The Volokh Conspiracy
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Israel, Gaza, and Selective Historical Memory
Who is responsible for the killing and suffering in Gaza?
The war in Gaza - the war in Gaza and Israel, we should say, so as not to lose sight of the fact that hostilities began with an armed incursion into Israeli territory - is as complex a historical event as one can possibly imagine, with deep and tangled historical roots, a large and very complicated set of relevant actors (Israel, Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, the US, Hezbollah, Iran, Qatar, the Saudis, …), and potentially profound implications for the future relationships among all the parties and for the world as a whole. Not to mention the unimaginably terrible suffering on all sides. It is, to put it mildly, too complex for a blog post, too difficult to find one small piece of the issue to address that is not connected to all the other pieces.
But I find one small corner of this complicated tableau particularly disturbing. Why is it, I ask myself, that Israeli conduct always seems to be judged by different standards than those applied to any other country in the world in similar circumstances; and, similarly, why is it that the grievances of Israel's enemies are viewed more sympathetically than the grievances of any other group in the world?
For instance, you would think that people concerned with ending the terrible violence in Gaza and the awful suffering of the Palestinians would advocate for the most direct and straightforward path to that end: Hamas should surrender, thereby sparing its people further misery. They chose to wage war against a neighboring state; they are at a grave disadvantage in the conflict that has ensued, in terms of military firepower; they are losing, and appear to have no prospects of winning, that war. They are in a position to bring the killing and the destruction to a close; they should release the hostages they are holding and surrender, at which point the Israelis, having achieved their objective, would surely cease their attacks.
Why aren't there any demonstrators in the street, or on our college campuses, calling for that? Where are the petitions? The indignant op-eds? [Though see Charles Lane's WaPo op-ed, here]. Where's the pressure being brought to bear on Hamas from "public opinion," and from the "international community" and the U.N. Security Council, advocating for that option? Why is it always Israeli conduct that is the target of those demonstrators, those petitions, and that pressure?
And, similarly, why does most of the world seem to get agitated only about Palestinian grievances, when the list of racial/ethnic/religious/national groups who have been sorely ill-treated is so long (the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Uighurs, the Chechnians, the Quechua, the Roma, the Kosovars, the Ibo, the Eritreans, the indigenous people all over the globe, Muslims in India and Hindus in Pakistan, … along with, of course, the Jews)? A million Muslims were murdered, and upwards of 10 million more were driven from their homes and forced into exile, in India at Partition in 1947; a million Jews, over the past 50 years, have had their property appropriated and were driven from their homes in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and the other Arab states; a hundred thousand Tamils were killed by rampaging Sinhalese troops in Sri Lanka in the early 2000s…. On and on it goes, a sad litany of communities destroyed, property appropriated, and innocent people murdered. Where is all the anger directed at the perpetrators of those misdeeds? The demonstrations, the petitions, the righteous indignation, the demands for reparations and compromise, on behalf of those ill-treated people?
Some of this one-sidedness, to be sure, is just naked anti-Semitism: Jews are bad, therefore their enemies are good. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
But much of it is not. Much of it, I believe, stems from the widespread view, held conscientiously and in good faith by many reasonable people against whom the charge of anti-Semitism cannot fairly be made, that there is something unique in the relationship between Israelis and Palestinians, something that requires the Israelis to behave in a manner that no other country under attack from a neighbor would be expected to behave. That because Israel is itself responsible - at least to a significant degree - for the plight of the Palestinians, having kicked the Palestinians off of their land, taking control over and occupying territory that should, by rights, be under Palestinian control as part of a Palestinian state, that peace in the region can only be achieved if and when Israel gives all, or at least a substantial portion, of that land back to the Palestinians for incorporation into that Palestinian state.
One doesn't have to go as far as the Harvard student organizations, who declared that Israel was "entirely responsible" for the violence unleashed on Oct. 7 - i.e., that Hamas bore no responsibility for the cold-blooded slaughter of 1200 people - to believe this narrative. It can, I think, fairly be called the "conventional wisdom."
What strikes me as odd about it is the way that it ignores - and seems to be erasing completely from our collective memory - the actual historical record of Palestine itself.
To begin with*: There was, for a brief period, a Palestinian state, but it was destroyed - not by Israel, but by the neighboring Arab States (Jordan, Egypt, and Syria). The 1947 UN Resolution that created the new state of Israel also created the new state of Palestine; the two were carved out of what had been the British-controlled "Mandate," itself a creation of the League of Nations as part of the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire in the wake of WW I.
*The Wikipedia entry for the 1947 Partition Plan has an especially thorough and balanced treatment of these events.
Approximately 44% of the total land area of the Mandate, including both Gaza and the West Bank (and a narrow land corridor connecting them), was included in the new state of Palestine; the greater share (56%)was incorporated into the new State of Israel (though a large chunk of that was the Negev Desert, largely uninhabited and uninhabitable).
The State of Palestine was strangled in its infancy, not by the Israelis, who accepted the U.N. partition plan, but by the neighboring Arab States - Egypt, Syria, and Jordan - who did not. The day after the British pulled their forces out, the Arab armies marched in, and the first Arab-Israeli War began.
2, For almost two decades, beginning in 1949, the Arab states controlled most of the land that was to have been incorporated into the state of Palestine, and, during that period, they did absolutely nothing to hand control over to the Palestinians so as to re-constitute the Palestinian state envisaged by the UN Resolution.
The first Arab-Israeli war ended when an Armistice was signed - actually, three different bilateral armistices between Israel and each of the three Arab nations - in early 1949. The boundaries fixed in those agreements gave to each of the four countries involved more-or-less the territory that their armies had managed to control as of the date that ceasefires had been declared. The West Bank became part of Jordan; Gaza became part of Egypt; the Golan Heights became part of Syria. Israel got - or kept - the rest. The Palestinians, who had no army of their own, got nothing.
You would never know, listening to the current debates about the war and discussions of the "two-state solution," that it was Egypt, Jordan, and Syria that had control of Palestinian lands for nearly two decades, and who refused, when they had a chance, to give one square inch of it back to the Palestinians. Somehow, nobody seems to think that they're responsible for Palestinian rage and Palestinian grievances; I doubt that even Harvard students, benighted though they surely are, would have rallied so enthusiastically to Hamas' defense had its forces slaughtered civilians in Cairo, Damascus, or Amman.
3. And it is, of course, the Arab states who are "entirely responsible" for Israel's gaining control over most of this territory in 1967, when they made another decision that proved catastrophic for the Palestinians: Launching their attack on Israel in what became the 2d Arab-Israeli War, the so-called Six-Day War in which the Egyptians were driven out of Gaza, the Jordanians from the West Bank, and the Syrians from the Golan Heights.
Why is it that only starting then, now that Israel was in control of these areas, did the world rouse itself to Palestinian grievances, and demand that "Palestinian lands" be given back to the Palestinians?
And, come to think of it, what is one to make of the fact that it is Israel that is the only country in this entire history that actually has given Palestinian lands back to the Palestinians? Via the Oslo Accords, which gave the Palestinian Authority a substantial degree of autonomy over affairs in the West Bank and Gaza - not, in the minds of many, substantial enough, but a hell of a lot more than the Jordanians or the Egyptians ever gave them.
* * * * * * * * * *
Don't get me wrong; none of this is meant to suggest that Palestinian grievances are not real, that Palestinian suffering in Gaza is not heart-breaking, that Israel is somehow absolved of its responsibility to treat Palestinians humanely, or that Israel has always chosen the best and wisest course of action with respect to Palestinian claims.
But if we're apportioning responsibility for Palestinian misery, giving Hamas and the Arab States a free pass strikes me as inexplicable. and morally blind.
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Everyone but the willfully blind knows exactly why Israel is held to a different standard: It’s the world’s only Jewish state. Let’s stop pretending it’s any more complicated than that. The people who insist “it’s not antisemitism to be anti-Israel” want to make it impossible for the Jewish state to survive because they are, in fact, antisemites. Most know they’re antisemites, some have their hands in the sand. But in the end the result is the same: They are helping end the only Jewish state because they hate Jews and either want them dead ASAP or at the mercy of those who will torment and kill them.
I welcome the “reasoned” responses of the usual antisemites on this blog.
*heads in the sand
You've got it backward.
Israel isn't held to a higher standard by Western audiences because they're antisemitic.
Israel is held to a higher standard because they're perceived as Western.
It's the exact same reason that people inside and outside the US become outraged when US soldiers committed abuse that would be fairly typical in many developing countries. Do you think all those Americans and Europeans criticized the US because they were anti-white?*
Westerners empathize with Israelis in a way they they don't emphasize with Palestinians or other Arabs, and that's why they expect Israel to do the right thing.
* Yes, I understand there are folks here who will respond affirmatively to that question.
I am inclined to embrace the healing power of "and." Some people froth at Israel because they don't like Jews. Some because they {hate the West / love the West and hold it to a higher standard*}
*delete to taste
I would add a third "and." No nation appears at its most fragrant when it is at war (especially a war in which its survival is at stake) , or surrounded by enemies ready to attack without warning, or is beset by terrorists. Israel has been in that position for pretty much the whole of its existence.
West Germany, Britain and Italy have been through terrorist campaigns post WW2, and all were criticised for how they responded. The US has been involved in plenty of wars, and has received plenty of criticism. On the whole, these Western nations have attracted more criticism when involved in some kind of war, or anti-terrorist campaign, than when lounging around at peace.
Iceland, Norway and Sweden hardly ever attract criticism, because they lead pacific lives.
"Iceland, Norway and Sweden hardly ever attract criticism, because they lead pacific lives."
Well, maybe now, but I remember the Vikings and Gustavus Adolphus 🙂
(your post is spot on, I think)
You do know that Sweden was a Nazi sympathizer nation throughout WWII.
Sure, Swedish iron ore was a large fraction of Germany's supply. The British invasion of Norway was at least partly motivated by the desire to shut off those imports, and the German invasion of Norway was partly motivated to secure the supply (in summer the ore could be shipped through the Baltic from Swedish ports, but in winter the ore traveled across Norway to Narvik.
I have a little sympathy for the Swedes (and the Finns, when they were fighting alongside Germany (for some definitions of 'alongside')). If they had MTFU'd and told Germany 'no more ore for you', they probably would have been occupied as Norway was. Germany would have still gotten the ore.
The Swedes weren't complete German toadies; they provided refuge to Norwegians throughout the war, they took in the Danish Jews, and when the war progressed enough they could get away with it they cut off the ore supply.
It's easy to say they should have gone down fighting, but they were in a pretty tough spot. Likewise the Swiss; they cooperated some and resisted some, but looking at the map it's easy to see why. I dunno if what the the Swiss or Swedes did is worse than, say, the French resisting during Operation Torch, or the Soviet Non-Aggression Pact with Germany.
Gustavus Adolphus, on the other hand...
To which I'd add that, on some level, nobody expects civilized behavior from the Arabs. They're not genuine 1st world, civilized countries, cultures that laboriously learned all the things necessary for modern civilization. (Yeah, yeah, algebra. What have they done recently?) They're barbarians catapulted into a sort of pseudo-modernity by the infusion of huge amounts of oil money.
On some level, the Israelis are recognized as the adults in the room. So it's all on them, even if the 'kids' start all the fights.
See? I said this down below. The racism/bigotry is *going the other way.*
Tell me, Nige, was there anything racist/bigoted about the brave Hamas fighters' actions on 10/7? Anything at all?
That has absolutely nothing to do with the racism in Brett's statement Nige was pointing out. Grow up.
The common denominator is not race but a religion that calls for the subjugation or death to anyone who opposes it.
We're really dusting off the ol' post 9-11 Islamophobia, are we. And Putin says Ukraine is full of Nazis.
I think you should study closely and carefully the motivations of the displaced arabs. Given the sociology and history of the greater middle eastern area, I would remind everyone the history of this area did not start in 1948 or 1919. You have to roll the clock back to the 1st century.
Not to belabor the point, this area is historically known for it's barbarism.
Know your enemy.
'this area is historically known for it’s barbarism.'
So is Europe and Russia, so what?
Tons. Did you not know?
I know I will catch flak for this, but it is not just Arabs (Persians are not Arabs). The cause is the theocratic rule under Islam which justifies the murderous attacks on non-believers.
Hamas is basically acting the way Medieval popes behaved, and the solution is the same: Islam needs a Renaissance and a good helping of separation of mosques and state.
The Renaissance de-fanged the worst aspects of Christianity. If and when Islam has a Renaissance, it, too, will be a kinder and gentler religion. It’s not a complete solution; post Renaissance Christianity has continued to do awful things to this day. But it would help. Unfortunately I don’t see a Muslim Renaissance on the horizon.
Equating Hamas to the Medieval popes is a bit of a stretch. Hamas hardly represents all of Islam.
The Church (with the Pope being a de facto emperor) filled the vacuum left by the fall of the Roman Empire in the west. The Renaissance, the rise of nationalism, Martin Luther, Henry VIII and the expansion of knowledge due to the rise of printing all played a part in reducing the power of the Church and separating church from state.
Islam has had 1500 or so years and if anything seems to be moving backward rather than forward.
Oh there certainly are differences between Hamas and the Medieval popes; my point is that the two are acting alike. Is there any real doubt that had the Medici popes had access to nuclear weapons they would happily have turned Europe and the Middle East into moonscapes in order to enhance their power?
And the danger of any religion is that there really is no limit to the atrocities one can commit if one believes God wills it. Which is a great reason to not give political power to any of them. Let them have their silly theological debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Just leave everyone else out of it.
You don't need the Popes to have done that. There was always a tension between the rulers of the various kingdoms, principalities and city states and the Church. They all played a part into turning large parts of the world into a "moonscape" throughout history culminating in two world wars.
And the danger of any religion is that there really is no limit to the atrocities one can commit if one believes God wills it. Which is a great reason to not give political power to any of them. Let them have their silly theological debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Just leave everyone else out of it.
This is wrong on several levels.
1. The greatest mass slaughterers have been committed atheists (by which I mean anti-theists) - specifically Mr H, Mr S, Mr M.
2. It's true that the Mesoamerican religion was pretty slaughterous, but much less so than Messrs H, S and M.
3. The Mongols were pretty good at killing people, but they certainly didn't do it for religious reasons.
The point about religion, which seems to me to be most important when it comes to atrocities, is that religious folk acknowledge a higher authority. Non religious folk do not. For the atheist, Man is God.
It's true that religious folk may imagine that the atrocities they feel like committing are willed by the gods, but it seems somewhat unlikely that religious folk feel driven to commit atrocities by the commands of the gods, when they themselves feel decidedly queasy about them. That's a recipe for reappraising whether the gods have been properly understood.
But the record of Mr H, Mr S and Mr M indicates that men without gods are capable of anything. There's no external constraint.
And the history of Christians over the past 500 years or so, is that the consideration of their god's commands has required them to impose increasing constraints on their behavior.
Even for those of us who agree with Nietzsche that God is Dead should remember that this is not a liberation, but the opening of Pandora's box.
For those who are confident that we can hang on to Christian ethics without God (for that is really what modern Western morality is) because of the power and wisdom of human reason, I offer you - well, Mr H, Mr S and Mr M.
1. Hitler wasn't an atheist.
2. Mao and Stalin's actions were based on their Marxism, not on their atheism. A China and Soviet Union run by libertarian atheists would have looked far different.
3. While some have argued that Marxism is itself a religion, I would not go that far. I would say that it is a toxic ideology and that like religion it is a toxic ideology that has killed people. Lots of them.
4. Why do you define atheists by what they don't believe? I don't believe in deities. I also don't believe in astrology, palm reading, weather predictions by groundhogs, phrenology, or sasquatch. So if you are going to classify me by what I don't believe, why does God get top billing? Try classifying people by what they do believe; most of the time that's a far more useful classification.
Second, even if I accepted your argument that God is necessary for ethics, that still doesn't answer the question of whether God exists. That a face leads to unpleasant consequences makes it no less a fact.
But God is not necessary to ethics, and the claim that he is, is frankly so ridiculous I'm hesitant to waste time on it, since no one except the already converted believes it anyway. Humans evolved to live in communities, and living in communities requires that certain behaviors be promoted and others discouraged. Spend a few minutes actually thinking through what society would look like if there really were no rules and anyone could do as he pleased.
Ethics is simply the recognition that behaviors have consequences, and society is a far more pleasant and productive place if certain behaviors are encouraged and others discouraged.
Finally, it's a bit of a howler to invoke religion as necessary for ethics given the ethical atrocities many religions have produced. Not believing in God may not make people any better at governance, but it sure hasn't made them worse.
1. Hitler wasn’t an atheist.
Of course he was. His private remarks about Christianity are contemptuous., eg "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity." Any favorable remarks he made about religion were plainly instrumental – pulling the wool of the eyes of gullible Christian leaders, whose opposition he wanted to blunt for the time being, or musing that, if Germany had to have a religion the Japanese and Mohammedan religions would be so much better for Germany than Christianity because of their martial vigor.
2. Mao and Stalin’s actions were based on their Marxism, not on their atheism. A China and Soviet Union run by libertarian atheists would have looked far different.
Marxism is an atheist ideology, Communist policy in theory and practice was to stamp on religion. But in any event the point is that their atheism permitted them to pursue their ideological aims without any psychological constraint.
3. While some have argued that Marxism is itself a religion, I would not go that far. I would say that it is a toxic ideology and that like religion it is a toxic ideology that has killed people. Lots of them.
Marxism, in the Leninist form that it adopted in Russia, China etc is an ideology that explicitly rejected any morality whatever. Anything that assisted the revolution was OK.
4. Why do you define atheists by what they don’t believe? I don’t believe in deities. I also don’t believe in astrology, palm reading, weather predictions by groundhogs, phrenology, or sasquatch. So if you are going to classify me by what I don’t believe, why does God get top billing? Try classifying people by what they do believe; most of the time that’s a far more useful classification.
This just demonstrates that you don’t understand the point I’m making. God, or the gods, is a (or several) supernatural beings who are watching what you do, and who are inclined to punish you for your misdeeds. If you actually believe in them, there is a powerful incentive not to offend them. Quite separate from any considerations of pros and cons, and rational self interest, policed by the responses of other humans to your actions. You are subject to a higher authority. You have to consider, apart from prudential considerations, the punishment you may face from that higher authority. But if you don’t believe in God or gods, you don’t have an all seeing, and punishing, higher authority to worry about. All you need worry about is your enemies here on Earth. And as we saw in the 20th century, what men can do when they are unconstrained by higher authority, and have their victims wholly within their power, is …. whatever they like.
That’s why a deity is special. He’s watching you and he’s punishing you for offenses that your enemies or rivals or other humans can’t see, or can’t punish you for.
Second, even if I accepted your argument that God is necessary for ethics, that still doesn’t answer the question of whether God exists.
Totally irrelevant. My point is that belief in gods constrains behavior. Whether they exist in fact makes no difference.
But God is not necessary to ethics, and the claim that he is, is frankly so ridiculous I’m hesitant to waste time on it, since no one except the already converted believes it anyway. Humans evolved to live in communities, and living in communities requires that certain behaviors be promoted and others discouraged. Spend a few minutes actually thinking through what society would look like if there really were no rules and anyone could do as he pleased.
Ethics is simply the recognition that behaviors have consequences, and society is a far more pleasant and productive place if certain behaviors are encouraged and others discouraged.
1. I didn’t say that God was necessarily to ethics, Just that in practice your ethics are derived from Judaism and Christianity, even if you don’t believe in the Jewish and Christian God. Your ethics are wildly different from the ethics of the nomadic invaders sweeping into Europe from the east over the centuries. They had their communities, and their rules. But what we practice now doesn’t come from them
2. And you continue to miss the point that HAVING ethics is only half the battle. APPLYING the ethical rules in practice is important too. Gods are effective policeman, for those who believe in them.
No, Hitler was not an atheist unless you equate not being Christian with atheism. He said just as many hostile things about atheism as he did about Christianity. His public statements about what he believed were sufficiently muddled that it's difficult to say what his affirmative beliefs were, but they sure weren't atheistic. And, even if he was his religion was Naziism, to which my comments about Marxism apply with equal force.
Marxism is an atheistic philosophy only in the same sense that pedophile priests are a Christian institution, meaning some atheists are Marxist and some Christians abuse children, but Marxism is not an essential component of atheism any more than pedophilia is an essential component of Christianity. Again, you're trying to turn a negative belief into the foundation for an entire philosophy. What if I told you that most Democrats don't believe in the Easter Bunny; would you then draw a connection between the two?
And the idea that believing someone is watching what I do will instill good behavior sure hasn't worked out in actual practice. 90% of our prison population is religious, compared to almost none of the Academy of Science.
I would really like to see a survey on the extent to which belief in God makes someone more likely to be a decent human being. Of course, "decent human being" would need to be well defined and there would have to be some objective way to measure it. But assuming those hurdles could be overcome, I'd be surprised if religion were shown to make much of a difference. As a group, the atheists I know are neither better nor worse than the Christians I know.
From Hitler’s Table Talk : “Science cannot lie, for it's always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It's Christianity that's the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself." Religion will crumble before scientific advances, says Hitler: "The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble.
This isn’t merely anti- Christian, it’s anti any religion. It’s common or garden scientism. Which you could have written yourself.
Marxism is an atheistic philosophy only in the same sense that pedophile priests are a Christian institution,
A particularly dumb point – which evinces your visceral hostility to religion btw. Some pedophiles are Christian priests. Also some are sports coaches, or advertising executives or mailmen. The only correlation between pedophilia and priests is that being a priest may be a good tactical position from which to pursue your pedophilia. Like being a teacher.
But there’s a direct causal link between Marxism and atheism. Marxism is atheist by definition. It’s a core part of the ideology.
Marxism is not an essential component of atheism.
You have the connection backwards. Atheism IS an essential component of Marxism.
The great majority of the population, whether religious or not, has no plans to engage in mass murder. But of those who are tempted to do so – like a number of Marxists have been over the past century or so – the atheism within the ideology ensures that there is no external moral constraint holding them back from proceeding. And likewise Nazis.
"Hitler viewed atheists as uneducated, and atheism as the state of the animals.[82] He associated atheism with Bolshevism, communism, and "Jewish materialism".[198] Richard Overy cited Hitler's belief in racial biology as evidence of scientific views and atheism, but stated that Hitler was not a thorough atheist in that sense because of his theistic and spiritual ideologies:[199]." From Wikipedia article on Hitler's religious beliefs and footnotes cited therein.
I understand your desire that Hitler be an atheist. But he said enough negative things about atheists over the years that that's just not so.
And no, my analogy to pedophile priests does not display hostility toward religion; for that you'll have to read other things I've written. I used that analogy to demonstrate why your argument is a bad argument: Just because Marxists are atheists does not mean that there's a connection, any more than there's a connection between Christianity and pedophilia. The person claiming a connection between Marxism and atheism is making the same logical fallacy as the person who claims a connection between Christianity and pedophilia. Neither is a good argument.
Also, you've committed the logical fallacy of affirming the consequent: Just because dogs have four legs does not mean that everything with four legs is a dog. Just because Marxists are atheists does not mean that atheists are Marxists. You've got it reversed.
Finally, Christians have slaughtered people by the million -- see the Spanish Conquistadres, the Crusaders, the 30 years war, the war over the Filioque. Thousands soldiers died in battle to establish that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son. Your claim that religion makes us better people is a joke. Did that belief keep Peter from denying Jesus? Did it keep Ananias and Sapphira from lying to the apostles about their property? Did it keep David from murdering Uriah? You might have a plausible argument if there were any evidence that belief in God actually does deter bad behavior, but it doesn't seem to.
Just because Marxists are atheists does not mean that there’s a connection, any more than there’s a connection between Christianity and pedophilia. The person claiming a connection between Marxism and atheism is making the same logical fallacy as the person who claims a connection between Christianity and pedophilia. Neither is a good argument.
1. All atheists as Marxists
2. All Marxists are atheists
3. All pedophiles are Christians
4. All Christian are pedophiles
Logical argument is obviously not your strong suit. Of the above propositions three are false and one is true (number 2.) Thus there is a logical connection between Marxism and atheism. The former implies the latter.
But since both 3 and 4 are false there’s no logical connection between Christians and pedophilia, in either direction. Hence your analogy is ridiculous.
Also, you’ve committed the logical fallacy of affirming the consequent: Just because dogs have four legs does not mean that everything with four legs is a dog. Just because Marxists are atheists does not mean that atheists are Marxists. You’ve got it reversed.
I have never suggested that all atheists are Marxists. I have only suggested what is obviously true – that all Marxists are atheists.
The point (again) is that those with a mind to commit mass murder (eg Marxists of the Leninist/Maoist variety) have no external moral constraint imposed by a Deity. It is not that all of those who do not believe in a Deity, are impelled by that belief to set out and murder lots of people.
No, what's ridiculous is your claim that Marxism is an atheistic philosophy, and no one making that claim should make the claim that somebody else doesn't know how to logically argue. All Marxists are atheists. All white supremacists are white. But given that most atheists are not Marxists, and most whites are not white supremacists, it's a stretch to somehow claim that there's a connection. Most felons drink coffee. So what? And atheism isn't even required for communism; just the Marxist variety. The early Christians had all things in common, in case you've forgotten.
And I've repeatedly responded to your claim that there's a connection between belief in God and the suppression of immoral behavior -- all the actual evidence is to the contrary -- and you just keep parroting it. Do you have one single shred of evidence that belief that God is watching has ever prevented anyone who was inclined to commit mass murder from doing so? Or is that just a talking point for which there's no actual evidence?
Most people, atheist or not, are not inclined to commit mass murder so we're talking about a very tiny sample anyway.
Just to be clear, when I say it's not an atheistic philosophy, I mean it's not necessary to atheism. Just as pedophilia isn't necessary to being a Catholic priest. And that's where your tail wagging the dog comes in. Just because some small subset of atheists believes something, and even if they make atheism a central part of what they believe, does not translate into that being an atheistic philosophy. For it to be an atheistic philosophy it has to be necessary to atheism.
Krychek says, “Mao and Stalin’s actions were based on their Marxism, not on their atheism.”
If Marxism excludes deism, how distinct is it from atheism? Seems a distinction without a difference.
Jung recognized the benefits accruing to civilization from the practice of theism, independent from proof of the existence of a deity (the belief in something bigger than one’s self): it’s articulated in his book, “The Undiscovered Self.”
Even contemporary atheists Dawkins and Boghossian warn that eliminating religious practice creates voids filled by things much worse…careful what you wish for:
https://youtu.be/OgJ9-othjJk
Just to be clear, I lived in the Middle East for three years and I yield to no one in my contempt for radical Islam. It’s pretty awful. I just don’t think it’s that much more awful than radical any other religion. The people living in Constantinople when the Crusaders sacked it would like a word. So would all the Canaanites Joshua butchered. God even removed King Saul from the throne for not being bloody enough.
Well we can wish for and hope for "Peace on Earth to Men of Goodwill".
Merry Christmas!
K_2,
It is really silly for someone to to compare an experience lived with something only read about or mythologized. Just compare modern Islam with modern religions, including ersatz religions of mass movements
You’re missing the point of what is being compared to what. In modern times there’s a good argument that Islam may be the biggest threat to world peace and stability. I don’t agree with that argument but it’s at least semi plausible.
At other times and places Christianity has been the greater threat.
And it’s not that there’s anything inherent within any particular religion. The problem lies in giving any religion political power.
My personal opinion (and your mileage may vary) is that the faith is not the driver, but just an exaggerator. Social tech if you will.
The history if the area seems more of a driver of their theocratic shittiness to my eye.
Krychek says, “Mao and Stalin’s actions were based on their Marxism, not on their atheism.”
If Marxism excludes deism, how distinct is it from atheism? Seems a distinction without a difference.
Jung recognized the benefits accruing to civilization from the practice of theism, independent from proof of the existence of a deity (the belief in something bigger than one’s self): it’s articulated in his book, “The Undiscovered Self.”
Even contemporary atheists Dawkins and Boghossian warn that eliminating religious practice creates voids filled by things much worse…careful what you wish for:
https://youtu.be/OgJ9-othjJk
'post Renaissance Christianity'
There were some *notably* bloody conflicts.
What Islam needs is for the US not to have funded and supported the radical Islamists during the Cold War because they were anti-Russian.
As it is Christmas, I'll indulge you in your dream. We all need dreams is a brutal world.
nobody expects civilized behavior from the Arabs
They’re barbarians catapulted into a sort of pseudo-modernity
Also works for Blacks! And Asians! And the Natives! And the Italians! And the Irish!!
Except for the lack of phrenology, this take is straight from the height of the jolly old racism of Imperial Europe.
Most have learned something over the past century. Not Brett!
You're projecting again.
One of these days the bulb in his projector will burn out, and he'll have nothing left to say.
.
And yet, what Brett is saying here is exactly what Israel's critics say to explain their obsessive focus on Israel's purported wrongdoing and that not of any other country's. "They're a Western country so we hold them to a higher standard."
You aren't wrong.
That is a BS response. The Arab and jihadi nations have history of brutal repression extending to the present especially towards women
…and the gays and the chromosome deniers. Why are you homo- and trans-phobic?
Yeah, yeah, algebra
Up to a point, Lord Copper. The Arabs invaded and conquered the Levant, Mesopotamia and North Africa, and as is usual, the conquered adopted the language of their conquerors, at least for public purposes. We really don't know the ethnic origins of the Arabic speaking mathematicians who produced "Arab" mathematics.
Absent any evidence, given that the Arab conquerors had much less of a background in mathematics and science than the peoples they conquered, it's more likely that most of the "Arab" mathematicians were not Arab, but Assyrian, Greek, Jewish or any of the other ingredients of the Middle Eastern potpourri.
Identifying Arabic speaking mathematicians as Arabs is like historians a thousand yeaars hence assuming that anyone who published a mathematical or scientific paper in English in the 20th and 21 st centuries was English.
It ain't necessarily so.
Racist nonsense.
History has gaps. Using those gaps to say 'well maybe it only *seems* like the Muslims did it but really they stole it and we can't know' is not history, it is just bigotry
How excitable you are today.
Back on Planet Earth though, acknowledging that history has gaps, and that we don't know what lies in the gaps would normally be accounted as "rational."
Insisting that the gaps must be filled with the answers you would like them to be - not so much. But I believe a lot of history is done that way these days, so perhaps you are more in the current zeitgeist than I am.
History suggests something. Saying 'there are gaps so we don't really know' is fine...doing so selectively is where it gets racist.
Our most likely guess by far is algebra comes via the Arab world, and was largely refined there.
Going out of your way to say we don't really know is pushing an agenda.
You guys make it sound like there was some guy sitting around one day and then a complete theory of algebra popped into his head, like, we'll teach Algebra I to freshmen, here's a textbook for it written in Arabic, and here's an Algebra II book for juniors (Geometry should come in between). And the question is just whether that guy was an Arab or not.
No. A lot of what we now call algebra came from India, certainly the Arabs developed it significantly, and others too. It's not just some guy (or lady-type guy).
Our most likely guess by far is algebra comes via the Arab world, and was largely refined there.
Sigh. Nobody's arguing that Arab mathematics didn't come from "the Arab world" (subject to Randal's point that some of it came from points further East.)
The point is that "the Arab world" contained lots of ethnic groups beside Arabs. Because the Arabs had conquered them. And when they wrote stuff, they wrote in Arabic.
Just as when a boatload of Hungarian Jews paddled their way to the USA to avoid being slaughtered in Europe, and then wrote some clever math and physics, they wrote in English. Duh !
You can't just speculate your way into denying the history here. It's not impossible, but that's insufficient. You need evidence. You have none.
You have an agenda. It is a bad one.
No, I don't need evidence. If there's a gap in our knowledge, the rational conclusion is that we don't know. Not that because someone writes in Arabic, they must be Arab.
You are the one with an agenda. You would like - for some reason - everything written in Arabic a thousand years ago to have been written by Arabs, even though lots of non Arabs also wrote in Arabic. And therefore you have stipulated that that needs to be the working assumption that must be displaced by evidence. Which is lacking. That's simply assuming your conclusion. Or in Sarcastro-speak - an agenda.
History suggests the Muslim world was seminal in the creation of algebra. We have texts.
Of *course* we don't have all the texts. There will always be gaps.
You're artificially creating a standard no one uses because it's impossible. When your overdetermined test is failed, you get to cut Islam out of the world's intellectual development.
It's utter bullshit.
"History suggests the Muslim world was seminal in the creation of algebra"
Just going to point out that Lee Moore isn't disagreeing with that. His narrow point is that 'muslim' is a superset of 'arab'. For example, if you look at wiki's History of Algebra page you see:
"The word "algebra" is derived from the Arabic word الجبر al-jabr, and this comes from the treatise written in the year 830 by the medieval Persian mathematician, Al-Khwārizmī, whose Arabic title,..."
Note 'Persian' and 'Arabic title', neatly making Mr. Moore's point.
Not related to Mr. Moore's point, there are sections there are sections for Babylon, Egypt, Greece, China, India, and the Islamic World. Like most human endeavors, there were a lot of fingers in that pie. And the Muslim world was absolutely contributing while Europeans went dark: "Just as the death of Hypatia signals the close of the Library of Alexandria as a mathematical center, so does the death of Boethius signal the end of mathematics in the Western Roman Empire. Although there was some work being done at Athens, it came to a close when in 529 the Byzantine emperor Justinian closed the pagan philosophical schools. The year 529 is now taken to be the beginning of the medieval period. Scholars fled the West towards the more hospitable East, particularly towards Persia, where they found haven under King Chosroes and established what might be termed an "Athenian Academy in Exile".[88] Under a treaty with Justinian, Chosroes would eventually return the scholars to the Eastern Empire. During the Dark Ages, European mathematics was at its nadir with mathematical research consisting mainly of commentaries on ancient treatises; and most of this research was centered in the Byzantine Empire. The end of the medieval period is set as the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453.".
Later on, Descartes and Leibniz had a lot to do with the algebra we all fell in love with in high school. Lots of fingers in the pie.
Lee Moore, your focus on historical gaps skates close to a key insight into historical method, but does not quite arrive at it. To put it simply, history is about nothing but gaps.
Consider what the stuff of history actually is, to us, in the present. It is a world-wide collection of survivals—artifacts of all kinds, especially texts, but also: archaeological relics; recognizable instances of species modified by selective breeding; shipwrecks; mummies and treasures dug out of peat bogs; invented implement types; ancient architecture; recoverable DNA, both from times gone by, and descended into the present; burials apparently resulting from wars and diseases, etc.—an almost endless list. All such survivals were created in times gone by, and then by various paths—some purposeful, others by happenstance—arrived to be recognized in one of an infinite gradation of particular present eras, all of which also lie in the past relative to us today.
Thus we arrived at a present packed with a jumble of survivals. Each of those, almost without exception, arrived in the here-and-now without bringing with it any ascertainable remnant to say with accuracy what its meaning was at the time of its creation. Each is initially seen by us only in its present-minded context as a preserved artifact. The actual context of creation for each and every artifact, including the texts, was too complicated, and too time- and place-dependent, to ever adhere to the particular survival during its journey away from its creation time, and through subsequent times to arrive in our present.
Thus, no survival that we find today in an archives or museum presents anything but its bare existence to inform us what it meant when created, or might have meant during various other times prior to its arrival in the present. All context of creation has been disorganized by happenstance, and long forgotten.
No present-minded context can properly contribute to replacing what was lost. Present-minded context, by definition, was created at times post-dating the creation dates of the artifacts of interest. Thus, we know present-minded context could not possibly have inflected original contextual meanings of historical survivals.
That is the historians' problem in a nutshell. Their topics of interest are all gaps. Their method must then be to recreate by inference a forgotten passage of history which has not survived, by reference to remnants from the past which have survived, but without attesting directly any meanings of their own. To build and apply methods to do that, by making the totality of the survivals critique each other—while avoiding recognizable pitfalls and mistaken inferences based on present minded premises—is what historical practice is actually about.
The ideas presented above owe much to the work of historiographer Michael Oakeshott, whom I have approximately quoted here and there above. I recommend his extended essay “On History” to anyone interested. It is far longer than this brief summary, so be prepared for many more complications.
How dare you demonstrate the continuing existence (however fleeting such demonstrations are) of reason and intelligence!
Thank you!
I was being generous to them.
They're not children, they're savages. See: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pro-palestinian-protests-disrupt-cities-before-holiday-no-christmas-as-usual/ar-AA1lYULL
Children are just immature.
No, it's more that Israel is a product of the Western Liberal Enlightenment. It's leadership, including military leadership, have college educations -- Bibi N graduated from MIT back when that wasn't easy to do. Golda Meir graduated from the Milwaukee State Normal School (teacher's college).
Also, Israel is educated and fairly prosperous to go along with its liberalism.
The rest of the Arab world is mostly tribal, conservative, uneducated, poor, and miserable. Which they blame on Israel because it is not.
This is also where nutty college professors and their privileged entitled students will jump in and agree. Israel is only prosperous because it steals from its neighbors and oppresses and colonizes them. Just like men do to women, white people do to blacks, like straight people do to gays. Etc etc.
No, Israel's neighbors don't hate Israel for it's Freedoms.
Haven't heard that canard for a decade or so!
I didn't say that. They hate Israel because it is prosperous and educated. That it is prosperous and educated is part and parcel of being relatively free.
But Gazans and most Mideast countries don't believe that. They think that Israel is prosperous because they are NOT. "They steal from us " is a common complaint. It's also a common complaint of poor and miserable people in the US and Europe who think rich people are rich because they take from poor people like them. Or poor people anywhere else. It's sheer class envy and it's bullshit.
Paloma, are you including the pro-Hamas contingents making their voices heard at Harvard, MIT, and most US universities among the mostly uneducated Arab world?
Israel != Jews. THAT is actually an antisemetic take.
In fact by your logic a lot of Jews are antisemites, because there are plenty who are not fond of Israel's policies.
Plenty of Israelites, even.
There ARE anti-semetic Jews.
Not just because they don’t like Israel’s government.
There ARE anti-semetic(sic) Jews.
Name three.
FERPA precludes it.
Come on ... this is not hard:
1. Most of the Neturei Karta sect.
2. Many of the medieval Jewish apostates.
3. Notable Russian figures like Karl Marx, Lenin (disputed), Lazar Kaganovich, ...
Present tense, my man.
Also your Communists are antisemetic is really reaching.
[I do expect there are some Jewish antisemites kicking around; humanity contains multitudes, but you did not do a good job answering the ask.]
"Also your Communists are antisemetic is really reaching."
Geeze. I can't even.
Seriously, Sarcastr0, don't you ever get tired of demanding that people just pretend none of this was real? Of COURSE the God damned Communists are antisemitic! Is that even up for debate?
It's not like Communism logically entails antisemitism, of course. It's just that, historically, they've been joined at the hip. And unsurprisingly, because Communism is a totalitarian movement.
Totalitarian movements NEED designated enemies of the state, to divert the rightful anger of the population away from themselves. And the Jews just happen, for a variety of reasons, to make ideal targets for that hate.
Communists didn't HAVE to be antisemitic, but they had to be anti-something, and as history had it, they chose to be antisemitic.
And you just look like a fool if you deny it.
.
Hmmm...
"[M]any of the reasons for Jew-hatred and America-hatred [a]re the same. [First] among them [is] envy of success..." (Dennis Prager)
Leftism is all about envy of success. A leftist refuses to take responsibility for his personal failures, blames them on others (on "society"). If you enshrine this (pathetic, despicable) attitude in an elaborate ideology, you get leftism.
Like I said, in theory, they could have picked some other group to designate as the target of their hate. Thus antisemitism isn't logically entailed.
But they were going to pick SOMEBODY to hate, and the Jews are just a great pick for that purpose.
Brett knows this, he's read The Protocols Of The Elders Of Leftism.
This comment is meaningless because the concept of Communism has been misused into meaninglessness. Do you actually believe Lenin's Russia, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Castro's Cuba, and Maurice Bishop's Grenada were all the same thing? People who think it's all one big pot are the ones who look like fools.
They were all the same thing.
In the same sense that the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Lutherans, the Calvinists, the Methodists, the Baptists and the Episcopalians are the same thing.
They have the same God, the same Book, and the same basic philosophy. Also a lot of the same practices.
America's Puritans had the same basic philosophy as 17th century Catholics? Yikes.
On that basis the, "same sense," you mention is incomprehensible.
Weird that the anti-communism of the 1950s was so tied up in anti-semitism then. Or not.
Nobody chooses to be anti-semitic, you fool. It's ingrained into nearly all of western culture, cutting across all class, social and ideological barriers. How it's transmitted I can only guess, I assume it's similiar to how racism, homophobia and misogyny are transmitted, first through family, later through consuming disinformation and self-reinforcing social circles. The difference is that somehow at the back of all the conspiracy theories, there are the Jews, including your own favourite, the Great Replacement. Umberto Eco linked obsession with conspiracy theories with fascism, and he wasn't wrong.
Nige says, “How it’s transmitted I can only guess…”
Class warfare, whereby intellectuals propagate a belief that those who work harder have more not because of their diligence, but because they deprived others who work less hard — having more than someone else is the left’s ill-gotten-gains boogeyman. Politicians use that proposition to stoke resentment and win elections, Adolf in 1933, Barrack in 2012 (his election in 2008 was white guilt and the collapse in housing prices at the hands of Fannie/Freddie and CDOs).
It’s not like Communism logically entails antisemitism, of course. It’s just that, historically, they’ve been joined at the hip
No, Brett. Actually Jews tended to be Communists. Doesn't mean communist countries are never antisemetic, but the tie you are drawing is...I guess Eastern European, and thinking that the antisemitism wasn't a preexisting condition?
Fancy that: Jews are not uniquely immune to being self destructive.
Like they're real human beings or something.
Leaning on the self-hating Jew stereotype to make your thesis unfalsifiable.
Your Israeli "anti-semites" have closed ranks behind the unity government. Why do you have to be so dishonest?
If you like your plan, you can keep your plan... or so I am told.
"After the period of five years, no further Jewish immigration will be permitted unless the Arabs of Palestine are prepared to acquiesce in it."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-white-paper-of-1939
Declaring & losing a war ended that.
If your objection to Israel is, "There are too many Jews and they promised fewer Jews," You might just be an anti-semite.
All you have to do is substitute almost any other racial or ethnic category for "jews", and the word "racist" for "anti-semite"...
Good lord. I just realised that the same people who think affirmative action and other schemes designed to benefit black people are the real racism, are now being OTT hawkish and accusing all critics of anti-semitism on behalf of a state designed and created for the benefit of one ethnic group.
I am embarrassed that I need to explain this to you, but there are major differences between the criteria appropriate to make decisions about promotion and merit within a state, and the criteria appropriate to use to define a state overall.
Japan is the Japanese homeland. There is nothing wrong with that.
If North and South Korea ever reunify, that would be the Korean homeland. There's nothing wrong with that either, nor with those two countries thinking of themselves as Korean.
Turkey is the Turkish homeland. Greece, the Greek.
Most states have ethnic nationalist origins, because a state is, at its heart, a mutual defense pact, an those generally begin with a relatively homogenous tribe whose members feel they can count on each other for mutual defense. Israel, more than most, has that as its origin. I will leave it as an exercise to the reader for why the Jews might have felt the need to band together in the late 40s.
Multiethnic states are mostly the result of colonialism or imperial collapse. Personally, I tend to prefer the constitutional states like the US or Canada to the ethnic ones, but that doesn't mean that the ethnic ones are illegitimate, and we should always remember that for every success story like Canada, there is also a Yugoslavia and a Rwanda.
How can the creation of Israel be anything but affirmative action for Jews? The idea that there was some historical reason why they deserved this special treatment is clearly wokism and Critical Jewish Theory.
Take your argument to the UN which created the Jewish state in 1948.
I'm just surprised some Republican hasn't made that argument.
Replying to Queen:
That would be the UN of 1948 when it had a little bit of respectability.
The difference is that almost every tribe with sufficient power and cohesion gets their own homeland. The Jews aren't getting special treatment, they are getting the exact same privilege that is available to everyone else. (The Palestinians ought to have their own homeland too, they just can't have all of Israel.)
Affirmative action, by its very definition, can only be available to a few groups.
I realize you are just being sarcastic, but there's a ghost of a real idea under the snark , and it's worth addressing.
"I realize you are just being sarcastic"
I'm pretty sure he wasn't. The "woke" tend to be pretty damn stupid.
Time to mute your childish trolling.
Replying to Drinkwater:
Why mute?
Your head is already so far up your ass I doubt you can hear or read anything
'The Jews aren’t getting special treatment, they are getting the exact same privilege that is available to everyone else.'
Well, not exactly. Lots of ethnic groups want a homeland, or want their homeland area to be independent of larger countries, it's the basis for a lot of terrorist campaigns, such as that of the Basque and the IRA. Imperial powers on the way out creating new countries, often with little to no regard for the ethnic make-up of the populations or traditional borders, happened a lot in the 20th century and nearly all of them caused some amount of horrible violence. ('Look, they can't govern themselves!' the imperial powers crowed.) Israel is another example of that, it's nothing to do with any form of affirmative action or wokeness, if anything leaving the area destabilised suited Britain quite well and it was as good a place as any to get rid of the troublesome Jews, they didn't anticipate the determination of the zionists to carve out and protect their own state. Which was an incredible acheivement, don't get me wrong, a true epic of determination and endurance and self-sacrifice, it's just horribly marred by the failure to resolve the Palestinian question.
Blame the French (who thought they won WWI) and the League of Nations for carving up the world without regard ethnic claims.
Oh there's no end of blame.
Late stage colonial border drawing was a mess, no doubt.
Israel was just lucky and organized enough to win when their neighbors came to wipe them out. Then they kept winning, and so they have the moral dilemma of being the dominant military power in a region that hates them.
My main point, though, was that there's nothing illegitimate about Israel acting as a safe gathering place for Jews or defining itself as a Jewish state. Croatia and Bosnia were created from much the same impulse, and no one is suggesting that it is illegitimate for them to have strong ethnic or religious identities.
They tended to be better armed better organised and better motivated than the poor souls left in the wake of other colonial enterprises. Also a lot of very smart and well-educated people from all over the world. Israel is as legitimate as any other nation state, to my mind, and I hope you realise I don't actually object to it having a strong ethnic identity, especially given what had just happened.
Look at us, having a civilized discussion.
(I only mention it, because that is not the typical around here, myself included.)
I also agree with your original point (slightly) that there's a certain amount of hypocrisy in being really, really outraged about affirmative action, but not any other sort of ethnic preference. I just think that there are good grounds to distinguish between the two cases.
Most states have ethnic nationalist origins, because a state is, at its heart, a mutual defense pact, an those generally begin with a relatively homogenous tribe whose members feel they can count on each other for mutual defense.
Yeah, like French Canada. Or, for that matter, like the nascent United States, which built a Civil War into its founding documents.
Get a grip.
Nige, if not in Israel, what would your final solution for Jewish people have been?
Where's the pressure being brought to bear on Hamas from "public opinion," and from the "international community" and the U.N. Security Council, advocating for that option? Why is it always Israeli conduct that is the target of those demonstrators, those petitions, and that pressure?
Don't be intentionally obtuse. Obviously, Hamas isn't sensitive to international opinion. Israel is.
Oh is so unfair you say! Would you prefer the Israelis and Palestinians to switch positions? I didn't think so.
Israel has the luxury of self-determination. The Palestinians don't. With power comes responsibility.
Palestinians do have the power of self-determination. They have all the power in this situation. Offered their own state on multiple occasions, they refused. Offered mercy and peace, Palestinians chose war and murder. Offered aid pouring in from all corners of the world, Palestinians choose to use that aid to pursue their genocidal ambitions.
Palestine is a parasite-predator. It refuses to take care of itself because its only ambition is genocide, hence being dependent on "aid" to not starve to death. But any "aid" you give it will be used to try to kill you.
So, how do you handle a starving man who can't fish, but if you try to teach him how to fish will beat you to death with the fishing rod? Good question...
The OP sets up this strawman to inveigh against:
That because Israel is itself responsible—at least to a significant degree—for the plight of the Palestinians, having kicked the Palestinians off of their land, taking control over and occupying territory that should, by rights, be under Palestinian control as part of a Palestinian state, that peace in the region can only be achieved if and when Israel gives all, or at least a substantial portion, of that land back to the Palestinians for incorporation into that Palestinian state.
Wrong. People aren't wedded to a two-state solution. They just want some solution, any solution. It could be a one-state solution... but Israel will veto that. It could be a three-state solution (basically pre-67 boundaries). The only thing it can't be is the status quo. So to the extent Israel is seen to be perpetuating the status quo instead of working towards a solution, it generates anger.
... which is also the answer to this question in the OP:
Why is it that only starting then, now that Israel was in control of these areas, did the world rouse itself to Palestinian grievances, and demand that "Palestinian lands" be given back to the Palestinians?
Because Jordan, Syria, and Egypt had actually annexed those areas. (At least nominatively.) Again, it's not about reconstituting Palestine, it's about getting those people out of a condition of permanent occupation and sqalor.
Jordon, Syria and Egypt annexed the areas without granting the Palestinians citizenship or otherwise permitting them to assimilate. How is that preferable to permanent occupation? How is it not materially and morally identical to the apartheid attributed to Israel?
Damned edit function isn't working. Obviously the first paragraph should be the block quote, and the second is my response.
Hence "nominatively." It's better in a few ways.
1. It makes the responsibility clear. Note the Israel apologists even here (DMN) arguing that Israel isn't responsible for the Gazans. Some even argue it isn't responsible for the West Bank. That argument is off the table after annexation.
2. Relatedly, the endgame is clear: full rights. This is something Israel has explicitly rejected.
3. The baseline situation for the Palestinians was better. Jordan, for example, did offer full naturalization to its Palestinians. Even the ones in Syria and Egypt had it better before '67 than after.
It's telling that Post makes this "concession" to the Palestinian's plight, but then leaves out the continual expansion of Settlements in the West Bank.
It's hard to frame Israel as a completely innocent victim when it's actively conquering Palestinian land.
That obviously doesn't justify Hamas's murder of innocents. But if you're going to have a useful discussion you need to accept that both parties are doing some pretty significant unjustifiable crimes.
As noted, Jordan owned the West Bank from 1949 until 1967. Did they give it to the Palestinians?
No, but they were willing to naturalize them.
If Israel annexed the West Bank and naturalized everyone there, that would be wonderful!
(I get it's not really possible, just pointing out how Israel's treatment of the West Bank is totally different from what Jordan's had been.)
Was Jordan forcing Palestinians out of their homes and off their land to build Jordanian Settlements in their place?
Jordan was plowing under Palestinian villages because to all such nations in the middle east, the Palestinians are dogs to be kicked out.
Jordan was giving Palestinians full citizenship!
"Black September" ring any bells?
I know, I know....how quickly they
convenientlyforget.That was a conflict with existing Palestinian leadership and their beef with Israel, not an attempt to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from the West Bank. Jordan made them citizens.
Ah, yes, the thousands killed in the fighting were all "existing Palestinian leadership" and the tens of thousands of Palestinians kicked out of Jordan after their coup failed were also all "existing Palestinian leadership".
Jordan deliberately - and openly! - worked to get rid of the Palestinians in Jordan, and was mostly successful. Those that remained were forcibly integrated into Jordanian society.
It was far more like "ethnic cleansing" than anything Israel has done.
Did you even read the OP?
When last there were elections the Palestinians in Gaza voted for Hamas which has since ended self-determinations. Same thing happened in the West Bank. Not withstanding the lack of elections the majority of Palestinians have continued to express support for the "governing" bodies in each area.
When last there were elections the Palestinians in Gaza voted for Hamas which has since ended self-determinations. Same thing happened in the West Bank.
What? No it didn't.
In fact, the West Bank is proof that even if Gaza had played nice, Israel wouldn't have let it prosper. What has the West Bank gotten but more and more settlements and oppressive Israeli oversight?
So, why didn’t Jordan give the West Bank to the Palestinians after they got it in 1949?
Why don't you try answering the question?
Because even the most stringent defenders of Israeli policy realize that the West Bank Settlement program is indefensible.
It is as defensible as the BRit saying that it belonged to the Arabs, because the screwed the Hashemites out of Mecca and Medina
When has defending the indefensible ever stopped them?
I'm not sure any of the are our friends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQK_V5JBjtY
And then Netanyahu helped Qatar send money to Hamas to keep them in power.
Yes, Netanyahu literally arranged the financing of Hamas, an important fact David Post conveniently "forgot".
Netanyahu's strategy has been obvious all along, he and Hamas agree on one thing, they don't want a 2-state solution. So as long as Hamas is in power he can say he doesn't have a viable partner for peace and he can keep expanding Settlements in the West Bank.
The only miscalculation he made is he figured Hamas would never be capable of more than low casualty rocket strikes. So he started ramping up efforts to isolate the Palestinians politically and diverted security forces to support more Settlement construction, and gave Hamas the opportunity to execute a large scale attack.
Whoops.
"Israel has the luxury of self-determination. The Palestinians don’t."
Once again proving that the Randals of the world think brown people should be treated like retarded children.
How about calling for the overthrow of Hamas, and the installation of a Palestinian government that will focus on the good of its people, rather than making war on Israel? Billions of dollars have been poured into Gaza since 2005. Some was skimmed off by the top brass of Hamas and squirreled away in Swiss banks. The rest was used to buy rockets, build tunnels, and arm Hamas terrorists. If the Palestinians had instead used those funds to build an economy in Gaza, they would be far better off today. And Israel would have no reason to invade Gaza.
But again, the Randals of the world believe brown people are to be treated like retarded children.
They are digging up the water mains to use as rockets...
Pointing out how powerless the Palestinians are is now racist, I see.
'If the Palestinians had instead used those funds to build an economy in Gaza,'
Hard to do when under economic blockade and having your infrastructure periodically explode.
'brown people are to be treated like retarded children.'
This is how you justify killing thousands and thousands of them. To suggest that they are not culturally and racially irredeemable and that nobody is likely to thrive under the conditions they endure is to infantilise them. Either way, they are a lesser race. Heads they're inferior, tails they're subhuman.
I make a distinction between determining the direction of their state and individual choices like tossing rockets at Israel.
Political agency is not every kind of agency.
My take is that Israel has a legit reason to be in Gaza, but by all accounts their behavior is pretty bad (except for some curated press-facing stuff).
A cease-fire teaches some bad lessons to some people with agency who have done awful things. It would just set the stage for more awful stuff down the line.
I don't think either Netanyahu or Hamas want a cease-fire. You can't teach these people 'bad lessons,' they're already experts. It's all the people who are dying and starving who want the relief, and any cease-fire would be first and foremost to benefit them and any surviving hostages.
If both belligerents are still into war…has a war ever been stopped in such a case?
Only if the world, especially the US, really fucking leans on them. Which does not seem likely.
This is a good argument for the position of Israel’s right wing, that Israel should ignore international public opinion.
If Randall and the Israrli right are right that the international community focuses its attention on people they think sensitive to it, then perhaps they are right in their view that sensitivity to the international community was a mistake, and ignoring the international community stubbornly and consistently enough will result in the international community choosing to refocus its attention on people they believe will be more sensitive to it.
I hate to say it. But the international community’s decision to ignore Hamas’ role, responsibility, and behavior only increases the credibility of the Israeli right’s position on this issue.
Hamas is effectively the ruler of a state of millions and able to field armies and wage war. That’s power. Not super-power level power, but significant power all the same. And as Randal says, with power comes responsibility.
Israel should absolutely do that. Or at least, it should've when it had the chance. It's probably too late now because of Hezbollah.
Randal, I think Bored lawyer below addressed the palestinian self-determination aspect.
A significant proportion of palestinian society have, in fact, made their choice; they chose Judeocide over having a state. Multiple times. The palestinians are now five time losers in wars of aggression against Israel. For this particular portion of palestinian society (the segment of society who support Judeocide, which is a LOT of them), there is no future for them in Israel. There is a pretty simple policy solution here: Losers Leave. I prefer non-violent policy solutions like voluntary incentivized emigration to achieve that aim. There are occasions where population transfer is the 'least worst' option available. Is this one such occasion? I think so.
I do not believe there is a single Israeli politician (left or right, arab or atheist) who believes in their 'heart of hearts' they'd be safely and peacefully sleeping at night with any palestinian state next door (so to speak). Not one. They hear the rocket sirens daily.
'above', not below. Edits do not work.
'they chose Judeocide over having a state'
Netenyahu supported the rise of Hamas. Presumably this is the sort of response he was hoping for.
'which is a LOT of them'
Growing with every bomb and missile, I expect.
'Losers Leave.'
What a shame actual human beings have ideas of their own. Apparently there are criteria long established whereby groups of people are required to cease wanting to live in their homes. Who knew?
'they’d be safely and peacefully sleeping at night with any palestinian state next door'
What a pity they didn't think of that sooner rather than pursuing hardline policies that sidelined and ignored Gaza and allowed Hamas to fester.
Losers leave.
So we're back to no self-determination, my original point.
Look, if your only options are peaceful persecution (West Bank) or violent persecution (Gaza), that doesn't count as self-determination.
"We choose to destroy you" is not self-determination, either. It's a declaration of war.
That's the part you are consistently eliding. Palestinians have repeatedly chosen the path of war, and their goal has remained destruction of Israel. Their self-determination ends where Israel's begins. Had they chosen to have their own state living in peace with Israel as their neighbor -- a choice they have been given numerous times -- then they would already have their state.
Had they chosen to have their own state living in peace with Israel as their neighbor — a choice they have been given numerous times — then they would already have their state.
They were never given that choice in practice. Israel also never agreed to it. Israel has also consistently chosen war over peace. That's what you keep eliding. Actions such as settlements and support for Hamas count as choosing war.
The Palestinians have had decades of self-determination in the Gaza strip. When one compares Gaza to another waterfront property, Tel Aviv, just a few miles to the north, one can only conclude that the Palestinians have markedly different objectives in the attainment of their self-determination. The different outcomes in these two waterfront locations says it all: Gaza is a shite hole, Tel Aviv a prospering metropolis and a tourist destination. Class warfare resentment teaches that Tel Aviv is only better at the expense of others, because the poor people of Gaza were exploited by the Jews, though the exploitation came from within (Hamas) and from without (Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood).
"The war in Gaza—the war in Gaza and Israel, we should say, so as not to lose sight of the fact that hostilities began with an armed incursion into Israeli territory"
Even that formulation undersells it. Hamas is still indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel, so it's a war in Gaza and Israel in the sense that Gaza started it and is continuing in its genocidal ambitions. Calls for a "ceasefire" that everybody knows Hamas will not respect are really calls for Israel to be genocided by rocket.
Needless to say, Israel should ignore them and exterminate Hamas to the last man. The war so far is a good start. Once Israel has made the determination that they're unlikely to recover further hostages, it's time to start going harder.
Yes. Every time someone says "there should be a ceasefire," that means "there should be a unilateral ceasefire, whereby Israel sits back and Hamas continues to shoot rockets."
See, for example, https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-war-grinds-on-israel-sees-sharp-drop-in-rocket-attacks-from-gaza/
Yes, the 100+ Israeli to 1 Hamas rocket ratio needs to be considered.
So the war against Hamas is working, it's reducing (albeit not stopping) Hamas rocket attacks. That sounds like a great reason to keep going.
If the Palestinians have a beef it it because of their Arab neighbors (Egypt, Syria and Jordan) who used them as pawns to justify their Jew hate.
Didn't work out well for any of them. Meanwhile despite the constant threat and several wars, Israel has become a prosperous democratic country.
The Palestinians have a legitimate beef with all of them.
Unclear why you want to exclude the most obvious one of them.
a hundred thousand Tamils were killed by rampaging Sinhalese troops in Sri Lanka in the early 2000s…. On and on it goes, a sad litany of communities destroyed, property appropriated, and innocent people murdered. Where is all the anger directed at the perpetrators of those misdeeds?
Are you some kind of idiot? There were tons of pro-Tamil protests.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Sri_Lankan_Civil_War
The difference is, there weren't a bunch of Sri Lankans whining about it and calling everyone an anti-SriLankite.
And I really can't believe you had the temerity to mention Tibet, when "Free Tibet" has been like the canonical activist cause for decades.
A hack with myopia, that's our David.
Your link hardly supports your claim and the largest demonstrations mentioned happened in the UK, India's former colonial master. No significant demonstrations are noted for the US.
When was tha last time you heard of a Free Tibet demonstration?
How many UN resolutions have there been about Sri Lanka and the Tamils? Or China and Tibet? Or China and the genocide of the Uighurs?
How much press did any of these protests receive?
It is you who are a "some kind of idiot." The kind who pretends that Israel is not held to a different standard than any other country in the world, including the US and the UK.
And how many Americans and other Westerners were in Sri Lanka taking part in the civil war or Politicians campaigning on their unwavering support for Sri Lanka against the Tamils?
Israel is like any other political issue, once people start making their support a big deal then the opposition becomes a big deal as well.
Exactly. And Sri Lanka, China, etc. aren't US allies.
How many UN resolutions have there been about Sri Lanka and the Tamils? Or China and Tibet? Or China and the genocide of the Uighurs?
There were at least a few regarding Tibet, same for the Tamils. China has been more effective at undermining resolutions regarding the Uighurs, but we've been trying.
Well, try harder! Clearly, unless you and your ilk devote exactly the same blood, treasure, efforts and ink to those injustices, you cannot possibly say anything about any other injustices. It's just not fair!
A quick Google finds quite a few resolutions about Sri Lanka and the Tamils.
I'm not saying the UN isn't tilted against Israel, but your metric seems not quite right.
.
That describes a handful of small protests. The only significant ones it mentions are a couple in the UK, and those protests were by Tamils. Of course it's understandable why Tamils worldwide would protest, just as it's understandable why Palestinians worldwide would. But the pro-Hamas protests are not limited to Palestinians. Why are random Americans with no connection whatsoever to the Middle East protesting, other than the fact that they're protesting Jews?
One thing Sri Lanka does illustrate, though, is how facile "You can't defeat terrorism with military force because that just creates more terrorists" is. Sri Lanka did in fact do just that.
Why are random Americans with no connection whatsoever to the Middle East protesting, other than the fact that they’re protesting Jews?
As me and myself point out above, it's because we feel some amount of complicity with respect to Israel, it being both putatively Western and definitely a US ally.
Also, people react to what's in the news. Israel is in the news. People react. Who is actually surprised?
Um, wouldn't the next logical question be: Why is Israel in the news so much?
(my answer: Because it's the one Jewish state, and the people putting out "the news" hate it, and are more than happy to scream about anything it does (however insignificant), portraying it in the worst possible light.)
Maybe because it's in the middle of a "hot war", with thousands and thousands of casualties, happening right now? Are you seriously suggesting that the Fox, OAN, Breitbart, Daily Wire, lunatic right media axis is not discussing Israel?
(Putler's war in Ukraine is still going on, of course, but they're mostly dug-in at this point.)
Yes, we get it. Only Jews whine. Palestinians raise valid issues in a neutral way, Sri Lankans are dedicated to empathetic reasoning. But those damned manipulative Jews sure do put on a show.
Well, I mean... there were congressional hearings, alumni boycotts, university presidents fired, and a buttschload of hand-wringing. That's a lot of attention being drawn to Israel from within Judaism, not by the pro-Palestinian protesters. And yes, I characterize it as whining,
That kind of thing doesn't happen with the Uighurs or Tamils or anyone else.
The day after October 7, when Israel had not yet done anything, 1000 protestors in Sydney chanted "Gas the Jews." If pointing out how obscene that is, is whining, then yeah, Jews whine.
Now let's try the same thing with, oh, Black Americans, and see how much whining there will be.
'1000 protestors in Sydney chanted “Gas the Jews.”'
There was definitely an anti-Israel protest, there were definitely some people chanting anti-semitic slogans, but this is wrong.
I thought that was unbelievable.
Oh guess what:
"Around 1,000 pro-Palestinian supporters marched through downtown Sydney on Monday evening to the city's iconic Opera House, which the government had illuminated in the colours of the Israeli flag following Saturday's attacks by Hamas which Israel says killed over 900."
"[separately] unverified footage shared by the Australian Jewish Association and featured on Sky News appeared to show a small group outside the Opera House lighting flares and chanting "gas the Jews".
It wasn't a 1,000 people.
Antisemitism is a real thing and a real problem. Quit lying about it.
The day after October 7, when Israel had not yet done anything...
This is your fatal misunderstanding. Israel's been mistreating the Palestinians for 56 years at least, with no end in sight. That's what people are pissed off about.
Now you know.
Maybe it should take Machiavelli's advice...
When you asked why Israel is being judged by a different standard, I thought you were going to go on to ask why Israel's use of bunker-buster bombs in densely-populated civilian areas was going unremarked by US leadership, why humanitarian aid to civilians in Gaza is treated as optional and at Israel's discretion, why we're tolerating so many assassinated journalists, why the use of white phosphorous in Lebanon was treated as merely a blip, why the US is sending so much cash and providing so much diplomatic cover for a regime that is clearly engaged in a slow-motion campaign of extermination of Palestinians in Gaza.
But, no, I see you're pumping a different well here.
Don't hide your military weapons underground in tunnels under densely populated neighborhoods, and Isreal won't use the bunker busting bombs. It's really as simple as that. A state has a right to defend itself as long as it does not intentionally target the innocent, though the innocent may die as a result of attacks on military installations. That's basic international rules of war (and just war theory) 101.
"If you assume that every one of Israel's attacks have sufficient military justification, then clearly it has not engaged in any war crimes."
And if you assume that the Jews are evil masterminds just itching to shed the blood of Palestinian children (possibly for their matza), then clearly Israel is engaged in warcrimes (and genocide!!!)
Most of us here in the real world recognize that Hamas keeps almost all of its military infrastructure in civilian buildings and neighborhoods (and I only say "almost all" to avoid nitpicking). It's not an assumption, it's just how Hamas operates.
That doesn't mean Israel has not committed war crimes, but it is up to you as the accuser to point to specific examples and justify your accusation. Saying that they are dropping a lot of of big bombs doesn't cut it.
'And if you assume that the Jews are evil masterminds just itching to shed the blood of Palestinian children'
I think it's the hawkish pro-bombing commenters here who assume that - they think this is all right and natural.
You are asking me to prove what I can't possibly prove, in order to dispense with my claims. It's a transparently cynical and bad-faith move.
First, we need to clarify what various parties mean, when they refer to "military infrastructure" and Hamas. Hamas, it's worth remembering, was the Gaza Strip's governing party. They actually did provide public services, even if not well, or as a second priority to their military strategy. So it is not surprising or even culpable to note that "Hamas infrastructure" may be scattered throughout Gaza.
When it comes to "infrastructure" that is more closely tied to Hamas's military strategy, we can also distinguish between things like ammunition caches and "tunnel networks", on the one hand, and things like offices and apartments where members of Hamas might have lived or organized. Those will have varying degrees of military value. A "central command" where Hamas leaders can be expected to be, or a cache with a large amount of ammunition and weapons, will have greater value than, say, an apartment where a low-level fighter might sometimes stay the night.
Now, ask yourself - has Israel ever said anything about what it is attacking, as "military infrastructure," with the thousands of bombs it has dropped on civilian targets? Do we have any basis for evaluating whether the military value of their targets are worth the number of civilian casualties they have caused, with their tactics? Their public statements suggest they consider all of the above to be valid "military" targets. But you are defending their actions as though they only are attacking high-value military targets.
This is the impossible thing you are demanding that I prove, or otherwise withhold judgment. I cannot properly demonstrate that any particular strike or strategy constitutes a "war crime" unless I can also demonstrate that the military value of a chosen target wasn't commensurate to the civilian casualties caused by striking it. But I can't do that without information that is unavailable to all of us.
Does that mean that I am obliged to trust that Israel is acting justly?
Personally, I need only look at the pattern of Israel lies and propaganda, at how they can't even competently spin the facts they deign to admit, to feel confident that they are at least being cavalier about their targeting and efforts to minimize civilian casualties. Hell, you can listen to what ben-Gvir himself says. They have claimed Hamas casualty numbers that directly imply that they are counting every military-aged male as a member of Hamas. They are telling us one thing in English and another thing to domestic audiences in Hebrew. It's all so transparent, and I am not as foolishly gullible as your lot chooses to be.
Setting that aside - all this talk about "human shields" distracts the discussion away from Israel's various other war crimes. You prefer to debate the point on territory where I cannot access the required information, and so cannot prove, that Israel has been acting improperly. But what of their mass starvation campaign? The forced internal displacement of the population to ever-smaller slivers of territory? Their intentional targeting of journalists? Their refusal to permit aid to come through? Those are all war crimes.
You're confusing me here. You give an excellent two paragraph explanation of why you shouldn't be accusing Israel of war crimes in the course of its bombing campaign. I couldn't put it better myself. You are utterly uncertain about Israel's targeting criteria, intelligence, collateral damage calculations and all the rest. You know nothing about how they are making the bombings decisions.
You then pull an abrupt 180 and declare that just because you can't determine whether there were war crimes, that doesn't mean you shouldn't still accuse Israel of war crimes. Because the Israelis are lying about the casualty count, and therefore must be deliberately targeting civilians, even though you just finished admitting that you had no actual evidence that this was taking place (Your logic on this point makes so little sense I may not be paraphrasing it accurately).
You're not going to bait me into further responses.
I illustrated why your demand was in bad faith, and then I explained that there is a good bit we do know about Israel's criminal behavior about Gaza, even if we were to reserve judgment on its bombing campaigns.
If all you have, in reply, is bad faith, then you can fuck off.
Libel is generally considered bad faith.
If you make an accusation, you'd better have some evidence to back it up. You did not. You admitted is such. I'm sorry if it's hard on your ego to be faced with that reality, but you have only yourself to blame.
"I thought you were going to go on to ask why Israel’s use of bunker-buster bombs in densely-populated civilian areas was going unremarked by US leadership"
If you have evidence that the Israeli Air Force's targets have been incorrectly weaponeered for the ordnance used I would be happy to review it. However, if you're baselessly speculating about topics you know nothing about, there's no need to respond.
Do you have some kind of special intelligence on the targets Israel has been striking, and the weapons used to do so? Or are you just taking their word for it?
You're the one asserting that Israel is doing something wrong. You don't get to respond to a challenge by demanding evidence that they are instead doing everything right. Don't be juvenile, defend your chosen position.
What's "juvenile" is attempting to "win" an internet debate by making these sophomoric burden-shifting comments.
Both the belief that Israel is engaged in war crimes, and the belief that Israel is not engaged in war crimes, requires support. We are not justified in believing the latter, until convincing evidence to the contrary has been produced.
The purpose of your response, to me, is to force me to admit that I can't possibly be intimately familiar with the military targets Israel has been striking or the propriety of the weapons it has chosen to attack them. I can only point to the lack of any apparent military justification being provided for the use and American practice when engaged in similar conflicts in other urban environments. That's all fair to note and admit - our information is limited.
But - so what? What is the appropriate position to take, when evidence of war crimes is currently in short supply? Are we to assume that they are not occurring? No, and again for the same reason that my own position is difficult to demonstrate. Just as I cannot demonstrably show that Israel's choice of weapons are disproportionate to their military need, you cannot demonstrably show that their choice of weapons is appropriate. We both lack access to the necessary information.
So, really, the only position that one can confidently take is one of equipoise pending confirmation. Is that your point?
I encourage you to consider these points, professor:
1. Israel has taken a hard turn toward right-wing belligerence in recent years. Most Americans -- especially younger, educated, modern Americans -- do not support right-wing belligerence (especially when steeped in superstition) at home. Why would anyone expect Americans to subsidize it, at great and varied cost, anywhere else? Israel has chosen to make support for Israel's deplorable right-wing government a left-right divider in American politics. That mistake should have consequences. Israel compounded that problem by aligning with the losing side of America's culture war, a quite stupid decision. That mistake seems destined to have and to deserve severe consequences.
2. America has provided a remarkable degree and volume of military, economic, and political skirts behind which Israel has operated for decades. That may cause many Americans to feel more complicit in Israel's immoral, violent conduct and superstition-laced, discriminatory, and ugly conservative government. When Americans express a desire to stop enabling Israel with extraordinary support, some people take that as an anti-Israel position (rather than a 'keep me out of this, and let the chips fall where they may without my complicity' position). The cost to America of supporting Israel has been steep. It is reasonable to question that cost.
Glad to know you aren’t hiding your antisemitism any more.
Did he ever?
He used to concentrated hire ire on conservatives and Christians.
Let me try that again:
He used to concentrate his ire on conservatives and Christians.
Let me try that again again:
He used to concatenate his iron on contortionists and contusions.
A bunch of bigots at a bigoted blog finally get a chance to lash back against others for perceived bigotry, and they can't resist (because they are hopeless, despicable losers).
I dislike Israel's government because of its right-wing boorishness and its superstitious authoritarianism and discrimination. I dislike Israeli voters for continually voting for right-wing, racist, selfish, radical assholes. I dislike Israel's conduct when it is lethal, immoral, right-wing belligerence, especially because I am -- for the moment -- asked to subsidize it.
That is not antisemitism. I would offer American citizenship to every Israeli. I would consider making Israel a state -- imagine how many of current Israel's problems that would solve overnight. But as Israel levels Gaza and its government funds superstitious parasites I look forward to the day when my government no longer provides -- at enormous and unwise cost -- the political, economic, and military skirts behind which Israel's right-wing assholes currently operate.
This problem, like most, is nothing the American culture war won't solve. Israel will change for the better, quickly and almost completely, or America will no longer enable Israel's right-wing assholes.
Why Israel would choose to align with America's culture war losers is beyond my apprehension, but I support Israelis' entitlement to make (and be accountable for) that choice. It's their funeral.
"Israel has taken a hard turn toward right-wing belligerence in recent years."
To the extent that they bear full responsibility for the murder, rape, and kidnapping of their own civilians.
At least according to our best and brightest.
The "short skirt" defence...
All they have to do is put the left-wing Labor party back into power and young Americans will support them again.
re: young Americans' attitude re: Israelis / Jews
source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-new-antisemitism-is-the-oldest-kind-israel-gaza-college-campus-protest-d29bb68a
It's pretty sick to compare the Jewish kids peeing their pants to lynchings.
So far, three Palestinian students have actually been lynched in America since Oct 7. No Jewish ones.
"Jewish kids peeing their pants"
You are a contemptible worm. Finally earned muting.
Mutesy! I love this game.
And you and the other clingers, Bored Lawyer, have earned what is coming to you as the culture war proceeds in America.
I am beginning to hope and sense better and victorious Americans are likely to become less magnanimous toward vanquished, deplorable conservatives.
"America has provided a remarkable degree and volume of military, economic, and political skirts behind which Israel has operated for decades"
Ah, yes, Palestine, famous for its booming economy that does not rely on American aid, its progressive government, and its peaceful coexistence with its neighbors. Certainly it would never try to "hide behind political skirts."
You're projecting.
Hezbollah would've run through Israel long ago if it weren't for America's skirts.
Seriously?
The combined military might of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia craps their pants at the idea of another round with Israel, and you think a bunch of Iranian proxies who can't even maintain full military control of Lebanon are an existential threat?
Hezbollah is a slightly better organized and slightly, very slightly, less nuts version of Hamas. They have the potential to kill a lot of Israelis, but the Israeli military would roll over them like bowling pins immediately afterwards.
The combined military might of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia craps their pants at the idea of another round with Israel
Israel is badass, but that's our foreign military sales, and our nuclear info, and our protecting them in the UN.
Exactly. Somehow Heedless missed the point completely.
Israel's GDP is $500 billion. Our military aid to them is 5 billion.
They have a first rate arms manufacturing capability, they are a nuclear power, and they have absolutely crushed every military challenge against them since before the United States started offering support.
American aid is helpful, particularly in keeping the security council from saying mean things about them, but it is not by any means necessary. Israel is a first world country surrounded by hostile Third World countries, and the balance of power reflects that.
If you are not aware of this reality, you are simply too ignorant to have a meaningful opinion on events in the region.
If Israel doesn't need American subsidies, why are we (or should we be) providing - at staggering cost -- help to that bunch of right-wing assholes? Why do we absorb hits for Israel at the United Nations and across the globe?
I said the same thing in somewhat more hostile terms to Randal below, but you need to remember that Israel has a GDP of $500 billion while our aid to them is $5 billion.
That's a nice boost, but it is not the difference maker. Israel is a first world country with a first world military (a serious one, not a French one), and its a regional adversaries are very much not. That's why Israel is vastly militarily superior to Syria or Jordan or Hezbollah or any of the rest Not because of American aid.
American arms *development* is a capacity Israel is nowhere near, at least in the majority of areas. That's the value our FMS brings. I suppose they could try buying some old MIGs...
I think you overestimate how much tech counts when the chips are down. The US has shown that sometimes doesn't answer the mail.
You don't need to overdo it and go hubris-by-proxy.
That's fair, but that tech doesn't go far without the doctrine and training to take advantage (See the Ukraine's inconclusive summer campaign for an example). Israel has the doctrine and training. Even if they only got supplied to the same standard that we arm Saudi Arabia, that would still be a significant advantage over their rivals.
They also manufacture significant military tech in house, including their missile defense system and tanks.
Regardless, Hezbollah (the original claim I was responding to) has a few 70s era tanks and no Air Force. They would not be a meaningful strategic threat even if Israel was under a US arms embargo.
" and our nuclear info,"
Do you want to elaborate? I skimmed this wiki page and see aid in varying amounts from France, Britain, Norway, and Argentina. The only involvement I see for the USA is trying to prevent the Israelis acquiring nukes (and those efforts seem extensive).
Absolutely! It's a cool story.
Edward Teller is one of the villains of the Manhattan Project for being the only scientist who testified against Oppenheimer. I did a study of him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Teller#Nuclear_technology_and_Israel is a pretty good 101.
That's pretty interesting. On one hand, we seem to have the US Govt strongly opposing Israel developing nukes, and on the other we have Teller, who was certainly thick with the US nuke establishment, undermining that strategy. Those two stories seem to be in opposition.
1)I wonder what the truth is - both are true, wheels within wheels, or one of the two articles is wrong?
2)I wonder how much difference it might have made. IIRC, Ted Taylor in McPhee's 'The Curve of Binding Energy' makes the point that[1] all attempts at building nukes had succeeded on the first attempt, i.e. for good physicists and engineers, it's not actually that hard a problem.
[1]the book was written before North Korea's possible fizzle on their first attempt.
He had to at least have the government condoning what he was doing, IMO. He was being pretty open about it and they absolutely could have stopped him if they wanted to.
Study that original map proposed by the UN. It puts racial gerrymanderers to shame. Neither Palestine nor Israel is a defensible state. It is difficult to imagine any scenario in which Jordan (which had be betrayed by the Brits) would not have annexed the West Bank.
The major piece of land to Israel was the Negev. What a prize.
So the same international body is going to be wise today? I doubt it.
Israel has work to do. The sooner it is done, the better
Whatever happened to "beggars can't be choosers"?
What ever happened to good sense? You can blame the Brits and the French weren't far behind.
Totally agree = So the same international body is going to be wise today? I doubt it. Israel has work to do. The sooner it is done, the better.
The stakes could not be higher for Israel.
Don Nico: "Study that original map proposed by the UN. It puts racial gerrymanderers to shame."
Israel's out of proportion presence in the world consciousness is absolutely a thing.
There's a particularly stark underdog story; there was pretty focused UN-based attention campaign by the PLO some decades ago. The US is always a driver of attention, and we give it a lot of attention. And it does have extra attention from the Muslim world, which is nontrivial.
I'm sure antisemitism both old and new are in the mix, but it's one element among many.
First time I've ever agreed with what you've said, so there's that.
"attention campaign by the PLO some decades ago."
That campaign continues with fake news and deep fake videos spread on a daily based through Instagram and Tik-Toc.
People hold Israel to the modern standard, which is naturally horrified by this mass murder campaign. Israel has militarily occupied Gaza and the West Bank for 56 years, which is the source of many of these conflicts. There is currently one state, with over 5 million inhabitants living without basic human rights.
If you want people to stop criticizing Israel, then perhaps you should advocate reform of the Israeli government. If, however, you support ethnically cleansing Gaza, then live with the criticism.
Thanks for proving once again Leftists know nothing true of the world around them.
Israel. Hasn't. Occupied. Gaza. In. Almost. Two. Decades.
Lol, 36 years, then. Israel has controlled Gaza for 56 years, first by occupation and more recently by sealing off its borders, implementing a blockade (partially in concert with Egypt). In no sense has Gaza been a fully independent country during those 56 years.
Happy now?
"In no sense has Gaza been a fully independent country during those 56 years."
And no one has recognized them as such. That is what happens to losers in a war
Yet another example of a war solving everything.
Semantics aren't going to solve the Middle East crisis, David.
I think the difference between occupying and not occupying is a bit more than mere semantics.
Not in this case, clearly.
Thanks for a.heroic.dose of bullshit.
"Israel has militarily occupied"
Don't start wars that you are guaranteed to lose and then whine about the consequences
"this mass murder campaign"
That is the program of Hamas and every jihadi in the world.
The IDF is doing the job that needs to be done
Which is what Hamas and every jihadi also claim.
Alas, a passionate argument, yet even the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia decries "armed incursion into Israeli territory." It is the definition of "Israeli territory" which is problematic.
Had the Ashkenazim elected to remain within the defined borders of than land they had graciously been given, all would be fine. In fact, the current proposal on the table -- generously allowing Ashkenazi to dwell within the well-defined 1967 borders while paying reparations for the Nakba and subsequent ethnic cleansings -- has ample provisions to preclude incursions into Israeli territory. It would be odd for the Israelis to reject such a kind and forgiving two-state solution.
I am aware of Israeli land claims based on ethno-nationalistic genetics, legend, and myth and find them as convincing as the land claims made by those who truly believed themselves to be descendants of Ancient Aryans: the Aryan claim to Poland and French Costal territories was ultimately rejected as fallacy, just as the Israeli claim to all areas other than Tel Aviv (the only city/town in the Levant which had a majority Jewish population in 1948) must be rejected as fallacy.
It is indeed ironic that the Ashkenazi now rely upon the argument made by the Aryans (the plain 'ole Nazi).
I think that Israel should pay reparations to displaced Palestinians - to be funded by the proceeds of reparations from Arab governments for property taken from Jews during the extended ethnic cleansing in Arab countries. That seems fair.
I'm not sure the accounting works, but the theory is workable. The point is that this needs to be settled somehow in some way, or the fighting and killing with continue in perpetuity.
"Had the Ashkenazim elected to remain within the defined borders of than land they had graciously been given, all would be fine. "
Did you actually look at the map that Post has in his OP. Those borders are completely indefensible AND unworkable. Israel would be impossibly divided unless every Jew moved into the Negev.
It's also worth mentioning that Israel was the aggressor in the Six Days War. They bombed the Egyptian Air Force at about 7:45 AM on June 5, 1967. A few days later, on the 8th, the Israelis invaded the Golan Heights, a few hours after the Syrian government accepted a ceasefire. This was plainly a war of aggression that resulted in the annexation of territory by force, not a war of self-defense. To call it otherwise is deeply disingenuous. But hey, maybe I just haven't had enough hasbara yet.
They may have been the aggressor but the casus belli was not of Israel's making and it was clear that the Egyptians were planning a war. Between the blocking of the Straits of Tiran and Nasser's kicking out the UN forces, it was clear which way the Arabs were headed. Pre-emption is not unreasonable in such cases.
Egypt's blockade of the Straits of Tiran was the casus belli under international law. Egypt was the aggressor, not Israel.
Bullshit -- Israel only attacked because it was going to be attacked....
What you call 'plainly a war of aggression' is what the rest of us in the real world call 'good military tactics' in the face of imminent attack.
Thanks for a.heroic.dose of ahistorical bullshit.
More attention must be made for the other conflicts if the goal is to end them.
The current reporting is based on historical bias against Jews ! Thus, only one side is cried for.
All of these conflicts are very human and will always continue since maturity is absent, xenophobia is natural, weapons more available, press coverage greater via increased communication. Which brings up one point --- there's more communication but less reasoning and little compromising. Good luck Old World - you folks never change.
The coverage of the Hamas attacks was entirely sympathetic to the Israelis and shocked and horrified on their behalf. The release of the hostages was to near-universal relief and joy tinged with grief. Nobody expresses sympathy to a country that's killing thousands unless they want those thousands killed.
"The coverage of the Hamas attacks was entirely sympathetic to the Israelis"
Hmmm... I'm trying to imagine what coverage sympathetic to Hamas would like like... As someone else put it (I'm paraphrasing): Can you imagine positive coverage of a pogrom?! Can you imagine complaining that news coverage of a pogrom was sympathetic to the victims?! How sick do you have to be... (But, I suppose, you can't be an apologist for evil without being evil yourself.)
It's not so much it's self-evident nature as its tendency to be forgotten in tirades such as this.
However, you do not have to imagine positive coverage of a pogrom without sympathy to the victims - witness the commenters here who cheer on the bombing of Gaza.
Just above you were saying the news is always anti-Israel, and if they can't be then they just won't report.
The dissonance in your cognition must be deafening.
I am very puzzled by people’s confusion about why the conflict between two national groups who were both promised the same tiny territory by the British during World War I gets so much press.
This territory contains many of the place-names in the sacred books of two major religions. For centuries the stylized maps of the world produced in Christian countries had Jerusalem at their absolute center. When the state of Israel made Jerusalem its capital it was ensuring that the eyes of the world would be on this small country. And now Israel’s partisans complain that their violence against civilians gets more publicity than state violence in Myanmar?
This is not antisemitism, it is the way history works.
Instead the PLA would call Jerusalem, its capital. Jerusalem was the political center of the ancient Jewish state. Why should the choice of the modern Jewish state be surprising? You make a weak excuse for anti-semitism
Hamas must surrender, unconditionally. Israel will pursue its military campaign as long as Hamas continues to fight.
Imagine the US getting bombarded with missles and attaked in raids to the extent it has to build a literal fence? Imagine that fence being breached and thousands of US citizens dead, raped, or captured and held for ransom in a lightning attack?
What would we do? We would insist on unconditional surrender, and we would pursue those people until they were no longer a threat. We would destroy their weapons, and dismantle their military infrastructure. We would police their territories afterwards, and arrest anyone who tried to build up a threat again.
This is what we WOULD do, it is what we HAVE done before, and it is what any other country WILL do to stop an aggressor.
And frankly, if I were an Israeli right now, I wouldn't be caring too much about what my friends might think. They can't really understand because it's not happening to them.
Of course that is what "we" would do if we were in Israel's position.
The question is not what we should do, it is what the rest of the world should do, i.e., those who are not in Israel's position. And do you think the ROW would side with the US? I don't.
It's what any nation would do. No one is going to tolerate terrorism. The international community has already started a hard turn against appeasement. The only really solid support for terrorism as legitimate policy is in Muslim lands and US universities -- and the latter is definitely feeling some heat.
If the Gaza strip were along the Mexican border, we'd just annex it.
It's worth understanding why Israel doesn't just annex Gaza. Try to puzzle it out! Exercise your mind.
It's not that mysterious. The Gaza Strip is great and could be a paradise. It's infested with berserker maniacal terrorists who can't be reasoned or bargained with. States don't really do genocides any more, so taking the territory means inheriting the berserkers. Understandably, neither Egypt nor Israel is interested in this proposition.
" must surrender, unconditionally. "
Japan figured that out pretty quickly after to nuclear explosions.
I do not like what is going on in Gaza. I take no pleasure in the death of civilians and the destruction of buildings. But it is a mistake to think that there is a good answer, rather than better or worse choices amongst bad answers and Israel is generally making the better choice. I would like Israeli passivity even less.
Hamas gave Israel a clear choice on October 7 - fight us, and kill thousands of Gazans in a matter of weeks, or don't fight us, and let us kill hundreds of you every so often. I do not believe that there was much of a realistic compromise of position between those choices given that Hamas is dedicated to a culture of death, generally, and the eradication of Jews, specifically.
There are customary laws of war that almost all fighting bodies largely adhere to. There will always be breaches in any conflict - so I am not going to pretend that no Israeli soldier ever commits a war crime. But nor will I accept the argument from the Palestinian side, that these laws of war put Hamas at a disadvantage so it's only fair that they breach them, by using civilians as human shields, embedding their operations in civilian locations, etc. Hamas are *hosti humani generis*. (And one way or another they have plenty of support in Gaza.)
No country anywhere - ANYWHERE - is going to tolerate an enemy like that on its borders, and will always prioritise the lives of its own citizens ahead of the citizens in the neighbouring country.
There are plenty of people who will perform a moral calculus and say, if country X loses an average of say 250 citizens a year to attacks from Y, but can choose instead to fight Y at a cost of 10,000 of Y's citizens, as no life is worth more than any other, X should just suffer. But first, no country will accept that inaction as an option and second, this calculus ignores the message that is sent more broadly to disputes elsewhere.
Years ago there was a campaign in India to reduce the birth rate. There was a poster with two pictures. The first picture showed a couple with 6 or 7 kids in a small hut, the second, the same couple with two kids in an apartment with nice appliances, etc. The message was clear - and ignored, because Indians, in general, shown the two pictures, chose the former, because look at all the kids!
A similar style of choice seems to be at work with Gazans. "You can have a prosperous city-state, with nice beaches and a profitable tourists industry, but you can't kill Jews, or you can have a shithold and get bombed, but you can kill Jews. Do you want the prosperous city-state or the shithold?" "The shithole, please, because that way, we can kill Jews!"
This is an existential fight for Israel. No need to dither about it. Hamas within Gaza will be obliterated; Israel will remain in Gaza.
And the war will go on, but without Hamas. Well done!
Hamas doesn't pose an existential threat to Israel. Not in a hundred years. A threat to Israel's people and to Gaza's people and a threat to peace, yes, absolutely. You're trying to make them orders of magnitude more powerful than they are to justify mass killings.
In hindsight, Israel should not have withdrawn its occupation forces at all, if it wasn't prepared to resolve the conflict on a permanent basis. Clearly, also in hindsight, Israel's policy towards Hamas (i.e., keeping it in power) was a tragic failure.
But from where they are now, from the panoply of bad options available to Israel now, I agree that they have little choice but to continue to exterminate Hamas--assuming they can. Diplomacy can start again after the mad dogs have been put down.
But, in my eminently amateur view, once this is over Israel should again engage in diplomatic efforts to create a final solution of the Palestinian problem (not the one you're thinking of). Otherwise, the war will simply return with the next generation, and Israel will never live in peace with its neighbors. That means giving up the rest of conquered territory which it occupies (including resettling 200,000 settlers--good luck with that).
Realistically, I don't see that happening during my lifetime, so if I were a betting gal, I'd invest in Israeli military hardware now.
'Clearly, also in hindsight, Israel’s policy towards Hamas (i.e., keeping it in power) was a tragic failure.'
Not actually working to end the conflict was always going to be a failure, and people having been pointing it out for decades, no hindsight necessary, though I expect even the harshest critics warning of bad outcomes from this failure were shocked by the scale and nature of the attack.
Working with whom, Nige?
Well not Hamas like Netanyahu did, for a start.
Maybe someone in the rubble has the majesty of a saint and will set aside vengeance for peace. There usually is.
Unilateral actions are a possible thing, David.
The unilateral actions Israel actually takes all seem designed to undermine peace (e.g. settlements), not encourage it.
I would like Israeli passivity even less.
But they have been passive, for 56 years! That's the problem. Not what's happening in Gaza now.
Do you think everyone would be happy with Israel if everything went back to the way it was on Oct 6? No! This anger isn't new. Oct 7 just stirred it up. Something needs to be done about the 5 million Palestinians under Israeli control.
The problem from Israel's perspective is that there are two Palestines. In the West Bank, they have maintained an occupation and a pretty ugly policy of settlement and displacement. In return they have gotten a few thrown rocks and the occasional knife attack.
In Gaza, they removed all settlers and occupying forces, turned infrastructure and control over to the Palestinians, and withdrew. In return they have gotten Hamas, tens of thousands of rocket attacks, and Oct. 7.
Morality aside, from a pragmatic perspective, which seems like the more effective policy?
Israel has other options besides those two.
Also, the West Bank could ignite at any time. It's not exactly a solved problem.
“Israel has other options besides those two.”
And those options are?
1. Annex the areas and kick out the Palestinians.
2. Annex the areas and keep the Palestinians as second-class citizens.
3. Annex the areas and give up on the idea of a majority-Jewish Israel.
4. Annex the areas under some concept of federalism that includes at least one Jewish state ("Israel") and at least one Palestinian state.
5. Work with Jordan, Egypt, and/or Syria to see what it would take for them to annex the areas a la pre-67.
6. Work unilaterally and diplomatically to move the facts on the ground closer to peace, such as by dismantling settlements and preparing for a divided Jerusalem.
There's six just off the top of my head. Smarter people could probably come up with many more.
And any of those would be better than what Israel's actually been doing for the last six decades.
I don't recall post-9/11 protests calling for Al Qaeda to surrender. The idea is silly. Meanwhile, wealthy democracies *can* be pressured by their public for policy changes.
In fact 9/11 puts a lie to your entire bullshit thesis, which is a thinly veiled screed to back up the idea any criticism of the Israeli government is anti-Semitism. I seem to recall me a many, many other liberals demanding Obama's Nobel Peace Prize be revoked for his drone bombings indiscriminately killing civilians. Among many, many other grievances with US tactics. The public was furious over Abu Ghraib.
You're ostensibly shocked that wealthy Western-value holding democracies are held to higher standards than terrorist groups in broke hell holes? Bullshit. Does it also keep you up at night that people oppose lobbying and campaign donations in the US while not instead occupying themselves with protesting the much worse corrupt bribery systems in other countries?
Israel is being held to the standards of wealthy democratic nations. You're not winning any hearts and minds by trying to put a thin fig leaf over 'if you criticize anything the Israeli government or military does you hate Jews'. Especially not with such transparent lies.
The Nobel Obama received was a clear violation of the Foreign Emoluments Clause…he should have gone on stage and accepted it and then told them to stick it up their ass!
Please consider a thought experiment.
A non-Jewish American who has followed for many decades the ups and downs of Israeli Jewish nationalism concludes the prospects for that project have not improved, and are instead growing hopeless. He credits the notion that muslim nations around Israel are hostile to it, and seek the demise of Israel. He is concerned that those hostile neighbors might be willing if they could to exterminate Israeli Jews. He proposes an American immigration policy to permit any Israeli Jews who want to do it to move to America and become citizens here. Is that person an anti-Semite?
Or, to put it another way, if an American judges Israel's policies to be hopeless and self-destructive, must he nevertheless support those policies to avoid a charge of anti-Semitism?
No.
No.
* Permit Israeli Jews to move to America - reasonable.
* Demand Israeli Jews move to America and that Israel become Judenrein - anti-Semitic.
Been done. “The Yiddish Policemen’s Union” by Michael Chabon.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Yiddish_Policemen%27s_Union
The entire world, through the UN, created Israel in 1948 as a 'safe space' for Jews; except for the Arab countries that immediately attacked the new nation. All lands now under Israeli control were either granted by the UN, or result as legitimate spoils of war.
The fact that the Jews are not safe in Israel is just another failure of the UN.
Or a notable failure of the concept of "safe spaces."
'Why is it, I ask myself, that Israeli conduct always seems to be judged by different standards than those applied to any other country in the world in similar circumstances;'
This is an oft-repeated statement that surely provides some sort of supporting evidence. If we are speaking of 'simialr circumstances' we need only look back to post 9-11 when the warlike response of the US lead to the largest global anti-war demonstrations in history. The UK was criticsed heavly for their support of the US invasions. Obama was criticsed heavily for his miltary interventions and drone warfare. The waorld was aghast and bemused by Trump dropping a MOAB, though his escalation of drone warfare was less discussed because he ended Obama's reporting and accountability, ans to say nothing of the Afghanistan withdrawal. Neabwhikle there are those drawing attention to conflicts in Yemen, Syria and Nigeria, amongst others. No, they don't get as much coverage. But it's weird that you'd think that Israel getting more coverage is a bad thing while lucky old Yemen and Syria and Nigeria etc. get less. Is it because white people get the coverage?
Also missing is the much more recent outrage over Russia's invasion of Ukraine. How quickly we forget. (Other Eastern European turmoil tends to get caught up in that, I think.)
Were you equally sniffy when the 10/7 massacre got global coverage, sparked global horror and outrage? More than any massacre in Nigeria, Yemen, Syria? If the cause is anti-semitism, that was an odd way of showing it.
'that surely *needs*'
Bring back the edit function for the love of Dog!
"Neabwhikle," looks to me like useful coinage. I am trying to figure out now the best places to apply it.
It's the name of a character in a Dickens book, I think.
Write idea, wrong author. 😉 Mervyn Peake.
Spot on.
We’re they’re any other things autocorrect got write??
"The waorld was aghast and bemused by Trump dropping a MOAB, though his escalation of drone warfare was less discussed because he ended Obama’s reporting and accountability, ans to say nothing of the Afghanistan withdrawal."
The Afghanistan withdrawal took place 8 months into Biden's administration, on his administration's chosen timeline (at least the timeline they chose until the Taliban ran them out two weeks early).
Yes, my point was the attention paid and the response, I did you the compliment of assuming you knew when and under whom it occurred.
Nope, Trump cut the deal with the Taliban and the withdrawal went fine according to the special envoy appointed by Trump.
A conservative friend once charged I held him to a higher standard than poor Black people. I replied that he had every advantage of family, money, and education. I absolutely did hold him to a higher standard. I also expect better of Israel.
It is fundamentally silly to say that Hamas should surrender. Sure, they should, if they haven't the decency to commit mass suicide. Oh, wait, surrender would be mass suicide...
It's silly because they're obviously NOT going to surrender when the only result of surrender is being killed sooner. And I think the Israelis have finally reached the point of deciding that they must kill Hamas, to the last man.
Hamas has made their bed, and if it's actually a coffin, they still must lie in it.
"It’s silly because they’re obviously NOT going to surrender when the only result of surrender is being killed sooner. "
I'm going to call you out in this one. Israel isn't going to kill people who surrender, that's ridiculous.
They literally killed hostages waving white flags.
That’s more a Team America type thing like when the first American soldiers to die in Afghanistan were from an American bomb.
.
This is dumb. Of course Israel hasn't decided that, if for no other reason than that it's nonsensical. Hamas isn't the American Library Association; Israel can't pull up a membership roster on its computers and use it as a checklist. Israel's goal is to utterly destroy Hamas as an organization. Eliminate its assets and infrastructure and leadership. (But not kill them if they surrender!)
Brett, there is no official Israeli policy declaring: No Hamas prisoners, kill them all.
With that being said, the IDF will not put their troops at heightened risk to save Hamas lives. Then think about the motivation driving the individual soldiers of the IDF (Simchat Torah pogrom). Everyone in the IDF knows someone affected by the Simchat Torah pogrom. We're past 150 IDF KIAs and that number will escalate.
Those who surrender will face Israeli justice. They will receive considerably better treatment than the Israeli & American hostages (which in and of itself says a lot about the palestinians, as a people).
I didn't say there was such an official policy. I said that the Israelis have reached that point, not that they've officially announced it.
They've tried just capturing Hamas. It results in the Hamas they haven't captured yet taking hostages to get their people back. The only way to stop that dynamic, as a practical matter, (Since capturing ALL Hamas is no more realistic than killing all Hamas.) is to kill any Hamas they get a chance to, so that there's nobody to trade hostages for.
I believe they're still wavering a bit, sure, but this is the logic of the position they're in, and I expect them to follow it.
Hamas members are dead men (and women) walking; they will be hunted down and killed violently. They can surrender unconditionally. Not much of a choice, but a choice nonetheless...unlike the hostages (Israeli, American) who have no choices. They are being tortured to death.
Israel is doing the best it can to prevent another 10/7 (and punish the perpetrators). As I see it, any decent person would want them to succeed in this endeavor.
Up until now people have expected higher standards of Israel not merely relative to their surrounding countries, but to the rest of the world. Attacks on Israel never stopped. They may have been sporadic, they were certainly inaccurate - often enough leading anti-Israel types to protest that Israel wasn't entitled to retaliate because Palestinian rockets weren't effective., but attacks they were. Would any other country anywhere have taken no action or would have been criticised for acting?
Further, the constant flow of anti-Israel resolutions at the UN should also be considered when talking about double standards. The fact of those resolutions has the intended consequence of getting many otherwise neutral people to think that Israel really is a bad actor unlike its neighbours and all other countries not subject to all these resolutions, nor merely a generally good actor in a bad situation.
Attacks on Israel never stopped. They may have been sporadic, they were certainly inaccurate – often enough leading anti-Israel types to protest that Israel wasn’t entitled to retaliate because Palestinian rockets weren’t effective., but attacks they were. Would any other country anywhere have taken no action or would have been criticised for acting?
I see justification for the creation of Israel as the Jewish people needing their own state in order to have a place of safety from the history of nearly 2000 years of oppression. (This aspect of the Zionist movement predates WWI, let alone the Holocaust.) I can certainly understand that, but the manner in which Israel came to be precludes it from being such a place of safety, in my view.
Further, the constant flow of anti-Israel resolutions at the UN should also be considered when talking about double standards.
Well, yeah. It is hard to expect the UN to be a beacon of fairness on matters of human rights given both the number and influence of some of the worst human rights abusers among the nations of the UN. It is also ironic how the UN seems to spend so much energy criticizing Israel given the UN Partition Plan that got things moving toward creating it. (As I pointed out, the Plan was never actually implemented, but its proposal triggered the events that led to the war and everything that followed.)
No other country -- let alone Western country -- has been holding 5M people under terrible conditions of occupation for 56 years. That's where the criticism is coming from.
True. Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon have around 5.6 million Palestinians in “refugee” camps. The camps have been there since 1948.
Which isn't great. Still better than keeping them under occupation though. We do want countries to accept refugees. Jordan's population is already over 1/4 refugees, which has on the whole been a good thing. It would be nice if Egypt would take some.
Gaza was not occupied after 2005. And what was the status of Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 to 1967? Israel wasn't occupying them
And Egypt is home of the pyramids.
There was, for a brief period, a Palestinian state, but it was destroyed—not by Israel, but by the neighboring Arab States (Jordan, Egypt, and Syria). The 1947 UN Resolution that created the new state of Israel also created the new state of Palestine; the two were carved out of what had been the British-controlled "Mandate," itself a creation of the League of Nations as part of the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire in the wake of WW I.
This is not correct, as I read the history. The UN Partition Plan did not 'create' the state of Israel, nor did it create an Arab state out of the Mandate of Palestine. The plan was never implemented as it was never agreed to by all sides. The Arabs of Palestine did not participate in the forging of that plan, for one thing, as they viewed the whole process as slanted toward the Jews. Given this map from the UN report at the time, they may have had a point, as some of the land assigned for the Jewish state was occupied by a majority Arab population in 1946. (Only the subdistrict of Jaffa was majority Jewish, actually.)
Post has valid points about how Egypt, Syria, and Jordan could have acted very differently to help a Palestinian state emerge after the first Arab-Israeli war. But that still doesn't account for the displacement of Arabs when the civil war broke out when the UN Plan was rejected by Arabs in an outside of Palestine. The war didn't directly involve the outside nations until Israel declared its independence and existence in May 1948 when the British finalized their withdrawal. The numbers seem to be disputed, but at minimum, hundreds of thousands of Arabs left or were driven from their homes in what became Israel by the time the first war was over. Many of today's Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are descendants of those refugees.
I believe that the reason that Israel is judged by what seems to David Post and others to be different standards are these facts regarding its creation. It is also due to the continued efforts of some Israelis to settle the occupied territories, both with and without the support of the Israeli government. (Around half a million Israelis live in the West Bank other than in East Jerusalem.) For all of the talk that Palestinians could have had their own state decades ago if they wanted it, I wonder if the Israeli governments over the last 50 years have really wanted it either.
'Higher standards' seems like the wrong framing. Anyone who isn't aware of the fact the democratic western countries are as capable of horrific atrocities as the most depraved dictatorship hasn't been paying attention. Being democratic *allows people to object to those atrocities* which is point one and *has media that is allowed to report on them* which is another. The heavy criticism goes with the democracy and freedom of society. If you don't like free and democratic societies allowing criticism of their atrocities then you might as well just give up.
All of these statements and yet nobody mentions the two groups that have had the most influence. The PLO and the Soviet Union. This isn't just restricted to Israel. Anybody remember the European terrorist groups in Europe from the 60's to the 90's? You know. The Red Brigade, Beider Meinhoff and others? Groups that were provided support and funding from the Soviet Union and their satellite countries? Until you look into this nothing else explains it. The reason that people are anti-Israel all falls back to the college chant of "Hay Hay Ho Ho Western Civ has gotta go! Look into groups like the SDS, Weather Underground and others. Then look at their connections to Hilary Clinton or Barack Obama.
Your points might be easier to credit, Prof. Post, if you didn't advance them at a bigoted blog that publishes an incessant stream of vile racial slurs, homophobic slurs, Islamophobic content, misogynistic content, and (non-white) immigrant-bashing hatred.
This blog also features Prof. Volokh's strange fetishes with respect to transgender people and Muslims.
The Volokh Conspiracy's bizarre white grievance, male grievance, and Black crime fixations also are relevant to this context.
Have you ever criticized any of the bigoted hatred that is expressed at this blog every day, Prof. Post? Have you asked Prof. Volokh why he censors comments that make fun of or criticize conservatives, yet lets stand thousands of bigoted comments and comments that call for liberals to be gassed, shot in the face, placed face-down in landfills, raped, exterminated, shoved through woodchippers, sent to Zyklon showers, etc.?
Why do you continue to associate with this bigot-saturated, white, male blog, whose target audience consists of Republican racists, superstition-addled gay-bashers, on-the-spectrum misogynists, white nationalist xenophobes, half-educated Islamophobes, and various other flavors of conservative, antisocial bigots, Prof. Post?
It appears, Prof. Post, that you are just another polemical, disaffected, unprincipled, right-wing hypocrite and coward, not discernibly better than the others -- Blackman, Volokh, etc. -- who operate this blog. Just another partisan Federalist Society asshole. Just another culture war casualty and conservative write-off.
If I am wrong about any of this, please be sure to correct the record, Prof. Post. You could start by trying to provide your perspective concerning the roughly weekly frequency at which your blog published vile racial slurs just this year, Prof. Post -- every time, every week, without so much as a peep from the deplorable likes of you.
Join my prayer circle and pray for Blackman to get laid and impregnate a lady and have a baby with trisomy 13!! It would be such a blessing…and him getting laid would be a miracle!!
Not kind or gentle. To bad you're not the real Sam Bankman-Fried who's anal sphincter is probably already looser than the US-May-He-Co Border.
In my humble opinion RAK, I think you're being a little too harsh on Professor Post.
The exchanges in this thread about anti-Zionism vs anti-Semitism, and whether there are non-trivial numbers of anti-Semitic Jews, suffer from the absence of a stipulated definition of "anti-Semitism." Without it most of the arguments are just talking past each other. Does "anti-Semitism" require hatred of Jews? Wishing them harm? Belief in any of the panoply of deranged conspiracy theories? Or is it enough to pander to and empower people one knows harbor those sentiments and beliefs; to support or at best be indifferent to policies that predictably harm Jews? I'd say the latter categories contain both many Israel-hating leftists (including many Jews) and MAGA rightists, including Trump himself, whose pandering to in-your-face Nazis reflects IMO no more actual bigotry than any of his other policies, all of which are bereft of principle, positive or negative, and express only the transactional pursuit of his sociopathic self-interest.
That hypocrisy could explain and maybe even justify singling Israel out for mockery, but not the blood-lusting hatred.
I don't think Hezbollah beats Israel, but I do think it runs through Israel. Israel's not very well situated strategically.
Er, I know it's Wiki, but stipulating that it is correct, it says he was Persian, not Arab. So hardly an Arabic pioneer.
Which is, obviously, my point. You can be writing about mathematics in Arabic, in the Arab world in the 9th century, without being an Arab.
Wikipedia is maintained by an anonymous agenda-driven army of biased and bigoted leftists. The organization has figured out how to place itself in the top search results for everything whether it’s Google or Duck-Duck-Go. At this point, one might as well skip Google & Duck-Duck and just use Wikipedia’s homepage as a search engine…presuming one desires agenda-driven biased and bigoted information to inform an understanding of the world.
But don’t take my word for it. From the co-founder of Wikipedia:
https://larrysanger.org/2021/06/wikipedia-is-more-one-sided-than-ever/
And lots were sent to the Gulag or executed by Stalin.
They don't think they way you do. That is all.
A general demographic hazard at the time, encompassing all ethnicities similarly.
"encompassing all ethnicities similarly."
There seems to be some disagreemant about that:
"The February Revolution in Russia officially ended a centuries-old regime of antisemitism in the Russian Empire, legally abolishing the Pale of Settlement.[1] However, the previous legacy of antisemitism was continued and furthered by the Soviet state, especially under Joseph Stalin. After 1948, antisemitism reached new heights in the Soviet Union, especially during the anti-cosmopolitan campaign,..."
I haven't studied it enough to have a strong opinion one way or the other, but that's not the only place I've seen that agrees, especially the part that Stalin was taking an antisemitic turn right before his death.
See also "Institutional racism against Jews was widespread in the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, with many sectors of the government being off-limits."
Absaroka, a range of ethnicities practiced Catholicism in the Soviet Union, under various doctrines. Do you suppose that Stalin's terror and political depredations left those untouched? Likewise, mass arrests and executions were inflicted on the Red Army officer class—a consequential mistake, as it turned out when the Germans turned against the USSR. Do you suppose those liquidated from that group were disproportionately Jewish, or perhaps otherwise?
Class warfare was a thing Bolsheviks practiced in earnest, and they undoubtedly found Jews to persecute among the classes they warred against. A the same time, some among the class warriors were Jews.
I do not assert that anti-semitism ended in the USSR. Only that citing Stalin's terror is a wrong-headed way to critique it.