The Volokh Conspiracy
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Preview of Supreme Court Bump Stock Case
In Cargill v. Garland, the Court should apply the National Firearms Act text that Congress did enact, and not the text that gun control advocates wish had been enacted.
Tomorrow, February 28, the Supreme Court will hear oral argument in Garland v. Cargill; the case challenges the administrative prohibition on bump stocks imposed by the Trump and Biden administrations, via interpretation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The Supreme Court docket is here.
I co-authored an amicus brief in the case. The brief is on behalf on 9 U.S. Senators, led by Cynthia Lummis (R-Wyo.), 10 law/history professors, and the Independence Institute (the Denver think tank where I work).
Garland v. Cargill v. is not a Second Amendment challenge. The case is about administrative law: is BATFE's new interpretation of the relevant federal statute (the National Firearms Act of 1934) correct?
Despite the procedural posture, some gun prohibition advocates have been sending frantic emails to prospective donors, warning that if Cargill prevails, all of the bump stock laws enacted by state and local governments will be overturned. This is false. Presuming that the state and local laws were enacted according to proper procedures by state legislatures or city councils, a decision in favor of Mr. Cargill would have no effect on these laws.
The right to arms appears in the case only by implication, as explained in an excellent brief by the Second Amendment Law Center and other civil rights organizations: if BATFE in Cargill can get away with an egregious misinterpretation of the National Firearms Act, then BATFE's next step could be to declare that all semiautomatic firearms are "machineguns."
There are two main issues in Cargill v. Garland: first, principles of statutory interpretation. Second, interpretation of the statute at issue. The Senators' amicus brief addresses both.
Regarding principles of interpretation, the Senators are, unsurprisingly, much in favor of Article I of the Constitution, especially regarding federal criminal laws. Because criminal laws are so consequential, they should be clearly authorized by Congress, and should be clearly written so that citizens can obey them.
In two other cases this term, the Supreme Court is currently considering what do with the Chevron doctrine. (Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo; Relentless, Inc. v. Department of Commerce.) As applied by lower courts, this doctrine holds that any reasonable interpretation by an executive branch of an ambiguous statute is lawful. The Senators argue that even if the Court decides to retain Chevron for certain matters, such as business regulation, Chevron should not be applied to criminal law. Citizens should not be made criminally liable for changing whims of regulatory agencies; here, for example, BATFE ruled 10 times that bump stock devices like those at issue in Cargill are not machine guns. Then, on orders from the President, BATFE adopted a completely contrary, novel interpretation.
Before the Supreme Court, the Solicitor General is not relying on Chevron deference. However, BATFE invoked Chevron deference when announcing its anti-precedential new interpretation, and several lower courts in other circuits upheld the new interpretation on the basis of Chevron.
A second interpretive rule is the Rule of Lenity: in criminal law, an ambiguous statute should be construed against the government. As the Senators argue, Congress has a duty to write clear laws, and enforcement of the Rule of Lenity provides an incentive to do so.
According to the Senators' amicus brief, once all the normal rules of statutory interpretation have been applied, if the statute is still ambiguous, then the Rule of Lenity controls.
However, some (not all) Supreme Court precedent suggests that the Rule of Lenity applies only if there is "grievous" ambiguity. The amicus brief argues that the traditional standard (any reasonable doubt as to statutory meaning) is better rooted in the Anglo-American legal tradition, starting with the universally-accepted principle of the Founding that criminal statutes must be strictly construed.
The Supreme Court followed this approach in a 1992 case involving the very same section of the U.S. Code at issue in Cargill, 26 U.S.C. sect. 5845. See United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992). There, the plurality (Justice Souter) and the concurrence (Justice Scalia) both applied the standard rules of statutory interpretation, found that the statutory subsection was still ambiguous, and then immediately applied the Rule of Lenity, without considering whether the ambiguity was "grievous."
As for the statutory language at issue in Cargill, the National Firearms Act defines a "machinegun" as a that firearm fires "automatically more than one shot … by a single function of the trigger." 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b). Later, the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986 outlawed the acquisition of new machine guns (manufactured after May 19, 1986) by persons other than government employees, and also treated machine gun conversion kits the same as machine guns.
A bump stock does not fit within the statutory definition. A bump stock device makes a firearm operate much more rapidly; like a machine gun, an ordinary gun with a bump stock can fire about four times as fast as an ordinary semiautomatic. However, a gun with a bump stock still fires only one shot per "function" of the trigger.
The Solicitor General and her amici argue at length that "single function of the trigger" should be interpreted to mean "single pull of the trigger." But, obviously, this is not what the statute says. If Congress had enacted a statute that instead said "single pull," then the statute would have exempted the WWI-era Maxim and Vickers machine guns, whose trigger is pushed rather than pulled.
As a fallback, the Solicitor General and amici claim that Congress meant for the National Firearms Act to apply to all rapid-fire guns. But this plainly is not true. The Gatling gun, first patented in 1861, could fire 300 rounds per minute, and by the 1880s could fire 1,200 per minute. It is undisputed that the National Firearms Act does not apply to traditional Gatling guns, which are operated by a hand crank. (Electric-powered Gatling guns are another matter.) The BATFE has twice so ruled.
Notably, neither the Solicitor General nor her amici address the contradiction between their claims of what they want the NFA mean versus the undisputed fact that rapid-fire Gatling guns are not covered by the NFA. If Congress in 1934 had meant to restrict firearms that have more than a particular rate of fire, Congress could have enacted a statute that did so. Given the words of the statute that Congress actually did enact, Cargill v. Garland ought to be an easy case.
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Okay, I’ll bite: how is the Biden administration responsible for imposing this rule (which took effect in 2018)?
They're responsible for appealing the ban's having been struck down by the 5th circuit, leading to this very Supreme court case.
They could have just taken the loss, after all.
How is that imposing the rule?
Perhaps it's more accurate to say that the Biden administration is continuing to impose the rule.
They are certainly not giving the bump stocks back to the original owners. And as far as I'm aware, the rule is still in place which requires bump stocks to be surrendered to the ATF or destroyed.
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/bump-stocks/how-to-destroy#:~:text=Destruction%20Instructions&text=The%20bump%20stock%20must%20be,922(o).
Or they could have done a consent judgment like they do when they want the court's ruling to become law.
What's the name of the case again?
Oh yeah, Cargill v. Garland.
But you are right it is mostly Trumps fault, and I have to agree one of Trumps faults is to rely on executive orders, and rulemaking, rather than legislation, just like every other recent president, including Biden.
Actually, I'd say it's mostly LaPierre's fault, since Trump didn't do it until the NRA told him they had another batch of gun owners to toss under the bus.
"like a machine gun, an ordinary gun with a bump stock can fire about four times as fast as an ordinary semiautomatic."
Now, wait one darned moment! In fact, a bump stock does nothing of the sort. The rate of fire of a semi-automatic firearm is dictated by only two things: The action's cyclic rate, and how fast you pull the trigger. With practice you can learn to pull the trigger, for at least short intervals, as fast as a bump stock enables you to.
In fact, with practice you can learn to hold the firearm in a fairly precise improper manner, and accomplish the same sort of bump firing without any special apparatus at all. Just letting the firearm bounce in your hands.
I expect that anyone with a bit of mechanical knowledge should be able to build a bump stock with little trouble. Are we banning mechanical knowledge now?
Huh? It is not illegal to know how to commit a crime.
It's not a crime under the statute unless the gun fires multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger.
But that aside, the prohibition on machine guns that are not NFA stamped is unconstitutional. It doesn't say "shall not be infringed unless crooked perverted Democrats want to ban them."
That prohibition could probably pass muster if it were just a matter of paying a reasonable tax. (Not that the NFA tax was ever reasonable...)
Once they decided to stop letting people pay the tax, it became unconstitutional.
But they aren't banning machine guns under the NFA anymore. By '68 they didn't care anymore that the Constitution didn't give the federal government the power to ban things, an had dispensed with the tax fiction.
https://www.pagunblog.com/2012/09/13/united-states-v-rock-island-armory-not-a-loophole-in-nfa/
"Once they decided to stop letting people pay the tax, it became unconstitutional."
Right there.
Tell that to New Jersey.
Careful, the Biden thugs might decide that your hands are illegal.
There are triggers that will fire when pulled and fire again when released.
"if BATFE in Cargill can get away with an egregious misinterpretation of the National Firearms Act, then BATFE's next step could be to declare that all semiautomatic firearms are "machineguns.""
In theory, under the Miller precedent, wouldn't that mean that ownership of them WAS protected, since it is indisputable that machine guns have military utility?
Well, whatever the result, it's not going to matter in Hawaii if it violates the Aloha spirit.
You win this thread
if BATFE in Cargill can get away with an egregious misinterpretation of the National Firearms Act, then BATFE's next step could be to declare that all semiautomatic firearms are "machineguns."
Oh come on. The theory here, whether right or wrong, is that guns with a bump stock are akin to automatic weapons because of the mechanical action of the bump stock. This case has nothing to do with ordinary semiautomatic weapons.
Perhaps you missed the part of the BATFE ruling that bump stocks turn semiautomatic rifles into machine guns. If adding combining two parts creates a machine gun, it's not at all far fetched to think the BATFE will rule that the other part is also a machine gun.
I will repeat. The case is about whether bump stocks turn a weapon into an automatic weapon due to their mechanical action. That argument may be right or wrong, but it's the argument.
So it isn't a case about ordinary semiautomatic weapons, because there's no argument that they in fact fire automatically. Prof. Kopel is stoking paranoia and is being disingenuous here.
And I will repeat that your "a weapon" is actually "a semiautomatic weapon", not just any weapon. If you know so little about weapons that the difference eludes you, then you should educate yourself before looking even more foolish.
Sigh
Well no—it’s about whether a statute that covers a weapon that “shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger” covers a weapon that doesn’t shoot, isn’t designed to shoot, can’t can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, because the government thinks it still is too easy to fire too quickly.
Sigh
Do you really trust the "by any means necessary" crowd that far? If so I have a bridge for sale, cheap.
Congratulations on confirming my point about paranoia.
Gun controllers raving about "paranoia" after the past century is so over the top stupid it's actually offensive. Seriously, do they really expect everyone to suffer from a massive case of selective amnesia?
Clearly, they do.
No because the law does not criminalize things that are "akin" to automatic weapons. It criminalizes based on a very specific definition. The BATFE is trying to twist that specific definition to include a thing that they (and apparently you) think is "akin" - and importantly here, there is no limiting principle that to that ability to twist the definition. If they can twist it here to criminalize things you dislike, you've created a precedent that executive agencies can arbitrarily criminalize other things, eventually including something you do like.
"Akin" is not enough. If you think bump stocks should be illegal, go back to the legislature and make it so.
And a bump stock aids self defense or regulated militias...how?
Why does it have to?
The color doesn't matter either. Maybe you'd like to ban black rifles for cultural appropriation or some other made-up lame excuse.
You want weapons regardless...don't you, ABC?
You hate weapons regardless, don't you? You hate the freedom they provide, the individualism they represent in keeping the State at bay, don't you?
Try reading the Second Amendment again.
keeping the State at bay Plenty of ways to be for an individual right to self defense without fantasy land.
Plenty of strawmen to raise while ignoring the question.
Plenty of ways to be a dick when the courts rule against your woke agenda.
Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf : “…keeping the State at bay…”
There are a zillion fetishes. Only gun nuts are obsessed with their fetish being critically important. Get a bunch together and it’s inevitable many will begin to puff-out their reedy chests and brag how essential they are. You don’t see that level of delusion with – say – foot-fetishists or cross-dressers. It's unique to gun nutters alone.
Only statist cowards are so obsessed with fear of someone having the freedom to upset the State.
Point to where I said I was so critically important. Show me on the doll where I touched you.
Pretty hilarious! Two pieces of advice for you (whatever yer name is):
1. Wild-eyed spittle-spraying ranting hysteria isn’t a good look.
2. When you describe yourself as heroically “keeping the State at bay”, that qualifies as “critically important”. In your own mind, of course. All this is only in your mind.
Strawman?
Its a direct quote from your comment!!
Wait, so you DON'T think the founders were concerned about the right of the people to defend themselves against government tyranny?
I suspect they were of mixed opinions on the issue, like so many others.
But more importantly, 'keeping the State' in the present? That's fantasyland.
Name three.
Name 3 ways to advocate for an individual right to self defense without invoking bloody revolution?
Is that what you're asking for?
You hate the freedom they provide, the individualism they represent in keeping the State at bay, don’t you?
Yeah, I do. That, "representation," of individualism, whatever it means, is stark crazy. Any notion of, "keeping the State at bay," which has to be qualified by, "whatever it means," is stark crazy. Keeping the state at bay is sober business. Try to sound sober.
I want the Constitution regardless
Area man passionate defender of what he imagines the Constitution to be.
And you imagine the Constitution to just be a vehicle for imposing liberal policy preferences under the guise of a "living document."
Says someone arguing the Constitution instantiates their policy preferences.
If your main Constitutional principle is 'liberals bad' you aren't really defending the Constitution at all.
FWIW, I think there is an individual right to self defense in the Constitution, even if I don't love the policy bind it puts some cities in.
I think that by now, you'd have realized that, so far as the Court is concerned, you're the "Area man" here.
Area man passionate defender of what he imagines Bruen says.
Hey, if the Court comes back and clarifies Bruen, that's fine. But as it is you have written a gun rights regime in your head that the Court has not made.
At this point the direction the Court has gone on the 2nd amendment is so contrary to where you wish they'd gone that you're just in denial.
Where do you think I wish the Court would go? Because I am not sure myself, other than clarifying the state of 2A law.
"Paranoia"
Sarcastr0, anybody trying to convince gun owners that we're paranoid after the 90 years since the NFA was passed just wants us to relax so that the gun control movement has more chance of winning. It's as simple as that.
You're right. They don't. But actual full autos do. So let's keep bump stocks illegal but repeal the NFA.
As Prof. Kopel notes, this case isn’t about whether the Second Amendment limits Congress’s ability to ban or restrict bump stocks. It’s about whether or not Congress has actually passed a law that does ban or restrict bump stocks.
And that would seem to be the only real reason for it. Certainly not screwing around at a practice range, except as prep for support of those two reasons. So, opposite day.
They're fun if you have money to burn in the form of ammo. And, really, that's all the justification you need.
Once something is a RIGHT, the government needs a damned good reason to tell you what you can do.
"Banning this toy might mildly inconvenience people trying to commit rare crimes" is NOT a damned good reason. It's the sort of reason that survives rational basis review where no rights are implicated.
But gun controllers are absolutely determined to reason about gun laws as though the 2nd amendment didn't exist, as though it wasn't a RIGHT they were trying to infringe, just a privilege.
Bellmore, your comment is tiresome. Not an insightful or original thought in it. Just repetition of a commonplace error, to conflate debate whether a right exists with the question what is the extent of the right.
Every right, without exception, is bounded in its extent. Discussion on that question cannot legitimately be precluded by asserting the right exists.
Is the right to vote or get an abortion bounded? Do you think it should be?
Yes and yes. Of course.
And we are discussing whether this particular right is bounded in the manner "rights" are normally bounded, ("Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.") or bounded in a manner rights are normally NOT bounded. ("You right to swing your fist can be arbitrarily limited because somebody, somewhere, might punch somebody in the nose. And that there's nobody in arms reach of you is irrelevant!")
If you are going to use that argument then it is unconstitutional to ban machine guns.
It is, not that the Court is likely to have the courage or integrity to go there in my remaining lifetime.
You'd think the SEC would investigate people who bump stocks.
I won't say that wins the internet but it's still pretty damn good!
An SEC which attempted to regulate guns could not fail more conspicuously than the one regulating securities and exchanges. Which prospect seems worse?
"The rule of lenity" might be a standard way to look at ambiguous statutes or regulations but at the VC it's "the rule of whatever interpretation allows more gun and ammo sales".
The rule of 'whatever least infringes what is, after all, an explicitly guaranteed constitutional right.'
I know you really want to reason about this as if the 2nd amendment didn't exist, but why would we humor that desire?
Even if there is such a Constitutional right, no right is unlimited.
When rules conflict with rights, which should take precedence?
Mr. Bumble : "When rules conflict with rights, which should take precedence?"
A question asked by someone who's forgotten what common sense looks like, Constitution-wise. So I'll help with an answer:
It depends on the rule and right. For instance, someone who says "Donald Trump is a great leader" is delusional to the point of mental illiness, but has a First Amendment right to say so. Someone who yells "FIRE" in a crowded theater doesn't. In one case the right prevails; in one case the rule prevails.
Any questions?
So it depends. But when the rule does not comport with the law the rule should lose. Bump stocks do not turn semi-automatic weapons into machine guns.
Fair 'nuff. Whether the device can be regulated under existing law is a legtimate debate. But that's entirely separate from the Rules/Rights issue you raised in responding to captcrisis.
The fire in a theater quote was used in a SCOTUS case to justify prosecuting someone for distributing anti-draft pamphlets, you know.
Also I do indeed have the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. I have done so several times, in fact. I was on stage and it was my line.
To be fair, people are rather more chill about theater fires these days, given better fire resistant materials, lighting that doesn't rely on flames, and mandates for emergency exits. Back when Holmes made this excuse for censorship, theater fires were seriously scary, and even the suggestion that the theater you were in had caught fire could cause a panic.
You say that as if you thought you had a point. But you don't.
The gulf between, "This right isn't absolute" and "So we can arbitrarily restrict even harmless exercises if we claim some speculative indirect benefit" is astronomical.
A right not being absolute gets you to banning exercises that directly cause harm, or carry a risk of harm much higher than normal risky activities. It doesn't get you to banning harmless exercises for remote, speculative benefit.
This is correct. The 2nd Amendment being not unlimited means that municipalities can regulate, to a point, discharging firearms outside of emergency situations.
The 2nd Amendment being not unlimited that the government can apply generally applicable sales taxes to the purchases of guns and ammo. In other words, the 2nd Amendment doesn't require special privileges regarding taxation.
The 2nd Amendment being not unlimited means that the government can prohibit violent felons from possessing firearms. The 2nd Amendment being not unlimited means that the government can set up secure areas, such as courthouses, where firearms are not allowed.
The 2nd Amendment being not unlimited does not mean that the government can impose whatever stupid rule it deems to improve safety, without showing one scintilla of evidence.
The second amendment can only be limited in ways I approve of.
we can arbitrarily restrict even harmless exercises if we claim some speculative indirect benefit
I agree with this. The problem is, as these gun threads show time and again, what counts as arbitrary and harmless and benefit are all subjective, especially with a segment of the pro-gun folks who see the government coming for their guns in everything ever.
Paranoia creates an unrealistic and extreme take on what the law should be.
Sarcastr0, it's about 90 years to late to be talking about "paranoia", so stuff it.
It's a right. You can ban actual harms, like wrongfully shooting somebody. You can ban unreasonable risks, like target shooting without an adequate backstop.
But you can't ban stuff just because somebody somewhere might misuse it. That's not how rights, ANY right, works.
Yeah, I remember when they banned all your guns back in 1930.
It's a right.
You find infringement of the right of policies based on speculative secret agendas.
You also have a view of rights that is not how any right actually operates.
No right is under attack until it has been completely extinguished, that's your 'reasoning' here. And so we're obligated to wait until the last gun is banned before we resist.
Yes, I think you're an anti-gunner, and either in denial or lying, because nobody who isn't an anti-gunner resorts to such mind bogglingly stupid arguments for why the right to keep and bear arms isn't really under attack.
"Paranoia creates an unrealistic and extreme take" Now who's shouting and spittling?
Brett has accused me of being secretly for getting rid of the 2A, and lying about it.
Dunno about shouting and spitting, but that’s a fucked up way to be.
It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.
When governments impose or attempt to impose restrictions, over and over, that they admit won't reduce crime, at some point, you have to challenge your thesis that they're acting in good faith.
Here is an example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRc6xrHGCeg
There are tons like that. One thing you hear from blue state Democrats over and over is that magazine bans and "assault weapons" bans need a national solution. But if that's the case, then why do they even bother on a state level? They know it won't have any positive effect.
Because targeting law abiding people IS THE GOAL. Not reducing crime.
Brett Bellmore : "It doesn’t get you to banning harmless exercises for remote, speculative benefit"
On the distant planet Brett inhabits in some faraway corner of the galaxy, bump stock regulation didn't happen because the device was used by someone firing into a crowd, killing 60 people, wounding over 400, and injurying 867. The Las Vegas Massacre of 2017 never happened.
Or maybe he's a resident of our world, but just forgot after his (ever) brief moment of "thoughts and prayers". But it just illustrates the total disconnect with reality common to gun fanatics. Now there is a serious question whether existing law allows the regulation of bump stocks. And you might easily have a go claiming the device doesn't make mass murder that much easier (the "What Happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas" theory). But to blithely ignore the history behind this controversey just shows how blind gun religion makes folk.
Let me explain this, because you seem to be reluctant to understand.
When you ban people who have not already demonstrated a predilection for firing into crowds from owning bump stocks, on the basis that they might find the bump stock helpful if they some day travel to Las Vegas, and fire into a crowd, THAT is a remote, speculative benefit.
Because,
1) You have no basis for thinking the particular people whose exercise of the right you’re infringing WILL do any such thing.
and,
2) You know that virtually nobody ever does such a thing; You’re appealing to what is, so far as I know, the one solitary case of a bump stock related murder.
so,
3) The lack of particularized evidence, and the presence of statistical evidence to the contrary, combine to establish “remote” and “speculative”.
To illustrate, consider this reasoning applied to other objects. You’d have exactly as much basis for banning especially stout after market bumpers: They could be used to run over crowds, after all, especially in conjunction with 4 wheel drive.
And yet, you wouldn’t ban them, would you? Not even if some rare lunatic decided to drive through the crowd at a state fair. You’d, correctly, reason that he could have done it without the special bumper, that not one person in a million owning such a bumper goes on to commit that sort of crime. You’d think about it rationally. Why don’t you think rationally about bump stocks?
Because you don’t have any animus against automobiles, but you DO have animus against firearms ownership, despite it being a constitutional right. And so you’ll seize any excuse, however stupid, to enact any infringement at all of this right, because the benefit in your eyes isn’t the unlikely prevention of a mass shooting.
The benefit is that the right got infringed.
That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments in the gun control debate. Yes, it's true that "no right is unlimited". But let's look at what those limits are in other contexts.
Let's start with the much abused "can't yell Fire in a crowded theater" example. You still have the right to free speech but there can be consequences for irresponsibly exercising that right. The Second Amendment equivalent is that you have an absolute right to keep and bear arms but you can still be held accountable for wrongful use of those arms. In other words, the right to guns is limited by the law against murder. That's it. That is the full extent of the justifiable limitations on guns. You can criminalize irresponsible use - and we already do. All these laws trying to criminalize mere possession are morally wrong.
Not to mention that the actual quote is "falsely" cry fire. It had to do with fraudulently inducing a panic.
Though it's worth mentioning that, even when Holmes originated that bit of dictum, he was abusing it to justify political censorship...
The "fire in a crowded theater" is also a stupid analogy, because it has nothing to do with speech.
It's an act. If you don't think it's protected to falsely pull a fire alarm in a crowded building, then yelling fire isn't either, even if it comes out of your mouth in the form of speech.
Rossami : “In other words, the right to guns is limited by the law against murder”
Ya know, that just invivites us to substitute one analogous argument for another. To wit : Rossami says the right to own private thermonuclear bombs is only limited by the laws against incinerating entire cities. As long as you don’t nuke Houston, you’re fine!
If that doesn’t sound right, maybe Rossami needs to add a few qualifications to his sweeping dictum…..
And there we have the second-stupidest argument in the gun control debate.
Yeah! The Silver Metal!
That said: If it’s so stupid, please take a shot at explaining why.
It’s a typical fallacy - a logical error where one ignores the presence of additional categories or a continuum in favor of (falsely) claiming only extremes.
In Cargill v. Garland, the Court should apply the National Firearms Act text that Congress did enact, and not the text that gun control advocates wish had been enacted.
A prelude to a discussion turning on the question of what the meaning of, "is," is—with intent to promote mass insanity.
If in the mind of the BATFE, Gatling guns are not "machine guns" but bump stocks are, can I legally build and posses a small hand cranked device that I attach to an AR-15 style rifle that depresses the trigger for each turn of the crank?
What if each 1/4 turn of the crank results in depressing the trigger?
What if the device includes a bit of kit that allows customizing the device to a particular gun so it prevents attempting to fire quickly enough to cause malfunctions? Perhaps, for example, sensing the position of the operating mechanism of the AR-15 to skip a trigger pull as needed or just increasing the resistance on the crank to keep the time between trigger pulls to some fixed value that is suitable given the shooter's natural hand/wrist/arm strength.
After all, a distinct action of my human hand/wrist would still be required for each shot fired and, obviously, each "operation" of the gun's trigger would only result in one shot being fired.
And, of course, is any robot capable of firing a semiautomatic weapon a "machine gun"? If so, would the BATFE consider the hardware, software, or both to be a "machine gun"? What if the robot could also swap ten round magazines quickly?
http://crankfiresystems.com/index.php
Anybody trying to convince gun owners that we’re paranoid after the 90 years since the NFA was passed just wants us to relax so that the gun control movement has more chance of winning
I just want to highlight this gem of a Brett post.
'You telling me I'm paranoid is just proof you've got a secret anti-gun agenda!'
The reason I'm not paranoid is because it's not a secret agenda. It never really was.
Again I'll remind you: When the absolute strictest, outlier gun law in the entire country got overturned in the Heller case, Democrats went NUTS. When McDonald recognized that it was incorporated against the states, and overturned probably the worst city level law in the country after DC, they doubled down on going nuts.
You can't have all the idiots out there proclaiming that they only want "reasonable" gun control be outraged by the most unreasonable gun law in the entire country being overturned, without people figuring out what they meant by "reasonable".