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Muller on Yoo and Delahunty on the Twelfth Amendment and the Counting of Electoral Votes
A critique of John Yoo and Robert Delahunty's suggestion that the Vice President has a role in counting electoral votes.
Could Kamala Harris resolve a dispute over competing electoral vote slates in the 2024 presidential election, perhaps choosing the slate supporting her own re-election as vice president? In a recent law review article in the Case Western Reserve Law Review, Professor John Yoo and Robert Delahunty argued that the vice president has a small, but significant, role in resolving such disputes (though not as great a role as Donald Trump or John Eastman claimed). Their article, while aligning with claims that had been made by other academics in the past, was quite controversial.
Notre Dame law professor Derek Muller responds to Yoo and Delahunty in the latest issue of the Case Western Reserve Law Review, explaining why their theory is wrong. Even if there had been competing slates of electors from individual states, the Vice President lacks the authority to resolve such disputes.
Here is how the article begins:
On January 6, 2021, the President of the Senate—Vice President Mike Pence—dutifully opened the electoral votes from the 2020 presidential election and read aloud the totals. He acted consistent with the direction of the Electoral Count Act of 1887, consistent with the congressional joint resolution approved three days earlier, and consistent with more than two centuries of congressional practice. Not everyone was convinced that the Constitution and laws of the United States obligated Pence to behave in this way—most notably, President Donald Trump, who had just lost the election and sought a way to turn defeat into victory.
On this, Professors Robert Delahunty and John Yoo agree with Pence. In their recent article here in the Case Western Reserve Law Review on the topic of the role of the Vice President in counting electoral votes, they conclude, "Pence was obliged to count the votes as submitted by the states." But they reach a different conclusion on who holds the legal power to count electoral votes and resolve disputes. They conclude, "Our theory leads to the conclusion that the best reading of the constitutional text, structure, and history assigns that role to the Vice President, not Congress or the judiciary." In contrast, "Congress has no substantive role in the process."
Congress has continually rejected this view for more than 200 years, and perhaps it is a reason Pence saw no such room for debate. Professors Delahunty and Yoo helpfully examine the history surrounding disputes over counting electoral votes and in places make appropriate conditions on the modesty of their claims. But this Essay explains why Congress, and not the President of the Senate, holds the power to count electoral votes and to resolve disputes over them.
Some details help frame the heart of the controversy. There are potentially three different responsibilities to consider when the House and the Senate join together before the President of the Senate for the counting of electoral votes. First, who presides over the joint session where counting takes place, and what is the role of that presiding officer? Second, who counts the electoral votes? Third, who resolves disputes about those electoral votes?
This Essay answers those questions. First, the presiding officer in the joint session is the President of the Senate, and she acts as any other presiding officer of a legislature. She initiates actions pursuant to precedent, parliamentary procedures, and the wishes of the chamber. And that means the chamber—here, the joint session—can constrain the President of the Senate as presiding officer. Congress did exactly that when it chose to further constrain the distraction of the President of the Senate in the Electoral Count Reform Act of 2022. Second, Congress counts electoral votes. The evidence in the text and structure of the Constitution and congressional practice before the ratification of the Twelfth Amendment supports this interpretation. Third, the power to resolve disputes runs with the power to count. And that means Congress also has the power to resolve disputes about presidential electors.
Separating these responsibilities is crucial because it can be too easy to conflate some of these activities, which in turn elides over the distinctions in responsibilities. When the presiding officer acts, she does so not to count votes, but to preside over the joint session and help it proceed according to the rules and precedents set by Congress. The actions she takes may resemble the substantive act of counting. But close scrutiny of the record reflects that the President of the Senate does not count, and has never counted, votes. That is because the power to count resides in Congress, where the Twelfth Amendment lodges that power.
The full article is here.
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I am surprised John Yoo hasn't yet written an article explaining why if Trump did shoot someone on 5th avenue, he would be immune from prosecution.
I'm surprised John Yoo wasn't disbarred and tried as a war criminal.
Don't give them any ideas....
Disciplining attorneys who commit professional misconduct is good actually.
I'm not.
DOJ lifers didn't want to discipline him because they stick together. That's why they disregarded OPR report arguing he should be referred to discipline.
State disciplinary counsel didn't want to do anything because they rarely go after people at firms or government. Trying to discipline someone for justifying war crimes would be a big lift compared to their usual job of going after some solo with IOLTA issues.
The academic circles that Yoo travels in are made up of constitutional law professors, who barely count as lawyers. These guys never teach PR or practice in courts outside of SCOTUS (if they do at all) and generally think they're above such minutiae as advising clients consistent with their ethical obligations. For them everything is just an academic debate, and they have no interest in enforcing professional standards on themselves.
Do you think Marc Elias should face sanctions?
For?
"Last year, the 5th Circuit judges determined Elias and others on his team refiled a previously denied motion without notifying the court the first effort had been rejected. Two of the three judges backed the sanctions, saying Elias had wasted the court’s time."
“This inexplicable failure to disclose the earlier denial of their motion violated their duty of candor to the court,” the judges ruled last year, adding the redundant motion “multiplied the proceedings unreasonably and vexatiously.”
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/2036536/judges-deny-democratic-lawyer-marc-eliass-bid-to-shake-court-sanctions/
Okay. So?
So should he face disciplinary actions or is that only reserved for Republicans?
John Yoo did NOT face disciplinary actions, didn't you know that?
So your point is that Elias got sanctioned by a court for misconduct in a case so Yoo shouldn’t have faced disciplinary proceedings for misconduct at OLC? Or what?
Never mind. It doesn’t matter. You don’t actually have a point. you just googled well-known liberal lawyers until you found someone who had a sanctions order noted on their Wikipedia page and hoped that I would come to their defense apparently.
If you wanted to make a point to prove my hypocrisy you could have found a case where a liberal lawyer didn’t face consequences despite strong evidence of misconduct. Of course that would require you to understand the professional responsibility rules and correctly identify something that constitutes misconduct which seems like a tall order.
You might want to read The Torture Memos before you -- in your obvious ignorance -- dig a hole too deep for you to climb out of.
The academic circles that Yoo travels in are made up of constitutional law professors, who barely count as lawyers.
That they treat Yoo with respect seriously lowers my estimation of them. It is disgusting behavior.
Why is someone co-authoring articles with him? Why are his articles being published? He should be shunned, not legitimatized.
Would torture be OK in the case of a 10-year-old rape victim?
Wait, I was thinking about abortion. That's always legal.
Trying to make a weird point about torture using the case of putting a ten year old rape victim through a full pregnancy?
"Surely you'd use torture to get a kidnapper to reveal the location of a 10-year-old kidnap victim whose life is in danger!"
24 has a lot to answer for.
Perhaps anyone who gives legal justifications for torture, abortion, or government-sponsored racial discrimination should be shunned.
Perhaps anyone who tries to equate the three should be laughed at.
You wouldn't shun Lester Maddox?
If shunning him made the kidnapper give up the location of the 10 year old, I guess I could manage it.
Trump's mistake was believing that if Obama was immune, he would be as well.
Obama shot someone on 5th Avenue?
Hmm.
Don't you just hate it when the President of the Senate is too distracting?
The Supreme Court has the ultimate authority to resolve all election disputes.
Just imagine if somehow Pence had joined Trump’s agenda, accepted some alternative electors, and declared Trump to be the winner. And then the SC ruled "looks constitutional to us".
Would Adler or anyone else have found that acceptable? It would have been violently chaotic, and the Supreme Court is tasked to just not allow the country to get into such suicidal zones.
" And then the SC ruled"
I guess that you also assume that the Congress accepts the decision of Mr Pence. In which case why is the result justiciable?
Regardless of what the Constitution says, there is also the principle of precedent — and after calling Trump an insurrectionist for alleging that the VeeP has these powers, I don’t think there would ever be tolerance for another VeeP assuming them.
Absent a shooting civil war, there also *can’t be* competing slates of electors the way there could have been in the 19th Century — we have instant communication and nearly instant transportation and the relevant (now full-time) state official in charge of certifying which slate of electors is the legitimate one can be — boots on the ground — in DC in 6 hours (12 hours from Hawaii). That wasn’t possible in the 19th Century.
Now we might have competing Secretaries of State -- the twit in Maine is probably going to get impeached -- but that is another story.
And I never understood how the VeeP ever had authority to do anything other then send ALL the state’s electors back to the state and let the state sort it out.
That was actually one of the branches (#5) in Eastman's memo gaming out the election challenge...
"That creates a stalemate that would give the state legislatures more time to weigh in to formally support the alternate slate of electors, if they had not already done so."
Eastman's memo was amateur hour. As a political wargamer, I was frankly embarrassed to have read it. MY hypothetical plans for a wargame about how to suborn the entire electoral process were MUCH better designed, and were written LONG before election day.
Every time he proposed an action, my immediate response was "Gosh, that might actually have been mildly useful, if you had planned it out four months ago and implemented it six weeks ago. A plan calling for that to be implemented ON OR AFTER January Sixth? What are you, a toddler learning about the concept of rules and schedules for the very first time?"
Honestly, looking it up and re-reading it to confirm my memory, I agree with you. It was irresponsible of him to not finish up with, "But, of course, it's too late for any of this, and none of these schemes are actually going to work unless lightning strikes."
A script writer for Mission Impossible could have come up with a more plausible approach.
> and after calling Trump an insurrectionist for alleging that the VeeP has these powers, I don’t think there would ever be tolerance for another VeeP assuming them.
The DNC has a big appetite for hypocrisy, especially when it increases their power.
Doublethink is the name of the game – and you can bet that if she did it there would be strong defenses of it being the ‘correct’ path ‘because its (D)ifferent when we do it’.
HIgh profile Democrats have, and still continue to, contest the 2000 and 2016 elections while screaming that any question about the 2020 one is 'election-denial!'
Democrats (such as Harris) should not be mentioned in hypotheticals concerning something only Republicans have dared to try.
Dementia is such a bitch.
Duh, buddy, she's the current VP and the one who would be involved this time around.
No she would not be.
Why?
Because this is solely a Republican situation.
If the last guy who owned my house murdered someone, I would be quite offended by discussions among my neighbors as to what would happen if I murdered someone.
Every aspect of this is profoundly stupid. If you want to give states a degressively proportionate weight in presidential elections, go ahead. But the idea that you need to have actual people voting and other people counting votes two months after the actual election to accomplish that should make every right-thinking person's head hurt.
the idea that you need to have actual people voting and other people counting votes two months after the actual election to accomplish that should make every right-thinking person’s head hurt.
I couldn't agree more. Are the state governments incapable of transmitting election results to Washington in some way other than sending personal messengers?
Problem with all of this is that the constitution does not have any provision for the VP or Congress to reject EC votes. It is quite clear that VP or Congress can not do squat other then count unless no candidate gets a majority of the votes.
Yes, but transforming ministerial roles into opportunities to exercise discretion has been a major trend in our government for something like a century or more.
I tend to argue that the Vice President DOES have the power to inform congress that there is a serious question about the validity of a vote placed before him, to propose a course of action, and to call for a vote on that course of action.
But that is the ONLY power he has, and he HAS to respect the outcome of the congressional vote.
I think it's happened once or twice before. I want to say... VP Nixon receiving two different electoral slates from Hawaii, with two different dates on them, one before and one after a recount? it wasn't enough to make a difference, so under the circumstances, Nixon just asked for unanimous consent to count the ballot with the later date on it, and he got it. But that's from memory, so I might have some of the details wrong.
Where in the Constitution does it give the VP that power. There is really good reason to keep choosing the President out of the hands of Congress.
Article II, Section 1, and again in the 12th amendment.
"And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted."
If the President of the Senate, better known as the Vice President of the United States, opens the votes and it is NOT obvious how they are supposed to be counted, then he has to ask congress for directions on how to count them. That's why he's THERE. in FRONT OF CONGRESS. With the VOTES IN HIS HAND. So he can ask for directions in confusing circumstances.
And as long as he's asking for directions, he may as well propose the most obvious solution as the starting point for debate, because why wouldn't he?
I think some version of that scenario has happened at least three times, where the Vice President opened the ballots, said "uh-oh, this is confusing", and then asked Congress "Do you want me to do Option A here? is that ok with everyone?"
Historically, There was the Hawaii late recount, the dead guy, and I think at least one other incident, where the Veep had to ask some version of that question. Congress's ANSWER to the question has sometimes.... varied. Sometimes they said "sure, whatever, doesn't matter", and sometimes they had a very lengthy and confused debate on the question.
Both original articles are interesting, but not fully developed. Interestingly, due to the cunning of Jefferson and Madison and the subsequent hastily written Twelfth Amendment, the Vice Presidential veto of legislation is absolute while that of the President is not: it is impossible for legislation to be enacted without the approval of the Vice President and it is impossible to force such approval. Prior to the Twelfth Amendment, this had the effect of giving the minority party (that is, the runner-up in the Presidential election) power to block legislation by the majority party without giving the minority power to initiate legislation.
A nuance was lost by enaction of the Twelfth Amendment: one bulwark against majoritarian rule was removed. The Fourteenth Amendment sought -- and modern efforts seek -- to further remove guards against undesirable majoritarian rule by a sole dictator and her/his sycophants, but that's another story.
Uhh? Other then casting tie breaking votes in the Senate, the VP has no role in legislation.
The VP used to have the power to hijack proceedings on legislative bills in the Senate by granting himself unlimited debate time, and then spending hours at a time giving non-binding 'advice' on what he thought about every single individual element of the bill in question, plus other pieces of free advice that had NO BEARING AT ALL on the bill in question.
But the first VP abused that power and ruined it for all future VP's, because the Senate retaliated by passing an internal rule stating that the President of the Senate wasn't allowed to talk about anything. ever.
The only vote on legislation the VP has is in case of a tie - otherwise the VP doesn't vote at all. Nor do they have a veto on . . . anything. They've never had.
I smell sedition...