The Volokh Conspiracy
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Colorado Court Rules Trump Engaged in Insurrection, but Cannot Be Disqualified Under Section Three Because the President is not an "Officer of the United States"
The court ruled against Trump on his strongest arguments, but accepted a weak one.

Yesterday, a Colorado trial court ruled that Donald Trump engaged in insurrection, but still cannot be disqualified under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, because the president is not an "officer of the United States." The Court thereby rejected relatively more plausible arguments against disqualifying Trump, but accepted a very weak one.
Section 3 states that "No person" can hold any state or federal office if they had previously been "a member of Congress, or… an officer of the United States" or a state official, and then "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." To my mind, the most difficult issue raised by Trump's effort to stay in power after losing the 2020 election is whether his conduct amounted to "engaging in insurrection" or giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States. By contrast, I think it's pretty obvious that the president qualifies as an officer of the United States. It would be utterly ridiculous if Section 3 disqualifies an insurrectionist low-level bureaucrat, but not an insurrectionist who holds the most powerful office in the land. For obvious reasons, the latter is a vastly greater menace than the former.
Judge Sarah Wallace nonetheless managed to somehow rule against Trump on his best argument, while ruling for him on his worst.
I think it's pretty obvious that the January 6 attack on the Capitol qualifies as an "insurrection." After all, the attackers were trying to use force to block the transfer of power to the rightful winner of a presidential election. Whether Donald Trump was closely enough connected to these events is a closer question. After all, he didn't personally storm the Capitol himself, and his statements before the attack can be interpreted in different ways. It is also debatable whether his earlier efforts to illegally overturn the election results qualify as engaging in insurrection or giving "aid and comfort" to those who did.
In a detailed and compelling analysis Judge Wallace explains why Trump's actions on and before January 6 do qualify as engaging in insurrection, and are not protected by the First Amendment. Among other things, she shows that Trump's exhortations to the mob to "fight like hell" are best interpreted as literal incitements to violence, rather than merely figurative hyperbole - especially in context of his longstanding advocacy and defense of political violence by his supporters:
The language Trump employed must be understood within the context of his promotion and endorsement of political violence as well as within the context of the circumstances as they existed in the winter of 2020, when calls for violence and threats relating to the 2020 election were escalating. For years, Trump had embraced the virtue and necessity of political violence; for months, Trump and others had been falsely claiming that the 2020 election had been flagrantly rigged, that the country was being "stolen," and that something needed to be done….
Knowing of the potential for violence, and having actively primed the anger of his extremist supporters, Trump called for strength and action on January 6, 2021, posturing the rightful certification of President Biden's electoral victory as "the most corrupt election in the history, maybe of the world" and as a "matter of national security," telling his supporters that they were allowed to go by "very different rules" and that if they didn't "fight like hell, [they're] not going to have a country anymore." Such incendiary rhetoric, issued by a speaker who routinely embraced political violence and had inflamed the anger of his supporters leading up to the certification, was likely to incite imminent lawlessness and disorder…
Trump has, throughout this litigation, pointed to instances of Democratic lawmakers and leaders using similarly strong, martial language, such as calling on supporters to "fight" and "fight like hell." The Court acknowledges the prevalence of martial language in the political arena…. This argument, however, ignores both the significant history of Trump's relationship with political violence and the noted escalation in Trump's rhetoric in the lead up to, and on, January 6, 2021. It further disregards the distinct atmosphere of threats and calls for violence existing around the 2020 election and its legitimacy. When interpreting Trump's language, the Court must consider not only the content of his speech, but the form and context as well….
Consequently, the Court finds that Petitioners have established that Trump engaged in an insurrection on January 6, 2021 through incitement, and that the First Amendment does not protect Trump's speech.
The judge also explains in detail why incitement of the type Trump engaged in qualifies an "engaging" in insurrection, and why the attack on the Capitol was indeed an insurrection, and not merely a non-insurrectionary riot.
Much of the analysis in this part of the decision rests on factual findings about Trump's actions and motives, which are entitled to broad deference from appellate courts. In Colorado courts, as in federal court, trial courts' factual conclusions are only reversible on appeal if there is "clear error."
In contrast to the long and detailed analysis of the insurrection issue, which goes on for some 35 pages, Judge Wallace's discussion of whether the president is an "officer of the United States" is short, cursory, superficial - and extremely weak. She emphasizes that "To lump the Presidency in with any other civil or military office is odd indeed and very troubling to the Court because…. Section Three explicitly lists all federal elected positions except the President and Vice President." The other elected positions, however, are all legislative or electoral (members of Congress and the electoral college). Unlike executive branch officials, they cannot issue legally binding orders (as opposed to merely voting on laws), and therefore might not meet an ordinary language intuitive definition of an officer as a person who has the power to issue binding orders to subordinates. Not so with the president, who obviously does have that authority.
The presumption that the presidency is excluded unless specifically listed is the exact opposite of the on Judge Wallace should have made. To the contrary: it would be absurd to include all other elected and appointed officials - including low-level bureaucrats - while excluding the president - the official with the greatest power, and thus the one whose involvement in insurrection poses the greatest potential threat. Such an exclusion violates the longstanding rule that courts should avoid interpretations of law that lead to absurd conclusions. If such a result is clearly compelled by the text, there may be no choice. But there is no such indisputable clarity here. Judge Wallace "agrees that there are persuasive arguments on both sides." If so, she should have picked the one that does not lead to absurdity.
Judge Wallace cites no direct contemporary evidence that people at the time of the ratification of the Amendment thought the president was not an "officer of the United States" under Section 3. Scholars such as Mark Graber have provided extensive evidence that they did (see here and here). In addition, to the extent that constitutional interpretation should be based on the "ordinary meaning" of words as understood by members of the public, it is pretty obvious that an ordinary reader would assume that the president is covered, and would not embrace the absurd conclusion that it and the vice presidency are the only offices excluded. That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry that leads ordinary people to hate lawyers!
Judge Wallace relies heavily on inferences from passages in the original 1787 Constitution suggesting that the president is not an "officer of the United States," even though the original Constitution also repeatedly refers to the presidency as an office. The inferences the judge relies on are highly questionable. But even if correct, they have little bearing on the meaning of "officer" under Section Three, enacted some eighty years later.
Finally, Judge Wallace claims the presidency isn't covered because Section 3 applies only to officers who have taken an oath to "support" the Constitution, whereas the President takes an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." But, as she admits, "an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution encompasses the same duties as an oath to support the Constitution." Thus, there is no meaningful difference between the two, and no reason to think that a reference to one necessarily excludes the other. At the very least, this kind of circuitous inference isn't enough to justify an absurd conclusion.
Unlike the court's ruling on the insurrection issue, the decision on the meaning of "officer of the United States" is a purely legal conclusion, rather than one that rests at least in part on judgments of fact. It therefore is not entitled to any deference on appeal.
This decision is likely to be appealed all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court. It could even potentially reach the federal Supreme Court. The only certainty here is that the legal battle over Trump and Section 3 is far from over.
Judge Wallace's ruling is nonetheless notable for its thorough analysis of the insurrection issue, for its far less defensible ruling on whether the president is an "officer of the United States," and for being the first decision on Trump's eligiblity that reaches the merits. Previous rulings by the Minnesota Supreme Court (which ruled that Trump was eligible to be on the GOP primary ballot because there is no legal requirement that a primary ballot be limited to candidates legally eligible for the office they seek) and a Michigan state court (which dismissed the whole issue as a nonjusticiable "political question"), dismissed claims against Trump on procedural grounds, which leave open the possibility that he could be legally disqualified. If the Michigan decision is correct (I think it isn't), state election officials could potentially remove Trump from the ballot on Section 3 grounds, without any judicial review.
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If Jan 6 was an insurrection, what were those autonomous zones in Seattle and other cities attacked by BLM and Antifa?
I can understand people not liking Trump, I don't like him either. But so afraid of him, as if he was going to become a dictator? Look at how many times he accepted being blocked on his damn wall and kept coming back with some new trick? That's not the action of a lawbreaker. Compare that to Biden and his student loan forgiveness crap that he admitted was unconstitutional and went ahead with anyway.
TDS sucks. Get over it.
Is anyone who engaged in the BLM riots running for president?
Oh, only Presidential candidates get charged with crimes?
I guess Biden's not running then. You've got a scoop!
Even if your first sentence were not blisteringly stupid, it wouldn't imply the second sentence.
Even if your comment weren't blisteringly stupid, it is just assertions and doesn't address anything I said.
Try an actual answer next time.
How does "Oh, only Presidential candidates get charged with crimes?" follow from not guilty's comment? Plenty of people are charged with crimes who are not Presidential candidates. There would be much legal attention paid to anyone who engaged in BLM riots if they were running for President and polling well. Plenty of January 6th insurrectionists who were not Presidential candidates were charged with crimes. One in New Mexico was removed as county commissioner because of the 14th amendment, section 3 after he engaged in the January 6th insurrection.
The second sentence does not follow from the first; if only Presidential candidates are charged with crimes does not mean the converse is true.
Your blisteringly stupid premise: "X is charged with a crime implies X is a Presidential candidate"
An implied and correct premise*: "Biden is not charged with a crime"
Concluding that Biden is not a Presidential candidate would require that the initial premise be "X is not charged with a crime implies X is not a Presidential candidate" (which is equivalent to the converse of YBSP).
You are a failure at logic.
* Biden is in fact not charged with a crime, but if he were (or is in the future) then YBSP would imply that he is a Presidential candidate.
Oh for Pete's sake! My two sentences were clearly connected in any normal language sense, and if you can't see it, then go ahead and think I'm that stupid, I'll reciprocate, and the world will continue to revolve.
Well, except that your statements are wrong and mine are not, and you've managed to continue that streak.
Oh, only Presidential candidates get charged with crimes?
Crimes are not the issue, here. Plenty of rioters from that summer went to jail.
Don't change the subject.
Kamela Harris
You are wrong on what engaged means.
And what running for President means.
You never fail to impress!
Bullshyte Gaslighto.
Did Trump promise to provide bail money to anyone arrested in the Jan 6th protests? Harris DID for the BLM criminals.
And a Vice President must be eligible to serve as President, so the extent to which Trump would be disqualified, Harris would also be disqualified.
He promised to pardon them all.
Most of the people swept up by the cops in the BLM protests weren't criminals.
They didn't try to overturn an election.
Harris DID for the BLM criminals.
Not sure why that's grounds for criticism. Do you think people should be kept in jail just because they don't have the money to make bail, while it's fine for those who do have the money to go free?
Short answer: Yes.
Wow. You're a disgusting person, all the more so since you're proud of it.
Hmm.
I'm pretty sure that if this were true that Republicans would have impeached Biden already.
Funny, assuming the Republicans are competent. Even funnier that you think I should be the one making that connection.
I don't assume the Republicans are competent, but they are so desperate to impeach Biden that they embrace any unlikely conspiracy theory that might get them there. That those blind pigs failed to find your acorn suggests that everyone who would like to see Biden impeached is too incompetent or distrusted to get them going on it. Far more likely that you're just wrong.
Far more likely that you just don't comprehend basic language. Your comment clearly implied that Republicans were competent enough to impeach Biden. Now you try to walk that back, as if competency is a yes/no proposition, and Republicans are either fully competent (which no one believes) or full incompetent (which apparently you now try to claim).
I'm not the one insisting that incompetence at one thing means incompetence at all things. House Republicans are incompetent at governing (it doesn't interest them, anyway) but they could manage a vote to impeach if they had evidence as strong as you assert but provide no evidence for. Instead the House Republicans investigating impeachment make fools of themselves with weak conspiracy theories that their own witnesses rebut.
Have you considered that they're just not into impeachment as a futile gesture? Maybe they got that out of their systems back with Clinton?
What's the point of impeaching Biden while Democrats would vote to acquit?
'they’re just not into impeachment as a futile gesture?'
Nobody would enetertain the notion for longer than it took to have a quick laugh.
Ah, so all the "impeach Joe Biden" nonsense is just that?
Wouldn't the Dems have impeached Trump due to an insurrection?
They certainly did two over laughably non-existent things, but insurrection did not even make the unbelievably low bar Dems set for impeachment.
By the time they decided to call that an insurrection by Trump, he was already gone. It's very doubtful that you can, constitutionally, impeach somebody who no longer holds an office.
It was labeled an insurrection on January 6th itself. The Guardian reported Biden's comments from January 6th:
Democrats cite rarely used part of 14th Amendment in new impeachment article is a headline from January 12, 2021. The story describes Section 3 as "a little known section of a Reconstruction-era constitutional amendment"; the world would be a better place if events had not brought it to widespread attention. It does appear that nobody was arguing then that it was self-executing, though.
It’s very doubtful that you can, constitutionally, impeach somebody who no longer holds an office.
It was done in England. What do you see in the U.S. Constitution which rules it out?
The second impeachment did charge Trump with incitement of insurrection. https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/20449065/house-impeachment-resolution-final.pdf
Well, that's not him being "charged with insurrection", either, but it's still beside the point.
The constitutional question is whether he did the act which the 14th Amendment declares is a "disability", not whether he was prosecuted for violation of a particular federal statute.
(Assuming the provision applies to the President, of course.)
Impeach with what votes?
If they don't have the unity to shut down the government in a budget battle, they sure as hell don't have the unity to impeach a President.
I know that Ilya is an immigrant and hence doesn’t know our history, but a scintilla of knowledge would be helpful.
How about the time that people took guns into Congress and shot Congressmen — with bullets — nearly killing one Congressman?
Or about 20 years after that, when some idiots tried to blow the place up — with explosives — one of which actually detonated and did some real damage to a cloakroom?
Neither of those were considered “insurrections” and they involved deadly force — bullets & bombs — not someone with a spear drinking Nancy Pelosi’s beer.
Does Ilya really think that this country is so weak that it can be overthrown merely because someone swiped a bottle of beer? Even very nice (read “expensive” beer)… Did Ilya actually graduate from an accredited law school?!?
And has he ever heard of something called “continuity of government” plans? You could blast the entire Capitol building off the face of the earth — which almost happened on September 11th — and the government would survive.
Has Ilya ever heard of Mount Weather? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Weather_Emergency_Operations_Center
It’s really quite irresponsible to call January 6th an insurrection because when actual insurrections inevitably happen again — as they did in the 1950s and 1970s — it will justify a wholesale suspension of our civil rights. Something that I like to think Ilya would not like to see.
We can argue if Jan 6th was a government plot — or more likely a clusterfuck caused by multiple governmental bureaucracies simply not bothering to talk to each other — even if, worst case, it was all organic, it had no more likelihood of preventing the peaceful transfer of power than Ilya does of being appointed to SCOTUS.
The actual threat — to the extent there is one — is more the Banana Republic stunts like trying to declare Presidential candidates ineligible to run…
The objective of the insurrection on January 6th was to prevent Joe Biden from replacing Donald Trump as President; transferring power to the next legitimate president is a fundamental operation of the US constitution. That it failed does not make it less of an insurrection. The Civil War failed to separate the Confederate states from the US but was nonetheless an insurrection.
In contrast, shooting at Congressmen or even assassinating a President is a terrible crime but does not hinder or prevent execution of the Constitution, as an insurrection would require in this opinion's definition.
But "attempted to overturn an election" isn't the definition of insurrection. It's a lot wider than that, even if we ignore that 'overturning' an election by proving fraud is actually a normal legal thing.
What's going on here is a desperate effort to, on the one hand, reduce the burden of proof for finding insurrection to an absolute minimum, to overcome the fact that Trump can't in any legally relevant way be connected to the people who actually broke into the Capitol, and the other cases against Trump require spectacular levels of confirmation bias to take seriously.
While at the same time narrowing what counts as "insurrection" to exactly what Trump can be claimed to have done, and nothing else, because otherwise the lowered burden of proof would sweep up a large fraction of the Democratic party after years of BLM/Antifa riots and Democratic endorsed 'autonomous zones'.
It's all absurdly transparent, there's nothing the least bit subtle about what is going on here, which is why it isn't costing Trump very much support among Republicans.
'But “attempted to overturn an election” isn’t the definition of insurrection.'
The question is how you can contine to support someone who did what he did while still claiming to be patriotic, democratic and non-authoritarian.
'because otherwise the lowered burden of proof would sweep up a large fraction of the Democratic party after years of BLM/Antifa riots and Democratic endorsed ‘autonomous zones’.'
Only in the sense that Trump's criminality somehow implied Biden's criminality. It's less a legal or even an ethical principle so much as a belief in some natural balancing of the scales of the universe whereby conseuqences for Trump's actions demand that there be actions by Democrats that meet the same consequences.
"The question is how you can contine to support someone who did what he did while still claiming to be patriotic, democratic and non-authoritarian."
I've already answered that, but once more: He was attempting to 'overturn' the election by proving it had been stolen.
Now, he was being highly unrealistic in thinking he'd be able to prove that, or even make it matter if he DID prove it, and he kept it up long past any reasonable point to stop, but that IS what he was doing.
Is Trump my idea of an ideal President? Hardly. I was supporting Rand Paul back in 2016! OTOH, is he virtually certain to be better than anybody the Democratic party could plausibly puke up? Yup.
So, if he's the nominee, (He'll get there without my vote in the primaries.) I'll throw up a little in the back of my throat, and cast my vote in the general election for him.
Because, at least, he won't be doing everything in his power to destroy the nation I grew up in and replace it with some woke green nightmare.
Given the trajectory of the culture war, I guess that pining for illusory good old days is about all that delusional, bigoted, superstitious, antisocial, right-wing conspiracy theorists living in obsolete, desolate, can't-keep-up backwaters have left to provide solace to them as they await taking their stale, ugly conservative thinking to the grave, knowing they will be replaced in our electorate and society by younger, more diverse, better, less rural, less bigoted Americans.
Since there was no evidence the election was stolen, the following actions by Trump not only do not constitute “attempting to prove it had been stolen,” but were attempts by him to steal the election:
1) Creating a plan for Fake Electors
2) Urging the DOJ to declare there was fraud
3) Pressuring state officials not to certify
4) Pressuring Pence not to certify
5) Bringing a mob to DC to pressure Congress not to certify
6) Sitting back and doing nothing when the mob rioted
1) The "Fake elector scheme" is something required in case the court hearing goes Trump way. It's been done in the past.
2) Asking DOJ to investigate is not illegal.
3) No request for states to not certify.
4) Pursuing a legal strategy is not illegal.
5) He did not bring a mob. The get together was planned before Trump did anything.
6) He could have easily offered to bail OUT the rioters. You know, like Democrats did.
The problem is not that you're lying. You're just so myopically uneducated as to be laughable.
Who was it that left mateiriel for the Taliban?
It wasn't Trump.
1) There was no evidence to support a court hearing going the other way.
2) Asking the DOJ to declare there is fraud, when as Barr said it’s bullshit, may well be illegal (*).
3) There was pressure to not certify in Michigan, Georgia, Pennsylvania and Arizona.
4) Pursuing a strategy to steal an election may well be illegal (*)
5) Trump asked for the mob in a Dec 19 tweet.
6) Not bailing them out does not absolve him for doing nothing while the riot occurred.
(*) Even if these actions are legal, they nonetheless are attempts to steal an election that ought to disqualify Trump.
1: As long as it's contested, there is nothing unreasonable for Trump preparing for a win. It's certainly not a crime to be hopelessly optimistic, and even if it was a lost cause, the only change is that they are just never going to be used.
2: There's also no crime in believing a crime has been committed.
3: If you believe that a crime has been committed, then why would you not urge people to stop that crime?
4: You assume your conclusion. Stealing an election is illegal. Everything Trump did was explicitly to be to STOP an election from being stolen. To reverse this, you need to first prove that he was lying.
5: Trump asked for a protest.
6: What could he possibly have done? Dr King himself couldn't quell the I am a Man riot when he was phyiscally in the middle. What could Trump have done in a matter of mere hours?
In short, you are attempting to criminalize being wrong, retroactively criminalize it based on judgements that weren't available until later, and even criminalize challenging it at all.
'He was attempting to ‘overturn’ the election by proving it had been stolen.'
He claimed it was stoeln without any proof - ergo he was lying.
'OTOH, is he virtually certain to be better than anybody the Democratic party could plausibly puke up?'
Especially if you WANT somoene willing to overturn elections he loses and promising an authoritarian takeover of the government.
'and replace it with some woke green nightmare.'
And of you have to overturn an election and stage an authoritarian takeover of the government to deny the democratic wishes of the people, so be it.
No. It isn’t up to you to make this call. He believed the election was stolen. And you have ZERO proof that he knew otherwise. As long as he believed that and he followed LEGAL channels to change that, it doesn’t matter that you THINK he lied.
He has zero proof the election was stolen. We know this, because at no point was any evidence the election was stolen presented anywhere, therefore, we know he lies when he claims the election was stolen.
Wrong, again. There was plenty of evidence of wrongdoing all across the country with that vote. The fact that you purposely ignore it doesn't mean your case is solid.
Again - you don't get to make that call.
CHOP etc. was not endorsed by large swaths of the Democratic establishment. This is the silly shit you need to assume to defend Trump.
The hell it wasn't -- Charlie Baker called out the National Guard after the Rape of Newbury Street, but none of the Dem Governors did.
The DC Mayor painted BLM in a DC street in front of the White House. That's support...
CHOP wouldn't have stood up to MRAPs although Trump would have loaned them a couple of M1 tanks if it came to that...
Why would Democratic governors call out the National Guard in response to a horrific rape in another state?
even if we ignore that ‘overturning’ an election by proving fraud is actually a normal legal thing.</i.
WTF are you talking about?
Nobody claims Trump was not entitled to try to prove fraud. It's what he did after that fell flat that is the issue here.
What is the chance these conservative dead-enders read the decisions precipitated by the courtroom campaigns of Trump Election Litigation: Elite Strike Force . . . or the chance that if they read them they comprehended them?
Absolute bollocks.
Does any two-bit operation to "overthrow the govt" count? Can I show up at the capital gates and rush the guards screaming "
Death to Congress!" and that counts?
There was no conceivable way that what happened on Jan 6th to somehow result in the overturning of the election by force. So what is the difference between Jan 6th and my scenario?
Scale? If that's the case, then consider that, with tens of thousands of hours of footage now being released, it's becoming increasingly clear that the violence on that day was an extreme outlier. I'm sure you won't be shocked to hear that there have been alot of lies told about Jan 6th.
It has been reported that the public will receive access to edited footage. Edited to protect the guilty. By a disingenuous group of obsolete, dysfunctional, deplorable jackasses.
"There was no conceivable way that what happened on Jan 6th to somehow result in the overturning of the election by force."
As I've pointed out repeatedly, not only could the break in at the Capitol never have resulted in the election being overturned, it very predictably put an end to Trump contesting the election, rendering that effort politically radioactive.
That result was so predictable, that the break in would actually make more sense as a Reichstag fire by his opponents, than a plot by Trump!
But regardless, the judge will be aware that nothing Trump did legally qualified as 'incitement', so it doesn't really matter if you're stupid enough to think he incited the break in. And was not the judge ruling in a court, and thus bound by the legal standards for 'incitement', not figurative standards?
I'd ask why Bowman is not up for insurrection.
He sought to disrupt a vote to keep the government funded by illegally pulling a fire alarm. He did more to directly stop a necessary act of government than Trump did.
Dem insurrectionist. Dem DOJ.
This claim is so fundamentally flimsy and dishonest that not even the bonkers Republicans in the House were willing to bite.
It’s a legit comparison. You just don’t like that it puts your side in the same spot.
Even if it were true (it’s not), are you seriously suggesting that one guy acting alone pulling a fire alarm is an insurrection?
If you can’t see how pathetically laughable that is, it’s because you don’t like the spot your side is in.
He single-handedly tried to shut the government down by violating the law to intentionally cancel a vote on key legislation.
Unlike Trump, HE specifically did it.
Say it, say "insurrection."
"But “attempted to overturn an election” isn’t the definition of insurrection."
Oh, hello strawman!
Brett continues his impressive streak of deliberately distorting arguments and ignoring facts he's been corrected on almost every week for the past 2 years.
Let me explain:
It isn't that attempting to overturn an election can't fall within the definition of insurrection, depending on how you go about it. And I can easily agree that some members of the Proud Boys could be legally guilty of the crime of insurrection.
Indeed, if you could prove that Trump actually directed them to commit that break in, with the goal of violently coercing Congress into certifying him the winner, you could convict Trump of insurrection, too, and disqualify him.
My point, rather, is that insurrection isn't limited to attempting to violently overturn an election. Plenty of other acts qualify as insurrection. You know, like declaring part of the US an autonomous zone, no longer governed by US law, and attempting to violently enforce this claim?
My point in saying that "attempting to overturn an election isn't the definition of insurrection" is that there have been multiple very clear cases of insurrection in the last few years, not JUST January 6th, and if you lower the standard of guilt enough to sweep up Trump, you sweep up dozens of Democratic office holders, too.
Which is why Democrats want "insurrection" artificially narrowed to just things they can argue Trump guilty of, and nothing else.
Wild to see you now argue the definition of insurrection being used is too narrow.
Really quite a menu of arguments in play.
‘My point in saying that “attempting to overturn an election isn’t the definition of insurrection”’
Is just you weaseling yourself out of any pretence at patriotic, democratic, anti-authoritarian principles.
Garfield assassination?
As people are so ignorant of history, I need to explicitly state what I presumed all would simply realize — the man who shot him explicitly stated that his intent was to overturn the election.
And it did — Garfield was dead -- "[Chester] Arthur is President now!"
Arthur becoming President when Garfield died is how the Constitution operates. The Constitution does not say that the President must never die in office. Murdering both President and Vice-President at the same time before there was any provision for further presidential succession might cause an issue.
A lengthy hostage crisis in the Capitol would prevent the operation of a swath of constitutional provisions, regardless of how small the chance that it could keep Trump in office.
Dr. Ed 2, who is nearly always wrong, asserting that other people are ignorant of history is the chef's kiss.
Three bombings of the Capitol, not just one: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-capitol-attack-history-1.5863856
I know that Ilya is an immigrant and hence doesn’t know our history
I know you are both dumb and have mental issues, but between your demonstrated knowledge of things that haven't happened, and the existence of a citizenship test, this is both wrong and bigoted.
Bigoted? I didn't even mention that it was Puerto Rician Nationalists who shot the Congressmen (and later killed a cop in an attempt to assassinate then-President Truman).
Immigrants know US history. Ed knows a lot of things that aren’t quite true about US history.
Yes. Bigoted.
Nobody's talking about Puerto Rico nationalists. The point is that saying Ilya doesn't know history because he's an immigrant is the statement of a stupid, ignorant, and bigoted individual.
I'd wager a substantial sum that Ilya would easily outscore you on an American history test.
Dr. Ed 2 contributes answers to the quiz show Common Knowledge.
Donald Trump poses the biggest danger to the world in 2024
In a world where Xi is the absolute dictator of a nuclear armed genocidal totalitarian state with active territorial ambitions against it's neighbors, Trump is the biggest danger to the world.
Why?
Because Trump is proposing to do something about the growing threat of radical extremists, ironically. “We pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists and the radical-left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country that lie and steal and cheat on elections.”
And that's a bigger threat to the whole world than an aging dictator who runs a nuclear armed totalitarian state and is picking fights with his neighbors...
Unironically, yes. There's already one aging dictator who runs a nuclear armed totalitarian state and is picking fights with his neighbors, the world can't face another.
And yet, he was president for 4 years, and didn't start a single war...
He ramped up drone strikes while removing reporting and accountability, stabbed the Kurds in the back, dropped a MOAB just because he could, antagonised allies in NATO and engaged in weird rhetoric about North Korea.
Nige, there are TWO dictators of totalitarian states with nukes (China has them too) and both countries are in SERIOUS economic trouble. Putin has lost something like 300,000 young men in his war, and young men are the most productive members of a resource-based economy (which is essentially what Russia has). And China is a scary mess with our 2008 housing mess on steroids.
We NEED a BS artist like Trump as President in a world like this.
And as to the Russian nukes -- Clinton could have simply bought them and didn't....
'We NEED a BS artist like Trump as President in a world like this.'
YOU need BS artists. The rest of us need people who are honest and competent.
Brett, you are radical and extreme; you admit it.
Trump isn't promising to go after the extremists, but the people you don't like.
Don't pretend it's anything other than that.
No, he's going after the extremists. Just as Biden did with him military purge in 2021.
Again, we warned you that you would not love the rules you are proposing.
We warned that he would do the things he's proposing he'll do while you called it TDS, now you're nodding as if you knew it all along. Which you probably did.
“We pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists and the radical-left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country that lie and steal and cheat on elections.”
Whether they exist or not. And Trump complaining about anyone else lying is beyond belief.
And what does "root out" mean, exactly? Maybe put them in those concentration camps with illeal immigrants, real or suspected?
It's full-blown fascism. Trump wants to bring the Fuhrerprinzip to the US.
Good Lord -- and people call *me* paranoid.
Do you honestly think that the entire Democratic party is going to simply evaporate in March of 2025? Implode over the next decade, yes, but not simply evaporate. There are 179 Federal Judges and more on Senior Status -- they are all simply going to go along with this? Or do you think that Trump would get away with tossing a couple hundred judges -- many elderly, some in poor health -- in jail?
What do you think would happen when the first one died there? (The trauma of incarceration, heart attacks would not be unexpected.)
HINT: While Roger Taney wrote in his diary that he expected Lincoln to have him arrested -- Lincoln didn't. As Taney died a year or so later, and wasn't in the best of health, my guess is that Lincoln was thinking along these lines....
And then we have our media. And all of academia.
There is no way that Trump could ever pull something like this off.
Now 30 years from now, if we continue to sacrifice the rule of law toward political ends, it well might be possible. But not now....
"It’s full-blown fascism. Trump wants to bring the Fuhrerprinzip to the US."
Yes, Trump is terrible. You're engaging in paranoid hallucinations with that comment.
Just be content that the Orange Clown is going to end up in prison
...or the White House.
Don,
Are you familiar with what Trump says he plans to do?
How exactly is he going to round up all the illegal immigrants? How is he going to "root out" all the people he says he's going to root? And on what basis is he going to that?
Note that thuggish behavior, whether by RW'ers or leftists, or people who don't give a shit about politics is already illegal. What is he going to add?
There are certainly peaceful individual in the country who are Marxists, and plenty of others Trump and other RW'ers (including some who comment here) would label as communists for things like supporting universal healthcare, or higher taxes.
Should they be rooted out?
Weird seeing Nazi references from an advocate of the side that seems very in-line with Nazis.
'The Jews will not replace us,' some guys said.
Have you seen the commentary from the "Pro-Palestine" side?
We were talking about the Nazis and their belief that the Jews are behind the Great Replacement and how in-line that belief is with pro-killing-Palestinian-civilians commenters here.
In line with Nazis? Fuck you.
Is Robert Bowers a leftist? John Earnest?
Rashida Tlaib is. Own it.
I get that you don't like that you're on the side with Nazis. It probably is not fun. I'll note the lack of condemnation of the "pro-Palestinian" protesters, many of whom are openly and aggressively anti-Jew. Conservatives have never had a problem calling neo-Nazis idiots (Fox News also managed to avoid interviewing Richard Spencer on-air. Can CNN say the same?)
You're also on the same side as the TikTok yokels who think OBL is nifty.
Perhaps that should concern you, but it's not my issue. It is a you issue.
'many of whom are openly and aggressively anti-Jew.'
Many of whom are openly, though perhaps not aggressively, Jews.
According to many on the left there is a "but Trump" exception to our laws. What may be legal for any other POTUS is illegal when Trump does it. Even constitutional rights that everyone else has are forbidden Donald Trump.
What terrifies me is the precedent this is setting.
They expect that these new rules will never be used against them or theirs. In fact I expect that should these new rules ever be used against them or theirs they will claim that circumstances changed and the new rules no longer apply
Should Brandon be disqualifierd for aiding and abetting the Taliban?
No, we think facts matter and right wing wankery is t true while the facts of the Trump indictments are backed up with sources.
These indictments rely on creative interpretations of the law.
Even Michael Tracey and Glenn Greenwald pointed this out.
Even Michael Tracey and Glenn Greenwald
LOL.
When liberals are having pause...
Get back to us. When those two are agreeing with Republicans about how awful liberals are, it's a day ending in a Y.
He is the "alpha victim".
If Jan 6 was an insurrection, what were those autonomous zones in Seattle and other cities attacked by BLM and Antifa?
Large protests? The big difference being they never tried to overthrow any levels of government.
I can understand people not liking Trump, I don’t like him either. But so afraid of him, as if he was going to become a dictator?
He literally tried to overturn and/or ignore the result of the election.
Look at how many times he accepted being blocked on his damn wall and kept coming back with some new trick? That’s not the action of a lawbreaker.
That's the action of someone who wants to ignore the law but is still in charge of a system where everyone else insists on obeying it.
Compare that to Biden and his student loan forgiveness crap that he admitted was unconstitutional and went ahead with anyway.
He wanted congressional approval for the original program, but I don't think he believed it was necessary.
And when the court said no he did a different program for which the authority was far less ambiguous.
Kinda like Trump's emergency declaration for the wall but a far less egregious violation of the separation of powers.
Actually the autonomous zones declared that they were no longer part of the USA. The very definition of insurrection
If they were being serious (debatable, but possible) I could certainly the argument for disqualifying them. But I'm not aware of any running for public office in the US.
Then again, I'm not aware that Trump broke into the Capitol, so why were we holding this conversation again? Oh, yeah, something about incitement, and aiding and abetting...
There was the conspiracy and fraud and relentless lying.
Your very first words were that
"Large protests? The big difference being they never tried to overthrow any levels of government."
So you were completely wrong on that point.
Furthermore many Democratic politicians ( such as the Seattle mayor) supported groups like CHAZ/CHOP so shouldn't they be disqualified from elective office? And if your excuse is that they were not actual participants in CHAZ/CHOP then shouldn't that standard apply to Trump who wasn't one of the J6 protesters?
Did CHAZ CHOP or whatever try to instal some of these supposed supporters as King or Emperor or whatever?
Yeah, I never actually heard anything about them claiming to not be part of the US. The "autonomous zone" was a protest against the police, I don't see how it gets framed as an insurrection. They were protesting actions of the current government, they never tried to actually install their own government.
And the support from politicians had more to do with the "defund the police" movement. The Seattle mayor you claim supported the protests was the subject of major protests over the excessive police response to the protests.
They declared that the current legal authorities had no authority in the zones. I repeat they said that the legally constituted authorities had no authority in the Chaz. By definition denying that the legal authorities have no authority is insurrection. They literally took over a police station in the Seattle Chaz after forcing the police to abandon the station by means of violence. Again perfect definition of insurrection.
They also murdered people in CHAZ and suffered zero repurcussions. So the Democrats there clearly agreed.
Okay, you've convinced me! If any of those people have ever sworn an oath to support the Constitution, they should also be disqualified from holding government office. Fair is fair.
Actually the autonomous zones declared that they were no longer part of the USA.
I don't think this is true actually. They declared that they were outside the jurisdiction of the local police.
Rejecting the authority of the police is probably not insurrection against the US. It might be insurrection against the state.
Imagine that, opposing the power of the state, as represented by bloated, militairsed, largely unaccountible police forces. Just so *weird* 2nd amendment types and libertarians supported the bloated militarised largely unaccountable violent arm of the state.
Just like the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton).
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
– Michael Tracey
'issued a statement'
Lol.
‘with the implication for what should be done with that “briefing” information too obvious to need stating outright.’
Lol.
It is pretty fucking obvious what John Podesta meant.
Hahahaha
He did not try to overturn an election ILLEGALLY. I’ll repeat for the dense in the back - ILLEGALLY.
At least if you go by the old rules.
Using creative interpretations of the law, a prosecutor could get the Cunt®™, John Podesta, Adam Schiff, and Robert Mueller indicted!
Who needs to intepret the law at all, just install Trump loyalists and they'll obey his every vengeful whim. That is the plan.
Then every Democrat that allowed and supported the attack on the Senate during Brett Kavanaugh hearing. The entire “squad” who helped, supported the takeover of the house “in support of Palestine” and Bowman are therefore disqualified from office as they really did engage in Insurrection.
Judge Sarah Wallace, when considering the "officer of the United States" question, shifted from detailed and comprehensive factual analysis to sophistry that would make Bill Clinton (It depends on what the definition of "is" is) blush.
Yes, but you seem to have internalized a right wing falsehood (though the media, almost from top to bottom, was anti Clinton and willing to perpetuate any twisted view of his behavior).
I read the decision, why don't you quote some sophistry?
Sure there is some parts I disagree with, like quoting a professor who said Extreme Right Wingers use "coded" language so no need to point to anything specific that Trump said, just say well it was coded. But that's just bias against conservatives, not sophistry.
How about the part where the judge declared the January 6th committee bipartisan, though the Democrats picked all the members? Because the Republicans could have picked members, too, if they'd agreed to only pick members who passionately hated Trump.
But the committee, whose findings where the chief basis for the claim of insurrection, wasn't biased, oh, no, despite the fact that even the judge had to admit that every single member had an established record of hating Trump. And that this didn't happen organically, but instead was deliberately engineered by violating over 200 year old Congressional practice.
Or the part where the judge, like Somin above, pretended that "fight like hell" wasn't standard political rhetoric.
Somin says, "In a detailed and compelling analysis"; Detailed? Sure. Compelling? That's just confirmation bias talking. The judges' analysis would have persuaded nobody who didn't start out agreeing with it.
"Because the Republicans could have picked members, too, if they’d agreed to only pick members who passionately hated Trump."
Another distortion of the truth, which Brett knows to be a falsehood, and yet continues to mindlessly repeat.
Remember Brett, at the end of the day, you are choosing to be a liar.
WRONG.
The rule was that the Minority Leader gets to pick the minority members on committees, and Pelosi wouldn't let him do it.
This is a TERRIBLE precedent that is going to come back to bite the Dems. For example, if there is a Biden Impeachment committee (more for the airing of dirty laundry than anything else, the Dems won't get to pick members to be on it.
Pelosi was to appoint all members, five of them after consultation with the Minority Leader. She rejected Jordan and Banks for their ties to Trump, and McCarthy yanked the other three nominations. Ken Buck's request to be on the committee was refused by McCarthy, from his testimony reported in the opinion. Of course, McConnell had already blocked an independent commission. Both men made terrible miscalculations that they could discredit the committee's work by not cooperating.
If Democrats were to nominate members to investigate who were witnesses and participated in the acts being investigated, they should be rejected. But Democrats don't have anyone equivalent to a Jim Jordan, so it's not on my list of concerns.
Traditionally the minority members of any committee are appointed by the minority leader. A tradition not violated in over 200 years of the House.
Jim Jordan doesn’t get to investigate himself.
No, that's not what H. Res. 503, which created the committee, says.
H. Res. 36 which created the Benghazi select committee has similar text, although it specifically appoints the chair and ranking member of various committees, but then has:
So this does not appear to be an unusual formulation.
As a matter of tradition the minority leader appoints the minority members of any committee. A tradition that goes back 200 years. Pelosi violated this tradition.
Unless of course the committee assignment is unacceptable to the House, as when the Republicans fill the House with insurrection supporters. E.g., Marjorie Taylor Greene was stripped of committee assignments in 2021 in response to her incendiary comments and advocacy of violence against Democrats. Kevin McCarthy wanted her to retain those committee assignments and refused to take any disciplinary action within his caucus.
200 years? Gosh, were H. Res. 503 and 36 really that old?
Ed you are in fact wrong. The rule is the opposite of what you say; the minority gets no formal say.
Pelosi reached out and the GOP played stupid games.
Pelosi rejected the nominations of Jim Jordan and Jim Banks to the committee. That is an established fact. An act that had not been done in over 200 years of House procedure.
Yes people who helped being about Jan 06 don’t get to be put in the committee investigating it.
Shameful the GOP put them forwards at all.
Neither Jordan nor Banks were charged with anything involving January 6. The most that they say is he supported Trump. If you can name a crime Jordan committed do so.
Jim Jordan ignored a subpoena to testify from the January 6th committee, the same thing that Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro were convicted for. That he couldn't be indicted because of the Speech and Debate Clause doesn't mean he didn't commit the same crime as those two, contempt of Congress.
Nothing prevents his indictment for ignoring the lawful subpoena of the Jan. 6th committee.
To the extent that he may have been questioned about alleged Speech or Debate: He was being questioned by a Congressional committee of the House of Representatives, which quite literally satisfies the "shall not be questioned in any other Place" clause.
His legal options were to quash it, move to have it limited in scope, or to comply. He chose to ignore it.
But prosecution by the Department of Justice would necessarily question him about what he did in Congress in another place, wouldn't it? The House Ethics Committee could proceed against him, but they generally don't do much.
What an outright liar you are. Jim Jordan did NOT help “bring about Jan 6”. How do you live with yourself with the constant bullshit you spew?
Jim Jordan repeatedly pushed false stolen election rhetoric in lead up to January 6
What to know about Jim Jordan's role in Jan. 6
Jordan was referred to the Ethics Committee; Democrats who called him an insurrectionist ... were not.
"false". And again, you give the game away. The term "false" is a subjective opinion. It is not set in stone and it's not unassailable. Jim Jordan had an opinion. The Dem run house tried to crucify him for it.
So a big fat no on all of those points.
You don't seem to get it. If the minority pick their own committee members, the minority pick their own committee members.
PERIOD.
No, "We, the majority, will pick the minority's members instead, because we really dislike the minority's choices." We don't CARE what your excuses were for rigging the committee this way, they don't matter. You always think what you want to do is really important.
They were just two members, and members of the committee minority. What the hell were they going to do that you were afraid of, smuggle in a bomb? No, they were just going to ask embarrassing questions, and leak any exculpatory evidence the committee wanted to bury.
THAT is the possibility that was so horrifying that Pelosi had to violate over 200 years of precedent and pick the minority's members, make sure every last member of the committee was somebody who hated Trump's guts.
You don't seem to get it, because you keep shoving your head up your ass whenever someone proves you wrong.
Read this and be quiet:
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/11/18/colorado-court-rules-trump-engaged-in-insurrection-but-cannot-be-disqualified-under-section-three/?comments=true#comment-10325036
I'll quote the super-duper important part you'll pretend you didn't see:
"(a) APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS .—The Speaker shall appoint 13 Members to the Select Committee, 5 of whom shall be appointed after consultation with the minority leader."
Eight members were appointed, and "consultation" with the minority leader apparently occurred. And then five more members were appointed. That seems indisputable?
‘We don’t CARE what your excuses were for rigging the committee this way, they don’t matter.’
WE WANTED TO RIG THE COMMITTEE BUT THEY WOULDN’T LET US
Remember Brett, at the end of the day, you are choosing to be a liar.
Yes. He is.
It's usually a poor idea to hire people who desperately don't want something done to do it.
It’s not a lie. Thats EXACTLY how they picked the members.
The damage of this decision will be long lasting.
The fact that Josh Blackman’s weird construction of the 14A has actually been adopted means that we will be subjected to even more egotistical behavior.
[Deleted]
I fully expect to see this decision next year in Today in Supreme Court History (even if it gets gutted on appeal).
"we will be subjected to even more egotistical behavior.
A prediction that is likely to be correct
So no kicking Brandon off the ballot for aiding and abetting the Taliban?
No one aided and abetted the Taliban other than Democrats.
As I observed on the Blackman comment thread, if and when SCOTUS reviews the forthcoming decision of the Supreme Court of Colorado regarding Donald Trump’s eligibility to serve as president, should Justices Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Bear It recuse themselves?
Each was a Circuit Court judge prior to Trump appointing him/her to SCOTUS. In 2023, the difference in the annual salary of an Associate Justice and that of a Circuit Judge is almost $40,000. The lifetime SCOTUS appointments are accordingly worth millions of dollars if the Trump Three serve a normal Supreme Court tenure in office.
Might these justices’ impartiality reasonably be questioned? 28 U.S.C. § 455(a).
"Might these justices’ impartiality reasonably be questioned?"
Maybe. But not because of what you suggested. That has never been a thing.
The fact that a litigant has put millions of dollars worth of biscuits on these jurists' breakfast tables is not a thing?
When Prick Nixon's presidency was on the line, one justice whom he had appointed recused, while three did not. Those three ruled against Nixon's position, so I surmise that they were unbiased. But, , to perform its high function in the best way, "justice must satisfy the appearance of justice." In re Murchison, 349 U.S. 133, 136 (1955), quoting Offutt v. United States, 348 U.S. 11, 14 (1954).
I love your logic -- facts of the case be damned, you're only unbiased if you rule against him....
That the other five Justices all agreed with the three Nixon appointees who did not recuse could be evidence that reaching that same decision was unbiased; the three justices could not have changed the decision, and it had significance beyond Nixon's circumstances in limiting executive privilege.
But I would not agree with not guilty generally, as another form of bias would be that a Justice, who might appear biased to some, could be more inclined to rule against the party they might appear to be biased in favor of, if the question is a close one, to guard their reputation for being unbiased.
The recusal could also have been a way to not have to rule against Nixon -- who may have been a personal friend.
Rehnquist recused because he had been an Assistant Attorney General in Nixon's administration. He was the most conservative of Nixon's appointees, and the one who got the most opposing votes in the Senate. He may have chosen to recuse to avoid supporting the decision or being the lone dissenter; but it is unlikely they were personal friends, given the number of times Nixon got his name wrong on the White House tapes.
Well why don't you write to the Supreme Court and ask them to put it in their new ethics code.
Is that the proposed standard for all federal judges? Better add US Attorneys to the list too. If I had to choose between having a judge or Prosecutor on my side, I would probably pick the prosecutor, as Hunter could probably tell you.
Uh, 28 U.S.C. § 455(a), which explicitly includes "[a]ny justice," long predates the Supreme Court's recent window dressing.
Ridiculous.
A judge goes through dozens of pages of analysis of what the Constitution says and why it is inconsistent with disqualifying Trump from the presidency.
Ilya"s analysis refuting that is basically 'It can't possibly mean what it says.'
He even mistates the judges grounds for the conclusion that the President is not covered by section 3. The judge nowhere States "The presumption that the presidency is excluded unless specifically listed is the exact opposite of the on(sic) Judge Wallace should have made."
The judge actually lays out the evidence that should override any presumption that the President is covered under section 3.
I'd actually like to hear Ilya refute the judges argument in detail point by point, especially over the clear text about violating an oath "to support the Constitution".
But forgive me for presuming if he had actual counterpoints he would have included them.
The plain reading of the 14A would include the President as those who are barred from office. It takes legal gymnastics to reach a different conclusion.
For a much better analysis see https://balkin.blogspot.com/2023/11/researching-whether-persons-responsible.html
The only way to get to that conclusion is to ignore how the word “officer” was used at the time of the passage of the 14A and nitpick the Constitution in a way that it was never meant to be read.
Like I said, refute what the judge actually said, don't point me to a different opinion making different points.
The judge said that "officers of the United States" did not include the President of the United States. The linked commentary refutes that argument. Would you be happier if a massive blockquote of the linked commentary were included?
Where does the linked opinion piece actually do that? It starts with an assertion that its conclusion is obvious, claims to have found practically endless quotes to explicitly support that, and then gives a great number of quotes that do not mention the presidency. I expected it to lead with its strongest evidence, but perhaps it got better later?
It has quotations from the people who drafted and debated the amendment, where they clearly described the President as an officer. For example:
I favor having Trump on the ballot, including the general election if the Republicans nominate him. If the nation would elect this man, he will destroy the nation; he is bent on payback where in his first term he was bent only on self aggrandizement and grifting, and did not start with the sort of appointees who will implement that destruction -- no Session or even Barr, no Tillerson, no firing of the likes of Flynn. If the country votes for that, they should get it; in this respect the Constitution is a suicide pact. A country that would vote for Trump is doomed, and disqualifying Trump isn't going to fix that.
Here is actually what the judge said:
"Here, after considering the arguments on both sides, the Court is persuaded that “officers of the United States” did not include the President of the United States. While the Court agrees that there are persuasive arguments on both sides, the Court holds that the absence of the President from the list of positions to which the Amendment applies combined with the fact that Section Three specifies that the
disqualifying oath is one to “support” the Constitution whereas the Presidential oath is to “preserve, protect and defend” the Constitution, it appears to the Court that for whatever reason the drafters of Section Three did not intend to include a person who
had only taken the Presidential Oath. 20"
The footnote is interesting too:
"20 Whether this omission was intentional, or an oversight is not for this Court to decide. It may very well have been an oversight because to the Court’s knowledge Trump is the first President of the United States who had not previously taken an [Article 6] oath of office."
Molly, take a realistic look at the times and the political landscape in which the 14th Amendment was written.
Do you HONESTLY think that ANYONE thought that Jefferson Davis had any chance of winning the Presidency in 1872. For those historically ignorant, it was General Grant who got elected (much as Eisenhower was after WWII), re-elected in 1876, and declined to run in 1880.
Senators, yes, they could see a Rebel state electing a Rebel Senator (although the CSA disqualification was fairly rapidly eliminated) but the Rebels electing a *PRESIDENT*?!? They didn't dream of that for a variety of reasons including the overwhelming Republican majority in the country. And it took Teddy Roosevelt running against Taft to get Woodrow Wilson (a racist Southerner) elected with the consequences of that.
But Molly, they didn't disqualify Chester Arthur.
And while Arthur wasn't involved in the Garfield assassination (that made him President) -- the perp literally was an escaped mental patient -- there's more evidence to blame Arthur for that than to blame Trump for this.
After all, the Jan 6 folks said they did it for Trump, and the perp who shot Garfield explicitly stated that he did it to make Arthur President. What is the difference?
Heck, should Jody Foster be responsible for Hinkley having shot Reagan? Or do we simply conclude that Hinkley was nuts?
If Jody Foster had controlled adequate police response and had an obligation to respond to that situation and had sat around doing nothing except enjoying the spectacle, yes, I would blame her.
Trump was involved in the events of January 6th.
"The plain reading of the 14A "
You mean "My reading of..." which is fine, but you were not the judge.
How is the commander in chief of the armed forces (Article II, § 2, Clause 1 — a provision that Judge Wallace remarkably did not discuss) not an officer of the United States?
I suspect that this jurist simply didn’t have the fortitude to disqualify Trump, and accordingly teed up her decision to be reversed on appeal. A punt Ray Guy would envy,
But its not just any officer is it?
Its an officer that "has taken an official oath to support the Constitution of the United States." The Article 6 oath which Trump has never taken.
Nor is the Presidency among the offices specifically listed. Why would the specifically list presidential electors and Congress and not list the President or VP if they were intended into be barred?
If you can't swing a Colorado Judge that is using the Jan. 6th hearings for "facts" then you aren't going to swing federal courts.
And to even have any hope of prevailing you are going to have to address the specific points the judge made rather than just hand waving.
Is your vehicle also a Dodge? How is the commander in chief of the armed forces not an officer of the United States?
I suspect that Judge Wallace's glaring refusal to discuss Article II, § 2, Clause 1 was strategic.
"suspect that Judge Wallace’s glaring refusal "
and that you ascribe to "lack of balls."
Plausible.
Article II, Section 1, Clause 8:
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:–I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
I suupose one could argue that it lacks the word "support"...
Article VI states: "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution[.]"
No, Article II, § 1 doesn't include the word "support," but that is a distinction without a difference. The two oaths are functionally equivalent and prescribe the same duties.
Ooh, Kazinski found the sophistry!
Wait, Article VI says
So are the ones who are only bound by Affirmation off the hook? Or do we understand that "taken an official oath" includes Affirmation?
Kaz, a lot of commenters here have given you reasons why Judge Wallace's opinion is wrong, in their opinion. Now a conspirator has also. Just saying that "a judge goes through dozens of pages of analysis" isn't much of answer to arguments that the judge's opinion is wrong. In your characterization of Prof. Somin's argument, "basically" is doing a lot of work. I didn't read his post as saying that at all.
But you've got a court decision on your side. Currently you are up 1-0. But it's still early innings, I think.
Nobody directly addresses he juudges' points the only thing any of them say, including Ilya, is 'it can't possibly mean that'
I’m really having trouble believing how unethical Ilya is. He quotes selectively Trump’s statements which he claims are a call to violence and insurrection:
“Trump called for strength and action on January 6, 2021, posturing the rightful certification of President Biden’s electoral victory as “the most corrupt election in the history, maybe of the world” and as a “matter of national security,” telling his supporters that they were allowed to go by “very different rules”(1) and that if they didn’t “fight like hell, [they’re] not going to have a country anymore.” (2)
Here are fuller context of the two quotes
1 “And fraud breaks up everything, doesn’t it? When you catch somebody in a fraud, you’re allowed to go by very different rules.
So I hope Mike has the courage to do what he has to do. And I hope he doesn’t listen to the RINOs and the stupid people that he’s listening to.”
And
(2) “And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.
Our exciting adventures and boldest endeavors have not yet begun. My fellow Americans, for our movement, for our children, and for our beloved country.
And I say this despite all that’s happened. The best is yet to come.
So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. I love Pennsylvania Avenue. And we’re going to the Capitol, and we’re going to try and give.
The Democrats are hopeless — they never vote for anything. Not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones because the strong ones don’t need any of our help. We’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.
So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.”
1) is clearly talking about Pence following the cockamamie 12th amendment theory, not about different rules for violence.
2) is standard political rhetoric which clearly is telling them to exhort Republican Congressmen to support Trump on the votes.
It also ignores Trump saying very clearly near the beginning: “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”
How is it "unethical" for an advocate to cite facts which support one's position, while omitting (or minimizing) facts which arguably do not? That's first semester law school stuff. (So long as the advocate does not misrepresent the record.)
Judge Wallace did an admirable job of putting Donald Trump's incendiary exhortations in proper context.
Its something I try to avoid because I don't think it helps.my argument, and its intellectually dishonest.
By all means highlight the parts you think makes your point. Of course its a tell for Ilya to use 3 and 4 word snippets, not even entire sentences.
A blatant tell, something that tells me not to credit anything Ilya says without checking the original source for context.
My attitude is simpler: Ilya|/dev/null
At least this time he had 3-4 word snippets; Last time I checked, he was still using that media paraphrase from the Raffensperger call, that only retained ONE word of what Trump had actually said.
You've been on this blog for how long and you don't understand what advocacy is?
Your flouncing 'I can never trust Prof. Somin again' wouldn't play even play if we didn't know your politics.
“And fraud breaks up everything, doesn’t it? When you catch somebody in a fraud, you’re allowed to go by very different rules.
Nobody was caught in a fraud. It existed only (possibly) in Trump's mind. and what are these "different rules?" And who made them?
The essence of this quote is that he is claiming there was fraud, despite having conspicuously failed to prove it multiple times, and that that fantasy allows him to break all existing rules as he pleases. Even if there were fraud, Trump doesn't get to make up new rules. Claiming he can do what he wants and not obey the Constitution sounds sort of insurrectionist to me, not to mention a clear violation of his oath.
So I hope Mike has the courage to do what he has to do. And I hope he doesn’t listen to the RINOs and the stupid people that he’s listening to.”
#1 Except the fraud itself was fraudulent. There's no way he had a good-faith belief in the vast majority (all?) of his fraud claims.
#2 Democrats had the house, I'm actually uncertain what would have happened if he somehow got the GOP to uniformly vote to overturn the election.
Besides, there's other damning stuff like him knowing there were weapons in the crowd but not caring because they weren't there to hurt him.
Overall, it's a fairly standard Trump tactic. He doesn't tell you to break the law, he may not even conceive of the specific law breaking action you're going to take, but if you obey the law and fail he's very unhappy, if you break the law then you did what you could and he's satisfied.
Evidence of this is the fact he was pretty clearly cheering on the insurrectionists from the White House.
Do you have a problem with that?
That was a bad thing because...
Because he knowingly sent a partially armed crowd to the capitol. Not that hard to see they may use those arms.
No, he didn’t. This is a flat out, blatant lie.
He sent a crowed to protest on his behalf.
That is not wrong.
Bah. This is all just so much motivated reasoning, on all sides. This is exactly why elections are needed. The law and the judicial process are utterly incapable of transmogrifying mere opinion into solid, evidence-based fact, were they to write a thousand pages. You can't get there from here.
The political process is the only peaceful alternative.
'The political process is the only peaceful alternative.'
Everyone appalled at Trump's efforts to wreck the political process agrees and wonders why, exactly, he's being afforded another chance to do it.
You think you’ve found a way to save democracy from itself, but it doesn’t work that way.
There is a whole part of the Constitution that says otherwise.
I am curious as to why 'defending democracy' can cover a multitude of acts, not all of them good, yet 'not allowing a man who is actively hostile to democracy and the political process another chance to overthrow democracy' isn't among them.
That all may be true. But the constitution lays out requirements and restrictions for holding offices, and they are in force regardless of the opinions of the electorate.
I'm not saying one way or the other whether Trump is eligible to be President. I'm just pointing out that there are some things that do need to be determined by other means than through an election. Imperfect as our judicial system is, they have the last word on this stuff.
Ultimately the actual reason why he's getting another go at wrecking the political proces is because the Republicans and his supporters want him to and they're strong enough and loud to prevent any opposition.
In fairness to Judge Sarah Wallace, circuit court judges are rarely faced with legal questions where there is no precedent to guide them. Appeals court judges see these types of questions a lot more often, because those are the type of questions that tend to get appealed.
Wallace knew this case was going to be appealed no matter what she wrote about the question of whether the President is an officer of the United States, meaning that judges with more experience with that type of question would address the question de novo. So it makes sense that she didn't put a lot of effort into that part of the opinion.
The judge did put a lot of effort into her opinion. She teed it up for a reversal by the Colorado Supreme Court on the dispositive question. Of course, when it gets before the black robed ward heelers of SCOTUS, all bets are off.
Three of the justices were part of George W. Bush's legal team in 2000. Intellectual honesty is not their strong suit.
My conclusion is that she desperately wanted to say that Trump was an insurrectionist, (That much shown through every word of the opinion.) but didn't want the blame for the political firestorm that would follow declaring him disqualified.
So she split the difference, in the hope that an appeal might keep her finding of insurrection, and over-ride her decision that Trump wasn't subject to Section 3.
It's also possible that she wrote what she believed to be the correct interpretation of the constitution, given that there was no prior decisions on the subject for guidance.
Colorado appeals courts have not fared well before SCOTUS lately: https://www.coloradopolitics.com/courts/scotus-takes-up-true-threats-case-out-of-colorado-the-latest-in-a-series-of/article_f8a01162-9dac-11ed-899a-7f52c61e4990.html
(See https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-threats-counterman-colorado-first-amendment/ for the outcome of Counterman v. Colorado.)
"Intellectual honesty is not their strong suit."
But they may be far more honest than many commenters, maybe ever you.
But why prejudge? Let's see it play out, because that is the only thing that counts.
Having been a member of W's legal team is pretty much conclusive evidence of being a RINO, however.
Half assed opinion by a half assed judge on a subject that refuses to die.
If one takes the somewhat conspiratorial view that the judge was considering the public consequences of her decision, her reasoning makes perfect sense at a meta level. Make a factual finding that is really hard to challenge and that therefore is appeal-resistant, and make a weak legal finding that is easy to challenge and that therefore can readily be overturned on appeal. So Trump goes off the ballot while she can't be blamed and hence threatened, and any uproar is not due to her decision.
I concur.
If she had been in the process of invading a neighboring country, I might even have been tempted to call it "genius".
" It would be utterly ridiculous if Section 3 disqualifies an insurrectionist low-level bureaucrat, but not an insurrectionist who holds the most powerful office in the land. For obvious reasons, the latter is a vastly greater menace than the former."
This pathetic argument again? Low level bureaucrats are not elected. Democracy and the will of the 80ish million people would be voting for him might be a reason to treat them differently.
Ilya Somin (not Shapiro) likes to repeat arguments that have already been refuted.
The low-level bureaucrat, who no one is paying attention to (particularly pre internet) was the intended target.
They didn't want Confederates to become local judges, sheriffs, etc.
And there actually was wisdom in this when you look at what the problems were in the 1960s -- the judges, sheriffs, etc all being friendly to the Klan, which is why the Feds had to go into the South.
Kinda makes one wonder why they specifically mentioned US Senators and Reps, if the intended target was only low-level bureaucrats.
Professor Blackman & Co. have been posting exactly this argument on this blog among other places for quite some time. I think it’s a weak argument myself. But treating it as an out-of-the-blue argument is not a very effective way to refute it.
These arguments are weasely tricks to get one’s side to win aka gain power. Ferenghi-esque if you will, for those who saw the episode where Quark appeared before the Klingon High Command and exposed some Klingon general’s weasel trickery, which was just so dishonerable!
After the Civil War, everyone knew who the insurrectiinists were, even those who were insurrectionists, even people from the South.
I extend a hand, again, to join the anti-weasel side.
This has no such agreement; hence the weasel arguments trying to apply a technical definition that half the nation doesn’t agree with. It is performance art. It is a naked power grab.
Of the type going on in many different initiatives, most preceding Jan. 6-related items.
One attempt to kick him fails, move on to the next, then the next, then the next. All abuses redirecting the government against a political enemy. All with facetious statements that’s not what you’re doing. Except the first impeachment, where politicians, and legal analysists right here, stood there and said, “Yes, it is purely political! And we get the honor of doing that for the unique case of impeachment! Things like the 4th Amendment, and directing the resources of government against a political opponent because he is a political opponent are A-Ok!”
Showing how faithful these people in power are to the concept of equality before the law. And how quickly things would collapse to dictatorship under these same folks without the Constitution girding other abuses.
Someone else posted what a disaster it would be if Trump won. I agree! He’d abandon Ukraine as his first official act, allowing a dictatorial strongman to redefine European boundaries.
Since when is that a value?
That same poster, in that same message, warned of how Trump was already setting up a framework of people to turn the tables and use the power of government against those who used it against him.
Two things. One, you are right to fear this.
Two, I will be there arguing against his abuses, just as I did yours. I enjoyed the cosmic justice of Donald “Lock her up!” Trump being in this situation, even if I argued against the abuses.
I suspect…no, I know “your side” will suddenly see the light of the wrongness of using govement power against your political enemies. We are seeing your fear already, in the same posts doubling down on your attacks on same!
Rats, the extend a hand sentence was intended for the end but the edit window has expired. No matter, I doubt anyone will take the offer, when there’s your side to push over the finish line, for various definitions of "your."
And by the way, during the discussion of joyously using the political process of impeachment against one's political enemies, it was pointed out there was a check on abuse of this power.
The vote.
Now you understand the need to deny the vote, the final check on abuse of this power.
We love democracy. Until we don't.
'We love democracy. Until we don’t.'
You love it so much you want this one man to be completely above all laws and consequences for his actions. Wait, that doesn't sound very democratic.
Yes, Biden should face charges for multiple crimes. Glad you finally see that.
Republicans are certainly trying, they just keep coming up short when actual evidence is required. That's why Trump wants to replace officials and judges with personal loyalists, so that pesky evidence thing can be made irrelevant.
Do you get a lot of agreement with your ‘agree with me or you are a weasel’ tactic?
Seems more for yourself than for anyone else.
Over and over and over again - Trumps actual acts are irrelevant and magically absolved.
The "insurrection" as meant in Sec. 3 of Amendment XIV was the US Civil War. Defining the word to cover a lesser situation is questionable. The Judge over-thought the question. This is one reason why the public is losing confidence in the judiciary.
They were capable of writing section 3 that way, if that is what was intended. They did not, and we are stuck with what they actually wrote and ratified. I do agree with you that "engaging in insurrection" needs to be something similar to what Confederates did in the Civil War, but I don't think limiting it to 1861-5 actions is reasonable.
Agree. Especially given the fact that the danger of breakup didn't vanish immediately. e.g. 1876 almost saw another civil war.
Yes, the Supreme Court is free to adopt that interpretation, assuming it is supported by the historical record. I just doubt it is.
"the attackers were trying to use force to block the transfer of power to the rightful winner of a presidential election."
That's a lie. They wanted the election certification delayed a day or two so election irregularities could be looked in to.
If the 'attackers' had intended to use force they would have been armed.
First, the irregularities were illusory, as evidence -- or, more accurate, lack of evidence -- (before and after Jan. 6) demonstrated.
Second, many of the attackers (and their supporters) continue to exhibit and express delusions concerning that election cycle rather than accept the verdicts, the concessions, the record, the concessions, the convictions, the allocutions, etc. Democracy Docket has plenty of information -- especially pleadings, orders, and decisional opinions -- with respect to the efforts to identify irregularities and challenge election results.
Third, the attackers used force, committed crimes, and attempted to block the transfer of power.
Other than that, though, great comment!
You're talking to people who see no issue with black poll workers bringing in truckloads of ballots from da ghetto in the darkness of night and refusing to allow any independents to watch them count.
They wanted the election certification delayed a day or two so election irregularities could be looked in to.
Nobody’s retarded enough to believe this. There’s no evidence for it, the imagined irregularities had already been looked into, and a “couple days” wouldn’t be remotely sufficient were there anything remaining to look into.
And besides all of that, there’s no constitutional mechanism for such a thing, so it’s still an insurrection.
If the ‘attackers’ had intended to use force they would have been armed.
Again, they did use force, so you’re already retarded.
And again besides that, they were armed.
Entirely all of your premises and conclusions are lies. Congratulations on being maximally dishonest and/or retarded.
I believe their plan was not simply to delay the certification "a day or two", but to throw out the entire Electoral College process, thus engineering a substitute "one-state-one-vote" election (virtually guaranteeing a Republican victory).
This ruling is clearly a set-up to keep the findings of fact in place while inviting the Colorado Supreme Court to overturn the decision's legal basis. This judge should be ashamed.
On the contrary, Judge Wallace specifically acknowledged the fact that some of the legal reasoning was a close call that will be appealed to the Colorado Supreme Court [and likely to SCOTUS for that matter].
In this footnote, she stated her findings of fact were purposefully structured in a way to reduce the potential of a need for the a higher court to remand back to her for further consideration:
That’s a smart, rational, and good thing.
All these "findings" are dicta.
The deciding question is not if there was an insurrection, its if 14A applies to Trump. Since she held it did not, he could have carried a M-16 into the Capitol, shot Pence and Pelosi and he could not be disqualified.
Its just a Mother Jones article.
Why is that significant = All these “findings” are dicta.
Yes, which is yet another example of why the interpretation that section 3 doesn't apply to the Presidency is absurd and cannot be right.
That's just not how it works. If Betty Crackpot carried an M-16 into the Capitol and shot Pence and Pelosi, everyone agrees she couldn't be disqualified, because she never took an oath to support the constitution.
So the question here isn't whether or not 14/3 "applies to the presidency," it's whether it applies to ex-presidents.
I think even the judge in this case agrees that if Trump had ever been a Senator, he would be barred from running for president.
It's pretty fucking obvious Brandon aided and abetted the Taliban.
Was this after Trump essentially surrendered to the Taliban in February 2020? Speaking of which, it's worth looking into, I suppose...
The fact that the media is giving so much credence to this inconsequential ruling by a dumb bimbo out in Colorado shows how biased they are.
If she actually disqualified Trump, you know that there would be a lawsuit filed to disqualify Brandon.
Brandon is a traitor homosexual terrorist.
We had to strike back at the Taliban after 9/11.
That didn't mean nation building was a good idea.
I supported withdrawing from Afghhanistan.
that didn't mean giving gthe Taliban American materiel.
It's like Nixon giving the north Vietnamese F-14s and a few ICBMs while withdrawing from South Vietnam!
Bernie Sanders tells overflow crowd at Amphitheater: ‘Fight like hell’ for progressive, $3.5T bill
More than 2,300 people spill over Tippecanoe Amphitheater to hear Sen. Bernie Sanders pitch a $3.5T bill he says will fundamentally change America. Lafayette’s congressional delegation: Not impressed
Dave Bangert on Substake Aug 28, 2021
Jun 8, 2020 -Axios
Politics & Policy
Schumer: Senate Democrats will "fight like hell" to pass police reform bill
headshot
Elizabeth Warren@ewarren May 5, 2022
I’m MADDER than hell. And I’m determined to fight like hell.
All these calls for violence. Tsk tsk.
That seems reasonable, assuming context does not affect the meaning of language. If it did, then that would be an amazingly stupid thing to bring up.
Context is political hyperbole.
Trump uses a common political saying, INSURRECTION!
Its Complete BS.
If Sanders's followers had left that rally and done an insurrection, I promise you we'd be looking into Sanders's role for evidence of incitement.
So you are saying that "fight like hell" is some sort of secret code to insurrect?
I'm saying it was part of a pattern that in fact led to an insurrection. The only question is Trump's intent, and there's lots of reasons to conclude, at the judge did, that Trump really was attempting to incite it, successfully.
How did the words "fight like hell" lead to an insurrection?
Read the opinion.
An example of how context matters:
Some friends of mine have a sign in their kitchen that says "You only live once. Go ahead and lick the bowl."
Now, move that sign to the bathroom and observe how context matters.
So how does “fight like Hell” become a secret code word to start or continue an insurrection?
Read the opinion.
Sorry Ilya. Just saying that your interpretation is "obvious" while the judge's is "ridiculous" and "absurd" doesn't cut it.
The text of Section 3 plainly doesn't include P/VP. You might think that's absurd, but there are perfectly rational policy reasons for excluding them.
In fact, this exact situation with Trump is a predictable scenario that Section 3 was wisely drafted to avoid.
Which situation would that be?
A popular candidate facing disqualification.
That would apply to Congressional candidates as well, but they are excluded. Why would the presidency be different?
Because of the national scope. The point was to keep ex-confederate states from inflicting their favorite insurrectionists onto the country. But that justification doesn’t make sense when the whole country is involved in the decision.
The point was to keep insurrectionists out of positions of power. There isn't a single shred of historical evidence that they considered local or state versus national scope to be significant. There is nothing in the text that indicates that either, or unambiguously excludes the Presidency and Vice Presidency. The notion that they intended to do that, and then buried it so subtly in artful textual interpretation, is hard to take seriously.
I think it’s hard to take seriously that they enumerated every high-level position within the government except P/VP and then just assumed everyone would read those positions in through the word “officer.” Especially since other enumerated positions have an actually strong claim to the “officer” designation.
But the record of the time has ample evidence that the President was referred to as an officer and that "under" and "of" do not represent a significant difference. It is lamentable that Congress did not contain one naif who would ask whether the President/Presidency was included among officers/offices, with all and sundry assuring that bumpkin that of course it was included after they laughed at him for five minutes. It is not credible that they all implicitly agreed that the President could be an insurrectionist previously bound by an oath because it was a national vote but never saw fit to comment on that conclusion in the record.
The lack of adequate copy/paste capabilities and spell checking software at the time the 14th Amendment was drafted has now been proven to have been an issue.
I blame Bill Gates for killing WordStar. (Or maybe it just seems that old?)
“Under” vs. “of” is a tawdry red herring. Whoever started that one should have their JD revoked.
The operative difference is “office” vs “officer,” which are two different words with different meanings. Not every officer holds an office, and not every office is occupied by an officer. Officers are always of, and offices are always under (unless describing a specific office). An “officer under the court” is just wrong, as is “offices of the DoJ.”
The questions, then, are distinct: is the presidency an office, and is the president an officer. The presidency is clearly an office. The question of whether the president is an officer is hazier.
FWIW, I’m drifting towards Ilya’s position (but not his dumb reasoning). One reason is Article VI — thanks to you and not guilty for that one. Also looking closer at 14/3, the positions that the disqualification applies to are offices, which the presidency most definitely is. The set of triggering oaths are those taken by officers, which the president may or may not be. The question of whether the presidential oath counts as such an oath is pretty vapid compared to whether 14/3 applies to the presidency. I can’t really get worked up about it either way. I like the Article VI parallel enough that I’d be willing to go with that and say it counts; also that’s the simpler outcome since it avoids the “officeholder but not officer” nit.
Prof Somin does not "just say" those things. He goes on for multiple paragraphs with a cogent explanation why the judge's interpretation is “ridiculous” and “absurd”.
You might want to try reading it.
His "cogent explanation" is just a policy argument that he deems "obvious."
I can do that. "It's obvious that the second amendment doesn't cover assault rifles. Because assault rifles are too dangerous. It would be ridiculous and absurd for people to have the right to own one." Fortunately, that's not how the Constitution works.
My, my...I happen to agree with this comment. There is hope, after all.
You are usually better here than this straw manning.
That’s not a strawman. It’s an illustrative example.
You might disagree that the example effectively parallels Ilya’s argument. That just makes it a bad example, not a strawman.
What’s the over-under on what portion of those who agree with Blackman’s argument who would argue the exact opposite if it were Biden or Obama instead of Trump?
I’m fairly certain Prof. Somin’s analysis would remain unchanged, since he’s not a hack. Blackman OTOH…
I understand that it is sometimes the role of an attorney to make arguments that while absurd may possibly help their client. But it’s not the role of a legal scholar who lacks an attorney-client relationship with the person in question.
So Brandon is disqualified for aiding and abetting the Taliban?
Don’t you mean Trump? Biden inherited the withdrawal set-up from Trump.
He also "inherited" the border wall but had no trouble cancelling that.
You are such a fucktard!
Yes, both were utter shambles he inherited from Trump and had to deal with, good point.
Speaking of fucktards, my dear bee...
https://www.texastribune.org/2023/10/05/biden-border-wall-texas-starr-county/
The core principle has to be that people should be free to vote for whomever they want. And that it's dangerous to give partisan officials discretion to bar candidates. Such power is just too easily abused. So, rules like minimum age or birthplace are ok, as they give no discretion. But on amorphous things like Section 3, no one should be disqualified unless there's NO rational disagreement possible as to its application.
I'd never in my life vote for Trump, and think he's a unique danger to our system. But stopping people who do want to vote for him, from voting how they want, is just wrong.
That's a good argument not to ratify section 3 of 14A. But it's in there now, and we have to live with it. And it requires "partisan officials," in some cases, to make the decision to bar candidates. I agree completely, not a great situation.
To the extent q7's comment is "genuous", there is room to discuss the appropriate scrutiny and process which should be involved in a court finding that someone like Trump was indeed "disabled" from serving again as President (or dogcatcher).
All in due course.
"After all, the attackers were trying to use force to block the transfer of power to the rightful winner of a presidential election. "
I'm not very smart, so perhaps you can point out to me in detail how these people wandering around the building would have succeeded in "blocking the transfer of power."
Was there a king or queen in that building that was going to be deposed?
I’m not very smart
Don't be so hard on yourself! But, this is probably not the best place to get educated about US government basics.
Maybe start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_Count_Act
I think I'm pretty well educated on how the US government works, Randy.
But perhaps you can explain how people wandering around a building (with cops standing around chatting among themselves, according to the latest released videos) will cause a change to occur in the count.
People invading the Capitol and killing or taking hostage the Vice President and many members of Congress could have blocked the transfer of power, or justified other tactics by the Insurrectionist-in-Chief which would prevent the transfer of power. (Do you remember how Giuliani tried to remain mayor due to 9/11?)
I think I’m pretty well educated on how the US government works, Randy.
That appears not to be the case.
You see, there’s a process (linked above) that drives the transition of power. Normally it’s a peaceful process; not so in 2020. In 2020 there was an insurrection that was successful in impeding the process briefly. A more successful insurrection could have disrupted the process to an even greater extent.
As an example, imagine the insurrectionists had succeeded in killing Pence. Trump could’ve nominated a sycophant as VP who could’ve refused to certify. Or, if Congress refused to confirm, Trump might've simply held the VP spot open. Since the VP is required by the electoral vote count, any certification of the count without a VP would’ve been suspect.
You might want to read your own colleague's work here on this site.
Is the President an "officer of the United States" for purposes of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment?
written by JOSH BLACKMAN | 1.20.2021 12:00 PM
There are very good legal arguments as to why the "Office" of the President is not the same as an "Officer" and should be separate.
Further, in that same article, it's noted:
There is a recent Supreme Court opinion discussing the scope of the Constitution's "Officers of the United States"-language. In Free Enter. Fund v. Pub. Co. Accounting Oversight Bd. (2010), Chief Justice Roberts observed that "[t]he people do not vote for the 'Officers of the United States.'" Rather, "officers of the United States" are appointed exclusively pursuant to Article II, Section 2 procedures. It follows that the President, who is an elected official, is not an "officer of the United States."
Ultimately, I expect the ruling that Trump engaged in incitement to be overturned anyway, as it flies on the face of Brandenburg v Ohio and Hess v. Indiana.
No matter how Trump's words may have been interpreted, the "imminent" is missing. The judge should have known this.
"Elected official", in a way, but the people do not directly elect the President or VP, of course.
Ironically, the supposed goal of the J6 insurrection was to implement a process to appoint Trump as President again which also would not have been an "election" in any meaningful sense. (The states' selection of the President.)
Here is Jack Marshall's take.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/11/20/more-capitol-riot-roshomon/
Then why wasn’t a single person involved in Jan 6 charged with insurrection?