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New Yorker Article Seems to Misdescribe S. Ct.'s Decision on School Library Book Removal
The article claims that a prohibition on viewpoint-based removals of school library books is "settled law" announced by a "majority opinion." But that's not so.
The Dec. 7 article asks, "How Would This Supreme Court Rule on Book Banning?," and says this in paragraphs 4, 5, and 7 (out of 7) (emphasis added):
All this raises the question of what the current Supreme Court would do if it were to decide to take up one of the simmering book-ban cases. The key precedent on the issue is Island Trees School District v. Pico, from 1982. That case arose out of the removal of ten books from public middle-school and high-school libraries in a school district on Long Island, New York, by the local board of education. Though Island Trees is forty years old, the case concerns books addressing the same themes included in today's bans: Richard Wright's "Black Boy," Kurt Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse-Five," Eldridge Cleaver's "Soul on Ice," and titles by Bernard Malamud and Alice Childress. The vice-president of the local board, a retired New York City police sergeant, had deemed the books obscene, "anti-American," and "just plain filthy," though he admitted that he hadn't read them. In fact, he heard about them at a meeting of an organization called Parents of New York United (P.O.N.Y.U.), a conservative group from Watkins Glen, in far-western New York, which had compiled a list of objectionable books and given it to the Long Island school-board members. P.O.N.Y.U. is a precursor of sorts for Moms for Liberty, the modern conservative book-banning group from Florida. (Indeed, Governor Reynolds spoke alongside other state Republican lawmakers at an event hosted by Moms for Liberty at a middle school in Des Moines just months before passing the Iowa law.)
The Island Trees case made its way to the Supreme Court after a district-court judge in Brooklyn, appointed by Ronald Reagan, ruled in favor of the school board, finding that students had no right to access the books in question. The Second Circuit Court of Appeals reversed that ruling, and the Supreme Court took up the subsequent appeal. There, in a majority decision written by Justice William Brennan, the Court invalidated the ban, echoing a prior ruling that students do not surrender their First Amendment rights "at the schoolhouse gate." But the over-all ruling is hardly a model of judicial clarity. The decision was 5–4, with seven separate written opinions, including four dissents. The majority noted that citizens, including minors, have a right to receive information and ideas. Nevertheless, the opinion is limited to the removal of books that are already in a library, and the Court makes explicit that it is not ruling that school libraries must acquire any particular books. Moreover, Chief Justice Warren Burger wrote a dissent in which he made the evergreen argument that parents should have "influence, if not control" over their children's education, equating parental control to "democracy in a microcosm." He also suggested that children who are denied books in school libraries are not prevented from obtaining them: they can simply go to a bookstore and buy them. Finally and, perhaps, ominously, Burger asserts that there is no constitutional requirement that schools maintain libraries at all. "The board," he wrote, "could wholly dispense with the school library, so far as the First Amendment is concerned." …
This Supreme Court has been protective of some speech, particularly religious speech. (See Justice Neil Gorsuch's opinions upholding a public-high-school football coach's right to hold group prayer on the fifty-yard line, and in favor of a wedding-Web-site designer who feared being forced to work for same-sex couples.) But it's not clear what the current Court would do when the desire to ban speech—or, in the question of book banning, to restrict access to certain ideas—is articulated as a parental right. We know, from the Dobbs decision, that the conservative Justices are not averse to overruling settled precedent, even with regard to a constitutional right. And what about the voices of fundamentalist religious groups who are certain to weigh in on behalf of bans? Will the Court grant deference to a religion-based desire to restrict the information that all public-school students can have access to? It may be that those who favor bans will find a more receptive bench now than they did four decades ago.
But I think this is mistaken, because there was no majority decision in Pico, no settled precedent on the subject, and no majority judgment that children have a right to receive information from a school library.
Rather, the Court split 4-1-4. Four Justices (led by Justice Brennan) took the view that "local school boards may not remove books from school library shelves simply because they dislike the ideas contained in those books." Four other Justices (led by Chief Justice Burger) expressly rejected this view (except in the narrow situation where the disagreement was based on pure partisanship, for instance if a Democrat-run board removed books because they were written by Republicans or because they praised Republicans). And the swing vote, Justice White, expressly refused to opine on this issue (emphasis added):
The District Court found that the books were removed from the school library because the school board believed them "to be, in essence, vulgar." Both Court of Appeals judges in the majority concluded, however, that there was … [an] unresolved factual issue[:] … the reason or reasons underlying the school board's removal of the books. I am not inclined to disagree with the Court of Appeals on such a fact-bound issue and hence concur in the judgment of affirmance. Presumably this will result in a trial and the making of a full record and findings on the critical issues.
The plurality seems compelled to go further and issue a dissertation on the extent to which the First Amendment limits the discretion of the school board to remove books from the school library. I see no necessity for doing so at this point. When findings of fact and conclusions of law are made by the District Court, that may end the case. If, for example, the District Court concludes after a trial that the books were removed for their vulgarity, there may be no appeal. In any event, if there is an appeal, if there is dissatisfaction with the subsequent Court of Appeals' judgment, and if certiorari is sought and granted, there will be time enough to address the First Amendment issues that may then be presented….
I thus prefer the course taken by the Court in [an earlier precedent on a different topic] …. The Court [in that case] expressly abjured issuing its advice on the legal issues involved…. The [precedent] turned on issues of statutory construction. It is even more important that we take a similar course … in this [case], which poses difficult First Amendment issues in a largely uncharted field. We should not decide constitutional questions until it is necessary to do so, or at least until there is better reason to address them than are evident here. I therefore concur in the judgment of affirmance.
Justice White thus concurred with Justice Brennan's opinion solely as to the propriety of remanding for a trial on whether the school board removed the books based on viewpoint or instead based on their being "in essence, vulgar" (which even the challengers "implicitly conceded" would be a permissible basis for removing the books, at least if they "were pervasively vulgar"). But he disagreed with Justice Brennan on the consequence of any such finding:
- Justice Brennan's view was that, if there was a finding that the removals were based on viewpoint, that would mean the removals violated the First Amendment.
- Justice White's view as that, if there was such a finding, "there will be time enough to address the First Amendment issues that may then be presented" (which echoes his conclusion that he saw "no necessity for" resolving those questions in his opinion).
What about lower courts? Two federal appellate courts have characterized the Brennan opinion as expressing the view of the Court, see Monteiro v. Tempe Union High School Dist. (9th Cir. 1998) and Turkish Coalition of Am., Inc. v. Bruininks (8th Cir. 2012).
But three other federal appellate courts have disagreed, and have recognized—I think correctly—that Pico didn't resolve the issue; e.g., Griswold v. Driscoll (1st Cir. 2010):
Pico's rule of decision, however, remains unclear; three members of the plurality recognized and emphasized a student's right to free enquiry in the library, but Justice Blackmun disclaimed any reliance on location and resorted to a more basic principle that a state may not discriminate among ideas for partisan or political reasons, and Justice White concurred in the judgment without announcing any position on the substantive First Amendment claim.
Likewise with Muir v. Alabama Ed. Television Comm'n (5th Cir. 1982), which concluded that in Pico "the Supreme Court decided neither the extent nor, indeed, the existence [or nonexistence], of First Amendment implications in a school book removal case," because "[t]he Fifth Member of the Court [Justice White] voting for the judgment expresses no opinion on the First Amendment issues." And likewise with ACLU of Florida v. Miami-Dade County School Bd. (11th Cir. 2009), which noted that the view that "school officials may not remove books from library shelves 'simply because they dislike the ideas contained in those books and seek by their removal to prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion'" was "the standard that failed to attract a majority in the Pico case."
The matter, then, is not clear. Lower courts may indeed themselves decide that viewpoint-based removals of books from school libraries violate the First Amendment, and they may find Justice Brennan's opinion to be persuasive. And schools may reasonably worry that this might happen, and might conclude that it's better to avoid that litigation. But courts and schools may instead conclude otherwise, and be more persuaded by Chief Justice Burger's dissent.
My own view is more in line with the dissent: I think a public school is entitled to decide which viewpoints to promote through its own library; school authorities can decide that their library will be a place where they provide books they recommend as particularly interesting/useful/enlightening/etc. The process of selecting library books is part of the government's own judgment about what views it wishes to promote; and the ability to reconsider selection decisions (including in response to pressure from the public, which is to say from the ultimate governors of the public schools) should go with the ability to make those decisions in the first place. To be sure, some such decisions may be foolish or narrow-minded, but they're not unconstitutional.
[The analysis in this post is adapted from earlier ones.]
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"The article claims that a prohibition on viewpoint-based removals of school library books is "settled law" announced by a "majority opinion." But that's not so."
Why would anyone expect the New Yorker to get it right?
In general, you should expect descriptions of court decisions in non-legally oriented MSM publications to be wrong.
The author of the piece that Eugene linked is a practicing lawyer at a leading national publication and writing a book on Pico. Eugene runs a partisan blog on a libertarian website that features more cranks than serious commentary.
"...that features more cranks than serious commentary."
Coming from you that is beyond rich.
Ok, so who's right?
(Also, I coulda swore that EV had a day job.)
I don't think either is wrong. I think that Bertoni is making one kind of point, given limited space, and Eugene is making a different one, with a different point of emphasis, without any space constraint.
Instead of lunging for credentialism, what about the substance?
Eugene provided the exact language in the opinion supporting his view on why there's no "majority opinion" or "precedent" on the question of removing books from a school library, as well as three follow-on appellate opinions that reached the same conclusion.
He also noted the circuit split on the issue, where a minority of appellate courts have read Pico the same way the author has.
That's a good deal more graceful and complete than the one-sided perspective in the article, don't you think?
I'm not "lunging for credentialism." I'm responding to TwIP's ad hominem.
I think Bertoni is over-stating the strength of Pico as "settled precedent," while Eugene is pushing for an aggressively narrow reading of Pico.
Eugene wants to make the point that upholding public school "book bans" would not require upsetting "settled precedent" because the question has not in fact been settled by the Supreme Court. But he does not explain how an opinion upholding public school "book bans" could then be reconciled with the actual 5-4 decision and outcome in Pico, which in fact affirmed the judgment that such book bans could in some circumstances violate the First Amendment. He then closes his argument by making a question-begging assertion about how the Court ought to settle the question.
I'm not sure that I agree that Eugene's post is more "graceful and complete," or any less "one-sided" than Bertoni's short piece. It takes more time to read, sure.
"But he does not explain how an opinion upholding public school “book bans” could then be reconciled with the actual 5-4 decision and outcome in Pico, which in fact affirmed the judgment that such book bans could in some circumstances violate the First Amendment. "
Because it was affirmed on the narrower ground provided by White, that the factual record should be developed before deciding the first amendment issues.
he does not explain how an opinion upholding public school “book bans” could then be reconciled with the actual 5-4 decision and outcome in Pico
Yes, he did. Justice White only affirmed the decision below because it required the resolution of a factual dispute. He did not express any opinion on when book bans may or may not be unconstitutional.
I wish this blog attracted smarter people.
There is no reason to remand a case for trial if no legal claim could be supported by any set of facts. White's vote clearly implies the belief that there might be some constitutional limits to "book bans" in school libraries; he just didn't want to articulate a constitutional standard without a better development of the facts.
Eugene takes this combination of votes and opinions to support his view, which is that there are no constitutional limits to how a school board may "ban" books from public school libraries. But if that position were consistent with White's views, he wouldn't have voted to affirm; he would have voted to reverse. Five votes, in other words, against Eugene's position, even though we don't have a clearly binding rule on what constitutional standard properly applies.
"I wish this blog attracted smarter people."
Why? You have enough trouble with the level of people it currently attracts.
"White’s vote clearly implies the belief that there might be some constitutional limits to “book bans” in school libraries; "
Sure. Or there might not be. The issue was unsettled then, and remained so after Pico.
"Eugene takes this combination of votes and opinions to support his view, which is that there are no constitutional limits to how a school board may “ban” books from public school libraries."
No he doesn't, the takes it to support the correct view, which is that there is "no settled precedent on the subject".
I think a more accurate description of the current state of the law is that, while one can defensibly make the case that there is no binding precedent from the Supreme Court that addresses when or whether school boards may "ban books" from school libraries, lower courts treat the Pico plurality opinion as at least persuasive on the question. While Eugene cites cases where the Courts of Appeal have "characterized" Pico one way or another, he cites no example where the court reached a conclusion that contradicts the plurality opinion in Pico.
Eugene is, in other words, advocating for a particular point of view. Not describing the state of law.
And - again - Eugene says more than that Pico doesn't set a binding standard on how the First Amendment applies to these kinds of "book bans." He says what he thinks to be the correct view - which is that school boards have no constitutional constraints, when deciding which books to keep in school libraries. If that were what White believed, there would have been no need for further factual development.
Could White be read to think that, even after full factual development, school boards would be permitted by the First Amendment to regulate content as they please? I am not sure that he could be. He says, for instance: "If, for example, the District Court concludes after a trial that the books were removed for their vulgarity, there may be no appeal." Thus implying that he believes it would be constitutional for the school board to remove books for vulgarity. This implies that there may be other kinds of removals that may or may not be constitutional. He doesn't say what they are or could be, and takes pains not to suggest how he'd evaluate them. He is trying to avoid a premature constitutional analysis. But if he truly believed that it was possible that no set of facts could be produced that would trigger constitutional protection - and he just wasn't sure yet whether to take that position officially - he would not have mentioned that vulgarity, at least, would be an "easy case" unworthy of appeal.
By my count, there are at least seven votes, probably eight, for the proposition that there are some limits on the discretion of school boards to determine what books belong in school libraries. The plurality (four votes) says a school board can choose not to allow a book in the library for reasons like vulgarity, quality, or educational suitability but not for narrow, partisan reasons, like not permitting books written by Democrats or black authors. Justice Rehnquist's dissent (three votes) "cheerfully concede[s]" the point, though it suggests that such decisions would be extreme and rare. Justice White's concurrence (one vote) would remand for factual development. But since the factual issue was whether the school board's decision was based on vulgarity and educational suitability or narrow, partisan hostility to ideas, a remand would be pointless unless it made a constitutional difference which reason drove the board's action.
The actual scope of Pico is, to say the least, unclear, but it does seem to stand at least for the proposition that some reasons for dumping or not acquiring certain library books implicate the First Amendment.
"By my count, there are at least seven votes, probably eight, for the proposition that there are some limits on the discretion of school boards to determine what books belong in school libraries."
Yeah, but per Marks the court's holding is the narrowest concurring view.
"He says what he thinks to be the correct view – which is that school boards have no constitutional constraints, when deciding which books to keep in school libraries. If that were what White believed, there would have been no need for further factual development."
But lower courts are under no obligation to try and guess what White believed.
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I wish this blog attracted smarter people. A judge expressly declining to decide something does not "clearly imply" that he has actually secretly decided it. That there "might" be limits does not mean that there are limits.
A judge expressly declining to decide something does not “clearly imply” that he has actually secretly decided it. That there “might” be limits does not mean that there are limits.
I said neither of these things.
I took it you said that Eugene supports no limits on banning books, but Pico forecloses that claim because White must support some limit or else he wouldn't voted to affirm.
It's not clear to me that either Eugene supports no limits (although he generally supports free reign based on viewpoints, there could be other limits) nor that White must support some limit (White could just be kicking the can down the road so he can decide on another day).
*rein
"Fabio Bertoni is general counsel of The New Yorker. He is working on a book about the Island Trees School District v. Pico case."
It's nice to see that Fabio is branching out into other areas of work.
The New Yorker didn't get it wrong. The author omitted a nuance that Eugene wanted to emphasize, because it serves Eugene's own conclusion.
"[The Supreme Court], in a majority decision written by Justice William Brennan, the Court invalidated the ban, echoing a prior ruling that students do not surrender their First Amendment rights “at the schoolhouse gate.” "
Well, they didn't invalidate the ban, and no one wrote a majority opinion. But that's not getting it wrong, that's nuance?
And then in Bong Hits for Jesus......
The language you cited is technically correct. There was a 5-4 decision. It affirmed the Second Circuit's reversal of the trial court, which sided with the school board. It "echoed" the Court's prior ruling in Tinker, which Brennan cites in his own opinion.
I appreciate that it's a loaded way of describing the actual "holding" in Pico. But it's not wrong. It just leads the reader in one direction, the same way that Eugene's non-rebuttal leads in another.
"It affirmed the Second Circuit’s reversal of the trial court, which sided with the school board."
And sent the case back for trial. It didn't invalidate squat.
By this ridiculous logic, the Court hardly invalidates much of anything.
What the hell are you talking about?
I made a statement of fact. If you disagree, please point out the parts of the decision that prove me wrong.
You made a 'technically correct practically useless' statement.
The Supreme Court *often* remands down for further trial. That does not mean they didn't invalidate anything in any but the most tedious procedural of senses.
You're claiming that it's practically useless to point out that SCOTUS didn't invalidate the ban? That's kinda the whole point, dude.
Yes, I am. The holding is what matters legally.
It’s like pointing out Brown v. Board didn’t desegregate schools.
Again, what are you talking about?
The holding in Brown invalidated school segregation policies across the country.
The (lack of) holding in Pico didn't invalidate squat.
Another proud graduate of the Kamala Harris School of Elocution.
It may surprise you to learn that many cases where the Court is said to "invalidate" some law or rule are really just like this - sent back to trial for further proceedings. They are legal conclusions relating to appeals from dismissals or summary judgments entered prior to trial.
Sigh. They could have invalidated the ban with one more vote, creating the precedent that the New Yorker claims that they send. But they didn't have one more vote. So they sent it back to trial court so they could maybe address the first amendment issues in the future.
IMO, it goes beyond a "loaded way", to outright being wrong, to claim there was a precedent for echoing Tinker. And, it's not nuance.
A 3-2 circuit split against the New Yorker's interpretation is not "nuance."
There isn't a "3-2 circuit split." Eugene is being badly intellectually dishonest here.
What Eugene actually said was: "Two federal appellate courts have characterized the Brennan opinion as expressing the view of the Court[.] But three other federal appellate courts have disagreed, and have recognized ... that Pico didn't resolve the issue."
He's right, as far as that statement goes - the opinions he cited do "characterize" Pico way or another. But we are not talking about a series of cases where plaintiffs challenged "book bans" and Pico was either held to apply, or not. We are talking about a number of different situations where Pico was "characterized" while discussing another set of facts entirely or as dicta. One of the cases Eugene describes as characterizing Pico as not articulating a binding rule applies the Brennan opinion's standard anyway, on its way to conclude that a plaintiff failed to clear their burden even under that standard.
There is, simply put, no "circuit split" here - not that Eugene has cited, anyway. He has offered up for readers various stray "characterizations" whose relevance to their respective contexts varies.
I'm sorry to say it, actually. I am accustomed to this level of intellectual dishonesty from David and Josh. I never thought I needed to review Eugene's work with the same degree of scrutiny. Guess that needs to change.
Get a life.
This seems like a bit of a weird pedantic exercise after conceding above that there is indeed no "settled precedent" for the Supreme Court to "reverse" as the New Yorker author disingenuously stated. However you want to pick at it, three appellate courts view Pico as not having established such a precedent, while two others have.
But if stuff like this helps you work through the anger that for whatever reason this subject seems to have provoked, keep on typing.
Yeah, it's really just nuts, why would anyone care about the freedom of speech, right? Or be angry that a once-hawkish First Amendment scholar writes more often these days about how to restrict speech, rather than to protect it?
There's really no need for the phony handwringing. There are all sorts of limits to a pure and unadulterated 1A that you cheerfully recognize when they suit you. What sort of filth you're allowed to expose my children to during the school day is just another one of those limits.
Why don't you start with something I've actually said, instead of just assuming I hold a bunch of positions you dislike.
Weirdly, that's exactly what I just did. If your positions are somehow different than the words you use to express them, it's incumbent on you to explain those differences rather than for me to guess what you're thinking.
No, it is not incumbent upon me to rebut your strawmen and red herrings.
I am happy to engage anyone, if they leave a thoughtful comment. I'm not as interested in engaging with people who say things like, "There are all sorts of limits to a pure and unadulterated 1A that you cheerfully recognize when they suit you. What sort of filth you’re allowed to expose my children to during the school day is just another one of those limits."
Particularly when I have no idea what "limits" you think I "cheerfully recognize" or what kinds of "filth" you think it is I feel your children ought to be "exposed" to. You can't even string this statement together coherently; how am I supposed to respond to it like it's a real criticism?
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Ah, but you yourself know what you think and feel about these things (if you're not just here to bitch, anyway, which I'm seriously starting to contemplate). Again, not my role to read your mind.
That aside, I'm not really sure why you're suggesting that sort of detail would matter. The broad strokes of what you've said are that a) you see the ability for K-12 school librarians to place controversial books on their shelves as a free speech issue; b) there's no principled limit once you accept that some curation is necessary; c) that Eugene should be writing about protecting speech rather than suppressing it; and d) Eugene (and I presume the rest of us as well) should shut up and be instructed by "experts" on how library curation should work.
So your sudden demand that I consider the specifics of where you think the content line should be are an irrelevant distraction since 1) if you do agree there's a valid line somewhere, then you would be arguing about where it is rather than pounding the free speech button as you have been; and 2) under your own guidance you should be shutting up and swallowing the supposed experts' directives on the subject as well.
Ah, but you yourself know what you think and feel about these things (if you’re not just here to bitch, anyway, which I’m seriously starting to contemplate). Again, not my role to read your mind.
You... were just purporting to do so.
I don't know what argument you think you're having here. You entered this thread to accuse me of engaging in a "pedantic" exercise out of "anger." Now you are just taking potshots at my responses.
"Settled law" is only used when the law is not settled, and you're pretending otberwise for rhetorical purposes.
No law is settled, not fully and forever, in a democracy whose constitution itself is up for modification by supermajority democracy.
And the closest thing to "settled law", stuff that hasn't changed for decades to a century, and is agreed by all sides, nobody would ever bother to describe as such.
So, your point is, it depends on what the meaning of "is," is?
Way back then, “book bans” entailed removal of books from school/public libraries. Now, the library associations count as “bans” every compliant filed to remove or re-shelve books in an age-restricted section. Ten complaints asking to re-shelve one title are ten “bans”. Said banned books can be found anywhere else on Earth, in hard copy or virtual format, should they be shelved in an age-restricted section of a library.
'Book bans' are like 'assault rifles'; made up propaganda phrases to advance the democrat agenda.
(and no one cares what lies the new Yorker prints)
"a state may not discriminate among ideas for partisan or political reasons"
Unless this means only "equal time for red books and blue books", I don't see a judicially manageable standard. Sexuality sure acts political these days.
I remember when _Brave New World_ was controversial because of the unmarried heterosexual sex.
I don't think it's that tricky.
No First Amendment issue when a decision not to carry a book is based on the book's lack of literary or academic merit or importance, expense, or space.
When a decision not to carry a book (or to remove a book) is based on the content of the book, permissible considerations would be keyed to the needs, preferences, and maturity of the intended library users. A sexually-explicit book doesn't belong in a library intended for young children; an important novel doesn't belong in a math library. Impermissible considerations would be those unrelated to those kinds of factors, and based instead on the curator's own views or those of the community. An age-appropriate book on religion, or on race or gender issues, should not be excluded just because it vaguely "promotes" Christianity in a manner the curator doesn't like, and a book about "gay" penguins should not be excluded just because it vaguely "normalizes" same-sex relationships in a manner the community doesn't like.
Not every legal rule needs to be neatly reducible to an "if..., then" statement. It just requires work.
I've had the "pleasure" of listening to angry parents read from some of these "age-appropriate" books.
If your complaint is that they allow sexually-explicit "straight" books while "banning" sexually-explicit "gay" books, then the answer to that "equal protection violation" is to ban the sexually-explicit straight books.
The problem is that this privileges the first library staff member to consider the book over every other interested person. The initial step is always going to be deciding whether to order the book in the first place. A negative decision in that regard is always going to be an unreviewable exercise of discretion by some individual, who can easily accept or reject it based on the considerations you call impermissible. But once a single librarian makes the decision to order it, all of the sudden it becomes impossible to remove it for those same considerations.
So you're saying that the problem is - libraries will have too many books?
IANAA but why isn't Bong Hits for Jesus the ruling authority here? Its 20 years newer and not fractured the way that Pico is, and it addresses the student rights v. admin authority issue which really is what is involved here.
That case was about speech by students, not about books in libraries. If the books in question have a primary message of advocacy for illegal drug use, then the principles of Morse v. Frederick imply that the schools can refrain from stocking them (because the schools can go further and punish students for such speech), but usually that is not the basis for singling out these books. A book might be alleged to feature illegal drug use, but that would usually be incidental to the plot rather than the primary message of the book.
"The process of selecting library books is part of the government's own judgment about what views it wishes to promote; and the ability to reconsider selection decisions (including in response to pressure from the public, which is to say from the ultimate governors of the public schools) should go with the ability to make those decisions in the first place. To be sure, some such decisions may be foolish or narrow-minded, but they're not unconstitutional."
I always like to apply the "...as opposed to what?" test to these kinds of conclusions to see if they are reasonable. So in this case: we can either let the libraries exercise their own judgments, facing the pressures of their own communities, or ... what?
- Remove the ability of libraries to exercise judgment?
- Remove the ability of the community to express its opinions?
- Remove any requirement that books be age-appropriate?
None of those alternatives sound good or even reasonable, at least to me.
Sometimes I think people who make their living through the law try too hard to remove considerations such as reasonableness from consideration. Just give us the cold, hard facts that can be proved or disproved! But this is a mistake, because there is a lot of discretion surrounding the exercise of the law. It is not all cut and dried.
The law is in service to humanity. It's job is to improve society. Where needed and permitted, it is absolutely proper to balance and prioritize competing rights and responsibilities.
My own view is more in line with the dissent: I think a public school is entitled to decide which viewpoints to promote through its own library...
Eugene, do you have an argument for this position that doesn't beg the question?
I would challenge you to weave this position into a doctrinally-coherent theory of the First Amendment as applied to public schools and faculty speech. This territory is fairly worked-over, with lots of data points, and I would describe the lay of the land as generally erring on the side of protection of speech. Apart from a fairly narrow right of the government to set curriculum and courses of study in K-12 schools, there is an acknowledgment throughout the cases of free speech values. Students have free speech rights within classrooms; teachers have free speech rights outside the classroom and, at a certain point, within the classroom and in their scholarship; student groups and public fora are broadly protected.
So where do libraries fit in? You say: well, some curation is necessary, and it obviously follows that the curation reflects the judgment of the state as to what viewpoints ought to be shared and promoted, so the state should be permitted to control what's held in libraries the same way it controls curricula. But there's no principled limit to this argument; there's no reason why it shouldn't apply with equal force to what university professors publish or say in their own classrooms, or what student groups the universities choose to sponsor, or what rules ought to govern their public amenities, and so on. It simply doesn't mesh with everything else that we know about free speech in public education.
Moreover, it's difficult to defend on its own terms, because few people would view libraries as curated in this way. A law library will focus its collection on legal subjects, but no one would view the inclusion of this book or exclusion of that book as "expressing" the view of the government curator as to what views ought to be promoted, or not. When you look for a book in a library's catalogue and do not find it, do you conclude, "Ah, well, that must not be a book worth reading then," or do you go up to the interlibrary loan counter and order it?
To be sure, it's not a simple matter to distinguish between curation based on collecting important resources within a limited space and curation that is based on principles anathema to good library curation. (I don't think it's too difficult, though - you look at a record and see whether the content-based curation is motivated by an objective consideration of the relevance of the work to the library's intended users, or rather by the curator's own views on the subject matter.) But to wave the whole thing off as merely "government speech" is deeply problematic and corrosive of free speech in our public schools.
Here's a thought, Eugene - shocking, I realize - maybe you could consult with an actual expert on the question? There are people whose profession is to think about the curation of libraries, you know? What is with your continued need to opine confidently on topics that you refuse to educate yourself about?
Substituting for the Rev. Kirkland today with your hard on for EV and this site?
If you can't discern a difference between what I've written and Kirkland's usual schtick, then you're far more stupid than I'd previously gathered.
Do you guys object to getting to the point -- which is that the proprietor is a disaffected, antisocial, partisan hypocrite whose faux libertarian blog cultivates an audience of delusional white nationalists, half-educated misogynists, obsolete antisemites, backwater Islamophobes, superstitious gay-bashers, deplorable transphobes, vote-suppressing Republican racists, etc.?
Others are welcome to wallow in euphemisms ("traditional values," "conservative values," "color-blind," etc.) and political correctness. I call a bigot a bigot. That seems to bother the bigots at this blog.
And Methodists.
Methodists don't like it when bigots are described and recognized as bigots?
It's not viewpoints as much as curriculum, and then issues of cognitive development. The latter is why we don't show porn to 3rd Graders...
Didn't he already address your point about what limits should be placed on the ability to curate content with this line:
"The process of selecting library books is part of the government's own judgment about what views it wishes to promote; and the ability to reconsider selection decisions (including in response to pressure from the public, which is to say from the ultimate governors of the public schools) should go with the ability to make those decisions in the first place."
The limitations, then, not being set externally and formally, but locally and organically.
Is this comment intended to respond to something I've said?
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Why would one ask professional library curators about what the first amendment provides for?
Eugene is having difficulty distinguishing between the kind of necessary curation that goes into building or maintaining any kind of library, and the sorts of content- or viewpoint-based distinctions that people are trying to describe as "book bans" prohibited by the First Amendment. He sees no meaningful distinction, and so would treat library curation the same way he would treat government speech or the setting of public school curriculum.
My suggestion is that, if he were to consult an expert, they might be able to explain how they would navigate this very distinction. I am sure it would not be a novel ethical or practical question for them, to distinguish between inevitably necessary curation and the kinds of subjective, content-based curation decisions that can weaken a good collection.
Isn't Eugene arguing the Constitution doesn't care about the distinction (whether or not a sound policy should do so)? I think we all agree that content-neutral curation is permissible. But, the normative judgment about content-based (or perhaps viewpoint-based) curation comes down to whether you think these library books are closer to curriculum or availability of general knowledge.
I am not sure why you feel the need to leave multiple comments responding to me that just demonstrate you haven't read the last paragraph of the OP.
What did I say that makes you think I didn't read the last paragraph in the OP?
You have left a couple of comments where you say that Eugene didn't clearly say what he clearly said, or where you seem to be having some difficulty understanding the actual progression of his argument. Seems like, if you'd read the last paragraph of the OP, you wouldn't be picking some of these points with me.
I'm not going to dissect your comments and explain where they go wrong.
In other words, you can't point out anything I wrote that backs your claim.
I can. I am choosing not to.
An earlier draft of my comment actually copied your comments and began spelling out my response explaining where you're going wrong. When I saw how I would need to spend a paragraph or two explaining to you why a single sentence was mistaken, I concluded that it was a futile exercise.
It's the classic internet conundrum - explaining to a reading comprehension-challenged person exactly where his reading comprehension has failed is not likely to resolve the dispute.
"I think a public school is entitled to decide which viewpoints to promote through its own library; school authorities can decide that their library will be a place where they provide books they recommend as particularly interesting/useful/enlightening/etc."
This strikes me as quite correct.
Suppose a librarian has one too many glasses of wine and cancels the library's subscription to NYT and WaPO and substitutes subscriptions to Pravda, Izvestia, and the ISIS Daily News (AFAIK, that last one is fake). The elected school board ought to be able to direct the librarian to reverse the decision. The remedy for parents who prefer Pravda is to elect a different school board, not going to court and insist that the librarian's late night drunken decision is forever unreviewable.
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"Finally and, perhaps, ominously, Burger asserts that there is no constitutional requirement that schools maintain libraries at all. "The board," he wrote, "could wholly dispense with the school library, so far as the First Amendment is concerned.""
I'm not wise enough to accurately predict in detail how the concept of libraries will evolve, but I have a pretty strong sense that dead tree books are not the wave of the future. Even among my geezer friends, my preference for paper books is an outlier. Our local library still has shelves of old fogey books, but they also subscribe to various e-book vendors. So to at least some degree, the decision about whether to have a copy of X available has been outsourced to those vendors.
This trajectory seems likely to happen, whether 'ominous' or not.
"“Finally and, perhaps, ominously, Burger asserts that there is no constitutional requirement that schools maintain libraries at all. "
Why is this ominous?
You'd have to ask the person who characterized it that way, Justice Burger.
Since he is long dead, I'll offer a guess: he characterized it that way in 1982, which was long before the internet and e-books. And it does seem that a school without a library, or the internet, might well end up providing a sub-standard education.
My parents bought a set of encyclopedias shortly after I was born, and we grew up referring to them, but that was a luxury that many - I suspect most - kids of the day didn't enjoy. I think that a lot of my classmates did not have any practical access to books other than the library. That prospect does sound ominous.
Today, with near universal access to the internet, the situation may be different. However many thousands of books my school library had, that is dwarfed by what is freely available today.
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Read more carefully. Burger didn't characterize it as ominous. Fabio Bertoni did.
Indeed so! I will self-criticize at tonight's Airing of Grievances for my error.
The primary viewpoints librarians like to promote is 'what book would appeal to this library user?' and 'how do we make sure we have access to as many books as possible to satisfy the reading interests of our users?'
Of course, that works both ways. What's the doctrinally consistent theory that allows professors academic freedom in the classroom (except for things like religious proselytization and, presumably, not teaching the subject you were hired to teach, or not showing up), while denying the same rights to K-12 teachers? Could a government create an institution to express its own viewpoint to adults if it didn't call it a university?
In general, the idea of providing first amendment rights to government officials speaking as part of their government function is incoherent.
Stupid commenting system
Of course, that works both ways. What’s the doctrinally consistent theory that allows professors academic freedom in the classroom (except for things like religious proselytization and, presumably, not teaching the subject you were hired to teach, or not showing up), while denying the same rights to K-12 teachers?
K-12 public schools are set up and funded by the government to teach children basic knowledge and skills they need to go on and be functioning adults, whatever path they choose. So, the three R's, basically. They thus have the authority to dictate curriculum and classroom speech.
With higher education, in contrast, states are funding something different - they are creating environments for the development of scholarship, the discovery of "truth", research, critical inquiry, and so on. Thus, they are intentionally creating a kind of intellectual space that is free from government intrusion, the same way that creating a public plaza creates a "public forum" within which the state cannot regulate the viewpoints expressed.
Those two guideposts provide the framework for evaluating other decisions about state management of public education, including things like courses of study and majors offered in higher education, and libraries in the K-12 and higher education context. Are these decisions tied to the state's interest in establishing a baseline education level for its citizens? Or are they tied rather to the state's interest in establishing institutions where free inquiry reigns?
Sure, that's how the education system is largely set up, but where is the argument that the first amendment requires that education be set up that way?
And it's not even universally true in higher education. Classes like Accounting, for example, often aren't about discovering truth, but teaching rules. Why should an Accounting teacher have a first amendment right to teach that office furniture can be depreciated over five years, for example?
Sure, that’s how the education system is largely set up, but where is the argument that the first amendment requires that education be set up that way?
I don't think I'm making that argument. If the state were to set up public trade schools or more narrowly-designed training programs, for instance, I'd probably agree that there are fewer free speech issues with the state dictating course of study or specific curricula, even if students/participants are generally going to be adults.
Never having studied accounting, I can't speak to the free speech concerns in that context. If I were to analogize it to tax law, I'd suppose that someone teaching accounting should have a fair amount of freedom to discuss alternative approaches, critique existing methods, explore interdisciplinary questions, and the like. I would also assume that any professor teaching "accounting" at a collegiate level likely has other academic pursuits and discussions that could be explored within and outside of the classroom.
I am not going to do a research project to discuss the issue, but even in the cases that Eugene cites (as citing Pico), the constitutional question turns on whatever it is the state has decided to set up. The courts look to the forum and the context and consider whether "free speech" principles properly apply, as a limit to some manner of content-based regulation. If it's an elementary school classroom, one standard applies. If it's a philosophy class in college, another might. Other cases require an evaluation of the activity in question.
There is nothing incoherent about it, the State Speech Doctrine says that government has its own speech rights.
It's well established that a municipality may fly a rainbow flag without offering equal time. And it follows that a public or school library can curate it's library to promote its own message, or suppress messages it does not want to promote.
My own view is more in line with the dissent: I think a public school is entitled to decide which viewpoints to promote through its own library; school authorities can decide that their library will be a place where they provide books they recommend as particularly interesting/useful/enlightening/etc. The process of selecting library books is part of the government's own judgment about what views it wishes to promote; and the ability to reconsider selection decisions (including in response to pressure from the public, which is to say from the ultimate governors of the public schools) should go with the ability to make those decisions in the first place.
That from EV is unwise. It takes little or no account of how public school libraries are typically managed. It is even less realistic in its vague suppositions about where public school library collection challenges typically come from.
On the one hand, such challenges are more apt to come from factions than from the community as a whole. Even when faction members get elected to school boards—in elections notorious for low participation by the public at large—faction members' views cannot wisely be accepted as representative voices of the community. It is commonplace for school committee candidates to get elected whose interest in public schools does not extend beyond an eye to incapacitate the schools, and slash their budgets.
Given the inefficiency of the politics of public school governance, that fact is not sufficient to support any conclusion that such a radical goal was the will of the electorate. Until a community has demonstrably made a broadly-supported political choice to get rid of public education altogether, that factional kind of anti-school authority should generally be rejected as more damaging to community interests than otherwise.
On the other hand, if typical school library management process is followed, school library collections are managed by policy and consensus, with an eye to maintain collections which both support curriculum, and encourage reading more generally. To accomplish that multiple stakeholders, especially including faculty, must be contacted routinely for input. Libraries cannot support course work adequately if they do not make regular input from teachers a focus of their efforts. Likewise, library professionals would be remiss, and likely would fail personally in their careers, if they did not keep school administrators fully informed, and thus fully involved, with collection management policies.
The collective faculty and administration of a community school system will typically be a group more politically diverse than anti-public-school advocates depict them to be. In most communities, public school teachers are not an elite cadre—more the opposite. They tend to come from blue collar families, and to live in blue collar neighborhoods. Arguably, school administrators and teachers in many communities, taken as a group, will represent community political interests more accurately—and respond to shifts in community views more attentively—than will the far smaller assembly of elected school authorities.
That may explain why anti-public-school factional interests respond with such hostility to the educational community. Because it is better connected, and better politically supported among the community at large, the educational community creates a political bulwark strong enough to frustrate less-representative factional attacks.
Whatever Professor Volokh may think about, "the government's own judgment about what views it wishes to promote," it remains questionable that crackpot factionalists who contrived to win a school board election will turn out to be an accurate source to say what government's judgment is. More likely, the far more numerous faculty and administration of the school system, working together, by consensus, and informed in non-political conversations by day-to-day contact with parents, will judge it better.
That's a lot of words to say that the opinion of some unelected library employee should count more than the school board's accountability to the public they represent.
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It literally is.
Neiporent, I am getting used to your hyper-rationalist political interpretations, while you would be wiser to avoid them. Experience, not reason, and not text, is the proper test of politics.
Root cause analysis:
Ban public schools instead.
I think we'll keep the public schools and instead continue to replace the un-American, worthless, right-wing misfits concentrated in our rural and southern areas.
What I know about this particular issue I learned from past Prof. Volokh comments and reading Pico - there is some precedent that the 1A has some implications regarding the regulation of schools by higher authorities.
The particular contours of this right to academic freedom are not yet specified by the Court, and lower courts have yet to come up with specifics either.
Beyond that, reasonable minds can differ. Prof. Volokh seems not in the mood to differ at the moment.
Huh? What did he say that makes you think he's not in the mood to differ?
Don't stop him; he's on a roll.
The article in the OP is within that characterization (as some lower courts agree), but Prof. Volokh is still picking a fight with it as though it were not reasonable.
That seems less generous than his usual mein.
Neither of the lower courts EV cites engaged in any Marks analysis. It seems like they were simply mistaken about the holding.
I *love* Marks analysis (and Marx analysis!).
It's so janky without guidance.
But the NYT isn't going to go there; it's reductive but I understand why.
It can be "janky" I suppose, but is there anything less than straightforward about its application here?
There's a lot of room for debate about the proper scope of a right to academic freedom in public colleges and universities. (Lower courts are basically uniform in concluding there is no such right, at least as to classroom teaching, in K-12 schools.)
But whether the Brennan opinion was a majority opinion, whether it creates settled precedent on the First Amendment issue, and whether it recognizes a First Amendment right to receive ideas in the context of K-12 school libraries is not, I think, subject to debate. Just read Pico for yourself, count the number of votes that endorsed Justice Brennan's views, and see what Justice White had to say about the matter.
EV, your second paragraph offers little to inform a wise court on how to resolve legal ambiguity you insist continues. The first paragraph at least introduces a more productive discussion.
Whether or not there is an enforceable constitutional right to academic freedom in K-12 schools, do you suppose it is wiser to choose policy tailored to preclude academic freedom, or wiser to choose policy tailored to promote it?
Or, to put it another way, how wise is it to design school management policies which advantage ideologically-minded minoritarians who aim to seize control of school curricula?
ChatGPT strikes again?
I hope not, the article says the guy is working on a book on Pico.
ChatGPT, what was the holding in pico v. island trees school district?
The case you are referring to is "Pico v. Island Trees School District," a landmark Supreme Court case in 1982. In this case, the Supreme Court addressed the issue of the authority of school boards to remove books from school libraries.
The Island Trees School District in New York had removed several books from its school libraries because they disagreed with the content or deemed it inappropriate. The books included works by authors such as Kurt Vonnegut and Richard Wright.
The Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, ruled in favor of the students (Pico and others) and held that the school board's removal of the books violated the students' First Amendment rights to receive information. The Court found that school officials could not remove books from library shelves simply because they disagreed with the ideas or content contained in those books. This decision affirmed the principle that students have constitutional rights within the school environment, including the right to access a variety of ideas and information.
The Pico decision established an important precedent regarding the First Amendment rights of students in public schools and the limitations on the authority of school boards to censor educational materials.
Lol. Wow.
"Wow," and so what? You looking forward to an internet dominated by authoritative looking fakes, turned out at nearly no cost, by purpose built robots? If not, what policies do you suppose might help prevent that result?
"You looking forward to an internet dominated by authoritative looking fakes, turned out at nearly no cost, by purpose built robots?"
Sigh. The fake doesn't seem to be much better than the version produced by the New Yorker. That's the point.
Twelve, it's silly to fight the hypothetical, and then insist that something else is the topic the hypothetical should have addressed. Especially if you offer nothing to suggest whether or not the hypothetical might plausibly come to pass.
By the way, what you say is the point is unlikely to be an accurate estimate of the capacity of typical New Yorker readers to critique the ChatGPT example on offer above. Outside their own areas of personal expertise, consumers of media, at all levels of experience and sophistication, routinely get duped by features such as plausibly recognizable reporting formats. On the internet that problem gets reinforced by an impression readers form that their prompts, searches, and cross-critiques constitute a reliable means to do original research.
That is a natural misimpression. After all, it was their own agency which seemed to control discovery and collation of the findings. It is hard to imagine anything more effective to suppress self-protective habitual skepticism. Alas, in an age of surveillance marketing and algorithm-tailored personal content feeds, any such predisposition is pure quicksand.
Given that as a premise, here is the original question again, slightly re-cast: What policies do you suppose might help prevent the public life of the nation from sinking into the quicksand?
At some point, we need to throw our hands in the air and allow local school boards to decide what books are carried in the library.
Maybe one school district wants their children's library full of books celebrating gay relationships, while banning Mein Kampf, while another school district wants nothing but Christian authors, while banning Karl Marx. That what school board elections are about. The courts have better things to do than review every single instance of a school library removing a book.
The books are always available on Amazon, online, and in local books stores everywhere. So calling these "bans" isn't really an honest description. Taxpayers do have the right to demand accountability for how school funds are being spent.
I prefer Longtobefree's "root cause" solution (see above). But, as long as there are public schools, this is the right approach.
"At some point, we need to throw our hands in the air and"
...and wave them about like we just don't care?
Just like Titus Andronicus!
Perhaps others had very different grammar and secondary school experiences than I did, but from my own experience, I think the whole debate is so wildly out of proportion to the importance of the issue. Like, what students voluntarily even go to a school library?
The concern may seem misplaced, but the standards articulated in the K-12 context tend to creep into the higher education context, and into the public employee context, and (we're seeing now) the public contracting context.
The "state curricula" line of reasoning is closely tied to the "state speech" line of cases. The wrong decision in this context could start to unravel a whole line of protections for free speech when dealing with the government.
Perhaps indeed. My children live for the weekly library day.
Better students.
I notice a tendency to simply misstate court decisions.
Comsider this headlime in ox, “The Supreme Court will decide whether to ban mifepristone.” In fact, it denied AHM’s petition requesting it to do that, and instead entertained the FDA’s petition asking it to clear its 2021 expansion of the original approval.
https://www.vox.com/scotus/2023/12/13/23992173/supreme-court-abortion-ban-mifepristone-danco-fda-alliance-hippocratic-medicine
I agree with Professor Volokh. The Constitution obviously doesn’t require public libraries to hold lotteries to select what books to include. It permits them to consider what content they want to have when makijg these decisions.
And the minute it’s conceded that public libraries can consider content when it comes to what books go into the library, they can consider content when it comes to what books go out. The Constitution doesn’t require libraries to remain closed to new books once full, and it doesn’t require them to decide what books to remove by lottery.
Eugene didn't make any argument regarding the general public library, only the K-12 public school library. He might believe the general public library must remain viewpoint neutral in both its decisions on what to include and what to remove.
Books such as “All Boys Aren’t Blue” contain pictures of boys fellating men and discussing it. These images serve a purpose: they serve to desensitize children to various forms of exploitive sexual activity. Is there any limit to what can be placed in front of children in a school library if the flag of sexual liberation is waved?
You can be sure that kids in China, India, and other of our competitors are not wasting time on this. It is no wonder we keep falling further and further behind in the acquisition of real skills.
...or in the case of some just being canceled by the publishers?
"Books aren’t being ordered by authorities to be removed from libraries because of their content?"
From public libraries? Sure. So what? Under your reasoning removing a college engineering textbook from the children's library would be "book banning".
It happens, but it's not a book ban, it's a government entity curating its own speech.
Librarians are exercising government speech both when they choose which books to buy, and which books to remove.
It's a job responsibility, and it's perfectly reasonable that elected or appointed library boards or school boards supervise that function because they are the official reps of the entity which is speaking.
"These people"? Nice.
It must be wonderful to be you and never be wrong.
I would be more impressed if you showed us that he was wrong on this issue.
BTW, many Jan 6 defendants were held without bail for years. Many in solitary confinement. And for some strange reason, the ACLU wasn't concerned about this.
A better example is Herbert Hunter's _History of Explosives_. I've never read it but understand that he discusses how early explosives were made and the various things that went wrong, often very wrong.
It's something that belongs in a college library as you want civil engineers to read it, as they will be using explosives, but it doesn't belong in a middle school library where intrepid 14-year-olds may decide to see what they can build in the backyard.
Leftism?
It can be called many different things. What's your point?
Thanks, that sounded interesting, I just ordered a copy. $15, pretty spendy for me! It's in the public domain, but alas not in the Internet Archive, so it's only available to kids who can scrape up $15.
The author is 'J Herbert Hunter' FWIW.
(To my personal FBI agent: Merry Christmas!!)
(to all, Happy Festivus! We're going to a celebration later today. I negotiated an exemption to the Trial of Strength with our host; I'm getting too old for that)
OK, but what does that have to do with whether the first amendment prevents the government from advancing its own viewpoints through the curation of its own libraries?
Or were your comments an attempt at question-begging?
This applies in spades to K-12 schools. Many parents are not fully satisfied with the curriculum at their local public schools, and would prefer to send their children to private schools. But it's not always feasible. Maybe parents have some first-amendment rights over public school curriculums?
Agreed, "'you can always buy it elsewhere" is pretty weak sauce. Reminds me of "you can always build your own internet". A lot of the things we own in common are only affordable because the expense is distributed.
But not every book is appropriate to every age, and I do think it is important to protect children's development by restricting their access. Children are impressionable, in some respects quite resilient, but in others they can be damaged by too-early exposure to topic before they are emotionally ready to deal with them.
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That may be a good policy argument, but it's not a legal one.
It's 'The Airing of Grievances'
The First Amendment and the Constitution are intended to protect everyone. All lives (and rights) matter.
Huh?
"I agree with some age appropriate rules, ..."
Such as? Should books with explicit of graphic sexual content (gay or straight) be available to young children?
Edit still not working: or not "of".
Better question is: is it? Beause you and the people behind these bans lie like smelly carpets.
Even better question is: what about the hundreds? thousands? of books without even a hint of sexual content that you want banned? Because 'sexual content' is just a bad faith stalking horse by religious cranks and right-wing fash.
It seems there are some splinter sects that differ on the details of the liturgy.
Did edit just start working?
Nope.
Sigh. That's not what Longtobefree said.
And are you referring to the four-vote Brennen opinion? Why shouldn't I read the four dissents instead?
Too much eggnog.
What’s your point?
"He said it’s made up propaganda,"
No he didn't.
And I didn't ask about the opinions, I asked what your comments had to do with the issue.
No. If they provide a something like a room to the public, they can't engage in viewpoint discrimination.
Library meeting rooms are designated public fora. Library shelves are not. And, no, it would not be accurate to describe what the library did in such a hypo as "group banning."
"The Libertarian Party has been banned in New York!"
"Holy shit, you mean that they removed its candidates from the ballot? Dissolved the party? Criminalized membership?"
"No, they just said it can't meet at the library."
Who said there wasn't?
Of course they should!
Now, the voters may indeed decide that they are happy with the decisions being made at, say, the water treatment plant. But if they aren't, of course they can tell the people running it to run it differently, or elect a new city council to tell them to run it differently, or hire new staff, or whatever.
If a librarian dumps all the books on natural selection and replaces them with books on Lysenkoism, should the parents defer to the librarian's expertise?
If the police department keeps kicking down the wrong doors and racking up big judgements, and the police chief - the hired expert - says 'I don't see a problem', must the voters defer to his expertise? They may be amateurs, but they are the people whose A)doors are getting kicked in and B)paying the judgements.
That the clueless amateurs in the population get to hold the ultimate decision making power[1] - and bear the consequences of their inexpert choices - is the very essence of democracy. If they don't hold that power, it's not a democracy.
[1]subject to the constitution, until/unless they amend it
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Again: whether they should is a policy question, not a legal question. Nobody thinks that it violates anyone's rights for the public to vote for gravel roads rather than letting engineers decide.
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Can a school board in a blue state mandate that any book saying that being gay can be cured with therapy or that there's no such thing as gender identity or that marriage is only between a man in a woman or that school segregation was great not be on the shelves?
The Pico dissent said the school can't ban books because they praised Republicans.
I would think the constitutional case against banning books in the general public library is stronger than in the public school library because the latter is more likely to be viewed as controlling curriculum and hence government speech.
You're just looking for arguments to makie banning books ok. See, it's ok if the book is banned in this particular way. Please ignore the minority extermist well-funded crackpots with their own odd sex-lives and alleged sexual assault demanding the books be banned.
I, for one, would argue that a school board should not be able to do that, not for the reasons you've specifically cited.
I think that a school board should be able to reject or "ban" books that are only pseudo-scientific, express fringe points of view, are not widely regarded as reliable or noteworthy, etc. Those might pick up books advocating conversion therapy or rejecting "gender identity" (your lack of facility with the terminology is telling - "gender identity" is of course a thing, just like gravity and magnetism is; whether it is something that can be understood as independent of sexual identity is what is in current cultural dispute), but that wouldn't be the reason they're rejected.
I would say that any frequently-cited, rigorously-researched, etc., book arguing for the merits of conversion therapy, opposing the recognition of trans identity or the full equality of trans people, etc., ought to be included in public libraries. If, perhaps, for no reason other than to facilitate their rebuttal. That's what libraries are for.
How many is "many"?
Uh, which Jan 6 defendants were held without bail for years? Please name names.
I am neither legally nor morally responsible for what irresponsible parents permit *their* children to do in *their* homes.
I am responsible for what they do in my school.
I'm not going to provide them this book, nor am I going to tell them it exists. Nor the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) which has pages of full color, actual size photographs of all commonly prescribed drugs, including Schedule II ("narcotic") drugs. (Notice that I'm not providing links to either books, nor an ISBN number, and I'm presuming it's adults reading this. Find the books yourself, it's not on me....)
Let the FBI go have a chat with their parents -- that might actually do some good, not that I trust the competence of the FBI but maybe it might get the attention of parents who really do (sorta) love their children and might just wake them up.
The meeting rooms are a limited public forum once the school agrees to let the public use them. It is not settled law whether the stacks are even though the public is allowed to use the books. A key difference might be the former is not intended to advocate for the school's viewpoint while the latter might (but arguably, might not).
Correct. The meeting rooms are public fora; the shelves are not. But if the meeting room was used only for speakers that the government itself hired, rather than the general public, then it could in fact choose those speakers based on their messages.
I doubt there is a principled way to distinguish between "pseudo-scientific" and "rigorously-researched." You would probably end up with the judgment always aligning with the desired policy outcome.
The frequency of citations is an interesting idea that might be workable (I doubt it), but it's not generally applicable. For example, the government couldn't ban bookstores from selling works that are not widely regarded as reliable.
"Notice that I’m not providing links to either books, nor an ISBN number,..."
You'd be surprised how many kids these days know how to google 'Physician's Desk Reference'. Those that can't do that can probably find a copy at their library. Our local library has a copies, and since you like Maine I checked the libraries in Augusta and Portland, and they both have copies. Used copies on Bookfinder are $8 for the 2004 edition.
"...and I’m presuming it’s adults reading this."
Not exactly sure what you think is stopping kids from reading this.
It's also worth remembering that today's pseudo-science can become tomorrow's mainstream consensus. If you go back far enough, see Galileo/Copernicus/etc.
More recently, I remember geology in high school. I had stumbled on Wegener's 1915 book proposing the theory of continental drift. With the arrogance of a 16 year old I was sure Wegener was right, while my geology teacher was not convinced. Since then it has become very mainstream, but at the time geologists were pretty evenly divided; the evidence that tipped the balance hadn't come in yet.
I got the book at the library. I'm glad they didn't exclude books by crackpots like Wegener, because he eventually proved to be correct.
I doubt there is a principled way to distinguish between “pseudo-scientific” and “rigorously-researched.”
One of the cases that Eugene cited considered a book that was banned because it was not sufficiently critical of the Cuban regime. The question the court considered was whether the curators rejected the book due to its historical "inaccuracies," or because they simply disagreed with the content.
Is there a "principled" way to distinguish "accurate history" from "inaccurate history?" No doubt you would be skeptical. But the court managed well enough.
The responses I've received that quibble with whether these distinctions can be "principled" or reduced to some kind of justiciable "standard" seem to have a narrow target in mind, narrower than is required for purposes of legal reasoning. You seem to think that no "principle" exists to support a distinction if one cannot define some kind of necessary and sufficient set of conditions that must be satisfied for something to count as "pseudo-scientific." But this is absurd. That is not the way that language, or "principles," work, nor is this how legal reasoning necessarily works.
The fact that the word "pseudo-scientific" has meaning, and can be apprehended as a standard for evaluating putatively "scientific" works, means that it is sufficiently "principled" for present purposes. It may be a qualitative standard, it may be a standard that not everyone will agree is satisfied in given circumstances. But this is beside the point. The point is to distinguish between permissible and impermissible standards that library curators can use when deciding whether to collect or keep a given book in their collection.
You get that that's different that your paraphrase, right?
Is your standard applicable to a bookstore (can the government prohibit the sale of A Visit to Cuba)? Is it applicable to the general public library (can the library remove A Visit to Cuba from its shelves)? Or is it only applicable to public school libraries (perhaps only K-12)?
I am not trying to articulate any kind of standard that would apply to government regulation of bookstores, nor do I think the one I am trying to pencil out ought to apply to general public libraries.
Understand that I am not arguing for the regulation of speech. I am arguing against it. I am just trying to shape a standard, compatible with First Amendment jurisprudence, that acknowledges that states have interests in regulating what resources are included in public school libraries, and preserves as much speech notwithstanding those interests. Contra Eugene, who believes that no constitutional limitation applies in that context, I am trying to describe a workable standard that could be used to distinguish between permissible "curation" and impermissible "censorship."
When it comes to bookstores, general public libraries, or even most public university libraries, I would be opposed to censorship even of putatively "pseudo-scientific" books.
There is no practical way to stock a library without picking and choosing which books to buy and making value judgements about what to select.
I really doubt those books which are so contentious got into the library by random selection.
You keep on claiming that Eugene believes there is no constitutional limitation in the K-12 public school library context. You can't possibly know if that is true. For one thing, I would expect him to agree with the dissenters in Pico that a ban on books because they praise Republicans is unconstitutional.
So no, Eugene did not clearly say what you think he said, the last paragraph in the OP notwithstanding.
The courts have intervened on Establishment Clause (Epperson v. Arkansas) and Due Process grounds (Meyer v. Nebraska). I would think it likely they would also intervene if curriculum taught the Republican party or whites are superior (at least it is not clear).
Of course, those are very rare cases and I fully agree with you apart from those cases, Burger is arguing school boards have free reign to control curriculum and library books under the same standard. But my point continues to be, that Burger's (and likely Eugene's) preferred standard for curricula and library books does not result in absolute free reign. I also think Rehnquist holds the same view ("I agree fully with the views expressed by THE CHIEF JUSTICE").
You keep on claiming that Eugene believes there is no constitutional limitation in the K-12 public school library context. You can’t possibly know if that is true. For one thing, I would expect him to agree with the dissenters in Pico that a ban on books because they praise Republicans is unconstitutional.
There are multiple Pico dissents. Rehnquist's dissent is consistent with this view, but I read Eugene's statement in the OP as more consistent with O'Connor's brief statement and the Burger and Powell dissents. Each of which would place no constitutional constraints on the ability of school boards to determine the content of public school libraries.
Small point: Burger and Powell joined Rehnquist's dissent.
Larger point: you can't possibly know where Eugene stands on that issue.
Apart from where he expressly adopts the position that O'Connor takes, you mean?
Burger and Powell joined Rehnquist, but their opinions go further than his did. The dissents range basically in the extent to which they would try to apply Tinker to curation decisions in school libraries. Rehnquist would attempt to apply Tinker. Powell arguably would apply a version of Tinker that defers to school boards' judgment. Burger analogizes school library curation to setting school curriculum, where the First Amendment doesn't set limits on content-based regulation, and that is O'Connor's position as well. Eugene's last paragraph in the OP employs reasoning almost identical to Burger and O'Connor.
Honestly, I don't see why you think this requires mind-reading.
Given he joined Rehnquist's dissent, it takes Jedi mind reading to conclude Burger would think curriculum that teaches Republicans are better than Democrats is constitutional. And ditto Eugene since he specifically mentioned the dissent which concluded removing books which praised Republicans is not constitutional.
Given he joined Rehnquist’s dissent, it takes Jedi mind reading to conclude Burger would think curriculum that teaches Republicans are better than Democrats is constitutional.
It doesn't require anything other than reading what he actually wrote.
This is getting tiresome, so let's take a different tack:
1) Do you think that Burger (and Rehnquist) would agree that school boards are generally free to mandate that only "Republican" views be taught in public K-12 schools? If no, why not?
2) If yes, do you think that Burger would apply a different standard to evaluating a school board's decisions about public school curricula than he would to the content of a public school's libraries?
3) If yes, can you point to anything in Burger's written dissent that supports this belief? In particular, how do you square your claim with the following:
Burger joined Rehnquist's dissent, but it seems clear that he would not agree with Rehnquist that there are some kinds of content-based decisions on library collections that the First Amendment would prohibit. For Burger, the school board, in making decisions about school curricula and library curation, is just a democratic extension of parents' rights to shape and guide their own children's education. If the parents, acting by the board, want to convey to their children a specifically "Republican" view of the world, they ought to be permitted to do this; and if the board were for some reason to impose its own preferences that are contrary to the community's, then the community would act to correct this misstep by ousting the board members. All without the need for the Court's intervention or the introduction of constitutional restrictions.
In other words, unlike Rehnquist, Burger does not view the public school library cases as on a continuum to which Tinker even sensibly could apply.
1) Most favorably to your view, maybe or maybe not.
You might be right. But if this claim is clearly true, Burger shouldn't have joined that part of Rehnquist's dissent. Again, what you think is clear is not at all clear to me.
1) Most favorably to your view, maybe or maybe not.
No, I'm sorry, you've misunderstood. There are correct answers to the questions I posed to you. They were structured to lead you to the correct conclusion by walking you through the reasoning. I was not asking for your opinion or for how you'd think the justices would vote in a different case.
Brennan, Powell, Rehnquist, and Burger all cite cases for the proposition that school boards are generally entitled to dictate public school curriculum without the intervention of the courts citing First Amendment limits ono their authority. That is the law. There is no, "maybe, maybe not" about the question.
Where the justices diverge is whether that same standard should also apply to how school boards are curated. Brennan, White, and Rehnquist each believe that a different standard can (or might) apply. Burger and O'Connor each believe that the same standard should apply. Powell's position seems closer to Rehnquist, and Blackmun takes a different approach altogether (arguing that the First Amendment should limit the "suppression of ideas" whether it occurs in the library or curriculum context).
At this point, I have to conclude that you're just dicking me around. Certainly not capable of engaging in even the most basic Socratic inquiry expected of first-year law students.
In the context you said it, seems an accurate paraphrase. Do you now withdraw it?
Sigh. It’s not an accurate paraphrase.
“ Classes like Accounting, for example, often aren’t about discovering truth, ” recognizes perfectly well that there can be accounting classes that take a more scholarly approach.