Happy Saturnalia!

Another year of the the Volokh Conspiracy tradition of marking the occasion of this ancient Roman holiday.

Today is Saturnalia, an ancient Roman holiday with a long tradition here at the Volokh Conspiracy. Admittedly, it's tradition only in so far as I have put up a post about it every December 17 since 2006. But, by internet standards, that's a truly ancient tradition, indeed!

The Encyclopedia Romana has a helpful description of Saturnalia:

During the holiday, restrictions were relaxed and the social order inverted. Gambling was allowed in public. Slaves were permitted to use dice and did not have to work. . . Within the family, a Lord of Misrule was chosen. Slaves were treated as equals, allowed to wear their masters' clothing, and be waited on at meal time in remembrance of an earlier golden age thought to have been ushered in by the god. In the Saturnalia, Lucian relates that "During My week the serious is barred; no business allowed. Drinking, noise and games and dice, appointing of kings and feasting of slaves, singing naked, clapping of frenzied hands, an occasional ducking of corked faces in icy water—such are the functions over which I preside."

As in most years, we have no shortage of strong candidates for the position of Lord of Misrule. Plenty of politicians in both major parties qualify, as do many others in positions of power. This year, I fear, we are enduring even more misrule than usual.

Happy Saturnalia to all the friends, Romans, and Volokh Conspiracy readers out there!

NOTE: Most of this post is adopted from previous Saturnalia posts.

Comments

[Mr. Bumble]

"Admittedly, it's tradition only in so far as I have put up a post about it every December 17 since 2006."
Starting to sound like Blackman.

[Mr. Bumble]

During the holiday, restrictions were relaxed and the social order inverted. Gambling was allowed in public. Slaves were permitted to use dice and did not have to work. . . Within the family, a Lord of Misrule was chosen. Slaves were treated as equals, allowed to wear their masters' clothing, and be waited on at meal time in remembrance of an earlier golden age thought to have been ushered in by the god. In the Saturnalia, Lucian relates that "During My week the serious is barred; no business allowed. Drinking, noise and games and dice, appointing of kings and feasting of slaves, singing naked, clapping of frenzied hands, an occasional ducking of corked faces in icy water—such are the functions over which I preside."

Sounds a little like Boxing Day.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Singing naked sounds like something that would quickly lead to something else...

[Krychek_2]

There is an old joke that Baptists are opposed to fornication because it could lead to dancing.

[Kleppe]

Why not celebrate your pagan holiday by resolving to stop posting all your inane bullshit in its unabbreviated form and forcing non-interested VC visitors to scroll past the entire wall of nonsense?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

By "inane bullshit," this wingut means some genuinely libertarian content that is not steeped in old-timey bigotry.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Seventy years ago, that line well might have gotten you arrested.

Yes, it was a better country back then...

[bernard11]

1953? Better? How? Why?

I can think of a few things that have improved since then. Leaving aside the very positive social changes you probably hate, real GDP per capita is about 3.5 times what it was then.

Also, of course, you can't get arrested for saying "bullshit" in public.

[Mr. Bumble]

"... real GDP per capita is about 3.5 times what it was then."

Is that in inflation adjusted dollars?

[Sarcastr0]

That’s what real means.

[bernard11]

Yes.

As Sarcastro says, that's what the word "real," as opposed to "nominal" means.

[Mr. Bumble]

Thanks. Learn something every day.

[Mr. Bumble]

Up next, Kwanza. December 26. Per Ann Coulter brought to you by the FBI.

https://anncoulter.com/2019/12/25/happy-kwanzaa-the-holiday-brought-to-you-by-the-fbi-6/

[Dr. Ed 2]

Her father was a FBI agent, btw...

[The Margrave of Azilia]

There's a just-completed holiday celebrating the Jews' victory over paganism under the Maccabees.

What would the Maccabees think of celebrating Saturnalia?

Anyway, who are today's slaves?

And what's with the corking of faces?

[Alpheus W Drinkwater]

The Maccabees pressed on with their revolt despite international calls for a ceasefire with the Seleucid Empire.

[SRG2]

If one adopt the current narrative, it seems that the Seleucid Greeks had been living in Judea for centuries when settler colonialist Jews from Khazaria invaded the land and reconsecrated the Al Aqsa mosque as a Jewish temple using the blood of Christian children.

[Bob from Ohio]

Libertarian mocking Christians with a pagan holiday no one has actually observed in 1700 years. Reason #1,222,000 why no one really likes them.

[Krychek_2]

Although the number of people who like any religion has been dropping for decades.

[Krayt]

You realize ancient church elders picked December 25 as Christmas for the same reason all other religions have a major holiday then, right? It's doubtful Saturnalia is anywhere near the original.

[Bob from Ohio]

I do realize that anti-Christians have made that a myth.

"Andrew McGowan, dean and president of Yale University’s Berkley Divinity School and a noted theological scholar, explains that ancient Christian writings of the time don’t seem to point to an intermingling of Christian celebrations with pagan festivals."

"In a 2016 essay, “Five myths about the Nativity,” Candida Moss, professor of theology at the University of Birmingham in England, points to a simpler explanation for the choice of the date.
“The real reason for the selection of Dec. 25 seems to have been that it is exactly nine months after March 25, the traditional date of Jesus’ crucifixion. … As Christians developed the theological idea that Jesus was conceived and crucified on the same date, they set the date of his birth nine months later.” Why is Christmas celebrated on December 25? by: Patty Coller, Russell Falcon, Nexstar Media Wire
Posted: Dec 24, 2022 / 02:09 PM EST Updated: Dec 24, 2022 / 02:09 PM EST

[Dilan Esper]

The key point is that it wasn't selected because it was Jesus' birthday, but for other reasons. That seems indisputable, and is part of the more general problem that beyond the bare fact of Jesus' existence (there almost certainly was SOME charismatic preacher who the stories are based on), almost everything about Christianity was formulated long after the supposed events at issue or by people who had no actual connection to Jesus.

[Alpheus W Drinkwater]

A good deal of it by Helena, Emperor Constantine's mother, 300 years after Christ's death.

[Mr. Bumble]

You discount the idea of stories being passed down orally until the gospels?

[Dilan Esper]

1. Paul's stories weren't that. He is apparently some rando who "met Jesus" on an LSD trip. In other words, he just made it all up.

2. It's possible that there were some oral traditions, but the length of time involved means that whatever ended up in the New Testament bore little relationship to whatever the original stories were. It's an elaborate game of telephone plus people almost certainly made many alterations in the retellings.

[Mr. Bumble]

"It’s possible that there were some oral traditions, but the length of time involved means that whatever ended up in the New Testament bore little relationship to whatever the original stories were.

The Canonical Gospels that make up the New Testament are generally considered to have been written between 66-110 AD.
Not a great length of time from the Crucifixion.

[David Nieporent]

I mean, compared to the age of the Milky Way galaxy, that's really short. But for the purposes we're discussing, that's a significant length of time. People can't even accurately relay what happened on January 6, 2021, and that's despite the existence of contemporaneous writings and even video! And you're talking about decades after the supposed crucifixion. And they don't even agree with each other.

[Krychek_2]

Right. If you read the four Gospel accounts of the resurrection side by side there is hardly a detail on which they all agree. One of them has Christ first appearing to yhe disciples in Jerusalem and another has their first meeting in Galilee. If it truly were divinely inspired one would think God would have gotten the details right.

[M L]

Where in these accounts does it purport that the events are presented in chronological sequence?

[SRG2]

I recall reading an apologist's response to all the contradictions along the lines of "if A says there were two people and B says there were three, it's not a contradiction because A could have meant, at least two."

Someone responded, "If A says that a car was red and B says it was blue, then obviously the car was half red and half blue and A and B just saw one half of the car."

[Krychek_2]

ML:

Explain how to reconcile the following passages even if they aren't chronologically in order:

"And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you INTO GALILEE; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." Matthew 28:7

"But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you INTO GALILEE: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." Mark 16:7

And they rose up the same hour, and returned TO JERUSALEM, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. Luke 24:33-36.

So, did this meeting happen in Jerusalem, or in Galilee?

[M L]

It seems the story is that he met them in Jerusalem that same day, and then met in Galilee as planned some days later. Obviously the accounts do not cover all the same events.

[Krychek_2]

So then why did the angel mention Galilee if he was meeting them in Jerusalem first? Would you mention a later scheduled meeting before telling them about one later that same day?

What's obvious is that you're straining to harmonize differing accounts that are not harmonizable. The far simpler explanation is that the authors got the details screwed up. But since that explanation isn't possible within your worldview, you have to make a thoroughly implausible argument.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Would you prefer they mock Christians for being gullible enough to believe silly fairy tales are true, credulous enough to fall for childish superstition, dumb enough to embrace nonsense, and depraved enough to embrace evil, criminal, selfish, hypocritical religious institutions?

[The Margrave of Azilia]

"Sir, a Mr. Scrooge and a Mr. Grinch called. They said something about you needing to tone it down."

[Krychek_2]

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the holidays while at the same time acknowledging that the mythology behind them is just that: Mythology. Being an atheist doesn't mean I can't take pleasure in a traditional Christmas dinner, giving gifts to those I love, and enjoying the Christmas lights. Holidays are important to emotional health and well being regardless of the dubious historical claims on which most of them rest. (I by the way grew up in a church that did not celebrate Christmas or Easter because of the recognition that they were pagan holidays the church expropriated. That was also the position of the Puritans, who made celebrating Christmas illegal.)

God rest you, Unitarians, let nothing you dismay
Remember there's no evidence there was a Christmas day
If Christ was born is just not known no matter what they say
Old tidings of reason and fact
Reason and fact
Old tidings of reason and fact.

There was no star of Bethlehem, there was no angel song
There could have been no wise men for the journey was too long
The stories in the Bible are historically wrong
Old tidings of reason and fact
Reason and fact
Old tidings of reason and fact.

Much of our Christmas custom comes from Persia and from Greece
The solstice celebrations of the ancient Middle East
We know this so-called holy day is but a pagan feastOld tidings of reason and fact
Reason and fact
Old tidings of reason and fact.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

Very good - is it yours, or is it an ancient Unitarian hymn borrowed from the god of the seventh planet?

[Krychek_2]

It’s from an article I read years ago. Still remember the song but have completely forgotten the article.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the holidays while at the same time acknowledging that the mythology behind them is just that: Mythology.

I agree. I like Christmas. Not as much as Thanksgiving or Halloween, but I enjoy the tree, the carols, the gifts, Santa (who leaves a poem and pajamas for the children at our house), the family gathering, the Christmas magic for children, the break from work, the other carols, Rudolph and the reindeer, and everything else that makes the holidays great.

[Paladin_44]

Sounds like something Tom Lehrer would have written.

[Alpheus W Drinkwater]

He was a perfectionist who never would have rhymed "Greece" with "East."

[AmosArch]

The really extreme Conservatives would ironically probably be the happier or at least less bothered side if any of the various factions of the past leftoids cry for actually triumphed. Its the White Christian man that ultimately cultivated and allowed the leftoid cult to run amok in modern society. The ancient Romans and Aztecs probably would have tossed the hippies in a salt mine or had their hearts torn out.

[Krychek_2]

And you think that would have been a good thing?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Much, perhaps most, of our society's progress during the most recent half-century was shoved down the complaining throats of bigoted, superstitious, selfish, poorly educated white males by better Americans (a number of whom, although not nearly enough, were white males).

[Sarcastr0]

Grumpus

[darkknight9]

Saw this on BBC web
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-67680824
"December brings festivities to many of England's cities, but for one, it is a chance to rejoice in more than one set of 2,000-year-old celebrations.

Every year, a week or so before Christmas, Chester's streets are filled with the same sights, sounds and smells that have marked Saturnalia in the city since its days as the Roman city of Deva Victrix."

[DonP]

Forget it!

I'm exhausted from celebrating "Battle of the Bulge" day yesterday, with friends at the range.

[Fyathyrio]

If you think a politician should be chosen as Lord of Misrule, then you apparently do not understand the concept of Saturnalia despite posting this for nearly two decades.

[santamonica811]

Take a deep breath. 🙂

I think he's just making a (yearly) joke, about the word "Misrule." And how it can easily apply to [fill in the name of the political leader you don't like.]

Dissecting comedy is much like dissecting a frog. Both can be done . . . but both tend to die in the process. 🙂

[Analogia Entis & eggroll]

Jill's Christmas decorations were hideous last year but worse is this year. Don't join her. Whatever your beliefs Christmas celebrates the Birth of Jesus. SO try to hide what you are doing.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

.

Whatever your beliefs Christmas celebrates the Birth of Jesus.

That fairy tale has sailed. As Christians tried to force everyone else to observe and respect Christmas, they made it a mainstream holiday that no longer has all that much to do with organized religion for many and maybe most Americans. Religion is fading fast in modern, improving America.

[Mr. Bumble]

Seems like many of your south of the border replacements are revitalizing the Church.

[M L]

A time-honored and heart-warming Christmas tradition: atheists bitterly kvetching about Christianity.

[SRG2]

Almost as important a tradition as Christians complaining about atheists purportedly kvetching about Christmas

[SRG2]

Having a midwinter festival and a spring festival is hardly limited to Jewish, Roman, and Christian religions.

[Olman Grand]

I wonder how long people have been betting on sports? It seems to me that this is one of the oldest activities, and it is not surprising that it is still relevant. Nowadays, the betting industry is actively developing and provides excellent conditions for pleasant leisure and earnings