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Federal Court Upholds Biological-Sex-Based Access Rule for School Restrooms
Federal courts continue to be split on this question.
From today's decision by Judge Jodi Dishman (W.D. Okla.) in Bridge v. Oklahoma State Dep't of Ed.:
"Physical differences between men and women … are enduring" and the "'two sexes are not fungible….'" United States v. Virginia (1996). In fact, "sex, like race and national origin, is an immutable characteristic …." Frontiero v. Richardson (1973) (plurality opinion). With these principles in mind, the Court tackles a question that has not yet been addressed by the Supreme Court of the United States or the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit: whether separating the use of male and female restrooms and changing areas in public schools based on a student's biological sex violates the Equal Protection Clause … or Title IX ….
{In Bostock v. Clayton County, Georgia, the Supreme Court held that an employer who fires an individual for being homosexual or transgender unconstitutionally discriminates against that person because of sex under Title VII. However, the Supreme Court also made clear that its opinion did "not purport to address bathrooms, locker rooms, or anything else of the kind."}
The court upheld Oklahoma's S.B. 615, which provides:
To ensure privacy and safety, each public school and public charter school that serves students in prekindergarten through twelfth grades in this state shall require every multiple occupancy restroom or changing area designated as follows:
- For the exclusive use of the male sex; or
- For the exclusive use of the female sex.
Each public school or public charter school in this state shall provide a reasonable accommodation to any individual who does not wish to comply with [these provisions]. A reasonable accommodation shall be access to a single occupancy restroom or changing room….
{"Sex" means the physical condition of being male or female based on genetics and physiology, as identified on the individual's original birth certificate.}
The court held that S.B. 615 doesn't violate the Equal Protection Clause:
[F]or a statute that classifies individuals based on sex to be constitutional, the classification must serve "'important governmental objectives'" and be "'substantially related to the achievement of those objectives'" [a test called "intermediate scrutiny" -EV]. {[T]he Court determines that intermediate scrutiny applies since S.B. 615 classifies individuals on the basis of sex, [so] it does not reach the issue of whether transgender status is a quasi-suspect classification.} To determine whether S.B. 615 survives intermediate scrutiny …, the Court must identify the State's reasons for enacting a sex-based classification. Then, the Court must ask whether the "reasons qualify as important governmental objectives and, if so, whether the gender-based means employed substantially serve those objectives."
The text of S.B. 615 makes its objective clear: to ensure students' privacy and safety from the opposite sex. Although Plaintiffs maintain that the Court must conduct fact finding to determine the validity of this objective, determining what is (and is not) an important governmental objective is a legal question.
Separating students based off biological sex (which both parties agree the statute does) so that they are able to use the restroom, change their clothes, and shower outside the presence of the opposite sex is an important governmental objective. "Understanding why is not difficult—school-age children 'are still developing, both emotionally and physically.'" And the Supreme Court has recognized the need for privacy between members of each sex in intimate settings. See United States v. Virginia (1996) ("Admitting women to VMI would undoubtedly require alterations necessary to afford members of each sex privacy from the other sex in living arrangements …."). It has also recognized the State's role in "maintaining … safety" "in a public school environment." Bd. of Educ. v. Earls (2002).
As Plaintiffs rightly state, "[a]ny law premised on generalizations about the way women are—or the way men are—will fail constitutional scrutiny because it serves no important governmental objective." However, S.B. 615 addresses much more than mere "generalizations" between males and females. Biological sex is distinct from gender generalizations, and "[u]se of a restroom designated for the opposite sex does not constitute a mere failure to conform to sex stereotypes."
Having established that Oklahoma has an important governmental interest in ensuring students are safe and have privacy from the opposite sex in restrooms, the Court turns to analyze whether S.B. 615 is substantially related to achieving that objective.
Here, the governmental interest is almost identical to the means used to protect the interest. Protecting students' safety and privacy interests in school restrooms and changing areas is undoubtedly closely related to the statute's mandate that all multiple occupancy restrooms or changing areas be for the exclusive use of either the male or female sex as determined by "genetics" and "physiology." The means by which the statute seeks to further that important governmental interest also make practical sense.
In addition to being an "unremarkable—and nearly universal—practice," separating restrooms based on biological sex establishes the clearest limiting principle regarding who can go in what restroom. Adams v. Sch. Bd. (11th Cir. 2022) (en banc). If the Court adopted Plaintiffs' position, any biological male could claim to be transgender and then be allowed to use the same restroom or changing area as girls. This is a major safety concern. The Court in no way suggests that Plaintiffs pose any safety risk to other students. It also does not cast any doubt on Plaintiffs' claims regarding the sincerity of how they identify, nor can it on 12(b)(6) review. However, if Plaintiffs' arguments were adopted, it would put school officials in the position of either having to conduct a subjective analysis of the sincerity of an individual's gender identity or merely take their word for it. Not to mention that if (biological) sex-based classifications such as S.B. 615 were deemed to be equal protection violations, no law recognizing the inherent differences between male and female would pass constitutional muster. This is an untenable position.
{In Grimm v. Gloucester Cnty. Sch. Bd. (4th Cir. 2020), the Fourth Circuit held that a restroom policy similar to the one here was "not substantially related to [the school board's] important interest in protecting students' privacy" because although students are entitled to privacy, allowing transgender students to use the restroom of their choice does not alter the amount of privacy students receive. ("Put another way, the record demonstrates that bodily privacy of cisgender boys using the boys restrooms did not increase when Grimm was banned from those restrooms. Therefore, the Board's policy was not substantially related to its purported goal."). But this ignores why laws such as S.B. 615 are being passed in the first place. As evidenced by its text, S.B. 615 seeks to ensure students' privacy in intimate settings from the opposite sex—not from other students in general.}
And the court held that S.B. 615 doesn't violate the federal Title IX statutory provisions:
Title IX requires that "[n]o person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance…." However, "nothing contained [in Title IX] shall be construed to prohibit any educational institution receiving funds under this Act, from maintaining separate living facilities for the different sexes." "A recipient may provide separate toilet, locker room, and shower facilities on the basis of sex, but such facilities provided for students of one sex shall be comparable to such facilities provided for students of the other sex." …
So, since S.B. 615 separates students and the restrooms they are allowed to use based on biological sex, Plaintiffs can only prevail if "sex" under Title IX means the sex with which an individual identifies (i.e., their gender identity), not their biological sex. Accordingly, the Court must necessarily interpret what the word "sex" means in the context of Title IX.
To begin, the Court looks to ordinary public meaning of the word "sex" at the time Title IX was enacted in 1972. At that time, "virtually every dictionary definition of 'sex' referred to the physiological distinctions between males and females—particularly with respect to their reproductive functions." … [A]t the time Title IX was enacted, "sex" was defined by biology and reproductive functions.
Plaintiffs argue that if the Court focuses exclusively on the term "sex", then it will forget that "'[t]he question isn't just what 'sex' mean[s], but what [a statute barring sex discrimination] says about it.'" However, given the text of Title IX, which is different than that of Title VII [the statute considered in Bostock], the definition of "sex" is determinative. Title IX explicitly allows schools to "maintain[] separate living facilities" and "separate toilet, locker room, and shower facilities" for the "different sexes." Thus, if the term "different sexes" is referring to different biological sex, then Oklahoma's law is perfectly in sync with Title IX.
{Plaintiffs repeatedly argue that the "meaning of 'biological sex' is a politicized one, not one grounded in science." See Grimm (stating that the school board "rel[ied] on its own discriminatory notions of what 'sex' mean[t]" because it defined "sex" by referring to the anatomical and physiological differences between males and females); Whitaker by Whitaker v. Kenosha Unified Sch. Dist. No. 1 Bd. of Educ. (7th Cir. 2017) (concluding that biological sex is merely a "sex-based stereotype[]"). However, for the reasons stated previously and absent binding precedent to the contrary, the Court rejects the view that gender identity is synonymous with biological sex or that biological sex is a stereotype.}
At the time Title IX was enacted, the ordinary public meaning of "sex" was understood to mean the biological, anatomical, and reproductive differences between male and female. It is up to Congress to change that meaning, not this Court.
Defendants are represented by Zach West, Audrey Weaver, Kyle Peppler, and William Flanagan of the Oklahoma Attorney General's office.
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As long as gay dudes get to continue peepin’ on dudes in the locker room Republicans are happy…keep loading those spank tanks!!!
You are accusing gay people of being groomers and predators?
I sense he was advancing an observation about Republican proclivities . . . at a right-wing blog that regularly exhibits a telling trans fetish.
You're welcome.
well, some gay people, like Jeff Dahmer for example
Separate and apart from the legal merits -- as to which courts have differed -- why is this such an important issue to the pecker checkers? Just close and lock the door of the stall, use the facilities for the purpose intended, wash hands, and leave.
I’m gen x and at my college in the 1990s the gym still had a bathroom without stalls…and I’m not talking about urinals. The trend is towards more privacy and so the solution is simple—bathrooms with so much privacy that it doesn’t matter who is in the stall next to you. Plus, fathers are much more involved in their daughters’ lives than when we were building public bathrooms without stalls and so instead of a family bathroom here and there just make all the bathrooms accessible to a father with a little daughter.
From the ruling.
Separating students based off biological sex (which both parties agree the statute does) so that they are able to use the restroom, change their clothes, and shower outside the presence of the opposite sex is an important governmental objective.
That's a helluva restroom!
Huh? Every gym has one.
You mean locker rooms?
Despite the post title, the case is about "Multiple occupancy restroom or changing area(s)" which are defined as "may include but is not limited to a school restroom, locker room, changing room, or shower room".
Doesn’t seem narrowly tailored, but locker rooms do seem a place where there is some policy discretion.
Even if I personally think accommodations should be looked into more, reasonable courts can differ on the subject (until SCOTUS weighs in)
I was going to make a "Reverend" Sandusky remark about how you have to use the communal outhouse down in the "holler" but I'll pass.
Related to my take, which is that shower curtains are much cheaper than lawyers.
I love the classic gaslight of the leftoid saying some issue is not a big deal while they move heaven and earth to try to move it in their preferred direction.
Hating on transgendered folks became more commonplace as bashing same sex couples became less socially acceptable. (I suspect that acceptance of gays and lesbians progressed because more people realized that gay-bashing is painful to someone dear to them.)
Then-Senator Lyndon Johnson explained how ugly and primal the need to look down on someone else is. As Bill Moyers wrote:
WHILE Lyndon Baines Johnson was a man of time and place, he felt the bitter paradox of both. I was a young man on his staff in 1960 when he gave me a vivid account of that southern schizophrenia he understood and feared. We were in Tennessee. During the motorcade, he spotted some ugly racial epithets scrawled on signs. Late that night in the hotel, when the local dignitaries had finished the last bottles of bourbon and branch water and departed, he started talking about those signs. “I’ll tell you what’s at the bottom of it,” he said. “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1988/11/13/what-a-real-president-was-like/d483c1be-d0da-43b7-bde6-04e10106ff6c/ Haters gotta hate.
Bill Moyers makes up more shit that LBJ never said, he's turned him into friggin Yogi Berra, who never said most of the things he never said.
Didn't he work for CBS the constant bullshit network?
LBJ was, of course, correct.
Was he correct when he said this?
"I'll have them niggers voting Democratic for two hundred years."
so far, but it's only been 60 years
It's not certain he actually said that, but it would not have been out of character for Johnson, who was racist and also occasionally cruel to beagles.
While crudely expressed, it does seem empirically correct (so far), although it persists more from Republicans being racists than the affiliation of the President who signed civil rights legislation in the early 1960s.
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This guy understands the Volokh Conspiracy.
It's getting hard out here for a right-wing simp!
I do not 'HATE' trans individuals. I waver between ambivalence to pity.
Unless I am personally impacted, I really don't give a dam. Just to point out, the trans individuals are personally intitled to their delusion. I will NOT be forced to participate in that delusion.
Get it?
Got it.
Good.
You are totally entitled to be a raging asshole. With hemorrhoids.
He's an asshole if he disagrees with someone about their sex?
Not if he keeps it to himself. But he just said that that's absolutely "NOT" a courtesy he's willing to extend. Only a hopeless asshole with a hemorrhoid bigger than his dick would feel the need to be that disrespectful for no reason.
Why should he keep his opinions to himself? You don't keep yours to yourself.
Yeah, that's why I'm an asshole too. We already went over this.
Huh? That's not why you're an asshole.
Couldn't you just as easily say the same to the transgender people?
"Just close and lock the door of the stall, use the facilities for the purpose intended, wash hands, and leave."
I'm not quite sure that this works both ways.
1. Female students in the girls locker room may be discombobulated by the appearance in their midst of 6 foot 2, bestubbled "Joanie", who last year was called Artie, and used the other locker room. The argument that they should just grow a pair, figuratively, and stop being so easily panicked / upset / etc is that "Joanie" is not going to whip "her" appendage out in front of them, but is going to retreat into a stall. Nothing scary is going to be exposed. And likewise if the gals are planning any deshabille-ity of their own, they shouldn't be doing it out in the open in front of the mirror, they should do it in a stall too. Where the sound of "Joannie" singing Ol Man River in "her" deep bass should not frighten them. If they've grown a pair, that is.
2. Whereas if "Joannie" is required to go into the boys locker room, not the girls, "her" hurt and humilation is not salved by the fact that "she" can do "her" stuff in a stall. For it is the requirement to go into the guys rest room / locker room rather than the gals that is, ipso facto, hurtful and humiliating, for it shouts "Joannie is a guy !"
which "Joannie" is going to considerable pains to deny, and which gives her psychological bruises every time it is suggested.
There may be some stalls in both cases, but the injury suffered is different.
20 years ago, NYU Medical school had unisex restrooms and showers in it dorm facilities. They work. Now it is true that my daughter used to use the shower at 4 am, but still it does work.
There will come a day when a US court rules that the sky is green, and it is illegal to refer to the sky as being blue.
Don’t you believe Dred Scott is the worst decision in history while you lament the South losing the Civil War??
One thing, though. "Biological sex" is less precise than it appears, and not really up to legal standards of precision.
Brains are biological.
The picture is incomplete but there is evidence pointing to trans people having brain structures that match their self-report. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stria_terminalis#Sexual_dimorphism
All these people are XY, but with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. There is no doubt in my mind which facilities they should be allowed to use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#/media/File:Women_with_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome.jpg
And I will never forget a town hall meeting about this subject where someone asked for a show of hands from the woman there of how many had ducked into the men's room in an emergency. I expected several. It was either everybody or so close to everybody I couldn't see exceptions.
Bwahahahahahaha!
Hilarious!
I mean, seriously, have you ever actually looked at actual legal standards of precision, in anything, ever?
That sentence there is in the same category as the sentence "Surgeons' scalpels aren't really as sharp as reputed, and are actually quite dull compared to basketballs." It has a veneer of plausibility of the "well, actually" class of statements you can find all over the place on the Internet right up until you reach the end, when it's suddenly revealed the writer is an inhabitant of Cloud-Cuckoo Land.
There are a scant few people who have ambiguous biological sex. But that's not the same thing as being trans. At all.
That point is less important, from the conservative perspective, than the bigotry and perceived partisan advantage to be arranged by lathering a bunch of rubes..
People falsely claiming to be transgender in order to enter an opposite gender facility is also extremely rare. Yet that seems to be one of the main narratives used against transgender people.
At a glance, I don't mind this rule as it ensures transgender students will get access to facilities, just not the same facilities as students born to that gender. And in general, I don't think transgender folks particularly enjoy using multi-person change room facilities.
Every transgender person is falsely pretending to be the opposite sex.
You can't reason with superstition, bigotry, or belligerent ignorance. (Transphobia -- the type exhibited regularly by the Volokh Conspiracy and its conservative fans -- seems rooted in all three.) It is pointless, perhaps even counterproductive, to try.
The proper course is to beat the bigots at the marketplace of ideas and cause them to be disrespected and uninfluential in modern, improving America.
This latest batch seems nothing special. It reminds me of the gay-bashers of a few decades ago. Superstitious, bigoted, belligerently ignorant, doomed in the modern American culture war.
What do you mean by “born to that gender” ?
Are transgender folk not born to the gender they present later on ?
Do they develop a trans gender after birth ? If so is this the result of environmental influences or what ?
One thing, though. “Biological sex” is less precise than it appears, and not really up to legal standards of precision.
Nonsense. Sex is just about the clearest category that there is in biology. It is defined by gamete type – thus any anisogamous organism has the sex of the gamete(s) that its phenotype is organized to produce.
In humans the current estimate is that only about 1 in 100,000 people lack sexually identifiable gonads (the gamete producing organs.) But even then there is no ambiguity about the sex of these unfortunates. They don’t have one.
The kerfuffle about sexual ambiguity , and lack of precision, is really about the fact that secondary sexual characteristics – ie other parts (besides the gonads) which are to some extent sexually differentiated – can have a degree of variability and overlap between the sexes. Thus secondary (human) male characteristics, such as penises, skeletal features esp pelvis, relative hairyness, size of voice box, height, muscularity, tendency to go bald, and – read it Larry Summers and weep – sexual differentiation in the brain – are simply correlated to a greater or lesser extent with sex (ie the sex of the gonads and thus the sex of the gametes.)
So folk suffering from androgen insensitivity (partial or complete) are unambiguiously male, since they have testes not ovaries. But if they have CAIS their external phenotype looks like a female.
As for brains, there is very little good evidence that trans people have brain structures which match their self report, since the studies claiming that invariably fail to deal with confounding factors like anxiety and depression – ie they may show nothing more than that trans folk are, on average, anxious and depressed, Quelle surprise. Which is not to say that good evidence on brain correspondences with what is more typical in the other sex will not be found, we’ll see. But even if it is found that will not change the story on sex, which is defined by gametes and gonads, not by brains. It will be no more surprising than that some women go bald.
As for rest rooms, of course, the concerns of rest room users who would like to keep public, and especially public school, rest rooms segregated by sex are not strictly concerns about the essential gonadal distinction of the sexes, but about the external phenotype. Thus I expect that most women would be not at all alarmed by the appearance of someone with CAIS in the female restroom. But they would be alarmed by the appearance of someone with ovaries and a penis. (I have never heard of such a DSD btw.)
However the correlation between actual biological sex (gonads and gametes) and external phenotype is very strong (because evolution is good at these things) so I assume that that’s good enough for government work.
Finally some common sense from a federal court.
My thought exactly, John. We live in an age when we have to breathe a sigh of relief when common sense prevails.
If there is anything that conservatives in general and the Volokh Conspiracy in particular can't abide, it's modern America.
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This reasoning strikes me as weak. Experience in schools which permit trans kids to use the restroom that matches their gender identity suggests fakers almost never occur, and for good reason. A faker would have to live as an out trans person in order to convince people they were trans. You don't see people go to such extremes just to get into the other sex's restroom.
"almost never"
Right, "almost never." To me, that means the law - as applied to trans kids - does not further the important government interest of safety by means that are substantially related to that interest. That is, as applied to trans kids, the law fails intermediate scrutiny (the judge held intermediate scrutiny applied).
So this isn't safe?
"Each public school or public charter school in this state shall provide a reasonable accommodation to any individual who does not wish to comply with [these provisions]. A reasonable accommodation shall be access to a single occupancy restroom or changing room"
No mean girls, no bullying boys to worry about.
The legal question is whether the accommodation substantially furthers safety relative to permitting trans kids to use the restroom that matches their gender identity. I don't think so.
And while I agree with Queen almathea that there are areas, such as sports, where an important government interest is substantially furthered by not treating trans kids based on gender identity, using a restroom where you don't expose your genitals isn't one of them.
Safety is not the only government interest :
Separating students based off biological sex (which both parties agree the statute does) so that they are able to use the restroom, change their clothes, and shower outside the presence of the opposite sex is an important governmental objective.
"Understanding why is not difficult—school-age children 'are still developing, both emotionally and physically.'" And the Supreme Court has recognized the need for privacy between members of each sex in intimate settings. See United States v. Virginia (1996) ("Admitting women to VMI would undoubtedly require alterations necessary to afford members of each sex privacy from the other sex in living arrangements …."). It has also recognized the State's role in "maintaining … safety" "in a public school environment."
A quick hypo.
Suppose we're in (state) college now - not an environment with children.
There's a male student who spends a lot of time eyeing up the female students. No words, no grunts, no leers, no licking of lips, just scanning the merchandise. Elevator eyes. But the eyes do linger on particular bits. All the time. And obviously.
But in the public sphere, not in dorms or rest rooms. And of course the young ladies he's mentally stripping are fully clothed. So we're two steps removed from the privacy interest concerns of school age girls in ther changing rooms - no kids, no unclothing.
Can the college discipline him for "sexual harassment" ?
I mention this because I happened to be travelling on a subway outside the US a few weeks back, and spotted a sign saying that if you feel that someone is staring at you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, that's illegal sexual harassment and you should report it to [security phone number.] So in [Ruritania] our male student would not just be facing college discipline, but a trip to the criminal courts.
I think the looks, in and of themselves, should not be legally construed as harassment. (Not that those behaviors of the looker aren't wrong or effectively harassing. It's just that I'm looking for strictly constructed laws that aren't easily abused.) If a person is uncomfortable with those looks, that person should ignore them, look away or move away. If the "looker" attempts to physically follow or track along with the person, that could constitute harassment.
No protection for you against eye movements you don't like. This win goes to the pervs.
Why do you demean “pervs” ? Seriously.
The behavior being questioned is not perverted, only boorish. Moreover, the non-slur is pervert not perv.
I think the privacy interest works to meet intermediate scrutiny when kids would be exposing their bodies to members of the opposite sex. However, forbidding trans kids from using enclosed stalls in the restrooms that match their gender identity does not substantially further that interest. Showers are totally different (no way not to expose yourself) and changing areas might be somewhere in between (perhaps trans kids use changing areas in the restroom that matches their gender identity, but where they cannot see others changing).
Well there was the case in Virginia where a trans identifying student raped two schoolgirls at two different schools in girls restrooms.
But what's just two rapes? I mean except to the girls and their families.
A faker would have to live as an out trans person in order to convince people they were trans.
Only if "school officials were willing, able and legally entitled to "conduct a subjective analysis of the sincerity of an individual’s gender identity."
I think it would be very easy to weed out the fakers.
It's not even easy to come up with criteria to label someone a faker. Under the prevailing definitions, someone's gender identity is whatever they say it is.
Again, if they aren't faking they will be living their entire life out of the closet as their gender identity. Fakers aren't going to do that.
Why do you say that? One can identify as male, female, gender fluid (where someone's gender identity fluctuates day-to-day or even hour to hour), non-binary, and a whole bunch of other things.
Do you really think they're going to punish a kid because he was in the girl's locker room yesterday but he's changing the oil in his truck today?
Girls change oil in trucks.
But anyways, yes. “I was a girl while I was in the girl’s bathroom” is something that only someone as completely moronic as yourself would fall for.
Why? Isn't that exactly what gender fluid people say?
As Josh was pointing out to you, they do more than just say stuff.
Josh claimed that "if they aren’t faking they will be living their entire life out of the closet as their gender identity."
But that's clearly not true with respect to gender fluid or non-binary people.
Why not?
The whole reason people feel that they need to identify as gender fluid or non-binary is because they want to live their lives in clearly non-conforming ways.
Let me know when there's a student who says "I'm gender-fluid in that I'm genetically male and identify as male in every way except that I'm female when it comes to needing to use the bathroom" and then your point would be at least valid. I'm still pretty comfortable calling bullshit on that kid though.
How would you distinguish a "faker" from someone who is gender-fluid or non-binary?
I just told you.
No you didn't.
Try engaging your higher brain functions and read it again.
Sigh. So if he doesn't "I’m genetically male and identify as male in every way except..." then he's gender fluid? I'm not sure you system is that reliable, chief.
And if somebody says "I don't identify as either a man or a woman" but he appears male in every respect except that he occasionally uses the girls room?
Faker?
The plaintiffs are not asking to switch bathrooms every day. They are asking to use the one restroom that corresponds to their non-changing gender identity. A faker is not going to live his entire life as a girl in order to get into the girl's restroom.
If a gender-fluid person requests to change bathrooms every day, we can deal with that case separately at that time.
You made the claim that "it would be very easy to weed out the fakers".
How do you distinguish a faker from someone who is gender fluid? Or non-binary? I assume you're not claiming that gender fluid and non-binary people are fakers?
Many people aren't sure how they feel about there own gender identity. How is it going to be easy to determine other people's gender identity?
FFS. Repeating myself in record time: the plaintiffs aren't gender-fluid or non-binary. We can deal with gender-fluid and non-binary plaintiffs if they ever sue.
For the law as applied to these plaintiffs, it's easy to spot a faker.
I'm not sure that even makes sense. For the law as applied to these plaintiffs, how would you distinguish between a faker and someone who is gender fluid?
HFS. You don't have to distinguish between fakers and the gender fluid for the plaintiffs to win. If the plaintiffs win, people with non-fluid, non-binary gender identities will use the bathroom that matches their gender identity. So, all the schools need to do is distinguish between the fakers and a trans person with a non-fluid, non-binary gender identity.
"So, all the schools need to do is distinguish between the fakers and a trans person with a non-fluid, non-binary gender identity."
OK, so what's a school to do if a gender fluid person who's not faking uses one restroom one day and another one another day?
Or are we just lumping him in with the fakers?
We don't have to speculate to resolve this case. That's how the law works.
"The ERA will mandate shared bathrooms!"
"You stupid hicks, NO IT WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON'T!!!!!!!"
Dear Lord, please send an asteroid to smear this worthless planet..."
Maybe just a small meteorite aimed at you.
My college dorm in the late 1970s was coed, and had coed bathrooms. Toilets and showers were situated in private stalls.
You never saw men and women behave so modestly, so respectfully of others, as they did in that coed bathroom.
Just to share a real life data point.
My dorm was coed, too, in 1977. What they meant by that, though, was that two of the floors were all women. Not that we shared bathrooms.
You better believe the guys treated the girls nice, it was an engineering school in the 70's, something like 90% of the enrollment was men. Those girls had a lot of negotiating power, only nice guys had even the slightest chance of a date.
NYU Medical was that way also with the same behavior of the med students as you noted.
Has anyone explored the first amendment implications of segregating restrooms/showers/living facilities, etc.?
Presumably you have a first amendment right to identify as a particular gender without it determining where you have to pee, shower, live, etc.?
I mean, it’s one thing to be denied the restroom of your choice because of your biological sex, it’s another to be denied the restroom of your choice because you don’t feel feminine enough.
First Amendment? What speech is implicated?
One's gender identity/expression.
Is there any dispute that you have a first amendment right to identify as a man or a woman?
OK, your gender expression is speech and your declaration of your gender identity is speech. How is that relevant to this case?
It's relevant to the extent that this case poses dividing restrooms by gender identity as an alternative to dividing them by sex. If the argument that you can't divide them by sex wins, you might not have a constructional alternative.
Constructional alternative?
*constitutional alternative.
Why wouldn't dividing by gender identity be permissible (again, while declaring one's gender identity is speech, one's gender identity itself is not speech)?
For the same reason it's not permissible to punish someone for holding a negative opinion about the president. The same distinction applies: Declaring that you hold a negative opinion about the president is speech, holding a negative opinion about the president isn't.
Punishing someone for holding a negative opinion about the president punishes speech. You are stuck on not accepting gender identity as a trait (holding an opinion about the president is not a trait).
It depends on what you mean by "identify." You have the right to say "I identify as a woman." But you might be lying.
And since freedom of expression implies freedom of thought, you have a right to identify as a man or a woman.
So presumably they couldn't punish you for using the women's room just because you don't identify as a woman.
So are you guys trying to get rid of separate facilities altogether?
Is this some new version of the "homosexuality is a choice" canard? It didn't work that time and it won't work this time.
No. I'm saying that you have a first amendment right to identify as a man, so a restroom policy that punished you for entering if you identify as a man would violate the first amendment.
You have a first amendment right to say you identify as a man. But you have to actually identify as a man for the restroom policy to apply. Just saying it isn’t enough.
You quoted a definition of “gender identity” above but it doesn’t seem like you get it. Let’s take you for example. If you said “I identify as a woman,” it doesn’t mean you identify as a woman, any more than saying “I’m gay” makes you gay.
Talk about aggressive ignorance! You and Life of Brian should have a discreet meet.
"But you have to actually identify as a man for the restroom policy to apply."
How do I determine if I actually identify as a man? Are there strict enough criteria for an identification to be falsifiable, or is my gender identity an unfalsifiable opinion? I would say the latter.
I would say the latter.
That is why you fail.
"Just saying it isn’t enough."
Here I agree with you.
Declaring your gender identity is speech, but your gender identity itself is not speech.
Sure, it's more like thought or a state of feeling.
But freedom of speech implies freedom of thought as well. Would any body claim that there's not a first amendment right to hold a negative opinion of the president?
Your opinion of the president is not a trait. Gender identity is.
You miss the point of the ruling. It was based on biological sex, not self-identification. So 1st Amendment issues are irrelevant.
I feel like a lot of people are forgetting that exclusively women's restrooms were an important achievement of the early feminist movement.
IIRC, it was more that there were exclusively men’s restrooms at public events, and nothing at all for women.
The early feminist success was getting society to recognize women pee.
That too!
Do any of you rednecks really want Chastity Bono lumbering into the restrooms of your ladies?
This is so obviously what it comes down to. I feel like what we really need (if it weren't so clearly sex discrimination) is a Delicate Prudish Straight XX Pretty Ladies Room with a bouncer, and then an Everybody Else Room and everyone would be happy.
Wow, a post that's bigoted against both rural people and trans people at the same time.
Being rural is a choice.
A lousy choice.
Not for schoolchildren it isn't.
For some.
If that's what all these grievances are fundamentally about, I deeply sympathize. That sounds like a problem worth fixing.
Very poor analysis. Assumes trans students don't have the same privacy rights against the opposite gender, and in a Republicans-Greatest-Hits, assumes transmen don't exist, because every one of them will flip their shit when people visually indistinguishably from biological men walk into the women's restroom. Any "privacy right" they feel women entitled to, they feel the same violation from transmen, *because they can rarely tell* without a genital inspection.
Yet another decision based on "they're men in dresses and they don't have equal rights" reasoning.' How can they have equal rights when we can't racially segregate because black people's interests cancel interests in excluding them? Clearly the assertion is trans people lack full rights as protected minorities.
They also take SCOTUS' "this decision doesn't directly address this" to mean "feel free to throw the entire line of reasoning behind this decision out the window and make up your own that flatly contradicts it".
If SCOTUS *specifically* says that it's not addressing a particular issue in a ruling, I think lower courts can take that to heart and not act like the ruling did the thing SCOTUS said it didn't do.
Your language is so unclear I can't even tell what you are trying to say.
Trans people already have the same rights everyone else has. What they are demanding are special privileges - the privilege to use the showers/locker rooms they choose, and to play on the sports teams they choose. The rest of us are constrained to do these things aligned with our reproductive biology. That's unequal treatment, which is the opposite of equal rights.
Do you mean that Kazinski is making shit up?
In true Claude Rains fashion, I am shocked! Shocked!
Queeny wayyyyyyyyyy too interested in young boys.
I don’t understand how you can possibly argue that a person is or isn’t transgender. Under the prevailing theory, such a determination can only be made by said person (read: “self identification”). And it doesn’t make a difference what that person’s identity was yesterday; gender is a “fluid” attribute.
Do I have to register in advance as a transgender person in order to exercise my transgender rights? Do I have to be subjected to your wardrobe-based analysis in order to determine my identity?
So he was gender fluid not trans. And the days he felt like wearing women's clothes he used the girls restrooms.
Seems like he was identifying as female those days.
You disapprove of shoehorning everyone into male or female, but you seem to be shoehorning everyone into trans/not trans. That hardly seems like its more supportable.
Queeny still scarred when she found out her Mammy had a cock.
"But let’s also acknowledge that many of the folks making a fuss about the latter are not acting in anything remotely like good faith-these are folks who ridicule Title IX provisions re sports (“if the girls can sell tickets then they can get the same funds”), attack measures to combat sexual violence against women and want to force 10 year old Indiana girls to give birth to their rapist’s children."
You seem to have trouble distinguishing having bad faith from disagreeing with you.
Prof. Volokh will provide a pass to you, Mr. Drackman, with respect to your obvious flouting of Prof. Volokh's self-proclaiming civility standards, and refrain from censoring you because your strong conservative credentials have earned exemption from this blog's claimed censorship standards.
Carry on, clingers.
thanks "Coach"! but I already took a shower
Being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole counts as bad faith to the Queen and I.
You are quite the retard!
It's a medical diagnosis. You either are or aren't transgender in much the same way that you either are or aren't an albino.
I get that you guys are acting in bad faith. But where’s the bad faith in Queen’s examples?
I can't speak for the Queen, but I'm being an asshole for the sake of making the world a better place for the children. It pains me greatly but it's a sacrifice I must endure.
Honestly: the only part of this I understand is the part where you call me a retard.
“It’s a medical diagnosis.”
This is just ignorant. Gender dysphoria might be a medical diagnosis, but being transgender is a matter of self-identification.
Not just ignorant, but aggressively ignorant.
"It’s a medical diagnosis. "
You are plan wrong. A psych diagnosis maybe but much different to a diagnosis of being albino. Try telling the truth with your snipes.
Huh. All I have to do to make the world a better place for the children is spout facts and common sense.
When do you plan to start?
On one hand I agree that the terms keep changing and so I understand how you might be confused. On the other hand, you’re just regurgitating your own bullshit.
Transgender diagnosis is not made if the individual has a concurrent physical intersex condition (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia). To make the diagnosis, there must be evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
The older term “transsexual” is still the term primarily used in medicine, but “transgender” is largely interchangeable with it… and definitely requires a diagnosis. You can’t just pronounce yourself transgender. Idiot. Even the likes of Kazinski understand that much. (Look down.)
You disapprove of shoehorning everyone into male or female, but you seem to be shoehorning everyone into trans/not trans. That hardly seems like its more supportable.
Why not? The point is not that we just have to throw up our hands and declare humans incapable of comprehending gender. In fact, it's the opposite. There's lots of evidence that transgenderism is a real thing. The reason that we don't want to shoehorn everyone into male or female (based on genetics) is that we have objective evidence that that's not how it works. It's not some sort of hippie philosophical thing, as much as Sean Hannity may enjoy promulgating that strawman.
Like, we have no problem shoehorning everyone into left-handed or right-handed, because that's objectively how it seems to work. It's all about objective medicine, not culture war BS.
My own bullshit? Dude, it’s right there in the opinion:
“Bridge is a transgender boy. This means Bridge identifies as male, but that Bridge’s biological sex, based on anatomy and genetics, is female.”
Nothing about a diagnosis, or distress, or any of that stuff. I don’t know what BS you’re spouting, but it has nothing to do with this case, and it’s not the prevailing definition of transgender.
It's built into the term "transgender." What are you, a brainstem?
"Kazinski is an albino. This means he doesn't have skin pigment."
You:
Nothing about a diagnosis, or melanin, or any of that stuff, which has nothing to do with this case. I could stay out of the sun for a few days and become an albino according to the prevailing definition.
That is the bullshit of which I speak.
That checks out.
No it's not.
Transgender: noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s sex assigned at birth
Gender Identity: a person's inner sense of being male, female, or another gender...
Again, nothing about a diagnosis, or distress, or any of that stuff. Stop being aggressively ignorant.
albino: an organism exhibiting deficient pigmentation
You are just a silly person, really. Dictionaries describe conditions. You need to look to medical references for the diagnostic guidance.
Again, what diagnosis? You still haven't presented any evidence that you need a diagnosis to be transgender. You have provided an example where the term is used to indicate eligibility for certain medical interventions, but that has nothing to do with how the term is used in a non-medical context.
that has nothing to do with how the term is used in a non-medical context
You've just managed to confuse yourself that "transgender" has some non-medical culture-war meaning. Maybe it does, in some right-wing grievance-wallowing media bubbles. Do yourself a favor and Pop That Bubble!
In your view, does the term "come out as transgender" refer to a revelation that one has had a medical diagnosis?
Talk about a silly person.
I mean, yeah. There is such a thing as a self-diagnosis. I tell my boss I've got a cold and am staying home all the time. That doesn't mean colds are totally subjective and I "have a First Amendment right to identify as having a cold" whether or not I actually do. I could get the diagnosis confirmed by a doctor if I wanted. And it's possible the doctor would say, "No, actually, you don't have a cold. It's allergies."
"Coming out as transgender" is the same.
You think that if you tell a doctor that your inner sense of being male, female, or something else doesn't align with what you were assigned at birth, he's going to tell you that you're wrong?
I don't think the doctor's going to argue with your symptoms, but yeah, they'll say it isn't transgenderism. It happens all the time. Just like my I-thought-it-was-a-cold-but-really-it's-allergies example. The doctor's not going to tell me I'm wrong that I'm congested, but he might tell me I'm wrong about why.
What I just described is the definition of transgenderism.
If you don't like the dictionary, you can look at the APA glossary, which defines it the same way.
It defines gender dysphoria as "Discomfort or distress related to an incongruence between an individual's gender identity and the gender assigned at birth." which is what I think you were getting at when you claimed that transgenderism was a medical diagnosis.
But no doctor is going to tell you that you that your internal sense of being male, female, or something else is incorrect.
The fact that it appears in an APA glossary should tell you everything you need to know.
And yes, I gave you an example earlier of where the doctor might tell you you're wrong: you might not be transgender and instead have androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia. But more often, the conversation goes something like "Doctor, I think I (or my son) might be transgender." "Nope, what you're describing is just everyday gender-bending."
You seem to be giving "transgender" an agenda-related meaning that lets you imagine a parade of horribles. Who am I to disabuse you of your grievance fantasies? Have fun freaking yourself out about all the bathroom fakers running around your mind.
Do antisocial, alienated right-wing losers holed up in off-the-grid hermit shacks -- seething against modernity, tolerance, reason, science, inclusiveness, and all of this damned progress -- tend to be unreliable sources?
What's your thought on the frequency with which this blog focuses on trans issues?
Ok phych diagnosis, if you think that's an important distinction for some reason. (For the point I was making, it's not.)