The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
What If Trump v. Anderson Is Treated Like an Election Law Case?
An interesting analysis of the former President's brief challenging his disqualification from the ballot in Colorado.
Most folks commenting on whether Section 3 of the 14th Amendment disqualifies Donald Trump from serving as President again approach the question as a constitutional law question. But as the question is emerging, and is being litigated, it also raises a range of traditional election law questions, such as when and whether candidates for federal office can or should be removed from the ballot under federal or state law and the like, even if few are focusing on the underlying election law issues. (Anderson-Burdick anyone?)
Over on the Election Law Blog, Derek Muller has a post examining Trump's merits brief in Trump v. Anderson, noting that, whatever the Court does with regard to Trump and the 2024 election, the case has "the potential to be the most significant ballot access case in over 30 years." Moreover, while Trump has not leaned into the election law questions, Muller suggests that election law doctrines may offer more support for Trump's position (at least in the posture in which Trump v. Anderson arises) than the constitutional claims he is trying to make.
it seems increasingly likely, to me, that if the Supreme Court rules in Trump's favor (and by if, the likelihood seems to be declining), it will be on an election law ground related to ballot access rather than a substantive Section 3 analysis.
If one goes back to see how Madison Cawthorn and Marjorie Taylor Greene handed the challenges to their eligibility back in 2022, it was a very different strategy. The original challenges, citing Section 3, were filed in state court. The defendants then went on the offensive. They filed collateral cases in federal court; they secured some delays and temporary victories; they secured sympathetic opinions from judges at the courts of appeals that leaned into some of their arguments on election law issues on the power of Congress to judge qualifications of its members, squarely the kind of election law issue that is a threshold to any substantive Section 3 analysis.
Trump, however, has handled the cases very defensively. He never filed collateral proceedings in federal court on election law issues. He's largely settled into framing the case along the lines the plaintiffs have framed it, as a constitutional law case under Section 3. . . .
It would seem that this significant ballot access dispute would attract a lot more election law attention. But it has not. Indeed, very few election law scholars have weighed in and the amicus briefs, and those that have with in support of neither party, reflecting some hesitation, to some degree, and some questions about the underlying merits. (Disclosure: I'm one of them.) [Here is Muller's brief.]
But I want to focus on Trump's arguments in the merits brief. And I think it seems increasingly likely (in my judgment, anyway) that while this case has not been principally litigated as an election law one, it might end up that way, if the court is inclined to rule in Trump's favor. But if it does not move in that direction. I think it's going to be very difficult for Trump to succeed on the merits, and it seems increasingly likely that the Court will hold that he could be barred from the ballot on the merits of Section 3. Indeed, watching the litigation unfold, my sense today is that Trump's chances of success are lower than they've ever been.
As Muller sees it, most of the arguments presented in Trump's brief do not have much force, but we will see how the justices respond when the Court hears oral arguments in Trump v. Anderson this coming week.
Post-Script: I have made no secret of my feelings about Trump, and those feelings have not changed. I did not support his election in 2016 or his reelection in 2020. I believe he should have been convicted and disqualified from holding future office after his impeachment (either one), and do not believe there is any constitutional bar on "late impeachment." And I would love to seem him disappear from our nation's political life altogether. I am nonetheless not (yet) convinced that he is disqualified from holding office again under Section 3, and I am quite skeptical that Section 3 bars him from appearing on the ballot.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
"I believe he should have been convicted and disqualified from holding future office after his impeachment (either one)"
Where have you been the last 4 years? Are you still clinging to the notion that the laptop was Russian disinformation?
The FBI had the laptop during the first impeachment but said nothing. Later they received a report from a trusted human source stating that Joe Biden took bribe from Hunter's boss at Burisma. Dems went ahead with the first impeachment even though there were plenty of reasons for investigating Biden's alleged corruption.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/rare-move-grassley-releases-unverified-fbi-source-report/story?id=101531599
Did you get confused here between Trump and Biden? Do you smell toast?
The first impeachment was about Trump encouraging Ukraine to investigate the Biden stuff; Supposedly he was soliciting foreign interference in a US election by doing so.
So anything that tends to indicate that Biden SHOULD have been investigated is exculpatory. Not that he needs it, already having been acquitted of that silly charge.
Trump was not acquitted, that is in a criminal case, what happened is that he was not removed from office, that is a political decision. Any evidence that Biden should have been investigated is not exculpatory to the impeachment as he was not being investigated by the DOJ. Trump was attempting to force a foreign government to start an investigation.
"Acquitted" is what you call the result of a trial where the jury does not convict. So suck it up, he was acquitted both times.
As you yourself pointed out many times when impeachment was going on, it's not a trial it's a political action.
Facts don't determine anything other than the political price of your vote.
You pointed this out many times during both impeachments. I remember because it was a good, but sad, point.
Do you ever ask yourself why you've become so inconsistent, and what that says has happened to your principles?
"The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present."
If you're being tried, it's a trial, if you can be convicted, you can be acquitted.
You're just being an idiot here, because you can't bring yourself to admit that, yes, he was acquitted. Twice!
Brett, meet Brett:
Of course Trump COULD be impeached over this. He could be impeached over a bad comb-over. Congress could, if they were feeling humorous, impeach him for being an aardvark. And the fact that he wasn’t one wouldn’t do any good if the votes were there.
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/01/08/can-president-trump-be-impeached-and-removed-on-the-grounds-of-incitement/?comments=true#comments
You've 180'd your position from back then.
One thing you didn't change, though - in that thread you're excusing the guy who ran over the protester in Charlottesville.
I dunno why I felt so betrayed when you came out explicitly in favor of political violence; you've been there all along, you just moved from case-by-case apologetics to more a explicit general endorsement.
Yeah, the difference between impeachment and, say, grand theft auto, is that grand theft auto is a defined in advance crime, and "high crimes and misdemeanors" is "make it up as you go along" crime.
But in both cases you get a trial, and if the jury doesn't vote to convict, you've been acquitted.
Trump. Was. Acquitted. It's pathological that you can't admit that happened.
Acquitted means in the criminal context. This was not a criminal context.
You're just doing your usual 'Trump is innocent' nonsense, but being extra snotty about it.
And you changed your position to do it.
Acquittal has been used as the term for the failure to convict in an impeachment since before the United States was a thing. This is likely due to impeachment being a truly quasi-criminal proceeding in colonial America. It could be levied against private citizens, although this was rare, and could result in criminal penalties.
For contemporary usage, even NPR described the Senate's failure to convict Trump as an "acquittal." As did, like, every major media outlet, because that's the right word.
But don't read that as suggesting there are any special legal implications to it being called an acquittal. That would be a silly thing to believe; it's just a historical artifact. Likewise, an impeachment conviction doesn't carry implications due to sharing a word with a criminal conviction.
The correct term for what the Senate did is indeed "acquit". But, it is not a criminal acquittal, because the trial was not a criminal trial. Nor would such an acquittal bar Trump from being investigated for, or convicted of, criminal charges relating to the same events--double jeopardy would not apply.
So anything that tends to indicate that Biden SHOULD have been investigated is exculpatory.
He threatened to withhold military aid that he did not have the authority to withhold in order to obtain the announcement of an unrelated investigation, in order to benefit his campaign. The same way he is prevailing upon Congress to tank a one-sided deal on immigration so that he can campaign on "chaos at the border."
Trump did not then believe, and did not have any legitimate basis for believing, that Biden had taken any bribes. But even if he did, it was an impeachable offense to tie an opening of an investigation into his political opponent to the provision of military aid. Nothing about this is "exculpatory," save in the confused little minds of MAGA keyboard warriors like yourself and other frequent commenters here.
Once again, no: the first impeachment was about Trump illegally withholding military aid from Ukraine to extort them into announcing that they were investigating Biden.
Once again, no: the first impeachment was about Trump illegally withholding military aid from Ukraine to extort them into announcing that they were investigating Biden.
Wrong.
Trump was fallowing the law that stated funds to Ukraine could not be dispersed until, the Executive Branch had determined Ukraine Corruption had been addressed.
So President Trump was following the law
And he did this solely because of his famous and longstanding "anti-corruption" stance, which he applied to all, without fear or favor.
(In other words, yes, you will believe anything he tell you to believe.)
Wrong. There's a kernel of truth there: the pertinent aid to Ukraine, like all foreign aid and foreign military aid from the U.S., was conditioned on the State Department making certain findings (about human rights, about how the aid will be used, about corruption, etc.) But those findings had already been made. Trump was not "following" any such law.
If there was reason to investigate Biden then the Trump Administration' DOJ should have made that investigation. The first Trump impeachment was not over an investigation but rather his strongarming to get the Ukraine government to announce an investigation. Did you pay attention at all to the impeachment proceedings?
Anything the President's minions can do, the President can do.
Minions are not heads of state, don't be stilly.
For instance, the military works for the Prez. A soldier can shoot someone that the President, if they shot the same person, would get in trouble for.
Not true but par for the course for you.
There's an Election Law Blog?
There is an entire modern mainstream of legal academia; most Volokh Conspiracy fans are neither aware of it nor likely to become familiar with it.
"I believe he should have been convicted and disqualified from holding future office after his impeachment (either one), and do not believe there is any constitutional bar on "late impeachment.""
Well, he wasn't convicted, and it turns out, he didn't do anything wrong. The 'deep state' has been persecuting him since before he took office, fraudulently so. Making things up, in fact. If anyone should be impeached and convicted and removed from office it's Joe Biden. There is amply evidence of his corruption, much of which the FBI sat on to influence the election.
You, Prof. Adler, are obviously suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome. You just hate him, so you are willing to convict him in your mind.
Narrator: in fact, it does not "turn out" that way at all.
Tell me more, David.
Sure: it turns out that in fact Trump violated the law multiple times in multiple ways. There is no such thing as "the deep state," and thus he was never "persecuted" by it — or anyone else. And there is precisely zero evidence of Joe Biden's "corruption," which is why even the insane House GOP has been unable to find sufficient votes to impeach him.
You are living in a fantasy land. Deep state: FBI involved in the whole Russian collusion hoax, and so on. And zero evidence of Biden corruption? Ha, ha. That's laughable.
Love this flavor of comment: "you're living in a fantasy land!' ::proceeds to spin off into a web of conspiracies::
There was no "Russian collusion hoax." Both the nonpartisan Mueller report and the GOP-led bipartisan SSCI report confirm that. And the DOJ IG and even Barr's handpicked John Durham found that it was appropriate to investigate.
And, yes, zero evidence of Joe Biden corruption, which is why even the insane House GOP has been unable to find sufficient votes to impeach him.
No hoax, so you still think that it was real?
The Inspector General found 17 "mistakes" that went in one direction (no deep state working against Trump, just a long string of coincidences, eh?). Durham did not find that the investigation was appropriate. And Mueller exposed himself in his testimony before congress. Now FBI Director Wray says not to worry since all has been repaired at the FBI, but you seem to think that nothing was wrong to begin with.
https://apnews.com/article/durham-report-fbi-trump-clinton-2016-campaign-f3039e651eeb35a09091c363419e6766
I bet you get all dreamy watching Comey tell the audience ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxNhjFrjXqI ) how he was able to bag General Flynn by getting him into a room with two FBI agents and no lawyer, tee hee, fascism is fun! Since early 2020, the FBI has had a report from a trusted human source stating that Joe Biden took a bribe from Hunter’s boss at Burisma. Together with the laptop and Biden's bragging on video about threatening to withhold loans until Ukraine fired Shokin, that is far more than the FBI had regarding the launch of crossfire hurricane investigation. Not to mention that Comey was well aware that the dossier was BS before he leaked to his pal in order to get an Independent Counsel.
What is the "it" in that sentence? From the context of the rest of your comment, I think it refers to the dossier, and if so: no, that's not what I said. I certainly think "it was real" that Russia worked to get Trump elected, and that Trump welcomed that, because that was the findings of the two investigations I mentioned. They couldn't find any evidence of an explicit agreement between Trump and Russia, but that in no way makes it a "hoax."
The finding of the investigations of the investigation was that the FBI should have opened an inquiry rather than a full investigation. But that's just bureaucratic silliness.
Wrong. The FBI has a report from a source saying that someone told him that Joe Biden received such a bribe. The FBI's source had no firsthand knowledge, and conveniently, the source's source also said that the bribe was so well hidden that it could never be discovered. (And, lo and behold, it hasn't been! Nobody has found even one dollar going from Burisma to Joe Biden.)
What the fuck does "together with the laptop" mean? A laptop exists. There's nothing on it that indicates any corruption by Joe Biden.
Again: don't you think that if the loony House GOP had even one shred of evidence it would be the top story on Fox and Newsmax and OAN and Breitbart and The Federalist and such every single day? They've got nothing. Comer made himself a laughingstock by trumpeting that he found a few loan repayments from Joe Biden's family members to him. If he had evidence of monies coming from Burisma to Joe Biden, he'd be Donald Trump's running mate by now.
Dear Mr. Publius: Wow, now you have our attention! We are all waiting eagerly for you to produce the evidence that you are convinced exists. Anytime this afternoon would be great!
These delusional, QAnon-class, right-wing write-off are the Volokh Conspiracy's target audience.
Obsolete, bigoted clingers can't be replaced -- by better Americans, in the natural course as the old-timey dumbasses die off and take their stale, bigoted thinking to the grave -- too soon.
Odd, isn't it, how some of our favorite commentors disappear when they're challenged to show the "evidence" that they're always blubbering about. Kind of makes you curious about the fantasyland they inhabit, doesn't it?
I was doing other stuff, other than sitting here monitoring this discussion! But that said, it's pointless to argue with you guys. It's like competing in the special olympics; even if you win, you're still retarded.
There's no need to argue, Mr. Publius. It's just that you've asserted that you have "amply evidence" (I assume you meant "ample," right?) of Biden's supposed corruption, and we would all like to see it since no one has produced any so far. Why won't you share it with us?
The fact that we actually have lives is proof we're afraid to debate. You've been told that countless times.
Afraid to debate, Mr. Bellmore? You? On the Volokh Conspiracy? Is that a joke that I’m failing to grasp? And how is presenting the so-called evidence of President Biden’s corruption a debate?
The dirty 51 is a perfect example of the deep state in action including the FBI's enabling.
More silliness. First, the people to whom you refer were not part of any state, deep or otherwise; they were all retired. Second, there was nothing "dirty" about it (they did not say what you think they said).
Please tell us what you think they said.
Here is the most damning passage:
"We want to emphasize that we do not know if the emails, provided to the New York Post by President Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, are genuine or not and that we do not have evidence of Russian involvement -- just that our experience makes us deeply suspicious that the Russian government played a significant role in this case."
And does anyone with a brain believe that they did not know by then that the laptop was real, and that the Russians had nothing to do with it? The FBI had the laptop for nearly a year by then, they also had the receipts from Hunter's leaving it for repair.
Sigh. Once again: knowing that a laptop is real is in no way the same thing as knowing that specific emails purportedly coming from a copy of that laptop are real. (And for that matter, they had a receipt from someone leaving it for repair; the repair shop owner said he couldn't identify who dropped it off.)
Also, why are you talking about "the FBI" when the letter in question was not written by the FBI?
"There is no such thing as 'the deep state'"
You can call it the "permanent government bureaucracy" if you prefer to adhere to the terms of the modern public administration academy. But you don't get to lie and say it doesn't exist.
If you were talking about a country's bureaucracy, you wouldn't call it the Deep State, you'd just call it the bureaucracy, but they didn't, because they were trying to invoke something sinister and secret that undermines people who are, actually, just incompetent and kinda lazy.
Trump reminds me of a particular type of defendant. Both civil and criminal. Somehow nothing is ever their fault and everything is a conspiracy against them. And even when they have legitimate defenses and points in their favor, their awful personality and inability to control themselves, in both the formal court setting and outside it ends up tanking their case. But they don’t recognize that and think their own self destruction is part of the conspiracy.
I would say it’s remarkable that supposedly normal people act like this on his behalf. But then I remember that his biggest and most shameless defenders likely have this same personality too.
His defenders are mad at the world, which has rejected their Republican preferences.* Their support for Trump, Congressional Republicans, and QAnon is the last middle finger these gape-jawed dumbasses will get to flash at the mainstream that has stomped them in the culture war.
* Homophobia, superstition, racism, misogyny, transphobia, disdain for reality-based education, white nationalism, disdain for modernity, antisemitism, backwardness, disdain for modern America, Islamophobia, xenophobia, white supremacy, disdain for credentials, etc.
Just as long as they pay the bill...
This sounds like they know that the Section 3 argument has lost so are trying to save face by making it simply an election law case so that they can debate the Section 3 issue for years to come.
Who is "they?"
So, a President cant ask a foreign nation to investigate the payment of bribes, by said foreign nation, to the son of the former Vice President of the U.S.???? Said bribery being paid in the open and admitted to by the Vice President??? This is your thoughtful position? Then you are an imbecile!!
Needs moar question marks.
Needs more question marks???? And, more exclamation points!!!!!!
It's almost like there's an established legal process for conducting investigations, and it doesn't involve the president having his personal lawyers trying to extort a foreign country to announce fake investigations!
Also, there was no bribery, let alone "admitted" bribery.
(Nor, for the record, is Burisma a "foreign nation.")
Actually David, a President urging the head of state of a foreign country to do something internally (and leveraging US diplomatic muscle behind said request) goes back to at least Jimmy Carter and his human rights efforts.
And if some gung-ho US prosecutor was to attempt to indict Burisma in a US court, what would ye olde Federal judge say????
Actually, Serial Fabricator Dr. Ed, that is a mindbogglingly stupid comment. The president urging foreign heads of states to do something goes back to George Washington; that's pretty much the definition of diplomacy. But the president urging foreign states to investigate Americans for American crimes — which is what we're theoretically talking about¹ — does not. It is the DOJ's job, not the Ukrainian Prosecutor General's, to investigate and prosecute American politicians who misuse their offices. But not only was that not happening, but Trump deliberately cut Barr out of the loop; he never asked DOJ to investigate anything.
What do you mean what would a judge say? If Burisma bribed a U.S. politician, that would absolutely be a crime prosecutable in a U.S. court.
¹What we're actually talking about was Trump asking Ukraine to announce an investigation, not to conduct one.
“If Burisma bribed a U.S. politician, that would absolutely be a crime prosecutable in a U.S. court.”
If only there were a video of Biden threatening to withhold loans until Shokin was fired.
If only Shokin were willing to go on the record about his being fired for investigating Burisma.
If only a trusted source were to report to the FBI that he had knowledge of a bribe directly paid to Joe Biden, aside from the payments Burisma made to Hunter.
I am sure that if those had happened the FBI would have acted.
All they need is some evidence. Any evidence.
As noted above, you're mistaken. He did not report to the FBI that he had knowledge of anything.
As this plays out presently, there is no meaningful possibility of any impact to the outcome of the presidential election, the one where electors cast ballots. Only two states have proportional allocation, Maine and Nebraska. And it seems safe to assume that no state which would have a popular vote favor Trump would ban him from the ballot.
This is in contrast to the interstate compact movement to allocate electors based on the total popular vote. Such a maneuver would give greatly outsized electoral power to a very small number of actors within possibly a very few or even a single state. While Trump can safely write off California (he lost 2:1 in the popular vote), imagine the havoc that would occur if California withheld 6 million votes for Trump that he did win in 2020. That's a lot of disenfranchised voters, which could be manipulated by just a few California officials.
The danger playing out now is not the effect on this election; it likely will not. But rather the effect on future elections if the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC) happens. States would realize the outsize impact they could wield by simply making their reported vote tally xx-million to zero. The ultimate election steal.
"This is in contrast to the interstate compact movement to allocate electors based on the total popular vote."
No, this is NOT in contrast to the popular vote compact movement.
The National Popular Vote compact was a response to Republicans winning the EC while losing the popular vote. So, as you would naturally expect, only states that Republican Presidential candidates had no chance of carrying have signed onto it.
No swing states have joined, and they have strong reasons not to. Similarly no Republican dominated states have, or will, join.
So the Compact is never going to reach a majority of EC votes and go into effect.
no Republican dominated states have, or will, join.
True, for now. I wonder what happens when a Democrat wins the EC while losing the popular vote. That's not likely in the near future, but times change.
imagine the havoc that would occur if California withheld 6 million votes for Trump that he did win in 2020. That’s a lot of disenfranchised voters, which could be manipulated by just a few California officials.
HTF could California "withhold" those votes? And if they tried to somehow, the "havoc" would, I imagine, be a quick lawsuit that would end up with CA being ordered to count those votes.
"I wonder what happens when a Democrat wins the EC while losing the popular vote."
Republicans follow the rules and they know what the rules are going into the contest. Democrats are like the losing football team who bitches endlessly that they had more yards of offense but still lost. I honestly don't know why people tolerate this discussion anymore.
Is this the first time you've ever said the 2020 election wasn't "stolen"?
" I wonder what happens when a Democrat wins the EC while losing the popular vote."
That's not likely as long as California is a heavily populated 1 party state.
It's the same thing killing you in legislative elections: You don't get extra seats by bouncing the rubble locally; Your voters are inefficiently distributed.
Is it even constitutional?
Art. 1 Sec.10
"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, ... enter into any Agreement or Compact with another
State,..."
It would be OK with the Consent of Congress; I don't know if that's a tougher hurdle than getting states with 270 electoral votes on board.
Isn't there some law about headlines with question marks? If I recall, it means the answer to this entire thread is, "No."
Maybe in your small town newspaper.
But the question does not call for "yes" or "no."
Therefore your dictum does not apply.
I would have preferred "What would the consequences be of A?"
Clearly that ask the reader for a substantive response.
Nico, here you are, still commenting a day later without taking up my challenge. Here it is again:
Nico, read, Ex Parte Bollman and Ex Parte Swartwout. Then read the Abrams amicus brief. Then explain to me any element of treason Trump’s conduct has omitted.
I predict you will either ignore that challenge, or you will come back with counter-arguments which show that you omitted to read thoroughly both sources. Show me I am wrong.
As you can see, I did predict you would evade, but you can still prove me wrong.
SL,
There you are again. Avoiding my comment, because you were plain wrong.
As for your treason theory, that dog won't hunt. Therefore, no prosecutor has brought that charge, not even close. If fact there are not even charges of insurrection for which a far more robust case is present.
I have no time to do your assigned homework. I don't accept challenges from you just because you have some exotic theories. I don't ignore it; I decline to waste my time on it.
Now how about you responding to my comment that your small town editor's theory is wrong.
"What if....."
By treating Trump v Anderson in that manner, the case almost certainly will have precedential force. In that case I doubt a quick decision will be forthcoming. That would be a negative outcome regardless of the actual decision.
75 amici briefs filed in this case. No wonder Sotomyor is stressed out.
I'm surprised that Sotomayer has lasted this long...
They don't have to read the briefs. They may pool their clerks and have one or two clerks read each brief to see if it contains anything worthwhile. That was, and maybe still is, the way the court decided thousands of cert petitions per year. Stevens, I think it was, had his clerks read all the petitions while the other eight justices grouped all their clerks together.
Maybe they should ingore all of them. Doesn't seen to be much law on the matter and most of what has been put out seems to be mostly opinion with few facts.
"it seems increasingly likely, to me, that if the Supreme Court rules in Trump's favor (and by if, the likelihood seems to be declining)"
I've been seeing this a lot lately, but always from people who have been convinced all along that Trump is guilty as hell. (Of everything anybody accuses him of, not just 'insurrection'.) And they never bother to detail WHY the likelihood is declining.
So, it's unclear to me if there's been some recent developments that actually indicate this, or they're just wishcasting.
So, HAVE there been any recent developments to suggest that?
You think Trump is innocent of everything.
People who think Trump did stuff, are pointing to judicial actions. Those have some threshold of objectivity to them. Or do to anyone who isn't coming in with Trump being axiomatically innocent.
People who think Biden is guilty of stuff, point to repeated liar Comer, when they're not spinning into QAnon about all Dems.
What is the QAnon equivalent for Biden? If there isn't one, what does that say about the left versus the right?
You're so sure of Trump being innocent of everything, you have said you think political violence would be legit if any of the court cases against him came to fruition.
Your personal hot takes over the institutions America charges with finding out facts, and administering the law. Or else there will be blood. Other people's blood, natch.
When are you planning on writing about life in an alternate universe?
Objection; utterly non-responsive. Will the court reporter please repeat the question:
“So, HAVE there been any recent developments to suggest that [the likelihood has been declining?]”
I think Trump is innocent of Insurrection and Treason because he hasn't even been charged with either crime.
I do know he did scheme try to throw the outcome of the election back to several state legislatures that he thought might be able to overturn the election. I'm not sure that was criminal.
I think it was arguably scummy, but trying to get people with ministerial roles to exercise discretion in your favor anyway is regrettably common in the last couple of decades worth of elections.
Every time the Democrats tried to get electors to be unfaithful, they were no more or less guilty of trying to steal a Presidential election.
.
That's because you are a delusional, antisocial, neurodiverse hayseed and a disaffected, obsolete, bigoted culture war casualty residing in America's can't-keep-up wasteland. You not only have never met a conspiracy theory your contrarian brain hasn't embraced but also have created a few.
Your next worthwhile civic contribution to American society and reasoned debate will occur at replacement.
'they were no more or less guilty of trying to steal a Presidential election.'
Are you lying or have you actually persuaded yourself this is the case?
Nige, WHY did they try to get the electors to be unfaithful?
As a practical joke?
No, they were trying to arrange for the loser of the election to “win”.
Democrats trying to use political pressure to get Trump electors to vote for Hillary is no different at all from Trump trying to use political pressure to get Congress to count to “Trump won” when the electors had actually voted for Biden.
In fact, as you go up the chain, the criminality becomes less obvious.
At the bottom, you could encourage the guys actually counting the ballots in a close state to apply a thumb to the scale in close cases. Maybe even get a state Supreme court to tell them it’s OK, they’re not required to use the same standards from ballot to ballot. Whoa, that is seriously criminal!
Moving up a bit, you could encourage the electors pledged, and even mandated by state law to follow through, to one candidate, to cast their vote for the opposing candidate. Oh, wait, those pesky state laws, you’re asking them to commit crimes!
At the top level, you could encourage the members of Congress charged with counting those electoral votes to stop, say, “Hey, there are two slates from this state! Welp, guess I’ll count the one for Trump!” Hard to find a law that specifically makes that illegal, though you could probably stretch a law about interfering with official proceedings to cover it, if you squinted.
In all three cases, same thing: You use political pressure to encourage people in ministerial roles to exercise discretion, instead, so that your guy ‘wins’ even though the voters had actually elected the other guy.
But, gee, it’s only the last case that offends you. I wonder why?
'Democrats trying to use political pressure to get Trump electors to vote for Hillary'
Sure, if they allegedly broke laws in the process, it would be the same. I get that this is an insignificant distinction for you, but there it is.
'I wonder why?'
Because it's the one that actually happened, only not in the sanitised form you prefer to believe in.
.
Would you agree it is a High Crime?
The Senate didn't think so, so I'm going to have to defer to their judgment.
That's a ridiculous cop out. You have no opinion, so you rely on a minority of senators? Why not rely on the majority in both houses of Congress? Better yet, how about not copping out and give us your opinion without an appeal to authority.
That's not a cop-out. The Senate was actually constitutionally assigned the responsibility to make that judgement.
SFW. Try reading for comprehension next time.
'I think Trump is innocent of Insurrection and Treason because he hasn’t even been charged with either crime.'
People get away with crimes all the time. You don't need a conviction to judge his actions come election time. You don't even need to think he committed crimes. You just need to decide whether you approve of what he did, or not.
"You think Trump is innocent of everything."
Brett did not say that. Then you go on with an argument based on a counterfactual. It is a habit you have especially concerning Bellmore.
You do even worse by bringing up posts about the so-called "Biden crime family." Where did you see that in Bellmore's post.
'Brett did not say that'
You must be new here.
He's not. That's exactly why he's aware that you routinely put words in people's mouths.
You've been excusing Trump's actions and treating Biden's supposed guilt as a fait accompli since they started lying about it.
"You think Trump is innocent of everything."
Please stop insisting you can read others' minds. It is dull and utterly unpersuasive.
" Or else there will be blood. Other people’s blood, natch."
S_0, you're the one who has been predicting blood if Trump is on the ballot and loses.
I doubt that there will be blood whether Mr Trump is or is not on the ballot.
No, Brett and others keep warning of unrest and civil war if their leader is thwarted. Do you have them all blocked or something?
S_0, you’re the one who has been predicting blood if Trump is on the ballot and loses.
No, I'm not predicting that. I'm pointing out Brett has decided that would be a good thing.
Here is me saying I do *not* predict that:
"I don’t like the risk, and those trying to be cute about promising but not advocating for violence are immoral. But the hostage taking bullshit insisted based on assumptions about some pretty comfortable but angry people discarding go their comfort."
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/01/thursday-open-thread-174/?comments=true#comment-10426456
Quit misreading my comments, Don!
"I’m pointing out Brett has decided that would be a good thing."
Could you cite the comment you're interpreting that way? Because that really does not sound like the sort of thing I'd write.
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/01/25/thursday-open-thread-173/?comments=true#comment-10414464
What I do know, that you can’t accept, is that the Constitution isn’t indestructible, that it can be broken. You actually CAN push things too far, and once you have, there’s no going back.
Later in that thread you compare 'breaking the Constitution' to American Revolution 2.0. That's basically an endorsement.
In other threads you talk about the violence that will accompany keeping Trump off the ballot in similar approving terms.
Ah, I see, "basically".
So, if I say that it's possible to push things far enough that revolution is justified, I'm endorsing any revolution anybody anywhere might attempt.
So, if I say that if Trump actually wins, and Biden responds by having him jailed, and declares that he's going to be President anyway, revolution would be justified... Then I'm basically saying that, if Trump instead loses, revolution would be justified. No diff, right? In for one, in for both!
Don't be an ass.
Yes, I think that, "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
But, of course, I also think that, "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
So I don't think every slight, let alone imaginary ones, is enough.
Revolution is not lightly undertaken, but sufficiently bad abuses CAN justify it.
So I've just basically said that Trump losing 49 states would be enough to justify nuking Washington. At least in your imagination.
No, you specifically said Texas sounded like the Declaration of Independence, and when called on it said yeah, the Constitutional analysis doesn't matter in the face of legitimate revolution.
And you said the same thing about leaving Trump off the ballot - that would be a legitimate cause for revolution as well. And again, when called on it you invoked the American Revolution and cloaked yourself in it's righteousness.
There is no other way to paint it - you have created a permissive structure for partisan political violence, if you don't get your way. On the border, on 14As3, and why not other stuff as well?
It's not hard to see why you've stopped changing your spiel in response to others' replies to you; you've pulled a trigger where argumentation is not important - just having a thesis is enough.
Brett, your question appears to relate to shifts in the conventional wisdom as reflected in the musings of pundits on the center right and center left. When Colorado first struck Trump from the ballot, conventional opinion was largely driven by a combination of pragmatism, polictial & policy concerns, and "vibes" -- and boiled down to the conclusion that the Supreme Court would never do anything as "antidemocratic" as bar Trump from the ballot (or disqualify him from serving as President). With Supreme Court briefing mostly complete, conventional opinion is now much more attuned to the legal questions at issue -- and is coming to the conclusion that those challenging Trump have surprisingly strong arguments.
If there were a conventional-wisdom score-o-meter, the past four weeks or so would have seen the dial on "chance of Trump being disqualified" swing from "less than 10%" to something in the range of 25% to 45%.
To answer your question, the "new developments" that moved the needle were the filing of mutiple briefs challenging and defending Colodado's disqualification ruling; and the comparatively greater persuasiveness of the pro-dsiqualification briefs to pundits who did not already have their minds made up.
So what more convincing arguments were in the briefs that were not found in the Colorado Supreme Court ruling, or the Superior Court ruling that found for Trump on one hyper technical argument but found against him on everything else?
I'm not seeing a shift in 'conventional wisdom', like I said, I haven't seen anyone who wasn't convinced from the start that Trump was a monster say this. I'm open to your pointing out Republicans who aren't NeverTrumpers who say things are shifting in that direction.
The political betting market doesn’t seem to reflect any such shift. If anything, the recent trends are in the opposite direction.
So if you truly believe that this supposed recent significant shift in conventional wisdom is actually based on the merits, there’s a real opportunity for you to clean up!
Links here, since they put my original post in moderation limbo:
https://www.electionbettingodds.com/President2024.html#chart
Second: https://smarkets.com/event/43612049/politics/us/us-supreme-court/2024/03/05/00-00/us-supreme-court-to-vote-to-reinstate-trump-on-colorado-ballot
Third: https://polymarket.com/event/will-us-supreme-court-vote-to-reinstate-trump-on-colorados-2024-ballot?tid=1706996671032
I don’t find this very convincing.
First of all most cases that reach the supreme court on elections don’t revolve around “election law”. They revolve around constitutional issues like “does the constitution allow political gerrymandering?” “does the constitution allow racial gerrymandering?” “Does the state legislature have more power under the Independent legislature theory to organize elections, than in other areas of state law?”, “do voter id laws violate equal protection, or other 14th or 15th amendment provisions?”
Second the case is likely to revolve around the holdings of the Colorado Supreme Court, which only dealt with one section of the Colorado election code, but were based on a half dozen holdings that revolved around section 3 and federal law: ‘does section 3 cover the President?”, “is section 3 self executing?”, ” was jan. 6th an insurrection? “, ” did President Trump knowingly incite the Insurrection?”.
Its not surprising that Scholars specializing in 1st amendment law think it revolves around the first amendment (Abrams), scholars that have written extensively on the “Officers question” think that’s the main issue (Tillman, Blackman), Ted Cruz thinks its about section 5 and Congressional Authority, and Election law professors think its about Election law. And of course Trump haters think its all about Trump and "Trump Rules".
I don't read Prof. Adler's post to be saying its all about election law. I think he's saying that Trump's lawyers would have an argument more likely to win based on election law, rather than the 14A arguments. Oral argument at SCOTUS should be quite interesting. The question presented is pretty broad.
AWD,
I agree with you.
Adler did not make that case. He did not claim the Trump's lawyers made that case. He did ask what the implications might be if the justices read all the brief and came to that conclusion.
Well Muller says: “it seems increasingly likely, to me, that if the Supreme Court rules in Trump’s favor (and by if, the likelihood seems to be declining), it will be on an election law ground related to ballot access rather than a substantive Section 3 analysis.”
And I do have to admit, when I think about it a little more, that if their are clear election law grounds that is the likely basis of the decision, if for no other reason than the current court, especially the Chief Justice, always prefers to rule on statutory grounds first and resists reaching constitutional questions unless they are forced to, and he will probably be writing or assigning the decision.
But of course Muller also seems to be saying if they rule against Trump it will be on Constitutional grounds because there is no other justification to deny Trump ballot access, other than relying on Section 3.
Excluding a Republican or Democrat from the ballot based on alleged misconduct is a threat to democracy.
But keeping third-party or independent candidates off the ballot because they don't have the blessing of our corrupt duopoly: That’s essential to the functioning of our institutions!
You make a very good point and keeping minority party candidates of the general election ballot was my major objection to the CA jungle primary.
It's effectively the same as the top-two runoff system used in Georgia, Mississippi, and Louisiana, do you object to that?
Presidents are not elected by the public. They are elected by a college of electors appointed by each state legislature. I think Colorado’s plenary power to appoint electors in whatever manner it wants and to pledge them to vote for whatever candidate, and whatever kind of candidate it wishes, is more than enough to cover the case. The same plenary power that enables Colorado to instruct its electors to vote only for a candidate possessing a completely extra-constitutional state-created qualification - approval by a plurality of the state’s citizen - also fully entitles it to add additional instructions, such as no voting for a candidate who is an insurrectionist in Colorado’s view of what a insurrectionist is.
Most Supreme Court election law cases involve Congressional elections. The Constitution gives voters a right to elect members of Congress, obligating federal courts to ensure state legislatures do not interfere with this constitutional citizen right. That same constitution gives all decision power regarding the appointment of Presidential electors to state legislatures.
The same principles which require federal courts to ensure the rights granted citizens in congressional elections are protected require them to ensure state legislatures’ rights are protected in federal elections. Only the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses limit this right.
Trump’s best argument is Anderson v. Clebrezze. I think thos 5-4 decision was wrongly decided. But ignoring a bunch of blustering dicta about appointing presidential electors being a national matter, which it isn’t (or which is at most irrelevant), it at most stands for the proposition that when states choose to hold a popular election, the 14th Amendment requires them to give all candidstes they deem qualified an equal shot. It says nothing preventing a state from imposing an extra-constitutional qualification or elector instructuon in addition to limiting the set of candidates its electors may vote for to the one approved by a plurality of the state’s citizen-voters (which again, is a qualification appearing nowhere in the constitution and was added to the comstituional qualifications entirely by decision of the state legislatures involved.)
Courts must protect state legislatures rights in Presidential elections.
As I see it Calabrezze can easily be interpreted as an Equal Protection case. Just as the portion of the decision left to citizens must be distributed equally among them (Bush v. Gore), all candidates permitted to the voters by the legislature must be given an equal chance.
I completely disagree with the idea the First Amendment has anything to do with it. The First Amendment no more gives would-be presidents a right to a vote in a states’ popular ballot than it goves would-be federal judges a right to a confirmation vote in the Senate. State legislatures and the officials administering their laws have nearly as much right to decide whether or not a vote should be held on a presidential candidate as the Senate leadership has regarding whether a senate vote should be held on a federal judge.
The only difference is 14th Amendment due process and equal protection. If a legislature weeds candidates out by rules, then the rules have to be fair and give adequate notice.
But a legislature could weed candidates out itself, by its own direct action rather than through rilukes. As I see it, a system in which the legislature itself decides who will be on the ballot, picking perhaps two or three or five candidates itself, and then lets the voters decide among the candidates it picks, would be a completely constitutional procedure.
The President and the Senate could do the same for judges if they want and that would be constitutional too. It’s only custom that has a President nominating one candidate rather than several. The constitution permits many systems different from the one we are accustomed to.