The Volokh Conspiracy
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Donald Trump and Section 3 of the 14th Amendment
Donald Trump is obviously not disqualified from seeking re-election under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.
The Colorado Supreme Court and Maine's Secretary of State have both declared that former President Donald Trump is disqualified from being on Republican primary ballots in 2024 because of his role in the events that led to the January 6, 2021 riot at the Capitol Building when the electoral votes from the 2020 presidential election were being counted. This is a hard question, which I have thought carefully about for months now and here is my final conclusion.
An early draft of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment provided in effect that: "No person shall be President or Vice President, Senator or Representative, or elector of President of President and Vice President or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, or as a Member of any State Legislature, or as any executive or judicial officer who, having previously taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
The words "President or Vice President" were deliberately edited out of the final version of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. This, together with the disqualification of presidential electors and vice-presidential elector who have engaged in "insurrection or rebellion" makes it clear that the Framers' of Section 3 did not intend for it to apply to presidents or vice presidents who engaged in insurrection.
This impression is augmented by the fact that Section 3 methodically applies in order from the highest office to the lowest office. Section 3 first disqualifies insurrectionist Senators and then Representatives. It then disqualifies all appointed civil or military officers; it then disqualifies insurrectionists from serving as a member of any State legislature, and it finally disqualifies insurrectionists from serving as State executive or judicial officers. This careful hierarchy suggests that the phrase "or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States" does not apply to the President or Vice President, but applies only to appointed federal officers.
This fact is further confirmed by the Appointments Clause of Article II, Section 2, which says [The President shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the Supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States." The President does not appoint himself so obviously he is not an Officer of the United States under the Appointments Clause.
Moreover, the Commission clause of Article II, Section 3 says that "[T he President] shall" i.e. must, "Commission all the Officers of the United States." No President has EVER commissioned himself or his Vice President either before or after the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment. The President is obviously not an Officer of the United States for the purposes of the Commission clause.
Finally, Article II, Section 4 provides that: "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States" shall be liable for impeachment. Note here that the text does NOT say: "The President, Vice President, and all other civil Officers of the United States. Once again, Article II does not treat the President and Vice President as being merely civil officers. It instead treats them as stand-alone officers like the King of England or the Prince of Wales.
Just as Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment contains a hierarchy of officers, so too does Article II in the Appointments Clause, the Commission Clause, and the Impeachment Clause making it crystal clear that the President and Vice President are not civil officers of the United States.
They are sui generis like the King of England and the Prince of Wales.
Finally, consider that the oath taken, which must be broken to engage the Disqualifications Clause is an oath "to support the Constitution." This oath appears in Article VI, Section 3 of the Constitution and applies to Senators, Representatives, and all executive and judicial officers both of the United States and of the several States. The President, in contrast, takes a special oath "to the best of my ability," to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." The difference in the words of the presidential oath of office from the other specified in Article VI, Section 3 is additional powerful evidence that the President and Vice President are not covered by Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The only evidence that the President is a civil officer of the United States is two-fold and is in both cases underwhelming to say the least. During the Senate floor debate on Section 3 a Senator objected that insurrectionist Presidents are not covered by the Disqualification Clause. Another Senator then said the President was covered because he was a civil officer of the United States. This is an embarrassingly thin reed for the proponents of presidential disqualification to grasp onto, since the Congress itself voted to strike the words president and vice president from Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. It has been decades since the Supreme Court, under the leadership of Justice Scalia and Chief Justice Roberts started ignoring such floor colloquies, which are often staged for the benefit of the courts, in favor of the plain meaning of the legislative text.
The second and even weaker argument is that the presidency is described in Article II as being "an office" and therefore the President must be an officer. Many people hold offices under the Constitution and statutes of the United States. FBI agents for example hold an office and are officials, but they are not officers of the United States. If they were, Congress could put them in the line of succession to the presidency. It could also impeach them and the Senate could by a two-thirds vote remove them. By now we are getting to the land of the absurd! Officers of the United States and individuals who happen to hold an office are two very different kettle of fish.
I believe that I have conclusively proved that the President and Vice President are not covered by the Disqualification Clause. I turn next to whether the events of January 6, 2021 were an insurrection. No-one would contend they were a rebellion, which requires the use of armed paramilitary force to overturn the election.
Noah Webster's First Edition 1828 Dictionary of American English defines "insurrection" as follows:
INSURREC'TION, noun [Latin insurgo; in and surgo, to rise.]
- A rising against civil or political authority; the open and active opposition of a number of persons to the execution of a law in a city or state. It is equivalent to sedition, except that sedition expresses a less extensive rising of citizens. It differs from rebellion, for the latter expresses a revolt, or an attempt to overthrow the government, to establish a different one or to place the country under another jurisdiction. It differs from mutiny, as it respects the civil or political government; whereas a mutiny is an open opposition to law in the army or navy. insurrection is however used with such latitude as to comprehend either sedition or rebellion.
It is found that this city of old time hath made insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and sedition have been made therein. Ezra 4:19.
Webster's defines a riot as follows:
RI'OT, noun
- In a general sense, tumult; uproar; hence technically, in law, a riotous assembling of twelve persons or more, and not dispersing upon proclamation.
The definition of riot must depend on the laws. In Connecticut, the assembling of three persons or more, to do an unlawful act by violence against the person or property of another, and not dispersing upon proclamation, is declared to be a riot. In Massachusetts and New Hampshire, the number necessary to constitute a riot is twelve.
The events of January 6, 2021 occurred for three-and-one-half hours in one city only in the United States, Washington D.C., and not as an overall insurgency in multiple cities across the United States. The crowd was not carrying firearms and it dispersed when then President Trump asked for it to disperse. While the interruption of the counting of electoral votes is inexcusable as is the death that day of five persons and the injury of dozens of others, the fact of the matter is that the events of January 6, 2021 were more akin to a riot than they were to a systematic planned-out "insurrection or rebellion." Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment use the words "insurrection" or "rebellion as synonyms. The canon of construction of noscitur a sociis, a word derives its meaning from the company it keeps applies here. The kinds of "insurrections" described in Section 3 are akin to "rebellions" as the paradigm case of the onset of the Civil War makes clear. The events that occurred on or about January 6, 2021 were very, very bad, but they were not an insurrection or rebellion.
Moreover, President Trump understandingly himself believed that mail-in voting had led to widespread fraud and abuse, which had caused him to lose the 2020 presidential election notwithstanding the fact that he received more votes than Barack Obama had received in 2008. While this does not excuse what happened on or about January 6, 2021, it does mean that President Biden or his successor should pardon Trump for any crimes he may have committed during his tenure in office as was done with President Richard M. Nixon. President Trump has a committed base of followers, which amounts to 40% of the U.S. population. He is beating President Biden with 51% of the vote in some opinion polls. One cannot and should not jail a 77-year old former President of the United States under these circumstance. Accordingly, President Trump should be pardoned in the same broad way as was President Richard M. Nixon. I say this as a Nikki Haley supporter and not as a follower of former President Trump.
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First Josh, now this guy. The VC is not being elevated.
You forgot Ilya.
You mean the only consistent Libertarian of this "Sometimes Libertarian" blog? Though I can understand why he so upsets all the theocratic authoritarian commenters.
Of course we mean the Good Ilya. The bad Ilya is in a 24/7 stakeout of a certain university president’s house.
Yup. The one thing Calabresi has consistently demonstrated in his obsessively repetitive postings this month is that his repeated declarations of “I believe that I have conclusively proved…” is the one thing he says with unerring accuracy.
Of course, in that he reflects the religious meaning of Faith: “That belief which passes all understanding.”
Amen.
"Trump is obviously not disqualified under 14A because...""
"...when the drafters of 14A wrote it, they were not thinking of Trump, the history and tradition of the 14A did not reference Trump, Trump did not take part in the Civil War, Trump was not an insurrectionist because he's Trump" etc etc
Which mental health facility did they drag this chap out of?
No. Look at what they were afraid of.
They didn't want the Confederacy to rise again -- they feared that Confederate areas would elect Confederate politicians and wanted to prevent that by enabling the national electorate the means of preventing the Confederates from running in the first place.
But the NATIONAL electorate elected the President and hence there was no need to have that protection for this office.
Which circus did they drag you in from? Try to deal with his actual arguments, instead of the made-up garbage you posted.
It is not hypocrisy, it is heirarchy.
This is why, for example, when their rioters are arrested by police, they complain about the riuoters being transported in uNmArKeD vAnS.
https://nypost.com/2021/01/08/rage-at-capitol-assault-makes-excuses-for-summer-riots-all-the-more-disgraceful/
People were upset about *protesters* getting stuffed into unmarked vans.
Andy Ngo lies; using him as any kind of factual authority is not going to work on anyone who isn't at least as into self-deception as you are.
Wait until they come for you.
As I pointed out before, it was beside the point that the vans were unmarked. I poijnted out that we have a law of body regarding the lawfulness of arrests, and there was no precedent that the use of unmarked vehicles to transport prisoners was unalwful.
Sarcastr0 could only reply with it.
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/07/20/whats-happening-in-portland/?comments=true#comment-8359364
That was such a lame, pathetic reply.
Of course, this is not hypocrisy; thjis is heiracrchy. To him, people who attack the judiciary are just pEaCeFuL pRoTeStOrS®™, while those who attacked the Capitol were iNsUrReCtiOnNiStS®™!
Actually he would probably call someone who went after a leftist judge like Sotomayor, Kagan or Jackson an insurrectionist. His distinction is whether they belong to the left or right not the particular job.
Probably!
When it needs more than it has, the Federal Government rents vehicles like the rest of us do. And just because the government has vehicles 1000 miles away doesn't mean it has them where it needs them...
Perhaps people are arguing for a larger police state that has ample reserves of marked vehicles?
As an aside, remember this? https://nypost.com/2022/11/29/bidens-secret-service-rental-cars-left-charred-after-catching-fire-in-nantucket/
The USSS rented (at least) five vehicles for Biden's Thanksgiving 2022 trip to Nantucket Island, and we only know about it because one of them caught on fire afterwards.
The only hypocrisy or heirarchy you're exposing is your own. Those who rioted during 2020 were, when caught, prosecuted. More than a few who were prosecuted weren't rioters. Rioters with badges weren't prosecuted.
Ngo spent 2020 lying about the protests. He extends those lies into moldy strawman in defense of fascist scum who tried to help a fat, corrupt scumbag pull off an autogolpe.
Left-wing Rioter == Protester
Right-wing Rioter = Insurrectionist.
It really is a distinction without a difference.
No one is saying this, other than strawmanning right-wingers who only recently decided to abandon their Jan 06 was a false flag operation and were left with this weak tea.
Jan 06 had protests and also an insurrection.
Summer 2020 had protests and also riots.
Both the riots and the insurrection were prosecuted, despite what the right has said.
The riots were not insurrection because of the definition of insurrection, which does not include just property damage, even of a federal building.
If you say it was an "insurrection" enough times does that make it so?
Are there clear legal or constitutional criteria for what counts as as an instance? (Who undertakes an insurrection with a mostly unarmed gaggle, simply by storming the Congressional building? Was the idea that the rest of the government was going to fall thereafter? Are people supposed to believe that?)
Do you think the rest of the world believes this crap, or do you appreciate by now that most of the globe considers it to be just another piece of evidence of America becoming a banana republic?
Saying something is not an insurrection has equally little weight.
How would this insurrection have worked? If the insurrectionists, some of whom were armed (with the more organized seditious conspirators having substantial weapons caches nearby), had reached legislators and Pence quickly enough to take them hostage, the electoral vote count could not have continued. Maybe Pence would have been persuaded to throw out electoral votes (with no legal justification, of course) and Republican legislatures in some states, like Georgia, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, might have then put forth the fake electors as legitimate, or the cowardly and sympathetic Congress members might have been numerous enough to remain a quorum that could sustain objections after opposed members were killed by people who marched into the Capitol calling for killing Pence and Pelosi. (If members of Congress faced no danger, why did even the Trump supporters run away?)
Unlikely it could have succeeded, but certainly not without the support of significant military power. But the sitting President commanded that military power and would have had an excuse for martial law, which had already been discussed at the White House in December, and that might have achieved the objective of the insurrection. That's really the distinguishing factor. All the other riots bandied about here as "insurrections" lacked the military power to prevent government from restoring its operation promptly, and they mostly affected only a small portion of government operations.
The rest of the world has greater confidence in the US than during Trump's term, and they are probably more afraid that Trump will not face consequences and may return to power.
J6 was an insurrection. Only morons and fascists say otherwise.
J6 was an insurrection. Only morons and fascists say otherwise.
No it wasn't. Only braindead communists say otherwise.
Nope. The big story when I discovered the VC in 2008 was the “Obama camps.” But we might consider the Heritage 2025 Project.
Bullshyte.
The Republicans in the North never realized that the 14th Amendment would also apply to their states -- and it was too late to kill it when they figured this out. That's a fact -- remember why we have an 11th Amendment.
Section 3 was intended to prevent exactly what *did* happen -- the states of the former confederacy electing Jim Crow governments. That *couldn't* happen on the Presidential level because the South would never be able to outvote both the North and the West.
The only time it did was Woodrow Wilson and that was because (a) Wilson was associated with Princeton University in New Jersey and (b) the GOP was badly split between Teddy and Taft. Other than that, the South was largely irrelevant in Presidential races until FDR built his 6-part coalition in 1932.
The people writing the 14th Amendment circa 1867 would have had a living memory of the "Corrupt Bargain" of 1824 -- only 43 years earlier -- and the absolute last thing they would have wanted to do would have been to nullify their state's choice for President.
Remember that's what Section 3 does -- it says that the PEOPLE of the State of Maine may not vote for an otherwise qualified candidate for President. Maine would have brought cannons down to DC and fought a second Civil War over that -- it almost did over a disputed Governor's election but that's another story.
IMHO, that's why the POTUS was removed from the enumerated offices in Section 3. It wouldn't have been ratified otherwise.
What do you get out of writing this fanfic?
POTUS wasn't removed. Calabresi is an intelligent man motivated by a diseased ideology into saying stupid shit. You may or may not be intelligent, but you're clearly motivated into believing stupid shit.
Which one did they drag you out of? It's obvious that Section 14A was written to specifically exclude the President and Vice President because of exactly what is happening right now. The Political Party in power can accuse any challenger of "Insurrection" any time that they want. The definition of "insurrection" is so broad that it would be easy to make the accusation. At the time 14A was put in place I believe that the States still appointed their Senators.
It's not remotely obvious that the intention was to restrict 14A to Confederates. First, the term "insurrection" clearly applies to acts not rising to the level of civil war, second, it would have been easy enough to incorporate specific words to that effect.
Try again.
And it seems you lot haven't a fucking clue about motivated reasoning.
The intention was to restrict the entire 14th Amendment to Confederates -- the North never intended any of it to apply to them.
Yes, they did. You're just being Lying Ed again.
“While the interruption of the counting of electoral votes is inexcusable as is the death that day of five persons”
Cause of death released for 4 of 5 people at Capitol riot – but not Officer Brian Sicknick
Ashli Babbitt, homicide by a police officer. (I personally view it as suicide by cop.)
Kevin Greeson, cardiovascular disease.
Benjamin Phillips, cardiovascular disease.
Roseanne Boyland, accidental acute amphetamine intoxication. (The injection wasn’t an accident, she was an addict. But as it wasn’t considered a suicide…)
…
Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick Died Of Natural Causes, Medical Examiner Rules
The only death that day, (Sicknick technically died the next day, anyway, but he took ill that day.) that could be argued to be “inexcusable” was Babbit’s. The rest may have been “at” the event, but were not “due to” the event, and it’s pretty misleading to call death from natural causes “inexcusable”.
You know, people not being rendered temporarily immortal by large events, any time you get a lot of people together, some of them die. That's just a sad consequence of mortality and statistics...
The US with 300+ million people has 3+ million deaths within a year.
Roughly 1 death per 100 people within a year.
Roughly 1 death per 36.500 people within a day.
The problem with that statistic is that the deaths are not equally distributed. Nursing homes and hospitals are going to have a higher than average death rate, colleges are going to have a lower one.
Anything that involves physical exertion and middle aged adults is going to have so much of a higher-than-average risk of cardiac events that staging of EMS and ambulances is a common practice. And this is for peaceful stuff like 4th of July Fireworks and such.
Likewise fires -- the likelihood of an older firefighter having a heart attack is high enough to justify rolling an ambulance along with the trucks -- and even then the heart attacks are often fatal.
The purposes of ambulances responding to a fire is just in case firefighters have heart attacks! The wit and wisdom of Dr. Ed!
“Stop the ste”
Those were the last words of Ashtray Babbitt that will inspire a new generation of patriots to take back their country! I wonder what she meant by “ste”???
One, clearly other legal scholars disagree, and writing more words does not make your argument more persuasive.
Two, the Federalists on the Supremes were picked for their ability to write "originalist" BS, they don't need your help.
Jack Marshall, Andy Ngo, Michael Tracey, Glenn Greenwald, and Mollie Z. Hemingway deny that this riot was an insurrection.
ABC News called it a peaceful demonstration that intensified.
https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1287396378407243777
What a parade of insufferably mediocre little fascists, quislings and haw-haws.
What makes ABC News a fascist, quisling, or a haw-haw?
It started as a demonstration that intensified into a violent attempted insurrection; that doesn't seem terribly inaccurate.
So trying to burn down a courthouse is now insurrection?
So random non sequiters are now insurrection?
Except we have examples of rioters trying to burn down a federal courthouse. So is that insurrection or not? And if so would the federal government be allowed to use deadly force to defend the courthouse if it occurs again?
That’s called arson.
So is arson when committed vs a federal courthouse as part of a political protest/riot insurrection or not?
Deadly force? Aren't cops allowed to use deadly force all the time?
Please answer the question. Is it insurrection or not when as part of a political protest/riot the rioters attempt to burn down a federal courthouse?
Were they attempting to overthrow the government?
That was just an idea, man.
/Joe Biden
By what mechanism would the US government have been overthrown? By Pelosi's podium being stolen?
Nobody seems to be able to answer this single question? It's absolutely absurd.
The plan was to pressure Pence to halt the vote and in the ensuing chaos use the power of currently being President to stay President.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_memos
Uh huh.
And what then? They kidnap pence and hold him at gunpoint (guns which nobody had btw) and force him to not certify the election? In what way would that have been accepted as a legitimate action by Pence? Trump just rolls back into the WH with the insurrectuonists in tow?
You're trying to turn a bunch of upset yokels breaking some windows and furniture into a plot to overthrow the government.
So again, what's the mechanism that a bunch of unarmed morons do this and somehow hold on to power? Please tell me in a way that doesn't sound fucking stupid.
Then fucks like you go all in to support and legitimize the steal.
Your innocent act is dumb as hell. This shit is written down, and you want us to believe it was too dumb to count.
You don’t even believe that. Your delusional ass would be first in line to line some leftists up against the wall for crimes against MAGA.
No, he's right, and you're being absurd.
Trump was barely in control of the executive branch when his claim to being President was iron clad. Orders routinely got ignored, the State Department fed him lies to obstruct his policy. If it rested on a certification obtained at gun point nobody would have taken it seriously. He'd likely have been arrested by the SS.
That sort of coup takes place in countries that are radically unlike the US. And the people who do them deploy hugely more force.
Seriously, you've made this claim unfalsifiable, by insisting on characterizing every bit of evidence that they weren't doing the stuff insurrectionists would have done as just meaning they were incompetent insurrectionists.
They wrote it down Brett! This is what they intended because this is what they said they intended!! That's not some unfalsifiable claim - we have positive evidence of what was planned.
In accusing me of unfalsifiability, you switch from the administration to the on the ground insurrectionists. Did you notice you changed the goalposts? I did!
Yeah, our institutions stood strong against it. When it's a plan to overturn the election, BTW, it's not 'orders being ignored.' It's a good thing.
And Trump got a ton of awful orders executed. You can look them up. But you won't. You're an apologist now. You have really drifted to open authoritarianism obvious to everyone but you.
The 2024 plan is to strip these institutions that stood up of all disloyalty. Maybe this time it'll go worse (or for you, better?). That's not a test I want to make. Many on here are
With mostly unarmed folks, in one government building...
It's a con. The whole world sees this even if certain American totalitarians cannot.
It's amazing how brazenly post-truth the proponents are.
I like how you keep making shit up that even you don't believe, and then pretending to rely on the opinions of the rest of the world that you're also making up.
.
Wow. That illustrious group. I think the only big one you forgot was Matt Taibbi. Oh, and DJT himself.
Yeah, I forgot about Matt Taibbi. They are indeed an illustrious group.
I strongly suspect that it was not-so-well-thought-out COUNTERINTELPRO operations by at least a half dozen *different* Federal agencies who were also too arrogant to tell the other agencies what they were doing.
Imagine six different agencies letting perps light small fires so that they can bust them for arson — a good thing. (A *very* good thing.)
Except none of these agencies share notes with the others and they all decide to have their small fires at the same place and time. And as will happen with fire, these six little fires become one BIG fire that now isn’t so easy to put out…
Now are any of these agencies going to have the gonads to come forward and say “we f*cked up”? Of course not — but I have no doubt that’s what happened…
Ed has no doubt!
Matches Steve Calabresi's constant “I believe that I have conclusively proved…”
I'm not personally persuaded by the argument that Trump is not an "officer" for Section 3 purposes, but it's hardly frivolous, indeed, the only alternative to that conclusion is that Section 3 was very badly drafted.
But he's right on target about January 6th being a lousy fit to "insurrection", and the basis for claiming it to be insurrection by Trump is even weaker. It's no accident that the only people who believe that are people who already loathed the guy, and even a fair number of people who DO loathe the guy scoff at the idea.
If the threshold for "insurrection" is so easily surmounted, there are scores of people holding relevant offices at the moment who are as guilty as Trump, or more so, and we'd best be about the job of removing them from those offices.
If it wasn't insurrection, then explain to me what those people breaking into the Capitol were trying to do.
Being willfully stupid is not a good look for you.
But, to answer your question; they were peacefully and patriotically protesting the certification of what they believed to be a fraudulent election.
In more or less the same way that the good folks of Money, Mississippi peacefully and patriotically protested against Emmett Til. Except less successful, they couldn’t find Mike Pence to use those gallows.
Funny thing is that like those "pipe bombs" the crackerjacks at the FBI still don't know who erected that gallows.
You mean that rickety thing made out of 1" pine?
I don't know the science of gallows but my old Boy Scout rope training was that a rope has to be able to hold FOUR TIMES your weight so that it won't break if you fall.
Say Pence weighs 170 lbs -- that would mean the gallows would have to be able to hold up 680 lbs (if not more) lest it collapse. No way it would and that's why I do not consider it a gallows.
Democrat protesters use prop gallows at their protests. They also behead mannequins made to look like the people that they are protesting against. Big deal.
They manage not to break into our national Capitol.
That’s the kind of subtle clue that allows you to distinguish different intents behind similar acts.
"They manage not to break into our national Capitol"
No, they don't.
Brett Kavanaugh protesters ignore police barricades, occupy the U.S. Capitol
GaslightO had his eyes and ears closed, so that never happened.
Lol they stood on the steps. Complete with gallows and guillotine? Nope. Violence? Nope. Attempted to force Mike Pence not to certify the election so Trump could remain president? Nope.
Trump and his supporters are going to use this pretext to make protests and demonstrations by anyone to the left of the Proud Boys illegal.
Pathetic, Brett.
You are equating an actual protest - *speech* - with violence, hunting representatives, and beating up cops.
That wasn't even a riot, Brett!
You are grasping at straws, taking a bit from this thing over here and a bit of this other thing over there in an attempt to put them together to equal January 06.
That isn't how shit works; that you're doing this work shows how much you are determined to ignore Jan 06.
You've become a shameful authoritarian.
"You are equating an actual protest – *speech* – with violence, hunting representatives, and beating up cops."
We know YOUR violence is speech while our speech is violence.
Kavanaugh participated in the Brooks Brothers riot that successfully helped Bush steal the 2000 election. What’s hilarious is somehow Trump was tricked into appointing Bush’s buttboy to the Supreme Court and Trump actually came to his senses and wanted to pull his nomination…but Bush had already called Collins and told her to support Kavanaugh. We voted fit Trump and got Jeb! Hilarious!!
'We know YOUR violence is speech while our speech is violence.'
When one was violent and one wasn't but you can't even admit to those facts.
"When one was violent and one wasn’t but you can’t even admit to those facts."
Must've missed the lack of violence in the 2020 riots.
What demo were we talking about, oh infant child?
Locate a photo of the gallows with a person standing near it or even better on it. The 2/3 (or less) scale model of a gallows that likely could not could be used to execute a felonious munchkin?
A nice set of more objective shots here and here.
The cross-beam looks like it's barely attached to the uprights -- there's a screw half sticking out on one side, and it barely reaches the upright on the other side.
The "noose" is a hank of rope with a loop pulled out of the end.
Signs on both sides saying "THIS IS ART."
Oh, and apparently set up about 1/4 mile from the Capitol.
Where's Artie when you really need him to weigh in on paranoid superstitions?
Ferguson, Missouri is a better example.
You mean the Democrats of Money, Mississippi?
Yes, they were trying to ensure Trump remained in power despite him losing the election because Trump told them the election was fraudulent and they either believed the lie or used the lie as pretext.
You’re an asshole. Peaceful? This is a lie.
they were peacefully and patriotically protesting the certification of what they believed to be a fraudulent election.
Being willfully stupid is not a good look for you.
Because you don't like the competition? GFY you hypocritical scum, if the BLM uprising and it's secessionist cells weren't an insurrection then this one protest couldn't possibly be
They certainly weren't trying to overthrow the government. Intimidate some politicians? Sure. Like we've never seen anybody do THAT before, and not invoked Section 3.
I'm not saying that you couldn't set the threshold for "insurrection" low enough to encompass some of what happened that day. Just that, if you do set it so absurdly low, insurrection has been pretty common since 2016, so we'd better get to work applying Section 3 to all the guilty.
And, given the degree of involvement in the Proud Boys by FBI informants, it's easier to make a case for the FBI being responsible for the break in, than it is Trump being responsible. Wouldn't be the first time they encouraged some yahoos to cross the line from "stupid" to "criminal", and then screwed up the "swoop in at the last moment and arrest them" part of the plan.
Intimidate some politicians
TO WHAT END BRETT?
Same shit as secession. You don't get to cut off the inquiry with the bare action and pretend the story ends there.
There you have it: Gaslight0 has proven that the Trump impeachments were really insurrections.
Truly scaling new depths of vapidity with this one
To the end of them taking Trump's complaints about election fraud seriously, I'd say.
But, again, you're not trying to disqualify Buffalo Hat Guy, you're trying to disqualify Trump. So prove he ordered it.
'complaints'
Lies. And because of those lies that they took, or claimed to take, seriously, what were they doing?
Good faith in the ends to which you apply political violence doesn’t matter.
To the end of them taking Trump’s complaints about election fraud seriously, I’d say.
This is argle bargle. At this point in the process, the elections results had been certified, electoral ballots cast, and the only thing left to do was for Congress to open the ballots and count them. Any assertion that Congress, or the VP, had any power to "take Trump's complaints about election fraud seriously" by delaying the counting of the ballots - indefinitely was probably the goal - was without legal justification, and it's where the "peaceful protest" crosses the line into trying to subvert the peaceful transfer of power.
You have a problem with subverting the peaceful transfer of power?
You gonna link another out there opinion piece equating the not equal so you can tu quoque?
You are pretty one note!
https://reason.com/2023/05/16/for-6-5-million-durham-report-finds-fbi-didnt-have-solid-dirt-on-trump-and-russia/
'Durham Report' lol.
Nothing funny about the Durham Report.
What it revealed was outrageous!
Michael, it is only outrageous if you have a problem with the government going after political enemies.
Nige does not.
At least not until it happens to a Demcrat.
What it revealed was ho hum what it claimed without evidence was fantasy.
Rodentstain appointed Mueller. Lol.
Here is the 1828 definition cited in the OP.
INSURREC'TION, noun [Latin insurgo; in and surgo, to rise.]
A rising against civil or political authority; the open and active opposition of a number of persons to the execution of a law in a city or state.
I'd say the Jan. 6 assholes were openly and actively opposing the execution of a law.
then so were the L.A. riots.
Should those rioters be prosecuted for insurrection?
Who's been prosecuted for inurrection?
1) Were they trying to prevent the execution of law, or just breaking the law?
2) I do not think any of the LA rioters should be president.
There were retaliating against a lawful judgment issued by a court of law.
Are the L.A. rioters disqualified via Section 3 of the 14th Amendment?
Captcrisis --
If a 4-year-old starts pounding on a police officer and screams "I want to kill you" -- and the officer shoots/kills the 4-year-old -- what would you say?
Now the officer should be entitled to a fair hearing and while I can't think of a justification, there conceivably could possibly be one, but the thought that comes to immediate mind is "you had to kill her? -- why didn't you just sit on the little brat?"
The United States is a nuclear-armed superpower -- middle-aged fratboys with spears are no more of a threat to it than a 4-year-old girl is to a physically fit police officer. And if they'd instead decided to screw up traffic on the Beltway so that Congresscritters were stuck in traffic jams instead of being able to attend Congress, would *that* constitute an "insurrection"? What if they seeded the clouds to create a snowstorm? (It only takes a couple inches of snow to totally FireTruck DC...)
Don't you, at some point, have to look at what resources they brought to bear to look at their intent?
Now if they were kidnapping Congresscritters -- physically making them disappear so that they couldn't be present for the vote -- that'd be a different story. Likewise worse things that I don't even want to reflect on.
But this?!?
Congress has see FAR WORSE. Bombs going "bang" comes to mind -- as does some Puerto Rican group that started shooting from the House gallery. Real bullets that wounded real Congressmen, damn near killing one. I believe the same group killed a cop who saved the life of President Truman.
That's a wee bit worse than drinking Nancy Pelosi's beer.....
It's like the four-year-old -- obnoxious, yes, but is she really a physical threat to the police officer?
Ed of all people should know you don't lock and load when you're going to a lynching.
Same thing people in most protests are trying to do: they feel angry and have some vague idea that something must be done and this feels like something.
The idea that there was any common purpose much less a plan to seize and hold the capital by force shared by the bunch of idiots, crazies, Qanon shamans and the like just doesn't make sense.
I think it's pretty obvious that some people had an explicit plan and others were just going along with a mob that was rioting. And that the first group of people were relying on the existence of the second group.
"there are scores of people holding relevant offices at the moment who are as guilty as Trump, or more so". Name three.
If you walk into bank, threaten a teller with a red plastic squirt gun, hand her a note that says, "Give me all your money, I have a gub.", and drop the squirt gun on the floor so it shatters, you still get charged with attempted bank robbery. Trump had a stupid plan. What did you expect from Trump? He still had a plan to replace the lawfully elected president with himself, in violation of his oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution". And J6 was part of his stupid plan and provided the "violent" component of insurrection. And you want him to swear that same oath again so he can break it again.
"Name three."
Rep. Ocasio-Cortez, for one. Rep. Keith Ellison, for another. Local prosecutors who systematically dropped charges, too.
"If you walk into bank, threaten a teller with a red plastic squirt gun, hand her a note that says, “Give me all your money, I have a gub.”, and drop the squirt gun on the floor so it shatters, you still get charged with attempted bank robbery."
Sure, if YOU do it. Not if somebody else does. Nobody's produced an ounce of evidence that Trump planned that break in.
People try to conflate the planning for the rally with planning for the riot. That only works for their fellow travelers.
The 14th Amendment includes "given aid or comfort to the enemies [of the constitution]" as one of the things that gets you disqualified from the presidency. During the insurrection Trump tweeted "Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!".
Sure looks like comfort to me.
The rioters treated Trump as their commander. Previously Trump told the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers to "stand back and stand by". They responded "Standing by sir". So Trump knew that these people would do as he told them. On Jan 6th he told them to march on the Capitol and fight, and they did. When he told them to stop fighting and disperse, they did.
Imagine a Mafia Boss who says "I want Johnny dealt with, but peacefully, know what I mean?". And when Johnny gets killed and the Boss gets arrested, he says "but I said peacefully. I can't be held responsible if someone misunderstands me". Actually, yes he can. Because adding "peacefully" to a call for violence fools no one.
Well put.
The truth is, those who oppose using the 14A against Trump will never admit that it was an insurrection -- just as (to quote Mitt Romney on the Senate floor) no amount of proof would convince them that the 2020 election was fairly counted.
Trump could have said in his speech, "This is an insurrection! Let's take over!", and the rioters could have busted down those doors with signs saying "Insurrection!" -- with "Insurrection!" tattooed on their foreheads -- and babies born that day being given "Insurrection" as a middle name -- we would still see the same arguments that it was not an insurrection.
The truth is, those who oppose using the 14A against Trump will never admit that it was an insurrection
Because it was not an insurrection.
If it was an insurrection then try him and convict him or quit calling it such.
Sigh... Yes, indicting and trying someone for the crime of insurrection is always an option, but whether it is done in practice depends on many factors. Presumably, if the DoJ had considered the available evidence of the crime to meet the threshold for prosecution, they would have charged Trump and others with that crime. For example, maybe, in their estimation, the evidence did not quite meet the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt"? That would mean a criminal prosecution under such circumstances would be inappropriate, but it wouldn't affect the evidence of what he did.
Prosecutorial discretion, however, does not prevent the Constitution itself from being applied by the courts to the situation at hand, which is that an apparent insurrectionist is now running for president, and the 14th Amendment states that insurrectionists are disqualified from holding that office. The evidence required for that determination, which is not based on a criminal proceeding, is significantly less than "beyond a reasonable doubt", so the fact that a criminal prosecution was not attempted is not determinative of whether a procedure under the Constitution which only bars someone from office (and can be reversed by Congress) cannot be applied to that person, as the Constitution requires.
Not to mention that fact that, if Trump had been charged with insurrection, he obviously would be seeking to delay the trial until 2026 (or beyond), which would be too late to prevent him from appearing on any 2024 ballot or assuming office in 2025. Deferring to an indefinitely deferrable criminal prosecution--despite the 14th Amendment's clear prohibition--would render the Constitution's intended disqualification of insurrectionists almost wholly impotent.
No, this is the right time to enforce the Constitution. Whether what Trump did meets the test to disqualify him from being president I don't know, but we should definitely find out now, before it is too late.
So, in the end, the reason for not charging him with insurrection is that he might end up acquitted, because the evidence of his guilt is somewhat lacking.
That does not exactly impress as an excuse for disqualifying him without a conviction...
I have no idea why he was not charged with the federal crime of insurrection, and neither do you. Was the DoJ's reasoning that "he might end up acquitted", or simply that he was more likely to be convicted of another federal crime? Our feds do like a slam-dunk, you might have noticed.
It's hardly "an excuse" to apply the Constitution in the manner it was intended, if indeed that was the manner in which it was intended. All your comments about criminal convictions are simply clutching at straws.
It wasn’t the way that it was intended. The idea that someone could be deprived of the right to run for President without a criminal trial or even sufficient Due Process, is ludicrous.
1) Nobody has "the right to run for president" in the first place.
2) We know the authors of the 14th amendment didn't think a criminal trial was necessary because they didn't bother to try any of the people to whom they undisputedly intended it to apply.
3) Nobody is saying that Trump shouldn't get due process.
Ludicrous? Are you aware that Article 1, Section 3, Clause 7 of the US Constitution provides explicitly for the potential "disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States"?
No criminal conviction is required; in fact, the Constitution further states that "the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgement and Punishment, according to Law".
No one I'm aware of has argued that such disqualification may be imposed or enforced without sufficient due process.
Really? That tweet is what you're going with? Half the country is guilty of treason if that sort of message is giving aid and comfort.
How would you label leaving tons of weapons behind for an opposing regime to take?
The usual military mess.
That would be SNAFU, which describes the whole of the Biden presidency to date.
No it just describes the military, and Trump's Afghanistan withdrawal plan,
Trump's Afghanistan withdrawal plan was not followed.
That would have been even worse.
"That would have been even worse."
Proof?
It was Trump's plan.
Because the Trump plan was to withdraw through Bagram, and not give it up first. It was defendable, for however long was necessary. And that meant that all those arms would have been under US control as long as was necessary. Pulling out of Bagram first, then from the indefensible airport, was brain dead.
I don't know where you got the idea that Trump planned to withdraw through Bagram Air Base. And that plan would likely have worked badly. When evacuating embassy staff, how do you propose to get them to Bagram?
Check on that -- I don't believe you get charged with ARMED bank robbery, it's something else.
I mean, it depends on the exact wording of the statute.
Note that mere violence as part of an attempt to overturn the election doesn't suffice. If Trump violently robbed a bank for money to bribe Pence it would still just be bank robbery not insurrection.
There are some good points here but you give up on any chance to persuade most people when you add in ridiculous overclaims like that Trump had a reasonable good faith basis to believe he won.
Obviously!
Is legal scholarship loosing its zing so the new plan is radio talk show host?
Scholarship?
He apparently used to be a respected conservative legal scholar.
Though that was back when anyone took the unitary executive theory seriously as a matter of originalism.
Trump should be disqualified because TRUMP! ORANGE MAN BAD! Such is their logic.
Better than TRUMP! ORANGE MAN GOD! which seems to be the only counter-argument to him being held resonsible for his actions.
At this point, is anyone on either side making any arguments that we haven’t already heard multiple times? It strikes me that everyone is just repeating themselves over and over again. So here’s a suggestion: maybe give the topic a rest and see what the courts have to say.
Yup. Wasted electrons.
Amen, amen, K_2!
Actually, some things said here I hadn't heard before.
Specifically that during the drafting of the 14th amendment, the President and Vice President were deliberately edited out of the offices covered.
The full edit included adding "any office, civil or military" so that the offices of the president and VP were included.
Maybe you hadn't heard that either.
Those words weren’t added. They were there before the edit.
If it’s naturally intuitive that the POTUS and VP would covered by the office classification, it would read “any other office, civil or military.” But it doesn’t seem to have been.
From the Colorado Supreme Court opinion (https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Opinions/2023/23SA300.pdf):
The draft proposal provided that insurrectionist oath-breakers could not
hold “the office of President or Vice President of the United States, Senator or
Representative in the national Congress, or any office now held under appointment
from the President of the United States, and requiring the confirmation of the Senate.”
Cong. Globe., 39th Cong., 1st Sess. 919 (1866) (emphasis added).
Later versions of the Section—including the enacted draft—removed specific reference to the President and Vice President and expanded the category of office-holder to
include “any office, civil or military” rather than only those offices requiring
presidential appointment and Senate confirmation.
If you think the four justices got this bit of history wrong, perhaps you could provide a cite.
There would only be one reason to keep wording about "any office now held": to limit the application to the Civil War era.
And there would be obvious reasons to not limit the scope of appointed offices to those requiring Senate confirmation. The appointment of inferior officers is even provided for in the original Constitution.
They didn't want former rebels appointed to what are now National Guard units.
Anyone able to provide a link to Cong. Globe., 39th Cong., 1st Sess. 919 (1866) ?
Rereading your comment with my literalism hat on, I see that you assert that the words weren't added. And that is technically correct. Words were removed that restricted “any office, civil or military” to only those who are nominated by the president and confirmed by the senate.
So let's review: the draft explicitly included the president and VP and anyone nominated by the president and confirmed by the senate. It was replaced by a simple easy to understand phrase that broadened its scope to “any office, civil or military”.
Attempts to twist this redraft process into something that implies 14A sec 3 has the exact opposite meaning of it's plain meaning as the authors understood it at the time is ahistorical sophistry.
"Technically correct" is the best kind of correct, since it means, you know... actually correct.
You are exactly quoting a cartoon satire of a bureaucrat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hou0lU8WMgo
But you're quoting it as sincere truth.
Technically correct does not mean actually correct. It means you're debate-club correct, but not correct to anyone living in the real world.
Congrats on becoming a cartoon, I guess.
So, absolutely correct.
But because Futurama did a bit on it, it's not correct?
It's quite remarkable the lengths you'll go to gaslight here.
Technically correct is not in opposition to wrong it’s in opposition to meaningfully correct.
"Specifically that during the drafting of the 14th amendment, the President and Vice President were deliberately edited out of the offices covered."
You hadn't heard it before because it isn't true. The whole draft amendment was rewritten, and that was just one of the changes. You should read Kurt Lash's article on the process, it's the best I've read. I don't feel like looking for the link, because I'm sick to death of the whole argument.
It's like Steve has never negotiated an actual agreement before, or has forgotten how the process works. Does he have a practicing background?
Removal of words and substituting other words can mean many things. It can mean a complete repudiation of the original meaning; it can mean a slight to major revision of the original meaning; and it can also mean someone decided there was a "better way" of conveying the original meaning with no intention of changing it. Moreover, the person(s) who did the editing may have a different view than other persons involved in the preliminary processes.
All we know for sure is which words they ended up with. It is those words which were agreed, and their plain meaning at the time of agreement which the courts are tasked with deciding today.
Journalists (and so the public discourse) are easily swayed by the appearance of voluminous "scholarship" and writing on the topic. You throw up enough of these takes, eventually you'll get spots on cable news channels, op-ed pages for Newsweek and other rags, shout-outs on other sites, etc.
That's why we get so much drivel from Josh. Something newsworthy happens, he rushes to put his stamp on it, so then the journalists will call him. And then we get to read his shitty opinions in respectable outlets.
We get what we pay for.
The question of whether “officer” included the POTUS and VPOTUS was briefly raised during the senate debate that led to the passage of the 14th Amendment. The exchange left it with the presumption that it does. While this is not in itself conclusive, it is strong evidence that this was the intent of the people who wrote it, and the way it was understood at the time.
Beyond that, every organization that refers to senior staff as “officers” includes the most senior under that title. Would a CEO accused of self-dealing be able to escape by claiming that he (alone) was not an “officer of the company”, because the other officers were appointed by him? I don’t think so. Under the Constitution the President takes an “Oath of Office”, and it also describes “Removal of the President from Office”. Are we really to believe that the Presidency is not an Office?
Was Jan 6th a “riot” or an “insurrection”? The words are not exclusive. It was clearly aimed at preventing the peaceful transfer of power. Trump called on Pence to “do the right thing” (i.e. keep Trump in power regardless of the election results). The mob then attacked the Capitol with the clear intent of making sure that Trump’s wish came true. It was not a peaceful protest. Peaceful protesters do not break down doors, assault policemen or loot offices. We didn’t get to find out exactly what would have happened if they had gotten their hands on any Democratic Party members, but I doubt it would have been a peaceful petition for redress of grievances.
Merriam-Webster defines “insurrection” as “an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government”. Nothing in that requires any kind of plan or systematic preparation (although some participants *had* systematically planned and prepared). The Jan 6th riot was absolutely a revolt against civil authority: they were attempting to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by use of force. That makes it an insurrection. The fact that there were also some fools and idiots in the crowd who didn’t figure this out until later doesn’t make it any less true.
No transfer of power was occurring on Jan. 6.
On Jan. 7 Donald Trump was still the president.
It's possible to take this line of argumentation too far, you know. A preemptive action to avoid the lawful end of your term is still meaningfully a sort of insurrection, if you do it by violent means, and it's pretty common for 3rd world dictators to not wait until the end of their original term of office ending to make themselves President for life.
I don't think Trump was an insurrectionist, but I'd not hang much weight on the exact date.
He was still the *outgoing* president, as opposed to the newly-appointed president-for-life.
So you think Biden is the president-for-life?
I think you're getting stupider, or willing to act even stupider, either of which is quite an acheivement.
You think he isn’t?
His life? Well, he is pretty old...
The Jan 6th riot was absolutely a revolt against civil authority: they were attempting to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by use of force. That makes it an insurrection.
then put your money where your mth is, and call for the rioters in 1992 Loa Angteles to be prosecuted for insurrection.
Call for the rioters in Portland, Minneapolis, and Kenosha to be prosecuted for insurrection.
Ejercito, you return again and again to a line of argument which preempts all occasions to use the word, "riot." You are spouting nonsense.
Who's calling for anyone to be prosecuted for insurrection?
Well, iof youw ant to put your money where your mouth is.
Why not call for the L.A. rioters to be prosecuted for insurrection?
Trump sucks the money out of your mouth when you kiss his backside like this. You’re demanding convictions but we already know you’d reject the validity of any such convictions out of hand. Biden is using the DOJ to wage war against his political enemies, yet he doesn’t seem at all bothered about charging and convicting them with insurrection. You claim only convictions will prove to you that what Trump and his supporters tried to do was an act against the democratic foundations of the US. Ergo, so-called patriots and defenders of democracy need never confront the assault on democracy by the man they vote for. It’s all so stupid.
The whole "Trump Colluded with rthe Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" investigation was the assault on democracy. Trump is entitled to give payback!
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
Trump deserves payback for investigations by people Trump appointed? What's he going to do, kick himself?
Rod Rodentstain…actually respected Comey more than Trump. And all of that so Trump could replace Comey…with Wray!?! Lolololololol!!!
It’s understandable that what happened on January 6 could be confused with civil riots like the 1991 Los Angeles or 2020 Portland riots. Both are kinds of insurrections within the meaning of the Insurrection Act. I’ll try to explain the difference, and why Section 3 covers January 6 but not the riots, as clearly as I can.
1. Past Presidents invoked the Insurrection Act to quell riots. It was last invoked (Section 251) by President George W. Bush in 1992 to quell the Los Angeles riots following the Rodney King acquittal, upon the request of the Governor of California.
2. It was not invoked in the Portland riots in 2020, because the governor of Oregon did not request it.
3. It was last invoked without a request from the state governor in the 1960s under President Johnson to enforce court-ordered desegragation.
This illustrates the difference between the 2 cases. The Insurrection Act permits bringing in federal troops either to quell civil unrest (state governor consent required) or to suppress a group seeking to prevent the operation of the federal government or enforcement of federal laws (without needing state governor consent).
While both can be called “insurrections” because both are insurrections within the meaning of the Insurrection Act, only one of them is an insurrection within the meaning of Section 3.
That’s the difference between the two cases.
Trump talked about invoking the Insurrection Act in the Portland riots. But he didn’t. Why? He COULDN’T without the consent of the state governor. The Justice Depaftment lawyers wouldn’t let him. They wouldn’t let him because they knew it was just a civil riot, not an isurrection specifically against the United States.
What happened on January 6 was much more like the mobs attempting to prevent school integration that caused Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson to invole the Insurrection Act against the will of the state governors involved than it was like the Los Angeles riots (where the governor requested federal troops) or the Portland riots (where the governor didn’t want them). The January 6 mob, just like the anti/integration mobs blocking the school house door in the 1950s and 1960s, was organized specifically to prevent the functioning of the lawful government and interfere with the execution of the laws of the United States.
That’s the difference.
The L.A. riots were violence and vandalism done in retalation to a lawful judgment by a state court. By your definition, that is insurrection.
the Portland riots included an attack on a federal courthouse, where judgments based on law are rendered. By your definition, those riots were insurrections.
Sure, sure. I understand your reasoning completely. The flag in the state courtroom had a gold fringe, right? Everybody knows that if the flag in the courtroom has a gold fringe, then it’s an admiralty court. And since admirality is a federal matter, that makes it an insurrection against the operation of the FEDERAL government or the execution of FEDERAL law.
Right?
Of course. Anybody can see that.
Anybody can
Need we even discuss the meaning of a silver fringe?
The Portland riots also involved attacks on the local ICE office as well.
.
Were the rioters in 1992 Los Angeles attempting to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by use of force?
Also, have you heard of the statute of limitations?
Were the rioters in Portland, Minneapolis, and Kenosha attempting to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by use of force?
In any case, as I said above: I don't think any of these people should be president.
"Insurrection" does not mean "to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by use of force". Notably, the Civil War was also not an attempt "to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by use of force". There's no special Constitutional rule about disqualifying someone who was vaguely associated with an alleged attempt "to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by use of force".
.
Under the Constitution, who was the president of the 11 southern states as of March 4, 1861? (Hint: Abraham Lincoln.) What's the answer according to the traitors? Jefferson Davis. How did they try to prevent Lincoln from holding that office? Through use of force.
"Were the rioters in 1992 Los Angeles attempting to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by use of force?"
The definition of insurrection used by Colorado's court was much broader than just peaceful transfer of power.
“…it suffices for us to conclude that any definition of “insurrection” for purposes of Section Three would encompass a *concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power in this country*. ”
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Opinions/2023/23SA300.pdf
This discussion was already had several days ago. Keep up.
The Colorado court defines insurrection more broadly, as those actions which would hinder execution of the US Constitution, then gives the transfer of power as a subdivision of that.
Using "just" the transfer of power provisions would ironically mean that the US Civil War wasn't an insurrection.
You're talking the district court definition, which no one is talking about.
The Colorado Supreme Court, which I quoted, directly contradicts your claim it has a much broader definition of insurrection, by specifically citing peaceful transfer of power. It does this three times.
You also don't seem to understand the basics of what secession says about the transfer of power over the Union.
Keep up. The Colorado Supreme Court didn't change the definition the district court used.
And the CO Supreme Court accepted the J6 committee conclusions as to the required fact finding (and Due Process). They completely ignored that the entire committee was appointed by Pelosi, with 9 Ems and 2 turncoat Republicans. The te Republican House leadership was not allowed to name any members, nor were they allowed to cross examine a single witness, or call any of their own. They accepted te cherry picked video from the committee, without any chance of looking at any of te other 14k hours. The Dems ten deleted all of the witness transcripts emote Turing over contro of the House last year. The CO Supreme Court reasoned that it was an official proceeding, so qualified as an exemption to the Hearsay Rule. And ignored that the justification for that exception was the implicit reliability of such proceedings, which this one completely lacked, being a completely partisan proceedings, which allowed no cross examination of witnesses or opposing evidence being submitted.
.
Bruce Hayden, still a liar: they were allowed to name 5 members, and then those could've cross-examined any witnesses they wanted. They chose not to.
No transcripts were deleted.
If that is the definition they're using then the whole of the BLM riots and secessionists more than qualify as insurrectionists.
The logic I find most compelling is that of Buckley v. ValeoValeo, 424 U.S. 1, 125 (1976) that an officer is someone who exercises significant delegated authority:
Buckley being an Appointments Clause case it focused on appointed officers, but there is no difficulty in applying the same definition to elected officers. Failing to do so, and maintaining that "offices" and "officers" only applies to appointed positions, would have meant that section 3 would exclude not only the President but the Governors of the rebel states since they are not explicitly named either.
This definition also handily explains why Senators, Representatives, and Presidential electors are not officers and do need to be separately enumerated. They wield authority only collectively by voting, and to consider them officers would imply that anyone registered to vote in a Federal election would qualify as an officer too.
.
Wow! Calabresi joins the nut jobs who think Trump didn't trey to steal the election.
Stealing elections is what Democrats do (even from each other) even if the claim they are only fortifying them.
Oh yeah, the mountains of evidence! Trump still has it all!
...and Rudy. Don't forget Rudy.
Psychologists say that if you lie enough times and people want to believe it, they will.
I thought it was Goebbels who said that - - - - - -
The fact that Pres and VP were in the clause and then struck is a fact I did not know until this post. Seems like a good piece of evidence for the argument. Although why those two should be singled out as different is not at all clear to me. Why should an insurrectionist be disqualified from being a Congressman or Senator, but not President or Vice-President?
It's not a fact. It's just not true.
"no one has discovered a single example of any ratifier discussing whether Section 3 included the office of president of the United States. Despite extraordinary efforts by researchers, no one has yet found evidence that any ratifier even considered the possibility that Section 3 abridged the people’s right to choose their president."
This is Kurt Lash in the New York Times, who is opining that Section 3 was not meant to include the President or Vice President. I trust him on this point more than I trust our latest VC contributor.
I am not going to rely on ad hominem arguments.
Calabresi needs to supply his evidence of what an early draft of the amendment (or Section 3 of the amendment) provided, and the later version.
In re-reading the post, I note that Calabresi states: “An early draft of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment provided in effect that:”
The words “in effect” are a warning bell to me to check the original evidence. Those kinds of words often signal that the original evidence does not quite match up to what is claimed.
Here's some evidence, courtesy of ABC news regarding the Senate debate on 14A sec 3:
Should be fairly dispositive for those who like to base their decision on "original intent".
Link: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/framers-14th-amendments-disqualification-clause-analysis/story?id=105996364
This was a helpful cite, BTW.
It's basically cribbed from the Colorado Supreme Court opinion, which provides a bit more detail and context starting with paragraph 137.
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Opinions/2023/23SA300.pdf
Thanks
Which decision unlike Mr. Calabresi cites the Congressional Record
That is an argument that a former officer cannot be President, if he violated his oath with an insurrection. But if Calabresi is correct, then Trump is not a former officer.
Thank you, Clem.
Hardly the "thin reed" Calabresi claims it is.
Sen. Johnson, a Democrat, then conceded the point and agreed with Sen. Morrill. There is no real debate on this topic. It's ridiculous, and tiresome. This horse is dead and well beaten.
Indeed, let me point out that the actual exchange, much distorted by Calabresi and others, very strongly supports the argument that the President and VP were in fact considered officers.
One guy says, "Wait, why doesn't this include the President and VP."
The answer: "It does, under the phrase ' ‘or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States,'”
Then a third Senator chimes in, endorsing the answer, and that's the end of the discussion of that point.
No one in their right mind could conclude from this other than that the Senate intended for insurrectionists to be barred from the Presidency and Vice-Presidency. No one.
Consider. A legislature is considering a tax bill.
Senator Phoghorn: "Why doesn't the bill include a penalty for failure to pay on time?"
Senator Leghorn: "It does, right in section c."
Senator Claghorn: Yes. Leghorn is right."
The discussion ends there. The issue is not discussed further. Does Section c impose a penalty?
Nope. It was a colloquie. That means that they were the opinion of one single Senator. As the OP pointed out, they became disfavored and ignored starting with Scalia. I saw this very clearly when working against the ill named America Invents Act, where several Senators attempted to get a broader interpretation into the record than they were able to get through committee. Such colloquies tend more often to show what wasn’t intended in the legislation, than what was. They are a strategy for the losing politicians to get their alternative views accepted later on.
By striking out President and Vice Presdient, they made that choice which we have to live with unless and until this provision ids duly amended.
Or, read the text and don’t be absurd.
Writes someone who took the side of the rioters in Portland.
Read the text of the Insurrection Act. And see my comment above. Why didn’t he send in federal troops to suppress the Portland riots? Because he supported the Portland rioters? You really think President Trump secretly supported the Portland rioters and that’s why he didn’t send in troops? Because if you’re right that the two situations are similar, the only reason he dodn’t send in troops would be that he didn’t really want to.
Then why didn’t he do it? Because what the Portland rioters did was not a federal matter under the Insurrection Act and the Justice Department told him he had no authority to intervene. That’s why. Totally different situation from January 6.
He had no authority to send troops to the Capitol either.
You're the only one being fooled by your energetic pirouetting.
President Trump has a committed base of followers, which amounts to 40% of the U.S. population. He is beating President Biden with 51% of the vote in some opinion polls. One cannot and should not jail a 77 year old former President of the United States under these circumstance.
I think this is where the aphorism, "Cooler heads will prevail", ultimately applies. One plausible interpretation of the events of January 6th is that an insurrection might have been attempted. Another (more?) plausible interpretation of the events of January 6th is that a political protest morphed into a riot. I don't think it is a good move for the country to alienate 40% of it's people on a situation with multiple plausible interpretations (like January 6th). There has to be a better way.
It might be one thing if there were indisputable video evidence of either POTUS Trump or POTUS Biden blowing somebody away on 5th Avenue. Then I think everyone would see that and say...Yup, guilty as hell. Case closed. Ok, that is an extreme example. My point is that January 6th is not clear cut like that, not for 40% of the country.
Let the voters sort this out at the ballot box. That is the only way I see this gets resolved without tearing the country apart.
Cooler heads almost did not prevail on Jan. 6.
If Trump gets onto the ballot, what do you think he (and his supporters) will do if he loses again? Just go home? After getting away with Jan. 6, 2021, what will he do on Jan. 6, 2025?
"Cooler heads almost did not prevail on Jan. 6."
Stop be-clowning yourself.
"Almost" only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and whether Donald Trump is guilty.
Maybe, he'll suicide himself?
"After getting away ... what will he do on ... ?
One should not make such serious decisions based on fear-driven speculation.
One should not make such serious decisions based on fear-driven speculation.
How about basing them on actual past behavior of individuals?
That gets us into "Minority Report" territory, a very steep slippery slope.
Maybe he will secretly pay a British in telligence agent for a dossier to be used against political opponents, and conceal the source of the funding.
It astounds me that the Hillary Clinton campaign actually created a fake document with the purpose of getting the duly elected president thrown out of office, and nobody seems to care.
That is an actual crime.
You're astounded because you don't bother to check on the factual accuracy of the things you think.
The Clinton campaign admitted to its guilt.
No it didn't.
Literally none of that is true. (If for no other reason — but there are lots of other reasons! — than that the "duly elected president" was Barack Obama.)
What? Did this all happen under Obama?
The Hillary Clinton campaign was in fact only a thing while the duly elected President was Obama.
So if a campaign conspires to kill the new President, they are not guilty since the campaign ceases to exist?
Any crimes planned for the future are forgiven?
A "campaign" can't conspire in the first place. Members of the campaign, of course, can conspire, and they would not cease to exist after the election.
I mean, the things didn't happen as you said at all — but yes, in fact, the Hillary Clinton campaign did not even exist when Donald Trump was president.
Which Trump's DoJ apparently didn't even bother prosecuting.
And you want to hand power to the same people again?
captcrisis...Yes, I believe they will go home if he loses* again. Particularly if there is a general perception that nothing was untoward in the casting, counting and tabulation of votes. That is key.
*I am side-stepping the entire debate over the legitimacy of the 2020 election. I do not want to rehash the 2020 election. The forensic historians of the future can answer the lingering 2020 election questions.
What debate?
What Nige said. If you think there is a debate, you are delusional. With Jan 6 being only one element, Trump tried to steal the election and should have been convicted and disqualified by the Senate for doing so.
If he again loses, Trump will again claim and persuade his followers he was robbed. Sorry, no consensus on a fair election can ever occur if Trump loses that election.
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
Yeah, (1) Tracey is lying; and (2) even if his 'reporting' were accurate, so what?
I lost count now. Do you think repeating this over and over makes your pathetic case any better. What Podesta did is not remotely close to being remotely close to what Trump did.
It was identical.
It was not a crime, either.
'It was identical.'
Haha very funny, I thought you guys were supposed to have no sense of humour.
Your comment about "lingering 2020 election questions" is intriguing. I'm sure we would all benefit by your astute presentation of exactly what questions haven't already been answered by the many courts and investigations that have looked into the election. What do you claim to know that the rest of us have missed seeing over the past three years? Be specific, please, keeping in mind that many of the readers of this blog practice and teach law and presumably will recognize actual evidence when they see it.
MoreCurious, it doesn't matter what I think. Or what you think. Or what law professors (are you a law professor?) think. Or what the rules of evidence are in a courtroom. What does matter is roughly 40% of the country does think there are lingering questions from the 2020 election. Right or wrong: That is the reality. The forensic historians will answer those questions definitively. Just like they did with Bush v Gore. It will take time. Years probably. History will deliver a verdict, independent of what you or I think. I am fine with that.
In the meantime, at the present moment, we are hurtling toward a national crisis. Alienating 40% of America is not a good way to avoid a national crisis. Especially when there are completing plausible explanations for the seminal event discussed here, January 6th (insurrection, riot, some of both). We don't have to drive the bus off the cliff into the abyss of national crisis like Wyle E Coyote. We can consciously choose a better way.
Sometimes, I believe you just need to throw a 'jump ball' to The People, and let them decide the contentious question(s) for themselves. We have initiative and referendum in several states. The concept is not alien to us. This is happening right now with the question of abortion, and The People are doing just fine deciding the abortion restriction question for themselves (Justice Alito was 100% right about this). I would submit to you (and to others) that this is a time to simply let The People decide the question(s) at the ballot box. The politicians clearly cannot; therefore, The People must. And BTW, this is not a bad thing, meaning, The People arbitrating the matter.
Three things. One, POTUS Trump is 77. No guarantee he makes it to Election Day. He could croak from old age, or a bullet (and there are people crazy enough to try, be honest). Two, although 40% of the electorate might be a core constituency for POTUS Trump, that implies 60% are not. It is a yuuuuge uphill battle for Orange Man Bad to win (note: I personally think that POTUS Trump cannot win the 'Soccer Mom' vote, short of a miracle - how do you win a national election without Soccer Moms?!!?). Three, the Electoral College will come down to AZ, GA and WI; that makes for some interesting scenarios. POTUS Biden could sweep all three, or none of them. And right now, it looks like none of them (but, as Bob from Ohio says, polls are trash at this stage).
In the end MoreCurious, I trust The People a lot more than I trust DC politicians, lobbyist lawyers, or judges with elite law school degrees. I don't think I am alone in this particular assessment.
The best move is not to provoke a national crisis.
I'm fine with the "let the people" decide argument because we aren't sure if Trump engaged in an insurrection. But, please stop smearing yourself by saying "The forensic historians will answer those questions definitively." Except for the delusional, the verdict is in. Biden won, fair and square.
As others have said, there is no debate. There are no lingering questions. Get that through your head.
What does matter is roughly 40% of the country does think there are lingering questions from the 2020 election.
And who the fuck is to blame for that? Aside from Trump and his crew it is about 90% of the Republican Party. If they had a shred of decency and patriotism they would tell that 40%,
"Look. You've been badly lied to and misled. Biden won, fair and square. The stories you've been told are either wildly distorted or outright lies. We need to get over that nonsense and work to elect responsible Republicans in 2024."
But they have no such shreds.
captcrisis…Yes, I believe they will go home if he loses* again. Particularly if there is a general perception that nothing was untoward in the casting, counting and tabulation of votes. That is key.
What makes you think that, if Trump loses, there could ever be "a general perception that nothing was untoward in the casting, counting and tabulation of votes. That is key."
Do you really imagine we wouldn't see a repeat performance of 2020, only maybe worse? Wake up, XY.
>
why should they, when the Dems denied that Trump won fair and square in 2016?
https://abc7chicago.com/jimmy-carter-trump-hillary-clinton-republican-wiki/5369814/
the Dems acted like the German ultarightwing circa 1919.
You are out of your gourd.
Care to discuss percentages of Dems who think Trump stole the 2016 election, which he 100% did not?
'The best move is not to provoke a national crisis.'
Unless you're Trump, in which case not being allowed to cause a national crisis might alienate his followers.
It never occurs to you guys that a larger percentage of the electorate was alienated when Trump tried to steal the election.
“Particularly if there is a general perception that nothing was untoward in the casting, counting and tabulation of votes. That is key.”
There was nothing untoward in the 2020 elections (except for Trump’s attempt to change the Georgia vote).
There will likely be nothing untoward in 2024. But if Trump loses again, he will once again make accusations out of thin air and once again his supporters will believe it.
captcrisis, IF you believe that, then what do you think they are going to do when some Dumb Cunt with only a BA from Middlebury College tosses their hero off the ballot?
Muted.
I won’t hear that kind of language. Call me a snowflake if you wish.
Fuck you, Dr. Ed.
Homicidal lunatic who lies in literally every single post he makes is attacking someone else's intelligence and credentials?
What was the lie in the post you just responded to? Did she not actually have a BA?
Claiming to have some knowledge concerning the intelligence of her genitals?
Why in the world would you defend that post?
Who's defending what, exactly? Mr. Nieporent said Ed lies "in literally every single post." If you agree that's correct, belly on up to the bar and enlighten us.
This is how you defend a post while pretending not to defend a post.
Back in 2016 everyone kept asking Trump if he would concede if he lost and he kept saying no. At the time I kept saying the important question was what would happen if he won but then lost in 2020.
I figured 2020 would be the most dangerous date, but I didn't count on two factors.
1) The degree to which Republican Judges and officials stood up to Trump and did their duty.
2) The degree to which Trump and the GOP did everything they could to replace these folks with individuals who wouldn't do their duty in the future.
The Dem leaders hop should have put tyhe kibosh on the whole "Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" propaganda campaign.
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
They refused to do so, and here we are.
Try running this argument against the actual insurrectionists from the Civil War that were this clause's original target. Why risk alienating them, instead of letting them have their say at the ballot box?
Nothing those rioters cdid was the equivalent of waging a civil war against the United States.
Except for waving Confederate flags. There was that.
Michael, this comment is so stupid that I'm not going to bother explaining why it's irrelevant to the point I was making.
'One cannot and should not jail a 77 year old former President of the United States under these circumstance.'
Even if he gets convicted of one or more of his alleged crimes, he'll never see the inside of a jail.
Agreed. But house arrest at Mar-a-Lago -- with no golf excursions permitted -- would satisfy me.
There was a flurry of right-wing conspiracies after the 2016 election that Hilary Clinton and a host of others were secretly under house arrest after close, uh, analysis of photos suggested they were all wearing ankle monitors. What goes around could well come around.
The FBI spent a billion dollars developing a “cankle bracelet” for Hillary…luckily it also fits Trump’s cankles and so it looks like the money won’t go to waste.
I'm sorry, I think the 'no golf excursions permitted' while being the owner of Mar-a-Lago and living there surely violates the 8A prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment. That is just torture. 🙂
Maybe install a (yuuuge) miniature golf room? One in the dark with lots of day-glo lights, like the one I used to take my son to when he was 7. (In the dark, Trump will still be able to cheat.)
I'm pretty sure there are no golf courses at Mar-a-Lago.
Correct, the Trump International Golf Club, West Palm Beach is "five minutes away" from Mar-a-Lago.
Subtitle:
Donald Trump is obviously not disqualified from seeking re-election under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment
First paragraph:
The Colorado Supreme Court and Maine's Secretary of State have both declared that former President Donald Trump is disqualified from being on Republican primary ballots in 2024 because of his role in the events, which led to the January 6, 2021 riot at the Capitol Building when the electoral votes from the 2020 presidential election were being counted. This is a hard question, which I have thought carefully about for months now and here is my final conclusion.
Leave it to Calabresi to write an article that contradicts itself by the end of the first paragraph.
I simply don't get logic fails from a legal scholar. I don't care if someone is an intellectual whore or not, or if she or he is a far-left or far-right wacko; I admit that I'm disappointed by the utter failure to apply even C-student-level logical analysis.
Anyone who writes that Trump is "obviously" not disqualified is a liar or an idiot. (And, just as equally, anyone who writes that he obviously IS disqualified is a liar or an idiot.) We should all put on our big boy pants, and acknowledge that--regardless of our own personal conclusions--this is a really really complicated legal situation, and it is. Quite. Far. From. Obvious. what the correct end result should be. And, for that matter, it's really tough to even figure out what sort of due process should be afforded to someone in Trump's situation (ie, access to the ballot in a given state).
For random online posters like us, this intellectual sloppiness can be excused. Or, at least, it's understandable. But for someone with the former reputation for intellectual candlepower like Calabresi . . . it's pretty shocking.
I would also add that no rioter has ever been convicted of insurrection. I have not heard of any prosecutor ever demanding, for example, that the rioters in 1992 Los Angeles be tried for insurrection.
Which doesn't have anything to do with anything.
Of course it means something.
It is called custom and tradition.
Customarily and traditionally Republicans claimed to be patriots and defenders of democratic principles. Then along came Trump to expose the lie.
What can be more democratic than payback?
Payback for holding Trump accountable? That's a fascist threat.
Accountable for what?
What are you a goldfish? A baby with no object permanence?
1. The SCOTUS is almost certainly going to overturn the Colorado and Michigan decision because...
1a. The definition of "insurrection" and "engage in" are so absurdly broad, that just about every politician can be accused of engaging in insurrection. (Specifically, any threat of violence or act of violence by a group of people that hinders the execution of the laws of the US. And any action that supports that potential threat of violence).
1b. Because of that, if the SCOTUS allows such broad definitions to stand, it will be faced with endless challenges of "this politician engaged in insurrection, disqualify them".
1c. For an example, if the President pardons a group of individuals that engaged in violence...is the President engaging in insurrection? Potentially, given the broad definition.
2. Since the SCOTUS likely doesn't want to get into the game of "Well, this is an insurrection, that's not" type of situation, they'll look for other grounds to get rid of this.
3. The "Office" bit and the fact that the President and Vice President were deliberately excluded from the 14th Amendment makes nice grounds for that.
4. Additionally, this could be looked at as a political question, and one for the People of the United States to decide...via the voting booth...rather than one for a select group of judges and/or officials to decide.
5. But to reiterate...this is a Pandora's box the SCOTUS will want to slam shut. Allowing the decisions to stand simply asks for other cases to disqualify Joe Biden, and every other politician in the future. And given the broad definition of insurrection, that would just put the SCOTUS in the position of political king-maker.
'if the President pardons a group of individuals that engaged in violence…is the President engaging in insurrection?'
...what?
'Allowing the decisions to stand simply asks for other cases to disqualify Joe Biden'
Oh no Republicans will engage in bad faith tactics, better forget enforcing laws then.
Oh no Republicans will engage in bad faith tactics, better forget enforcing laws then.
Your side is the one engaging in bad-faith tactics.
That is one of the bad faith things bad faith Republicans will lie about when engaging in their bad faith tactics.
There was no insurrection.
'There are five lights.'
There was no insurrection.
'Two plus two equals five.'
One of the golden rules of politics is...
If you change or exploit a rule or law for partisan gain, the other side will reciprocate. There's no "we get to change the rules for partisan gain, but you have to play by the old rules" standard.
Change the filibuster rules...don't be surprised when it backfires on you two years later. Exploit the definition of "insurrection" in a new and novel way? Don't be surprised if that gets exploited against your politicians in the future.
'If you change or exploit a rule or law for partisan gain, the other side will reciprocate.'
Did nobody think to tell Trump this when he tried to overturn the election by various dodgy means? Except the other side didn't reciprocate by overturning an election with dodgy means, they just followed the actual rules. It's only 'novel' because what Trump did was 'novel.' That's why you have to go to levels of abstraction rarely seen outside students bluffing in essays to draw equivalences.
What would you call creating a hoax document accusing the sitting president of colluding with Russia with the sole purpose of getting him thrown out of office? Was that an attempt to overthrow an election?
This is a wild version of events.
Point out any inaccuracies.
We have the added bonus that Adam Schiff knew it was not true, but pushed forward with impeachment anyway.
Are you confusing the infamous Steele Dossier with Trump's impeachment for corruption re Ukraine? How did you manage that?
Sigh. When Trump sends his supporters, he's not sending his best.
Impeachment had literally nothing to do with the dossier. Impeachment was about Trump's attempt to extort the Ukrainian government to make up a fake investigation about Biden.
I'd call it you lying. Again, if for no other reason — but there are lots of others — than that the sitting president was Barack Obama.
You're splitting hairs, but sure, continue.
You know what I mean. The dossier was used against a sitting president even though it was known by then that none of it was true.
Now it isn’t enough being technically correct?
Though you are also meaningfully wrong. The dossier wasn’t used against Trump while he was President at all.
It 100% was. It was the basis of the entire Hurricane Crossfire investigation, which was utter bullshit from the word go.
What's that have to do with Trump's impeachment(s)?
It. Was. Not. The. Basis. For. The. Crossfire. Hurricane. [sic]¹ Investigation. Crossfire Hurricane was opened before anyone had heard of the dossier, based on George Papadopoulos's drunken bragging to an Australian diplomat that the Russians were offering him dirt on Hillary Clinton's campaign.
¹You didn't even get the name right.
No, it wasn't the basis for the investigating of the Trump campaign.
The basis was George Papadopoulos.
You have a habit of using insults as a substitute for informing yourself.
Has anyone else noticed that Mr. Spinach Face makes a fool of himself every time he comments?
MoreBiCurious
This blind cynicism has become a common way to make excuses for the GOP's recent utter loss of principles.
Clinton impeachment-style tactics were not used against his successor.
Or blue slips for judges - Dems keep putting them back in, and Republicans keep taking them out.
Look who's back...
So what you're saying is, even if all your nonsense were true and this were a totally fabricated hatchet job, it would still be fully justified by prior Republican efforts to disqualify Obama.
What Republicans, specifically, tried to "disqualify" Obama?
Fortunately, the end game will be controlled by the fact that better Americans -- those who prefer reason to superstition, inclusiveness to bigotry, tolerance to insularity, science to dogma, progress to backwardness, modernity to pining for illusory good old days, education to ignorance-- have won the culture war and will continue to shape our national progress.
The most important remaining question may be how magnanimous the victors will be toward the obsolete, objectionable conservative losers.
Yes, 'The Shoe On The Other Foot' test. Really, this is a time to think long and hard about that. Because the shoe will be on the other foot.
Because the shoe will be on the other foot.
Underlying your POV is that the various prosecutions, and efforts to keep Trump off the ballot, are wholly illegitimate, just based on a bunch of fables manufactured by Democrats, so that it will be perfectly OK, in your mind, for the GOP to do that if they get in power.
Your assumption is wrong - completely wrong, and if you continue making arguments based on it you will continue to look like a fool.
For Pete's sake, XY, get some information from sources outside your bubble.
1. I don't think the SCOTUS will overturn the Michigan ruling. You must be thinking of Maine.
My prediction is that they will remand the Colorado ruling with esoteric and arcane questions about process that are lengthy enough that the Colorado Supreme Court will not be able to address them in time making the case moot.
1a. Replace "insurrection" with any other word and you can make the same argument. We have courts and trials and precedent to determine these things so that the definitions are clearly established and not overly broad.
1b. See 1a.
1c. Pardoning an "enemy" could be construed as giving aid and comfort to them. If, say, Obama had pardoned Osama bin Laden and feted him at the White House might that be enough for an impeachment or disqualification under 14A? It's an absurd counterexample, but a counterexample none the less.
2. Agree. They will try to find an easy way out, one that probably keeps him on the ballot nationally. Federalism be damned.
3. "The office of the president is not an office." is sophistry aimed at the weak minded. The constitution refers to the office of the president over two dozen times. It's a stupid argument aimed at stupid people.
4. That interpretation makes 14A sec 3 null and void. What other parts of the constitution do you think we should ignore?
5. Agree that someone will try to kick Biden off the ballot somewhere, but there are standards of proof and a legal process that would need to happen for them to prevail. I'd encourage you to read the majority opinion from Colorado which explains in detail the definitions and standards. The dissents are also worth a read and raise some valid points about process.
1. Fair enough. Overturn Maine, and kick Colorado back for more discussion is entirely possible.
1a. We do. The definition used by Colorado is far too broad in practice. Either the SCOTUS will dramatically limit it, or kick it back.
1b. See 1a.
1c. Or, for example, if Obama commuted the sentence of a Puerto Rican terrorist - separatist. Which did happen, and who could reasonably be accused of engaging in insurrection.
3. Yes, it's legal sophistry. Yet, it potentially allows a route out.
4. The only other 14th amendment case post Civil War was the socialist representative from Wisconsin. And that was ultimately decided by Congress, not a judge somewhere. Minimal precedence, but it would be good. Likewise, a resolution by Congress that an individual was ineligible via the 14th amendment would be political.
5. Yep. And somewhere you'll find a friendly judge or politician to do it. You've got literally dozens, if not hundreds of potential venues.
1c. Pardoning an “enemy” could be construed as giving aid and comfort to them. If, say, Obama had pardoned Osama bin Laden and feted him at the White House might that be enough for an impeachment or disqualification under 14A? It’s an absurd counterexample, but a counterexample none the less.
Biden was the only no vote to no, on the op to kill OSBL
That would be aide and comfort.
Especially for a self executing amendment that requires no defined elements
So when the Bush administration did not commit enough ground troops at Tora Bora to kill Bin Laden, that was aid and comfort to the enemy?
Biden wanted more work to be certain of Bin Laden's presence, and worried about the political consequences of violating Pakistan's sovereignty.
Good job Steven.
The murky depths of those who seek and twist words to exclude are also those who support those who did in fact commit fraud in the 2020 election.
"We have assembled the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of the United States" - Joe Biden 2020
Fear drives people to be irrational, and it's been clear for 8 years that fear has been around a lot longer too to corrupt our Blessed Republic ever more with . . . yep, more fear.
“We have assembled the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of the United States” – Joe Biden 2020
Would you care to explain what you think he meant by that? Or are you afraid to say it out loud?
Since NvEric has apparently left the building, I will point out that this Biden quote was clearly and unequivocally a Biden "gaffe" (he obviously meant "anti-voter fraud") of no more importance than Trump's garbled claim that the Revolutionary War was won, in part because the American Army had "manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports..."
To claim otherwise is either a stunning display of credulity or an all-too-predictable display of dishonesty.
The motivated reasoning in Professor Calabresi's post is heavy.
Not as motivated as those who whine about mUh iNsUrReCtIoN®™!
"heavy" as in a waste of words.
They're certainly making quite an effort to keep peoples from voting for a candidate Parkinsonian Joe's "guaranteed" to beat.
Looking at the polls, it looks like Brandon's guaranteed to lose.
President Trump should be pardoned in the same broad way as was President Richard M. Nixon. I say this as a Nikki Haley supporter and not as a follower of former President Trump.
Of course you are a follower of Trump. You may prefer Nikki "word salad" Haley as the nominee, but that doesn't change things. You will defend Trump to the end and, I suspect, vote for him if he is nominated.
Better than being a follower of FJB.
That's useful, Michael.
Thanks for demonstrating again that you have nothing at all to add to the discussion.
Writes the FJB follower.
I assume every disaffected, antisocial, bigot-embracing, faux libertarian law professor associated with this awkward, polemical blog will vote for Donald Trump.
These misfits have championed bigoted culture war casualties; covered for disgraced judge Kozinski; endorsed disgraced asswipe John Eastman; associated with un-American jerk Jeffrey Clark . . . and have never expressed remorse or regret for a bit of their deplorable conduct and grievous misjudgments. Their entire blog is an on-the-spectrum middle finger flashed at the better Americans -- the culture war's winners -- they resent.
What would happen if a POTUS Biden did issue a general pardon to POTUS Trump for any crime he may have committed during his term of office?
There is the political aspect of such a pardon...
But what happens, legally, to all those cases? Which cases stay, and which cases get dismissed? I would imagine the state cases stay, but the federal cases...what happens to them?
The Florida documents case involves activity after he left office, so your wording of the pardon would not substantially affect that case. But he has the judge firmly in his corner so it might not matter. The state cases would remain.
Then there is the issue that many people think that accepting a pardon implies admission of guilt. I'm not one of them, but it might provoke some pundits to advance that opinion although it's doubtful that any meaningful number of people would be swayed.
To me, the pardon is the pardon; there is nothing for the pardonee' (my new invented term) to reject. The impression I have is the pardon power of the POTUS is absolute; that's it, you're pardoned, have a nice life.
I wonder if the Founders discussed during the debates, or even over a few drinks, whether the use of a pardon could somehow help the Republic. Or calm political passions. I wonder of they foresaw a situation similar to what we find ourselves.
In Burdock v. United States (1915) the Supreme Court ruled that one must accept a pardon for it to be valid, i..e. one can reject a pardon. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States) That part of the ruling is settled law.
In that ruling, they also stated that accepting a pardon “carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it.” Which is why Gerald Ford carried a copy of the ruling in his pocket and referred to it when asked about his pardoning of Nixon. But, those words are not binding precedent, so stating that accepting a pardon is an implicit admission of guilt is a stretch.
Of course, that won't keep everyone from saying it.
stating that accepting a pardon is an implicit admission of guilt is a stretch.
Seems that way to me. Why force an innocent person to admit guilt in order to be pardoned. As a practical matter it's an unjust requirement.
The Nixon situation forever distorted the word “pardon”. Never before had someone been pardoned without being convicted (or even indicted).
What Ford really gave Nixon was immunity.
"Never before had someone been pardoned without being convicted (or even indicted)."
I don't believe that is correct. In Burdock v. United States (1915) the president issued a blanket pardon to a number of witnesses in order to get them to testify. (You can't take the fifth if you've been pardoned). Burdock refused to accept the pardon because he didn't want to testify.
I'm not sure how common it was to preemptively issue pardons before Nixon, but he wasn't the first.
Thanks.
I still think it’s a wrong use of the word. What Woodrow Wilson was extending was immunity, even though he said “pardon”. The distinction, as we see here, is important.
I would say the distinction is that the Constitution actually does give Presidents the pardon power, and says nothing about an immunity power. So, either the President is pardoning, or he's acting outside his powers.
The validity of pre-conviction pardons was affirmed by the Supreme Court in ex parte Garland 71 US 333 (1866):
thanks!
I never knew that = you can reject a pardon.
Whoa...I'd call them an ingrate for rejecting a pardon. 🙂
IIRC when Ford sent the pardon to Nixon, Nixon replied that he was considering whether it was "acceptable". As Hunter S. Thompson put it at the time, "There's something just a little bit odd about this story."
The acts underlying the Florida federal prosecution occurred after Trump left office. The D.C. prosecution would probably be covered by the hypothetical pardon posited here.
Thx not guilty. I was hoping you'd chime in.
During the Senate floor debate on Section 3 a Senator objected that insurrectionist Presidents are not covered by the Disqualification Clause. Another Senator then said the President was covered because he was a civil officer of the United States. This is an embarrassingly thin reed for the proponents of presidential disqualification to grasp onto, since the Congress itself voted to strike the words president and vice president from Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
It's the criticism, not the argument, that is a "thin reed." How did the referenced discussion conclude? Did someone say, "Was it determined to deliberately exclude the President and VP, or were there enough who thought they were obviously included? After all, there was at least one Senator who thought so. Calabresi's analysis of this event is, to use one of his words, "underwhelming."
The words "President or Vice President" were deliberately edited out of the final version of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
OK. But by who, and why?
The whole post is a half-assed repetition of half-assed arguments that Blackman has been posting for months.
Now see Ilya Somin's posts.
What you have quoted from Calabrisi is simply tendentious disingenuous bullshit. It's like he never bothered to read the majority opinion of the Colorado Supreme Court that effectively demolished his deliberately misleading account of what happened at the senate's 14A debate.
Explicit reference to the offices of the President and Vice Presidents were struck from the wording at the same time that all the restrictions to "any office, civil or military" were removed. "any office, civil or military" means exactly what it says.
Unsure how that would mean anything.
If there is a debate about adding something and it is not added...then not adding it was the decision they made.
"The whole post is a half-assed repetition of half-assed arguments that Blackman has been posting for month"
You did not need the preceding sentences of your comment. The one sentence says it all.
Sorry, Don.
I'll try to be more concise in the future.
Have a happy 2024, bernard.
The crowd was not carrying firearms...
Incorrect.
Care to expand on that?
The crowd was carrying firearms.
... in a very small number of cases, and not one was ever drawn during the riot. The actual facts make them seem very non-insurrection-y.
Yeah, but what's wrong with a little lying amongst internet correspondents?
"President Trump had a justified belief that mail in voting had led to widespread fraud and abuse, which caused him to lose the 2020 presidential election"
Former President Trump had no such justified belief, what had was a rationalization to excuse his loss. The record shows that many people in his administration knew he lost and told him this. Mail in voting was long supported by Republicans as it benefitted their own voters. Trump is a confidence man that tried to use mail in voting as an excuse for his own failures, nothing more.
Former President Trump had no such justified belief, what had was a rationalization to excuse his loss. The record shows that many people in his administration knew he lost and told him this. Mail in voting was long supported by Republicans as it benefitted their own voters. Trump is a confidence man that tried to use mail in voting as an excuse for his own failures, nothing more.
If his enemies were willing to pervert the federal law enforcement establishment just to "prove" he was some sort of
ManchurianRussian agent, what would they not do?Just another rationalization. There is no evidence that law enforcement did anything different than what would have been done given the circumstances. It was candidate Trump that asked for Russian assistance, it was Trump campaign staff that blurted out they had Clinton's email, numerous Trump staff communicated with Russian and then lied about doing so, and it was a campaign staffer Paul Manafort that wrote in his book that he worked with a Russian agent.
One thing people don’t seem to realize is that Trump most likely fired Flynn for urging him to do the Raid on Yakla in which Navy SEALs killed 10 children including a little American girl…and one member of SEAL Team Six was killed by a woman. The mission was a total failure with nothing of value recovered and Trump and his minions lied about everything concerning the mission.
FBI agent Priestep approved Crossfire Hurricane and he’s a proud graduate of Hillsdale College. Keep sending them your donations you dumb POS!! Lololololololol!!
This guy states both:
"obviously not"
and
"This is a hard question"
Are answers to hard questions sometimes eventually obvious? Sure, sometimes. But this guy doesn't show that to be the case here. Obviously, of course.
This guy may have had a stroke a couple of weeks ago.
A lack of personal relationships -- common among disaffected, on-the-spectrum, antisocial culture war rejects -- might be preventing anyone from noticing the problem as he pounds away at keyboard in a lonely room.
There's an old joke about a mathematics professor who says to the class "It is obvious that [some mathematical assertion]."
A student raises their hand and asks "Are you sure it's obvious?"
The professor leaves the classroom and paces up and down the hall for twenty minutes thinking about it. He then returns to the class and says, "Yes. I am now sure that it is obvious."
A lot of people were sure that Amazon's patented one-click shopping mechanism was obvious, too, after they heard of it.
I heard of a specific math professor that he said of some theorem “This is obvious if you stare at it for a minute”, stared at the blackboard silently for a minute, and then continued the lecture.
RE: "Finally, Article II, Section 4 provides that: "The President, Vice President all civil Officers of the United States" shall be liable for impeachment. Note here that the text does NOT say: "The President, Vice President, and all other civil Officers of the United States."
By that logic, saying "I read Mark, Luke, and all the Apostles" would imply that the speaker thinks that Mark and Luke are not not apostles. And "I raised Brünhilde, Waltraute, and all my Walküre daughters" would imply that Brünhilde and Waltraute were not Walküres (they actually were).
Are you claiming that the Constitution says those other things?
.
I hope legitimate law schools have learned that one reason not to hire movement conservatives is that those disaffected losers can be expected to to diminish an institution's reputation by (1) publishing polemical, partisan rubbish such as this and (2) expressing associating the school with a low-grade, bigotry-embracing, archaically white, tellingly male blog.
The Volokh Conspirators knowingly misappropriate their employers' franchises by associating those institutions with this deplorable blog. UCLA seems to have learned its lesson in this regard; which legitimate law school will be next?
These legal scholars supported torturing innocent Muslims that just happened to be standing on the wrong street corner…but thanks for finally paying attention. 😉
I recall that the Volokh Conspirators tended to be fans of torture and associates of torture-enabling authoritarians, like the good little faux libertarian clingers they are.
Just remember the the House certifies electors. Be a shame if certain rouge states who removed Trump from the ballot wound up with their electors not being certified.
Meh, America would be a lot better if the Republicans blew up the Electoral College. I’m pro-choice but I wanted Republicans to overturn Roe v Wade…give them what they want like fund the border wall specifically for the Big Bend National Park and Key West.
Don't assume Team R will hold their majority to choose not to certify the EC votes of CA (as an example), or PA. That path leads to revolt.
The inclusion of a reference to Nixon is appropriate: that President maintained an enemies list and there was quite a bit of discussion aimed at determining if an enemy of the sitting President was, by that fact alone, an enemy of the Constitution. I remain of the opinion that the two types of enemies are different, but that leaves open the question "Who does determine who is an enemy of the Constitution?" (both for purposes of military action and for purposes of A14S3). Was Pharoah Lincoln wrong to unilaterally and irrevocably declare South Carolina an enemy of our Constitution? Would it be wrong for a District Court judge to unilaterally and irrevocably declare Israel -- or President Biden, now on trial for assisting acts of genocide -- to be an enemy of our Constitution?
The original post makes a clear and convincing argument that the the President is not an Officer as that term should be understood. Exploration and acknowledgement of the hierarchy of things began in Psalm 8 or earlier and continued in Corinthians (and later): "But when He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him." Be he Nixon, Trump, or Biden, he who has been selected to be In Chief obviously differs from those He selects as Officers. The hierarchy cannot function otherwise.
Perhaps Justice Thomas was correct and that the Fourteenth Amendment was truly a re-founding: given all current arguments from Baude and others, it is possible to logically conclude that anyone who participated in the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment was an enemy of the Constitution and was therefore ineligible to participate in passage of (for example) the Fifteenth Amendment. Interestingly, reaching that conclusion has no effect on the course of the nation.
Eugene,
I've been a lawyer for some 42 years and I'm pretty sure I can make and evaluate legal arguments. I love reading you and your contributors submissions. Thank you. But the comments, which I've participated maybe once or twice a year, are like reading footnotes to a law review written by -- oh never mind-- I was going for baboons or manatees but whatever. I'll continue reading the articles, because agree or disagree they always cause thought, but the comments, sheesh, maybe they could be moderated?
Agree
Maybe you can acquaint him with your newly-perfected technique of lunging for the mute button anytime someone says something vaguely inconvenient to your worldview!
If someone calls a woman a (four letter word that begins with “c”), I mute him. It’s a - ok with you, apparently.
Ah, so apparently "you're blocked" is just a way for you to walk away from a difficult conversation. Strike the "perfected" bit, then.
While it certainly gives you some nice cover, I strongly suspect Ed's salty language wasn't the real issue -- it was his underlying point that your oft-expressed irrational paranoia about a Jan. 6 redux is... well, irrational.
So he's salty AND stupid.
I see you are acquainted with Dr. Ed.
Perhaps you could self-moderate by simply... well, not reading them?
Then you wouldn't be in the somewhat awkward position of suggesting that a leading First Amendment scholar should want to be in the business of (and, more incredibly, should expend their own personal resources in) selectively pruning comments to leave only the "good" ones.
Just a thought.
If you are not aware that Prof. Volokh censors comments at this blog . . . welcome, newbie!
This conservative blog doesn’t censor comments as often as it publishes vile racial slurs, though.
A leading First Amendment scholar would surely be aware that there is a difference between what the First Amendment precludes the government from doing and what the proprietor of a private discussion board may be very well advised or desire to do for their own reasons.
The only thing saving this forum (and the larger Reason forum) from the tragedy of the commons is that hardly anyone knows about it or participates in it.
"The words "President or Vice President" were deliberately edited out of the final version."
A semicolon was omitted from the first draft of the 2nd Amendment, that made the individual rights portion a clearly segregated statement. Would you also then assume that the omission was an intentional change to make 2A militia/states right authority only?
Let's give credit to the authors and the people who ratified both amendments, in that they understood broad and inclusive intent of the language, such as an "officer" being "a person holding a position of command or authority".
Or at least take a consistent view, not one driven by one's desired outcome. That said, I don't know how Calabresi interprets the 2nd Amendment. Perhaps he is consistent?
You quote the Appointments clause: “[The President] shall nominate, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the Supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States.” But this is a misquote. The clause says “[The President] shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, *whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for*….”
I have understood the phrase “whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for” to refer to the president and vice president (and maybe members of Congress?), since they are the people for whom the Constitution specifies a selection method. Which would make sense: The president does not appoint the president or vice president, other than by operation of the twenty-fifth amendment. If the president and vice president are simply not officers of the United States at all, then what is the role of the phrase “whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for”?
Assuming SCOTUS accepts the case from Colorado or from some other state, STEVEN CALABRESI MUST file an Amicis Brief with court.
Mr. CalaBresi!....Please MAKE HASTE! Please file your Amicis Brief the instant SCOTUS accepts the case.
Amicis Briefs will be key to winning at SCOTUS. Trump needs to get as many Amicis Briefs as he can muster the instant SCOTUS accepts the case.
"An early draft of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment provided in effect that:"
AYFKM?
This is what the original draft said. I can find no evidence that the quoted text ever existed as a draft. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a very dishonest use of the "in effect" qualifier.
"'The President, Vice President all civil Officers of the United States' shall be liable for impeachment."
It doesn't say, "liable for impeachment". I wonder why the professor chose to paraphrase the second half of the sentence instead of quoting the whole thing?
It's also worth noting that there was just a single reference in the Senate debate to the fact that the president and vice president were not explicitly mentioned in Howard's draft as "officer(s) of the United States," the way members of Congress and state officials had been itemized in the text. Would the disqualification clause of the amendment not cover the top posts in the executive branch?
"Why did you omit to exclude them?" asked Maryland Democratic Sen. Reverdy Johnson.
"Let me call the Senator's attention to the words 'or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States,'" Morrill said, ending the discussion on that point.
Seems the people who wrote the amendment had an entirely opposite opinion.
More Desperation on Section Three
Mark Graber
Perhaps the most remarkable feature of the debate over whether Donald Trump should be disqualified from holding office under Section Three is the extent to which Trump supporters largely concede or at least do not attempt to rebut claims that Trump engaged in insurrection. Instead, we get claims that it just turns out that Section Three is not presently enforceable or, lo and behold, there is a presidential exception to Section Three no one thought of. But this claim is nonsense, even when appearing in the New York Times.
Professor Kurt Lash has been championing this claim, but his evidence is imagined or just made up. His recent piece in the New York Times claims “there was not a person in the Senate or House worried about loyal Americans electing a former rebel like Jefferson Davis as president.” There is no evidence for this assertion. No one states, “I am not worried about this possibility.” No one. Not in the framing debates. Not in the ratifying debates. This is strictly Professor Lash’s imagined past. You can find quotation after quotation about their worries that rebels more generally would control the national government. Newspapers at the time reported on a movement to nominate Robert E. Lee for president (see Public Ledger, May 8, 1866). Gerard Magliocca's discussions of the Amnesty Act of 1872 report on speeches, one by John Bingham, specifically noting the possible of Jefferson Davis seeking the presidency.
Professor Lash similarly misrepresents history when he claims that “Congressional Republicans were so concerned about mischief in the Electoral College that they delayed the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment.” Wrong again. The Joint Committee’s draft of Section Three did not simply as, Professor Lash claims, “prohibit[] rebels from voting for presidential electors.” That provision forbade all rebels from voting in ALL federal elections for four years. Senators objected to this provision both as covering too many people and covering too short a time. The replacement provision, what is now Section Three, covered far fewer people (only former officeholders), but for a much longer time period (forever, unless amnestied by Congress). There is not a single Senator who claims that the point of Section Three was to prevent rebels from serving as presidential electors. Indeed, the final Section Three did not close what Lash thinks was a "loophole." Rebels could still vote for members of the Electoral College. Many rebels who did not hold office before the Civil War served as electors. Robert E. Lee could not serve as an elector, but his chief of staff who was free to support Robert E. Lee for president could and did serve as an elector. Not exactly a great solution for preventing Robert E. Lee from becoming president.
Professor Lash insists that ratifiers may have been confused by Section Three and thought the president may have been excluded. Both he and I have gone through the ratification debates in some detail. The confused ratifier exists only in Professor Lash's imagination. As of now, neither he nor I nor anyone else has found a single ratifier who was confused on that score. Governor Brownlow of Tennessee was typical in informing residents that the “third section is intended to prevent that class of rebel leaders from holding office, who by violating their official oaths, added one great offense to another.” Note that the reference is to “office.” Everyone agrees that the President holds an office. You can find quotation after quotation in both the records of the framing and ratifying debates in which participants declare that rebels who held office before the Civil War are barred from holding office after the Civil War. So far, outside that the quotation from Reverdy Johnson that he immediately recanted (exactly why we accept the word of a Democrat over a Republican when interpreting the Fourteenth Amendment is another mystery), no one has found a single participant in the debates over the Fourteenth Amendment who made any constitutional distinction between an office and a civil officer, or an officer, an officer of the United States and an officer and the United States.
I confess to being unsure what Professor Lash means when he states that “no one has yet found evidence that any ratifier even considered the possibility that Section 3 abridged the people’s right to choose their president.” Consider what the good citizens of Maine learned from their newspapers. The September 21, 1866, issue of The Union and Journal summarized Section Three as providing that “a large schedule of persons civil and military, engaged in the late rebellion, shall be ineligible to any federal office hereafter until absolved by a two-thirds vote of each House of Congress.” General Harriman in another speech covered by the Portland Daily Press declared, “the third section declares who shall not hold office.” Harriman continued, "High-handed rebels who plotted treason in the Capitol, who inaugurated rebellion and devastated the country with bloody war, are declared to be forever disfranchised, with a provision that the disability may be removed by Congress. Is not that reasonable? Are you prepared to admit Jeff Davis to take the oath of office and make your laws?" The Constitution makes clear the presidency is an office. I have yet to find a quotation that declares rebels may not be Attorney General. Does this mean there is any ambiguity in Section Three on that score.
Professor Lash notes Blount Case, but for unknown reasons fails to inform the reader that the debate on Blount’s Case was whether members of Congress were civil officers of the United States for purposes of the impeachment clause and that Congress never resolved that matter. His work also fails to note that the 39th Congress discussed this matter and decided not to reach any conclusion on whether the impeachment clause covered members of Congress. That same discussion did, however, conclude that unless the context was clear all federal officers should be considered officers of the Government and officers under the Government. Members rejected claims that the Constitution divided government officials into “officers of the United States” and “officers under the United States.” The committee report declared, “It is irresistibly evident that no argument can be based on the different sense of the words ‘of’ and ‘under.’” No difference existed between “an officer ‘of’ the United States, or one ‘under’ the government of the United States,” the report concluded. “In either case he has been brought within the constitutional meaning of these words . . . because they are made by the Constitution equivalent and interchangeable.” You can find this report in the Congressional Globe, 39th Congress, 1st Sess., p. 3939-40.
If this is the best President Trump's supporters can do, disqualification seems in the air.
"They [presidents and vice presidents] are sui generis like the King of England and the Prince of Wales."
This is one of the most profoundly stupid comments I've ever read anywhere, anytime. The writer obviously has chop sui for a brain.
This post continues a flaw in Republican taking points. Trumps insurrection is not limited to just Jan 6. It includes the fake electors, pressuring local officials to declare him the winner, and demanding Pence reject EC votes.
The argument that the EC electors are included is flawed because it has been recently established that the WC electors can be legally bound to vote for their candidate.
What is the actual text of the “early draft” referred to in the statement
“An early draft of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment provided in effect that: ‘No person shall be President or Vice President, Senator or Representative, or elector of President of President and Vice President; or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States; or under any State, or as a Member of any State Legislature, or as any executive or judicial officer who, having previously taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.’ ”
And what is the source (including page number)? Congressional Globe including page number)?
Here is a discussion of the history and implications of the wording of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. It's obviously not "original source" but it insists that the purported original version containing references to the President and Vice President was in "all the papers," (figuratively speaking).
https://lawliberty.org/the-fourteenth-amendments-ambiguous-section-three/
From that hyperlink: