The Volokh Conspiracy
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Are Hispanics Following the Path of the Irish?
Economic policy commentator Noah Smith compiles evidence that the today's Hispanics are following a similar path to that of Irish-Americans in earlier eras of American history.

Hispanics are by far the largest American immigrant group of the last several decades, and also the focus of the most extensive nativist concerns. Immigration restrictionists contend that Hispanic immigrants increase crime, undermine American political institutions, and cannot or will not assimilate. In a recent post, prominent economic policy commentator Noah Smith compiles evidence that these complaints are largely misplaced, and that Hispanics are in fact following a trajectory similar to that of Irish-Americans in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries:
[T]he best historical analogy for Hispanic immigration to the U.S. is the great Irish immigration of the 1800s. The usual analogy we draw is to the Italians, but I think the Irish make a better model. First of all, Irish immigration, like immigration from Mexico and Central America — but unlike immigration from Italy — was very drawn-out over a long period of time….
Like Hispanics, Irish migrants were mostly working-class folks who came for mainly economic reasons — pressures from poverty back in Ireland, plus the great dream of making it in America. And like Hispanics, they provoked a sustained and ferocious pushback from nativists….
The cartoon at the top of this post is from 1871 [note: I have reproduced the same cartoon at the start of this post], and features a huge number of negative stereotypes — the Irish as terrorists, as drunkards, as criminals, as seeking to dominate American culture….
You can see these anxieties paralleled in modern conservative worries about Hispanic immigration. Conservatives worry that terrorists are coming up through the southern border, that traditional American culture will be destroyed by immigrant culture, or even that the U.S. will have a civil war along racial lines.
Economic concerns are also very similar…. Worries that poor Irish immigrants would swamp local welfare systems — similar to worries about Hispanics overloading the welfare state in the 1990s and beyond — resulted in a large number of restrictive anti-immigration measures at the state level…..
Today's fears of supposedly violent and unassimilable Hispanics are remarkably similar to the nineteenth century stereotype of brutish, un-American Irishmen.
In the rest of the article, Smith compiles evidence that the concerns about Hispanics are largely false: they are in fact rapidly assimilating, quickly increasing their wealth and income, and have significantly lower crime rates than native-born Americans (a point that applies even to undocumented immigrants). Most of this evidence is well-known to students of immigration policy. But Smith does a valuable service in compiling it in one relatively short and easily accessible piece.
I have previously written about how once-widespread hostility towards Irish-Americans gradually faded away to the point where the difference between the Irish and other white Americans no longer has much political or social significance. For example, most Americans barely even notice that Joe Biden is only the second Irish Catholic president, and hardly anyone worries that he's trying to advance Irish interests at the expense of WASPs, or that he's following the dictates of the Vatican. As Smith explains, the distinction between whites and Hispanics may well be gradually moving in the same direction.
I would, however, note a few relevant caveats to Smith's thesis. First, it is not entirely true that Irish and Hispanic immigrants "were mostly working-class folks who came for mainly economic reasons." In reality, many Hispanic immigrants were and are refugees from oppressive socialist regimes in Cuba, Nicaragua, and (most recently) Venezuela. Some others have fled repression at the hands of right-wing dictatorships. For their part, the many Irish migrants were fleeing not just poverty, but also repression at the hands of the British. This experience with repression in their countries of origin likely strengthens the migrants' attachment to American institutions, which, despite various flaws, offer them greater freedom and tolerance than those they fled.
A second caveat is that Hispanic migrants are a much more diverse lot than the Irish were. They come from a variety of different nations and ethnic groups. This makes generalizations about them more difficult. Cubans, Mexicans, Salvadorans, Brazilians, and others all have somewhat different backgrounds and experiences, though there are some commonalities, as well. Indeed, as my George Mason University colleague David Bernstein shows in a recent book, "Hispanic" is actually a largely artificial category created not by the migrants themselves, but by US government bureaucrats.
Finally, while Irish immigrants arrived in an era when there were few restrictions on European immigration, many Hispanic migrants are undocumented. Today, there are an estimated 7 million or more undocumented Hispanic immigrants in the US, which accounts for some one-third of all foreign-born Hispanics, and over 70% of the total undocumented immigrant population.
For obvious reasons, lack of legal status reduces migrants' incomes and educational opportunities, and impedes assimilation. The existence of this anchor makes Hispanics' progress look even more impressive than it would be otherwise. But, unless immigration policy changes, it is likely to continue to slow down the assimilation process highlighted by Smith.
The obvious solution to this problem is simply to grant legal status to the undocumented, or at least the vast majority of them. Previous amnesties have increased income and assimilation, and a new one would likely have similar effects (thereby also boosting the US economy in the process). But that may not be politically feasible for some time to come.
UPDATE: In my post, I list Brazilians as one of the "Hispanic" groups. But the federal government does not classify them as such, because the official definition of Hispanic is limited to people of "Spanish culture or origin." However, many Brazilians do describe themselves as "Hispanic" or "Latino" in surveys, and they are often colloquially described as "Hispanic" by others. Ultimately, little in my analysis turns on whether Brazilians are properly considered "Hispanic" or not. Even if we exclude them, the Hispanic category is still remarkably diverse, including people with origins in a variety of different countries.
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"Hispanic migrants are a much more diverse lot than the Irish were. They come from a variety of different nations and ethnic groups. This makes generalizations about them more difficult. Cubans, Mexicans, Salvadorans, Brazilians, and others all have somewhat different backgrounds and experiences..."
A quick note of clarification. I believe that under the last revision in 1997, the federal definition of "Hispanic" and "Latino" does not include Brazilians. However, the larger point is accurate.
No one cares about federal classifications anymore.
Apologies. I forgot.
What about the Black Irish?
Of course. Legal at the time Irish immigration is exactly like illegal border crossings by Hispanics. (and Chinese, and Asian, and African etc.)
In 1908, my grandmother and five of her six siblings crossed illegally into Detroit on a Sunday when the bridge from Windsor Ontario was not monitored. They had traveled from near Dublin to Liverpool and across the Atlantic under British passports. They met their parents, and the oldest sibling, and the grandparents in the middle of the bridge and then headed to Chicago, where the earlier arrivals had settled in 10 years earlier. Completely illegal at the time. They all got amnesty after Pearl Harbor. My hope is that Hispanics also have the opportunity to live the American dream. Which is not to say I'm for open borders.
Longtobefree : "Of course. Legal at the time Irish immigration is exactly like illegal border crossings by Hispanics"
It's certainly very similar : Then (as now) the immigrants were described as vermin and trash. Then (as now) the immigrants were seen as subhuman criminal brutes who were danger to society - (particularly innocent Christian womanhood). Then (as now) people said they refused to assimilate - even allowing they were even capable of doing so.
And then (as now) there was a political party - the admirably named "Know Nothings" - that arose to serve the needs of those who saw the Irish as the nation's number-one problem. Filled with sleazy demagogues, the party rode anti-Irish hate thru several elections before burning out.
We can only hope that ending then will be seen now.
"Similar?"
No, it is dissimilar in the most important way: it is illegal.
Your emotive appeals are silly. Not only is no one dehumanizing illegals, we aren't even allowed to call them illegal. We must use the misleading term "undocumented," as though they'd forgotten to bring their passports.
Hispanics vote Democratic disproportionately to the general population, especially when you exclude Cubans (since the current immigration controversy doesn’t involve Cubans). I would consider voting for parties disproportionately to the general population to be not assimilating into the general population.
https://www.pewresearch.org/race-ethnicity/2022/09/29/latinos-and-the-2022-midterm-elections/
I don't have a crystal ball to see how things will go with this round but I find the whole 'mass unchecked immigration always works out' canard funny since its obviously not true if you spend 3 seconds thinking about it. History is filled with examples where one group moving into an area already occupied by another didn't work out too cleanly.
And what "group" do you think America is "already occupied by?"
well up until recently a not as heavily as south american hispanic derived population. Long before, the north american indians, and mass immigration didn’t seem to work out too well for them as you guys never let us forget.
Are the Hispanics wiping you out and stealing your land and breaking all their treaties with you? What's your Trail Of Tears, the trip to the DMV?
But anyway every country that ever let in immigrants is now a smoking ruin.
>Are the Hispanics wiping you out and stealing your land and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well theres tons of reported and probably much more unreported murders, assaults, rapes, thefts etc committed each year in America that can be traced directly to leftoid policy ie 'Defund the police' etc etc enabled by mass unchecked immigration. If that counts. And thats if you don't consider the direct crime and strain on resources. According to Ilya all these people are lawabiding rocket scientists yet the US is the only country that wants to take them for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
nd breaking all their treaties with you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Its clear, to the point that some of them openly brag about it that Leftists aim to use immigration as a tactic to dilute the voting power and eventually replace the public they are supposed to serve. Thats pretty much slow motion genocide in common parlance and would be recognized as such by these same Leftoids in any other context.
Its clear, to the point that some of them openly brag about it that Leftists aim to use immigration as a tactic to dilute the voting power and eventually replace the public they are supposed to serve.
No leftist has ever said that, you Fox-News-infused buttnugget.
Have you ever read the NY times?
Send me a link.
AmosArch going full Nazi.
Does anyone know how AmosArch stands on guns? He's making me nervous.
Crime is falling. It's at a record low after a surge during covid. Bloated police budgets are the strain on resources.
'Thats pretty much slow motion genocide'
Everything you said in this paragraph is wrong but this is the piece de resistance. If this is true, then gentrification is genocide.
Highest murder rate in D.C. since 1997. Carjacking is also up.
Cherry picked stat. Murder rates generally are down.
Disingenuous.
DC murder rater for the last 15 years, from the 'pedia:
2008 186
2009 145
2010 132
2011 108
2012 88
2013 103
2014 105
2015 162
2016 136
2017 116
2018 160
2019 166
2020 198
2021 226
2022 203
Where exactly is the "down" part? To my lying eyes, the last-10-year trendline (and even more so over the last 5 years) is decidedly upward.
No one before Jerry said anything about DC.
DC had more murders than Baltimore last year. It’s an outlier.
Aw LoB found an outlier. That means murders everywhere else are down even more.
OK, I'll chase those goalposts. National numbers for 1960-2023 here -- the only "falling" is relative to the 2020-22 record-breaking surge.
Sans that distraction, the 2023 rate falls neatly into place with the last ~10-year upward trend.
The only "record low" at play here is Nige's credibility.
A record drop fits neatly into a fairly minor rise compared to the figures at their worst? You really want the US to be a hellhole.
Huh. So you've abandoned your original preposterous "record low" and in a desperate attempt to salvage some sort of cogent point are now trying to sell that a 10-15% rise over the past decade off the 2010-2012 low is "fairly minor"?
Sad.
Crime really is falling, and it really is at a record low, or close to it (I know close doesn't make it when your pedantic ass is on patrol but for normal people).
What was prosecuted has changed since 1960, so your cited stat is not a good one to use for that timespan.
The FBI database is standardized and shows we’re at, if not record lows, very close thereto: https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/crime-trend
So quit with your DC bullshit, and your spurious ‘1960 was super low crime’ nonsense. That result should have gotten you suspicious of how you were reading your source.
‘Slow motion genocide’ is some neo-Nazi nonsense and you maybe should consider what you’re posting in defense of.
It is a record low, historically, this year is a record drop, you're doing trojan work trying to make figures that have cratered look like bad news.
"hardly anyone worries that he's trying to advance Irish interests at the expense of WASPs"
Actually, we should. Biden did not appoint any WASPs to his cabinet. He is the most anti-WASP President ever.
Yes, Hispanics are displacing us, and stealing our land.
This must be a new and novel use of 'stealing' reserved for when white people don't like darker-skinned neighbours.
...Hispanics?
How are they stealing land?
They are taking over California, Texas, and other states.
Taking over?
And what “group” do you think America is “already occupied by?”
Randal (and Arromdee), in the Southwest, by Hispanics, since before Jamestown was settled. Of course that region was previously pre-occupied by others. Among whom, some of those, "Hispanics," were arguably numbered. Gee, this gets complicated.
Not entirely true. While New Mexico had some early settlement shortly before the founding of Jamestown (for the purpose of finding the cities of gold), the American Southwest was mostly settled in the next centuries. While Spain claimed the entire area from the beginning, settlement in earnest started much later. The only "Hispanics" we would recognize now were few in number and the provinces were mostly Native.
for the purpose of finding the cities of gold
Tucson, Phoenix, Las Vegas
Ask the Native Amuricans how it worked out for them.
Rome comes to immediate mind.
I would consider voting for parties disproportionately to the general population to be not assimilating into the general population.
What an incredibly stupid racist you are. Do you think whites haven't properly assimilated because they vote more Republican than average?
People can vote how they want. It's not surprising that people would vote for the party that accepted them into society over the one calling them murderers and rapists.
...even before they became citizens.
Buzz off, bee.
.
LOL. "I am so desperate to hate Hispanics that I will invent entirely new definitions of words."
The Irish successfully assimilated because they weren’t exposed to the same magnitude of propaganda that they don’t have to assimilate and that they are victims who are entitled to take everything from the wicked society that adopted them.
Its also worth pointing out that 6 million since 1820 is a little bit easier to process than 300k a month on the southern border alone.
And obviously there was no anti-Irish propaganda saying far worse things about them than whatever the fuck it is you're saying about Hispanics.
What even is assimilation? Every aspect if US society comes down from immigrants settling down and creating communities shaped by their origins, a process that keeps going so long as a society is viable and dynamic.
“The obvious solution to this problem is simply to grant legal status to the undocumented, or at least the vast majority of them.”
Not “Open Borders” but legal status on entry? It might be sufficient to provide work permits and let legal status wait…
I was under the impression that the Irish, (I'm a Murphy on my maternal grandmother's side.) assimilated about the time the flow of immigrants was shut off.
Anyway, a point you consistently ignore is that, even if we DID want the current level of immigration, (And it's actually very unpopular.) the people illegally crossing our border aren't the same people who would be entering if we had that level of legal immigration.
Illegal immigrants all have one thing in common that you never want to come to grips with: Their defining characteristic is that they're willing to violate our laws.
So is Trump, but you voted for him.
I'm not sure, but I suspect some of my Scandinavian great grandparents wetbacked across the Canadian border into Minnesota.
Many Irish, my ancestors included, came through Canada, landing near Quebec and spreading out from there. They came across the border and settled in the USA. I doubt they did anything different than many at the southern border do today.
As you folks are so eager to link to that book, breaking the law does not distinguish them from anyone else.
Consider if they are going to assimilate. Do you like what side you are on historically?
That book is 'three felonies a day.' Which I will admit I have not read, but I presume to be true.
It does mistake implemented law for merely written law, but so does Brett's take on the Immigration and Naturalization Act.
It’s not true, but to the extent the book has a thesis, it’s that current criminal law is so expansive that people who are seemingly acting in good faith and attempting to be law abiding are nevertheless inadvertently violating it.
Whereas virtually everyone who is entering the country illegally understands that they’re breaking the law.
Fair enough; I would then withdraw that thesis and replace it with a different one (a 'new goalpost' if you will; difference is I'm being open about it).
Americans speed, jaywalk, etc. all the time. Being willing to violate US law does not distinguish illegals from US citizens. Brett's moral stain thesis is just the usual nativism.
Most people break the law occasionally in petty ways, e.g., jaywalking, so we should applaud people whose very presence in the country breaks a much more serious law?
Quite a bold rationalization.
How is it a much more serious law? It's not criminal.
Send Them Back!!!!
Their defining characteristic is that they’re willing to violate our laws.
I'd say their defining characteristic is that they are willing to take large risks, and work hard at crappy jobs, in order to improve their lot in life.
Plenty of people are willing to do that, without the large risk they chose being breaking a law.
Life is riskier for some people than it is for others. That's what people talk about when they talk about 'privelege.'
Oh please. Pretty much everyone I know "takes the large risk of breaking the law" every day on their way to work. What are you even talking about. You just happen not to like these people breaking this law, not petty lawbreaking in general.
A few semi-obvious observations:
- If we wanted a white Protestant ethno state we probably shouldn't have enslaved Africans and stolen half of Mexico.
- Hispanics are following the same path to assimilation and acceptance as Germans, Italians, Catholics generally, Bohunks, Poles, East Europeans generally, Asians, Jews, Scandinavians, and whoever I left out. There's always been a strain of anti-whoever was immigrating at the time, later forgotten.
- Indigenous descended Hispanics will be assimilated more slowly than "white" Hispanics for no good reason except that they're more easily visually distinguished from "us".
- And for the same reason Blacks will be the last assimilated.
No one alive today was asked their views on importing slaves 400 years ago.
Land ceded in the Mexican-American war was essentially unpopulated, except by native peoples, who did not consider themselves Mexican. The total number of people who did consider themselves Mexican in the ceded territory could fit into a smallish college football stadium.
Who said anything about an “ethno state?”
Who said anything about an “ethno state?”
Uh... the half of the commentariat (including you) who are concerned about the effects on the "general population" of an influx of "Hispanics."
America has confronted and handled successive waves of ignorance and intolerance -- often related to skin color, religion, immigration, ethnicity, or perceived economic pressure -- throughout its history.
Those targeted by America's lesser voices have included Blacks, Irish, Jews, gays, Asians, Catholics, women, Hispanics, Muslims, eastern Europeans, agnostics, Italians, other Hispanics, atheists, other Asians -- most of America, at one time or another.
What makes America great is that our lesser voices do not win, not over time. Our most recent batch of bigots -- whose membership regrettably includes some direct descendants of earlier targets -- seems nothing special, its reliance on the charms, insights, and reliability of Donald Trump, the Republican Party, the evangelical community, movement conservatism, and a white, male, faux libertarian blog notwithstanding.
Carry on, bigoted, immigrant-hating, conservative clingers. But -- as is the longstanding and glorious American way -- solely so long and so far as better Americans permit.
Says the bigot who regularly groups people by thier race in every post
I identify the targets of this blog's everyday right-wing bigotry.
Do you predict that the frequency of racial slurs published by the Volokh Conspiracy will increase after Prof. Volokh departs UCLA?
This comes to mind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD0BcQTIr4c
" Immigration restrictionists contend that Hispanic immigrants increase crime, undermine American political institutions, and cannot or will not assimilate"
No.
The argument is, a consistent high flow of immigrants from one country does not allow time for proper assimilation. The new immigrants need to be immersed in the native culture to allow for assimilation. With a consistent connection to the "home country," via large inflows of native immigrants, that immersion is hindered and prevented.
Think of it like learning a foreign language. Total immersion allows for total understanding most rapidly. Put a steady trend of the old language in there, and the total understanding is hindered.
Assimilation is the model of 70 years ago.
Nowadays we realize our Republic doesn’t require an endless supply of cookie cutter citizens.
Turns out the common values Americans share are broad and generally already possessed by our immigrant community.
They'll assimilate, their children will be fat, lazy, video game Americans.
Exactly. What are you talking about, Armchair, that they won't asimilate. The first generation never assimilates. But that doesn't matter after a while.
"Some people think" ≠ "we realize".
Even if we were strict about enforcing our borders, we wouldn't have cookie cutter citizens.
"Turns out the common values Americans share are broad and generally already possessed by our immigrant community."
But we're discussing the illegal immigrant community, not the "immigrant" community.
We are talking about Hispanics generally.
Actually it is useful to distinguish the two.
It is likely that there are differences between the illegal immigrant and legal immigrant populations.
With respect to legal immigrants in CA, I never saw too much difference between Hispanics and Vietnamese. Both groups worked hard to build a good life in America
That is not the subject of the OP.
It could be something to figure out if we had any info beyond speculation.
"That is not the subject of the OP."
Perhaps, but you may have noticed that comments frequently wonder away from the thrust of the OP, and that no one has been appointed gatekeeper.
And why do assume that there is no information?
I expect there may be studies on the cultural differences between illegal immigrant Hispanics and legal ones.
But that would be a hard population to get at, and also no one has brought it up, other than to assume illegals are bad.
What if we just assume that illegals are willing to break our laws?
Let me guess: You are going to say that some Americans jaywalk, so it is ok to willfully violate immigration laws?
You are going to say that some Americans jaywalk, so it is ok to willfully violate immigration laws?
It's hard to argue with (at least, without your racism showing).
You anticipate my counterpoint but do not answer it.
Please distinguish the two populations' willingness to break the law.
Here's the voter encouragement program for 2024.
Anyone who votes Democratic gets a free migrant family to house, feed, educate, provide health care for, find employment for, and stand good for any crimes they commit.
Anyone who votes Republican gets assigned to monitor a Democrat and make sure that they fulfil their responsibility to their migrants, on pain of fines and jail.
Anyone who votes Libertarian gets to laugh at the Democrats and/or Republicans.
Democrats: Maybe all this xenophobia isn’t solving anything and is bad, actually. Republicans: We have bizarre authoritarian fantasies about lording it over one group as second class citizens and another group as an underclass. Libertarians: We are completely fucking useless.
Our latest batch of bigoted immigrant-haters will lose. In America, those assholes always lose.
They will be annoying, though, until replacement occurs.
I see you've been watching NPR specials.
Does NPR broadcast specials about Republican racists, Federalist Society gay-bashers, right-wing misogynists, chanting Unite the Right antisemites, conservative Islamophobes, Volokh Conspiracy transphobes, backwater immigrant-haters, and other culture war casualties? Can you recommend any in particular? Thank you.
My view, living half the year in Phoenix and Las Vegas is that assimilation is working just fine with esp Mexican Hispanics. We are talking families here, though many appear to have first come as single males, sending back much of what they earned. As my wife says (being (French) Roman Catholic) that they are good Catholics, better Catholics than a lot of earlier arrived minorities. By third generation, they are almost indistinguishable from the mainstream, with their English typically being indistinguishable from everyone else’s. Mostly good hard working people.
No, they are not good Catholics. They have very high illegitimacy rates.
Who the hell are you to judge?
That could mean they're not repressive Catholics, which is nice.
A couple of observations, if I may—
Does the very illegality of immigration make for a better class of immigrant? Willingness to endure the rigors of a long trek through the desert and the possibility of a failed crossing and the loss of all that one's paid to the coyote suggests a certain amount of determination and strength of character, and I think this can be seen in the work ethic displayed by many illegals. If entry was just a matter of hopping a bus to L.A., I suspect that the new crop of immigrants would be less resolute and hard-working.
Also, I'd be less concerned about the people who voluntarily entered the country as adults, determined to find work and success here, and more about their offspring: either those brought across as minors, or those born in the US. Said offspring spend years in the American school system, in the course of which American ed-school graduates repeatedly assure them that they're the victims of systematic racism, and that the only remedy for past discrimination is present discrimination. Their parents might've arrived in the country full of determination to work as hard as necessary to succeed, but the education establishment will do all it can to dissuade the next generation from doing likewise.
7 million undocumented Hispanic migrants? Maybe 20 years ago. With 3 million plus illegal migrants crossing every year since Biden became President, not to mention the hundreds of thousands a year before then, that number has got to be north of 15 million by now.
You understand that not only are many deported each year, but many return voluntarily as well, right? People come here, work for a number of years to support their families, and then return. It has always been thus for economic migrants. Italians who came to the U.S. before the doors were shut on them followed the same pattern.
Why would he understand something false? Very few are deported every year, relative to the influx. Since Biden took office, we've had about 3M illegal immigrant encounters per year, that doesn't count the illegal immigrants who made it across without getting caught. How many deportations? 142K in 2023.
That's a drop in a bucket compared to the entries. Almost nobody gets deported. Once you make it into the US, you're probably here for good.
To be fair, some people count "one, two, many".
You're mistaken, because — as always — your knowledge base is so shallow that you don't understand what you read, but you're motivated to only "know" things that you think support your preconceptions. That statistic you cite ("deportation") only includes one narrow category of removal.
(Emphasis added.) That's from https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/dhs-ice-continue-conduct-removal-flights-weekly.
I should note that "encounters" is not the same thing as immigrants, either, as the same person can be counted more than once in that statistic.
And the same people can be deported more than once - and have been. The killer of Kate Steinle was deported 5 times.
You are right in that “encounters are not the same thing as immigrants" but your knowledge base is so shallow that you don’t understand what you read, but you’re motivated to only “know” things that you think support your preconceptions.
Encounters are only SOME of the illegal immigrants entering the country. Those don't include the number of gotaways, which can only be estimated, but we know the number is more than zero. Substantially higher than zero, in fact.
I mean, that's great, but I didn't challenge Brett on the question of how many people were entering, so it's not really relevant whether more people enter the country than there are encounters. (Actually, looking back, I didn't challenge Brett at all; he challenged me on the point that many people are deported.)
The Great Replacement crew is quite willing to assume what they gotta to make up big numbers so that they can continue to feel under threat by the conspiracy to replace their whiteness with brown lazy people.
[No one talked about DMN's point about the temporary aspect of a lot of illegal border crossings; plus Brett linked to a number that is not the total number of removals - https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/border-numbers-fy2023. You'd think if he was so interested he'd know more about the specifics involved. But that's not actually what he's interested in.]
According to ICE's own 2023 fiscal year report, there were "142,580 removals and 62,545 Title 42 expulsions " Matches Brett's number.
You are just gaslighting us.
Oh hay just in time for DMN to show you how wrong you are.
Is he gaslighting too?
As a matter of fact, he is . He seems to be just about as honest as you are ....
Brett's initial statement was it is unlikely to be deported once you have illegally entered. This is in fact true and he quotes some reported numbers to back up his assertion.
The local pedant idiot doesn't like the implications, so he tosses some shade at Brett and tries to move the goalposts to the next state. The numbers that he is trying to push include encounters at border stations. It was not in any way what was being talked about until his goalpost shift. Title 42 is an asylum request. If you are granted asylum, you are here legally. If not, you are expelled. Our local pedant wants to claim Brett's numbers are incorrect by rolling those folks into the count. This is however not what the honest folks were discussing.
You rewrote Brett's comment, which was 'Very few are deported every year, relative to the influx.'
Brett didn't use the right numbers. Because he, and you, don't care about the truth, just shitting on illegals.
I'm no open borders person - I would love it if we found a way to quit relying on this sort of peasant underclass thing we got going on particularly in the ag sector.
But many are hostile to this group first, and will validate their reasons later.
Yes, I paraphrased Brett's statement. It does not make any difference. It is correct as written.
You have not shown that. The idiot pedant has not shown that. I am completely willing to believe the Washington Post got something something wrong, but as Bob notes, it looks like ICE's numbers match it. What I am not willing to do is listen to the usual masters of motivated reasoning try to deflect, distort and reframe to push a political point.
You are at least consistent in one thing. When you can't cherry pick the data you desire, out comes the projection and conspiracy theory. If I don't buy your bullshit, I must be out to shit on the illegals. Herpy derpy dooo. Such logic! Such genius!
We just don't have the data.
Going off on 'I'll bet it's like 15 million' like edbeau99 did, is not going to cut it. Unless you want to manufacture a crisis.
I'm generally in favor of "legalizing" the large majority of undocumented immigrants who have crossed the southern border. But, a few thoughts:
(1) The Irish came over in a time when the government provided very little in the way of social services -- immigrants were provided for by their predecessors and by charity. Today's undocumented immigrants, in contrast, have available to them a wide range of social services and policies. And, that will increase costs for those of us who are already here.
(2) There's still a need to police the southern border, even if we ultimately decide to allow in the large majority of people who show up there. There will always be a few very bad people who we just don't want in, and we need to be able to filter them out.
(3) There's also an incentive effect -- if we announce "we're just going to grant amnesty to everybody who's here now," then that's going to encourage a lot more people who live south of the US to enter. May be a good thing, but see #1 and #2, above.
(4) We should remember the demographic problem the US faces -- our native-born population is not producing babies fast enough to replace the boomers who are dying off. A shrinking aging population is a major issue for any country. Immigration is the only reason that the US population isn't shrinking.
Just to note that public social services were different when the Irish immigrated. Many received land grants that provided them a living and many joined the army getting a government job. The Irish fought on both sides of the American Civil War.
We could withhold the limited social services given to immigrants allow then to join the army and also give them free land.
Land grants were not gifts. They were made for the common good, to populate otherwise unpopulated lands and develop areas economically.
The idea that joining the Army to fight Indians in the late 19th century was some sort of welfare program is especially bizarre.
Social services are not gifts. They're given for the common good, as the most efficient way to keep immigrants healthy and productive.
A note to Professor Somin,
Every now and then I’ve suggested you offer pragmatic rather than purely ideological arguments regarding immigration, and every now and then you’ve done that.
I want to suggest you offer a post about Japan. It probably has the tightest immigration policy of any major Western-affiliated industrial country. How has it been doing lately? You might want to discuss it. You might want to mention things like fiscal problems with supporting an increasing retired population with a low birth rate and a shrinking working population, shrinking or low-growth GDP, loss of technological and business leadership and general economic soft power in a number of areas, etc.
If Prof. Somin were in the market for sound advice, he would have disassociated from this bigoted, faux libertarian clustermuck long ago.
Couldn't we say the same thing about you?
Why? I have never been a Conspirator or associated with this blog.
You regularly post some of the most racist ideas on the comment board
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
"Hispanics are largely false: they are in fact rapidly assimilating, quickly increasing their wealth and income, and have significantly lower crime rates than native-born Americans (a point that applies even to undocumented immigrants)."
Yeah, this isn't true. Hispanics have higher than average crime rates by any measure. Immigrants have lower crime rates, but that's largely due to two factors:
1) Legal immigrants have to pass a criminal background check before arriving
2) On average, immigrants have spent less time in the US than the native born, so less time to rack up crimes
In regard to the link about "undocumented" (illegal) immigrants, that was one study, one state, one period of time. And extremely unlikely to be accurate because most crimes are within communities, and if you are here illegally, you are less likely to report a crime against you. Also, illegal immigration is intimately intertwined with human trafficking, drug trafficking, and especially identity theft.
^+10.
Gotta keep that racism intact! Don't let data get in the way, whatever you do.
Some points to ponder.
This is from an old article that drew my attention at the time with its statistics:
"And come they have. Latinos, who made up only two percent of Piedmont’s clients in 1989, now comprise 42 percent. “Our pregnant women are 75 to 80 percent Latina,” Rowland says. “That corresponds to a huge number of visits.”
"An analysis of “presumptive eligible” Medicaid recipients in North Carolina shows an explosive growth of Latinas using the program from 1992 to 1998. In 1992, according to the state Department of Health and Human Services, there were 53 Hispanic women on presumptive eligibility compared to 18 white women and nine black women. By 1998, the number of Hispanic women using presumptive eligibility increased to 3,046, the number of white women increased to 417, and the number of black women to 219.
Hispanic women made up 83 percent of all women on presumptive eligibility in 1998. The total number of Hispanic women on full Medicaid in North Carolina has also increased from 2,452 in 1992 to 26,940 in 1998."
https://indyweek.com/news/second-class-access/
This data pointed to a serious scalability problem, being as money does not in fact grow on trees and must come from somewhere i.e. taxes and taxpayers to fund the program expansions needed for this.
Folks also fail to note the economic impact on the poorest Americans by large scale, illegal immigration. When people complain that burger flippers are not making enough and wages in general have stagnated for unskilled labor, this is a primary driver of it. There is ZERO incentive to pay Hector the American more money for his job as a landscaper when Paulo fresh from Ecuador will work for less than half his wages and is happy to be paid under the table, thereby letting the company avoid all that pesky state and federal record keeping. Paulo too cannot expect a raise either because there is always Juan and Julio will to take his job after there recent arrivals from Peru and Venezuela.
So when you support illegal immigration, what you are really supporting is the artificial depression of wages for Americans and Legal Permanent Residents while at the same time, the creation of a permanent underclass of readily available cheap labor that can be disposed of as needed. There used to be a word for that. Slavery.
Some other points:
1. Italians, Germans and Irish were FORCED to assimilate. One, by the closing of all immigration for a long period of time and secondly, because the government was not going to help them nor was there a cottage industry of NGOs willing to aid them. Nor was the public at large willing to allow them continue the ways of the "Old Country". "Speak English, Kraut!" was a pretty standard comment.
2. We are not not doing the countries from whence these illegal aliens come from any favors by draining them of there youth and sometimes best and motivated folks. Rather, we are condemning them to an even worse future than what they presently are experiencing. Does anyone think Venezuela is going to get any better as more of the most dissatisfied leave en masse?
3. It is a fallacy to state these folks are more law-abiding than the general population. To come here, they break civil law by crossing the border (unless they have been deported, then it is criminal). They illegally purchase SSNs of other people so they can work or work under the table, thereby illegally avoiding income tax and FICA. They either get drivers licenses using fraudulent documents (like that SSN above) or drive without. Either way a crime. Same thing for car insurance. Either commit fraud to get it or drive without it illegally. That's 4 crimes right off the bat without even having to think about it much. I don't think these are true of the legal population as a whole.
4. We are not living in the early 19th century anymore. There are incredibly organized criminal organizations these days e.g. cartels and by abdicating control of the border, we are allowing them to infiltrate the country. This does not even include all the potential terrorists we are also letting in. It is not only Hispanics crossing the border these days but folks from Africa, the Middle East as well as China who would be fools not to exploit this national security weakness on our part.
5. If you care about the environment, then supporting illegal immigration is not in its best interests. More people require more land, housing, water, food, roads, schools etc. etc. That means less forests and rivers/lakes being drained to provide them water. In immigration waves of the 19th/20th centuries, the US still had relatively large amounts of land available. That is no longer true today and even where I live. I see even rural towns overwhelmed by immigration and no idea how to house and pay for the services those folks will need. We do not need to keep growing our population anymore but rather should be aiming for population stability and using immigration to accomplish that.
Any, just some thoughts...
Oh, also meant to add this little gem as well:
https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_citizenship.jsp
Here you will see 25.7% of the Federal inmate population are non-citizens.
8.3% from Mexico alone.
So they are not all just earnest folks coming here fleeing oppressive regimes or looking for a better life by working at Jiffy Lube...