The Volokh Conspiracy
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What Universities Should Punish and What They Shouldn't
Talia Khan, an MIT graduate student, had a detailed and powerful statement about what she sees as anti-Semitism on campus (apparently written in response to an invitation from Reps. Fox and Stefanek).
Extraordinary video in which a Jewish student highlights the extent of antisemitism on campus at @MIT. Elite universities and their DEI bureaucracies have failed us. pic.twitter.com/X2lX9sMw8l
— Ed Leon Klinger (@edleonklinger) December 6, 2023
And I think it well reflects how many different things are being mixed together here. For instance, the statement refers to "a radical anti-Israel group at MIT called the CAA" whose members have "stormed the offices of Jewish faculty and staff in the MIT Israel internship office. Staff reported fearing for their lives, as students went door to door trying to unlock the offices." If this is accurate, then it should certainly be punished. Likewise as to "Jewish students being physically blocked from moving through the anti-Israel crowd through the main MIT lobby."
Similarly, this allegation, if accurate, would show serious and improper viewpoint-discriminatory enforcement of MIT's rules:
I was forced to take down my Israeli flags and a poster that said "No Excuse for Hate'' and "We Stand With Israel" in my office window after a new banner rule was created 6 days after I put my flags up. Other banners, such as those for "Black Lives Matter'' are still hanging proudly in office windows today. A rule was created by the MIT administration to appease bigoted students who can't bear to see that Israel exists.
On the other hand, here is another part of the statement:
I will share a few examples of antisemitism on campus and let you all decide if all is well on MIT's campus. First, I was forced to leave my study group for my doctoral exams halfway through the semester because my group members told me that the people at the Nova massacre deserved to die because they were partying on stolen land. This negatively impacted me both emotionally and academically.
Her classmates in her study group sound like awful people, and she should certainly not want to study with them. But is MIT really supposed to discipline students for conversations with classmates in which they make morally repugnant statements? And, if MIT is encouraged to do this, what do you think MIT will do to a Jewish student says something to a few classmates that says he has no sympathy for the deaths of Palestinians in the Israeli response in Gaza, when an Arab or Muslim student complains that "this negatively impacted [her] both emotionally and academically"? Even if you think the two are morally different, as I do, how confident are you that MIT authorities will draw the same moral distinction, and punish the first but not the second?
I appreciate that many universities have indeed tried to police a wide range of comments by their students. That was wrong in those cases, and it would be wrong in cases such as the one Khan describes. It's unpleasant when students hear offensive things from classmates, and to have to find a new study group with more decent classmates. It's much worse when students have to live in fear of university punishment for the views they express to each other.
Again, there is plenty of misconduct that should be punished, whether because it breaks content-neutral rules preventing trespassing or blocking pathways, or because it involves unprotected speech such as threats. Universities shouldn't discriminate against pro-Israel messages.
University administrators and faculty shouldn't single out Jewish or Israeli students, and I don't think they should condemn Israel when doing their jobs, either. Khan alleges, for instance, "the interfaith chaplain at MIT"—apparently a position in the MIT administration—"interrupted an event four times to call out Israel as an oppressive white supremacist colonizer state and then asked all students who keep kosher to raise their hands to receive their meals, reportedly examining these students to an extent that non-Jewish students felt uncomfortable and compelled to report the event." That's not what an interfaith chaplain ought to be doing.
The problem is that calls for restricting such misbehavior also often seem to target students' mere expression of their own views—restrictions that, if enforced, would create a police-state-like "police campus" where any conversation on a controversial topic could lead to threat of suspension or expulsion. And of course such a police campus is likely to end up punishing pro-Israel students as much as any other students (especially if it is correct that many in the MIT administration are personally anti-Israel).
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Anyone who can tolerate the Rev is doing pretty good in the toleration department.
Just pretend it's a really long and painful Prostrate Exam done by a (Mediocre) Disgraced Foo-Bawl Coach
Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland would tell you you're full of shit, but Prof. Volokh banished Artie Ray for poking fun at conservatives a bit too deftly for the Volokh Conspiracy's taste.
Never happened, and of course no such person exists anyway.
If it never occurred, Prof. Volokh should say so. But he won't. Perhaps because he knows he did it and doesn't want to lie.
Or perhaps because he knows I have the emails, as does he (and UCLA).
Keep flailing in attempted defense of your fellow clinger, Mr. Nieporent. It seems to suit you, and probably is as much fun as a disaffected culture war casualty can have while awaiting replacement in modern, improving-against-your-wishes America.
Anyone who maintains there is no anti-semitism in elite universities today is a liar. What she describes would fit well with German in the 1930s.
The answer is plain: stop all public subsidies of universities. You want to raise a generation of Nazis, do it without tax dollars.
And, ban foreign support of universities. Qatar money is the source of a lot of this.
Nobody ever said there was no antisemitism in universities ever. What's going on with you? Does your mind think in strawmen?
That would be as dumb as saying there's no racism nor homophobia in universities. All those things are everywhere.
Did you miss the part where one student group broke into the offices of another?
What consequence did they face from the MIT administration?
Now imagine if that were a white conservative group who did the same thing to a BLM office.
Yes, appears to be the answer to my question.
Randal, the degree of homophobia on the MIT campus is infinitesimal, unlike the degree of those happy to harass and threaten Jews.
The homophobia may be largely hidden at the moment, but it's there. All it would take to emerge is some catalyzing event.
Just like the antisemitism was largely hidden until Oct 7 gave it an excuse to come out.
This is the exact thing many, including me, have been saying about the proxy anti-semitism of hating Israel because of its actions. "Oh no." It is laughed away. "It is a rational response to bad actual behaviors by a government!" Yet lingering under the surface is good old anti-semitism. Every person who fancies a clean, pure disagreement or hatred should, if nothing else, be scared shitless of all this around the world was hovering just under the covers.
No, not you of course. You are as clean as the wind-driven sand. I mean all those other millions.
Hey, here’s an idea! Creating a way to get masses in the West to rage at Israel, with a clear conscience, is pushed not by disinterested international relations fans, but by people with less noble motives.
It certainly is a conundrum. Unfortunately, Israel and its supporters are responding in the worst possible way, which is to say fuck it, we’ll just do whatever we want and if anyone complains, accuse them of antisemitism. That just turns more people against Israel and dilutes the charge of antisemitism into meaninglessness, much like how the woke left has ruined the accusation of racism by watering it down to nothing.
“If you don’t support us in this war then your speech should be banned” is an obviously censorious and untenable propaganda tactic that’s certain to backfire. We're watching it backfiring.
Agreed. Proper level of response is appropriate for discussion. On the other hand, if part of the plan was to initiate such an obscene attack, then rely on useful idiots in the west to minimize response, the whole universe can go to hell.
Kraft -- I am not surprised, why are you?
"homophobia may be largely hidden"
what a great non-falsifiable claim, especially when no one expects the LGBTQI+ to be slaughtering infants in their cribs.
What personal experience, if any, do you have of my alma mater? If as I suspect, the truthful answer is "NONE," then what respect ought you and your imagined answers about the state of affairs affecting the community there b given. I'd say that's easy, the answer again being exactly "NONE."
But don't let be discourage you from continuing to advertise yourself as a horse's behing.
.
First, that seems unlikely. Is there no Federalist Society chapter at MIT? No College Republicans group? Are MIT's young conservatives miraculously less likely to be fledgling bigots (homophobic, transphobic, racist, xenophobic, etc.) than the average young conservative? Are the conservatives among MIT's faculty and staff inexplicably less bigoted than the average conservative? Are the people on MIT's campus less religious -- much of our vestigial gay-bashing is associated with old-timey superstition of the religious right -- than other Americans?
Second, much of the antisemitism on MIT's campus is likely associated with that campus' conservatives. Conservatives operate bigotry-hugging institutions and, when they attend legitimate schools, bring their homophobia and other bigotry with them.
Third, right-wing bigots are more likely to take their bigotry to a lower-quality, conservative-controlled, bigot-friendly campus than to a first-rate, mainstream school such as MIT.
Fourth, conservatives tend to be poorly educated, so their stale thinking (with the associated bigotry) may not be as prevalent on a college campus as it is elsewhere.
Other than that, though, great comment.
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For someone who pretends to be a lawyer — though you’ve never demonstrated any evidence that would make it plausible — you sure don’t know very much about the legal industry. MIT does not have a law school; why would it have a chapter of the Federalist Society?
"For someone who pretends to be a lawyer ... MIT does not have a law school; why would it have a chapter of the Federalist Society?"
I'm sure the Right Reverand Artie L.(oL) Korkhead was thinking about Princeton Law when he mentioned the FS.
More seriously, I don't know why so many of you bother supplying him entertainment by responding to him.
You have articulated some pretty a**hole opinions over your time on these boards, and they seem to some ever more frequently these days, but hesitantly neurodoc is going to say this latest of yours stands out as extraordinarily stupid even by the high standard you have set for yourself.
Arthur, let me ask you what I just asked Randal a short time ago, "What personal experience, if any, do you have of my alma mater? If as I suspect, the truthful answer is 'NONE,' then what respect ought you and your imagined answers about the state of affairs affecting the community there be given. I’d say that’s easy, the answer again being exactly 'NONE.'" (Indeed, it should be "less than NONE," you horse's behind.)
Sunlight is the best disinfectant and Middle America is starting to realize what it is paying for -- and is getting disgusted.
If Donald Trump is re-elected, he will put an end to this garbage, one way or the other. And what it will really take is for employers to realize that the college education of today is not the one they got and to stop paying a premium for applicants with one.
Sunlight is of course not the disinfectant that Donald Trump proposed injecting.
Trump has made it clear that, if reelected, he intends to be a dictator.
It looks like we finally have identified a strain of bigotry that the Volokh Conspiracy doesn't embrace and endorse -- at least, when these clingers figure they can pin antisemitism (real or illusory) on a liberal.
Elon Musk, Republican elected officials, and plenty of conservative commenters, for example, receive the matador treatment (waved on through) from this white, male, right-wing blog when they express antisemitism.
Does anyone expect this sudden rush of objection to bigotry at the Volokh Conspiracy to last long, or to apply to gay-bashing, racial slurs, transphobia, and the like?
Carry on, clingers. So far as partisanship devoid of principle could carry anyone, that is.
"And, ban foreign support of universities. Qatar money is the source of a lot of this."
This, a thousand times. Qatar, China. We're letting enemy governments take over our higher education system.
Nationalist xenophobia is stupid, and would fuck up our place at the top of the worldwide competition for talent.
There are already plenty of triggers in place regarding academic freedom. Look what happened to Confucius Institutes and stop conjuring shadowy International puppetmasters secretly influencing our institutions. That paranoia was dumb when it was Jews, it's dumb when it's China and/or Qatar.
Must be over the target as that’s not even sophistry it’s just panicked yapping. Conspiracy theories about the Joos are dumb because “the Joos” are not an organised conspiracy. Everyone knows that 9 Jews in one place means at least 15 different opinions.
Meanwhile the GOVERNMENTS of autocratic Qatar and communist China ARE organised conspiracies. That’s what a government is - a mechanism for organising and directing the force of a polity in a particular direction.
There’s nothing shadowy about the government of China pursuing its geopolitical ambitions- it’s blatant.
What do you imagine the governments of China and Qatar hope to achieve by putting money into US educational institutions ?
This has been going on ever since there have been states. You subvert your enemy by buying some of their people.
You are unaware of the pressure applied to Chinese students by "watchers" to faithfully represent their government's position while they are abroad studying?
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You’re probably right. But there’s plenty of homegrown support for this. See here (re: the sources of such support):
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/12/09/more-on-advocacy-of-genocide/?comments=true#comment-10350347
Just waiting for the fellow travelers here to justify the actions she described. Set your stopwatches.
"the interfaith chaplain at MIT"—apparently a position in the MIT administration—"interrupted an event four times to call out Israel as an oppressive white supremacist colonizer state and then asked all students who keep kosher to raise their hands to receive their meals, reportedly examining these students to an extent that non-Jewish students felt uncomfortable and compelled to report the event." That's not what an interfaith chaplain ought to be doing.
Ya think?
Everyone there should have raised their hands.
Nope. You keep your hands down, because today, they only come for *them*.
Let's imagine a country... Misrael... which behaves just like Israel except Misrael isn't connected to Judaism in any way.
Misrael would, I think, objectively be in the top 10 most evil of countries in the world today based on its behavior. It might even crack the top five if you consider the effects of the bad name it's giving to democracies.
Most people don't have a strong connection to Judaism, so they see Israel as roughly equivalent to Misrael.
Nice try. Most people don't think that at all.
And if you think Israel is more evil than dozens of other countries that can be named, then you are a very, very sick person.
People don’t think that about Israel because of its connection to Judaism. That’s the point if the exercise. Misrael isn’t Israel. I give Israel bonus points based on its Jewish nature. Lots of people do. But not everyone.
Imagine Misrael is a Muslim country if it helps you think about it differently.
You are really clueless.
A few years ago, the head of an Arab country, Syria, gassed 200,000 people. That's an order of magnitude greater than every Palestinian who died in Gaza since October 7, even if you accept Hamas' statistic. That event registered barely a blip on the world scene -- barely any media attention. No UN Security Counsel meetings. The head of the UN said nothing about it.
China committed (and may still be committing) genocide, as labelled by the US State Dept. That did generate a bit of noise, but was then ignored after a month or two. That's real genocide, not the fake "genocide" that Israel is regularly accused of.
So spare me your BS. If Israel were any third world country, what it does would be relegated to page 25 of the news, if that.
And your statement that Israel is the top 10 most evil countries in the world is based on willful blindness. The amount of uncommented on evil in the world is astounding.
If you are looking for some violation of international law, Venezuela is trying to annex most of its neighbor, Guyana. But it is headed by a socialist government, so it will get a pass, certainly from the left and the UN. (Maybe not the Administration, I leave that as a open question.)
You've named two. They were also on my list.
Venezuela hasn't done anything yet. We'll see whether and how they go about this annexation. If they decide to just kill everyone in Guyana, then, you know, that'd be evil.
You want more?
Iraq has a history of gassing and killing citizens of differing ethnicities.
Egypt, over the last 80 years, has instituted a series of policies that have eliminated its Jewish population, reducing it from 75,000 in 1945 to "3" today.
Don't forget the Coptic Christians in Egypt.
And weren't half the Palestinians once Christian?
There's the Jewish exodus from Algeria. The Jewish Exodus from Tunisia. The Jewish exodus from Libya. The Jewish exodus from Iraq. The Jewish exodus from Iran. The Jewish exodus from Yemen. The Jewish exodus from Syria. The Jewish Exodus from Lebanon.
In each and every one of these cases, the same story repeats itself. A series of severe discriminatory events by the government in charge. Pograms which attack the Jews, killing them, destroying their businesses and homes. These are countries which held tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of Jews in 1948.
Today, the number of Jews in many of these countries can be measured with two hands. In the single or double digits. And effective elimination of Jews from all of these countries.
Has there been "any" response for the gross discrimination here by these Arab countries? No. Instead there's a focus on Israel here...which has seen its Arab population GROW since 1948, where its Arab citizens have their rights respected by the government.
Venezuela is making a PR stunt, if they actually declare war it will be a big deal.
I don't agree that "Misrael" would be top 10 most evil, but their gradual conquest and ethnic cleansing of the West Bank would make them international pariahs.
It is a complicated land situation, but most border conflicts are. Importantly, it's very hard to even attempt a justification of the West Bank settlements. That certainly doesn't justify what Hamas did, but Israel is making itself a very easy target for criticism through egregious and unjustifiable ethnic cleansing.
WHY would Misrael suffer? Not a damned Arab country suffered with decades of Palestinian oppression. I know one who came to the US decades ago, with stories of Jordan bulldozing his and other Palestinian villages under.
They are the gypsies of the middle east. Egypt doesn't even want them on a temporary humanitarian effort. (Ironic, given "gypsy" wrongly assumes country of origin was Egypt.)
So that was happening, nobody gave a rat's ass about the hated Palestinians. Then some genius realized they could be used for one of the oldest tricks in the book, redirecting hatred against an external enemy, and a classical one at that -- Jews!
Keep playing your part, people.
Even if that were all true, they didn't have to try very hard. Misrael picked up the mantle of Palestinian tormentor with gusto and relish.
Israel is not a 3rd world country.
An important factor you ignore -- to advance your general promotion of right-wing bigotry by trying to snipe at the liberal-libertarian mainstream -- is that American taxpayers do not subsidize China or Syria, which means Americans are not nearly so complicit with respect to those countries' shitty conduct as they are with respect to Israel's immoral, violent, right-wing belligerence and superstition-based, discriminatory, conservative government.
Count me as curious about your remaining top-22 list.
I'm not sure if it'd crack my top-10, but you specifically mentioned 'dozens,' so I'd like to know what those would be.
Don't forget North Korea, Cuba, South Africa & Zimbabwe (White farmers), Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, The Sudan.....
Randal, let's call that country Venezuela rather than Misrael and see what happens when it decides it, like Israel, needs Lebensraum and the resources of a neighboring nation -- say, Guyana. I'd wager that the US would take a position different than that it is taking in Israel. So, yes, the fact that Jews make contributions to US political interests has an impact on the US response to acts which violate international law.
https://apnews.com/article/venezuela-guyana-essequibo-territory-dispute-maduro-referendum-d956cc4d5d2a70e3a1e762b744e397de
I must have missed the part where Guyana has for 75 years asked all of Venezuela's neighbors to drive Venezuela in to the sea.
Yeah, those pesky Jews and their Benjamins. (Whoops.)
I think we're allies with Israel for reasons more significant than political contributions.
But absolutely, imagine Venezuela surrounding a couple parts of Guyana, building settlements in one, and taking pot shots at civilians in the other for 20 years.
Nobody would give a fuck (they're not doing that already?)
Let me know when Guyanans murder your Olympic Team and 2,000 men/women/children early on a Saturday morning.
Which gets into the congenital pussiness of the whole Moose-lum world, so why isn't Ham-Ass on the outskirts of Tel-Aviv, Jew-rus-a-lem? They scurried back to their shit-holes in Gaza because they're a bunch of pussies.
Actually wouldn't surprise me if the underlying motive turns out to be getting Israel to demolish all of their shit so the rest of the world will build it over.
Frank
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Not necessarily for long.
Aligning with the losing side of the American culture war; engaging in deplorable right-wing belligerence; and making support for that disgusting right-wing conduct a left-right divider in American politics will have relatively predictable consequences.
“Aligning with the losing side of the American culture war”
There are those who fight to defend against harm, and those who fight to harm those they hate.
You gloatingly emphasize the losers, Arthur. With hate in your heart, you *need* losers. With the absence of a parent's love, how else could one feel like a winner?
It’s not too late to find the hurt inside, Arthur. Love isn’t a feeling that benefits only the weak.
I prefer reason to superstition. Education to ignorance. Inclusiveness to bigotry. Science to dogma. Progress to backwardness. The reality-based world to nonsense. Freedom to authoritarianism. Modernity to pining for mostly illusory "good old days."
That is the right side of history, the winning side of the American culture war, and the stronger side at the modern marketplace of ideas.
You side with the insular bigots. So much for preaching about love.
Except in this hypo, Guyanans with anti-Venezualan allies attacked Venezuela the day it was founded, then periodically staged attacks on civilians that included planned, mass rape and infanticide, fired rockets indiscriminately at cities, and violated literslly every cease fire, treaty, and agreement for decades - even ones merely requiring them to provide necessities to their citizens. All the while, Guyana has demanded that Venezuela provide food, water, and jobs for their people, but has invariably spit in their face for doing so. Guyanans are raised to hate Venezuans and three-quarters of them admit to wanting them all dead, a tenth just want them driven out, and a tenth have no opinion.
That's one of the big differences between Misrael and Israel. Israel has some putative reason to be there. Misrael just showed up out of the blue, killed a bunch of people, and stole a bunch of land.
Turkey has illegally occupied a third of Cyprus for 50 years. Nobody gives a shit, and yes, Turkey gets lots of U.S. aid.
Mydisplayname has it spot on. Israel’s conquest of the West Bank, Golan Heights, and Sinai Peninsula were motivated entirely by a need for Lebensraum, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the merely incidental fact that Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, who owned those territories at the time, happen to have attacked Israel unprovoked. And of course Israel never gave an inch of any of it back in exchange for peace.
After all, when France illegally occupied German Alsace-Lorraine after an unprovoked attack on Germany just to gain Lebensraum, the international community was up in arms about it, was it not?
"Misrael would, I think,"
If you want us to believe you think, start demonstrating evidence that you are able to.
But surely they rank far below those violent evil-doers Abraham Lincoln and Upysses Grant, who waged unprovoked war on the poor good people of the South, looted them and burned down their homes, whole cities, illegally occupied them, and then sicced black savage niggers on them who according to the brave freedom-fighters who attempted to resist them and redeem their land from the settler-colonialist carpetbaggers and scalwags, did more rape and murder and genoicide than any Israeli ever attempted. And they burned down whole cities and sicced these niggers on the poor innocent postrate Southerners over nothing more than shits and giggles. They didn’t even want to live there themselves. They sorely persecuted and oppressed the brave freedom fighters resisting the illegal occupation and fighting for a free South.
Evil people if ever there were any. The Israelis aren’t even in their league, don’t even come close, so far as illegal occupation, settler-colonialist-carpetbagger-scalawagism, theft, rape, murder, and genocide are concerned.
Let's see... I feel like you've got more than two in you. So... if we're going back that far, wouldn't you count slavery itself as an even worse evil?
No. Not in the least. Slaves were valuable property and treated as such. The Mufti of Jerusalem, on the other hand, conferred and allied with Hitler and sought his aid in exterminating the Jews, as Hamas seeks today. Neither the Mufti then nor Hamas today has any interest in merely keeping them as slaves.
So no. Not at all. If Israel is evil for seeking to defend itself from extermination, then Abraham Lincoln was incredibly evil, uncomparably evil, for attacking a neighboring country just because he found what it was doing morally offensive.
Dang. A miss. Ok one more shot. As we all know, the Jews were slaves once, back in Exodus. Who do you think made better slaves?
Is slavery better or worse than a government that refuses to provide for its people's needs but pays them enough to support their family if they agree to be a suicide bomber?
Worse.
Always great to see the Volokh Conspiracy publish its weekly vile racial slur while its wingnuts are pretending to be outraged by bigotry (just as these losers pretend to be libertarians, and principled champions of free speech, etc.).
Carry on, clingers. So far as your stale, ugly, rejected right-wing thinking could carry anyone in modern, improving-against-your-wishes America.
China is currently responsible for two genocides and is looking forward to a third. NK rules its citizens by terror, mass killing, and family punishment. Myanmar is commiting genocide at the same time as indiscriminately killing civilians. Russia is occupying portions of multiple countries, invading one, and threatening to destabilize the world. Azerbaijan, Belarus, and Syria are totalitarian, with one supporting an unprovoked invasion, one having just finished one, and the third still killing citizens in a brutal civil war. Saudi Arabia and Iran are engaging in proxy wars and have completely destabilized Yemen. Afghanistan is ruled by the Taliban. Which of these ten is less evil than Israel? Then consider the terrible state of many African countries, whose governments exist entirely to pilfer taxes or enforce tribal supremacy.
Myanmar and Azerbaijan. Saudi Arabia is on the bubble.
24000+ civilians have died in the Rohingya genocide and at least 4000 have been killed in the civil war. Those numbers don't include other recent internal conflicts that Myanmar has dealt with by mass murder.
Azerbaijan is controlled by rampant corruption propping up one family that gains legitimacy by attacking its neighbor and expelling minorities. They blockaded Artsakh for more than half a year and then invaded, during a ceasefire. They've been supporting anti-Armenian pogroms since the 80s and destroying cultural and religious sites to delegitimize them. Even now they're trying to support a future invasion, despite Nagorno-Karabakh being a non-issue now that everyone has been forced to leave.
Saudi Arabia has inflamed Islamic terrorism, including supporting ISIS until it was dangerous to them, has millions of foreign workers in a system not much removed from slavery (which they only abolished in 1962; quite brave of a famously liberal prince to set his fifty concubines free earlier in the year), and denies basic rights to half its population due to their sex.
Not denying that they're evil, just not top-ten evil.
Various posts over the years have pointed out other situations around the world where small nations in conflict behave in similar ways.
They don't get criticism.
They don't get UN resolutions.
They don't get a hatred of them discussed as badges of honor.
This was all before recent events. The difference? Your premise: they have nothing to do with Judaism.
It's a good chunk of why I formulated my theory this isn't some disinterested disagreement with Israeli actions, but ignoble actors pushing crypto Jew hatred, knowing many will leap on with, "whew", a clear conscience.
It seems to have worked out better than they imagined, with the real deal coming out of the woodwork.
small nations in conflict behave in similar ways
Misrael's been at it for 100 years. That's a big part of if not the entire problem. No other country has that.
Misrael would, I think, objectively be in the top 10 most evil of countries in the world today based on its behavior. It might even crack the top five if you consider the effects of the bad name it’s giving to democracies.
Thanks for that. It reveals quite a lot about the weightings in your scoring system. Israel could move sharply away from being a contender for Top Baddie State by abandoning democracy. Good to know 🙂
Tip for young players. Allowing a short pause between something popping into your head and publishing it for the world to see, and judge you by, can be considerably to your advantage.
And yet again, the issue isn’t we want speech policed. We want the same rules enforced for all. If we are going to police the rhetoric of the right, we must police the rhetoric of the left.
The galling part is to let go of the policing when it looks like the left will be gored, without apologies or restoration to the conservatives run off campus.
It may be correct , but it is infuriating. Don't minimize the cost to the conservatives you are asking them to accept.
What conservatives run off campus?
Riley Gaines? Ben Shapiro? The journalist judge at Stanford?
And maybe, even though they aren't "conservative", people like Larry Summer for saying not liberal things? Stuff like that.
As above, Larry Summers was a university president. You guys want to run a bunch of university presidents off campus for not being pro-Israel enough. Which, go for it. University presidents kind of do need to reflect the values of the university.
Ben Shapiro was never on campus, so he can't really have been run off. Again see above.
Gains and the judge were visiting speakers who were aggressively protested. Their speech wasn't policed by the universities at all.
I'm looking for an example that comports with this case: a student or faculty member expelled or fired because of their speech. That's what's being proposed for supporters of Palestine.
The only close example I can think of is the Hamline Islamic Art professor, a firing which nobody defended. Is that the one case that you (and Eugene) are hanging this charge of hypocricy on? It's weak.
No, I don't want to run them off. I want the same rules applied to progressive and conservative speakers, faculty and students.
Given a choice, I prefer that no one it exclude or cancelled.
"You guys want to run a bunch of university presidents off campus for not being pro-Israel enough. "
You have that wrong. I want the to replace university leadership that does not protect its faculty, staff, and students from physical threats, intimidation, and harassment.
I've heard a lot about them having failed to condemn Hamas hard enough.
I think that issue was about not having express outrage about Oct 7 fast enough.
Indeed condemning Hamas on Oct 9 should not have been so hard. Jews on campus felt emotionally ignored.
Any time a student dies we get an immediate seemingly heart felt message from our president.
Some of our faculty lost family on Oct 7. Would it have bee so hard to express some outrage and deep sympathy?
... and that being at least part of the reason they need to be fired.
Only one has been fired.
That was for losing top donors.
What incensed then was campus anti-semitism and Magill's moral equivalency.
Me: You guys want to run a bunch of university presidents off campus for not being pro-Israel enough.
You: You have that wrong.
Later You: What incensed then was … moral equivalency.
Have any of your faculty lost family during Israel's brutal bombing in Gaza? How many clingers have expressed outrage or sympathy concerning that slaughter of innocents?
You're all partisanship and polemics and no principle, clinger.
We want intimidating, threatening behavior policed. Mere rhetoric we can stand.
The First Amendment issues are a useful distraction, tending to draw attention away from overwhelming, near unanimous world condemnation of Israel and its citizens. Certainly there is a handful of Metzitzah b'peh in the US and abroad, but the handful of practitioners of this form of support for Eretz Israel are flotsam, outnumbered by Flat Earthers, Moon Landing Deniers, and the many tiny bands following the songs of their own sirens.
Should we applaud Max Nordau (a Zionist whose theories were embraced by the Nazis) or any other Moses als Eugeniker? It matters very little if a genocidal maniac wears a Star of David or a Swastika: the world condemns genocide even when committed by Jews.
Should we forbid advocates of genocide from spreading the message of hate and myths of ethno-nationalist common descent? Certainly not: only by allowing the message of hate to be heard by all will the Iron Wall morph into a protective Iron Cage restraining the last prominent boil of ethno-nationalism.
Certainly there is a handful of Metzitzah b’peh in the US and abroad
Yeah, no anti-semitism here. All reasoned political disagreement.
Another moron who has earned muting.
Oooh,,, "Muting" that'll teach him!
Ladies, gentleman, and non-binaries, I give you a total fucking lunatic!
The charges of Ms. Kahn are accurate. They fear felt by many Jews on the MIT campus is real and is caused by acts of intimidation and harassment.
Not surprisingly, the pro-Hamas commenters, have nothing to say about the failure of MIT to discipline students who behavior breaks university norms of conduct.
Instead their refuge is to talk about international politics. That ploy only shows de facto how much they hate Jews.
Yes, MIT should discipline students who are tresspassing and harassing Jewish students and faculty.
Now how about you comment on whether or not Israel ought to be committing war crimes?
It's not my expertise to assess the legal status of their behavior. I don't think it is yours either.
However, to answer your question directly, Israel should not be committing war crimes. Neither should Hamas, Hizbollah, Russia, KAS, or the US. I hope that we agree about that.
The point is, you shouldn't read into the arguments people aren't making. I know you don't think Israel should be committing war crimes. I'm not going to accuse you of thinking otherwise just because you don't reaffirm it on every thread.
I will add that what I find disturbing is the unwillingness of Israel to control wanton attacks against Arabs in the West Bank and the relative silence of the press.
"How about?"
"How about?" You suck my cock?
"War Crimes"?
Like the Burning of Atlanta?/Torture of US Prisoners at Andersonville GA?, Bombing of Pearl Harbor? (wasn't only Military who were killed), Bombing of Dresden/Nagasaki/Himoshima??
What the Fuck "War Crimes" is Israel "Committing"?
Oh, you can't pursue the Ham-Ass rapist/killers because they're in Civilian Hospitals?
I hope you live to 110 years old and die stooling in your own Shit, but would be "Ironic" (Dontcha think?) if you caught a strain 9mm from some Ham-Ass Terrorist,
Merry Happy Birthday for your imaginary Born-of-a-Virgin-Zombie-God (Used to humor you Goys, but for what??)
Frank
Oh, Futurama beat you to that one by decades!
https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Zombie_Jesus
“Futurama?” I guess when you don’t have any actual retorts OK, I clicked on your link just for goofs and its repulsive Kiddie-Porn (isn’t non-repulsive Kiddie-Porn bad enough?) fortunately, I’m on some idiot Egyptian Doc’s work computer who doesn’t remember to log out…
Frank
Have you never heard of a cartoon? Shaboom? It's a drawing but on TV! They are a bit like porn for kids I suppose... but not to worry, Futurama is an adult-oriented cartoon. You and your Egyptian friend are safe.
Yeah, I've heard of a Cartoon, like your bullshit attempt to not look like a dick sucking faggot,
Any random 15-30 seconds of Loony Tunes Bugs Bunny/Road Runner has more comedy than an entire season of your Futurama Bullshit (Yes, I've watched it, I'm a "Simpsons" fan)
And the 3 Stooges were ridiculing Hitler almost 2 years before Pearl Harbor, (Today, Today? they're probably already "Canceled" by these Ham-Ass Cock Sucking Faggots) in "You Nazty Spy" (Columbia Pictures 1940)
"Futurama"??? seriously, do you still have your "Dilbert" autographed books?
Frank "I got a Rock"
You must've been really proud of your zombie Jesus joke.
So... just to be clear, are you a fan of the current Simpsons? Because if you are you REALLY shouldn't be criticizing other people's comedy tastes.
These bigots are your fans and target audience, Volokh Conspirators. . . and the reason strong, mainstream campuses no longer want bigot-hugging conservative on their faculties.
You'll always be able to land at Regent, Liberty, Ave Maria, Hillsdale, and maybe Brigham Young or Notre Dame.
I am pleased to see that Ms Magill has resigned. It is not a great idea to piss off $!00M donors.
The optics aren't great though.
How so? If she'd been found to been wearing Black Face 40 years ago she'd still be in there, like that sack of shit Ralph Northern.
Rich Jews pull strings to get US university president fired on account of insufficient fealty to Israel.
So that's supposed to be a sentence? So do you look more like Judge Smales from "Caddy Shack" or Mitt Romeney from Utah? Do you know any "Poor Jews"? sorry if we're more successful than your shit kicking Klan.
and define "Fealty" without looking it up, you fucking piece of shit cock sucking faggot,
did I miss any insults?
Frank
Rich people pull strings for many reasons... and are often successful
Why Hunter Biden's not in Jail (yet, yet? he'll get some bullshit community service and not even have to pay his evaded taxes back)
It unfortunately plays directly into antisemitic tropes.
All the George Soros conspiracy theories have sensitized me to it.
There are those for which it does.
But there are plenty of non-Jewish donors that are angry.
I note that it was you who complained that "Rich Jews pulls strings..." Isn't that one of the George Soros theories? You can't have it both ways.
That was the whole theory of the bad optics. I should’ve put it in quotes I guess.
Extra! Extra! Attention all antisemitic conspiracists! “Rich Jews pull strings to get US university president fired on account of insufficient fealty to Israel.”
What "George Soros conspiracy theories?"
The only thing I've heard is that George Soros funds the elections of prosecutors who try hard to avoid prosecuting people. That's neither a theory, nor a description of a conspiracy.
What are you talking about?
Really? There's an entire Wikipedia page dedicated to them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros_conspiracy_theories
Professor Armin Langer has noted that Soros is "the perfect code word" for conspiracy theories that unite antisemitism and Islamophobia.
So what?
So that's what Randal's talking about.
I frankly think you're lying that you've only heard about Soros prosecutors to play dumb for stupid Internet reasons.
There's an element of perceived betrayal - they forked over money to these woke institutions under the impression that these universities were just Fighting Racism and claims to the contrary were the product of jealous haters. Now these donors should be reflecting "wait, maybe those haters were right after all!"
Oops. Hi.
Try looking in the mirror before you complain about other people's optics.
Penn apparently still welcomes Ms. Magill on campus.
I am pleased to see that UCLA, however . . .
No “Reverend”/”Coach” Sandusky indeterminable insults/comments??? In the “Reverend”/”Coaches” Defense there is the Army/Navy game today (As a Navy Partisan, never got the appeal of the Army, stupid Uniforms, Stupid Unit Names (so the 101st “Airborne” isn’t but the 82d Airborne is??) whole units that got to wear Cowboy Hats/Boots, ) But at Penn Stare “Coach/Reverend” Jerry had access to some 90% of the grad-jew-ma-cating Seniors….
So I’m sensing….10,9,8,7 7:20 Eastern Time, he’ll comment within 7:25pm if not before
Frank “What do you call an Army Officer who likes women??”
I gotta take a bad taste shot at this one.
“What do you call an Army Officer who likes women??”
It has to be either a lesbian or a retiree.
No?
In the end the most important job of a university president is fundraising. That's a fact. Her optics were very poor. Her choice of law firm to coach her was terrible.
Academics is the job of the provost.
This episode will come in handy when better Americans decide to stop being so magnanimous toward superstitious gay-bashers, Republican racists, right-wing Islamophobes and misogynists, science-denying dumbasses, conservative transphobes, etc.
I have absolutely no doubt that everything she says is true -- I lived it at UMass Amherst and I'm not even Jewish. Academia is so corrupt that you couldn't fabricate this stuff.
"First, I was forced to leave my study group for my doctoral exams halfway through the semester because my group members told me that the people at the Nova massacre deserved to die because they were partying on stolen land. This negatively impacted me both emotionally and academically."
Damn right -- this isn't law school and respectfully EV, you are missing that distinction.
Law school you graduate, take the bar exam, and are done. Going for a Doctorate is very different -- she likely had to find a whole new committee which is worse than taking a 3-L and making the person a 1-L again. Far worse....
Even if she did... so?
"I was forced to leave my study group because my group members told me that trans women don't deserve to play women's sports since they're not 'real' women."
"I was forced to leave my study group because my group members told me that white people should feel guilty about slavery."
"I was forced to leave my study group because my group members told me that Blacks underperform because of their culture."
"I was forced to leave my study group because my group members told me that America is / isn't a Judeo-Christian nation."
"I was forced to leave my study group because my group members told me that gays all go to hell."
In all these cases, people need to learn to live with people with differing beliefs. If you can't handle it it's on you.
Yeah, bad example for her to cite.
She should have focused on the physical intimidation.
"I was forced to leave my study group because I was told that n*ggers weren't welcome there."
Do you honestly think that -- in 2023 -- *any* administrator would ignore that? Or OCR?
BREAKING NEWS
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/09/us/university-of-pennsylvania-president-resigns.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Eugene, Randal, and others who share their thinking, may think this regrettable news, but neurodoc thinks it wonderful, and only hopes that Harvard and MIT follow Penn's lead!
I'll only be satisifed if they take the honorable way out like those other Nazi fucks, Hitler and Goering.
Good riddance!!!!!
One down, 2000 more to go....
Our truth is marching on....
.
Did you have a similar sentiment when Prof. Volokh's departure from UCLA was announced?
If not, why not?
Will these crumbs make a meal for you before or after the bloody Civil War you keep predicting?
Worked the Goyim Holidays for years, just to be a good Mensch, then started noticing a good number of the Docs not working were Moose-Lums (yeah, Most Moose-lum Docs take Easter/Christ-mas off, how many Non-Mooselum Docs/Jews take off a month for Ramadan?) And none of them get it, they live in LA, ATL, NYC, got the Cable, BMW, get the Salk/Sabin even if they grow up in some shithole Cairo suburb, and still root for the Ham-Ass, that their home country (sensibly) won’t allow to come across the border.
Frank
If Eugene is doubtful about Talia Khan's account of how things are at MIT, let him consider the perspective and claims of one of the Coalition Against Apartheid pro-Palestinian leadership, Francesca Riccio-Ackerman, who has encouraged the doxxing of and other attacks on Israel-supporters there at MIT. https://twitter.com/still_francesca/status/1722668619320992088?s=20.
October 8th, 2023: CAA Supports Hamas’s Oct 7th Massacre
CAA sent out an email to all MIT undergrad dorms, put out a statement with the Palestine@MIT group, and posted on their social media accounts (Instagram, and X/Twitter) on October 7th and the following days. They unequivocally supported, justified, and glorified the terrorism committed by Hamas: ("Victory is ours", "..affirming the right of all occupied peoples to resist", "this resistance is 100% predictable and justified", "Palestinians cannot invade Palestine", etc.) Additionally (on social media and via email), they called to attend the Cambridge rally on Oct 9th, which celebrated the Oct 7th terrorist attacks, prior to any Israeli military response. This was their joint statement sent via email to the MIT community.
October 8th Sources
October 10th, 2023: Forbidden Chalking
Students chalked "Free Palestine", "Resist the Oppression", and more on steps outside Lobby 7 following the Oct 7th Jewish vigil (kumzitz).
October 10th Sources
October 17th, 2023: Libel and Misinformation Spread
An email falsely claiming Israel launched a rocket at a hospital killing 500 was sent to the entire MIT undergraduate email chain. It was proven that the PIJ misfired this rocket, yet to this date, the CAA has not retracted this libel nor apologized for spreading falsehood, even after being called out. Instead, the Jewish student who responded to them was verbally attacked for "supporting a genocide".
*Evidence that the damage was caused by a mid-flight failure of an Islamic Jihad rocket: (NYT, WSJ, CNN, NPR). The Senate Intelligence Committee, as well as President Joe Biden, have confirmed this investigation, with Biden telling Israeli PM Netanyahu that it “appears as though it was done by the other team, not you.”*
October 17th Sources
October 19th, 2023: Calls for Violence at Rally
Rally outside the Student Center with chants “One Solution: Intifada Revolution” and “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”.
Some protesters directly harassed Israeli students. One attendee allegedly tried to run an Israeli student over with his bike and said “Your ancestors [referring to Holocaust victims] didn’t die to kill more people,” as if Holocaust victims had a choice.
October 19th Sources
October 23, 2023: CAA Interrupts Classes to Spread its Propaganda
The MIT CAA staged a walkout on October 23rd.
Lectures were disrupted for the walkout with chants of “Free Palestine.” See here for 3.091, Introduction to Solid-State Chemistry, and here for 18.06, Linear Algebra, among many others.
Posters were placed on each seat in lecture halls advertising the walkout.
They then gathered and chanted outside the steps of Lobby 7, an unauthorized protest area.
October 23rd Sources
October 30, 2023: CAA “Die In” in Lobby 7, Banned Protest Space
The CAA publicly advertised and then ran a “die-in,” posing within Lobby 7 and disrupting traffic, despite rules prohibiting such indoor demonstrations.
October 30th Sources
November 2nd, 2023: CAA Storms MISTI Offices and Harasses Staff
After launching a campaign against the MISTI-Israel Lockheed Martin Trust Fund, the CAA stormed the MISTI (MIT Israel internship) offices and harassed MISTI staff. To quote Prof L on the event: “They insistently rattled the door handles of offices that were closed with staff inside; and they congregated outside of and entered the office that facilitates MISTI’s programming in the Middle East, and at least one other office. Their chants included: “From the river to the sea…”, “MISTI, MISTI, you can’t hide,” and cries associating MISTI with genocide. After the incident, many staff reported feeling alarmed, intimidated and even afraid during the protest. Some staff members said they felt trapped in their offices, anxious about the prospect of verbal and/or physical assault. The students later protested outside the office of the faculty director of MIT-Israel, linking his name with genocide.” They also stormed into MIT President Sally Kornbluth's office, who wasn't present at the time.
November 2nd Sources
November 8th, 2023: Posted “Sally You Can’t Hide” on Social Media
A video was posted on the CAA's Instagram account showing a poster with President Sally Kornblunth’s name with painted blood. This poster was later used at the CAA's illegal blockade. References to Jewish Professors Eran BJ and EL were also on posters. These were perceived as threats and intimidation.
November 8th Sources
November 9th, 2023: Blockade Rally Out of Control
Protested all day in Lobby 7, against MIT policy
Pushing and shoving them when attempting to
Chant “From River to the Sea”
Student was shoved by a protester
CAA remains after warnings to leave after 12:15 pm
Hundreds of unaffiliated protesters invited by the CAA. Non-students arrived to protest and flood Lobby 7 area, welcomed by CAA in their email inviting non-MIT affiliated
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Czb_tNSO1sq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Warnings issued by Hillel and MIT Police to avoid Lobby 7 for safety concerns
Chants outside Lobby 7: Intifada, Resistance is justified, From River to the Sea
MIT faculty members harassing students
The MIT Department Head of the Department of Urban Science and Planning sent the following email to students insinuating he would defend them from the consequences of breaking MIT’s policies. The DEI Officer for DUSP who cosigned this email, Sophia Hasenfus, had previously liked on X/Twitter posts stating that "Israel doesn't have a right to exist" and denying the beheading of infants, as seen here (the X account is no longer public).
November 9th Sources
November 12th, 2023: Boston Rally Blocks Mass Ave
The CAA co-sponsored a rally that came to protest at MIT, blocking Mass Ave and entrances to Lobby 7. Violent chants calling for “Global Intifada” and “There is only one solution: Intifada” rang through MIT’s campus (once again, an allusion to “Final Solution”). Not only this but there were speeches directly aimed at inciting violence, for example, “It is our duty to fight… history requires trouble… resistance is resistance…it is not enough to exist passively…not enough for us to come out and march…we have to shake history with our own two hands…when we free Palestine the whole damn world is coming with us…resistance requires sacrifice.”
In fact, the leaders of the CAA gave speeches themselves that claimed they wouldn’t listen to the MIT administration, “Sally Kornbluth is new to MIT; she doesn’t know how we operate yet. We won't back down…We stood up to one of the most powerful institutes in the world and got THEM to back down!”
In addition, there were problematic posters, such as this blood libel against Jews:
That all seems like protected speech other than the bike thing. What exactly is your point here?
All?
I think you missed reading the parts of physical intimidation, blocking access to classrooms and offices, violating announced rules on what can be done in building – rules certainly within MIT’s property rights. You seem to want to be blind to direct physical threats, intimidation, and persistent harassment contrary to stated rules of campus conduct.
And for the rest, even protected speech can get Sally fired.
Blocking access… I mean if this all comes down to blocking access I’m not impressed.
The bike thing is the only physical intimidation I saw in there, and I did mention it. The bike thing. All this over the the thing? Still not super impressed. If the bike guy apologizes, everyone’s happy?
You're not impressed, because you were not prevented from doing your university business.
The whole string of CAA actions was pervasive, continuing, and directly physcally threatening. Clear inviolation of Title VI. Yet MIT did not revoke the charter of CAA as a student organization and issue an anti-trespassing order. It did not suspend students who disobeyed clear orders issued to prevent physical violence, because some might have their visas revoked. That is molly-coddling.
Blocking Mass Ave is a crime, not speech. As I said you want to remain deliberately blind.
And as for CAA, all their bad acting out is not going to stop Israel from doing want needs to be done in Gaza.
I just don't see much evidence of "directly physically threatening" in neurodoc's post other than the bike thing.
Whether you are impressed or not, content neutral time, manner and place regulations of speech that disrupts lectures and blocks access are permissible.
That being said, much of what CAA said (e.g., “Victory is ours” “There is only one solution: Intifada,” “From the river to the sea” and “It is our duty to fight”) is protected speech.
Whether there were continuing, pervasive threats directed at individuals (the bike thing, “you can’t hide,” posters of specific individuals with blood on them) is fact based and I wouldn’t make any judgment based on neurodoc’s post.
again, Josh. You were not there. you basically are claiming Jewish students and faculty are lying
What lie did I claim Jewish students and faculty are making?
you weren't there to see it. it was overwhelmingly present.
try giving the victims some degree of credibility
What was overwhelmingly present? Protests and speech? No doubt. Physical threats? Given that neurodoc's post is 99% protected speech and 1% physical threats, it's easy to conclude that physical threats are not overwhelming present, or neurodoc would've had more to talk about than just the bike thing.
Don Nico welcomes homophobia, transphobia, and other forms of bigotry on campuses -- especially when that bigotry is school policy on conservative-controlled campuses -- and doesn't seem to mind when some people are strenuously discriminated against because they are agnostics, atheists, Muslims, or even Jews on those conservative-controlled campuses.
But we have finally found a form of campus bigotry -- and one to which he not only objects but also gets quite lathered about.
This doesn't sound like progress or principle to me.
Just another day in the clingerverse.
“That all seems like protected speech…”
That’s the game, isn’t it? You come down hard on some people for things they say (nothing so remotely outrageous as “advocacy of genocide”!), and then, when other people engage in actual advocacy of genocide, you hide behind “This is protected speech!”
It was a fun game for President Magill, while it lasted.
Until the House Republicans provide a similar platform to gays and others who are afflicted by the bigots on conservative-controlled campuses, they and Talia Khan can line up alphabetically and kiss my ass.
Thank you for the list of details i one place.
Okay...
here, let me fix that for you
Not to say that her complaints of uneven enforcement of stupid and vague hate speech rules are wrong, but she needs to grow up and accept that snowflakes melt every summer so being a snowflake isn’t a good life choice.
Or it’s a clever attempt to get university officials to live up to their body slams of lesser threatening verbiage "that-has-nothing-to-do-with-particular-content and is evenly applied because of harrassment and threats, golly, we promise!"
In short, using their university rules, the U failed horribly at even handed application, exposing it as the joke, the political oppression tool, it has been all along.
As is often the case (though not always), Ken White had one of the better takes on the table-pounding Stefanik. Prof. Volokh might find it particularly interesting, as some of White's thoughts parallel many of EV's 1st Amendment positions.
Here are a couple of selections from White's Popehat Report substack Thursday (this one free):
White’s piece provides a blunt description of a broad range of stupidity, credulousness, disingenuousness, and cynically malicious intent (some on both sides, without engaging in both-siderism, and with cites!), plus some ways to address all that. Thoughtful and useful, well worth reading in full (search on the title).
“is calling for the genocide of a group against your policy” is an easy question with a one-word answer, you’re wrong. I understand you want the answer to be easy, but that’s not the same thing as it being easy [description and examples follow].
I had a look at the [description and examples follow] bit of Popehat's post and found them .... unconvincing.
There is a straightforward one word answer, depending on the policy each college has - yes, no, or sometimes.
The answer obviously wasn't "yes" otherwise they'd have said so. And equally obviously they didn't feel up to answering "no" or "sometimes". But if the truthful answer is not one you think you can defend in public, then maybe it's not a good answer. With the benefit of hindsight maybe trying to dodge the question wasn't the best tactic.
In practice we all know which calls for genocide are OK with university administrations, and which are not. In a way, it's nice that these apparatchiks still have enough vestigial capacity for embarrassment that they dodged rather than fess up.
Right. He does not grapple with the fact that "Kylie Jenner is still a man" or "George Floyd was not murdered" will get you disciplined, while "Gas the Jews" won't.
I'm pretty sure he does grapple with it, and also you mean Caitlyn/Bruce Jenner, not Kylie.
Did you miss "The college presidents did a rather clumsy job of saying, accurately but unconvincingly, that the answer depends on the context." ?? That's the sometimes you are looking for. (White then did a better job than the college presidents explaining it, granted it's easier when you have time to develop and edit the answer.)
But you just blithely skipped over the pretty obvious truism: Hard problems raise complex questions that lack glib, one-word answers. The stubborn thirst for simple answers to hard questions is bad for America. It’s anti-intellectual, pro-ignorance, pro-stupidity, pro-bigotry, pro-reactionary, pro-totalitarianism, pro-tyranny, pro-mob.
...possibly either because the concept confuses you, or you didn't like the accurate insult of that second sentence, You — and I say this with love — absolute fucking dupes."
I think it’s you that is confused by the concepts. They were asked what their colleges policies were, not why they were what they were.
If you can’t say what your policy is without a confused ramble, how could anyone subject to college discipline possibly know what rules they are subject to ? How could anyone reviewing the colleges disciplinary procedures ever be able to say whether they had been applied honestly ?
Popehats pretendy giddy fit is just making smoke in an attempt to distract attention from the obvious fact that these colleges do not in fact have a policy on what may or may not be said in their colleges.
They simply have a disciplinary procedure.
Which is applied differently according to who you are and what side you are on.
Although a general theme is discernible – that which is offensive to lefty sentiments is verboten- an element of spice is added by two exogenous variables.
The first being political pressure from the student body for yet more radical censoring and punishing of even milquetoast centrism or liberalism. The second being the alumni and donors who can very occasionally be woken from their stupor and might ask why calling for the extermination of the Jews is ok, but calling for boys to stay out of girls sports is not merely “extermination” of trans folk, but the sort of extermination on which the college frowns.
‘the answer depends on the context’ is the answer. It may not be pithy, but it is clear.
these colleges do not in fact have a policy
The opposite of what they and Popehat said.
I know you're not confused. You’re picking a fight, and making shit up to do it.
Well it’s no surprise that as a Breyer fan you think “it depends on the context” ( but we can’t say exactly how until we’re passing judgement on you in a disciplinary proceeding) constitutes a “policy.”
But it’s not - any more than “don’t do anything I’d disapprove of” is a law.
Of course they say they have a policy. They just can’t articulate what it is. Or rather they won’t. Because the “policy” is simply - “we have a disciplinary procedure which will be applied against our enemies but not against our friends. Until the donors complain, when we’ll make smoke for a bit.”
But in the spirit of magnanimity, let me suggest a way out for these Ivy League folk. They can give a few examples. They can list a few genocides that it’s OK under their policy to call for. And a few that it’s not OK to call for. And then they can explain in each case how the conclusion ok or not ok follows from their policy, taking into account relevant context, all in a way that a student or prof would be able to predict with confidence in advance of making a call for a bit of genocide.
If it’s all a bit difficult they can write us an essay with concrete examples rather than abstract fluff. And we’ll see if there’s an actual policy behind the curtain.
Was this his first encounter with public congressional hearings?
A “student group” that burglarizes offices is not protesting. It is engaging in terrorism. Its members need to be prosecuted as violent criminals.
Once imembers of the community are targeted, everything changes. Violent acts against individuals are crimes and need to be treated as crimes. They are not acts of protest.
Where did you get burglary from? Your butt? You know what you get when you butt burgle.
It's true the intent here was not to steal the other group's staplers. It was to use violence to intimidate them.
Which not only is a crime, but a stain on any higher-level institution of education, let alone MIT.
he does not want to hear or see the truth. He'd rather protect the pro-hamas crew.
What violence? Are you finding more claims located in your butt?
Latest from UMass. That's a busy cafeteria they are blockading...
https://dailycollegian.com/2023/12/umass-dissenters-and-students-for-justice-in-palestine-hold-their-final-protest-of-the-semester/
First, I was forced to leave my study group for my doctoral exams halfway through the semester because my group members told me that the people at the Nova massacre deserved to die because they were partying on stolen land. This negatively impacted me both emotionally and academically.
Hardly anywhere in the world has not been "stolen." Arabs stole most of the Middle East and North Africa in the glorious conquests of the 7th and 8th centuries. Most of Russia was stolen by the Russian Empire, having previously been stolen by various assortments of Tatars. Western Poland was stolen from Germany, in compensation for the Soviet Union stealing what used to be the eastern half of Poland. The Portuguese, Spanish, British, Dutch and French stole large chunks of the world, mostly from people who had previously stolen it off the people who had been there before them. When they gave it back, it was often not to the people they'd originally taken it from.
But just how clueless do you have to be, as a student in the USA, to whine about "partying on stolen land." Is MIT a university or a kindergarten ?
This negatively impacted me both emotionally and academically.
I agree with EV's take on this, but I think it's fair to say that she is obviously paying homage to the standard justifications for disciplining anyone who makes anyone else (so long as you are an approved anyone else) feel uncomfortable with words.
From sea to shining sea, America will be free... of Indians!
The point being, Lee, if stealing land is A-OK and the normal thing everyone's doing, then you can't really fault the Palestinians for wanting to steal it back.
No, there are two points.
1. Any American student wittering on about “partying on stolen land” in connection with Israel, and ignoring the fact that most of the planet’s land surface is stolen land, demonstrates that they are a fool or a knave. or most likely, a foolish knave.
2. The A-OK for land stealing convention that you describe went along with the understanding that the dispossessed were entitled to steal it back, which in turn went along with the understanding that the dispossessed who made such an attempt against a much more powerful enemy could reasonably expect to be wiped out. The old convention has – at least in the west – largely been replaced by a new one – don’t upset the status quo. Whatever the historical rights and wrongs, if you start a war to reclaim your historic lands, you’re in the wrong.
The Palestinians lost three quarters of a century ago. They should accept defeat. That’s better for everyone, especially themselves, than the return of the old convention.
I can’t tell if you’re missing the point entirely or what. This seems like a non-sequitur.
In 25 words or less, what is the "point"?
I think Randal’s point is that my point – that singling out Israel for “land-stealing” is selective prosecution – is not a point he wishes to discuss, and that instead he would like to divert the conversation onto a different point – when and to what extent is military action justifiable.
Since the latter is an enormous point, we would not have finished it until we have both been dug in to a depth of six feet, and so we would never get round to discussing my point.
If you want it in fewer than 25 words, Randal’s point is :
“Look ! Wabbit !”
I feel like I was really clear...
That already was under 25 words.
Not A-OK:
"The old convention has – at least in the west – largely been replaced by a new one – don’t upset the status quo. Whatever the historical rights and wrongs, if you start a war to reclaim your historic lands, you’re in the wrong."
I mean... that's what she said. (She's Palestinian.)
Well, obviously when it comes to stolen land possession is 9/10ths of the law, probably accruing at about 1/10th per decade.
So yeah, I think Palestinians are justified in trying to regain their land, and Israel is equally justified in making sure they fail.
I will point out that when Israel was created in the aftermath of WW2 there were about a million Palestinians dislocated. Just 2-3 years earlier there were at least 5 million Germans expelled from their ancestral homelands in Czechia, Prussia, Hungary, who had occupied their land at least as long as the Palestinians had. They seem to have come to terms with their expulsions.
The Kashmir question has also lingered since 1947, and in total 12-15 million people were dislocated in the Indian Pakistan partition. While that still does inspire some terrorism, and there have been 2 or 3 wars, I don't think very few people think the entire question should be opened up and reversed.
"Hardly anywhere in the world has not been “stolen.”"
Yes, this. One might make the argument that Israel, including the West Bank, is the ancestral home of the Jews, and that the Kingdom of Jordan is that of Muslims.
It irks me when people in say the whites in North America stole the land of the indigenous people. There's only so much land in the world, and, as a matter of fact, the indigenous here, when encountered, didn't even have a strong concept of private property; and by no means can it be asserted that ALL of North America is "theirs." Such nonsense.
Well, even before that, the indigenous peoples encountered by the post-Colombian Europeans had already stolen the land from the previous inhabitants (and killed them all) a few thousand years before. And the archaeological record suggests that that group also wiped out a group of previous inhabitants, too.
And even if "indigenous people" didn't have a strong concept of property rights, that didn't keep them from warring against "other" indigenous people over control of land.
Only in the contemporary intellectual world, where people survive doing nothing more material than talking, do we have people who think of themselves as better than that. WE ALL STAND ON THE "DIRTY" WORK OF OTHERS. And I hear very few people *anywhere* willing to give up the benefits of that.
Even today, all you Righteous Ones need to ignore the material details of how all your more valuable goods are produced. If you'd all stop buying them, we'd be half way to a better world, no?
No. Because your better world includes those goods, without a [detailed, plausible] explanation of how "righteous" systems can produce them.
This is a bit tangental, but given that universities, most of the faculty and student bodies, it seems, favor cancelling former slave owners, now even George Washington, where are the calls to cancel Mohammed? He had 11 male and 7 female slaves. I don't hear the outrage about him.
Might look at what has happened to people who defame the prophet.
Yes! Remember the "draw Mohammed" contest? 🙂
That's different!
Isn't it always?
Always.
Just like bigotry when that bigotry cloaked in silly, old-timey superstition . . . right, Don Nico?
It is - it's nutpicking.
Saying 'well if people did this other vile shit I'd bet the school would sanction them!' is a weak argument. Not because it's untrue, but because it has no real world upshot or recommendation.
It's just right-wing hostility towards higher education with a slightly new coat of paint. And you, who should know better, are jumping for it it.
What are you imagining that cancelling Mohammed would look like? It's not like a bunch of American universities have buildings named after him.
Have you considered all the people who walk around, unharassed, even though they are named "Mohammed"?
(As it should be, Dopey.)
Do you think we got to this laudable state by expelling students and hounding school Presidents?
No. Nor by purging symbols of the past. That's just another bad behavior of nasty, ineffectual people.
We don't harass students name Mohammed because we have purged symbols of the past...?
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/12/06/should-universities-ban-advocacy-of-genocide/?comments=true#comment-10346274