The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Why Section 3 Disqualification Doesn't Require a Prior Criminal Conviction on Charges of Insurrection [Updated]
The reason is a combination of the general structure of our legal system and the original meaning of Section 3.

One of the most often-raised objections to the Colorado Supreme Court's decision disqualifying Trump from running for president under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is that Trump has never been convicted of engaging in insurrection. As conservative Washington Post columnist Jim Geraghty puts it: "If you're going to throw a presidential candidate off the ballot for engaging in an insurrection through his personal actions, shouldn't he first be convicted of engaging in an insurrection?"
The answer to this question is "no." The reasons why are based on a combination of the basic structure of our legal system, and the original meaning of Section 3.
A standard element of our legal system is that the same events often give rise to both civil and criminal liability. For example, a person who commits rape, murder, or assault is subject to criminal penalties, and also to civil suits by his or her victims. In such cases, a criminal conviction is not a prerequisite to civil liability. Indeed, even an actual acquittal on criminal charges doesn't necessarily preclude civil lawsuits against the perpetrator. Just ask O.J. Simpson, who was famously acquitted of criminal charges in the murder of his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson, and Ron Goldman, but later lost a civil case filed by the victims' families. The criminal acquittal didn't stop Simpson from incurring $33.5 million in civil liability. The criminal and civil cases were distinct, and the result of one did not determine that of the other.
The same reasoning applies to Trump. The absence of a criminal conviction for insurrection doesn't immunize him from civil proceedings arising from his role in the January 6 attack on the Capitol. Disqualification under Section 3 is a civil issue, not a criminal one. It cannot result in a prison sentence or other criminal sanctions.
There are many reasons why civil and criminal cases arising from the same events might turn out differently. The most obvious is that a criminal conviction requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt, while a civil plaintiff can prevail merely based on a preponderance of evidence standard (a slightly more than 50% chance that her position is right). In the Colorado Section 3 case, state courts found that the plaintiffs had sufficient proof to satisfy a "clear and convincing evidence" standard (a higher burden than preponderance, but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt).
The lower standard of proof and other procedural differences between criminal and civil cases are justified by the generally less severe consequences at stake in the latter. Civil defendants don't risk the death penalty, prison terms, or getting a criminal record. In this case, Trump doesn't even face the prospect of forfeiting any of his property or paying damages. All he stands to lose is eligibility for various state and federal government jobs.
There are situations where the consequences of civil liability are so grave that the civil-criminal distinction may seem artificial, as when defendants end up paying enormous damages that force them into bankruptcy. A short prison term might be less painful than that. But Section 3 disqualification isn't one of those cases.
In addition to these general considerations about the structure of the legal system, there are also points specific to the original meaning of Section 3. None of the ex-Confederates who were adjudged disqualified during Reconstruction had ever been convicted of any crimes related to their roles in the Civil War. That strongly suggests the original understanding didn't require prior criminal conviction for insurrection - or any other offense - before an insurrectionist could be disqualified.
In addition, it's important to recognize that tens of thousands of Confederate troops had surrendered under parole terms that arguably exempted them from prosecution for their wartime activities so long as they did not engage in further insurrection or other lawbreaking. The most famous example is General Ulysses S. Grant allowing Robert E. Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia to surrender under terms that allowed "each officer and man… to return to their homes, not to be disturbed by United States authority so long as they observe their paroles and the laws in force where they may reside" (emphasis added).
Lee's army - and other Confederate forces who surrendered on similar terms - included large numbers of men who could be disqualified under Section 3, because they had previously held public office. That includes Lee himself, subject to disqualification by virtue his previous service as a high-ranking US Army officer (Section 3 disqualifies any insurrectionist who had previously been an "officer of the United States," a category that included commissioned military officers).
After the war, there was disagreement over whether Lee's parole terms exempted him prosecution. Ultimately, attempts to prosecute him were dropped. It is implausible to conclude that the framers and ratifiers of Section 3 thought that Lee and others like him were exempt from disqualification, merely because they were not prosecuted for insurrection, and possibly could not be, given the terms of their surrender.
Legal considerations aside, the victorious Unionists were not willing to prosecute and imprison the many thousands of ex-Confederates covered by Section 3. On the other hand, they were determined to prevent them from holding public office.
In sum, the idea that Section 3 disqualification requires a prior criminal conviction for insurrection is at odds with the general structure of our legal system, which separates civil and criminal liability. It is equally at odds with the original understanding of Section 3.
There is a separate argument about how much civil due process is needed before someone can be disqualified under Section 3. In my view, the trial Colorado held is more than enough. But wherever you come down on this civil due process issue, it's distinct from the claim that a criminal conviction is needed.
UPDATE: Conservative political commentator Conn Carroll criticized this post in a Washington Examiner column. I have responded to him here.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Ilya, would you change your mind on your Trump hatred if he agreed to legalize every semi-retarded third world migrant who wanted to immigrate to the U.S. for free shit?
In short, accusation is sufficient due process. Perhaps it is time for red states to remove Biden from the ballot for bribery and Kamala for supporting the CHAZ insurrection. This will end very badly if the CO Supremes are not smacked down.
.
That is indeed short, but it is of course not remotely what he said. There. Was. A. Hearing.
Do you think that you can find judges that would hold hearings and come to those conclusions?
"There. Was. A. Hearing."?
Which "hearing" would that be?
Are you that unfamiliar with what happened in Colorado? Hint: the CO Supreme Court did not just decide one day on a whim to rule on whether Trump was eligible. A suit was brought pursuant to Colorado law. There was a hearing. Testimony, witnesses, evidence, all that. And then at the end, the judge ruled that Trump had engaged in insurrection but that he wasn't an "officer" as that term is used in A14S3. The Colorado court agreed with the fact finding but reversed the ruling that Trump wasn't an officer.
Stupid edit function not working. The last sentence was supposed to say "The Colorado SUPREME Court agreed with the fact finding but reversed the ruling that Trump wasn't an officer."
With the lion's share of the "Evidence" being the kangaroo court 1/6 Commission that did not keep any of the documents of their "investigative work"?
Well, using your logic, there were no crimes against blacks in the Democrat South of the 1950's. There were hearings, after all.
In his withdrawal from Afghanistan, Brandon left behind weapons and equipment for the Taliban.
That is aid or comfort to the enemy.
Brandon's disqualified.
No, it isn't. But your user handle is apt.
Exactly why not?!?
Because he is CIC? Then Trump can't be touched, either.
For his Afghanistan withdrawal plan? Yes.
All documents were kept. What are you talking about?
No, they were not. They were missing documents, videos of the interrogations, etc.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/j6-committee-failed-to-preserve-records-has-no-data-on-capitol-hill-security-failures-gop-charges
There were no "interrogations"; this isn't a 1950s B-movie. There were depositions.
And you should probably read past the headlines, or even the first 14 words of the headlines, of the stories you want to cite. They did not keep the videos of the depositions that they ended up not using — but they did keep the transcripts of those depositions. No documents are missing.
The January 6th committee followed the rules that were in place at the time it ended its work. The Republicans revised the rules and made demands aimed at discrediting the committee's work. Not surprisingly, they put Rep. Loudermilk in charge of their revisionist efforts; Loudermilk led a tour of House Office Buildings the day before the insurrection, and one of his guests was documented on social media shouting threats at lawmakers.
Somehow clause 5 of the 14th seemingly is in plase to prevent posse charges. Yes there was a lawful suit brought to the court of colorado. But since the J6 day, all the pupblic has heard is DJT was somehow involved. No concrete evidence has been presented to convict by any jurisprudence. The presumption of "innocent until proven guilty" is the right of every citizen (non-citizen) in the USA. Has DJT's citizen status been legally vacated? The group that brought the complaint to the colorado court, may have a grievance, but the issue of direct involvement of Insurection was bypassed by any action of jurisprudence of the requirements of clause 5 of the 14th Amendment.
I have not been able to put my hands on any document of US Congress that immediately states that DJT is an Rebellious Insurection or that there ever was an Insurection. Yes the J6 Committee 157 page report immplies this, but forthwith no conviction. I would think that if a conviction had happened, the following indictment of the 14th clause 3 would prevail.
The judges of the Colorado Supreme Court convicticted a citizen of Insurection, without the authority of the US Congress.
Thank you for clarifying which "hearing" you were referring to since there have been several "hearings" in other states that came to a different conclusion.
Congress made rebellion and/or insurrection a federal crime in 18 USC 2383 in 1948, which removed it from a civil consideration in terms of disqualification. After that point, the only legitimate disqualification has to come through a federal prosecution and conviction, period. ILYA SOMIN is wrong. He knows he is wrong. He published this hit piece just to get facetime. Why REASON would allow it is another story.
.
Almost a century earlier, actually.
Um, I'm afraid you'll need to show your work there. That's pure non sequitur.
No discovery, no subpoena power, no jury. No Due Process.
There was indeed subpoena power. And Trump never attempted to take discovery, nor made a proffer as to what he thought he needed discovery to show.
And why do you think a proceeding of this nature requires a jury?
Asking the Trump cult to furnish legal authority is a mug's game.
"Which 'hearing' would that be?"
Let’s see now. Donald Trump had notice of the charges against him, the relief sought by the petitioners, and detailed specification of the underlying factual and legal basis for the petition. His lawyers litigated multiple pretrial motions in the trial court and in the Supreme Court of Colorado. AFAIK, Trump did not seek to conduct any pretrial discovery, and he made no offer of proof to the trial court as to how discovery would have assisted his defense on the merits. (The petitioners sought to take a pretrial evidentiary deposition of Trump, but the trial court denied their application to do so.) The trial court scheduled five full days for taking proof, with the time for presentation equally divided between the petitioners and the respondent/intervenors (and Trump did not take all of the time he was allotted). The Rules of Civil Procedure applied at trial. Trump had the subpoena power of the trial court to compel the attendance of witnesses on his behalf. Trump’s lawyers cross-examined witnesses called on behalf of the petitioners. Trump had the opportunity to testify at trial; he elected not to do so. While the applicable statutes specified that the petitioners had the burden of proof by a preponderance of evidence, the trial court determined that the proof met the higher standard of clear and convincing evidence, had that standard been applicable. All parties had the opportunity to submit proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law. The trial court issued a comprehensive and detailed final order.
The Supreme Court of Colorado exercised discretionary review. The parties submitted comprehensive briefing. The per curiam opinion of the Supreme Court is comprehensive and is tied closely to the evidentiary record developed before the trial court. Trump has the opportunity under 28 U.S.C. § 1257 to petition the United States Supreme Court for review by certiorari. If disqualified, Trump has the opportunity to ask Congress by a two-thirds vote of each House to remove the disability.
I am beginning to think that Mr. Bumble is a shrewd practitioner of Poe's Law.
I'm beginning to think that Mr. Bumble is a coward because he never has the guts, when challenged, to try to defend his inane comments.
I realize you think what you described is due process, but it's not. I think that's primarily because you assume Trump's guilty. Which is the primary problem at work here.
Under no fair understanding of insurrection, as a matter of law, can Trump be guilty of insurrection. The only proof is his continued legal maneuvers trying to get state election results overturned, coupled with his pressuring Pence to throw out electoral votes during the count. Right there, people like you think him guilty of something "bad" but it's not enough to get you where you want to go. So you link him to the January 6 Capitol riot/breach, but there's no evidence other that he was knowledgeable or coordinated, countenanced, or had prior knowledge that would happen. Yet you want to make him guilty of that, Brandenburg v Ohio be damned.
All applicable law my ass. It's star chamber stuff. There was no applicable law, just your distaste for him.
I share that distaste, having never voted for the guy. But that's no reason for lawfare vendettas that destroy the rule of law. Treason is defined in the Constitution is to prevent such elastic definitions being applied to political enemies. But I guess it helps you sleep at night, believing "the law" has been followed and that you're the good guy here. No matter how many times you slam the table, it doesn't make it so. I don't care how many judges claim, in politically motivated opinions, there is overwhelming "evidence" that he's guilty--the evidence they point to doesn't support the insurrection "charge". Trump being the beneficiary of the Capitol riot doesn't make him guilty of it.
First ‘I think the court is wrong’ is not an argument against the process being due.
As to your actual substantive argument, read the DC indictment or the Colorado case. They lay out what Trump did to participate in the indictment.
indictment->Insurrection.
Congress made rebellion and/or insurrection a federal crime in 18 USC 2383 in 1948, which removed it from a civil consideration in terms of disqualification. After that point, the only legitimate disqualification has to come through a federal prosecution and conviction, period. ILYA SOMIN is wrong. He knows he is wrong. He published this hit piece just to get facetime. Why REASON would allow it is another story.
which removed it from a civil consideration in terms of disqualification.
You keep saying this. It's pure fantasy. Where did you even get it from? I'm seriously curious.
Not only did you pull something out of your ass, you're saying everyone agrees with it secretly.
Nope.
"Insurrection" was a federal crime well before the 14th Amendment was even ratified. Why do you seriously think it wasn't a federal crime before Sec. 2383 was enacted?
Your contention that its enactment in 1948 modified the 14th Amendment is equally ludicrous.
The due process argument is that you didn't need a judge being wrong, you needed a jury being wrong after a full criminal trial. THAT is why there wasn't due process. Because the process he got wasn't the process that was due.
And you have declared what is due based not on the text or precedent but on your vibes.
Your feelings are not the law.
Once more: no criminal trial is ever due unless someone is being criminally prosecuted and criminal penalties are being imposed.
"you needed a jury being wrong after a full criminal trial"
But as I understand it, this is a civil case, not a criminal case. So it doesn't require a full criminal trial, nor a jury. Is there a reason you believe otherwise?
Maddog, had Trump been charged with treason against the United States, in a federal court, you might have had even less to complain about. The standards to establish guilt of treason were elucidated at length in cases related to the Burr treason trial. Trump's conduct checked every box. Assuming you credit Chief Justice Marshall's opinions, it would not be a close decision to find Trump guilty and execute him. For prudential political reasons I would favor a lesser sentence, followed by a pardon if Trump showed contrition.
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
You have two witnesses to the same overt act? And which act was it?
Bellmore, the violent coup attempt, in all its particulars is the act. That included: organizing beforehand alternate slates of electors; threatening legal action against state election officials who resisted demands to rig voting results; encouraging access of armed rioters to the crowd on the ellipse; directing rioters to the Capitol, including rioters Trump knew were armed, and who he expected to be violent; encouraging deadly attacks by rioters on Mike Pence; watching on television for hours, with apparent satisfaction, as violence happened and Trump did nothing as commander in chief to put a stop to it, despite increasingly desperate appeals from people close to him to act.
Trump called for rioters to come to Washington. They came. Trump exhorted rioters to fight. They fought. Trump urged violence. They delivered violence. Trump reached out in real time, to direct violence already happening, to encourage an attack on Mike Pence. Attackers stalked Pence in response.
Trump watched with satisfaction, doing nothing, as all that happened, and gave up only after it became evident that his plan to prevent transfer of power was about to fail. Then Trump told the rioters to relent. And they relented.
Trump's astounding record of open attack on the transfer of power makes Benedict Arnold's betrayal look trivial and obscure by comparison. Bellmore, I think that may be why you have difficulty seeing what Trump did—much of it was blatant and public. You insist on looking for something clandestine. Nothing in the Constitution says treason must be clandestine.
Perhaps, however, as trial evidence unfolds, your appetite for clandestine betrayal will be sated by other details yet to be revealed to the public. Those may include disclosure of participation by members of Congress in Trump's violent, treasonous conspiracy to seize power. See Liz Cheney's recently published book to find basis to suppose that might happen.
Implications of Secret Service members' participation—or cooperation in a cover-up—also need further investigation and disclosure. It was not until I learned of Pence's nervous deflection of insistence that Pence evacuate in a Secret Service driven limousine that I grasped implications of what pressures Pence had already come under. Pence made distrust of the Secret Service explicit in his answer. I expect trial testimony from Pence to disclose as-yet-unrevealed details about the pressures he had been under, to explain where that distrust came from.
Now, massive gaps in records of Secret Service communications have been disclosed. Looks like there is still plenty of room to expect the clandestine conspiracy stuff you apparently require. But publicly-known evidence is already more than sufficient to justify charging Trump with treason. The Justice Department has been unwise not to do it.
Ah, so you're resting your case on taking standard political rhetoric literally, and ignoring the exhortation to protest peacefully. Gotcha.
There was no such fucking "exhortation," Brett. He used the term once, in the midst of a months long campaign inciting violence. Nobody including him thought he wanted anyone to do anything peacefully on January 6. Well, nobody except Brett Bellmore, who sees hidden shadows behind every single thing everyone in politics says or does except Donald Trump.
And, no, ranting and raving like a deranged lunatic about the election being stolen is not "standard political rhetoric."
MaddogEngineer, disqualification from holding future office under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is not a criminal penalty, for the reasons I have outlined downthread. The relevant question is not, "Is he guilty?"; the question is "Did he do it or not?" Those are distinct inquiries -- there is a reason that Fred Goldman is the only white man over the age of 40 to be awarded a Heisman Trophy.
The preeminent SCOTUS decision on analyzing what process is due in a given situation is probably Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U.S. 319 (1976). There the Court opined that the fundamental requirement of due process is the opportunity to be heard “at a meaningful time and in a meaningful manner.” 424 U.S. at 333, quoting Armstrong v. Manzo, 380 U.S. 545, 552 (1965).
I dentification of the specific dictates of due process generally requires consideration of three distinct factors: First, the private interest that will be affected by the official action; second, the risk of an erroneous deprivation of such interest through the procedures used, and the probable value, if any, of additional or substitute procedural safeguards; and finally, the Government's interest, including the function involved and the fiscal and administrative burdens that the additional or substitute procedural requirement would entail. Mathews, 424 U.S. at 335.
The private issue at stake in the Colorado proceedings is Donald Trump's eligibility vel non to appear on the ballot as a candidate in the Republican primary election. This is not a fundamental constitutional right.
In the context of a filing fee imposed on primary election candidates, SCOUTS opined:
Bullock v. Carter, 405 U.S. 134, 142-43 (1972). Accordingly, the right to run for office is not a "fundamental" right. Plante v. Gonzales, 575 F.2d 1119, 1126 (5th Cir. 1978). Accord: Lindsay v. Bowen, 750 F.3d 1061, 1064 (9th Cir. 2014) (upholding California Secretary of State's disqualification of 27 year old presidential candidate); NAACP v. Jones, 131 F.3d 1317, 1324 (9th Cir.1997).
As I have detailed above, Trump had a plethora of procedural safeguards designed to minimize the risk of an erroneous determination of the "Did he do it or not?" question by the Colorado courts.
MaddogEngineer, what specific, additional or substitute procedural safeguards do you claim would enhance the reliability of the factfinding process in this civil lawsuit? And how would they do so? Please show your work.
Still waiting, Maddog.
If you've got bupkis, man up and say so. What specific, additional or substitute procedural safeguards do you claim would enhance the reliability of the factfinding process in this civil lawsuit? And how would they do so?
Well, "what about a jury trial?"
So you link him to the January 6 Capitol riot/breach, but there’s no evidence other that he was knowledgeable or coordinated, countenanced, or had prior knowledge that would happen.
There's a lot of evidence of all of that. It's detailed in the court opinions.
Why do you use the phrase, "guilty of insurrection"? This was not a criminal trial, so his guilt was not in question.
Yes, "treason" is discussed in the Constitution, but the the "rule of law" also extends to the 14th Amendment. I would have thought that would have been obvious to anyone. You can't just say, "ah, he wasn't convicted of treason, so the 14th Amendment does not apply."
notguilty sez:
TL,DR: Mr. Bumble is a troll, subspecies "sealion".
Mr. Bumble sealions a lot here on the VC. His one-line post asking for already-obvious information, thus wasting a lot of time by well-intentioned people to provide the information from his "just asking!" query, is a fine example of his entire posting/interaction style.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
True, he does use a more subtle form of trolling than the schmucks who obsess in graphic detail about gay sex when they really should just fire up pr0nhub ... but it's still trolling.
"Do you think that you can find judges that would hold hearings and come to those conclusions?"
Who says a judge has to decide? According to the above-linked table, there were people who were denied office by non-judicial officials with no judicial review.
State courts could easily decide that this is a political question.
TwIP, if it were judged a political question, why wouldn't that mean a state administrative official was empowered to bar ballot access for Trump without legal appeal?
Who said it wouldn't?
If you look at the chart linked in the article, people like the postmaster general kept people out of federal offices without judicial review.
That is indeed short, but it is of course not remotely what he said. There. Was. A. Hearing.
Why yes. there was a "hearing" with no due proces, no ability for Trump's team to challenge the BS "evidence" against them, no ability to provide their own evidence, and the entire thing turning on the "testimony" of an "expert" whose entire "testimony" was "it doesn't matter that Trump said going and peacefully protest. What I claim he really meant is 'go have an insurrection', and therefore that's what happened".
Does it ever bother you David, being a complete freaking lunatic?
I'm not sure about what went down in the district court, but unless you have a difference of facts, Trump's team likely didn't challenge the facts because their issues were not factual.
There was a motion to dismiss, so seems like Trumps folks were present and got a hearing
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/01/us/politics/trump-14th-amendment-case.html
Again, not liking the outcome does not mean that the process isn't due.
Does it ever bother you David, being a complete freaking lunatic?
He knows things he talks about. You....don't have that restriction, it seems. Who is the lunatic here?
You are, as always, a liar. "A hearing with no due process" doesn't even make any sense; a hearing is due process. At the hearing held in Colorado, Trump had the ability to do each of the things you claim Trump did not have the ability to do: call and cross examine witnesses and introduce evidence.
A hearing IS process. It's only "due process" if it's all the process that is due.
Greg J kvetches:
Au contraire. Greg, have you read either opinion of the Colorado courts? Trump has had, and continues to have, plenty of due process to present his side of the dispute.
I agree with you that Team Trump had (and has) no ability to challenge the evidence against them. They did not, however lack the opportunity to do so. (I am reminded of Ron White's lament: "I had the right to remain silent, but I didn't have the ability.") Hell, Trump even had the right to testify before Judge Sarah Wallace. (Cross-examining someone like Donald Trump is as much fun as a lawyer can have with clothes on.)
Actually the red states should target Democrats running for House seats in purple districts. Disqualifying Biden in a state he is certain to lose won't really cause any pain but if Democrats start being disqualified from winnable seats in the House making recapturing the House much more difficult and their tune may change.
Try it! It'll be much easier to disqualify Republicans than Democrats, in general, if it comes down to an all-out disqualification battle.
It will be equally easy except I would bet that there are more purple districts in red states than there are in blue states.
We all love a principled approach, don't we?
"Actually the red states should target Democrats running for House seats in purple districts."
But they would have to have evidence to present. So it wouldn't work.
I guarantee this guy's lips are orange.
If these are the new rules they should apply to both sides equally. Don't like the new rules? Then go back to the old rules.
Article is citing an Insurrection. What Insurrection?
By the way I have read the 157 page J6 Committee document. There was a referral of charges, and that referral has had no results.
Consider Step One: prove an Insurrection occured.
Consider Step Two: prove leadership of Step One.
Consider Step Three: prove all that were involved were indeed involved and how, considering Step Two and Step One.
Someone show the World that these Steps were considered, and that a decision was made upin these considerations, and recorded in documentation.
Example: Trump was Impeached...a document exists to substantiate this. Trump was Aquitted of said Impeachment...a document exists to substantiate this.
Interesting word: Substantiate
Likely true that section 3 does not require an actual criminal conviction (or even a charge of insurrection)
Food for thought :
The federal bribery statute, 18 U.S. Code § 201, and the fact that an officeholder (Joe Biden) need not have personally benefited in order to be guilty. Rather, if he is involved in the sale of his influence, he is guilty of bribery no matter who cashed the checks (Hunter Biden and other relatives). An officeholder found guilty of bribery can be sentenced to 15 years in prison and “disqualified from holding any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.”
But, you may say, Joe Biden has not been found guilty of bribery. True. But there is also a federal law that a makes insurrection and rebellion a crime, duplicating the language of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Donald Trump has been neither charged nor found guilty under that law, either.
Just a bunch of inconvenient truths.
The argument made by Ilya the Lesser and the CREW crazies is that 14.3 is self-executing, but those bribery statutes are not. That flies in the face of the historical evidence, but it's the distinction they make.
My only point is that Biden is equally quilty of crimes as is trump, albeit different crimes, but crimes none the less.
Biden is far worse in terms of providing aid and comfort to the enemy with the Iranian deal[s], than trump is with the insurrection. I am not arguing that trump is not guilty of involvement in an "insurrection" as broad has that term is used for disqualifying trump from the ballot, just that Biden is as bad or worse. Selective enforcement or willful blindness for partisan purposes.
Hey, how is Robert Hur doing with that classified document investigation?
The Iran deal is a policy decision. Ditto the Afghanistan withdrawal. We do not disqualify candidates for their policy decisions.
Trump trying to steal the election is not a policy decision. It is an attempt to subvert democracy. It is far, far worse than policy disagreements.
Afganistan was a major fubar. probably not giving aid an comfort to the enemy.
The Iran deals are giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
Repeating your ipse dixit conclusion does not address the argument that the Iran deal is a policy decision and policy decisions cannot be giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
Giving Iran, a state sponsor of terror whose client, Hamas, has murdered Americans in Israel (Simchat Torah pogrom) and currently holds Americans hostage in Gaza, could be seen as maladministration. It is more then just utter incompetence.
Even were your argument valid as a legal matter, I am pretty sure that time only flows in one direction, and that neither the 10/7 attack itself nor the hostage taking had happened at the time Biden made that deal with Iran.
Nor did Iran ever get its bloody hands on the money, as it turned out.
they did during the obama adminstration
A policy decision not authorized by congress to fund a state terrorist organization which is a sworn enemy of the US. In whose book is that not giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
Its also quite naive of you to believe that the Iranian nuclear deal was actually a viable means to halt Irans nuclear development program. maybe a short term pause, but definitely never approaching anything resembling a long term success.
See Queen almathea's comment. A rational, although perhaps naive, policy choice cannot be giving aid and comfort to the enemy. If it were, we would have non-stop impeachments and disqualifications.
Chamberlian's peace in our time was naive though somewhat forced by the circumstances pre WW2.
Funding a terrorist state with a few $b was not a policy decision, unless you call a program designed to provide aid and comfort to the enemy a "Policy position". (Obama started it and biden continued it).
As usual, Joe is angry because he is ignorant.
No one funded anything.
Or is he ignorant because he is angry?
Hard to say!
02:27 - Source: CNN
Washington
CNN
—
The Obama administration secretly arranged a plane delivery of $400 million in cash on the same day Iran released four American prisoners and formally implemented the nuclear deal, US officials confirmed Wednesday.
President Barack Obama approved the $400 million transfer
https://nypost.com/2023/09/12/biden-has-a-secret-illegal-deal-with-iran-that-gives-mullahs-everything-they-want/
similar "policy Choices" with obama
https://nypost.com/2023/12/12/opinion/obamas-clueless-foreign-policy-left-behind-the-chaos-we-face-today/
Are you deliberately confusing the Obama Administration with the Biden Administration?
ObviouslyNotSpam 58 seconds ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Are you deliberately confusing the Obama Administration with the Biden Administration?"
No confusion - The biden adminstration is following in the same foolish steps as the obama adminstration
Trump cut the deal with the Taliban and it is disqualifying.
Joe Biden is openly and notoriously giving aid and comfort to states that commit acts of war against the US. That's also a basis for disqualification under 14.3 -- and to adopt a leftist argument, 14.3 conspicuously does not have the same textual requirements for a treason conviction as Article III does.
openly and notoriously
aid and comfort
conspicuously
textual requirements
This is as legalish as it gets, folks!
Trump trying to steal the election is not a policy decision. It is an attempt to subvert democracy. It is far, far worse than policy disagreements.
You want to write about subversion of democracy?
https://ethicsalarms.com/2022/05/22/its-confirmation-bias-stupid/
"t was confirmation bias. It’s really as simple as that. Even though the lawyers and agents involved in the investigation could not find the smoking gun evidence they were sure was there somewhere showing that Donald Trump and his odious minions conspired with America’s enemies to steal the 2016 election from its rightful winner, Hillary Clinton, they were absolutely certain that’s what happened, and still probably believe that’s what happened. They believed it fervently before the investigation ever began, and it poisoned the objectivity and the legitimacy of their work throughout.
Every aspect of Trump’s Presidency was poisoned by confirmation bias—from the news media, from academics, from the Washington D.C. culture, from the popular culture—stretching back before he was nominated. He was a bad guy, that’s all, and everything he did or said was filtered through that jaundiced perception. It is impossible for anyone to succeed in any job, and definitely not the hardest job in the civilized world, burdened with that handicap.
People–smart people, learned people, well-intentioned people— would not accept that the man wasn’t seeking the Presidency as part of some kind of sinister plan to enrich himself and his family, nor that he brought any useful skills to the job, nor that he could have possibly won (and the fact that it was “only” an Electoral College victory was seen as proof of that, though it was not)."- Jack Marshall
Trump did not use the resources of the Justice Department to give the illusion of credibility to his claims.
That was the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton)
Jack Marshall is incredibly ill-informed. For instance, he's a self-proclaimed ethicist who's too fucking stupid to know what the word "ethics" means. For instance, Russian attempts to interfere in the 2016 election were not a "hoax," and Hillary did not "create" them. The most charitable explanation is that Marshall doesn't know the difference between the Steele dossier and Russian acts. And his "It's everyone else's fault Trump was a disaster as president because they had an obligation to be nice to him" is unmitigated bullshit.
The certainty of those suffering chronic TDS is jaw dropping. Somehow Trump survived Crossfire Hurricane, a Special Counsel investigation, and two illegitimate impeachments, where all the resources of the Justice Department and the Intelligence Community were brought to bear, the equivalent of the most well-funded and well-staffed legal colonoscopy of the last 100 years, and people still bitterly cling to the notion that Russia collusion really explains the 2016 election outcome and never mind, the Steele dossier and the shenanigans it enabled (unlawful FiSA warrants) are so inconsequential as to have never happened. Chronic TDS is sad.
Removed from Twitter by Twitter at the behest of federal authorities on January 6, 2021 about one hour after it was posted:
https://x.com/laralogan/status/1737940375430475939?s=12
I thought Reason readers were pro-1A and anti-censorship, yet some are willing to set that aside as a consequence of chronic TDS.
The entire J6 Commission was scripted out as a stage setter for precluding Trump’s candidacy — forgone conclusions backfilled with “show me the man, I’ll find you the crime” evidence. Perception is reality and when your perceptions are sourced from conglomerate ”news” lies it makes for some highly delusional perceptions.
Trump appointed Rodentstain who appointed Mueller…RussiaGate is 100% at the feet of Trump.
"The Iran deal is a policy decision. Ditto the Afghanistan withdrawal. We do not disqualify candidates for their policy decisions."
Certainly correct. If anyone else had turned over billions of dollars of military equipment to the Taliban, what would have unquestionably been Treason, but Biden was President, so for better or worse, he gets a pass.
My only point is that Biden is equally quilty of crimes as is trump, albeit different crimes, but crimes none the less.
No he isn't.
All you have is Hunter Biden cashing in on the family name (as countless politician's kids have done). You have zero evidence that Joe Biden was "involved", much less that he took any official action.
Hell, given the ridiculous standards the SCOTUS laid out for bribery in the US even if Joe Biden was involved you'd still need a specific payment for a specific action for him to be guilty!
Biden is far worse in terms of providing aid and comfort to the enemy with the Iranian deal[s], than trump is with the insurrection.
So a policy decision w.r.t. how the US deals with a belligerent nation is worse than trying to overturn the result of the election to remain in power?
Those are some very weird priorities.
'My only point is that Biden is equally quilty [sic] of crimes as is trump, albeit different crimes, but crimes none the less."
Tom for equal rights, suppose you are an Assistant United States Attorney drafting an indictment to be presented to a federal grand jury on January 22, 2025. (Assume for purposes of this hypothetical that Joe Biden then is no longer President.)
What federal statute(s) would you allege that Biden has violated? In which state and district would you present the matter to a grand jury? As to each count of the indictment, what are the underlying acts or omissions? As to each such act or omission, when and where did it occur? (Please take note of 18 U.S.C. § 3282(a).)
Have at it, Tom.
Still waiting, Tom.
The federal bribery statute, 18 U.S. Code § 201, and the fact that an officeholder (Joe Biden) need not have personally benefited in order to be guilty. Rather, if he is involved in the sale of his influence, he is guilty of bribery no matter who cashed the checks (Hunter Biden and other relatives). An officeholder found guilty of bribery can be sentenced to 15 years in prison and “disqualified from holding any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.”
What does "bribery statutes aren't self executing" mean? 18 U.S. Code § 201 explicitly defines the penalties for the crime of bribery. Moreover, Biden can be impeached and removed for bribery without being charged under the statute. However, bribery is not one of the actions that triggers 14.3 disqualification.
Those statutes disqualify someone after a conviction. The leftist argument is that no such conviction is required by 14.3, only an amorphous and inconsistent idea of "due process".
Repeating: criminal conviction isn't required for Congress to remove Biden from office for bribery.
Sure, but a conviction after impeachment is, and we're too partisan for that to succeed in any plausible case.
If there is clear evidence Biden committed bribery, he would be convicted. Trump would have been convicted by secret ballot, but too many Senators were cowards, afraid of being primaried.
And if horses had wings, monkeys would fly out of your butt!
Maybe you should stick to straight fiction and not try to write fantasy as alternate history.
Actually, bribery was made an impeachable offense before it was codified as a federal crime. A President could theoretically be removed from office for bribery irrespective of whether he had been charged or criminally convicted of the statutory offense.
They do not. You are wrong. Substantive qualifications for the Presidency are constitutionally preemptive. You can't modify them by statute.
The word "involved" is doing a lot of work, in your interpretation of Section 201. Specifically, it's substituting for the following: "directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity,..."
By all means, if Biden directly or indirectly, with corrupt purposes, "demanded" or "sought" for Hunter to receive something of value, in exchange for Biden's engaging in some kind of official action (or facilitating a fraud on the US or violating his official duties), then he'd be guilty of "bribery" under Section 201.
That's a bit more than simply being "involved" in Hunter's arranging a meet-and-greet, I think you realize.
"But there is also a federal law that a makes insurrection and rebellion a crime, duplicating the language of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Donald Trump has been neither charged nor found guilty under that law, either."
Not true, Tom. there is no duplication between the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 and 18 U.S.C. § 2383. There are significant differences.
Multiple federal criminal statutes (e.g., 18 U.S.C. §§ 2071(b), 2381, 2383) mandate disqualification from holding any office under the United States as part of the penalty. These statutes differ from the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 in multiple, material ways.
Disqualification for insurrection or rebellion under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is limited to those who had previously taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States. Prosecution under the relevant criminal statutes is not so limited.
Congress may remove a § 3 disability by a vote of two-thirds of each House. Congress has no authority to remove any part of any criminal penalty imposed by an Article III judge.
Disqualification under federal criminal statutes is limited to holding any office under the United States. Disqualification under § 3 applies to any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State.
Disqualification from office for insurrection or rebellion under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is not a criminal penalty. If it were, it could not have been applied ex post facto to ex-Confederates for acts of insurrection or rebellion prior to 1868.
I'd add that — unlike A14S3 — it's highly doubtful (I'm being charitable) that this could be constitutionally applied to the presidency. Congress can't just declare by statute someone to be ineligible.
As has come up again and again for term limits or other legislative additions to qualifications for senator or congressmen.
I have my doubts that disqualification under § 2071 could be applied to a President consistent with U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995). The essential elements of treason under § 2381 or insurrection under § 2383 arguably embrace conduct which would ipso facto constitute grounds for disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3, so that could present grounds for offensive use of collateral estoppel.
The § 3 question would not arise, however, unless someone convicted under a federal criminal statute which specifies disqualification from holding any office under the United States as a mandatory part of the sentence were to seek a state office. The judgment of conviction would make any question about eligibility for federal office moot.
Congress made rebellion and/or insurrection a federal crime in 18 USC 2383 in 1948, which removed it from a civil consideration in terms of disqualification. After that point, the only legitimate disqualification has to come through a federal prosecution and conviction, period. ILYA SOMIN is wrong. He knows he is wrong. He published this hit piece just to get facetime. Why REASON would allow it is another story.
Casey92, do you have any, you know, legal authority for your claims?
I have explained the numerous differences between disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 and 18 U.S.C. § 2383. What authority to the contrary do you have? Please show your work.
Are you going to argue that the 14th Amendment uses a different definition of insurrection?
No such argument is needed. The statute uses lots of words other than "engage."
Why don't you try reading it yourself? Then you won't look so much like an idiot.
Different definition than what? Are you under the impression that 18 U.S.C. § 2383 defines insurrection?
Insurrection under § 2383 should be defined in the trial court's instructions to the jury.
In the Colorado proceeding, the District Court carefully considered what definition of insurrection to apply, and then as finder of fact applied it to Donald Trump's conduct in light of the evidence developed at trial.
I note that the District Court found that the petitioners bore the burden of proof by a preponderance of evidence, but the evidence adduced at trial indicated by clear and convincing evidence that Trump had engaged in insurrection had the higher standard applied. Trump's brief to the Supreme Court of Colorado raised no challenge to the sufficiency of evidence, so Trump has waived or forfeited SCOTUS consideration of that issue.
The district court's definition of insurrection was wrong.
How so, and based on what legal authorit(ies)? Please show your work.
Ilya's rather superficial argument doesn't even mention section 5, and then even discuss whether Congress passing a insurrection statute, which disqualifies someone convicted of insurrection, preempts civil disqualification.
The lack of any discussion of the issue is rather telling that he doesn't think it helps his case at all.
'It's telling he didn't cover every single stupid argument I wanna make. That must mean my argument is a winner' Do you ever have luck coming in that hot?
Your don't get to assume section 5 is exhaustive. Otherwise the 13th Amendment has some problems.
And EPC jurisprudence is all wrong, I guess.
But there is also a federal law that a makes insurrection and rebellion a crime, duplicating the language of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.
No, there isn't. The language is very different. Someone guilty of insurrection under statute probably wouldn't be disqualified under Section 3. The statute is much broader.
The federal crime of insurrection, codified at 18 U.S.C. § 2383, is both broader and narrower than insurrection or rebellion referenced in the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3. Broader because § 2383 applies to all persons, not just those who had previously taken an oath to support the Constitution. Broader because disqualification under § 2383 is automatic, while under § 3 it is discretionary. Broader because disqualification under § 2383 cannot be removed by Congress. Narrower because disqualification under § 2383 applies only to offices under the United States, while § 3 disqualification applies to both state and federal offices. Narrower because disqualification under § 2383 cannot be imposed ex post facto, while the very purpose of § 3 was to impose ex post facto (civil) penalties on ex-Confederates who committed insurrection or rebellion prior to 1868.
So, Trump is a former confederate soldier - who knew?
That's literally the level of argument that the TDS brigade has, yes. Never mind that Confederates who signed a surrender or parole thereby documented their participation in an insurrection.
For about the 15th time, that's not how due process works. "A criminal conviction is required unless one's crime is 'documented'" is not a thing. Either it's required, or it isn't.
For the 16th time, neither does "partisan wackadoodles adopt crazy interpretation of one party's Congressional report as judicial fact" embody due process.
What "partisan wackadoodles" would that be? And there was no "one party's Congressional report." It is the official report of the J6 committee, which makes it the House's Congressional report, not a "party's," and of course the J6 commission itself was bipartisan.
And, of course, it was NOT bipartisan, the members all having been chosen by one party.
Bi = 2.
There were Republicans on the committee. There were Democrats on the committee. Republicans + Democrats = 1 + 1 = 2.
New math for Neosporin.
Usually I assume your comments are in good faith, but I'm starting to re-think that assumption.
Calling it "bipartisan" may be technically true but it's not true in any meaningful sense. Not only were the two Republicans on the committee hand picked because they were anti-Trumpers, the committee itself didn't seriously challenge or question any of the evidence brought before it, and didn't introduce any evidence except that supported their pre-determined narrative.
The committee wasn't even that interested in Jan 6 per se, their only actual goal was to attack Trump as much as possible.
.
They were picked because they were the only Republicans willing to serve. (Well, that's not entirely true; it was revealed during the Colorado hearings we're discussing that Ken Buck had also offered to serve, but McCarthy would not allow it.) Pelosi had picked Cheney, but Kinzinger simply stepped up after McCarthy refused to let any other Republicans serve. (To be clear, Buck could've served just as Kinzinger did, but Buck wasn't willing to, well, buck McCarthy. McCarthy couldn't legally prevent it, but he could punish any GOPer who did.)
Virtually all of the evidence elicited by the committee came from the testimony of former Trump administration officials. I'm not sure what you mean by "didn't challenge" the evidence — what did you expect them to do?
Pelosi rejected McCarthy's appointments. Ergo, it was not bipartisan. It was Nancy's show.
And it was nothing more than a show.
The "evidence" they accepted were laughable at face value.
Yeah, Trump was going to overpower a Secret Service agent to demand they drive him to the Capitol on 1/6 (which nobody outside of the "witness" has ever said happened...with said witness not being there in the first place)
No, several other Republicans were willing to serve, such as Jim Jordan, but Pelosi wouldn't allow it anyone who advocated for Trump. So the Republicans boycotted the committee because it was a sham. What do you think would happen in a trial where only the prosecution presents evidence and there is no defense?
Carefully cherry picked former officials, yes. Like Cassidy Hutchinson, even though nearly all her testimony was hearsay, and later debunked, but it made great headline fodder for CNN and SNL at the time. That was the only point.
Crazy me, I expected someone who would at least make a token effort to challenge the evidence. I mean, at a minimum, there should have been someone to say "hey we aren't giving a fair and complete picture if we play Trump's speech that day, but snip out where Trump asked the crowd to march 'peacefully and patriotically' ".
Yes, let's keep celebrating how Republicans fucked up there.
.
Pelosi rejected two of McCarthy's five suggestions (not "appointments") and accepted the other three.
That is not what that word means.
You're lying. The witness did not say it happened. The witness said that she was told that it happened. (And, for the record, her testimony stands unrefuted; all the Trumpkins who rushed to the tv cameras to call her a liar suddenly got shy about actually saying so under oath.)
.
That is false. Among the three McCarthy suggestions that Pelosi accepted was Troy Nehls, a House Freedom Caucus member and rabid MAGA who had voted against certification of Biden's election. (All three of them — Nehls, Davis, and Armstrong — voted against impeaching Trump after J6.) This was not a group of NeverTrumpers.
Her testimony was not, in fact, ever debunked. As for "carefully cherry picked," I am not sure what you think that's supposed to signify; did you expect them to depose every single Republican in the United States? If not, they had to pick, and I would hope they did so carefully. If you mean to imply that they only picked ones who were anti-Trump, that's completely and utterly false.
Or maybe they concluded that a single use of the term "peacefully" was obviously not serious and therefore presenting it would not give a fair picture.
But you know who could have brought that up if they concluded otherwise? Troy Nehls, Rodney Davis, Kelly Armstrong, and any two other GOPers except Banks and Jordan — if McCarthy hadn't mistakenly thought he was being clever and sabotaging the committee.
In other words, all the minority has to do to deny the majority the right to hold "legitimate" hearings and issue a report is to refuse to participate (or only nominate members who are themselves under investigation).
Who, uh, chose the Republicans on the committee?
Did REPUBLICANS choose them?
Pretty sure they did not.
You'd make Quisling proud.
Kinda stupid of them in hindsight, no?
.
Yes. Cheney and Kinzinger chose them, and Cheney and Kinzinger are Republicans.
Judge Wallace devoted a full 8 pages of her opinion to determining that the House January 6 Committee report is admissible under Rule 803(8)(c) of the Colorado Rules of Evidence. Have you read that part of her ruling, Brett? What in particular did she get wrong? (She considered the report for only 31 factual findings.)
The judge laughably declared that the lack of a minority report proved the report was bipartisan. And acknowledged that every member of the committee had previously expressed animus against Trump.
.
The judge did not declare that, laughably or otherwise. I don't know where you heard this talking point, but it's not true.
It's on pages 92-93 of the district decision, and page 13 of the state supreme court decision, among other places. They laughably say that the report was totally objective and fair minded.
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Opinions/2023/23SA300.pdf
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24192809/11_17_2023-final-order.pdf
I have read both decisions already, and I reviewed them before responding to Brett yesterday. And I re-reviewed the parts you just cited; neither of them say what Brett claims.
The closest thing to a dubious comment is on page 14 of the Supreme Court decision, ¶ 34, but it's dubious because it basically recites a tautology. But it doesn't undermine the underlying point, and it's not the same thing as what Brett claims.
And "the conclusion is laughable" is not an argument. The only argument Trump raised was about the makeup of the committee, and the passages you cite involve the courts rejecting his argument that this was sufficient to make the report unreliable.
Something being bipartisan doesn't make it true or unassailable.
Until McCarthy went way overboard, the Red Scare was pretty bipartisan. It's primary partisan aspect was the other party using it as a political cudgel. Not unlike the later "missile gap". Politicians will use any weapon at their disposal to discredit the other guy. Sometimes even intra-party...just look at how the MAGAdots have been attacking DeSantis.
.
Of course not. But it does make it bipartisan.
Also, it's funny how the far right suddenly abandons originalism when they don't like the outcome. Nobody said Trump was a confederate soldier. But how A14S3 was applied when it was first enacted informs us of what it was understood to mean.
Yeah, it was meant to mean, "We won, you lost, sucks to be you." Seriously, it was nothing more than that. A lot of what the North did to the South fell under that rubric.
But you haven't won, and we haven't lost, which kind of makes that meaning irrelevant. You don't get to disqualify people you don't like, you don't get to station troops in legislative chambers to force them to vote the way you want, you don't get to treat your political enemies like the losers in a civil war.
Because you haven't won a civil war yet. It sometimes seems like you're spoiling for one, though.
Nimrod, what do you think signing a surrender/parole MEANS?
If you accept a plea bargain and plead guilty, you ARE convicted...
Wrong, as always.
This question (is a criminal trial needed) comes down to if you believe there is a constitutional right to run for office (not be elected which is up to voters, but just being a candidate). If so, it’s possible this could be viewed as a sufficiently punitive sanction as to require criminal conviction. The other question is in creating 18 U.S. Code § 2383, Congress could have been exercising its 14th Amendment, section 5 “power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.” In that it specified that the means of enforcing the 14th amendment bar is through criminal conviction that results in a person “shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.” So while the 14th amendment may not require a criminal conviction, then Congress has specified the means of implementation to require such conviction.
Why does it come down to the question of a constitutional right to run for office? Why doesn't it instead come down to the right of the sovereign people to elect who they choose, for example?
Do the sovereign people have the right to elect a 28 year old? Or a naturalized citizen?
Maybe, but under the current Constitution they wouldn't be allowed to serve.
Neither does an insurrectionist. That's exactly the point.
How Section 3 is enforced relies on Congress, which was granted the power by Section 5 to enforce Section 3 and the other sections.
If Congress gave the military power to depose a disqualified President, we'd have to live with that until the law's changed. But they didn't. It seems only removal following impeachmnent is the only legal method to disqualify Brandon for aiding and comforting the Taliban.
In the case of its own members, Congress doesn't need ANY adjudication, or even Section 3. Article 1 gave them the unqualified power to decide the qualifications of their own members.
Similarly for appointed positions.
For the Presidency, though? They NEED Section 3, so the question of due process does arise.
Why do you think Section 3 requires due process but Article I doesn't?
In the case of Article 1, the due process IS the vote by the chamber. Due process is trivially satisfied by voting.
In order to violate due process they'd have to not actually have held the vote, or lacked a quorum at the time. Given the courts' reluctance to look at evidence of that sort, (The enrolled bill doctrine.) it would be an uphill fight getting them to enforce due process even if it had been denied.
Ok, if you think a simple vote counts as due process, surely a multi-day adversarial trial conuts.
Now all that's needed is an insurrectionist, which would require that there had been an insurrection.
That's what I would do if I was a judge in such a case: Hold that there has not been an insurrection in the sense that that word is used in section 3. But that's an entirely separate issue from the questions discussed in the OP.
This is the third most likely outcome IMO.
Age and citizenship are objective facts. Being an insurrectionist is a matter of opinion. I am coming around to the position that to be disqualified under 14.3, it should be very clear the person engaged in an insurrection (perhaps beyond a reasonable doubt) because I agree with Michael P (egads!) the harm done to the people (rather than the candidate, which is all Ilya discusses) is enough to justify a high standard.
That being said, Trump should have been impeached, convicted and disqualified from running again for committing the High Crime of trying to steal an election.
The House did impeach Donald Trump a second time over that, and the Senate acquitted him. A conviction on such charges either by the Senate (where I think disqualification from office would follow if the votes were there to convict) or in a federal court would firmly establish his disqualification -- and do so nationwide, rather than merely at a state level.
Writing about trying to steal an election...
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
"Barack Obama and Joe Biden actively participated in the scheme, as McCarthy’s last paragraph above reminds us. This was genuinely impeachable conduct, far, far worse than the contrived grounds for Trump’s two impeachments."- Jack Marshall
People care about the Durham report even less than the Muller report.
The Colorado court found that as a matter of **FACT** that Trump was an insurrectionist. That's what trial courts do. Saying "Well, that's just, like, your *opinion*, man" doesn't change the fact that the court has established it as fact.
I'd encourage anyone who's advancing the argument that sec. 3 requires a criminal conviction to read the dissent by the Chief Justice of the Colorado Supreme Court. He advocated for that position, while providing zero analysis of why it would be a thing according to existing law or established precedence.
The finding of fact depended on both the definition of engaging in an insurrection and the burden of proof. I am arguing it may not be so clear if you have a different definition or a higher burden of proof.
So if things were different, things would be different?
Yes. And when one of the predicate things is a matter of opinion, then whether Trump engaged in an insurrection is a matter of opinion.
how does a State Court rule on the Federal Constitution?
State courts rule on the federal constitution every single day. What are you talking about? If you're arrested and the cops search your house, and you contend the search violated the 4th/14th amendments, the state court rules on that federal constitutional argument.
Age and citizenship are objective facts. Being an insurrectionist is a matter of opinion.
Haha no. Being an insurrectionist is also an objective, factual question. An opinion is like, I like the taste of MadDog 20/20.
Being an insurrectionist is usually a more difficult question than age or citizenship, but not always. Imagine a candidate with a dodgy birth cirtificate who you believed was in fact born in Kenya. How would you go about adjudicating that?
Because the people choose the limits of what is allowed through the constitution and voting. So if there is a valid limit in the constitution, it’s only there because the sovereign people already decided. But if the constitution gave a right to run for office to the individual (after they were 35 for the presidency), then the stripping them of that right for wrongdoing would normally require a criminal conviction. That is what criminal punishments are, stripping a person of otherwise protected rights.
DW, relevantly, you will search in vain for any constitutional evidence of a right to run for office. The founders' view on that was stated explicitly—it was a gift of office, bestowed jointly by the sovereign People acting at pleasure, and without constraint. No rights involved. Not even for the People themselves. What they exercised then, and continue to exercise now, is power, not rights.
Due process is not a concern, eh?
Where did you get that from?
I have described in detail upthread the many procedural safeguards that Donald Trump is and has been afforded in the Colorado disqualification proceeding. What additional process do you claim that Trump is due, Damikesc? Please be specific.
Still waiting, Damikesc. Don't keep us in suspense.
The evidence used by the court was laughable on its face.
Again, you will deeply dislike the rules you are setting up here. Do not whine when they are used in ways you do not support.
All of a sudden you want to talk about evidence, not due process...
And then a nice threat to top it off. Classy.
damikesc, I plan to urge rules I will like. They will disempower cranks like you who threaten to trash American constitutionalism to advantage tribal warfare. But they will do it while leaving you just as free as you are now to say whatever you want, whenever you want. Look forward to it.
"The evidence used by the court was laughable on its face."
If that were so, it would have been laughed out of court, wouldn't it? And yet, the exact opposite happened. Why is that?
"Again, you will deeply dislike the rules you are setting up here."
Why not? If there is objective evidence of something, due process is given, and a ruling is issued by the relevant court, where's the problem? It's called "the rule of law" and it is a very good thing.
"Do not whine when they are used in ways you do not support."
The thing about the rule of law is that it doesn't care whether you support the outcome or not. The goal is equal protection under, and application of, the law to all people. I've never been concerned about the application of the rule of law.
Bad laws and decisions eventually get addressed. For example, Dobbs has led to terrible things, but I have faith that they will eventually be rectified.
This question (is a criminal trial needed) comes down to if you believe there is a constitutional right to run for office (not be elected which is up to voters, but just being a candidate).
It does not come down to that. But if it did, there is no such right. Many people have been pre-disqualified for offices by constitutional decrees from the jointly sovereign People.
Okay, but the other day you said the law requires ___ regardless of subjective considerations like the destabilizing effect of undemocratically removing a popular candidate from the ballot. Now you seem to be saying it is indeed subjective and that's why it's okay. No conviction needed, disqualification is a just a consolation prize in lieu of prosecution.
Which is it? If the goal is to prevent a clear and present danger, then there's a substantial argument to be had about whether Trump being on the ballot is such. He's one man, and even if 40%-ish of the population wants to vote for him, an arguably even bigger percentage are motivated to vote against him. Even for an obvious houseplant like Joe Biden. With ex-Confederates, there were hundreds or thousands who were virtually guaranteed to win local and statewide elections if allowed to run. This is an issue for the voters to settle, not the courts.
There is no reason to suppose that if this is not an issue for the courts to settle that means it is up to the voters. It could be up to state administrative officials doing their usual jobs vetting candidates' qualifications for office.
Note also, there is a powerful reason not to put it before the voters in a presidential election. You could get a minority result in favor of a candidate who had been declared ineligible constitutionally by a super-majority ratified constitutional decree.
you are falsely using the national populare vote.
Ignoring the fact, that STATES have sovereign rights in the Presidential election.
States is the reason Trump was not convicted of Insurrection. A battle between the Peoples House. and The States Senate.
In the impeachment the House and Senate voiced the peoples opinion.
The judiciary should still honor that process
"There is a separate argument about how much civil due process is needed before someone can be disqualified under Section 3. In my view, the trial Colorado held is more than enough."
So what is enough? A determination by a secretary of state? Or maybe an elector? Congress when they certify the election?
Is the presidency "property" under the 14th amendment? The OP implies that it's not. Maybe there's no due process required at all.
And what's the burden of proof? The text of section 3 implies that the candidate has to prove that the has not engaged in insurrection, perhaps beyond a reasonable doubt.
The text of § 3 is silent as to the burden of proof. The District Court in Colorado, applying state law, opined that the burden of proof by a preponderance of evidence is on the petitioners seeking disqualification. She also opined that the proof in the instant case would meet the higher threshold of clear and convincing evidence if it were applicable. The Colorado Supreme Court affirmed as to these points.
Trump's Supreme Court brief in Colorado did not challenge the sufficiency of evidence that he engaged in insurrection.
"The text of § 3 is silent as to the burden of proof."
Sure, but as I said, the text strongly implies that the candidate has to prove his fitness for office beyond a reasonable doubt. Maybe Colorado had made its decision, but given the text, other courts should impose a higher standard.
"Trump’s Supreme Court brief in Colorado did not challenge the sufficiency of evidence that he engaged in insurrection."
Nor have I.
Well... if the candidate has to prove their qualifications beyond a reasonable doubt, every state should pull Trump from the ballot immediately! He hasn't come anywhere close to that showing.
"Trump’s Supreme Court brief in Colorado did not challenge the sufficiency of evidence that he engaged in insurrection."
Are we doing guilty until proven innocent now? (I think we are, as I already addressed above.)
I realize you guys want to make it a civil procedure where criminal due process protections don't apply. That's preposterous, because it's just weaponizing the concept of disqualification. Find a sympathetic judge, establish a "factual" record that appeal courts aren't allowed to impugn...profit!
By failing to challenge sufficiency of evidence in the Colorado Supreme Court, Donald Trump has waived or forfeited SCOTUS consideration of insufficiency.
Supreme Court Rule (1)(g)(i) requires that any petition for certiorari contain:
This is a jurisdictional prerequisite, applicable to both civil and criminal cases. SCOTUS here lacks jurisdiction to consider any claim of evidentiary insufficiency.
That doesn't at all sound right to me. By failing to challenge it Trump may have forfeited or waived the issue, but that is not jurisdictional.
The relevant language of Rule (1)(g)(i) is "so as to show that the federal question was timely and properly raised and that this Court has jurisdiction to review the judgment on a writ of certiorari." The conjunctive connector is significant -- both criteria must be met.
Also, Rule 14(a)(1) specifies that "Only the questions set out in the petition, or fairly included therein, will be considered by the Court."
That should be Rule 14(1)(g)(i).
.
Yes, but that cuts against your position. Those are indeed two separate criteria. Your interpretation would collapse them into one: that timely raising it is required for jurisdiction.
No, detailing in a cert petition how a particular issue was raised and resolved (or not) at every stage below is essential to show: (1) that the federal question was timely and properly raised and (2) that [the Supreme] Court has jurisdiction to review the judgment on a writ of certiorari.”
If (1) subsumes (2), then the reference to Supreme Court jurisdiction is mere surplusage.
There have to be at least 200 million people in the U. S. who are native born citizens, over 35 years old, never broke an oath to defend the constitution, and never tried to overturn a lawful election. Can't y'all pick one of them as your candidate for prez?
Trump combines low-brow entertainment value with a sheer audacity to say whatever he needs to, to survive the media cycle, as well as playing rhetorical footsie with extremism that permits his supporters to masturbate over the idea of his leading a violent, revanchist putsch. That's just hard to replicate.
DeSantis is not, of course, very entertaining; both DeSantis and Vivek have this problem of trying to build extremist positions into a coherent policy platform; and the other candidates on offer do not do much better.
Really, a lot of Trump's appeal for his supporters comes from the fact that he is so loathed by Democrats and the left. If the media just treated him like the joke he is, a lot of his supporters would get bored and move on. They're not very bright.
"Really, a lot of Trump’s appeal for his supporters comes from the fact that he is so loathed by Democrats and the left."
Correct. I will vote for the person who the worst people in the world are trying to do everything in their power (and not in their power) to prevent me from voting for. It's as simple as that.
I will vote for the person who the worst people in the world are trying to do everything in their power (and not in their power) to prevent me from voting for.
Like I said, you're not very bright.
If the media just treated him like the joke he is, a lot of his supporters would get bored and move on. They’re not very bright.
Exactly. Afghanistan and covid had mostly pushed Trump out of the daily news cycle for the first time since 2015. Then 2022 happened. "Why are we revitalizing Trump's media mindshare?"
I doubt the numbers are as high as you think. By leftist logic, some 81 million people support pre-emptive overturning of a legitimate election result.
And most of the rest are not crazy enough to expose themselves that much to the pussy hat people, the Hams sympathizers, or the "punch a Nazi and btw everyone else are Nazis" crowd.
PETA?
Can you get over the idea that you're entitled to tell other people, "No. Pick somebody else."? Do you have even the tiniest notion how offensive it is?
Pick your own candidate, don't tell other people who they're allowed to pick.
Can you get over the idea that you’re entitled to tell other people, “No. Pick somebody else.”? Do you have even the tiniest notion how offensive it is?
Whatsamatta, snowflake? Can't handle people complaining over your poor judgment? Isn't losing an election exactly that?
Howzabout: "Hey, fella, maybe if you chose some kinda respectable guy who showed some respect for the rule of law or democracy, and basic mental competence, you'd have my vote, instead of forcing me to vote for the otha guy."
Biden doesn't have any respect for the rule of law, or democracy.
He does have respect though for HIV poz men who erupt inside other men.
"Do you have even the tiniest notion how offensive it is?"
They're acting as though democracy itself is abhorrent, that they don't WANT your vote. Reminds me of HilDog's "basket of deplorables" comment.
You're the one defending a candidate who tried to overturn an election he lost, says he wants to be a dictator, wants his opponents to rot in hell, and plans to do a loyalty purge of the federal government.
You hate democracy.
I want the Supreme Court to keep Trump on the ballot, even if I think the legal case to keep him off is legit.
Remind me - what has Trump, et al., been saying about far-left members of the Democratic party? What is he saying that indicates that he wants their vote?
Can you get over the idea you're entitled to tell other people 'No, you schools cannot be segregated.' Do you have even the tiniest notion how offensive it is?
Pick your own schools, don't tell other people where they're allowed to send their children.
============
This is the issue with rolling populism-not-law, Brett. It's actually just full on discarding the law.
You're lawless now as you get more and more manic in your defense of Trump.
Congrats.
There has always been something bizarre about paying lip service to banning double jeopardy while allowing duplicate state and federal prosecutions, or allow duplicate criminal and civil prosecutions. The idea that you need two separate trials, and one can find you guilty while the other finds you innocent, is entirely contrary to any notion of justice.
And then to say, well, let's just skip the criminal part altogether, go straight to the sloppy evidence civil trial, only shows how bankrupt the concept is.
Don't worry. Civil trials are not about serious stuff, like a week in jail, just unimportant stuff like millions in punitive damage, or banning a political opponent from a presidential ballot.
Your general whinge about the rule of law as currently practiced is noted.
I, too, have an issue with how "double jeopardy" is applied in the US, but that is part of the US legal system, and is equally applicable to all. Make a serious proposal to eliminate the issue and I will support it, but it has nothing to do with what Trump is enduring now.
Civil proceedings are easily differentiated from criminal ones. The US doesn't even blur the line between them, as is done in other common law jurisdictions like the UK, where it is possible to bring "private prosecutions", which impose criminal penalties.
Section 3 of the 14th Amendment clearly does not impose criminal penalties on anyone. What penalties it does impose can simply be lifted by Congress for no reason whatsoever. I suspect your opposition to 14th Amendment disqualification is somehow related to whom it may affect.
"paying lip service to banning double jeopardy while allowing duplicate state and federal prosecutions"
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the state vs. federal thing boils down to the fact that they are different statutes with different language. It may also include issues of dual sovereignty, but I'm almost certain that double jeopardy requires two prosecutions for the same statute, not just the same series of actions by the accused.
"or allow duplicate criminal and civil prosecutions"
Still not a lawyer, but I believe that this is due to the fact that civil cases can be brought by citizens, so those wouldn't be actions by the state. Double jeopardy requires state action, not private action.
Lawyers? Anyone able to help me understand the limits to double jeopardy? Am I on the right track?
Because due process is not owed to anybody Ilya disapproves of.
More precisely, he believes the only process due to Donald Trump is an accusation being made.
Trump got due process.
Yes, we know you believe Nineteen Eighty Four was an instruction manual, you don't need to behavior the point.
Ipse dixit what due process is not even an argument.
"Because due process is not owed to anybody Ilya disapproves of"
Didn't this case go to not one, but two courts? And didn't Trump and his lawyers have the opportunity to dispute everything during the whole process?
Why wouldn't that be "due process" in your mind?
"We've committed this abuse in other contexts, therefore we can commit it here, too." That's essentially your argument; That it's not abusive because similar things have been done before. But, what if they're just evidence that our legal system is often abusive?
Is that any reason to expand on the abuses?
"None of the ex-Confederates who were adjudged disqualified during Reconstruction had ever been convicted of any crimes related to their roles in the Civil War."
Just because the winning side in a war does something to the losing side, doesn't mean it's something you should lightly do when you haven't just won a war. Do you not grasp that? You can't treat your fellow citizens like the beaten down side in a civil war, if you haven't HAD a civil war and beaten them down! That's the sort of thing civil wars get started over!
You're completely ignoring the prudential argument against doing this. Just blowing it off totally. Have you ever stopped for a moment to think about how this looks to Trump's supporters, and how they'll react to such a casual dismissal? And to the glaring double standard, after years of massive riots, autonomous zones, attacks on federal court houses, yes, even breakins at the Capitol, and never a Section 3 invocation?
But let's set that aside, and look at those cases.
We have 3 state officers disqualified from state office. To be sure, states are entitled to set the qualifications for state office, but the Presidency is not a state office. So, let's concede that states can do this under state law, don't even need Section 3 as an excuse; They have no relevance to federal positions.
We have US Rep Vance. He was placed on the ballot, votes for him were counted, he was the winner, and then the US Senate refused to seat him under it's Article 1 power of each House to determine the qualifications of its own members. That pre-existing power was not dependent on Section 3, as an article 1 power did not require any court action. The only basis it needed was a vote.
Likewise US rep Christy, and US Rep Berger. Article 1 means Congress didn't NEED the courts' input, though in Berger's case they had it, and relented when his conviction was overturned.
We have a local postmaster. The postmaster General could remove him for any reason, even without Section 3. Is that not so?
Then we finally have County Commissioner Griffin, last year. Disqualified as a consequence of a criminal conviction, albeit not one of the Section 3 listed offenses. But, again, we're back to state positions, governed by state law.
I put it to you that none of these cases establish that Section 3 can be applied to the Presidency without a conviction for a relevant offence. They're either state cases, or the exercise of powers that existed independent of Section 3.
.
As you always say in every other context: if you don't like it, amend the constitution. Stop trying to pretend it says something it doesn't say.
That's because he's making a legal argument. And legal arguments and prudential ones are different things.
So am I when I say Brandon's disqualified.
I think several people already pointed out why that isn't the case. You didn't have a response, as I recall.
In other words, you admit the legal system we have is not prudential, not geared to justice, and only exists to keep the government in control.
Laws not men, Alphabet.
Excuses, not justice. Hitler's Enabling Act was law. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, they were all law.
Hitlers enabling act was law. Don’t Goodwin yourself into vibes based policy.
American anti-fascists screaming Jews should be pushed into the sea thread thataway. ---->
Tu quoque is a fallacy.
Why are you trying to change the subject?
Do you not grasp that? You can’t treat your fellow citizens like the beaten down side in a civil war, if you haven’t HAD a civil war and beaten them down!
WTF are you talking about?
Those who were disqualified after the Civil War were not abused or mistreated. In fact, much of their treatment was generous. (Don't talk to me about the "evils" of Reconstruction. I heard all those lies in school.)
And if Trump is disqualified no fellow citizens are being abused. Trump will be treated as insurrectionists are supposed to be treated per the Constitution.
I know you hate the Reconstruction Amendments, more shame on you, but they are there nonetheless.
"WTF are you talking about?"
It's not complicated: During and after the Civil war, the North did a shitload of stuff to the South that you could only get away with in the context of being the winning side of a civil war.
They stationed troops in legislative chambers, and had them dictate how the legislators would vote.
They closed opposition newspapers, threw the editors in jail, without a trial, despite being in areas where the courts were functioning.
And, they disqualified people from public office without affording them criminal trials, or indeed trials of any sort. In fact, they started doing that BEFORE the 14th amendment was even written!
So, you want to apply that last civil war precedent. The rest of them you'll leave on the shelf... for now. But the truth is they all rested on the same legal basis: "We're the winners, shut up or we'll shoot you."
And, as I say, you're not the winners today, so stop acting like you are, and everybody is going to roll over and play dead out of mortal fear that you'll sic the Army on them if they don't.
This kind of ultra-formalist, and screw whether you're pissing off half the nation, law that Somin is practicing here is suicidally bad law. The Civil war precedents should remain interned with the Civil war, for the sake of civic peace.
Try Trump for the crime of insurrection, and unless you can convict him, drop the matter.
'And, as I say, you’re not the winners today, so stop acting like you are, and everybody is going to roll over and play dead out of mortal fear that you’ll sic the Army on them if they don’t.'
Hang on, Trump lost and acted like he hadn't, and now you're mad everyone isn't rollng over and letting him get away with it *even though* he's threatening to set the Army on them.
'and screw whether you’re pissing off half the nation'
You voted for Trump precisely because he pissed off more than half the nation and support him even though he tried to deprive more than half the nation of their democratic choice for president; how come nobody cares about how pissed of they are?
'drop the matter.'
or else.
Who, exactly, are you conversing with?
In any case, the 14th Amendment exists, and therefore the courts must interpret it. They cannot simply wish it away, like countless lefties would rather do with the "embarrassing" 2nd Amendment. A plain, but informed, reading of the 14th Amendment suggests that it disqualifies from holding subsequent office any oath-taker who has engaged in insurrection.
If the Supreme Court somehow agrees that Trump is disqualified, will you accept their decision? Yes or no.
"Have you ever stopped for a moment to think about how this looks to Trump’s supporters, and how they’ll react to such a casual dismissal?"
Funny thing about the law, it doesn't care if its application makes you angry. That's literally the difference between living with the rule of law and living without it. People get angry when they lose or are held to account for their misdeeds. It doesn't make a speck of difference, nor should it.
From everything I've read here, the "this is legally sound" side of the argument is based on precedent, law, and the Constitution. The "Trump is getting screwed" side seems to just say, "We don't like the law or the Constitution. It makes us angry. You wouldn't like us when we're angry, so ignore the Constitution and the law. Or you'll regret it."
"I put it to you that none of these cases establish that Section 3 can be applied to the Presidency without a conviction for a relevant offence."
And I put it to you that section 3 doesn't require a conviction. The text doesn't make that a prerequisite. Are you a "living Constitution" guy?
Looks like Cuntala's disqualified too!
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1267555018128965643
"The same reasoning applies to Trump."
---
Correction: This reasoning only applies to Trump.
This site has endorsed so many "Trump exception" legal theories over the past few years, that it is no longer a trustworthy site for a non-partisan review of legal decisions.
Most Reason writer's position on any court opinion or law is dependent whether it can be used to impeach Trump, jail Trump, remove Trump, or keep Trump off the 2024 Presidential ballot. If applied against a President or candidate of their choice, their position will immediately reverse.
"This site has endorsed so many “Trump exception” legal theories over the past few years"
This site has endorsed a lot legal theories and argued that there is no "Trump exception". That's a very different thing.
Remember, Trump is the one claiming he has absolute immunity. That's a hell of an exception.
Summary: Since you can sue someone not convicted, politically motivated partisans can knock opponents off the ballot to git 'im in initiative #37, when 1-36 have failed over 7 years, and 38 and 39 are still in progress as plan Bs.
Got it.
He needs to lose so tanks won't roll through Europe while he stands with a checkered flag somewhere west of Poland. But we don't need this amply demonstrated pattern of using government against political opponents, either.
Will Brandon be kicked off the ballot?
Even if he is, he will still win if the democrats say so.
Used to be, Democrats only voted from the grave. They may break new ground with Biden, so to speak.
Wow, you sure think Democrats are all-powerful. It's really weird.
No,.we need to amplify the idea that a losing president can try to stay in power through fraud, corruption and violence.
Are you willing to support the 14th Amendment to the Constitution if the US Supreme Court holds that it disqualifies Trump from holding federal office? Yes or no.
Irony is pretty much dead in the Trump era (or at least in the ICU) but aren't all the MAGA and Trumpets here in enthusiastic support of:
1) denying citizenship and/or legal asylum to whole classes of people without due process? They just don't like them.
2) demanded that Obama be disqualified on any ballot over the totally made-up birther nonsense? Lots of due process there, right?
3) Was of the opinion that Hillary "should not be allowed to run" because something something e-mail server.
4) Wanted Ted Cruz disqualified from ballots for being, well, Ted Cruz. Actually I think he was on to something there, but it has nothing to do with due process.
Reference: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/12/20/trump-refrain-disqualification-thee-not-me/
The term "double standard" just seems inadequate to describe the MAGA habit of super-selective legal opinions on things. I would call it Calvinball but even that doesn't work because in Calvinball at least the two sides respect each other. Republicans are about two levels below that.
Yes, your comment shows how well you respect the other side.
No, no, no and no.
Unless you think -- apparently like Ilya the Lesser -- that random state courts should be allowed to find that Obama's Hawaii birth certificate was fraudulent. Maybe you do -- after all, the original bitters were Hillary Clinton supporters.
.
The constitution says that states are required to give full faith & credit to the records of every other state, so no.
Unless you think — apparently like Ilya the Lesser — that random state courts should be allowed to find that Obama’s Hawaii birth certificate was fraudulent. Maybe you do — after all, the original bitters were Hillary Clinton supporters.
They would certainly have been "allowed" to find that. And then it would have been appealed and overturned.
As for your "original bitters", that was just some Clinton operative tossing dirt to a reporter (hardly unusual). But it was the GOP that really dove in after it.
1) "citizenship" Disagreeing with a relatively vague SCOTUS opinion is not "denying without due process", it is asking SCOTUS to revisit their opinion as it applies to illegal immigrants, since the original plaintiff was actually born to legal immigrants in the US
1) "asylum" Definition is a political matter. Democrats are currently accepting any claim of asylum with no qualifications
2) Obama started the kerfuffle by claiming that he was born in Kenya when he wrote his book, presumably because it made it more saleable than "born to some middle class white chick in Hawaii". Hillary continued the kerfuffle by claiming that Obama was ineligible to run. Obama then dragged out the kerfuffle by refusing to release his birth certificate for a significant length of time, probably because he was getting good press about the "idiotic R idea that he wasn't eligible".
3) Hilary may have been eligible to run, but she was guilty of a federal crime and should have been charged, just like other people who did similar things and are currently either rotting in jail or who have been dismissed from government service with prejudice. Note that Trump chose not to prosecute after he became P because he felt that it wouldn't look good to be prosecuting political opponents, unlike some other President.
4)IIRC the question about Ted Cruz was that he was born in Canada to American parents. The question revolves around definition of Natural Born Citizen. Again iirc, most legal scholars came down on the side of "NBC means American when born", which you are if born to an American parent anywhere in the world, not "born on the territory of the US".
Obama did no such thing. (In fact, there wasn't even a book to be saleable! Years later he did write a book.)
It was actually his publicist, flacking him for speaking gigs, as I recall.
Natural born citizens are citizens at birth. Constitutionally, either born on US territory regardless of parents, (Except if the parents are foreign diplomatic personnel.) Or abroad per the terms of statutes in effect at the time.
John McCain was born in the Panama Canal zone, and not a citizen per the law in effect at the time he was born. A few months later the law was changed with purported retroactive effect, but it's very dubious that NBC status can be retroactive.
Obama was born in Hawaii. If he had not been, per the law at the time he would not have been a citizen, because his mother, though a citizen, had not spent enough time on US soil to pass on her citizenship by the then applicable law.
Cruz was born in Canada, both parents citizens, and himself a citizen at birth by existing law.
The only one of them constitutionally disqualified was McCain, and people were pointing it out at the time.
.
Sort of, but not exactly. It was an intern at his literary agency, publishing a booklet promoting all of their clients. Obama was included based on a book that he was thinking of publishing.
Breitbart has a copy of the booklet, printing excerpts from it; it includes authors, politicians, athletes, and of course the literary giants New Kids on the Block.
ABC passes along a comment from the person who wrote it:
" It was an intern at his literary agency, publishing a booklet promoting all of their clients. Obama was included based on a book that he was thinking of publishing."
Yup, thanks for refreshing my memory.
I agree that this was pretty thin gruel for disqualifying a Presidential candidate. Maybe enough to justify a hearing on the merits, which would have swiftly dismissed the notion.
As I said, the only Presidential candidate in history who DID have a NBC clause problem was McCain.
'I agree that this was pretty thin gruel'
Rock solid proof by Republican standards. Not much has changed there.
This all comes down to creating a power for any executive branch official to deny a government benefit, or to refuse to complete a government function with respect to, any party that this government official deems unworthy. This will result in chaos and lawlessness.
Bill Clinton was prosecuted - some say persecuted - by his opposing party while in office. Lots of energy, outrage, smoke-as-fire, etc.
A lot like all the things the right claims is going on with Trump.
Now, the left during Clinton never said 'well now we're going to make up bullshit to charge every Republican President out of revenge' and they never said 'Clinton gets a third term since you stole his second from him' and they never said 'impeach him and we will have a Civil War 2.'
And after Clinton left office, indeed, future Presidents were not given the Clinton treatment.
Compare and contrast the threats, whining, revenge over principles, etc. we are getting these days.
The GOP wants to point left, but there is no equivalent. To Trump, to their own lack of principle, to the posters on here.
Minor point you forgot to mention. Clinton admitted to perjury, subornation of perjury and witness tampering. Feel free to cite Trump's admission of felonies.
The purpose of the perjury was to defeat a sexual harassment lawsuit by Paula Jones.
Really? Because it did not occur in the Paula Jones lawsuit.
Huh? Yes it did. Well, part of it did.
You are correct.
IIRC, U. S. District Judge Susan Webber Wright found Bill Clinton in contempt for perjury during his deposition in Paula Hound Dog's lawsuit. He was impeached (and acquitted) for perjury before the grand jury. The House Judiciary Committee approved a separate article of impeachment for the deposition testimony, but the full House voted no on that charge.
That's a lot different than "Clinton admitted to perjury, subornation of perjury and witness tampering". I wonder why the MAGA guy made such an obvious mistake?
What is really funny about what occurred is that it was Bill Clinton who signed the law that gave Paula Jones's attorneys the right to ask about his past sexual history. He signed it in a great big Rose Garden ceremony and even used a separate pen for each letter ( that way they could give the pens out as souvenirs).
Indeed. He was a member of a select club: The several hundred people world wide with no standing to complain about being forced in court to testify about their sex lives. Anybody else? Complain away. If you voted for or signed the law? Suck it up and answer the damned question.
Doing wonders for the point I'm making about the double standards between Clinton and Trump.
I don't see how. Did Trump sign with great ceremony some law that's presently blowing up in his face? Not so's I can tell.
And, remember, Clinton DID commit and suborn perjury. Had government employees suborning it, and going out collecting evidence to destroy. (If he'd gotten that blue dress, you'd be claiming the whole affair was a lie.)
You can argue that it wasn't perjury concerning a material fact, despite the law he so proudly signed, but it damned well WAS perjury. He was guilty as hell.
Brett, materiality is a sine qua non of federal perjury.
Why the does Clinton signing the law matter?
Answer: It does not.
You're really making stuff up hard at this point.
You don't see how signing that forces people to testify about their sex lives reduces your standing to complain about being forced to testify about your sex life?
You mean other than the fact that he admitted on national television that he stole the classified material at issue in the Florida prosecution?
So only a confession counts as sufficient evidence?
I seem to remember a quote from another Russian defender of freedom. Show me the man and I'll show your the crime. He too, had the backing of the elites.
Ilya,
I’m not sure that this article actually presents the strongest argument as to why a conviction is needed. Civil actions can certainly have a lower burden of proof than criminal cases, and in the abstract, almost always do.
But I think the better argument is that Congress under Section 5 of the 14th Amendment made a criminal conviction under 18 USC 2383 the process for disqualification. Congress repealed the previous Quo Warranto statute and enacted 18 USC 2383 in the same legislation and 18 USC 2383 has the office disqualification upon conviction.
Surely you would agree that under Section 15 of the 14th Amendment, Congress would have the power to make disqualification under Section 3 only occur upon criminal conviction, even if it would not have been required to use that standard. So the real question isn’t whether insurrection/rebellion COULD have a lower standard of proof, but whether Congress imposed the criminal conviction requirement by legislation.
Congress indeed the power to make disqualification under Section 3 only occur upon criminal conviction. Congress, however, has not done so.
I have explained upthread numerous differences between disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 and disqualification imposed by an Article III judge as part of a judgment of criminal conviction pursuant to a statute such as 18 U.S.C. § 2383. As the Sesame Street jingle goes, one of these things is not like the others.
If disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is a criminal penalty, the ex post facto clauses would have precluded application thereof to ex-Confederates whose acts of rebellion or insurrection occurred prior to 1868. That would have been an absurd result that the drafters could not have intended.
That argument is quite bad. I’mexpecting that there is a much better argument.
The 1870 Enforcement Act had two options. A civil quo warranto for removing confederates and a criminal provision for knowingly holding office as a disqualified person. All well and good, and the latter even gives evidence of self-execution.
But then 1948 comes around and Congress repeals the civil quo warranto and enacts 2383 for criminal rebellion and insurrection. No ex post facto problem as the confederates are all dead or really stinking old (assume 16 in 1865 = 99 years old). Does Congress repealing the civil quo warranto and enacting the 2383 mean that 2383 is the appropriate legislation enacted by congress under Section 5 of the 14th Amendment. Your assumption that “Congress has not done so” assumes over the key question and the rest of your analysis is non-responsive.
"Does Congress repealing the civil quo warranto and enacting the 2383 mean that 2383 is the appropriate legislation enacted by congress under Section 5 of the 14th Amendment."
Uh, no. As I have explained in detail upthread, disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 and disqualification as part of the judgment of criminal conviction imposed by an Article III court are separate and distinct. You have conspicuously furnished no authority to the contrary.
I’ve read your upstream comments, you do not provide any argument for why 2383 is not the current enabling provision of Section 3, you just state as a matter-of-fact that it is not. Conceivably, you could cite City of Boerne or Katzenbach for the proposition that Congress does not have the power to expand (or by implication, retract) the scope of the 14th Amendment, and therefore Congress actually doesn’t have the authority to set the definition of insurrection/rebellion or the process for adjudication, but I don’t understand you to be making that argument as you have said in effect “they could do that, but they didn’t.”
To reiterate, disqualification for insurrection or rebellion under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is limited to those who had previously taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States. Prosecution under 18 U.S.C. § 2383 is not so limited.
Congress may remove a § 3 disability by a vote of two-thirds of each House. Congress has no authority to remove any part of any criminal penalty imposed by an Article III judge upon conviction of § 2383.
Disqualification under § 2383 is limited to holding any office under the United States. Disqualification under § 3 applies to any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State.
Disqualification under § 3 was applied retroactively to acts of ex-Confederates for actions occurring prior to the adoption in 1868 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Constitutional prohibitions of ex post facto laws prohibit any such retroactive application of § 2383 or any other criminal statute.
What authority, if any, do you have that § 2383 implements disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3?
It seems that 14.3 added new qualifications (by way of a disqualification) for being a senator or representative beyond the original age and citizenship qualifications.
But while age is fairly concrete, and easily self enacting, citizenship might be a bit fuzzier, but nontheless had at least some clarity by prior acts of congress.
The new disqualification in 14.3 is vague enough as to require further clarity, especially now that the 19th century civil war is long past. Congress can be presumed to have some ability to define insurrection, and must do so in order that the judiciary can make judgement. But there is no place for the judiciary to make this up on its own. Congress must act, or in the absence of action, nothing more can be done.
Self-enacting! That may be a bridge too far, but we may be arriving there. Apparently an AI-written law was recently passed (somewhere). The legislator who introduced it didn't disclose its authorship until after the vote. The era of AI overlords and their self-enacting laws is upon us!
You probably meant self-executing.
So under originalism being a soldier or official in a rebellion like the confederacy constitutes clear and convincing proof of the government being justified in banning someone from holding office under sec. 3. Got it. But then Trump escapes, since, under originalism, Trump would have to engage in analogous rebellion. Was he a soldier or military official in a seccesionist government? No. Did he assist or give aid and comfort to such a government? No.
Originalism, the theory that can be employed for virutally any purpose depending one the level of abstraction one wants to use. Does equal protection apply to women's suffrage? Originalist answer: no, because that's not the way those at the time understood equal protection (Scalia). Originalist answer: yes, because those at the time did not fully understand the true implications of equal protection (Gorsuch). And on and on we go. The theory developed or the sole purpose of thwarting unjustified progressivism---like all revolutionary ideologies--can't actually build anything.
NB: that wasn't quite Gorsuch's reasoning in Bostock. His point was that sexual stereotyping is wrong: not being allowed to be interested in homosexual associations (softball league) or that biological women can be required to only wear "women's" clothing. While a stretch of an understanding of original meaning, that seems a reasonable extrapolation--not unlike Scalia's take on flag burning being protected speech. This decision should also eventually protect straight/normal people for their beliefs too--not being interested in "the gay".
We'll see what happen when it's inherent sex differentiation, like sports and public restroom/changing facilities, or any practice that assumes physical/social difference between the sexes. I don't think Bostock should touch these, but one never knows when Pandora's box has been opened.
This….is neither originalism or textualism.
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
Why was disqualification for the office of the Presidency so obviously not remarked upon in 14.3? Maybe it is buried under 'or hold any office civil or military'. Or maybe not. Originalists want to know.
What part of "any office" are you unclear about?
Ilya is a moron. Geraghty wasn't talking about legalism--he was questioning the wisdom of this.
This. Dr. Strange twists the Time Stone, and reverses past Colorado, then sets time moving forward.
"People will not accept one-sided accusations as sufficient to knock our opponent off the ballot."
"Well, then. We need something resembling a trial with a conclusion things are sufficient."
"They still won't accept it."
"So what? At least we won't look like partisan hacks. Now let's get to designing the memes."
Why are folks here going over and over their same arguments. No one has changed his/her mind.
The case is now in the Courts. So why is Somin trolling this matter? to hear the same arguments, charges and counter-charges?
We'll see when the appeals process plays out
Are you aware what law professors do for a living?
You mean busllshiting as infinitum?
Why are you posting here then? Just to scold everyone?
Hahahahahahaha!!!!
Reader Y question was an obvious tee-up.
Are you really defending Somin in some oblique manner?
He has posted multiple times about A14s3. Adding nothing new, his story is always the same.
Moreover, this topic has been discussed to death and nothing anyone here says is going to make any difference to what happens to Mr Trump.
Have you see hundreds of comments about this topic cause one commenter to have a change of mind? Have you changed your mind?
So yes, Somin has been bullshitting ad infinitum.
I should have added that some commenters, such as not guilty, do add highly informative posts backed with citations.
Some OP writers such as Orin Kerr also post substantial analysis and don't carry on, day after day about the same topic.
FWIW, my mind has been changed. But I'm not a lawyer, so I am just basing it on which arguments seen to be consistent and supported by precedent and legal theories.
Originally, I thought this was a crazy ruling. I didn't understand how Trump could be removed from the ballot, since I thought that was, legally, an internal GOP decision and that the determination of insurrection wasn't established.
I still think it's a bad idea, but I have been convinced not only that it is legally sufficient, but actually a strong case.
I love these sorts of debates. Ignoring the whole "you'll be sorry" and "civil war II" trolls, it has been educating and enlightening to a non-lawyer like me.
My favorite exchange so far has been between MonitorsMost and not guilty. Two detailed and assertive positions. Directly addressing each others points. I'm hoping Monitors responds soon.
Maybe it isn't interesting for lawyers, but the details, legal distinctions, and applications of law are fascinating to me.
I don't think the framers of the 14th Amendment were even thinking of this situation. They figured insurrectionists could successfully run for local positions in former rebel States (Senator, Congressman, Governor, etc). In that case it's the Federal Government telling a recently rebelled State who they can vote for, more like the voting oversight mechanism of the Congressional Review Act.
I don't think they imagined a leader of the rebellion could mount a viable campaign for Presidency, though if they did they probably would have disqualified him, but it wouldn't have been a concern since he'd never be able to get enough EC votes.
I don't think it occurred to them that at some point a candidate would attempt to overturn the election and still have enough support to win a subsequent election.
Given that, I don't think he should be disqualified. I'm ambivalent on whether he qualifies as an insurrectionist, but it's a problem Americans need to solve at the ballot box.
Legal niceties such as enforcing the 14th Amendment aside, I'm coming around to the position that the US deserves Trump II.
Safely abroad, I'm glad I won't be experiencing the result first hand.
Last time he nearly started wars with Iran and North Korea while signalling he wasn't that interested in going to war to protect allies.
This time he'll probably try to sell out Ukraine and dismantle NATO. If I'm Putin I might just try to snatch up a few more bits of the former USSR as long as there's a US President willing to look the other way. And certainly if I'm China another Trump Presidency is the best window to invade Taiwan.
I don't think the fallout from Trump part 2 stays contained to the US.
AG Barr recently had some comments on this that seemed to make sense, from a process standpoint.
Legally here, the denial of due process is fatal. To deprive somebody of the right to hold public office requires due process.
It requires adjudication of two core issues:
One, was there an insurrection?
Did the public disturbance rise to the level of an insurrection?
And second, what was the role of the individual?
Was it engagement?
Did they do something to break their oath of office?
What is 'wrong' with that position?
Edit doesn't work...sigh.
"Legally here...oath of office" is the relevant quote from AG Barr.
Ilya’s post makes it clear that the exact due process requirement needed is a broader question than whether a criminal conviction is required, and that he does not address that question.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that due process is implicated and required. I have not seen anyone argue that Section 3 of the 14th Amendment supersedes the Due Process clauses in the 5th and 14th Amendments. To determine what process is due is the Mathews v. Eldridge balancing test. Disqualification from office seems to be a pretty big Liberty interest so pre-deprivation procedures would seem to be an obvious need.
But the process beyond that is going to be a judgment call. There was a five day evidentiary hearing, 15 witnesses were called, 96 exhibits admitted. Was there enough time before the hearing that subpoenas could be issued to compel testimony, including subpoenas to people out of the direct jurisdiction of the court? Did the rules of evidence apply? The majority opinion skips a lot of the due process questions on the basis that Trump never specified what he would have done if he had more time to prepare and did not attempt to make an offer of proof as to these things.
Obviously one of the dissents thought the process was insufficient, but I don’t feel like the opinion is clear enough on all of the process afforded for me to have a strong feeling on whether due process was met. And that determination is inherently going to be subjective because what process is “due” is a malleable concept to begin with.
Do you believe that he received due process? Results aside, do you see the process that was applied to the case sufficient? If so (or if not), why (or why not)?
I would need more information to make that evaluation. Cross-examination of witnesses is good and the fact that the trial court was apparently applying the rules of evidence to the hearing is good. It was unclear to me whether Trump was afforded sufficient time to engage in the process of receiving out-of-jurisdiction subpoenas to compel witness testimony which would seem to be important when the relevant events occurred outside of Colorado. The Court sidestepped this by noting that Trump did not make an offer of proof about what the specific deficiencies for due process were and what he would have presented had he had more time to prepare and conduct his defense. Which in the abstract is proper, but this doesn't seem like the sort of question where you should be relying on waiver/failure to preserve error. It may very well be that Trump argument was without substance (because, well Trump), but it's hard to get a full read on this question based on the Court's opinion.
Fair enough. Thanks for the clear (and detailed) reply.
PS- I enjoyed your back-and-forth with not guilty earlier.
As I’ve written before, I think the U.S. Supreme Court could potentially uphold the Colorado Supreme Court’s decision without reaching the 14th Amendment issue by finding that Colorado had an adequate and independent state-law ground for disqualifying Mr. Trump from its ballot, given the plenary authority the Constitution gives state legislatures and state law in Presidential elections.
But if it reaches the issue, I agree both that criminal convictions are not required to decide qualification disputes and that the 14th Amendment does not require a criminal conviction. After all, the common-law writ of quo warranto, traditionally used to decide a claim someone wasn’t qualified for an office, was a civil proceeding.
I don’t think that a mere administrative proceeding would be adequate process. But the 5-day trial in a court of record plus appelate review Colorado used definitely was.
People fail to recognize the problems that allowing this causes. You will have candidates tossed off ballots routinely if this is permitted to stand.
Remember the definition of TrumpLaw: By definition it only applies to Trump or his allies. Anybody else is subject to pre-Trump law.
The only new legal stuff with Trump is how whiney the right gets when he or his factotums are dealing with criminal procedures or laws they've been fine with for decades when applied to anyone else.
But that’s a political concern. It’s not the Supreme Court’s concern. If a state legislature chooses to pick the electors itself, there won’t be any ballot at all. Whether to have a ballot at all is completely up to the state legislature. So is whether or not to have criteria that result in routinely tossing people off it.
Conservatives have amusingly come around to embracing an "outcome-based" approach to the law.
That last sentence does not, in fact, follow, no matter how clever you think you are for thinking of it.
Suppose a state legislature leaved the voters out -and just appoints electors. Suppose they required electors to sign a pledge saying they won’t vote for anyone who committed a felony, or doesn’t have a college degree, but the decision is otherwise completely up to them.
Why wouldn’t that be legal? Since they can pledge electors, why can’t they put whatever clauses and conditions in the pledge they want. I acknowledge they are subject to Equal Protection constraints. I don’t think they could pledge electors to vote only for somebody white, for example. But that still leaves a lot of room open to cabin the electos’ decision.
It seems to me that anything they can pledge electors to, they can simply make a condition for being on the ballot if they want to keep the approach of having a popular vote rather than the electors themselves make the actual pick, but want to impose rules constraining what candidates are permissable.
Can it? I’m pretty sure there are Supreme Court cases prohibiting states or Congress from adding additional qualifications to the office of President. I think this even came up with the States who wanted to require candidates to disclose their tax returns.
I don’t think SCOTUS can skirt the issue by saying Trump can be disqualified under Colorado law without reaching the 14th Amendment because the Constitution is the only source of presidential candidate qualifications beyond very narrow ministerial things like registration and deadlines for registering.
No such cases. Cases regarding congressional elections have nothing to do with Presidential elections. The constitution leaves how to select presidential electors entirely up to stare legislatures. If a state legislature picks the electors itselves, it imposes the “additional qualification” that the candidate be the single specific person of its choosing. If it chooses to hold a popular election, it can take the much lesser step of holding such an election among candidates it previously vets.
TIL Griffin v Padilla is not an existing case. I appreciate that there may be some distinction between US Term Limits and presidential electors, but there seems to be a pretty big difference between state legislatures choosing a different method of appointing presidential electors and a court interpreting that a candidate cannot be placed on the ballot due to violation of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. I think your argument is that the Colorado election code is a method of choosing electors which the state can do. That’s an interesting argument, but I don’t think it is self-evident that is what is happening here where a private group is seeking a court order to prevent the Colorado SOS from putting a candidate on the primary ballot who they have proven is ineligible under the 14th Amendment.
Griffin v. Padilla no more applies to how Presidents are selected than it applies to how Supreme Court justices are selected. Members of Congress must be elected by the people, who always have a right to vote for who they want. Justices of the Supreme Court are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate, voters get no say.
For zpresident, state legislatures get to pick how they want to deal with it.
Some day, a president might decide to nominate the judge who scores highest in a poll to be supreme court justice. But a future President could take that completely away. Or do something in between, perhaps offer a short list and then let the poll decide between the people on it.
Our current system of electing a president is no different. We’re just used to having state legislatures use a poll to do their business. Yeah, it’s been done that way for a long time.
But state legislatures could take the poll completely away and do it themselves. Or they could spit the decision, pick their own short list and then let citizens choose among just them. Or they could leave it open but impose rules, like must have college degree, or no felons. Or no insurrectionists.
Disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 does not impose an additional qualification to those specified in the Constitution. The Fourteenth Amendment itself is part of the Constitution. See, U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779, 787-88 n.2 (1995); Powell v. McCormack, 395 U.S. 486, 520, n.41 (1969).
On this one, we are on the same page. Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is a qualification for the office of President. The part of ReaderY’s comment that I take issue with is the argument that SCOTUS can uphold Colorado’s decision. Without reaching the 14th Amendment issue by finding Colorado had an independent state-law ground for disqualifying Trump. I don’t think Colorado can impose independent state-law grounds for disqualifying Trump absent a legislative change which alters how state electors are chosen.
Sure it can. See my reply above. A stare lecture can pick the electors itself. It can pick its own short list and then have an election among only people on the short list. Or it can impose rules like no felons, must have college degree. Or no insurrectionists.
There is no comparison between cases involving an office the constitution fills by election by the people, and an office the constitution fills by a college of electors appointed in a manner directed by state legislatures. Of course state legislatures can do practically whatever they want. The constitution says so specifically.
They do absolutely anything. They can’t say only somebody white, or Christian. They can’t give everyone who lives in the capital 10 votes. The 14th Amendment somewhat reduces their power. They have to follow Due Process and Equal Protection. But any qualification they could impose for any sort of job, they could impose for President. And as long as every citizen gets an equal share of whatever say citizens get, they can give citizens only part of the decision and not all of it.
For the third time (still waiting for your answer), can a state bar a presidential candidate whose parents weren't citizens at the time of the birth of the candidate (state interpretation of natural-born citizen requirement)? Or, bar candidates who were conceived by IVF (a weird state interpretation of natural-born citizen requirement)?
I answered already. Look above.
Sorry, I could not divine your answer from you wrote. Please explicitly address my examples.
My argument is that The Colorado Supreme Court found Section 3 to be an implicit part of Colorado’s election code. So it’s a legislative rule as interpreted by Colorado’s Supreme court.
Exactly where was the court of competent jurisdiction (civil or criminal) that presided over any case entitled The People v. Trump or Joey T. Shitbucket v. Trump in which the defendant was afforded his constituently protected right to a vigorous testing of proffered evidence, witnesses and anything else germane to the issue/charges brough forth in open court? Not to mention an unbiased judge and jury.
I'll wait.
Colorado. I assume Denver, but I'm not going to look it up. (Though that wasn't the case caption for procedural reasons.)
Yes, the District Court sat in Denver.
The lower standard of proof and other procedural differences between criminal and civil cases are justified by the generally less severe consequences at stake in the latter. Civil defendants don't risk the death penalty, prison terms, or getting a criminal record. In this case, Trump doesn't even face the prospect of forfeiting any of his property or paying damages. All he stands to lose is eligibility for various state and federal government jobs.
Over 100 million people face having their ability to vote for the candidate of their choice stolen from them under this fraudulent "procedure".
But I guess "democracy" for actual voters doesn't matter, when compared to "saving Our Democracy"
This logic also applies to a baby running for office.
As is often the case, arguing from anger makes you prove way too much.
If a candidate were born Feb. 29th of a leap year, and one party argued vociferously he wasn't 50 but only 12, is a better analogy.
Who was an insurrectionist after the Civil War wws obvious. The insurrectionists didn't even deny it.
Here, tons deny it. This is trickery to get a political opponent. Such removal should be based on obvious things to all.
It is not. It is weasely partisan effort.
'member talk of removing him through the 25th? But that requires, properly, buy in from his supporters, before such a momentous thwarting of democracy can occur.
Too hard! And thus git 'im initiative 28 fails. Move on to the next one.
Hey! This is easier for two prongs!
1. Don't need buy in from his side.
2. It's wildcatting! Any state can do this! No national concensus needed! Remember, we only need one or two purple states to seal the deal for the nation as a whole!
Whatever this is, a concern for democracy sure as hell ain't it.
Over 100 million people face having their ability to vote for the candidate of their choice stolen from them under this fraudulent "age limit"
The question of fact being harder or easier doesn't trigger different due process. That's not how that works at all.
From a legal perspective maybe, but for the SCOTUS to actually disqualify Trump the results would be catastrophic.
The whole point of Democracy is to provide a simple set of rules for the transfer of power. And to retain legitimacy those mechanisms need to be clear and transparent. That's why the Electoral College is such an issue, because instead of "the most votes win" you've got this weird game of finding the right combination of states.
A big part of Trump's game is de-legitimizing institutions, particularly around elections. That was the point of all the Birtherism and voting conspiracies, to create doubt where there should be none.
Now, if you disqualify Trump on the basis of a debatable fact triggering an esoteric rule then you're feeding Trump's conspiracies that elites are fixing the game and that's much more dangerous.
They already believe elites are fixing the game. I don't think
... that a Trump disqualification would change much. At least that way, Trump won't attack the election itself when he loses.
From a legal perspective maybe, but for the SCOTUS to actually disqualify Trump the results would be catastrophic.
I agree.
But that doesn't mean the arguments we're hearing from the dumbasses around here are not really dumb.
.
They may not have denied that they served in the Confederate "government" or fought in the rebel armies; they certainly did deny it was an insurrection.
At least they did until the war was over, and continuing to deny it could get you a trial by a military tribunal, and a blindfold to wear while you were being shot.
Didn't matter to Trump when he tried to pretend he won, or to his supporters who think he was right for doing so.
"Over 100 million people face having their ability to vote for the candidate of their choice stolen from them under this fraudulent “procedure”."
It's hilarious that you think over 100 million people want to vote for Trump.
Setting aside the fictional number '100 million,' it takes a lot of chutzpah to complain about voters potentially having their vote stolen from them when that's exactly the insurrectional activity engaged in by Trump to get him kicked off this ballot. His entire plot was to steal the actual votes of 81 million people.
I agree that a criminal conviction is not required for disqualification under A14S3: many, many insurrectionists may learn that they have been insurrectionists only when disqualified for having been one!
Consider an individual who has, if not himself having directly engaged in insurrection, has at least given aid and comfort to nepotistic communists (insurrectionists) in violation of a still-in-effect Executive Order issued in the mid 1960s. Under the Colorado definition this man may not serve in public office... and the man may not even realize that there mere act of providing weapons to kibbutzniks of US citizenry was a disqualifying act!! So, the man is disqualified from future office, but is he even eligible to continue to hold any office he might now hold?
Again, I agree that, under the Colorado Rules, no conviction is necessary, the burden of proof is low, and the matter can be decided by a single judge in a single jurisdiction (potentially with appeals therefrom). But this leads to chaos and preposterous results -- and what seems like rather harsh political payback.
But nobody -- nobody at all -- is actively seeking ways to apply the Colorado Definition to hundreds (if not thousands) of self-anointed bullshitting Bulwarks. So everything is hunky-dory.
What in the ever living fuck are you talking about? I know you're an antisemite obsessed with Israel, but it's still astonishing how you've managed to shoehorn the country into the above word soup.
What he's talking about is that under the rules that are proposed for Trump, you could declare people 'insurrectionists' by the score. By the hundreds. All you'd really need is for the House Republicans to put together a kangaroo court committee, issue some findings, and then enlist a cooperative judge.
Democrats are throwing stones while living in a house of glass.
As someone else mentioned,
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1267555018128965643/quotes
Senator Ron Wyden defamed the DHS agents protecting the federal courthouse. Was that aid or comfort to insurrectionists?
Yes, you could.
If you could get the Supreme Court to agree that "engaged in insurrection" means "voting for a Democrat", then sure, job done.
Let us know how that goes, okay?
Obviously Brett's television was broken on January 6, 2021. You might want to review the news coverage from that day, Brett, before you again make a fool of yourself trying to convince us that both sides are equally to blame for what happened. Glass houses? Not even in your fantasy world.
I concur with Andy Ngo.
https://nypost.com/2021/01/08/rage-at-capitol-assault-makes-excuses-for-summer-riots-all-the-more-disgraceful/
Leaning on that awful dude for authority does not make unequal things equal.
The sources you cite continue to paint a *dire* picture of how one-sided your media diet is.
You threw a hissy fit over uNmArKeD vAnS!
When I mentioned the body of law regarding the propriety of apprehensions and arrests, all you could write was this.
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/07/20/whats-happening-in-portland/?comments=true#comment-8359364
The Constitution sets a minimum, not a maximum from what we should expect as the land of the free.
That was a very weak reply.
Yes, we know that's the argument, it's dtill dumb, self-serving and, rather obvious threat and an indication of Republicans' intent to crack down on protests and demonstrations they don't like.
"All you’d really need is for the House Republicans to put together a kangaroo court committee, issue some findings, and then enlist a cooperative judge."
That's not even vaguely related to the process in this case. It's like comparing apples to jet engines.
This wasn't a "friendly judge". It was a full court process that then was examined by a second court. With Trump having every opportunity to dispute any facts.
Why do you make such irrational.comparisons all the time?
"All you’d really need is for the House Republicans to put together a kangaroo court committee, issue some findings, and then enlist a cooperative judge."
No, that wouldn't get the same result. Because it would lack actual, admissible evidence. But given the breathless commentary about the Biden impeachment investigation, evidence isn't necessary in today's GOP.
Colorado absolutely can do this. Its legislature can decide that Colorado’s electoral votes can’t be cast for people who engage in specific actions it disapproves of. That could be one of those actions. But such a person would not in any way be “disqualified from future office.” He simply can’t be the person Colorado’s presidential electors cast their ballots for.
After all, the Colorado legislature can pick the electors itself and decide that Colorado’s electoral votes will be cast for John Smith. Whwn it does thst, that means that everybody but John Smith is disqualified. But so what? That kind of disqualification haplens all the time. When President Trump nominated Amy Coney Barrett to be a Supreme Court Justice, everybody but Amy Coney Barrett was disqualified from being considered by the Senate. When President Biden announced he would only nominate a black women, everybody but black women was disqualified. It’s no different.
The Constitution does give state legislatures this power, and if the legislature chose the electors, we have to live with that.
This is far different than courts disqualifying candidates based upon definitions that are beyond any reasonable limit.
But can't a court disqualify electors by proxy? That is, if a municipal court decides that a candidate is unacceptable, doesn't that make every elector for that candidate unacceptable? Or not?
Electors these days are pledged to vote for particular individual. Of course a state doesn’t have to do things this way. But if it does, it can simply say that electors cannot pledge to support anyone who’s disqualified, and won’t be appointed unless they conform. Or it can accomplish the same thing by requiring electors to pledge to support the person on the ballot who gets the most votes, and then police who’s allowed on the ballot.
"definitions that are beyond any reasonable limit."
Of course. In your world, admissible evidence that wasn't disputed by Trump is "beyond any reasonable limit". You are clearly insane.
"Over 100 million people face having their ability to vote for the candidate of their choice stolen from them under this fraudulent “procedure”."
They can always write him in, I suppose.
Not in Colorado
But there is no right for ciitizens to vote for President in this country. If a state legislature picks the electors itself, there’s no vote at all. A state legislature can do that any time it wants.
Something you have no right to have in the first place can’t be stolen from you.
Actually, there isn't a right for any citizen to vote for a President. The right belongs to a cabal.
Lets have a.little thought experiment on the self executing 14th amendment. First I don't doubt that some sections of the 14th amendment are self executing, such as the long-standing practice of striking laws for violating due process.
But lets say a state or federal judge decides that not creating a Minority Majority district when possible a bridges the right to vote of all black voters in Mississippi, and violates section 1 of the 14th Amendment:
"But when the right to vote at any election for
the choice of electors for President and Vice President of
the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the
Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, [being twenty-one years of age,]* and
citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except
for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of
representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion
which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the
whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in
such State."
Since Mississippi has 5 Congressional seats and its percentage of Black residents is ~40%, the Judge rules that Mississippi can only seat 3 representatives and that the congressman from the whitest district is ineligible o be seated.
Does the judge have the authority under a self executing 14th amendment to craft such a remedy without congressional action, and based on a preponderance of the evidence that having one fewer possible black majority district abridged the voting rights of all black residents in the state?
Yes, and then SCOTUS reverses.
Whoops, Mississippi has 4 seats of course, but certainly its still possible to racially gerrymander two majority minority districts by concentrating 40% of the white population in 2 80% white districts, leaving the remaining 2 districts 60% black.
Here is the thing.
Even if there was absolute proof that Trump spoke with the Proud Boys, and used his speech to give coded orders for them to attack the Capitol, that still does not constitute engaging in insurrection.
If we take this ridiculously broad definition of "waging war against the United States", can the rioters in Portland, Kenosha, and Minneapolis be tried for insurrection?
Keep living in your dream world, Michael. It must be nice there, where you don't let little things like facts and reality get in your way
Riots are not insurrections.
.
Not in and of themselves, no. What makes J6 different than an ordinary riot was its object: to prevent the lawful transfer of power and (re-)install someone as president who had no ongoing right to the office.
Once again setting the definition of "insurrection" to be, "Exactly what we claim Trump did, and nothing else."
Of course, the Antifa/BLM riots did plenty that could be properly charged as insurrection. And you might be able to make a case for January 6th being an insurrection on somebody's part, though no prosecutor attempted that.
The problem is that Trump didn't break into the Capitol, and he didn't order anybody to break into the Capitol, so he's no more guilty of insurrection even if an insurrection took place that day, than numerous Democrats are guilty of insurrection by giving aid and comfort to rioters attempting to burn down federal buildings, or deny government control over areas of cities.
.
Of course not. What the southern traitors did was also insurrection.
You really have trouble understanding that if someone does something unique, claiming that it's being treated uniquely is not a compelling argument against it.
So then insurrection is exactly what the southern traitors did.
Of course, the Antifa/BLM riots did plenty that could be properly charged as insurrection.
No they didn't. They weren't attempting to overthrow the US government. That's the critical piece.
Even the so-called autonomous zones were at most rebellions against the state government, not against the United States itself.
.
I agree with the point you're making, but don't let his hackish premises go unchallenged. There weren't "Antifa/BLM riots." Those are just three random buzzwords thrown together.
Of course there were -- in Brett's Dreamland.
That is not the definition of insurrection.
We can all probably agree that a riot, by itself, is not an insurrection.
But if that's the definition you want, and anyone engaged in a BLM riot is therefore also disqualified under the 14th Amendment, I won't really quibble much.
Congress made rebellion and/or insurrection a federal crime in 18 USC 2383 in 1948, which removed it from a civil consideration in terms of disqualification. After that point, the only legitimate disqualification has to come through a federal prosecution and conviction, period. ILYA SOMIN is wrong. He knows he is wrong. He published this hit piece just to get facetime. Why REASON would allow it is another story.
As someone else implied, Congress could have given individual states (subject to judicial review) the power to judge who is and is not an insurrectionist.
They chose to define insurrection for themselves.
Now here is a quote from someone for whom this level of TDS is too much.
https://www.thefp.com/p/colorado-court-trump-2024-peter-meijer-democracy
Broadening the Fourteenth Amendment understanding of insurrection from the horrendous bloodshed of a civil war or equivalent catastrophe will open the floodgates to tit-for-tat challenges. If Trump’s rhetorical culpability for January 6 qualifies, similar lawsuits against Democratic politicians who encouraged BLM rioters will swiftly follow. Was Kamala Harris giving “aid or comfort” when she fundraised bail money for rioters? You can imagine where this could go.
.
They did? When?
18 USC 2383
Read my comments upthread regarding § 3283. I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Excuse me. I meant to say § 2383.
18 USC § 2383 does not contain any definition of insurrection.
A criminal prosecution under § 2383 would require the trial court to instruct the jury on the meaning of insurrection, but it is difficult to imagine any set of instructions that would exclude mustering the insurrectionists and giving them marching orders.
Judge Sarah Wallace in Denver carefully considered the definitions of insurrection and engagement for purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3, and she rigorously applied those definitions to the proof adduced at trial. She found that the burden was on the petitioners to prove their claims by a preponderance of evidence, but she opined further that the evidence adduced at trial further showed by clear and convincing evidence that Trump engaged in insurrection.
This wasn't an intelligent comment even once; is there a reason you posted it 4 times?
Why you think Reason had anything to do with it is yet another story.
Democrats, you are digging your own political grave by supporting this ruling.
Whose rights is it more important to protect, the right of 8 people to deny the ballot access of a candidate for Federal office, or the right of 4 million people to vote?
This was not a cut-and-dried decision. It was deeply split, even among judges all representing the same political party. Even worse, the split decision was immediately stayed, pending some genuinely odd set of conditions the sum of which was that basically, "what we did here doesn't matter, because the candidate's name is going to appear on the ballot pretty much no matter what happens next."
What was done was not wise. It was not respectful nor deferential to the voters. It appeared to be both partisan and cowardly.
And as a fervent anti-Trumper, it was infuriating. It has made it doubly harder now to make the argument that people can trust the process, that voting is worthwhile and it isn't rigged.
Democrats, you are digging your own political grave by supporting this ruling.
I don't see broad support for the ruling. Ambivalence, more than anything, among Democrats. Those most strongly opposed to it are Trump's competitors for the nomination, strangely.
This was not a cut-and-dried decision. It was deeply split, even among judges all representing the same political party.
Well, this isn't an accurate characterization.
Even worse, the split decision was immediately stayed, pending some genuinely odd set of conditions the sum of which was that basically, “what we did here doesn’t matter, because the candidate’s name is going to appear on the ballot pretty much no matter what happens next.”
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, really. Courts staying their own rulings, so as to permit parties to appeal, is really just a gesture of respect and good order. It's not unusual or hypocritical in the slightest.
What was done was not wise. It was not respectful nor deferential to the voters. It appeared to be both partisan and cowardly.
It's a bit like arguing that Democrats had sought to impeach Trump from the day he entered office, when in fact they didn't do so until he was halfway through his term, and only after he had done something so egregiously corrupt and provable that - in any ordinary functioning democracy - he ought to have been easily impeached and removed from office.
And, just as mainstream Republicans hoped that impeachment would remove Trump while putting the blame on Democrats, so here - it is not Democrats who want Trump off the ballot. They don't want him to win the presidency, to be sure, but Trump is in fact their best Republican opponent for 2024. Better to run an incumbent Biden against the same candidate he won against in 2020.
The people who want Trump off the ballot are mainstream Republicans, the ones who think he won't win against Biden, and the ones who want Trump to move aside so they can install their own version of a MAGA candidate, one more pre-programmed to play ball with congressional Republicans. It wasn't Democrats who first started floating this Section 3 disqualification theory, and it's not Democrats who are bringing lawsuits like the one in Colorado.
Honestly, all of this stuff you're trying to hook on the Democrats is just fine and dandy with Republican leadership. They hoped he would get impeached. They hoped that he would lose support after getting drawn into criminal investigations and trials. They're hoping he'll get disqualified from the primary ballots so that other candidates have a chance to win in the (stacked to help Trump) primary process they now have.
"This was not a cut-and-dried decision. It was deeply split, even among judges all representing the same political party.
Well, this isn’t an accurate characterization."
It was a 4-3 decision, and all of the judges were originally selected by Democratic Governors. (Yeah, some of them have been through rubber stamp retention elections since.) So, what exactly wasn't accurate?
Weren't some of them Republicans?
Those 4 million chose to establish such a rule.
That ineligibles can't appear on the ballot is something they put in their constitution.
That preponderance of the evidence* is the standard of evaluation is something instituted by Colorado General Assembly.
*Something that is constitutionally sufficient but improper in my view. Beyond reasonable doubt is appropriate, not for the candidate's own sake, but for the polity's and voters' sake. Of course, in my view, Coloradoans should make it their law that Section 3 isn't a basis for ballot exclusion, and the country would be wise to repeal Section 3.
'Democrats, you are digging your own political grave by supporting this ruling. '
Trump and his supporters think he has the right to pretend he won the election and remain in power through fraud, conspiracy and violence. You're justr thretaening them with more of the same.
The MAGAs have not got much left. The Colorado Court left the due process argument in tatters. Section 3 says what it says. Any resort to political questions cannot be read to mean the voters get to decide. It only means the courts don't decide. Which leaves the state administrative officials who normally decide candidates' qualifications for office in charge of the Trump case.
The one hope the MAGAs have left is that they get the break if SCOTUS steps in and decides the case, paradoxically, on a claim of prudential political wisdom—essentially writing Section 3 out of the constitution. The paradox, of course, being that there is no more wisdom (or safety) in altering the Constitution illegitimately to favor one side than there is to do it to favor the other.
That's where it is, folks.
The wisest course for SCOTUS is to refuse cert and let this poisoned chalice pass. At least that way the states end up owning among them whatever chaotic result ensues, while the Court's legitimacy dodges yet another gratuitous hit. To preserve whatever shreds of legitimacy the Court has left could prove critical if more electoral chaos lies in store, which seems likely.
I do think Somin, Nieporent and many other readers here will change their tune once Biden or another Democrat is dropped from red states ballots.
The practical effect would actually be very small. Trump wouldn't take Colorado anyway, Biden won it by 13 points in 2020. Ditto, any states that are red enough to block Biden are states he probably wasn't going to win anyway. But the political damage, acrimony and retaliatory escalation that follows isn't going to be a pretty sight.
1) I have already said, in another thread, that I don't think it's a good idea to implement A14S3 in this ad hoc fashion, so there's no real tune to change. What I am arguing in this thread is the legality, not the prudence.
2) As I also said in another thread, I really don't get the MAGA people telling on themselves by threatening, "We're going to act in bad faith if you don't give Trump a pass!" Biden has nothing to fear from an honest application of A14S3. (Or if he does, then so be it.) So the only real threat is that the GOP is going to try to disqualify him dishonestly — and, um, that says a lot more about the GOP than it does about disqualifying Trump.
"As I also said in another thread, I really don’t get the MAGA people telling on themselves by threatening, “We’re going to act in bad faith if you don’t give Trump a pass!”"
It's not hard to understand: Republicans already think Democrats are trying to disqualify Trump dishonestly, so don't think they'd be doing anything different to Biden.
The big difference here between 'MAGA' conservatives and traditional conservatives, is that the MAGA types have given up on playing by Marquess of Queensberry rules when Democrats are wearing brass knuckles and kicking them in the nuts. They figure this isn't a game, it's a fight for the future of the nation, and they don't have to fight cleaner than the Democrats do.
Mind, since there's an inherent tendency to overstate how dirty the opposition is, and how clean your own side is, this is a recipe for a downward spiral. So I'm not at all sold on it.
Republicans don’t believe in our judiciary system and think two wrongs make a right.
Well, Republicans have reasons for not believing in our judiciary system at this point. Significant portions of it have been corrupted.
And if you try to gouge my eyes I can rightfully knee you in the nuts, while it would be wrongful if I just delivered the foul blow for no reason. That's one wrong making another wrong a right, isn't it?
Trump is not your eyes. Telling you choose a analogy where he is so vital to your identity.
You show how little you care about the law versus whining and threats.
'Republicans already think Democrats are trying to disqualify Trump dishonestly,'
Democrats know for a fact Trump tried to stay in power even though he lost the election, and that his supporters rioted to that end.
'MAGA types have given up on playing by Marquess of Queensberry rules'
Beyond parody.
Biden has nothing to fear from an honest application of A14S3.
The word "honest" is key here isn't it? I could easily craft a legal narrative that the unprecedented number of migrants currently swarming the southern border is akin to an insurrection. After all, it's not just contributing to lawlessness, homelessness, and a current fiscal crisis, but there are also wanted felons and people on the terrorist watch list that have crossed the border. It's certainly cost more in both dollars and lives than Jan 6 did. So it's not a stretch to interpret that as engaging "in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof". and find Biden's culpability translates into committing this offense for purposes of Sec 3. After all, you don't need a conviction, right?
I am positive both you and Somin would vigorously oppose that interpretation of Sec 3. But now that this door has been opened, you don't get to choose what walks through.
Hopefully the Supreme court will slam it back shut again, and quickly.
"I could easily craft a legal narrative that the unprecedented number of migrants currently swarming the southern border is akin to an insurrection."
Anyone can write bullshit. You aren't going to convince any judges though.
Anyone can write bullshit.
Just ask Ilya Somin.
+1
The real effect of applying this principle would be to state level officers; 'Red' states could disqualify popular Democratic mayors or Representatives, 'Blue' states popular Republican office holders.
Could. And if you think they would, that says a lot about the GOP.
Being so sure of yourself you not only don't trust institutions but think the moral thing to do is to corrupt them to go against your enemies means you and your party have left republican politics behind and worship at the altar of authoritarianism.
In service of a dump like Trump.
If you consider for a moment you might be wrong, it all falls apart. If by contrast I'm wrong and Trump is getting persecuted, I'd be pissed, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be 'time to use the government for corrupt authoritarian partisanship' mad.
A lot of people here used to hate the Dems, but had enough principles to not embrace authoritarianism. Not any more.
Yes, that's the fascinating thing. On some level I get wanting to cut taxes, ban abortion, and require women to wear dresses and be home makers. But there must be another politician they can nominate for that ticket than Trump. Why cling to Trump?
FWIW it might be the idea that the 2020 election was a fraud, that Trump should be finishing up his second term and despite all of his personal flaws the country was doing much better under his presidency than it has been doing under Biden.
Sure, but that is plain nonsense. No one could believe that in good faith unless they were implausibly stupid. Hanlon's razor only goes so far.
Kyle: One fourth of Americans are retards.
Stan: Yeah, at least one fourth.
https://youtu.be/d7lxwFEB6FI?feature=shared
Please, make our wish come true and take Biden off the ballot! You lot really should be saying the same thing about Trump.
In fact, I think there's a possibility of SCOTUS taking the outcome-oriented approach... of affirming Colorado! Mature Republicans have been trying to rid their party of Trump for eight years now. But they've all been constrained by politics... until now! SCOTUS's life-appointed, old-school conservatives could very well take this opportunity to finally put Trump out of his (and his party's) misery once and for all.
Hoooookay.....
For the sake of argument, I'll accept that Section 3 doesn't require a conviction, although that really seems to undercut the purpose of the insurrection law (18 U.S. Code § 2383). But this isn't just about conviction. No only wasn't Trump convicted - Trump was never even charged with the crime. In fact, NO ONE out of the thousands at the Capitol that night was even charged with insurrection. Not even the guys trying to break into the senate chamber or attacking police. So if Jan 6 was so obviously an insurrection, why was not a single person charged? It's not like Biden's DoJ has been shy about pursuing legal action against anyone even near the Capitol that day.
And that's one reason why the OJ case is a bad comparison - the fact in that case were strong enough that OJ was at least TRIED for the crime of murder. There are no such facts against anyone involved in Jan 6. Doesn't that seem like a bit of a mismatch?
BTW, I also can't help but point out that Trump already had a trial in the Senate over Jan 6 and was acquitted.
And that’s one reason why the OJ case is a bad comparison – the fact in that case were strong enough that OJ was at least TRIED for the crime of murder. There are no such facts against anyone involved in Jan 6. Doesn’t that seem like a bit of a mismatch?
the alleged facts in the OJ case clearly met the definition of murder.
The alleged facts here do not meet the legal definition of insurrection.
although that really seems to undercut the purpose of the insurrection law
The insurrection law covers way more conduct (such as incitement) and way more people (not just oath-breakers). It's not a good match for Section 3 at all actually.
So, a single State Court Judge can remove anyone from the Presidential ballot? How can you not SEE the issue with this misplaced authority??? And the State Court Judge can define insurrection in any way he/she decides, and only define it after the fact??? More Soviet jurisprudence from our resident Communist.
Actually, the single state court judge here of course did not remove anyone from the presidential ballot. It was multiple state Supreme Court justices who did.
In a sense a single judge did; It was 4-3, even one of the majority changing their mind would have reversed the outcome.
In a sense?
Pedantry is the last refuge of those without a legit argument left.
Yes, a single swing vote on the court. And he was only 51% sure of removing Trump, as that was the standard applied.
In fact, the standard applied was the significantly higher clear and convincing evidence, not preponderance, even though the court said the latter was all that was necessary.
And, no, a 4-3 vote means 4 justices, not 1, made the decision.
Meanwhile Michigan SC reaches opposite decision.
For different reasons.
Possibly, based on different state law but the question remains the same is this a federal or state issue.
That is a silly argument Brett.
Four judges issues an opinion.
Four judges concurred on a per curiam decision. We don't know the author/authors.
I want to say, on a meta level, there are two ways to read Ilya's post:
1. The law supports removal of a presidential candidate based on what appear to one layperson ( thank God I'm not a lawyer!) to be frivolous and vindictive reasons against an unpopular person.
2. Ilya's reasoning is wrong, and the Colorado supreme court misconstrued this very fundamental constitutional question about who can run for the presidency.
Either way, it means that law has broken down in this country in a very catastrophic way, and those with good intentions would be wise to look for ways to mend it.
From that, Somin concludes that Trump must be kicked off the ballot because nothing against him can be proved in court!
It's. Not. About. Trump.
Beyond reasonable doubt is the appropriate standard for our own sakes.
I don't think a state has to have such a standard to boot someone from the ballot constitutionally. But it's really what's best. I will die on that hill.
No civil lawsuit requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
...I didn't say they did.
But they certainly could, and in at least one common instance, they do.
See Clarity and Reasonable Doubt in Early State-Constitutional Judicial Review
57 S. Tex. L. Rev. 169 (2015) by Christopher Green (on SSRN)
But even if what you said were true, it would tell us nothing about the appropriate standard for this type of case.
(I keep trying to include the link, but Reason seems to not like me posting links.)
The author of this article, along with the bulk of commenters, are precisely why the claim of degeneracy, and, or, immaturity prevails here, within the attendant locations of "higher" learning, and the relic mainstream media.
Bothering myself to remind all, legal arguments largely fail when backed by odd, inconsistent, and voodoo arguments. Unworthy is most papers on the subject of A14 S3 as few have researched and carefully read previous views and the CRS.
Exactingness is mandatory.
In which way do you interpret the 2nd Amendment?
....to be continued.
It doesn’t require conviction. It does require that “officer of the United States” applies to a POTUS, and established case law holds that it doesn’t.
Thanks, Josh.
I cannot countenance President Trump, but the argument made in this article must have either be made by someone wholly ignorant of the law or by someone who isn’t ignorant of the law but is counting on ignorance of the law by its readers. That someone may be prosecuted civilly for action or inaction by the victims of that action or inaction to recoup damages without the prerequisite of a criminal conviction, and that that victim may prevail in civil court due to different standards of evidence and culpability, has no bearing whatsoever on whether a state or private entity can bring and prevail in a civil case for disqualification from a ballot due to a real or unreal insurrection. What actual losses did plaintiffs incur on Jan 6 due to President Trumps action or inaction which are recompensed by disqualification? None! How does disqualification recompense the plaintiffs? It’s prima facie one of the most specious arguments I’ve ever heard, and we don’t have to get into standing, due process, and other shenanigans that is nothing more than hypocrisy by the Left. Save democracy? From itself? It’s like watching the grotesquely sanctimonious Republicans and their witch hunts in the 80s (congressional hearings on rock n roll anyone?) just 40 years later
Yes, anonymous person who has never posted here before: I believe that you are actually anti-trump. But you are just so outraged at this — based on a complete misunderstanding of what the proceeding was — that you're going to be forced to support Trump, amirite?
Not really pro or anti anybody. Just don’t like untruth (like false choices). Definitely not outraged, not either by those “justices” in CO or the author, or Trump for that matter. The hole in the remedies aspect of this quasi legal argument, as made by the author of the article, was wide and unaddressed as best I could tell. Was it irksome to watch someone with no legal education pontificate and equivocate? Sure. That’s why I posted (and you’re right) my first post here.
"Ilya Somin is Professor of Law at George Mason University, and author of Free to Move: Foot Voting, Migration, and Political Freedom and Democracy and Political Ignorance: Why Smaller Government is Smarter."
What was that you were saying about Ilya not having any legal education?
You put "justices" in quotes. Don't pretend like you aren't one of the MAGA idiots.
Somin is a professor, but he sure made a stupid argument. And he makes a lot of stupid arguments.
Shorter Illya: "Blah blah Trump is a threat to democracy and we MUST make up any rule to remove him as a choice in democracy!!!"
Yes, and he does not even bother to answer any of the criticisms.
I'm not sure "make up" is the word you want to use for a rule that's been in the constitution for more than 150 years.
SCOTUS can not possibly disallow Trump on the ballot. If they do it would be the end of elections, as someone would object to any and all candidates.
The one that Trump postponed while he was President and which Biden was under no obligation to follow.
Let me make this clear.
Withdrawing from a base in FRIENDLY territory requires the removal of all American weapons and equipment. An officer in command who left behind weapons and equipment would be reprimanded or even court-martialed!
Can YOU explain why he chose to abandon the military airport FIRST, without notifying anybody?
That decision was criminally negligent, inexcusable, and incompetent.
And Biden, as c-in-c, owns that decision.
And it cleaerly says people can't pick Brandon nor Cuntala!
Just like the 2nd Amendment, democratically passed, is all about telling people that there are many gun rules you aren't allowed to enact. But your traitorous judges just ignore it when it suits their fancy.
We all know the only things you care about are killing third trimester babies and letting the Rev. Kirkland bareback you to completion.
?
By your own admission, then, statists have never cared about due process, since they are the ones in control whose police bump heads, whose judges and bureaucrats rush immigrants, and who pay public defenders so poorly. This TDS lack of due process is just par for the course in Democrat administrations.
Is that really what you meant to say?
Why should I care that public defenders get paid so little? They shouldn't exist at all. The constitution gives you the right to have counsel for your defense, not to have it for free. If you can't pay for it, you should have to defend yourself with no lawyer.
Worst case, some poor people get convicted of crimes they didn't commit. That's a positive, as poor people are usually stupid and myopic, so the world is better off with them in cells.
Given that progressive cities have the largest problem of inadequate funding of public defenders, doesn't seem to a conservative issue.
Ditto police abuse. Seems to happen A LOT in very blue areas.
Trump supporters may well be deranged. That doesn't prevent Trump opponents from being deranged. Perhaps you should reframe your argument.
Trump derangement isn't a syndrome, it's a fact.
It was meant to remove traitors from serving in the government they betrayed.
The issue is regarding who gets to determine who is a traitor. If the Colorado Supreme Court is correct, it's every State for itself. So in States that are solidly in the control of one party, the incumbents from the other party can be banned based on having given aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States; each State would determine what counts as "aid and comfort" and who are America's "enemies."
They don't have unlimited power. Do you think the US Constitution permits each State to ban a person from the ballot based on that person's political views? How about allowing only one party to be on the ballot? Either of those, IMO, would violate the right to free speech.
If Trump meets the requirements that apply to everyone else to be on Colorado's ballot, he should be on it. Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is not a ballot access rule enacted by Colorado. It is a command by the US Constitution and so it should be interpreted by SCOTUS and enforced by Congress.
In the interest of accuracy, which of course we all hope for, let me correct that first sentence for you: Just like the 2nd Amendment, democratically passed, is all about telling people that their right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed when they are participating in a well-regulated militia.
.
Remember the good old days, Prof. Volokh, when you could censor me, ascribe it to "civility standards" rather than partisan hypocrisy, and come close to getting away with it? Your Muslim trans fetish might be a good fit with this guy's gay fixation.
Do you think that Colorado is powerless to say that a candidate is only 28 years old and therefore ineligible and therefore can't be on the ballot? That this is "a command by the US Constitution and so it should be interpreted by SCOTUS and enforced by Congress"?
This is a reply to David Nieporent (his comment does not have a "Reply" button):
A person's age is easily and objectively identifiable. What constitutes a "rebellion or insurrection" is much more subjective. It is for SCOTUS and/or Congress to determine what constitutes a "rebellion or insurrection." Regarding Constitutional limitations on who can run for federal office, States can not add to, or otherwise expand upon, those limitations (U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995)).
Under City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507 (1997), the 14th Amendment means what the Supreme Court says it means. That case involved Congress using Section 5 of the 14th Amendment to mandate a broader reading of the 1st Amendment's Free Exercise Clause (which applies to the States via the 14th's Due Process Clause) than was provided by the Supreme Court. The Court struck down the Congress's action as beyond Congress's Section 5 authority.
If Congress can not give the 14th Amendment a broader reading, neither can a State. Ultimately, this means the Supreme Court will determine if Section 3 of the 14th Amendment bars Trump from running for the presidency. That determination will be binding on Congress and the States.
.
I agree that this is a practical distinction between the two situations. I just don't agree that it is a legal distinction.
"I just don’t agree that it is a legal distinction."
That's because you have a lawyer's blinkered view of what "due process" can possibly mean. But you don't have to take my word for it; Minnesota Secretary of State Steve Simon remarked that one of many possible ways for the US Supreme Court to handle the case is for them to send the case by saying further process is due.
you have a lawyer’s blinkered view of what “due process” can possibly mean
It's a legal term, so a lawyer's view is pretty key.
Your 'whaaa I didn't get the outcome I wanted' take on due process tells nothing about the actual process that is due.
The main insight you offer is how little you care about arguing facts versus just yelling for your side.
.
"You have a lawyer's view of the law" is an odd criticism.
I certainly agree with the statement allegedly made by the MN SoS that if SCOTUS wants to dodge this, finding that there was insufficient process is probably the least controversial way it can do so. Doing so would mean that it would not need to rule for or against Trump on the substance of the insurrection issue, nor would it need to decide that A14S3 is a dead letter, nor would it have to adopt the laughable notion that the president isn't an officer.
Indeed. All they'd have to rule is that the federal law on insurrection is Section 3 enabling legislation, convict him or go away. A perfectly reasonable position, which I'm pretty sure will get at least 5 votes, maybe as many as 7.
Replying to Queen almathea (fix the Reply function already!)
SMP0328, are you arguing state Supreme Courts can’t interpret and apply the 14th Amendment?
Definitely not. They can, but their interpretation is subject to review by SCOTUS.
The SCOTUS can overrule their interpretation or application, but they can and do interpret and apply the 14th often.
Exactly. A state supreme court's interpretation of the US Constitution is binding in that State, until SCOTUS gets involved. I have no doubt that will happen in this case. Once SCOTUS rules on the matter, that ruling will be binding on the States and Congress (see U.S. Term Limits and City of Boerne).
"All they’d have to rule is that the federal law on insurrection is Section 3 enabling legislation, convict him or go away."
And in doing so, slavery would immediately become legal again, due process would mean nothing, and minorities can no longer vote.
The same language is used in all three Amendments. You are a goal-oriented idiot to try and claim it was not self-executing like the others.
"And in doing so, slavery would immediately become legal again, due process would mean nothing, and minorities can no longer vote."
You'll have to show your work there, I think.
All they’d have to rule is that the federal law on insurrection is Section 3 enabling legislation, convict him or go away.
They definitely won't do this one. It's totally illogical. It won't even be considered. This is some fever-dream verkakte notion spun up right here on VC.
I don't think they'll even go to due process. I think they'll say that because of the lack of any enabling legislstion, there's no cause of action for enforcing Section 3 directly in the courts.
The Colorado Supreme Court already showed the work, Brett.
You did read the decision, right? The proof you're ignorant of starts in section 3C, which begins on page 49 and ends on page 61.
No, that's not what it's about.
It doesn't say "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed when participating in a well-regulated militia."
It says "Because a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
That's not how the Supreme Court interprets the 2nd Amendment.
There is no justification for applying different standards of interpretation to the 2nd Amendment and the 14th Amendment.
Abuse in the red areas is usually confined to blue people, so I'm largely okay with it.
By showcasing your own hypocrisy.
To quote Rick Sanchez: your boos means nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.
To add to your point "well regulated" had a different meaning back then than what the left believes.
Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined and not a bunch of laws.
Do you think the drafters of the Second Amendment were too stupid to realize that they should have omitted the reference to service in the militia if they intended for the right to keep and bear arms to apply in all circumstances -- even circumstances unrelated to the service in the militia?
Note how no one is saying you should go to jail for your nihilistic spite-voting?
Imagine yourself with such a generous mindset.
Got any quotes from Tyler Durden or Patrick Bateman?
It meant organized and controlled under military discipline. A notion which not one one gun advocate in 20 seems willing to endorse today.
You falsely attempted to respond.
You failed, miserably.
Even in red states, the places with the problems are cities. Which, of course, tend to be blue.
If the Colorado Supreme Court is correct, it’s every State for itself.
Oh the humanity! I mean stupidity. The CSC stayed their own ruling so that SCOTUS could decide, once and for all, for every state, whether Trump is disqualified or not.
Or really, a bunch of circumstanes unrelated to and not including service in a militia, is where we've ended up under a supposedly "originalist" court. It'd be funny if it weren't so dangerous... to victims of gun violence and to the security of a free state.
Okay Randal, I'll say it so even you can understand. If SCOTUS does not review this case, each State could use Section 3 against whomever it disliked as long as that person had previously been in any federal, State, or local office.
So? That's true about everything SCOTUS decides not to decide, and they could change their minds and decide it later if it becomes a problem.
Plus it's super unlikely in this case.
Sending it back to the States?
(What's your position on Roe v. Wade, I wonder?)
QA, my sister has an African Grey, named Ezra. He breaks that rule all the time. He also shows better judgment than many of the MAGA commenters here. For instance, if any of them came to my sister's house for a visit, it would not be long before Ezra started saying, "See you later." "Bye Bye." Ezra hates to be bored.
Once my sister's car was stolen, with Ezra in his travel cage in the back seat. But after only a couple of blocks the thief abandoned the car, with Ezra in it. My sister's co-workers at a Maryland legal aid office, knowing Ezra's command of legal repertoire, speculated Ezra may have intoned: "You have the right to remain silent."
Ezra is sharp enough to understand that people laugh at jokes. Ezra likes laughter. With guests around, Ezra watches alertly to see if laughter is about to happen. Then he beats everyone to it, and laughs first. The impression that the bird got the joke is uncanny.
They got out on the streets and demonstrated against policy brutality all acorss the US, and you sided with police brutality.
...and they're still underpaid. Largely due to COL in blue shitholes.
Um, okay. How does that help Trump, exactly?
You're talking about the prefatory clause as though it is the operative clause. Which you're entitled to do.
But the Supreme Court has the last word on the meaning of the Constitution (until amended), and they obviously disagree with your interpretation.
The principle which delivered the existing interpretation without an amendment can apply alike to the next interpretation. Or, you could inflect the process by originalism, and shift the meaning back toward the militia purpose.
I declare this the winning comment.