some institutional loyalty. They are not going to frivolously go after former presidents, because they do know what that would mean for the country.
No, it wasn't, and no, you haven't.
We did, in fact, not have any cities burnt flat.
¹He was the mother urging Solomon to chop the baby up — and then demanding both halves!
Since we're stopping hyperbolic exaggeration to support political goals, nor did we have an insurrection.
Are you trying to hang your tinfoil hat on "merely an attempted insurrection," clinger?
You are lucky that you are not kicked off for racial slurs. You only use "tinfoil hat" and "clinger" to denigrate White people.
If you are who some here say you are, you seem to have inherited un-American, bigoted ignorance from your maternal line.
More name-calling.
Are you as bigoted as your mother was?
NPCs like "REV" are incapable of articulating independent thought.
You should stick with Blackman, Volokh, and the rest of the VCers, Scooter.
You guys can have even more fun getting your asses kicked by better Americans in the culture war.
I hope Pres. Trump does prosecute Biden for a long list of frivolous charges, just to make a point that the President needs some immunity.
Trump has trained conservatives to hate the rule of law. This is a perfect embodiment of that.
And distrust democracy.
What could possibly go wrong?
You are what the communists used to call a "useful idiot"
You’re what the French call les incompetents
Whereas nobody has ever called you useful.
You say flagrantly wrong things, pick fights with experts in the law which you are not, and get indignant when people tell you you’re full of shit.
You’re so determined to pick a fight, you accuse MAGA posters on here of having an anti-Trump agenda because you read their comment too fast, so eager are you to vent your spleen online.
You come in angry online, and you leave angry online with a lot of nonsense and insults in your wake. Weak engagement, no learning, just a waste of time.
Experts? That’s really very funny. By the way even legitimate “experts” can be blinded by their own biases, or actively participate in furthering, shall we say, things not true.
And I must add, you leftists really don’t like being challenged do you? Pathetic.
Have you stopped beating your wife?
It speaks volumes that you attack me but are just fine with sarconuts tirade of nonsense insults. I guess I'm hitting too close to home. You clowns really don’t like any pushback.
My insults are based on substance from your actual comments. They all relate to my main issue with you - you *don’t* challenge anyone or hit close to home. You just insult.
And then you claim victory.
Have you actually won an actual argument ever in your life? Heck, have you had an actual argument ever in your life, or do you think your ipse dixit and insults count?
Claiming victory? Winning argument? It’s a comments section and you just don’t like any comments that you disagree with. And so you engage in yet another childishly insulting rant. It’s all you leftist clowns are capable of.
Or maybe it's just that tantrums worked for you as child and you never got out of the habit?
It was a rhetorical question, not an "attack".
Cry me a riva...
If you want to be a literally accurate fool, which you apparently do, it's both.
Donald Trump is in the “burn it all down for my own aggrandizement” camp? I didn’t know president Trump was a member of the Marxist BLM organization. Who knew?
The list of things you don't know would fill the Internet.
Well I confess I don't frequent Vox or Slate or watch Morning Joe so I guess I do lack your vast "knowledge" base of woketard democrat lies, distortions, and just flat out nutso stock Russian conspiracy stories.
"The list of things you don’t know would fill the Internet."
That is an interesting, but anodyne insult in that it applies to everyone.
Nonetheless, it was a good comeback.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arson_damage_during_the_George_Floyd_protests_in_Minneapolis%E2%80%93Saint_Paul
Words missing from that link: "burnt flat."
.
Not one of the right-wing law professors who operate this blog will say a word about this comment, for several reasons.
The Conspirators are partisan hacks. They cultivate people who think like this -- delusional, un-American misfits -- this their target audience. They are disaffected culture war casualties. They are cowards who fear retribution from Trump and others.
This is among the reasons (don't ignore the bigotry) the Volokh Conspirators are not respected or liked within the modern mainstream of legal academia. I doubt Prof. Volokh's departure from UCLA will be the last of its kind.
The Volokh Conspirators are entitled to believe and publish as they wish. They also are entitled to impose viewpoint-driven censorship at their blog, even as they claim to be champions of free expression. They are free to whine about how strong, legitimate law schools are, in their judgment, insufficiently hospitable to stale, ugly conservative thinking. They are permitted to endorse and/or associate with un-American jerks such as John Eastman, former Judge Kozinski, John Yoo, and Jeffrey Clark. They are even welcome to believe they were not affirmative action hires.
They are not, however, and should not be immune from the consequences of their actions. And inactions.
Carry on, clingers. So far as better Americans permit.
Excellent post!
It answers the question some posters asked in other threads: what was wrong with Circuit opinion (be sure to read Goldsmith's full take).
It makes a strong case for why SCOTUS reframed the question. Some posters (including me) in other threads were concerned SCOTUS might avoid the immunity question by holding the case hinges only on whether Trump's actions were official acts (why use the term "alleged [...] official acts"). Instead, Adler makes a better case SCOTUS is likely to assume the acts are official and proceed to delineate a standard for when official acts are not immune from criminal prosecution.
The question they've decided to answer is inherently a stupid one.
"Alleged" by whom? The former President who gets charged with a crime?
"So and so is indicted for 4 counts of blah blah."
"I allege those were official acts of my Presidency!"
"Damn, you got us. Charges dropped."
If they assume his actions were 'official,' then they are not qualified to sit on any bench in the nation, as the Constitution is quite clear that the President has no role in elections or the counting of electoral votes.
Trump's actions were entirely on behalf of candidate Trump.
They could assume arguendo they are official acts in order to 1) establish when official acts are not categorically immune, and perhaps 2) hold that's Trump's (assumed) official acts are not categorically immune.
I think his actions were within the scope of his official duties but maybe just as important, his conduct was also perfectly legal. Challenging an election is not illegal activity. Even if some hack democrat thug alleges you conspired to challenge an election. There is still no underlying criminality. This whole thing is a pathetic disgrace from a number of different views.
That's like throwing a rock through someone's window and then saying, "Helping someone redecorate his home isn't illegal, so why are you prosecuting me?" Of course "challenging an election" is not illegal activity. Challenging an election by forging documents and the like, however, is.
Forging documents?!?
Those were his slate of electors.
They were candidates for elector. And then after they were not elected to that position, they signed documents pretending to have been elected.
Not even close. Throwing a rock at someone’s window is objectively an underlying wrong. Challenging an election is not. In this case, arguably within the president’s official duties and/or protected by the first amendment. If you’re one of the experts referred to above, they don’t make ‘em like they used to.
Your analogy skills are lacking. (Lucky for you they aren't on the SATs anymore.)
"Challenging the election" is being analogized to "helping someone redecorate his home." Neither is illegal. But the means chosen are illegal in each case, and the fact that the object is not illegal will not save the actor.
You’re just as ignorant on the specific charges here as constitutional law in general. Nothing he is accused of here is inherently wrong. No bank robbed, no SEAL Team Six ordered to do anything, not even any windows broken.
You're mistaken. Just for the most obvious one: forging documents is inherently wrong.
That’s insane. This was an election challenge with an alternate slate of electors. There is ample historical precedent. There was no “forgery,” except in the minds of leftists willing to pervert the law for their own purposes.
Riva seems destined to be surprised (and wrong) at just about every turn as Trump and his lawyers continue to get smacked for un-American wrongdoing.
Maybe Riva is disaffected to the point of enjoying being a disrespected, discredited misfit.
“Un-American wrongdoing”? How McCarthy-esque of you.
There was, in fact, no "alternate slate of electors." Each of the states in question appointed exactly one slate of electors, in accordance with the results of the elections held in those states.
At Trump's behest, some random people off the street also forged documents saying that they were electors. But that was just fraud. They were not.
This was in fact a perfectly legitimate tactic based on historical practice to ensure all legal remedies remained open in the event that pending cases challenging the election were won. If that had happened the the alternate state of electors could be certified. This practice was never alleged to be fraud or illegal until Jack Smith came along with his nonsense indictment.
Or was Fani the first? Hard to keep track with all this democrat lawfare, especially when they seem to be coordinating.
It's a fine needle the SCOTUS needs to thread.
On one hand, they'd rather not have all presidential actions be immune from criminal prosecution.
On the other hand, they probably don't want future administrations prosecuting past administrations for...oh...signing orders calling for the assassination of US Civilians on foreign soil. Which, if it wasn't the president...would generally be called "murder".
A future president is not going to sign off on prosecuting a former president for the sorts of things presidents routinely do. Presidents want to be able to bomb foreign countries, so they are not going to prosecute former presidents from bombing foreign countries, because that would expose them to risk from their successors.
There is a significant difference from an accidental death of a US Citizen due to a bombing of a foreign country, and an explicit execution order of a US Citizen put in place by a President and carried out by the US Armed Forces or Intelligence Community.
Perhaps a future US President will feel that such US Citizens should have due process and an actual trial (even in absentia) before having a death order placed upon them. And to reinforce that point, they choose a criminal prosecution for past presidents who ordered such extrajudicial killings of US Citizens.
"A future president is not going to sign off on prosecuting a former president for the sorts of things presidents routinely do."
Like give speeches and make phone calls?
If this stands, every future President WILL BE prosecuted FOR SOMETHING when the next President is of the other party.
No, like coup attempts.
Is that before or after the civil war and the trucker's strike?
"presidential immunity," not "absolute immunity" as Trump had argued. Further, by asking both "whether" and "to what extent"
Cannot "to what extent", mean absolute?
President Trump’s counsel has always couched the argument in terms of immunity for conduct within the scope of official activities, not “absolute immunity”
That's not how I remember at least one oral argument.
But maybe Riva, FreeRepublic, Stormfront, Breitbart, Gateway Pundit, the Volokh Conspiracy, and Newsmax have better information and ideas.
Ok, prove it, when (if) you ever sober up, point to anything on record supporting your recollection. And this would not be some insane left wing opinion of what happened, this would be the actual record, a transcript or brief.
“It would also have been far preferable had the Justice Department acted more quickly to investigate and initiate prosecution than it did, but that was not to be either.”
Oh, sure, of course. For such a simple and straightforward matter it’s a wonder Bill Barr didn’t get that going immediately. He probably could have had the indictments out before Tirnip left office. Has anyone asked why he didn’t?
Even if you were being serious, Barr resigned before any of this happened. The criticism is of Garland, who spent far too long doing nothing.
There was no evidence Trump caused the riot.
There is convincing evidence he couldn't have, the riot had already started 17 minutes before Trump closed his speech with the "fight like hell' exhortation, and the crowd at the ellipse was still a 40 or 50 minute walk away from the Capitol.
How is that supposed to work?
Just like all Democrat policy and ideas, it's not supposed to work but it feels good.
Waiting to see whether Thomas says, "the president has immunity for official acts, and the determination of what is an official act lies with the president".
I agree with the analysis made in the original post. In particular, almost everyone concludes that, in almost every instance, "the Impeachment Judgment Clause is no bar to criminal prosecution." But such agreement itself introduces a variety of questions.
One question mulling in my mind is the fact that Congress, not the President, technically -- but perhaps not practically -- declares war. We have the historical examples of Lincoln (de facto declaration [War Against The CSA after Sumter]) and L. Johnson (de facto prohibition of declaration [War Against Israel after USS Liberty]) to consider, along with that of Biden (de facto declaration [War Against Palestine]). First, since declaration of war can never be an official act performed by a President, is each President who takes immediate action against a threat later subject to criminal prosecution? Second, since Congress effectively has the power to overrule a President (via impeachment), does a Congress which fails to impeach and convict a President tacitly endorse (and potentially decriminalize) the actions of that President, similar in manner to a Corporate Board of Directors validating the ultra vires actions of its subordinate Corporate Officers?
Fallon expounds on some aspects of the "Ultra Vires Conundrum" but never reaches the now-contemporary salient points.
I don't have too much of a quibble with the Lincoln and Johnson examples. But regardless of where one stands on US support for Israel - and yes, there's a lot of heated disagreement on that! - I think calling the current character and level of US support a "de-facto declaration of War Against Palestine" is a hyuuuuuge stretch.
One could argue that Congress authorizing the use of funds is de facto Congressional approval of action.
Still, I'd see that as a stretch.
In contrast, waging a proxy war for 2 years by the (again authorized) spending of $100B with out a vote on whether a state of war exists is a far different order of magnitude matter
Ukraine, I assume. Howso? We’re not shooting at Russia, there are no US troops present in Ukraine. “Spending money” =/= “state of war”.
Maybe the lack of a “vote on whether a state of war exists” is because of a far, far simpler explanation: no one in Congress plausibly thinks there’s a state of war between the US and Russia, or even anything approaching a state of war.
Why on dog’s green earth would Congress feel a need to hold such a vote in the first place? No one – left, right, or center – wants to vote “yes” on that. If the vote will lose 435 to 0, who is even bringing it to the floor, and why?
Russia certainly considers the US, weapons, logistical support, intelligence support including specified targeting instruction to be part of a proxy war against the Putin regime. Biden has publicly called for regime change in Russia, and it would be incredibly hard to believe that there are not CIA operatives on the ground in the
Ukraine.
How naive can you be?
Since when does Putin's opinion dictate what our Congress believes or authorizes?
Try a real argument next time.
Don, you presume a level of competence in the CIA that I am not sure I do.
I’m not naive at all. I think Congress is the body that gets to declare a formal state of war (not Putin in a speech meant to stir up his own country’s patriotic fervor). There are zero or very few votes in Congress to do that, no appreciable desire to even have the vote, and obvious diplomatic issues to even holding a vote that everyone but you seems painfully aware of. And that's why (*gasp*) Congress hasn't held a vote: Congress has no desire or need to go there. Occam's Razor, my friend.
What about this are you struggling to understand?
I fail to understand your blindness.
I never said that there was a formal state of war. I did say that Mr Biden is engaging in a proxy war.
You are so taken in by the administration line, that you fail to see why the present "fight Russia to the last Ukrainian" is a destructive foreign policy.
No, Congress has the power to issues letters of marque and reprisal.
That’s simply an 18th century form of unofficial proxy war. (Privateers were private vessels authorized by a state, by means of a letter of marque, to raid the shipping of another state.)
The Constitution gives a general power not just to declare formal war but also to do informal military-like action in the absence of a state of war.
In doing so, Congress doesn’t have to use specific magic words, and it isn’t limited to exactly how things were done in the 18th century.
Apparently the actual thing is still around, although it looks like this particular bill didn’t pass.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/6869#:~:text=6869%20%2D%20To%20authorize%20the%20President,117th%20Congress%20(2021%2D2022)
Thanks for the link - I find that fascinating, although it's also true that an individual congresscritter =/= the whole Congress, or that one bill is anywhere remotely likely to pass.
No, Congress has the power to issues letters of marque and reprisal.
That’s simply an 18th century form of unofficial proxy war.
That's sort of true. Also sort of true, it was an 18th century example of gun control. The letters could be revoked. Without one, any ship doing what the letter authorized risked being treated as a pirate, including by the U.S.
And we have not seen those either.
Remember that we were never supposed to have a standing army.
Well, how else are you supposed to repel the neverending migrant invasion?
Dr. Ed would be perfectly happy to volunteer to go out and shoot women and children himself.
Election activity can't really be a presidential official act, since it's something that candidates who are not president also do, and it's clearly assigned to states to run elections. Criminal acts related peripherally to elections can't possibly be protected. It's unclear what else the Supreme Court wants to consider.
The President has the official responsibility to see that the election laws are faithfully executed. Trump tried to do that.
He does not. No more than he has the responsibility to see that driver's licensing exams are faithfully administered.
The insurrection by people incensed by lies about driver's licensing exams would also be wild, but it might be less attended because none of the participants could parallel park.
Speeches to groups can’t really be a presidential official act, since it’s something that people who are not president also do.
Discussing things with senators can’t really be a presidential official act, since it’s something that people who are not president also do.
Visiting flood zones can’t really be a presidential official act, since it’s something that people who are not president also do.
Negotiating personally with foreign diplomats can’t really be a presidential official act, since it’s something that diplomats who are not president also do.
Interviews with reporters can’t really be a presidential official act, since it’s something that people who are not president also do.
But in most of those cases the president also does specific things related to his constitutional functions as chief executive, or the others are doing the same function at the president's behest (e.g., diplomats; illegal for private citizens to do foreign policy, I think). But I would agree that some of them would not and did not give Trump immunity; e.g., defaming E. Jean Carroll in "presidential" speeches.
All of the efforts on this topic, A14 S3 especially, ignores the real issue of why, why now, and not before, when the 2020 election was, and still is in question. To quote Mr. 84 million votes ,
"We have assembled the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of the United States"
TDS has been a serious derangement for over 8 years and continues unabated. And, thus, questioning the last election is very valid as will be this year too.
Legal gibberish abounds by too many legal dopes thinking their degree gives them a special place to foist their mere opinions on matters they know less about, than offering unbiased structured analysis instead.
Law is not Engineering. Law can never be exact since failure of its practice may end a life, but, oh well, gosh, shucks, I get paid the same.
This guy is your target audience, Volokh Conspirators.
And the reason your employers dream of your departures.
Tenure is about all you guys have left.
There's always one who lags behind...
Tell us in your own words, Eric, what you think Biden meant when he said that? Can you do that?
For a bonus point, tell us what Trump meant when he "praised the Americans’ military efforts in the war against Great Britain. “Our army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do, and at Fort McHenry, under the rockets’ red glare, it had nothing but victory,” he said."
"... we can hope for a decision before the end of June."
What is the basis for that hope? The more reasonable expectation is that the Court will indeed wait until the end of June to issue an opinion. "By asking both 'whether' and 'to what extent' a President may be immune," the Court has set itself an exercise in line-drawing that it may take the majority some time to complete.
Moreover, even if the majority swiftly coalesces around opinion that rejects Trump's arguments, any Justices in the minority (looking at you Thomas and Alito) could delay issuance of an opinion simply by slow-walking the preparation of dissenting opinions.
Don’t you hate it when one side delays judicial proceeding for their own advantage, unlike our quality, honest side who wants speedy resolution for disinterested rule of law reasons severed from calculating political analysis?
There is even a professor somewhere concerned with delays because speedy resolution is needed so The People can be confident. Uh, here. Almost certainly not in death penalty cases. Of course death is serious stuff, unlike fluff of who gets to be president, with potential for tens of thousands of differences in deaths, and the freedom fate of two countries, indeed, two regions of the planet, because of fighting lawyers.
Moreover, even if the majority swiftly coalesces around opinion that rejects Trump’s arguments, any Justices in the minority (looking at you Thomas and Alito) could delay issuance of an opinion simply by slow-walking the preparation of dissenting opinions.
the Supreme Court accelerated briefing. I am guessing because this is an interlucotory appeal, rather than an appeal from a final judgment.
Obergefell v. Hodges went from cert petition to opinion in seven months. A four-month time frame would be faster than normal.
I agree that the Court is moving faster than it usaully does. As the origional post states, "It has ordered expedited briefing (although not quite as expedited as special counsel Jack Smith requested)."
But for anyone concerned about having a trial on the merits before the election, there is a big difference between the Court restoring jurisdiction to the trial judge in mid-May and the Court waiting to do so until the end of June. Prof. Adler is hoping for an earlier ruling; I am expecting a later one.
In urgent cases courts can issue an order with opinion to follow weeks or months later. See Ex parte Quirin (WW2 sabotage case). If there is a solid majority against immunity for Trump the Supreme Court can send the case back for trial without waiting for dissenting opinions.
They really could have left the question for a post-conviction appeal.
Or they could simply adhere to a timeframe typical for interlucotory appeals.
I wish that SCOTUS had granted the writ of certiorari and summarily affirmed the Court of Appeals decision.
I wonder whether the Supreme Court will opine that former presidents are not generally immune from criminal prosecution, and Donald Trump is not immune in this particular case, while leaving open the possibility of granting immunity in limited circumstances in future cases. For example, immunity from prosecution for actions as commander in chief of the armed forces implicates different policy considerations from the case at bar.
Not Guilty, you seem unrealistic. What this decision announced is that a right-wing claque solicitous of Trump's political prospects commands the Court—at least for now.
If after long delay Trump wins the election, and with it control of the Justice Department, that means there will be no federal trials for Trump on any of these charges, ever. Once in office, existence of Jack Smith's legal record against Trump would assure that Trump could never leave office, except to enter prison. Consider all which that implies.
For one thing, it means the public will be lucky if the entire record of Jack Smith's attempted prosecution ever comes to light. I would urge Jack Smith, while he still can, to do whatever it takes to copy everything, and hide multiple copies of the records in custody of trustworthy others who will know what to do if Smith is gone.
There is no point pretending—as the cowed and hesitant bloggers and commenters here have been doing—that this decision was not a surprise. You have only to check back a few days to see that the overwhelming majority expected a different decision—one made in context of the election timetable. That did not happen.
Despite rationalisms, offered as alternatives to recognizing the surprise and its significance, the likelihood and evident danger is that this decision has been a carefully measured step on a march toward totalitarianism. Perhaps the justices taking that step do not see it that way.
Perhaps the Trump-supporting justices instead reassure themselves with a delusion that between themselves and forces greater than they can control there exists some insulating barrier, akin to thick gloves which shield an electrician from lethal voltages. Such insulators have their limits.
If the justices suppose this nation is protected by any such barrier, they misconstrue their own role. It is they themselves who were meant to be the insulator. If the justices underestimate the power of charges they mistakenly suppose they hold at arm's length to manipulate, the fatality will not be only their own.
We others who are also endangered must think carefully about what powers are left to us to slow Trump's march. At the very least, as I have previously insisted, and repeat now, it is time to simplify the legal prospect, and attempt to encourage a trial for Trump to conclude with a verdict well prior to the election.
A way to frustrate the Court's right-wing claque—and perhaps to jolt them out of the complacency of delay, if that is indeed the worst impulse which governs their minds—is to drop the present charges, and thus to make moot the present appeals to SCOTUS.
Replace them instead with a single charge—that Trump committed the highest crime of all, treason against the United States. Evidence already published furnishes probable cause and more. Trump can make no claim of privilege or immunity against a treason charge. If convicted, Trump cannot be president. Accomplice-witnesses will think more carefully before resisting cooperation, than if they supposed Trump in office could protect them for shielding him.
If charged, Trump could be left at liberty to campaign. But if he veered again toward intimidation of witnesses or judges, he could be justly jailed as a public danger, to await trial—a practice typical in cases of those charged with capital crimes.
Any such charge would arouse public outcry from Trump's defenders. There would be a torrent of accusations that the charge was nakedly political. Reply to that ought to be forthright. Of course it is political, but it is not partisan. Trump is charged with the ultimate political crime. It is not possible to address that crime, except with a jealously political defense of America's political system. Politics, not violence, not insurrection, not treason, is the means prescribed by the founders to conduct the nation's political business. Prosecutors with America's political system steadily in view will try Trump to protect that system.
Whatever consequences of a pre-election treason trial for Trump might follow, they will be better for the nation, and for every branch of government including the Court. Nothing which can happen if Trump takes office, by whatever means, including even a legitimate-seeming election victory, will put to rest the disruptions which will follow if the charges against Trump, and the witnesses and evidence supporting them, are never presented in public and cross examined prior to the election.
Try Trump to a verdict prior to the election, and it will be legitimate and proper to tell Trump's supporters, and to tell Trump's enemies, that either an acquittal, or a guilty verdict, is theirs to celebrate as a vindication of America's political system. Given where the nation finds itself now, there is no other way to get that result.
If Donald Trump is immune from criminal prosecution generally, that immunity would include prosecution for treason. If Trump were indicted tomorrow for treason, he would wait until the deadline for filing pretrial motions and file a motion to dismiss based on his claim of immunity. Whatever the District Court's ruling on that motion, the losing party would have a right to an interlocutory appeal. (Trump according to the prevailing interpretation of 28 U.S.C. § 1291; the prosecution according to 18 U.S.C. § 3731.) There is no way that such a prosecution would proceed to jury trial before the election.
not guilty, I defer to your better informed judgment on scheduling.
Given novelty, I think we must both speculate while considering whether any court would entertain for a moment a notion that the President of the United States was empowered by the Constitution to commit treason with impunity. My speculation is that any such assertion would either be dismissed entirely out of the judicial system in a matter of weeks, or would expose the Supreme Court to a widespread and unanswerable presumption of illegitimacy and political corruption on a scale never before seen. Why would it not open a prospect that the Court itself was intent on treason?
I think what you suggest implicates a complete and publicly recognizable breakdown of the justice system. I doubt even this Supreme Court would be bold enough to risk it.
What do you say?
"What this decision announced is that a right-wing claque solicitous of Trump’s political prospects "
Question begging at its finest followed by interminable prose on your favorite hobbyhorse.
A charge of treason is not going to happen. Get over it
Nico, I do not expect my advocacy to have any effect at all, save an increase in annoyance among some commenters here who like to present themselves as under-annoyed. I number you among that group. Someday perhaps you will reflect, and thank me for the annoyance I provided you. Annoyance seems to be what you attend these comments to experience.
On the other hand, I do think I am making some good bets, at zero cost. In effect I am betting the field in race characterized by win, place, and show contenders of unusually poor quality. I expect the passage of time, and a baleful-looking future, to make my present advocacy of a treason charge look relatively prescient, as the other contenders one-by-one fall by the wayside.
Or, perhaps we can find brief alliance, if the absolute long-shot we both prefer shows up the winner, and Trump loses in an uneventful election followed by his graceful concession of defeat. That’s been your bet, right?
lathrop, you want to impress me...Tell me which way interest rates will move and where they end up in the next decade? That is actually useful speculation. 🙂
Stephen, the Constitution sets a single, very limited set of conditions for the charge of Treason.
Under the earliest and continuing constitutional interpretations, it has always been a strong consensus that the charge applies only when the act constituting treason is in support of an enemy with which the United States of America is in armed conflict. We are not in a shooting war with anyone at the moment.
The last successful treason prosecution was in 1952, for actions in support of Japan during WWII. The last treason indictment was by the George W. Bush administration in 2006.
It is at least within reason that in your future scenario, Donald Trump could be charged and convicted of Sedition or Insurrection. But not Treason. No one in the United States is currently chargeable for treason. And that's a very good thing.
Under the earliest and continuing constitutional interpretations, it has always been a strong consensus that the charge applies only when the act constituting treason is in support of an enemy with which the United States of America is in armed conflict.
Purple Martin, thank you for replying substantively.
On the basis of that assertion quoted above, I take it as obvious that you are unfamiliar with the opinion of Chief Justice Marshall in a controversy connected to the Burr treason trial. The case is titled, Ex Parte Bollman and Ex Parte Swartwout. You can google that title and read the opinion.
If you do, you will see that my own advocacy for a treason charge has been in accord with Marshall’s typically detailed and systematic explanation of the standards to prove a crime, in this case treason. Until I read that opinion, I would have agreed with you.
I take it that Marshall’s explanation not only undercuts your assertion, but is in fact diametrically opposed to it. To, “levy war,” turns out not at all to mean what commonplace present-day presumption thinks it means. It is antique language, best interpreted exactly in the context its expert author not only gave it at the time, but also took pains to elucidate by multiple hypothetical examples. Thus, “To levy war,” is not, “To conduct war.” The former term is one-sided, connoting an attack, including even a stealthy attempted attack of which the target remains unaware. The latter term seems to connote the general war interpretation you have in mind. Marshall explicitly rules that out as a requirement.
Please do read that entire opinion, and then we can explore whatever substantive points you wish to advance.
I will be particularly interested to discover whether after reading Marshall, you continue with what I take to be a widespread tendency to recoil from the very notion of a treason charge. Many seem to regard it as too extreme to have any legitimate use at all. But nobody has yet responded to me with a reply to debunk Marsahll’s analysis. Maybe one exists, in later precedents, or by slippery-slope evolutions in judicial thought. If so I hope to learn about it.
I should mention in passing that your reference to the Gadahn case, as described, strikes me as one which would not qualify for conviction under Marshall’s standards. I would foresee a jurisdiction question, and especially a lack of evidence of participation in any current violent conspiracy featuring an overt action to put a specific violent plan in motion against the United States. Marshall is also specific that mere conspiracy, including recruitment of participants to carry it out, is not treasonable conduct without some overt action to accomplish a specific violent objective. You short description of the Gadahn case seems to omit that.
Trump’s case, on the other hand, seems to check all of Marshall’s boxes—with only one potential weakness to be overcome by evidence confirmable by 2 witnesses at trial—that Trump did have connection to the unquestionably treasonable violent conduct associated with the J6 Capitol attack.
I hope you can find time to read Marshall and reply. I have been looking for serious dialogue on this question.
"Or, perhaps we can find brief alliance, ... Trump loses in an uneventful election followed by his graceful concession of defeat. That’s been your bet, right?"
Here you are mostly correct, and I welcome the alliance. However, I don't expect a graceful concession; that is beyond the capabilities Trump, who is rotten to the core.
California has a rule that would be useful here. The Supreme Court may depublish a decision of the Appeals Court. The decision of the lower court stands without precedential effect. California Rules of Court 8.1115.
Sure, if the Court is no longer concerned about its legitimacy.
Convicted Trump for what? A standard political speech? And lobbying elected officials?
The 2020 election was unfair (for many many reasons). Are we really saying that Trump couldn't fight fire with fire?
In a triumph of American democracy and rule of law, Trump is not, in fact, being charged with giving “a standard political speech” or “lobbying elected officials”.
But that's all he did . . . .
Sigh, no, that's not what the actual indictment actually alleges. Your refusal to read it and/or your inability to understand counts 1-4 is not an argument.
At some point willful ignorance starts to look like bad faith.
Put in simple terms: if Don Corleone is charged with extortion and one of the pieces of evidence is a conversation where he says "nice shop, be a shame if anything happened to it ..."
Don C is not being charged with "having a standard conversation" or "talking to a neighborhood entrepreneur".
So you mean Trump is charged with giving a public speech, and having his words misinterpreted by the opposing political party.
No. You are disingenuously conflating "what he's charged with" and "one of the many pieces of evidence that support the charge".
It's really that simple. You're being an idiot, and believe it makes you look like Perry Mason.
When failed bank robbers get charged with conspiracy to rob a bank, and the evidence includes a taped conversation about arranging for the getaway car ... they are not charged with "having a harmless conversation about a mutual love for fast vehicles". They're charged for (all together now!) conspiracy to rob a bank.
If you refuse to even acknowledge what the charge is, you cannot possibly claim to understand it or effectively refute it.
"Censor harrassment, including our political opposition. Nice section 230, be a shame if something happened to it."
"if Don Corleone is charged with extortion and one of the pieces of evidence is a conversation where he says “nice shop, be a shame if anything happened to it …”"
Then you have to actually establish with evidence that it was an extortionist threat, not merely assume it was and proceed from there.
When juries interpret statements, those are called "conclusions," not "assumptions."
That kind of conversation happened frequently in the neighborhood where I grew up.
No one considered it a "standard conversation." However a Don would not say the words. He'd have one of his wiseguys to it...with the same effect.
The 2020 election was not unfair (for any reasons).
Many reasons. See:
https://csnbbs.com/printthread.php?tid=984285
Election rules were changed in 2020, to favor Biden. Millions of early and mail-in votes were never verified. Millions of votes were counted late, with no observers.
No election rules were changed to favor Biden. I don't know what 'never verified' even means. And no votes were counted with no observers.
Election rules were changed. These changes probably favored Biden.
Election rules were changed (which is, of course, fine; they weren't handed down on stone tablets at Mt. Sinai) in all 50 states. Do you think all 50 states, from red to purple to blue, were trying to help Joe Biden?
You, Roger S, are one dumb son of a bitch.
Literally.
Roger, studies with cites to original sources are widely available. From the conservative point of view (to differentiate from your PoV), go to lostnotstolen (dot) org for their 2022 report:
The landing page has a link to the pdf of the report, which, to give you a head start, includes:
But, of course, Roger, you will not do that, preferring to keep reciting the Trumpist sacred scriptures of either unverified or disproven “Election rules were changed in 2020, to favor Biden. Millions of early and mail-in votes were never verified. Millions of votes were counted late, with no observers” that the election crazies keep circulating in their odd obsessive echosphere, eternally convincing each other.
WaPo’s Philip Bump, in a July 14th 2022 article on the Lost, Not Stolen project may have described it best:
Some, perhaps. But not Roger.
I totally disagree.
Life isn't fair. How could the 2020 election be an exception to a universal rule as sweeping as that?
I will go so far as to say that the 2020 election was not so unfair that under our current expectations and procedures that there were any grounds for the results to be tossed.
That' bullshit and you know it. The refusal to ever scrub the rolls coupled with the mass mailings whether you asked or not, alive or dead then the intentional refusal to enact their own protection procedures and the midnight dumps purposely mixed in with other votes...yeah, normal Democrat will to power tactics.
Well, I have to say I was fraud curious after the elections, but while I heard a lot about a I kraken I never saw any real evidence of its existence.
Absolutely right David, the most secure election in the history of elections. Who could ask for anything more secure than vast quantities of mail in ballots, ballot harvesting and unmonitored drop boxes together with basically no signature verification with a sprinkle of poorly maintained voter rolls? And made even more secure by boxing up any view of the process and excluding those pesky poll monitors. I think frankly they overdid the security.
The procedural posture is unusual. The Supreme Court is not deciding if the facts alleged in the indictment support criminal charges. An innocent defendant can still be forced to go to trial. Only defendants with some form of immunity have a right not to be tried at all.
" It would also have been far preferable had the Justice Department acted more quickly to investigate and initiate prosecution than it did, but that was not to be either."
You really are loath to consider the possibility that the DOJ DID investigate, and concluded that they simply couldn't make a strong case that he was guilty.
The whole Biden/Garland/Smith purpose was to have an election year trial. Sure they could have had a trial a couple of years ago, but it would have been nullified on appeal and everyone would have forgotten about it by now.
They have been claiming to treat Trump like any other defendant, but that is plainly false, as they are trying to rush the trial before the election, for the purely political purpose of influencing the election. Maybe that will turn the public against political prosecutions.
When Trump is elected, I hope he prosecutes Biden, Garland, and Smith for abusing the DoJ to overturn the 2024 election.
You rubes are so easy to lead around by the nose. Are you still hoping Trump will "LOCK HER UP!!1!" for some crime you can't even articulate?
No. Unlike Biden, Trump did not prosecute his political enemies.
But that's what you want him to do...
I think Presidents should have immunity. But if Biden continues on his warpath against immunity, then he should be given a taste of the consequences. Of course he is a senile old man who does not know what he is doing, so I would not actually imprison him.
I thought the whole object of the "vast conspiracy" was to keep Trump out of office?
Now you're saying putting him in prison (effectively for life) in 2023 would have been a "failure" because it would have been too soon?
I'm sensing a slight unevenness of thought...
complete tangent:
Does anyone else read that in their head as "sh*tter"?
Does anyone not?
How else would one pronounce that delightfully descriptive moniker?
Zitter, as in xylophone.
Not intentionally.
Looks like the intarwebs beat me to the obviously-correct pronunciation of "xitter" by many months.
I still wonder whether the question presented might be at least as important to Biden as it is to Trump. At present, Trump seems more likely to be president at the end of January 2025 than Biden is.
“Whether and if so to what extent does a former President enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office.”
The question has implications for Biden.
Genocide is a US federal capital crime: 18 U.S. Code § 1091 – Genocide.
The ICJ has already ruled that SA’s accusation, which alleges that the State of Israel perpetrates genocide, is plausible. The ICJ ruling is like a magistrate’s report and recommendation.
The US federal definition of genocide and the international definition of genocide differ little.
Throughout the world experts in genocide law and in genocide studies call the actions of the State of Israel a textbook genocide.
In effect, SCOTUS will rule whether Biden can be criminally charged with genocide once he leaves office.
In Oakland during the hearing on Defense for Children v. Biden, Judge White asked the President's counsel whether Biden could be charged with genocide when he left office. The President's counsel evaded the question by claiming little knowledge of criminal law.
[Motion for expedited appeal has just been granted in this litigation. I don't have much hope that the Court of Appeals will overrule Judge White. The ATS does not clearly provide a cause of action against the federal government. Wouldn't the Federal Tort Claims Act have been a better statutory basis for the CCR complaint?]
The Zionist logic of mass murder genocide against Palestinians is exactly the same logic that Nazis used to justify mass murder genocide against Palestinians.
The Nazis always told us they were fighting Jewish Bolshevism. The Holocaust only started after Operation Barbarossa (invasion of the Soviet Union) began.
To the Nazis, all the civilian deaths were collateral damage of the war against Jewish Bolshevik terrorism, and every Jew including a baby was a Judeo-Bolshevik terrorist. The judges of the Nuremberg Tribunals laughed at this nonsense. The propaganda of Zionists and of supporters of the baby killer nation is equally if not more ridiculous and just as evil.
Adler's update seems nonsensical.
"Thus the lack of a stay suggests...', its hard to suggest anything, since there is an effective stay on the district court by taking the case. It may well have been apparent there were enough votes to grant cert, as Smith has already asked the court twice to do, so the question of a stay was never reached because it was moot.
And this is what Whelan had to say about it:
"This wouldn't mean that only 4 justices voted to grant cert. As law prof
@jacklgoldsmith
argued 3 weeks ago, a serious flaw in D.C. Circuit's reasoning (not in bottom-line holding) provided a strong reason for Court to grant review. https://lawfaremedia.org/article/why-the-supreme-court-should-grant-certiorari-in-united-states-v.-trump Court would be disinclined to leave problematic reasoning in place, as it could affect scope of presidential power of future presidents. 3/"
So is 18 U.S. Code § 1091 (Genocide) not applicable to the president because it “possibly conflicts” with the president’s constitutional prerogatives?
Does the president have the constitutional prerogative to perpetrate genocide, to conspire in genocide, or to assist in genocide? Is this prerogative part of the president's authority in foreign policy?
The US government signed, ratified, and enabled the Genocide Convention. Article VI Clause 2 tells us a treaty "shall be the supreme Law of the Land".
On Dec 11, 1946, the international community (including the USA) banned genocide and made this ban jus cogens.
Adler’s update with his speculation as to why the Court took the case is just that- speculation.
Here’s some countervailing speculation that I don't necessarily endorse: there were five Justices who wanted to grant a stay. Let’s assume that these also are the five most conservative Justices.
Meanwhile, the other four Justices know that they are powerless to prevent the Court from hearing the case eventually, but they also don’t want Trump to get a stay and spend time down at the DC Circuit. So those four Justices decide to grant cert, preempting any stay as being moot.
I think it's more likely that there’s a majority of the Court willing to reverse the DC Circuit and find that Presidential immunity exists in some form of a Nixon v Fitzgerald deja vu, but there is an insufficient record for the Court to determine which of the indicted actions constitute official acts. The Court would
To temper the backlash from the vitriolic left, the Court accepted cert but didn’t expedite the case as much as Smith would have wanted. They will be the case considered on an expedited timetable, but they won’t like what comes out of it.
Of course, I could very well be wrong. All I have is speculation, too.
I understand that the Court has to balance expeditious review with ensuring some thought occurs before judgment, and perhaps this explains why it wanted to hear from the Court of Appeals first and did not accept the United States’ earlier petition for writ of certiorari before judgment. At the same time, Mr. Trump is claiming a right to be free from being tried, so sending the matter back to District Court for trial would effectively be a negative decision on his immunity claims.
So this may have been the right decision. Mr. Trump’s application for a stay to give him to more time to file a future petition for a writ of certiorari was nothing but a time stall, and I think the Court appropriately didn’t take the bait. The stay application itself presented all the issues and arguments the Court needed to decide whether to hear the case itself or not. There was no reason to wait for a more detailed cert petition to arrive.
So taking the United States’ suggestion to convert the stay application into a petition for writ of certiorari and then granting and providing an expedited argument schedule (even if not quite as expedited as the United States had proposed) may have been the right decision.
I do notice that the Court has been increasingly exercising its discretion to rephrase and reframe the questions presented.
A petition for writ of certiorari before judgment seems most likely to be granted if there is already a potential companion case before SCOTUS. SCOTUS wants a judgment from an Appeals to be available for review. The Supreme Court becomes a direct Appellate Court from a Trial Court according to a statute that specifies a case should be tried before a three judge trial court panel.
The analysis of the conversion of the application for a stay is reasonable.
Because the application was converted into a petition for a writ of certiorari, SCOTUS had little choice but to present the question that SCOTUS wanted to answer.
Smith's petition for cert before judgement was not proper because he was the prevailing party below.
I'm not aware of any other instance where the Court has accepted a petition under those circumstances.
The applicable statute does not include aclause that would make such a petition for writ of certiorari to Court of Appeals before judgment improper if filed by the party, which had prevailed in before the Trial Court. Such a clause would not make sense because at the time of petition the petitioner would not know who will prevail before the Court of Appeals.
Have you ever seen a case where SCOTUS accepted a CBJ from the party that prevailed at the district court?
SCOTUS has granted 23 "before judgment" petitions since 1991. The sample is not large.The reasons seem to comprise mostly: a need for a time critical decision and and the presence before SCOTUS of a related case. The decision by the trial court might be completely irrelevant to the grant of review before judgment.
"It would have been better for the Supreme Court to stay out of this, rather than delay the inevitable. My fear is that they will issue a ruling that directs the district court to make specific evidentiary findings, which will slow down this case further and kill any chance of a verdict before the election. I appreciate George Conway's silver lining, but I think the SCOTUS decision did more to harm, rather than help, the rule of law." — Dave Aronberg