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"Seven Questions on Section 3: A Response to Professor Kurt Lash"
A reply to Prof. Kurt Lash's response to the brief by Profs. Akhil Amar & Vikram Amar.
I asked Prof. Akhil Amar whether he was inclined to respond to Prof. Lash's response to the Amar brothers' amicus brief in Trump v. Anderson, and Prof. Amar suggested that I might publish a reply by Prof. Amar's research assistants at Yale Law School (Arshan Barzani, Samarth Desai, Jacob Hutt, and Jordan Kei-Rahn), which I am glad to do; all that follows below is their work:
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We are research assistants to Professor Akhil Reed Amar at Yale Law School. We write to address some spirited but misguided critiques Professor Kurt Lash has made in response to the amicus brief of Professor Amar and Professor Vikram Amar in Trump v. Anderson.
Respectfully, we also write to raise serious concerns about the reliability of Professor Lash's writings on Section 3 and to make clear what the historical record does—and does not—say.[1]
By answering seven questions, we will show that (1) there was a First Insurrection, (2) John B. Floyd, in addition to other Buchanan Administration officials, participated, (3) Section 3 is self-executing, and (4) Section 3 covers the presidency.
[1.] Was there really a First Insurrection?
Yes. In the months before Abraham Lincoln's inauguration in 1861, anti-Lincoln men in Washington plotted to undermine the Union and derail the peaceful transfer of power. Secretary of War John B. Floyd sent arms southward so that they would be "on hand when treason wanted them."[2] Lincoln arrived in Washington under the cover of night. "There is little doubt that he would have been assassinated if he had attempted to travel openly throughout his journey," President Grant reckoned in his famous memoirs.[3]
In a nutshell: Unionists feared that secessionists would storm the Capitol on February 13, 1861.[4] On that day—the equivalent of January 6, 2021—Congress would count the president-elect's electoral votes. But unlike in 2021, the Capitol's guardians, led by Brevet Lieutenant General Winfield Scott, were ready. Anyone who tried to obstruct the count, Scott promised, "should be lashed to the muzzle of a twelve-pounder and fired out of a window of the Capitol."[5] Though a "howling, angry mob" had triggered "much street-fighting," the count in the Capitol went off seamlessly.[6] That was thanks to General Scott.[7]
As Lincoln's inauguration approached, legislators again feared a "treasonable conspiracy, to resist the inauguration by force of arms [and] to seize the Federal capital."[8] Again, "a mob of soldiery organized from the States of Maryland and Virginia, and States south of Virginia, would have defeated the inauguration of the Chief Magistrate" if not for Scott's preparations.[9]
The insurrectionists of 2021 succeeded where their predecessors had failed. Spurred on by the outgoing president, they breached the Capitol, where the Confederate flag flew for the first time.[10]
[2.] Did Americans in the 1860s view the First Insurrection as an insurrection?
Absolutely, clearly, and contemporaneously. On February 7, 1861, six days before the certification of Lincoln's electoral vote, Representative Henry Winter Davis proclaimed on the House floor that "cabinet ministers have violated their oaths by organizing insurrection."[11] When one Vermont politician asked General Scott to ensure the peaceful counting of votes, Old Fuss and Feathers reassured him: if any man attempted "to obstruct or interfere with the lawful count of the electoral vote for President," it would be "my duty to suppress insurrection—my duty!"[12] Meanwhile, a New Hampshire newspaper blamed "[t]raitors in the old lady's Cabinet" for "supply[ing] the conspirators with the means of insurrection from the public arsenals," such that "General Scott [was] hampered in his measures to defend the capital."[13] All this before the Civil War began.
By 1868, the First Insurrection was deeply seared into America's historical memory. On the Senate floor in February 1868, as the Fourteenth Amendment was being drafted, Senator Jacob Howard called the conspiracy to prevent Lincoln's inauguration a "perfectly notorious fact"—so notorious that it was known even to "the humblest citizen of the Republic on the remotest boundary of the Republic."[14]
Professor Lash claims that there could not have been a First Insurrection because, in Howard's words, "there was flagrant war" by December 29, 1860, the day Floyd resigned.[15] Lash thus suggests that all insurrections at the time were part of the Civil War. The problem with this claim is that it contradicts a scholar who wrote in a 2021 book that "the Civil War began" only in April 1861, when "South Carolina fired on Fort Sumter."[16] That scholar is Kurt Lash. As it happens, the scholarly consensus on the start date of the Civil War agrees with (the 2021) Lash.[17]
[3.] Did John B. Floyd take part in the First Insurrection?
Yes, both in perception and reality. Floyd was a meme, an archetype, the Benedict Arnold of his time, the most infamous actor in a broad conspiracy to derail Lincoln from assuming the presidency.[18] This conspiracy scattered union forces, weakened the capital's defenses, sought to disrupt the electoral-vote count, and plotted Lincoln's assassination.
Before resigning in December 1860, Floyd used his office as secretary of war to scatter union forces and divert munitions away from key Northern forts, thus fortifying the South. Floyd's efforts heightened the threat to the Capitol in the weeks leading up to Lincoln's inauguration. Though General Scott was able to hold the Capitol, he had fewer soldiers and arms because of Floyd.
In the early 1860s, Americans understood that Floyd laid the groundwork for his coconspirators to derail Lincoln's presidency. On December 29, 1860, Justice Robert Grier wrote that Floyd was "a traitor & one who has conducted his office in a manner to disgrace this administration & plunder the country, & who is now plotting its destruction."[19] On February 7, 1861, Representative Davis declared that Floyd had "supplied arms to be forthwith used in making war against their rightful owners."[20] As Representative Isaac Arnold recalled in 1862, "There is no doubt now but that the chief conspirators—Davis, Floyd … and others— … intended to assassinate President Lincoln!"[21]
Floyd's actions cannot be—and were not—seen in isolation. The First Insurrection was much farther-reaching than one man's treachery. Not all actors in this vast conspiracy knew the names, much less the specific plots, of all the backstage actors. What they did have in common was a goal: to keep President-elect Lincoln from the White House. Americans who lived through the First Insurrection knew, to be sure, that Floyd would not be the one to pull the trigger on Lincoln. But they knew, too, that he would be to blame for giving aid and comfort to the assassin who would.
Professor Lash notes that the House found no centrally organized group planning a plot to foil the Inauguration. But the House merely found no unified organization directing such a plot.[22] Basic conspiracy law holds that conspiracies need not have central coordination. If A conspires with B who conspires with C, all are linked in one conspiracy—even if A does not even know that C exists (and vice versa) and even if their specific plans diverge in many details.[23] (This is why the Amar brief repeatedly speaks of, for example, "Floyd and other top officials" and "Floyd and his allies."[24])
The key point is that, in the minds of the framing Congress and ratifying public, Floyd was guilty for the plot during and after the war. The story of Floyd and his cabinet co-conspirators was the paradigm case that shaped Section 3.
In 1862, numerous senators who opposed seating alleged Confederate sympathizer Benjamin Stark invoked the specter of Floyd. If Stark could become a senator, they argued, Floyd could, too.[25] This debate helped motivate Congress to pass the Ironclad Oath—the statutory precursor to Section 3—months later.
In 1868, the Senate refused to seat Philip Francis Thomas of Maryland, who served as treasury secretary under President Buchanan.[26] Championing the refusal, Senator Jacob Howard argued that when "principal public functionaries" including Thomas and Floyd had resigned from Buchanan's cabinet, they had been perfectly aware of the cabal "endeavoring to … beleaguer the city of Washington with the design of seizing it … and, at all events, preventing the inauguration of President Lincoln."[27] Howard then singled Floyd out. "No man could be so ignorant and be in the Cabinet of Mr. Buchanan, as not to understand the tergiversations, the twistings, and the windings of John B. Floyd."[28]
Notably, Floyd and Thomas were infamous not for taking part in the Confederacy, but for their duplicity as members of President Buchanan's Cabinet.[29] Indeed, Thomas was never even accused of formally joining the Confederacy. His alleged treason occurred entirely during the First Insurrection before Sumter and included simply resigning from Buchanan's Cabinet—abandoning his critical post at a critical hour. As Senator Jacob Howard explained in 1868, "[N]o greater encouragement could have been given to the rebels than the resignation of the leading Cabinet officers … Does anybody doubt that John B. Floyd was a traitor? … Was Mr. Thomas any better?"[30]
[4.] According to Professor Lash, no one at the time said Section 3 was self-executing. Is that true?
No. Actually, many framers said the precise opposite.
Professor Lash writes that he has "not discovered a single person who thought the text was self-executing and capable of disqualifying a candidate prior to some kind of adjudication."[31] But the historical record has such persons aplenty.
In June 1868, Senator Oliver Morton declared that oath-breaking insurrectionists "will become disqualified the moment the fourteenth article becomes a part of the Constitution"—no prior adjudication or enabling legislation required.[32] Senator George Williams said much the same thing.[33] So did Senator Thomas Hendricks, even though he opposed the Fourteenth Amendment.[34] So, even, did Jefferson Davis's own legal team. (And Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, before he flip-flopped in Griffin's Case.)[35]
Then there is Grant, who also understood Section 3 to be self-executing and instructed his military commanders to act accordingly. When Brevet Major General Edward Canby accordingly disqualified candidates-elect in Virginia, his conduct received the personal approval of Representative John Bingham, a chief architect of the Fourteenth Amendment.[36]
And the list goes on.[37] Professor Lash's portrayal of the legislative and post-enactment history collapses under scrutiny.
[5.] According to Professor Lash, Thaddeus Stevens said Section 3 "will not execute itself." Is that true?
Not at all. Stevens was referring to Section 2, not Section 3. In repeatedly citing Representative Thaddeus Stevens for the proposition that Section 3 "will not execute itself," Professor Lash gets the historical record seriously and unfortunately wrong.[38]
When Stevens made this remark, the draft third section was an utterly different provision from what would become ratified as Section 3. This draft provision envisioned the disenfranchisement of millions of people, while the final, radically reshaped amendment mandated the disqualification from holding office of a few thousand oath-breaking insurrectionists. (The draft read: "Until [July 4, 1870], all persons who voluntarily adhered to the late insurrection, giving it aid and comfort, shall be excluded from the right to vote for Representatives in Congress and for electors for President and Vice President of the United States.")[39]
More importantly, when Stevens said, "it will not execute itself," he was referring not to the third section, but to what would eventually become Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment.[40]
Here is the proof: Stevens was responding to Bingham, who worried that this never-ratified draft third section would have required the federal government to send federal election officers into every state to prevent rebels from voting.[41] Stevens said that Bingham's concern applied with equal force to Section 2:
I say if this amendment prevails you must legislate to carry out many parts of it. You must legislate for the purpose of ascertaining the basis of representation. You must legislate for registry such as they have in Maryland. It will not execute itself, but as soon as it becomes law, Congress at the next session will legislate to carry it out both in reference to the presidential and all other elections as we have the right to do. So that objection falls to the ground.[42]
Stevens was saying that other "parts" of the "amendment" as a whole—specifically, the provision related to "ascertaining the basis of representation"—would not execute themselves.[43] That provision on apportionment evolved into Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which reduces congressional representation for states that disenfranchise citizens. Lash is thus doubly wrong to invoke a statement not even about Section 3, in a debate not even about the final version of Section 3. [44]
[6.] Have defenders of the "president is not an officer" theory produced even a single prominent framer or ratifier who clearly stated their position?
Not one, to the best of our knowledge. Despite repeated public challenges by Professors Amar, Mark Graber, and Gerard Magliocca, Professor Lash has not cited even a single participant of the framing or ratifying debates who clearly expressed his view that the president is not an officer for the purposes of Section 3 (that is, without immediately retracting their opinion).
By contrast, scholars on the other side have found dozens of examples of Americans referring to the president as an officer throughout the 1860s.[45] Countless others did, too, in antebellum America, including Alexander Hamilton in Federalist No. 69.[46]
Lash has pointed to Senator Reverdy Johnson.[47] But when Johnson expressed his view that Section 3 omitted the presidency, he was interrupted—mid sentence—by Senator Lot Morrill, who clarified that the presidency was included in the phrase "any office, civil or military, under the United States." Johnson then recanted. "Perhaps I am wrong as to the exclusion from the Presidency; no doubt I am; but I was misled by noticing the specific exclusion in the case of Senators and Representatives."[48]
[7.] The Ironclad Oath of 1862 expressly applied to all offices except the presidency. Doesn't that mean the presidency is an office?
Exactly. The Ironclad Oath, the forerunner to Section 3, applied to "every person elected or appointed to any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States … excepting the President of the United States."[49] By the rule against surplusage, the text of the Ironclad Oath demonstrates that Civil War Congresses viewed the president as holding an "office under the government of the United States."
Professor Lash has claimed, absurdly, that the Ironclad Oath "blows a hole through the already weak originalist case for disqualification" (even though he did not cite it in his brief to the Supreme Court).[50] How does a statute that expressly exempted the presidency from its coverage of all "office[s] … under the government of the United States" cut against the idea that the presidency is an office under the United States?
Lash points to Senator Lyman Trumbull, the sole member of Congress during the statute's drafting to argue that that presidency was not an "office" under the draft statutory language. But by the time the bill landed on President Lincoln's desk, Trumbull had yielded. In fact, he was the one who had offered the original proposal of language for an express presidential exception.[51] He did so because his colleagues were emphatic that the president was indeed an officer.[52] This statutory language was subsequently quoted dozens of times in Congress and reprinted in newspapers across the nation throughout the 1860s, making clear to all members of Congress and ratifiers that the president was indeed an officer.[53]
A single senator raised the idea that the presidency was not an office. In response, Congress spoke with one voice to resoundingly reject that view.
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In sum: Yes, there was a First Insurrection. Yes, John B. Floyd took part in it. Yes, Section 3 is self-executing. And yes, it covers the President as an officer of the United States. With respect to Professor Lash, he has gotten all of these questions wrong, seriously so. In addition to consulting the Amar brief and other briefs filed by distinguished scholars and historians, fair-minded readers with any lingering doubts about our analysis should follow the footnotes, scrutinize the historical record, and see for themselves.
[1] We are not the first to do so. See Will Baude & Michael Paulsen, The Use and Misuse of Section's Three's "Legislative History:" Part I, Reason: Volokh Conspiracy (Feb. 6, 2024), https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/06/the-use-and-misuse-of-section-threes-legislative-history-part-i; Will Baude & Michael Paulsen, The Use and Misuse of Section's Three's "Legislative History:" Part II, Reason: Volokh Conspiracy (Feb. 6, 2024), https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/06/the-use-and-misuse-of-section-threes-legislative-history-part-ii [https://perma.cc/93H2-7MAX].
[2] 1 Ulysses S. Grant, Personal Memoirs of U.S. Grant 226 (New York, Charles L. Webster & Co. 1885).
[3] Id. at 228.
[4] Ted Widmer, Opinion, The Capitol Takeover That Wasn't, N.Y. Times (Jan. 8, 2021), https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/opinion/capitol-protest-1861-lincoln.html [https://perma.cc/P9F6-ZXA3]; Ted Widmer, Lincoln on the Verge: Thirteen Days to Washington 190-94 (2020). On the latest episode of Professor Amar's weekly podcast, Professor Widmer unequivocally supported and endorsed all the relevant First Insurrection claims made in the Amar brief. Amarica's Constitution, 20 Questions on Section 3 and Insurrection #1—Special Guest Ted Widmer, at 20:50 (Feb. 7, 2024) [hereinafter Amar/Widmer Podcast], https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/20-questions-on-section-3-and-insurrection-1-special/id1549624070?i=1000644444574.
[5] L. E. Chittenden, Recollections of President Lincoln and His Administration 38 (New York, Harper & Bros. 1891).
[6] Id. at 46.
[7] Id.
[8] Cong. Globe, 36th Cong., 2d Sess. 909 (Feb. 14, 1861) (statement of Rep. Campbell).
[9] Cong. Globe, 37th Cong., 2d Sess. 432 (Jan. 22, 1862) (statement of Sen. Davis).
[10] Rhae Lynn Barnes & Keri Leigh Merritt, Opinion, A Confederate Flag at the Capitol Summons America's Demons, CNN (Jan. 7, 2021), https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/opinions/capitol-riot-confederacy-reconstruction-birth-of-a-nation-merritt-barnes [https://perma.cc/2RGP-AVL2].
[11] Springfield Weekly Republican, February 9, 1861, at 5 (emphasis added).
[12] Chittenden, supra note 5, at 38 (emphasis added).
[13] Exeter Newsl. & Rockingham Advertiser, Feb. 18, 1861, at 2 (emphasis added).
[14] Cong. Globe, 40th Cong., 2d Sess. 1169-70 (Feb. 14, 1868) (emphasis added).
[15] Kurt Lash, Section Three and the "First Insurrection" … That Wasn't, Reason: Volokh Conspiracy (Jan. 29, 2024), https://reason.com/volokh/2024/01/29/section-three-and-the-first-insurrection-that-wasnt [https://perma.cc/WVL2-DN5U].
[16] Introduction to Part 1D, in 1 The Reconstruction Amendments: The Essential Documents 312 (Kurt Lash ed., 2021).
[17] See, e.g., James M. McPherson, Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era 276 (1988) (referring to "[t]he outbreak of war at Fort Sumter"); Eric Foner, The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery (2010) 161 (with "the bombardment of Sumter[,] Civil War had begun"); David W. Blight, Frederick Douglass: Prophet of Freedom 339 (2018) ("Confederate insurgents fired on Fort Sumter … Civil War commenced."). In fact, the same day Floyd resigned as secretary of war, Justice Robert Grier wrote that unless the people rebuke it, secession will "be certainly followed by civil war." Letter from Justice Robert Grier to Aubrey Smith (Dec. 29, 1860) (on file with Dickinson Coll. Archives & Special Collections) [hereinafter Justice Grier Letter]. The justice evidently did not think the Civil War had begun yet, a natural point of view given that no shots had yet been fired. Grier is most famous as the author of the Prize Cases, in which the Supreme Court held that beginning in April 1861 the United States was engaged in a de facto war. 67 U.S. 670 (1862). The Court noted that Queen Victoria recognized hostilities once she learned "the news of the attack on Fort Sumter, and the organization of a government by the seceding States." Id. at 669.
[18] Brief for Akhil Reed Amar and Vikram David Amar as Amici Curiae Supporting Neither Party at 6-7, 12, Trump v. Anderson, No. 23-719 (U.S. Jan. 18, 2024) [hereinafter Amar Brief].
[19] Justice Grier Letter, supra note 17.
[20] Springfield Weekly Republican, Feb. 9, 1861, at 5.
[21] Cong. Globe, 37th Cong., 2d Sess. 858 (Feb. 17, 1862) (statement of Rep. Arnold) (emphasis added).
[22] Cong. Globe, 36th Cong., 2d Sess. at 913 (submitting the Report of the Select Committee). Indeed, in its report, the committee expressly confirmed that after Lincoln's election, "disaffected persons of high and low position … consult[ed] together on the question of submitting to that result, and also upon various modes of resistance. Among other modes, [they contemplated] resistance to counting the ballots, to the inauguration of Mr. Lincoln [and] the seizure of the Capitol."
[23] See, e.g., Pinkerton v. United States, 328 U.S. 640 (1946); Blumenthal v. United States, 332 U.S. 539 (1947).
[24] Amar Brief, supra note 18, at 9.
[25] Cong. Globe, 37th Cong., 2d Sess. 864 (Feb. 18, 1862) (statement of Sen. Trumbull); id. at 872 (Feb. 18, 1862) (statement of Rep. Henderson) ("[I]f we shall do justice to ourselves here, John B. Floyd … will never present [himself] upon the floor of any Senate."); id. at 927 (Feb. 24, 1862) (statement of Sen. Howe); id. at 970 (Feb. 26, 1862) (statement of Sen. Sherman).
[26] Professor Amar discusses Thomas in his recent guest essay for The New York Times. Akhil Reed Amar, Opinion, The Supreme Court Should Get Out of the Insurrection Business, N.Y. Times (Feb. 7, 2024), https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/07/opinion/supreme-court-trump-section-3.html [https://perma.cc/C6FZ-VLY7]. For the participation in the First Insurrection of Howell Cobb, another Buchanan Cabinet official, see Amar/Widmer Podcast, supra note 4, at 12:01.
[27] Cong. Globe, 40th Cong., 2d Sess. 1170 (Feb. 14, 1868).
[28] Id.
[29] Floyd was widely compared to Benedict Arnold before he was commissioned as a Confederate general, indeed before blood was even shed at Fort Sumter. Amar Brief, supra note 18, at 7 n.6 (citing newspapers referring to Floyd as "Benedict Arnold"). In fact, Floyd received little acclaim from Confederates for his actions during the Civil War. He suffered a series of military defeats that the New York Times quipped "restore[d] to the Government nearly as many arms as he robbed it of." He also abandoned his soldiers at a pivotal battle and was discredited with Confederate leadership. Floyd died half-way through the Civil War having "virtually been deprived of a command." Gen. J. B. Floyd, N.Y. Times, Sep. 6, 1863. To the extent he served as a hero for secessionists, it was for his conduct in the First Insurrection, not the Second.
[30] Cong. Globe, 40th Cong., 2d Sess. 653 (Jan. 21, 1868) (emphasis added); see also Cong. Globe, 40th Cong., 2d Sess. 1209 (Feb. 17, 1868) (statement of Sen. Morton) ("The President had to come here by stealth and in secrecy … . All this had been brought about by just such men as Philip F. Thomas—men who had given the rebellion the most powerful aid and encouragement by leaving the Cabinet publicly for reasons that were treasonable in themselves.").
[31] Kurt T. Lash, The Meaning and Ambiguity of Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment 61 (Dec. 29, 2023) (unpublished manuscript), https://ssrn.com/abstract=4591838 [https://perma.cc/Y564-D3LT].
[32] Cong. Globe, 40th Cong., 2nd Sess. 3009 (June 10, 1868) (emphasis added).
[33] Id. at 3008 ("[Offices held by] persons who will be ineligible under the constitutional amendment when it takes effect … will become vacated by the adoption of that constitutional amendment.").
[34] Id. at 3010 ("Suppose that on Monday … the Governor is eligible under the fourteenth article of the Constitution … . On Tuesday evening that Governor is inaugurated … . Then you may go on a few days more, and the constitutional amendment being ratified by enough States that man goes out.").
[35] Brief of Amici Curiae American Historians in Support of Respondents at 29, Trump v. Anderson, No. 23-719 (2024); Gerard N. Magliocca, Amnesty and Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment, 36 Const. Comment. 87, 105-06 (2021).
[36] Amar Brief, supra note 18, at 13-14. In a recent piece, Professors Josh Blackman and Seth Barrett Tillman ask why Canby disqualified oath-breaking insurrectionists from the Virginia state legislature if, as Professors Vikram Amar and Akhil Reed Amar wrote in 1995, the Constitution makes a "global officer/legislator" distinction. Josh Blackman & Seth Barrett Tillman, Professor Akhil Reed Amar and Professor Vikram Amar Retreat from Their "Global" Rule for the "Offices" and "Officers" of the Constitution, Reason: Volokh Conspiracy (Jan. 27, 2024, 10:27 PM), https://reason.com/volokh/2024/01/27/professor-akhil-reed-amar-and-professor-vikram-amar-retreat-from-their-global-rule-for-the-offices-and-officers-of-the-constitution [https://perma.cc/2W58-FAEQ]; Vikram D. Amar & Akhil Reed Amar, Is the Presidential Succession Law Constitutional?, 48 Stan. L. Rev. 113 (1995). The answer is because the federal constitutional global rule applies to the federal government, not to state governments. Thus, Virginia could properly view its legislators as officers under its own state constitution, even though members of Congress are not officers for the purpose of the federal Constitution. Indeed, under the Virginia Constitution of 1868, Section IV, state legislators took the same "Oath of Office … before entering upon the discharge of any function as Officers" that the governor and judges did. See also Brief of Amici Curiae Professors Akhil Reed Amar, Vikram David Amar, & Steven Gow Calabresi in Support of Respondents, Moore v. Harper, 600 U.S. 1 (2023) (No. 21-1271) ("Under a proper originalist understanding of 'legislature,' each state's people, acting though its state constitution, retained broad power to redefine the legislative system for all subsequent elections.").
[37] See Brief for Professor Kermit Roosevelt at 10-12, Trump v. Anderson, No. 23-719 (2024).
[38] See Lash, supra note 31, at 7, 9, 27-28, 39, 50-51; Brief for Professor Kurt Lash as Amicus Curiae Supporting Respondent-Appellee at 19, 21, Anderson v. Griswold, No. 23SA300, 2023 WL 8770111 (Colo. 2023); see also Kurt Lash (@kurtlash1), X (formerly Twitter) (Feb. 1, 2024, 9:23 AM), https://twitter.com/kurtlash1/status/1753061572384034954 [https://perma.cc/B2VY-52KP] (doubling down by accusing Professor Amar of making a "big 'oops'").
[39] Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess. 2542 (May 10, 1866).
[40] Baude and Paulsen, supra note 1.
[41] Id. at 2543 (statement of Rep. Bingham).
[42] Id. at 2544 (statement of Rep. Stevens) (emphasis added).
[43] Congressional apportionment, unlike disqualification, requires congressional action. How do we know? The Constitution tells us in plain English. "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct." U.S. Const., art. I, sec. II (emphasis added); see Amarica's Constitution, A Self-Educating Gaffe at 51:05 (Jan. 31, 2024), https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/amaricas-constitution/id1549624070?i=1000643616184.
[44] According to Lash, Stevens later said that Section 3 required "proper enabling acts" for its execution. Lash, supra note 31, at 38, 50. But this, too, was about Section 2, not Section 3, as demonstrated by … the rest of the sentence. Stevens envisioned "proper enabling acts, which shall do justice to the freedmen and enjoin enfranchisement as a condition-precedent"—in other words, legislation that would grant Black men the right to vote. Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess. 3148 (June 13, 1866) (emphasis added).
[45] Mark A. Graber, Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment: Our Questions, Their Answers, 17-24. Shortly before Congress debated the Fourteenth Amendment, Attorney General James Speed, a Lincoln appointee, and then-General Benjamin F. Butler referred to the president as the "chief executive officer" on multiple occasions. Ex parte Milligan, 70 U.S. (4 Wall.) 2, 18, 91 (1866). About a month later, both parties in Mississippi v. Johnson referred to the president as an executive officer, including Speed's successor, Attorney General Henry Stanbery. 71 U.S. (4 Wall.) 475, 479, 480, 484 (1866). These arguments before the Court, immediately before Section Three was debated and ratified, reaffirmed the public understanding that the president was an officer. Later, numerous others, including President Johnson himself, referred to presidents as "chief executive officers" and related terms. 8 A Compilation of the Messages And Papers of the Presidents 3510, 3512–13, 3516-17, 3519, 3521, 3524-25, 3527 (New York, Bureau of Nat'l Literature, James D. Richardson, ed., 1897) (publishing President Johnson's proclamations where he referred to himself as "the chief civil executive officer of the United States").
[46] E.g., Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 69 ("The President of the United States would be an officer elected by the people for four years … ."); see also Williams v. United States, 42 U.S. (1 How.) 290, 297 (1843) (referring to the president as "the one chief executive officer"); United States ex rel. Goodrich v. Guthrie, 58 U.S. (17 How.) 284, 310 (1854) ("The President, like all the other officers of the government, is subject to the law, and cannot violate it with impunity.").
[47] Lash, supra note 31, at 4-6, 9, 12, 33, 35-37, 39, 48; Brief for Professor Kurt T. Lash as Amicus Curiae in Support of Petitioner at 4-5, 11, 16-17, Trump v. Anderson, No. 23-719 (U.S. Jan. 16, 2024) [hereinafter Lash Brief].
[48] Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess. 2899 (May 30, 1866). Lash also relies on Blount's Case and Joseph Story's Commentaries, Lash Brief, supra note 47, at 9-11, both of which preceded the framing and ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment by decades. Worse, a House select committee rejected both sources on the very question of who is an officer mere weeks after Congress submitted the Fourteenth Amendment to the states. The committee called Story's view "incautious" and "not fully authorized" by Blount's Case. Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess. 3940 (July 19, 1866) (submission of the Report of the Select Committee). Lash also cites to an April 1868 editorial series in the Louisville Daily Journal. Lash Brief, supra note 47, at 12-13. For the many problems with relying on a single outlier source from an anti–Fourteenth Amendment newspaper that virtually nobody has ever heard of, see Mark Graber, Eureka Not: The President is an Officer of the United States Redux, Redux, Balkinization (Jan. 10, 2024), https://balkin.blogspot.com/2024/01/eureka-not-president-is-officer-of.html [https://perma.cc/EVA2-XURQ].
[49] Act of July 2, 1862, ch. 128, 12 Stat. 502 (emphasis added).
[50] Lash, supra note 15.
[51] Cong. Globe, 37th Cong., 2d Sess. 2861 (June 21, 1862) (statement of Sen. Trumbull) ("Now I move to amend the bill by inserting … 'and for whom the form of the oath of office is not prescribed by the Constitution,' so that if the amendment is made the bill will only require this oath of office from those persons for whom the form of the oath is not prescribed by the Constitution of the United States. As the form of oath is prescribed for the President of the United States, of course it will not embrace him."). This language was later changed to the "excepting the President of the United States." Id. at 3050 (July 1, 1862).
[52] Senator Willard Saulsbury, Sr., questioned the "competen[ce]" of Congress to "say[] that an officer who takes the oath prescribed by the Constitution shall not exercise the functions of the office unless he takes [an] additional oath." Cong. Globe, 37th Cong., 2d Sess. 2693 (June 13, 1862). As multiple senators during this debate reminded one another, the Constitution prescribes a particular oath only for the president. See, e.g., id. at 2861 (June 21, 1862) (statements of Sen. Trumbull and Sen. Saulsbury). And Senator John Carlile maintained that "the language of this bill includes every officer from the President down." Id. at 2871 (June 23, 1862).
[53] E.g., Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess. 1125 (Mar. 1, 1866); id. at 4168 (Jul. 26, 1866) (statement of Sen. Davis); The Proceedings of Congress: Senate, N.Y. Times, July 1, 1862; Oath of Office, Methodist, July 5, 1862, at 7; Constitutional Construction, Camden Democrat, Dec. 26, 1863, at 2; A Test Oath, Albany Evening J., June 27, 1865, at 2; An Oath for Office Holders, Phila. Inquirer, June 28, 1865, at 4; A Dead Lock—The Test Oath, New Era, July 4, 1865, at 1; Weekly State Gazette, Aug. 1, 1865, at 2; Should Traitors Be Admitted to Congress?, Chi. Republican, Nov. 17, 1865, at 4; Kentucky Contested Seats in the House, Cincinnati Daily Gazette, Jan. 24, 1868, at 1.
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Trying to compare an armed military insurrection by seceding state militias prevented by an armed military, to unarmed trespassers who were admitted to the grounds and escorted around the building by armed guards.
What a pathetic language English has become if the second is as insurrectiony as the first.
Keep flailing, un-American clingers.
How right-wing losers want to await replacement is their call (within limits established by better Americans), but this pathetic display should be embarrassing even among the antisocial and belligerently ignorant.
Racism, bigotry, and hatred
What we expect from the Left, the Rev always comes through with
Getting stomped by your betters in the culture war for a half-century has made you, like plenty of other worthless clingers, cranky and unpleasant. Feel free to die off anytime now, and take your defeated, ugly conservative thinking to the grave with you.
Poor, poor Rev.
You’re losing the global culture war.
You’re losing this new cold war.
And when the American right finds out what you’ve REALLY been up to this whole time, both globally and domestically, they’re going to murder you. Why would they kill themselves when they can start, at least after November of this year, to start Breiviking your lot in every Blue city in your crumbling country? (If you try to flee to our countries in the rest of the West, do you think you’ll find sanctuary or a noose?)
By the by, no serious person in actually civilized Western countries believes that what happened in January 2021 in Washington DC counts an ‘insurrection’, per American constitution law or any cognate conception. Your totalitarian tactics are now clear for the whole world to see. You are so keen on completely discrediting yourselves in your downfall.
So there was a First Insurrection?
Alas, the Supreme Court heard Trump v. Anderson, and history played almost no part. The few times history came up the questions seemed uninformed, the replies were interrupted, and no historical coherence emerged. The overall impression is that no one on the Supreme Court knows much history, or cares about it at all—however much they may tout originalism.
Also dismaying, at times Sotomayor looked like the the most insightful justice. My erstwhile hesitancy to criticize Justice Barrett is at an end. She presented as an uninformed twit. I was even more disappointed by Justice Jackson, from whom I had been hoping for great things. She asked one question about history which might have delivered crucial insight, but interrupted the answer as the insight was on the way.
The three extremists on the right were their usual selves. Alito and Gorsuch put nasty bullying streaks on display. Kavanaugh seemed pre-programmed, uncurious and dim. Kagan sounded arrogant, self-important, and above all, like someone who thinks staying in the mainstream is key.
Roberts alone appeared adequately judicious, and avoided missteps.
The principal advocates on both sides seemed wretched, but the Solicitor General of Colorado did better than the other two.
Just prior to today's session, Judge Luttig opined that this case stood to become one of the most important constitutional cases of all time. I will be interested to hear what he has to say now.
The pundit consensus afterward is that Trump won easily—with the usual palaver about the briefs laid on as a caution.
Neal Katyal suggested a dynamic for the future, with the Court happy to have let Trump off the hook on disqualification, but then turning around to put him promptly back on the hook by green lighting the insurrection case—with Trump's immunity claims out of the way. Time will tell, but Katyal's assessment looks like the obvious choice if the Court seeks to escape responsibility for political consequences and future happenstance.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Here's all the history you need to know:
"President" was included in early drafts, then was struck before the final. Anyone lucid knows that means it doesn't apply to the President
Folks who missed hearing the argument should take note of the Greg J comment above. It sounds more moronic than the actual arguments and questions, but it is substantively about as insightful about history as the justices seemed to be.
Folks who missed hearing the argument should take note that Stephen Lathrop doesn't have any answer to the question "why was the President struck from the list during drafting?", a question that IIUC was brought up by the insightful Justice Jackson
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/06/the-use-and-misuse-of-section-threes-legislative-history-part-ii/
Greg J, the answer to why specific mention was struck probably does not matter. Other originalist-relevant facts copiously support interpretation that the President is an officer of the United States for all purposes. My reason to agree is twofold. First, it makes sense, and conforms to both the historical record and ensuing historical practice. Second, I have not seen evidence to the contrary that seems like anything more than extremely attenuated pro-Trump advocacy. I think your reason is that you back Trump, no matter how little sense the arguments to do it make. If you think you know some other specific reason to make the question important, I will be interested to hear it.
Of course your reference to Justice Jackson does not mention that when she asked the question you dote on, she interrupted the response too soon to learn its answer. It was about the Reverdy Johnson incident, made famous in the historians' briefs. Like Jackson today, Johnson had asked during the framing of the 14A why the President was not included. He got back the reply Jackson would have got if she had not interrupted.
The reply was to direct Johnson to other language that already included the President. In response to which, Johnson confessed an error of understanding, and withdrew his question. The record does not show anyone else interrupted, thought otherwise, or continued that line of questioning.
In short, the issue came up specifically during the framing of the amendment, and got settled conclusively against your interpretation. What Jackson makes of that now is anyone's guess. Her clerks will not be competing with each other to be first to embarrass her by saying how unfortunately timed her interruption was, but she will likely find out that she blundered.
Greg J, the answer to why specific mention was struck probably does not matter. Other originalist-relevant facts copiously support interpretation that the President is an officer of the United States for all purposes
Yes, it does, and no, there isn't. To quote Mitchell:
the Commissions Clause, I think, is the strongest because it says "the president shall," you know, commission all the officers of the United States. "Shall" is mandatory. "All" is all-encompassing. And the president doesn't commission himself, and he can't commission himself.
"Officers" are appointed. NOT elected.
He wasn't.
To use your words, you are the moron here. "President" was "struck" in favor of the more general term "person". Its crystal clear, from the iterations of the proposals, that the framers intended to make it broader and more inclusive when they dropped the word"president" in favor of the more general and inclusive term " no person". And the record of the debates indicates that is exactly what they thought they had accomplished in the final version despite what Kurt Lash or you dumb ass says.
The Republicans basically despised the insurrectionists and their continued efforts to deny Blacks citizen's rights your stupid kind thinks the Republicans wanted to give those that they despised a bye on the presidency, the highest office in the land. Ridiculous. Same with the appointments clause. The president does not appoint officers whose appointments are already provided for under the law of the Constitution or law passed by Congress. And, gee, I guess the president is not the chief executive officer of the United Sates, nope he is maybe the Chief-Stock-Holder or Owner or King of the US and the Vice President is like his son or something in your hate demented f-ing little world.
“Feb 16, 1866, No officer, civil or military, of the so-called southern confederacy, shall ever be eligible to hold any office under this government”
“Feb. 19, 1866, No person shall be qualified or shall hold the office of President or Vice President of the United States, Senator or Representative in the national Congress,... who has been or shall hereafter be engaged in any armed conspiracy or rebellion against the Government of the United States … or who has voluntarily aided, or who shall hereafter voluntarily aid, abet, or encourage any conspiracy or rebellion against the Government of the United States”
"Mar. 8, 1866, No person who has been or shall be willingly engaged in rebellion against the United States shall exercise the elective franchise or hold any office under the authority of the United States or any State”;
“Mar. 19, 1866, No person, except a citizen of the United States who has at all times borne true allegiance thereto, shall ever hold office under the United States”
“April 1866, Until the 4th day of July, in the year 1870, all persons who voluntarily adhered to the late insurrection, giving it aid and comfort, shall be excluded from the right to vote for
Representatives in Congress and for electors for President and Vice-President of the United States.
In the Senate, it was re-written. On May 23, Michigan senator Jacob Howard said that he “should prefer a clause prohibiting all persons who have participated in the rebellion, and who were over twenty-five years of age at the breaking out of the rebellion, from all participation in offices, either Federal or State, throughout the United States.” New Hampshire senator Daniel Clark proposed limiting the measure to previous oath-takers:
“That no person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress or permitted to hold any office under the Government of the United States who, having previously taken an oath to support the Constitution thereof, shall have voluntarily engaged in any insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or given aid or comfort thereto.”
Yeah someone should have really briefed the case and addressed all the nonsensical, inane, incompetent briefs and arguments that trump and his democracy destroying conspirators glued together to deceptively omit the context, parts of the words or whatever they needed to make theye utterly false assertions but no one did so the US has what it has.
Oh yeah, no need for me to respond to your irrationally aggressive, communist loving US election interfering ass BS because nothing you say has any merit and you have no ability to get to the merit of anything.
To use your words, you are the moron here. “President” was “struck” in favor of the more general term “person”.
Really?
Then why did they include "Senator" and "Representative"?
Or are members of Congress not "persons"?
Nice venture into moronhood Bob
The Republicans basically despised the insurrectionists and their continued efforts to deny Blacks citizen’s rights your stupid kind thinks the Republicans wanted to give those that they despised a bye on the presidency, the highest office in the land.
1: The Republicans, that's my kind, hated the Democrats, that's your kind. See Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and the New Del, all of which were heartily supported by the Southern Democrats.
And in return, the Northern Democrats supported the "Lost Cause" BS, because you worthless pieces of shit have always hated America, and our written Constitution.
2: Unlike you democracy hating "Democrat" scum bags, the Republicans writing the 14th Amendment trusted that the American people as a whole would never elect an actual traitor to the Presidency, whereas they knew Democrat voters would vote for Democrat traitors. Which is why the restrictions were on ALL appointments (because they knew northern Democrats were scum bags who would appoint traitors to office), and on any position where the voting was confined to a single State.
Something that Justice Jackson clearly understood, even if you're too stupid to grasp it
“Mar. 19, 1866, No person, except a citizen of the United States who has at all times borne true allegiance thereto, shall ever hold office under the United States”
“April 1866, Until the 4th day of July, in the year 1870, all persons who voluntarily adhered to the late insurrection, giving it aid and comfort, shall be excluded from the right to vote for
Representatives in Congress and for electors for President and Vice-President of the United States.
Wow, look at that! They went from "shall ever hold office under the United States" to specifically naming elective offices they can't hold, then including all non-elective offices!
It's almost like your position is complete garbage.
No, wait, ti's EXACTLY like that
In the Senate, it was re-written. On May 23, Michigan senator Jacob Howard said that he “should prefer a clause prohibiting all persons who have participated in the rebellion, and who were over twenty-five years of age at the breaking out of the rebellion, from all participation in offices, either Federal or State, throughout the United States.” New Hampshire senator Daniel Clark proposed limiting the measure to previous oath-takers:
But, gosh, Jacob didn't get his way, now did he? Whereas Daniel did.
Thank you for this long history that shows just how stupid and wrong your position is
"Sotomayor looked like the the most insightful justice."
In an alternate universe maybe.
She's going to be sad again she lost again.
Maybe this will push her to retirement.
She might perk up when a group of new -- less bigoted, less white, less male, less superstitious, less antisocial -- justices join the Court and she begins to author majority opinions mocking Alito-Thomas-Gorsuch-Barrett-Kavanaugh dissents.
Sotomayor will never serve with more than eight other justices.
All PRC appointees when you lose this new cold war?
new — less bigoted, less white, less male,
Since you're probably the most bigoted person here, that was really funny
"Also dismaying, at times Sotomayor looked like the the most insightful justice. "
From Jonathan Turley's live tweet of teh hearing:
...Justice Sotomayor just asked Mitchell is he "is setting up" the possibility of some president running for a third term to bar the states on term limits. Mitchell responded "of course not."
...There appears to be confusion on the Court. Mitchell was referring to "Term Limits" as in U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton. Sotomayor asked why he kept referring to the qualification of term limits in the Congress. Roberts stepped in to clarify that this was a reference to the case.
So SL's "most insightful" justice is the one who can't remember that there WAS a SCOTUS case the struck down State imposed term limits for members of Congress, on the grounds that the States were not allowed to add more requirements for running for office than were in the US Constitution
Apparently she didn't read any of the many briefs that accused CO of doing that exact thing, quoting that exact case as they reason why they couldn't
The "insightful Sotomayor in action"
Trump's lawyer: A state cannot exclude any candidate for federal office from the ballot on account of Section 3, and any state that does so is violating the holding of Term Limits by altering the Constitution's qualifications for federal office
...
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: -- and to my colleagues generally. There's a whole lot of examples of states relying on Section 3 to disqualify insurrectionists for state offices
Gee, moron, that's because States have full power to decide qualifications for STATE offices.
What they do NOT have is the power to decide qualifications for FEDERAL offices.
President is a FEDERAL office.
This brainless drivel is what SL finds "insightful"
But states can keep unqualified candidates off of their presidential ballots. See Lindsay v. Brown, 750 F.3d 1061 (9th Cir. 2014); Hassan v. Colorado, 495 F.App'x 947 (10th Cir. 2012) (unreported). Note also that Mitchell's answer was not that states have additional authority over their own officers: rather, he agreed with Sotomayor's premise that his argument would preclude states from disqualifying their officials under section 3.
It's been roughly 155 years since the 14th was passed. The dweeb from CO had to agree that in that time, States have never, with one possible exception, kept someone off the ballot for being an "insurrectionist".
And the 14th doesn't say they can't be elected to office. in fact, by having the ability for Congress to remove the Section 3 "disability" it presupposes they can run and be elected.
They just can't HOLD the office without that vote from Congress.
You listened to a very different oral argument than I.
According to a Constitutional law prof, that singled out Sotomayor for her disjointed questioning.
Right. That was my point. That as mediocre as Sotomayor's performance was, she excelled most of the others. Roberts was better than the others, and better than Sotomayor.
I think the Court got exactly what it most devoutly hoped for—a chance to slink away from the case without being blamed too soon for the result. Depending on what happens, history may or may not take a more critical view.
Which is to say, she was the only one of the nine to even PRETEND that there was any legitimacy at all to your delusional positions.
If you weren't a TDS infected lunatic, you'd learn something from that.
Alas, the Supreme Court heard Trump v. Anderson, and history played almost no part
In all the stupid you wrote, that's the most stupid and dishonest.
To quote those harsh right-wingers at SCOTUSBlog:
https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/02/supreme-court-appears-unlikely-to-kick-trump-off-colorado-ballot/
Some justices looked to history, pressing Murray to provide examples of other scenarios in which states have relied on Section 3 to disqualify candidates for federal office....
Justice Brett Kavanaugh echoed Thomas’ emphasis on the absence of any historical examples as evidence that states do not have the standalone power to disqualify candidates under Section 3. He cited Griffin’s Case, an 1869 decision by Chief Justice Salmon Chase, serving on a lower court. In that case, Chase ruled, Section 3 can only be enforced through laws passed by Congress.
Although the decision is not binding on the Supreme Court, Kavanaugh suggested that one year later Congress had Griffin’s Case in mind when it enacted the Enforcement Act of 1870, which gave the Department of Justice the power to bring lawsuits seeking to disqualify federal officials. For 155 years, Kavanaugh concluded, no state has attempted to disqualify a federal officer from the ballot under Section 3 because “there’s been a settled understanding” that states don’t have that power. Moreover, he added, “Congress can change that” but hasn’t done so.
Got your history for you, right there. it's just against you, like everything else is
After listening to today's arguments, it's difficult to avoid the conclusion that it's time to move on. There is no reason to believe that most if not all of the justices will find a way to dispose of the Colorado case and slam the door on similar efforts by other states. Time to move on to the immunity case, where the consequences are greater and which I predict will end with Trump and his lawyers not being as happy as they probably are today.
Agreed that an insurrection requires “a mob of soldiery organized” [9] which is, as a matter of duty, opposed by armed forces of the United States under the absolute and sole control of the Commander-In-Chief (“my duty to suppress insurrection—my duty!” [12]). Accordingly, I agree that a Commander-In-Chief who fails in his duty can be reprimanded by Congress through the defined impeachment and removal procedure.
So, January 6 was not an insurrection and, even it was, Congress chose not to reprimand the Commander-In-Chief who had the duty to suppress any insurrection.
This was well written. Props to the research assistants.
I would say the same. They are students. They have to test their arguments.
I appreciate these moron's willingness to go on the record shortly before SCOTUS completely blows up their case, and claims.
Beyond that? Get your positions in now. Will SCOTUS strike down CO's ruling and block any other State from trying the same?
Will it be 9-0? If not, which "Justices" will vote with the morons like the above twits?
.
Get an education. Start with standard English.
Bigoted, half-literate right-wing rubes are among my favorite culture war casualties . . . and the target audience of a white, male, faux libertarian blog with a vanishing academic veneer* and a taste for endorsing un-American asswipes.
* how many more months?
There are several big differences here -- the biggest being that there was an actual plot to kill Lincoln in Baltimore which was foiled by Pinkerton.
Second, there was a defense of the Capitol -- which didn't happen on Jan 6th when the USCP stood down.
The insurrectionists of 2021 succeeded where their predecessors had failed. Spurred on by the outgoing president, they breached the Capitol
1: American "insurrectionists" come armed with guns. The Trump protesters did not
2: They got in because Pelosi WANTED them in. So if these writers were NOT delusional lunatics, the primary villains of the piece would be Pelosi and Miley (who kept the National Guard from responding).
But the Democrats wanted their Reichstag Fire, and by inviting people in and then getting their tools to lie about it, they got it
[7.] The Ironclad Oath of 1862 expressly applied to all offices except the presidency. Doesn't that mean the presidency is an office?
Exactly. The Ironclad Oath, the forerunner to Section 3, applied to "every person elected or appointed to any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States … excepting the President of the United States."[49] By the rule against surplusage, the text of the Ironclad Oath demonstrates that Civil War Congresses viewed the president as holding an "office under the government of the United States."
Good God these people are morons.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States
If people elected to office "hold any office, civil or military, under the United States", then there is no reason to include "Senator or Representative in Congress".
By the rule against surplusage, the text of the 14th Amendment demonstrates that the Congress that passed it viewed elected officials as NOT holding an "office under the government of the United States."
Fixed it for you, morons
Sure there is: senators and representatives are not elected to office; they aren't officers.
They are indeed elected to the Office of "Senator of the State of X" or "Representative of District Y"
Go to any of their websites, it says "The Office of Senator ..."
You really need to work on your ability to read, and to think.
The Ironclad Oath, the forerunner to Section 3, applied to “every person elected or appointed to any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States … excepting the President of the United States.”[49]
The ONLY "elected" Federal offices are President, Senator, and House of Reps.
Everything else is appointed.
If Senator / Representatives aren't covered by that "elected" part, then that means the ONLY "person elected or appointed to any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States" is the President.
Who they explicitly didn't include.
Which means that if your delusions were correct, they simply would have dropped the "elected" part, and then they could have left out the exclusion for the President.
By the rule against surplusage, your claim is clearly garbage.
Oh, and that means you're saying that Senator / Representatives weren't covered by the Ironclad Oath.
Which is quite the claim
Greg J, a tip to help you out with historical conjectures: anytime you find yourself writing, "would have," about history, the chance is 99%+ that the next thing you write will be, "Making Stuff Up."
Stephen Lathrop, a tip about logic:
If you could challenge the argument, you would have done so.
Since you couldn't, you babbled BS.
The entire "rule against surplusage" that the moron students so happily quote is based on the premise of making historical conjectures and saying what the writers would have done, if they didn't mean "X".
So, if we all want to agree that everything from the students is “Making Stuff Up”, then we're done here.
If not, then my point stands
More from Turly's live stream:
Justice Alito just asked Murray if military officers could have refused to take orders from a president who engaged in insurrection. Murray suggested no. But Gorsuch jumped in to say you said he was disqualified "from the moment it happens." This is a hit below the waterline for Murray and he is struggling.
...
...Murray stabilized the ship a little but saying that, while they are in office, impeachment is the only remedy for removal in such a circumstance.
Which, sorry, is BS. If Section 3 is "self enforcing", then it doesn't require "impeachment" to enforce it. here's teh text again:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States
It doesn't say "receive" any office, it says "hold" it.
Which means if Section 3 is self enforcing, then the minute you've decided someone is an "insurrectionist", they can no longer HOLD that office.
No impeachment, firing, etc needed
If I'm not mistaken, soldiers are required to disobey "illegal" orders, and that, theoretically, would include orders to participate in an insurrection.
If you're no longer President, then you're no longer in the chain of command, and can not give them ANY orders.
Trump was POTUS on 1/6/2021.
Yep. But according to the brainless twits pushing this, Section 3 is "self enforcing", Trump committed "insurrection" on 1/6, and no "insurrectionist" can "hold" the office of President.
Which means the "logic" of their position is that Trump stopped being President half way through 1/6/2020, due to the "self enforcing, no impeachment / trial / whatever needed" Section 3.
Which of course means that because of the treasonous way "President" FJB has given "aid and comfort" to US enemy Iran, a country that is at war with America, he's no longer President, either.
Because TDS means "never be able to consider the consequences of your actions"
That would basically read out the impeachment process from the Constitution (at least insofar as insurrection, rebellion and giving aid and comfort to the enemy are concerned). Of course, an amendment could do that, but it would also have to be clear that that was the meaning of Section 3, and I've never heard anyone--historically or currently--argue that was the case. Nice theory, though.
Well yes, that's why it's insane to claim that Section 3 is "Self-enforcing".
I'm pointing out why the argument that it is is BS. Thank you for agreeing with me
[7.] The Ironclad Oath of 1862 expressly applied to all offices except the presidency. Doesn’t that mean the presidency is an office?
Exactly. The Ironclad Oath, the forerunner to Section 3, applied to “every person elected or appointed to any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States … excepting the President of the United States.”[49] By the rule against surplusage, the text of the Ironclad Oath demonstrates that Civil War Congresses viewed the president as holding an “office under the government of the United States.”
What's that? The Ironclad Oath, the forerunner to Section 3, explicitly did NOT cover the President? But did cover Senator sor Representatives in Congress?
Gosh, so when the crafters of Section 3 dropped the "elected" part, and explicitly added "Senator or Representative in Congress", but did NOT add "President", it's because they were trying to get the exact same coverage as the "Ironclad Oath"?.
Which is to say they did NOT want it to cover the President?
Left wing politics makes people really stupid.
So does TDS.
I don't like Trump as a person. I didn't support him in the primary, and think he'll do a lousy job going to war against the Left as President.
But this doesn't force me to be a raving lunatic, which is what you have to be to actually believe that Section 3 applies to the President, or that Trump shouldn't be allowed on the ballot.
Could you all just try not being lunatics?
.
That war is not quite over but it has been settled, dumbass; the gape-jawed, superstitious, obsolete, rural bigots lost. The educated, modern, reasoning, liberal-libertarian, productive, urban and suburban mainstream won.
'The educated, modern, reasoning, liberal-libertarian, productive, urban and suburban mainstream won'.
No, Rev, you uneducated parochial twit, they haven't. Theirs is an evolutionarily inferior meme; they're literally breeding themselves out of existence and are happily being replaced by the uneducated poor of the Global South who don't and won't adopt their norms. (You need millions of such immigrants precisely because they don't share your values, most critically regarding families and breeding.) YOU are being replaced, and your moronic values will be dumped into the rubbish bin of history.
No one in the rest of the world is becoming like you, and they reject your suicidal ideology as both inferior and unjust imperialism. Indeed, you are despised and looked down upon from the left to the right across the world.
Relatedly, I've been toying with the idea that feminism and its sociological fruits (an ideology with a clear genealogy in Western Protestant norms, as Mackinnon herself basically attests) are a form of PROOF that white supremacism is false.
Transcript is up
https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2023/23-719_feah.pdf
MR. MURRAY: Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court:
We are here because, for the first time since the War of 1812, our nation's capitol came under violent assault.
Oh bullsh!t. if Jan 6 was "violent assault", then so was the Left's attempts to block the Kavanaugh vote. Then so was the rioting that happened during Trump's inauguration.
Then so were probably dozens of Left wing riots and "protests" that have happened since the 1960s.
Do you have to be a lobotomized ignoramus and moron to be on the Left, or does it just really help?
Puerto Rican terrorists actually shot up the House from the gallery in 1952 or so.
Weathermen set of a bomb in 1970 or so in the senate side.
There have been other armed attacks on Congress. Eric Muenter in 1915, the 1954 shooting you mention, Weather Underground in 1971, the Resistance Conspiracy in 1983 (plus other DC bombings in the surrounding year), Russell Eugene Weston Jr in 1998... People who claim this is a first since 1812 should be ashamed of their historical ignorance.
As to the White House, someone affiliated with Occupy Wall Street put two rounds into a bedroom wall -- one was stopped by ballistic glass and when the USSS went out and looked, they found another one in the adjacent wall.
The President (Obama?) and family weren't there at the time, and memory is that it was an AK.
JUSTICE KAGAN: But maybe put most boldly, I think that the question that you have to confront is why a single state should decide who gets to be president of the United States. In other words, you know, this question of whether a former president is disqualified for insurrection to be president again is, you know, just say it, it sounds awfully national to me. So whatever means there are to enforce it would suggest that they have to be federal, national means.
It might be 8-1, with Sotomayor the 1. But that's the best you can hope for, and I think 9-0 "get f*cked, TDSers" is more than 50% likely
That was a child's argument. It could be one State disqualifying Trump; it could be 50 States, but it isn't actually any of the States: it is the Constitution. The only question is, did the 1-50 States get it right? And only the Supreme Court can authoritatively answer that question.
And only the Supreme Court could answer that question for all 50 States, so yes, it would inevitably become a "national" question.
Tell it to Kagan, and Roberts, who were teh ones making that argument.
It's only SCOTUS "answering the question" if SCOTUS reviews everything de novo.
Which they aren't going to do
Sigh. Again, “self-executing” in 1868 meant anyone for whom there existed records they had served in the Confederate army, especially captured/paroled under arms. Such facts are no different than age or residency as a (dis)qualification. Trump’s actions on Jan6 are not in the same category, as was fairly discussed during today’s oral argument.
Congress contemporaneously passed additional legislation under section 5 to provide additional procedures. But there was little dispute about the major class of people disqualified by section 3. Trump’s alleged conduct is nowhere near that. Charge him with the federal crime of insurrection and we'll find out if it can be proven, instead of merely asserted. That's the rule of law.
The day that lefties actually start favoring the rule of law will be, well, never.
They're about will to power, nothing more
MR. MURRAY: Certainly, but if this Court affirms, this Court can write an opinion that emphasizes how extraordinary insurrection against the Constitution is and how rare that is because it requires an assault, not just on the application of law, but on constitutionally mandated functions themselves
Gosh, you mean like every time Code Pink or some other group of Lefties tries to interfere with passing a law, or confirming a nominee
Are you all completely embarrassed by this stupidity, or are you just too stupid yourselves to be bothered by it?
Are you gullible and dumb enough to believe that fairy tales are true . . . and that you should be a bigot because a fairy tale character has persuaded you to be a bigot?
The fairy tale creator god who created humans as equals? That gave them 'inalienable rights'?
Why would unequal evolutionary duds be deemed equal, other than according to some such made up fairy tale morality wherein humans are ascribed equal status? There's no logical reason to deem the gays (or anyone else) to be so. Any claim that 'people' JUST ARE equal, that 'common sense' requires treat them thus, etc, is questing begging nonsense. (We can also deconstruct and run genealogies of your conceptions of 'personhood', 'equality', 'dignity', etc, if you'd like.)
Or are you simply intolerant of different moralities, you bigot?
+1
JUSTICE ALITO: Suppose there's a country that proclaims again and again and again that the United States is its biggest enemy and suppose that the president of the United States for diplomatic reasons think that it's in the best interests of the United States to provide funds or release funds so that they can be used by that -- by that country.
Could a state determine that that person has given aid and comfort to the enemy and, therefore, keep that person off the ballot?
MR. MURRAY: No, Your Honor. This Court has never interpreted the aid and comfort language, which also is present in the Treason Clause, but commentators have suggested -- it's been rarely applied because treason prosecutions are so rare, but commentators have suggested that, first of all, that aid and comfort really only applies in the context of a declared war or at least an adversarial relationship where there is, in fact, a war between two countries.
Gosh, you mean like when troops supplied by Iran, i mean this hypothetical country, launch what are known as "acts of war", such as bombing a US military base and killing US soldiers?
Clearly both Biden and Obama are insurrectionists and traitors, and because Section 3 is "self enforcing", this means Biden is no longer President of the US (he's not allowed to "hold office"), so I guess that means the military must now stop listening to him.
The fun is never ending here
If that's what you think the 14th Amendment means, feel free to pursue the disqualification of Joe Biden on that basis. I doubt you'll get all the way to the Supreme Court with that particular argument, but it's your money.
I can see you're enjoying your moment, but long ago I realized that it's just not possible to prevent someone who is determined to misunderstand something from doing so. Sadly, disabuse isn't as much fun as abuse.
If you think that a positive ruling in this case wouldn't lead to about 20 States removing Biden from the ballot, you've apparently missing the entire "war of judges" started by the left in 1986, with Borking.
A little history review:
1986: Decorators destroy rule that "any qualified judge / justice gets confirmed" by rejecting Bork
1995-2000: GOP returns the favor with Clinton nominees
2003-2006: Dems start using filibuster to block judicial nominees when they're in the minority
2011 - 2013: GOP returns the favor with Obama nominees
2014: Dems nuke filibuster for everything but laws and SCOTUS
2017: GOP nukes it for SCOTUS, getting Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett
But still the idiots of the Left continue to believe that they can completely nuke all the previous rules, at no cost to themselves
Well that curated history says a lot about where you come from.
Rush Limbaugh listening made you a political expert, eh?
Do add to the history.
What's that? You can't, because I hit every single relevant point?
Yeah, thought so.
Why do you write such stupid drivel, Sarcastr0?
Seriously, even you can't actually be stupid enough to think that writing "you left all the relevant things out" qualifies as a valid argument, when you haven't provided even one single "relevant" thing that I "left out".
It's easy to see why you lefties are so in favor of big tech censorship: your ideas are crap, and your ability to reason / argue is also total crap, so you know that the only way you can "win" debate is to keep the other side from being able to speak