The Volokh Conspiracy
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Prof. Samuel Estreicher (NYU) on The Laws of War, as to the Hamas-Israel War
From the article, by a leading American academic who teaches and writes about, among other things, Foreign Relations Law and the law of war:
Those who argue Israel does not have a right of self defense make two claims: First, they argue that Israel's "inherent right" is nullified because it is the "occupying power" of the Gaza Strip; and, second, they argue that the right of self-defense in Article 51 of the UN Charter applies only to force against other states, not non-state actors like Hamas.
Both arguments are unavailing. It is highly doubtful that Israel qualifies as an "occupying" power of the Gaza Strip because once it withdrew all military forces from Gaza in 2005, it has exercised no authority over the territory, which is a requirement under international law before assuming the responsibility of an occupying power. UN groups like the Human Rights Council counter that the status of "occupier" still applies because Israel has imposed stringent limits on travel to and trade with Gaza. And yet Egypt has (mostly) sealed off Gaza's other border without being termed an occupying power.
In any event, even if Israel were an occupying power, that status would not justify Hamas' intentional attacks on civilian targets in Israel or prevent Israel from using force to protect itself. For example, it was not considered illegal for the United States, as the occupying power of Iraq in the immediate aftermath of the 2003 Iraq War, to use force against Iraqis who were attacking U.S. forces within Iraq.
The second argument against Israel's right of self-defense—that it cannot invoke this right against non-state actors like Hamas—is equally untenable.
Article 51 of the UN Charter states that nothing shall "impair the inherent right" of self-defense possessed by all member states. In recent years, many governments, including the United States, have adopted the view that this right of self-defense applies against non-state actors like al-Qaeda and ISIS in situations where the government of the state in which the non-state actors are operating is "unwilling or unable" to prevent attacks by the non-state actor. The case of the Gaza conflict is much stronger for Israel than the "unwilling or unable" rationale; Israel is protecting against Hamas' direct, indiscriminate killing, beheading, torture and hostage-taking of Israeli civilians.
Of course, Israel must exercise its right of self-defense in conformity with international humanitarian law (IHL), also known as the laws of war or armed conflict. This body of customary international law, which was codified in the 1949 Geneva Conventions and their subsequent protocols, limits the use of force to the following situations: military necessity; where a distinction is made between combatants and non-combatants; and where the use of force is proportionate to the concrete military objective sought to be achieved.
Israel Defense Forces' (IDF) attacks on Hamas military targets in Gaza, thus far, almost certainly comply with these principles. However, Hamas' indiscriminate killings, beheadings, maimings, hostage-taking, and rocket attacks against Israeli civilians almost certainly violate these principles. Their violations extend to Gazans as well. Hamas places its military installations and fighters next to and underneath its civilian population centers, in the hope that the Israeli military response will result in collateral civilian deaths and produce battalions of additional supporters for the Palestinian cause. The weaponization of Gazan civilian lives is reprehensible, and we must keep in mind that it is an intentional, indeed central, strategy for Hamas. That strategy, whatever its harm to Israelis, is the direct cause of Gazan civilian deaths, injuries, and destruction of their property….
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Change Biden’s Diapers
Wouldn't that be a biological war crime?
Depends.
+1
Good brief answer.
No shit.
Incorrect.
His point on proportionality is particularly important, that it's not about the current ratio of casualties on the two sides, which will almost always seem disproportionate, but Gazan casualties against the legitimate goal of thwarting Hamas.
How do we know how many Gazan casualties there are? Statements from the Hamas ministry of truth and propaganda are unreliable at best and pure fiction at worst.
There is reporting other than by Hamas over there I hear.
Share a cite for what you "hear".
does Sacastro mean the reporters embedded with hamas or the reporters and news agencies sharing office space with hamas
The voices in his head?
You think every reporter in Israel right now works for Hamas?
Be serious for once.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/media/2023/10/09/journalists-israel-hamas-coverage-danger/
That's it? A month old story.
Your link seems to say:
1)Someone (Hamas?) is still routinely rocketing Israel
2)None of those reporters are in Gaza
So I'm curious what the reliable sources of Israeli war crimes are. Is the theory that Israeli sources, in Israel, are briefing those reporters about Israeli war crimes?
Not trying to gotcha - I haven't been following every twist and turn. What are the reliable, first hand not-Hamas-propaganda sources that have convinced you the Israelis are committing war crimes?
The reporters were going TO Gaza in the story from a month ago.
It would be off if all these media folks scrambled to send reporters there and then they already left.
Maybe I should have just linked to some reporting, but I thought this story made a broader point and prevented the 'well that guy is secretly a Hamas supporter, what with reporting about deaths and all' followup.
The idea that the only sources for death numbers is Hamas is a weak excuse to ignore the death numbers.
Huh? The fact that the source of the numbers is completely non-credible seems like a good reason to ignore them to me.
And you seem to be changing your claim. Before you implied that there were other sources of casualty figures than Hamas, but now you're walking that back and claiming we should trust Hamas's numbers.
You were all about "credibility determination" in just the other thread. And now you're determining that Hamas has credibility about death counts. Hm.
"The reporters were going TO Gaza in the story from a month ago."
What I see in your sourse:
"Williams reported from Gaza in 2014 and 2021, but said it’s not possible right now to get there."
"“Gaza is impossible to reach right now,” said Fox’s Yingst"
I mean, you proffered that as evidence that there were unbiased boots on the ground in Gaza. But it doesn't say that. You went to law school ... would you expect that reporters saying they couldn't get to Gaza a month ago means those reporters must be in Gaza now would convince a jury?
Abdul Amir: How do we know how many Gazan casualties there are?
Sarcastro: There is reporting other than by Hamas over there
You may be right about there being unbiased reporters in Gaza, and that the Israelis are running amok - but the link you gave isn't evidence of either.
So you were called out - again - and you whiffed. Color me surprised.
1. Absaroka is right - re-reading it today, my source does not stand for what I thought it did.
2. Rather than that source, I would point to James Shotter, the Jerusalem Correspondent at the Financial Times. He does not work for Hamas, and he is actively reporting in the area.
3. In general, it looks like death tolls are sourced not from Hamas, but from Israeli officials as well:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html
4. To review what I was pushing back against: "How do we know how many Gazan casualties there are? Statements from the Hamas ministry of truth and propaganda are unreliable at best and pure fiction at worst."
This remains a dodge more than a view. While skepticism about individual stories is especially called for in these fog of war times, this assumption that all facts on the ground are Hamas-sourced is ignorant of the sourcing done and cited in actual reporting. It is basically willful blindness.
5. If you want to support Israel, reflexively denying all bad things you hear about them is not the way to do that.
"skepticism about individual stories is especially called for in these fog of war times"
Long winded rant: This is partly agreement with the above, and partly a response to this from elsewhere in the thread:
"Having “misgivings” without offering any alternative is empty virtue signaling, nothing more."
It's always wise to keep in mind that we rarely know things with certainty; every fact in our heads ought to have associated confidence intervals. And in a conflict like this, those confidence intervals ought to be fairly large.
What would it take to be 100% sure that the Israelis are committing war crimes? If you were a fly on the wall at headquarters and you overhear:
Colonel:We've got 100 bombers loaded up, what are today's targets?
General:We don't have any military targets right now, just have them look for kindergartens and bomb those; after all, little Palestinians grow up into big ones
Colonel: Roger that
then, yep, that's a war crime. But we aren't flies on that wall.
Looking at the other side of the coin, wars aren't generally clean. In WWII the Eastern Front and the Pacific were close to no quarter given conflicts. But even on the Western Front, which was about as civilized as wars get there were exceptions. Famous ones like the Malmedy Massacre, and lots that didn't get recorded. I recall reading one history (sorry, can't remember which one) that posited the following for that war: you are a machine gunner under attack. You have a great position, and have cost the attacking platoon several casualties. When the attackers finally get up to grenade range, you stop firing, wave a white towel, and try to surrender. What are your odds of surviving the next 5 minutes? The book, based on talking to a lot of soldiers, was 50%. Trying to surrender to people whose best friends you just killed is a risky business. At least in that author's view, that is a war crime, and a common one: there is likely to be an irreducible level of brutality in war. The only way to stop that is to not start wars.
And wars out in the countryside are a lot safer for civilians than urban combat. When troops are tossing grenades while clearing rooms, or using tank fire to get the sniper in the apartment building, there are going to be a lot of civilian casualties. And that's a tragedy. It may be necessary, but I think it's also good to have misgivings.
I'm surely not a 'violence is not the answer' type. Violence - and a great deal of it - is entirely appropriate for Osama, for any of the Hamas types who crossed the border and so on. But I suspect that there are a lot of Gazans who don't support Hamas, and young children are by definition innocents. And if a Hamas sniper is shooting from an apartment building with kids in it and a tank shell kills him and some of the kids, those deaths may well be his fault. But ... it's not the kid's fault.
Are you claiming that counts of Gazan casualties are sourced from Israeli officials? There are no examples of that in the article you linked to. If you’re not claiming that, you’re moving the goalposts.
Wow. Have some mercy on that poor strawman. No one was making an “assumption that all facts on the ground are Hamas-sourced,” they were claiming that one specific set of facts, Gazan casualty counts, were Hamas sourced. You have not refuted that claim.
Why don’t you just admit that we have no idea what the Gazan casualty counts are, because the only figures available are unreliable?
Sacastro - respond to what I wrote - your intentional distortions get old
If you are aware of a source for Palestinian casualty figures that isn’t reliant on Hamas, I’d be grateful if you shared it.
It's a war zone, there's no such thing as a reliable way of determining casualty figures in such circumstances. That's generally not an excuse to dismiss the very concept and idea of casualty figures.
No, but it's a good reason to say, look, we don't have any reliable casualty figures, so we have no idea how many casualties there are.
It's great you can support the bombing of a city and then shrug and say, well, who knows how many have died? They're so unreliable! They're estimates. They can only be estimates. The actual figure will almost certainly be higher.
Yeah, they're estimates by people who rape and murder civilians, behead babies, take hostages, and, quite plausibly, lie.
We're going to be applying this standard to the actual casualties soon aren't we?
The standard of whether or not the information is credible? I hope so.
'There's no way of knowing if over a month of relentless bombing has killed thousands of people, oh well.'
Even if you assume the health ministry in Gaza is basically Hamas (which is not irrational, but seems to be coming in a bit hot) you can get a lower bound from Israel itself:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201
"We also asked the Israeli prime minister's office about how the numbers of Israelis killed on 7 October by Hamas were recorded. It did not answer that question, however in recent days Israel has revised down the number of people killed during the attack to about 1,200, from the earlier figure of 1,400."
Huh? How's that a lower bound on the number of Palestinian casualties?
That article provides no information about Palestinian casualty figures in the current war except those sourced from the Gaza Health Ministry.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. Pretending that Gazan government agencies are NOT run by Hamas is like claiming that HHS is not run by the US Federal Government.
Of course they're unreliable - lots of bodies still buried in rubble and the exact number of injuries is probably impossible to determine in the current circumstances.
Always inventing new ways to sound stupid.
So focused on enabling the killing of civilians you're denying that bodies get buried under rubble and it's difficult to quantify injuries.
Who's focused on enabling the killing of civilians?
The civilian deaths are indeed unfortunate, but all Hamas' fault, as they are using them as shields. Israel is completely justified in their response, in eradicating the threat to their existence.
Calling them 'unfortunate' is enabling. Hamas killing civilians isn't 'unfortunate,' why is anyone else killing civilians 'unfortunate?' We've also seen that IDF claims about which civilians Hamas are hiding behind are suspect at best. But the point is, Mr Bumble doesn't think that after a relentless bombing campaign there might be bodies buried in rubble.
"Hamas killing civilians isn’t ‘unfortunate,’ why is anyone else killing civilians ‘unfortunate?’"
Hamas killing civilians is intentional. Gazan civilian deaths are the unfortunate collateral damage of Israel's necessary efforts to defend themselves and their civilians from being deliberately murdered by Hamas.
Hope this helps.
If you know there's going to be collateral damage, then the killings are equally intentional. You're just indifferent to those particular civilian deaths.
Sigh. That's not how the law of war works. And you know that that's not how the law of war works.
And I'm not indifferent to the deaths, but I do blame Hamas for them.
If you blame Hamas rather than the people doing the actual killing, then you are not indifferent, you're supporting the killing.
.
That kind of thinking is an existential threat to the current Israel.
Unless you figure Israel can survive without American taxpayer-funded skirts to hide behind.
"Of course they’re unreliable – lots of bodies still buried in rubble and the exact number of injuries is probably impossible to determine in the current circumstances."
Yes, but they're also unreliable because people who are willing to rape and murder civilians and behead babies are probably also willing to lie about casualty figures.
You think they're the guys in the Health Ministry, do you? Those don't sound like the sort of guys who have much to do with health.
The Health Ministry is run by Hamas, and all their communications are strictly controlled by Hamas, so yes.
Thousands and thousands of civilians have died. There's just no getting around it, whatever your reasons for denying it.
Many civilians have died. We have no idea how many.
But we know it's probably at least ten thousand.
How do we know that?
You’re so close to getting it!
The body count is going to end up even higher.
Israel Defense Forces’ (IDF) attacks on Hamas military targets in Gaza, thus far, almost certainly comply with these principles.
Ipse dixit.
No, it's not the topic of his article, which is to refute the absurd argument that Israel has no right of self-defense until international law. His position is that it does have such right, but it must be exercised in acc. with the laws of war. He doesn't have to prove what he is not addressing.
Now it's your turn to prove otherwise.
I agree his main thesis is Israel has a right to defend itself. But per the part I quoted, he made an additional claim without providing an argument.
The legal principles he alludes to are (1) Necessity, (2) Distinction, and (3) Proportionality. The article explains how Israel's military response satisfies (1) and (2). As for (3), the proportionality of the response to the military objective -- not the erroneously claimed proportionality of one side's casualties to the other's -- it's a fact intensive question which can't be answered without investigation. It depends on what was reasonable from Israel's POV when it initiated the operation, not what might seem reasonable post hoc to a detached observer.
I would tend to agree on the first two principles (there would have to be concrete evidence to the contrary to negate what Israel has claimed), but on proportionality:
It depends on what was reasonable from Israel’s POV when it initiated the operation, not what might seem reasonable post hoc to a detached observer..
At first blush, it strikes me that standard would neuter the proportionality requirement. Is there case law in support of it?
I would also add there is a requirement of taking feasible precautions to not harm civilians, including choosing an action that meets the military goal that causes lesser harm to civilians. This is another fact-intensive analysis that ought to be considered in this case given the extreme suffering. For example, does Israel have other feasible options that don’t include hospitals running out of fuel or food and water being in short supply.
What's your suggestion for " other feasible options"?
I'm not competent to decide what, or even if, there a feasible options. I'm just saying as a layman, the suffering in Gaza is deplorable and better minds than mine should be thinking about options.
Well, until you come up with a reasonable alternative, shut up.
Unlike far too many commenters here, I'm happy to acknowledge my shortcomings (*). But no, those shortcomings do not mean I should shut up about having misgivings about the suffering in Gaza.
(*) Perhaps the people who thump their chests with certainty when they too have shortcomings ought to shut up until they acknowledge their shortcomings.
Having "misgivings" without offering any alternative is empty virtue signaling, nothing more.
Indeed, better minds are = better minds than mine should be thinking about options
Two words: Population transfer
He said 'better' minds.
Indeed, why are you even here, dipshit?
The conversation.
Population transfer seems worthy of consideration.
Especially if the Israeli immigrants choose some of America’s deplorable backwaters for their new, safer, better homes. Imagine how much better off those immigrants would be, and the transformative effect they could have on current write-offs West Virginia, West Texas, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Wyoming, Alabama, Idaho . . .
Population transfer = ethnic cleansing.
If everyone agrees that someone's gotta go... shouldn't it be the Israelis? What's your case for it being the Palestinians?
Note that I'm not there yet, I still think Israel should exist. But not at the cost of ethnic cleansing or genocide.
The 6 time losers (that is the palestinians) leave. The victors (that is Israel) stay. The useful idiots (looking at you Randal) will bleat irritatingly, like the steady dripping of rain from a gutter, but they'll go away too.
Yes yes, you sound positively German. Congratulations on becoming everything you hate.
Big assumption there about him hating it.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/11/can-israel-win-the-peace.php
excellent article of the geopolitical aspects of Gaza
Something that is ignored by leftists
It's just my recollection from my Int'l Law class. Since I attended law school in the days of crossbows and trebuchets, no, I can't say I recall which if any cases we read, but I doubt the general principles have changed.
Why do you think the standard neuters the proportionality requirement? The assessment is made from the POV of the military commander, but, the commander has to act reasonably. For example, if he orders a building bombed which he reasonably believes is a military operations post empty of civilians, and it turns out to be neither, he hasn't violated the principle of proportionality. But if he willfully ignores reliable evidence that the civilian presence is high and the military value low, he's violated the principle. In other words, it's an objective-subjective standard, i.e., what a reasonable military commander would judge proportional from the POV of the actual commander.
So long as the determination can be reviewed by third parties acting as a military commander at the time of action, I'm OK with that standard. What I'm not OK with is accepting only Israel's opinion of what the military commander thought (which is how I read your original comment - my bad).
What's the alternative to acting on the basis of the information you have when you act? Time travel, or just not acting?
This was a great post, esp on proportionality.
Are there elements that determine proportionality in that fact based investigation, Vryedni?
Sorry, but if there's more specific guidance than what I just mentioned above, I don't recall it.
All of that should seem obvious to any rational person.
One of the anti-Israel arguments is that "the right of self-defense in Article 51 of the UN Charter applies only to force against other states, not non-state actors like Hamas."
Isn't Hamas a state actor? It was elected and has governed Gaza for more than 15 years. Or, is state actor a U.N. member-state actor?
Israel itself denies that Gaza is a state or part of a state... because if it were, the blockade would be harder to justify. So no, Hamas isn't a state actor. What state do you think it represents?
It has de facto control over Gaza.
The People's Republic of Gaza?
Hamas certainly considers itself a governing body of a state.
And Hamas doesn't get to mass murder its way through a loophole somewhere between a bunch of bank robbers and a tiny city state.
I agree, but nor does Israel get to occupy Gaza under a loophole while shirking the obligations of an occupying force.
Can we dispense with the false assertion that Israel occupies Gaza, It hasnt been true for 16 or so years
I'm not having this argument with you again. It sounds like you agree that they were occupying Gaza for the 40 years prior to that. And, they've said they're going to occupy it again starting now. So, whatever you think was going on from 2005 to 2023, Israel was previously and is now occupying Gaza, so they bear the obligations of an occupying force going forward.
Of course you cant have an argument with anyone on the subject when you are so thoroughly misinformed on the history of the region.
you continue to makes statements that are pure BS
Israel certainly has not - HAS NOT - been occupying gaza since 2005.
Under what legal standard, Randal? You yammer about that all the time. Israel has an obligation as an occupying power. Really?
Name the laws that specify why Israel has the obligation.
You won't find them; you got bupkes.
"...you got bupkes." You forgot to ad: for brains.
Israel has avoided accountability consequent to, for example, America’s reflexive use of vetoes (obstructionism) at the United Nations and America’s provision of other skirts the Israelis currently hide behind. How much longer will modern America subsidize violent, selfish, immoral right-wingers in Israel? What will Israel do after its big brother leaves the playground?
God you’re dumb XY. The simplest ever googling reveals:
The rules of occupation are delineated in various international agreements, primarily the Hague Convention of 1907, the Geneva Conventions of 1949, as well as established state practice. The relevant international conventions, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Commentaries, and other treaties by military scholars provide guidelines on such topics as rights and duties of the occupying power, protection of civilians, treatment of prisoners of war, coordination of relief efforts, issuance of travel documents, property rights of the populace, handling of cultural and art objects, management of refugees, and other concerns which are very important both before and after the cessation of hostilities. A country that establishes an occupation and violates internationally agreed upon norms runs the risk of censure, criticism, or condemnation. In the current era, the practices of occupations have largely become a part of customary international law, and form a part of the laws of war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupation
Randal - cut the Crappy BS - Gaza is not occupied - Your entire premise you keep repeating is False.
And yet Egypt has (mostly) sealed off Gaza's other border without being termed an occupying power.
Dumb. If the only thing Israel had been doing was sealing its own borders, this might be a relevant point. But unlike Egypt, Israel is also blocking Gaza's airspace and access to the Mediterranean, and it monitors Egypt's border to ensure it's sealed. That's why Israel is the occupier, not Egypt.
That does not make Israel an "occupier" of Gaza. If it were, by the way, it would have the obligation to get rid of Hamas.
That's my point. Israel has had the obligation to get rid of Hamas for twenty years, but sat on its hands. In fact, it seems to have liked having Hamas there.
Better late than never, but it remains to be seen if Israel has actually turned over a new leaf and intends to do the work (and compromise) necessary for a lasting peace, or if it'll instead just continue to occupy Gaza indefinitely, holding everyone there prisoner.
Your comment makes no sense. Why would Israel have an obligation to get rid of Hamas? In an effort to achieve some kind o peace they left Gaza in 2005, displacing over 9000 Jewish settlers and leaving all of the infrastructure they built behind. They also continued to supply water and electricity to Gaza The Gazan’s choose Hamas over the PLA and rather than try to improve the life of it’s citizens it sent most of the aid they received enriching the leaders (living large in Qatar), buying weapons and building a network of tunnels to attack Israel.
In an effort to achieve some kind o peace
How can you write that with a straight face?
"In an effort to achieve some kind of peace with the Jews, Germany gave them free lodging in concentration camps," according to the bee.
So you're equating Israel to the Nazis?
No, you are.
You must be related to SarcastrO and Nige.
You're the one who said that the way to achieve peace is to fence the other side into an inescapable, military-patrolled enclave.
Where did I say that?
You must be related to Cheech and/or Chong.
Not related, but just as antisemitic.
.
That's just paltry, partisan, principle-free sniping. If you genuinely objected to antisemitism you would not pal around with America's current batch of deplorable right-wingers.
For example: What's your view on short guys in yarmulkes counting your money, clinger?
Bullshyte.
Is Egypt blocking a border or isn't it?
EVERYTHING Israel was doing would be negated by Egypt keeping even a single border crossing open. It might cause logistical difficulties, but as long as ONE Egyptian border crossing was open, anything or anyone sought to be in Gaza could get there.
So? Counterfactuals are counter to the facts, you know, so they don't prove much.
Anyway, I suspect if Egypt tried that, Israel would just deploy along the Philadelphi Route again.
Randal - who blocked the Jordanians (palestinians) from leaving the area in 1948?
Hint - it wasnt the new state of Israel
No shit. Israel's been occupying Gaza since 1967, and generally it's been happy to let people leave, even paying them to do so... as long as it's permanent.
Many people around here call this a form of genocide, at least when the same logic is applied to Israel.
Israel LEFT Gaza in 2005!!
That's like saying the prison guard LEFT the prisoner in his cell, so the prisoner was no longer in custody at that point. How could the prisoner possibly be in custody if the guard wasn't even there?
Well, it would be like that if the cell had another door.
As long as there are two doors, Israel can't be "the" captor. Just one of them.
Does the number of captors reduce or eliminate culpability?
The fact that there's another locked door has no bearing on who's running the prison.
Randal - Randal 5 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
No shit. Israel’s been occupying Gaza since 1967, and generally it’s been happy to let people leave, even paying them to do so… as long as it’s permanent.
"Many people around here call this a form of genocide, at least when the same logic is applied to Israel."
Randal - letting people leave is a form of genocide - who knew.
Rep. Derrick Van Orden, R-Wis., who recently traveled to Israel on a fact-finding mission after the Oct. 7 attack, told reporters he supports both censure resolutions.
“We cannot have sitting members of Congress calling for genocide. And ‘from the river to the sea’ is a call for genocide, for the eradication of the Jewish people. We just can’t do that,” Van Orden said. “Free speech is one thing, but calling actively for genocide of a people when you’re a sitting member of this House cannot stand. No way.”
When the goal of pressuring people to leave is ethnic cleansing, some people call that genocide. I don’t, but many do.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-vote-censure-rashida-tlaib-israel-hamas-palestine-remarks-rcna124005
Randal - you need to do a better job with your reading comprehension and understanding of the facts
Your response does not remotely address the point I made or remotely address to point you made .
Other than that - it does confirm that Rashida tlaid is a anti-semite
A bit dense, are you. Let me spell it out.
Even the most extreme interpretation of "from the river to the sea" would "let [Israelis] leave." Yet people like Rep. Derrick Van Orden, R-Wis. still call it genocide. A claim I've heard repeated frequently here, even by conspirators like David and Josh.
If a policy of emptying the area of Israelis is genocide, then so is a policy of emptying the area of Palestinians. Or Jews and Arabs, however you want to think about it.
I happen to think neither one is genocide.
Randal you are becoming extremely irrational with you comments
Van ordel was calling rashida tlaid out for her calls for genocide.
"Even the most extreme interpretation of “from the river to the sea” would “let [Israelis] leave.”"
You have a really circumscribed notion of how extreme people get.
Randal - Again you are wrong
Rashida Called for genocide
Rep Van Orden denounced her for calling for genocide
Get you facts straight -
Randal – letting people leave is a form of genocide – who knew.
You seem very confused. Do you agree with Van Orden that letting people leave is a form of genocide, or not? If so, then Israel has been engaging in genocide. If not, then Talib wasn't calling for genocide.
The Israelis can't leave - that'd mess up The Final Battle.
Randal 20 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Randal – letting people leave is a form of genocide – who knew.
You seem very confused.
Randal - the only thing I am confused about is why you have such a distorted understanding of the facts. Though I should be surprised since very few leftist have any understanding of the geopolitical reality which you have repetitively demostrated.
And yet you seem unable to answer simple questions about it.
I confess I don't get either of the arguments. If a nation can't use force against non-state actors or in territory they occupy, how would a country ever fight an insurgency?
The US military is forbidden by law to be used against the people of the US. Posse Comitatus Act.
Instead we have bunches of police officers running around in military gear doing the deed.
And the relevance of the Posse Comitatus Act to Israel is what, exactly?
Not to mention that even in the US, an insurgency of this kind -- an outside group looking to destroy the US -- would not be the subject of that law anyway.
That is not, in fact, what the Posse Comitatus Act says.
I wasn't speaking about the US in particular, but as long as we are you might remember this :
""In the mid-20th century, the administration of President Dwight D. Eisenhower used an exception to the Posse Comitatus Act, derived from the Enforcement Acts, to send federal troops into Little Rock, Arkansas, during the 1957 school desegregation crisis. The Arkansas governor had opposed desegregation after the United States Supreme Court ruled in 1954 in the Brown v. Board of Education that segregated public schools were unconstitutional. The Enforcement Acts, among other powers, allowed the president to call up military forces when state authorities were either unable or unwilling to suppress violence that was in opposition to the citizens' constitutional rights."
The 101st Airborne isn't the police. And if there was a serious insurgency, I'd expect whoever the president was to do the same.
As I understand it, the 101st was bunking in the White House basement during much of the Nixon Administration.
Wow. That sure was a well kept secret. Funny no one noticed them missing from Ft. Campbell ... you'd think the bar owners would wonder where everyone was. And the men didn't talk, and neither did their wives. Remarkable!
Kinda crowded down there in the basement, you'd think.
You obviously ignored the "as I understand it" qualifier. Dr. Ed's understandings are quite often divorced from reality, so the sentence is true.
So... 1200 Isrealis, mostly civilians, killed - that's bad.
11,000 Palestinians, mostly civilians, killed with food cut off, water cut off, power cut off and access to medical care cut off - that shows "Israel Defense Forces' (IDF) attacks on Hamas military targets in Gaza, thus far, almost certainly comply" with "international humanitarian law"
At the end of the day, Israel and its supporters of this action, need to justify their killings and their arguments are ringing hollow.
Israel's ethnic cleansing and quest for libensraum undermine their other arguments.
But Hamas's ethnic cleansing is just fine, eh? Their avowed goal of obliterating Israel and all Jews is your cup of tea, is that it?
I don't see anyone defending Hamas here. We can charge them all with war crimes, Hamas and Israel alike.
Randal 2 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"I don’t see anyone defending Hamas here. "
You have been constantly defending hamas - with virtually every post - just one example is when you claimed I was in favor of genocide by suggesting the IDF should kill the individual members of hamas.
That's not why I claimed you were in favor of genocide. I claimed you were in favor of genocide because you wanted to "destroy the culture." That's much broader than "the individual members of Hamas."
I'm not a defender of Hamas. They're worse than Israel even!
Randal - you have been defending Hamas both directly and indirectly with every comment
Destroying the culture of hate and killing all jews which is the culture of hamas - do you have a better suggestion for winning the peace or do you prefer some other method such as biden/obama preferred strategy of funding the hamas prime sponsor.
I've been attacking Israel, not defending Hamas. It's quite possible -- likely, in fact -- that they both suck.
If there were anyone here defending Hamas, I'd be attacking them too.
But, as I said, there isn't.
Other than numbers, you have nothing. Your argument is simplistic that you are either a moron or arguing in bad faith.
In WWII, 70,000 British died, while 2 Millions Germans died. Guess the Brits were all war criminals.
The justification here is simple: Hamas needs to be removed. Israel can do what is necessary to achieve that end, which is self-defense. It should and does attempt to minimize civilian casualties. But Hamas has purposely used a civilian population as human shields. So, despite best efforts, many civilians have died. All such deaths are the fault of the war criminals who have violated every law of war, including those designed to protect their own people.
Israel can do what is necessary to wipe out Hamas within the realm of decency. But necessity is increasingly hard to figure.
Big numbers of deaths are relevant for establishing necessity. And establishing decency.
Big numbers of deaths are relevant for establishing necessity
No, they are absolutely not. Not accordign to IHL, as the Britain/Germany example makes clear.
WW2 remains an pretty bad analogy. It's not that time, and Israel does not have the immediate existential necessity that England did.
What is your thesis then - that no amount of Palestinian causalities would be problematic?
Israel is still surrounded by countries that do not recognize their right to exist.
They are the ONLY country on Earth, save Taiwan, that has any existential threat.
Hamas started the war. Hamas is using their civilians as shields. ALL deaths are on the heads of Hamas.
By your moronic logic, Israel could wipe out every last Palestinian and it'd be Hamas' fault.
Think of some kind of limiting factor before you post like a simpleton.
Yes, they could.
Israel was doing nothing when Hamas decided to unleash an atrocity upon them for no reason.
ALL damages that arise from that is on them.
Ah.
You're dumb as fuck and I'm not going to listen to you anymore.
Being so harsh on yourself when looking in the mirror is not a good thing for you.
Sacastro - that is not what Damiskec stated -
Typical sarcastro - distort the persons statement so that you can condemn them for something they did not state.
Have you not been watching the news for the last few weeks?
Hamas has the will, but not the means.
So like Hitler and England, then 🙂
There is surely a continuum. Puerto Rican separatists might be on one end - dangerous, to be sure (remember them trying to assassinate Truman? In the middle of the capability continuum might be Hamas - the kind of attack they carried out is a lot worse than 2 guys trying an assassination. And, say, Russia and Ukraine is all the way at the other end.
I didn't realize this until I read the article: "Two days before the assassination attempt, Puerto Rican nationalists had attempted to overthrow the government of Puerto Rico. Uprisings occurred in many towns, including Jayuya where the two would-be assassins were born, and where their families still lived. In response, the U.S. Air Force bombed and strafed Jayuya, destroying it, and they bombed the neighboring town of Utuado.".
Bombing and destroying a town ... that's pretty harsh. Was it justified? I dunno enough to say, maybe there was another way, or not. But "Truman supported a 1952 plebiscite in Puerto Rico. 81.9% of votes were in favor of Puerto Rico continuing as a Free Associated State of the US.". Protecting the will of the 80% from a violent takeover of the <20% is a pretty important objective.
But anyway, let's look at the Hamas attack. On Oct 7 they launched 5000 (Hamas) or 3000 (Israel) rockets into Israel. 2900 Hamas attackers crossed the border and killed maybe 1200 Israelis. To scale that, it's like Mexican cartels crossed the border and killed 40K Americans. This wasn't, say, lone wolf Tim McVeigh. That's a situation for the police. Responding to the Oct 7 attacks is a military, not police, situation.
In 1916 Pancho Villa attacked a town in New Mexico, and killed under two dozen people. We mustered 100K troops on the border and sent Black Jack Pershing and 10K troops on a multi month chase inside Mexico. That was an attack that was orders of magnitude less deadly than 7Oct.
I think most stuff in this arena is a continuum. Bright lines would be easy, and nothing is easy here.
Re: bombing PR, to digress a bit, we were not in our best mindset at the time. Towards the tail end of, and after WW2 we had a mania for strategic bombing, as though that alone could succeed in the objectives of war. (Cite: The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes).
That was the era of 'if you make the yield bigger, you don't need to worry as much about accuracy.' We learned again and again how wrong that was over the coming decades.
I resist proportionality/scaling arguments. That's not how people or groups work; we are not in any kind of rational realm.
I'm not sure what you are pushing back on is with your analogy to our expedition into Mexico. Because I think that kind of action seemed largely a military-to-military one. Much less collateral than what I already think Israel is justified in carrying out here.
WWII is an excellent example - both WRT the evil on the other side, and the threat faced.
My thesis, fully supported by IHL , is that no amount of Palestinian military casualties is problematic, and civilian casualties in the course of attacking military targets are not problematic if the military advantage gained outweighs the civilian loss. This is codified in the 4GC, Rule 14.
If you have IHL that says otherwise, or that mentions "decency" cite it.
Palestinian military?
Saying decency doesn’t matter only law does is not covering yourself in glory.
But even under your definition above, a great deal of what we are debating is about military necessity of civilian casualties. That is in fact my entire concern.
Palestinian military? - are you under the impression that Hamas terrorist are not a military force? As another poster has already asked you - Have you not been watching the news for the last few weeks?
I quoted IHL to you. "Decency" doesn't appear in it. Not once, It never did.
Your concern, as voiced earlier, was - "Big numbers of deaths are relevant for establishing necessity" - a pile of steaming bullshit.
Bored Lawyer, what drives them wild is the very thought that Israel will, in fact, obliterate Hamas within Gaza. That Jews won't just die quietly. Or turn the other cheek. And that Israel is going to win this conventional war in gaza. That is what animates them.
I am a lot more focused on the day after. Because when the conventional war is over, there is still the question of what to do with an entire society stewed in a toxic brew of Jew hatred, with Judeocide as the main dish.
There also would be the continuing problem of Israel’s violent, selfish, superstition-addled, obsolete, parasitic, immoral, right-wing assholes.
Maybe you should write a book about your Palestinian Problem.
Ah Jason...the true friend to the friendless Hamas. Tell me Jason, did you just wander over here from Stormfront? Just asking for a friend.
Maybe Stormfront has some ethnic cleansing tips?
Do you think that trying to deliberately be the biggest piece of shit you can, and accusing everyone who doesn't heap praise upon your genocidal fantasies as being anti-Semitic is helpful to your alleged concerns about actual anti-Semitism?
I noticed you didn't have anything to say about Brett's remark, or the other linked remarks posted here by the likes of Musk or Carlson.
You aren't concerned about anti-Semitism; you're trying to spread it.
It seems insane to me, but maybe for you it's some kind of validation if you can make your own prophecy come true.
Poor crazy bigot.
What do you feel would have been an appropriate response to the October 7 attacks?
Turning the other cheek seems to be their answer.
Bullshyte -- it is irrelevant how may civilians get killed as long as you are meeting the three criteria. It is reasonable in terms of military objective, not bodycounts.
If Hamas wanted fewer civilian casualties, they could refrain from positioning military assets in civilian areas. They actually want to maximize civilian casualties, civilian dead are PR munitions to them, nothing more.
con_fuse9 2 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
So… 1200 Isrealis, mostly civilians, killed – that’s bad.
11,000 Palestinians, mostly civilians, killed with food cut off, water cut off, power cut off and access to medical care cut off – that shows “Israel Defense Forces’ (IDF) attacks on Hamas military targets in Gaza, thus far, almost certainly comply” with “international humanitarian law”.
con-fused - You are confused - of the 11,000 palestinians killed (assuming that number is reasonably correct) probably less than 1,000 are actually civilians in the true sense.
Ah, good old collective guilt. Antisemites everywhere would be proud.
Hamas is collectively guilty for the murders and various other atrocities they conspired to commit.
What do you think "actually civilians in the true sense" means?
I think he means that 90% of Gazan civilians are collectively guilty owing to their "culture."
I think he means that more than 90% of the dead were combatants or similarly active supporters of Hamas. I don't have good evidence that the number is that high, but I do believe combatants make up a very large fraction, probably a majority, of the actual deaths.
'I don’t have good evidence that the number is that high'
You have vibes. That's enough.
I think he means that 90% of Gazan civilians are collectively guilty owing to their “culture.”
Don't be obtuse, do we need to diagram the sentence? He meant deaths, as in 90% of the deaths (roughly 10K of 11K) were likely Hamas members (which would please me immensely if true, btw - that would mean Israel did magnificently in protecting gazans from Hamas during a war).
I don't know the actual percentage of Hamas members killed to civilians killed. No one does. It is more than 0, and less than 100%. That is all we know. I would like that number to be 100%, meaning only Hamas members die.
'(which would please me immensely if true, btw – that would mean Israel did magnificently in protecting gazans from Hamas during a war)'
You're a fantasist.
C_XY,
We can tease apart characteristics of the Gazan population.
Active Hamas fighters
Active Jamas political wing
Employees of the Hamas administration of Gaza and their economic beneficiaries
Civilian supporters and enablers of Hamas
Useful idiots
The active anti-Hamas resistance (like a small number) and their enablers.
Children below the age of reason.
There is certainly a lot of complicity with active Hamas murderers
This is collective guilt in service of rationalizing genocide.
You shouldn't do this.
'Nits breed lice.'
That is just so much bullshit S_0. You want to call the bulk of the population "innocents." They are no such thing. A large number are directly complicit and supportive of Hamas. That does not mean that the mere enablers are legitimate military targets. It does not justify genocide, which incidentally is NOT happening.
But it does undercut your claims that "11000 innocent Gazans have been killed in indiscriminate bombings." That is just Hamas propaganda. It is amazing how fast you drank their Kool-aid.
As C_XY has pointed out. If the bombing were indiscriminate, there would not be a building standing in Gaza city. Hamas has built a multi-billion dollar military infrastructure under the city by stealing the aid sent to Gazans. That infrastructure must be destroyed. It is inevitable that much of Gaza City will be destroyed. The IDF is doing what must be done.
In other contexts I find you all too ready to place blame dues to complicity/ So go try getting on your high hrse.
Apply this to Jews. It has been so applied, actually. It’s monstrous, no?
This is no different.
By that standard, how many Israelis deserve punishment for settler violence, settlements, annexation, dispossession, occupation, etc.?
What should the punishment be?
I may try to remember that "doing what must be done" line for the discussions -- mostly whining, pleading, blustering, and groveling from Israel's supporters -- after America terminates its subsidies (political, economic, military) for Israel's right-wing belligerence.
Sarcastro, when did "the Jews" build a multi-billion dollar military facility in-and-under civilian facilities, hide their troops among the civilian populace, and use their military to deliberately target foreign thousands of unarmed civilians in acts of terrorism?
So Hamas is extra bad, and thus collective guilt is now justified.
Got it, Toranth.
No, your crimes against strawmen are extra bad and you should feel guilty.
You seem to be fundamentally unable to actually address the arguments made by anyone here. The basic fact is that the two sides are not operating under identical circumstances, and your refusal to admit that brings you solidly in line with the rest of the antiisemites.
Incidentally, there was a time when "the Jews" did built an underground network of tunnels, and use the to perform attacks against the occupying power. It was a little place I'm sure you know nothing about, called the Warsaw Ghetto.
The argument for collective guilt is, as all such arguments, all hand waiving and ipse dixit.
You talked about Hamas in your post. Don was talking about the Gaza populating generally. You don’t get to be mad at me while you can’t nail down for yourself who you consider the two sides to be.
'But it does undercut your claims that “11000 innocent Gazans have been killed in indiscriminate bombings.”'
If they're not innocent they're guilty. So you're justifying the killing of civilians.
'If the bombing were indiscriminate, there would not be a building standing in Gaza city'
Doesn't follow. Seems like you can bomb plenty indscriminately without destroying every single building.
'The IDF is doing what must be done.'
IE killing thousands and thousands of civilians.
"This is collective guilt in service of rationalizing genocide."
No. This is Sarcastro misunderstanding someone else's comment.
Don’t be obtuse, do we need to diagram the sentence? He meant deaths, as in 90% of the deaths (roughly 10K of 11K) were likely Hamas members...
He didn't even say "Hamas," dumdum. That's not what he meant. He meant collective guilt.
You guys are so fixated on "never again" that you can't see how you've become the baddies.
If I'm counting correctly, you've managed to cram 4 antisemitic trope into that single comment. Congratulations!
I'm largely sympathetic to Israel in this conflict, but I was disappointed that the author handwaved the issue of whether Israel's present actions are proportional to the military advantage to be obtained. Maybe others have written on it but this author just says, "yep, it's proportional. Moving on."
But it's hard to assess whether Israel's present actions are proportional to the advantage gained when it's not clear (at least to me) what the ultimate objectives are. "Eliminating Hamas as a military and political force." OK, fine; I think pretty much any state would have that objective in Israel's circumstances. But what does that actually mean?
KILLING all the terrorists.
Every Moslem is a potential terrorist. Israel does not care about international law.
Every Roger S is a potential terrorist. You sound positively genocidal.
I took Roger to be accusing Israel of seeming genocidal. Was I wrong about that, was that a defense of Israel?
Man, if so, genocidal maniac #7 for sure. (And guess what everybody, all seven have been calling for the genocide of Palestinians.)
This is the guy who wants to deport US citizen Ilya Somin for bad speech.
No, I am not accusing Israel of anything. It is just doing what everyone expected it to do.
Ilya Somin probably wants to import the Palestinian Hamas terrorists into the USA.
That might actually be it, which is a problem. Who are "the terrorists"? Everyone involved in the October 7 atrocities? Every man and woman affiliated with Hamas? I doubt that killing either group is achievable within an acceptable amount of collateral damage or that doing so would be advantageous to Israel's security.
The only thing that needs to be proportionate in this case is what ever it takes to kill every hamas individual.
The only way to win the peace is to destroy the culture. The same way the peace was won in WW2 with Germany and Japan.
And the award for genocidal maniac #6 goes to... Tom.
Randal - you have repeatedly demonstrated a serious misunderstanding of history.
A good read for you would be Hansons book on the "Second World Wars" . You could develop a much better grasp of world geo political issues without continually embarrassing yourself with you irrational and ill informed comments.
The only way to win the peace is to destroy the culture.
This is your comment. You can explain it if you want. But I can guarantee that if I said something like "the only way to win peace in the Middle East is to destroy Israel's culture," it would be taken as antisemitic and genocidal.
And I’d feel very differently about someone in the 40s who said, “the way to establish a lasting peace is for the United States to eradicate Nazi Germany” than someone who said, “ the way to establish a lasting peace is for Nazi Germany to eradicate the United States.”
What a hypocrite I am!
a) You threw "Nazi" in there. It reads a lot differently as "eradicate Germany."
b) I didn't call Tom a hypocrite, I called him a genocidal maniac. Your argument appears to be that genocide is justified here. Are you genocidal maniac #8?
It does indeed!
Perhaps that might inspire you to consider whether your reference to Israel is truly a parallel to Tom for equal rights’s reference to Hamas. And whether destroying Hamas (or the Nazis) is in fact genocide.
(Hint: no.)
I've been waiting to hear more from Tom on the subject. In the meantime, where's your thinking? Does "destroy Israels's culture of entitled militancy" work for you?
Which of national, racial, religious, or ethnic group do you think Hamas is?
Well, one thing Hamas isn't is a culture.
I'll take that as a concession that "kill every hamas individual" is, in fact, not genocidal, just as Germans and Japanese were not victims of post-WW2 genocide.
I’ll take that as a concession that “kill every hamas individual” is, in fact, not genocidal
You are correct. "Destroy the culture" is what's genocidal.
See, this is the basic problem with multiculturalism. It's mired in a wrongful notion of the essential equality of cultures. As if culture were just funny clothing and exotic foods.
Culture is basically about how people think it appropriate to behave. Some cultures encourage people to behave in productive ways. Some in unproductive ways. And some cultures think it appropriate to behave in very bad ways indeed.
So some cultures NEED to be destroyed. For the sake of the people trapped in them.
Hey, if you paint a culture as evil, it's only right to destroy it. Like the Nazis did with the Jews, the Romany, the homosexuals, etc. Which means if the Jews are funding and supporting those evil cultures coming into the US, they must be doing so to destroy white culture, which is the Good Culture, promoting white genocide. Which means Jewish culture is also evil, since it wants to destroy white people. It always comes back to the Protocols.
Do you stop at Gaza, or are you also open to consideration to the cultures of of West Virginia, religious fundamentalism, Alabama, white supremacy, Idaho, Oklahoma, the American Catholic Church, South Carolina, white nationalism, Tennessee . . .
The best societies define what is productive behavior and forbid thinking that might support any other behavior.
It is amazing how the 'multiculturalism is bad' folks end up stumbling into dystopian novel levels of collectivism.
You are aware that it isn't legally or morally true that another state's atrocities against you permit you to do whatever you wish in response.
International law allows Israel to do what is necessary to secure the safety of their citizens and what is necessary to secure the peace.
go ahead and make an effort to justify Israel lack of authority under international law.
I doubt the phrase "whatever is necessary" appears in international law.
He of course meant "by any means necessary", which is automatically dispositive under customary leftist law.
It does not need to be. Israel has formally declared war on the quasi-state government of Gaza. Its destruction of the entire war-making machine of Hamas is a legitimate means of self-defense. For its part Hams has publicly declared that it wants a permanent state of war with Israel. That is what they are getting.
It has nothing to do with revenge. It has everything to do with "Never again."
Remember that “never again” stuff when the lifelong enemies being generated by Israel’s current conduct are predictably and understandably causing problems for Israel 30 and 40 years from now.
If there is an Israel 40 years from now.
How long do you guys expect mainstream America to continue to subsidize a right-wing, violent, superstition-soaked, immoral Israel?
I hope Israel change course. If not, I hope America leaves Israel by the side of the road.
What, specifically, would you like to see Israel do?
End religiously based, religiously discriminatory, and bigoted laws and practices
Stop electing corrupt, superstitious, deplorable right-wingers.
Stop engaging in dispossession, occupation, and annexation.
Stop engaging in immoral, violent, selfish conduct.
Stop imposing great, varied, and avoidable costs on my country, which enables them.
That would constitute a great start.
'It has everything to do with “Never again.”'
It's never been about that. You don't stop people dying violently by extending, perpetuating and escalating conflicts.
Akshually...
Take a gander at the concept of "reprisal" - it pretty much allows almost exactly that.
vryidni provided the answer:
The assessment is made from the POV of the military commander, but, the commander has to act reasonably. For example, if he orders a building bombed which he reasonably believes is a military operations post empty of civilians, and it turns out to be neither, he hasn’t violated the principle of proportionality. But if he willfully ignores reliable evidence that the civilian presence is high and the military value low, he’s violated the principle. In other words, it’s an objective-subjective standard, i.e., what a reasonable military commander would judge proportional from the POV of the actual commander.
For the author's argument to hold water, he must first prove that rooting out Hamas is the true goal and not a pretext. I follow what the State of Israel says in Hebrew. From statements and publications of the Israeli government, one must conclude that rooting out Hamas is a pretext for a darker goal of genocide. This goal is often said out loud by the highest officials of the Israeli government.
The only one's supporting genocide are Hamas and Iran.
Zionist aggression & attack on Palestinians since 1881 has been unrelenting. It is easy to create the prima facie case that asserts Zionists intended genocide since 1881 and put the plan into full operation in Dec 1947 in order to found the Zionist state by genocide. Because the international community banned genocide on Dec 11, 1946 and made this ban jus cogens, the mere existence of the Zionist state negates the international anti-genocide legal regime and undermines international law. Every state has an obligation to abolish the Zionist state and to end the genocide against Palestinians.
Was that the same international community that created Israel in 1947?
The international community did not create the Zionist state. The assertion is Zionist propaganda. In the aftermath of the Holocaust, the white states seem to have given Zionist colonial settlers a pass to commit genocide with impunity. The pass seems to be expiring, and the ban on genocide remains jus cogens. Genocide is an international (and US federal) capital crime without a statute of limitations. It is time to enforce black-letter against Zionists and the Zionist state.
The Aflac duck makes more sense than you do.
Jonathan - Your comments are totally disconnected from reality.
There is medicine for your delusions
Martillo is an antisemitic nutcase. Try to ignore him, unless you find his drivel entertaining.
If genocide is Israel’s goal, how are they so bad at it?
Why does being 'bad' at something mean you don't want it?
They're not bad at it, Israel's just constrained from acting. The US is one of those constraints, for better or worse.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909
Genocide means physically destroying a people. Not displacing, oppressing, or subjugating. Destroying. There is absolutely no evidence that Israel has ever sought to do this.
You didn't read my link above, where an Israeli minister floated nuking Gaza. I think that counts as destroying.
The article also said the Israeli government immediately disavowed the statement and bounced the minister from cabinet meetings.
FWIW I agree Israel nuking Gaza would be genocidal -- as well as suicidal, because they'd effectively be nuking their own country.
Physical destruction of a people in a territory does not require murdering individuals. Genocide is a crime against a group. Murder is a crime against an individual. Genocide means terminating the existence of the group in an area. Murder means terminating the existence of an individual. I am writing something obvious if one reads the International Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article 2(d) destroys the group without killing anyone.
Article 2(e) destroys the group without killing anyone.
When a Zionist attempts to redefine genocide to exculpate the Zionist movement and the Zionist state, he practically admits that the Zionist movement is a genocidal movement and that the Zionist state is genocidal state.
Zionism is an ideology of genocide.
The Zionist movement is a movement of genocide.
The Zionist state is a criminally genocidal state.
You must be the most committed Jew-hater on this site if you've learned Hebrew only to be better at hating on Jews. Wow!
A Zionist is not a Jew. A Zionist is post Judaism because Zionism murdered Judaism by transforming Judaism into a program of genocide.
Netanyahu: God never told you what happened to your descendants.
Moses: He told me enough. He told me you killed them.
Netanyahu: No. I am your legacy.
Moses: No. No. That’s not true. That’s impossible!
Netanyahu: Search the Torah. You know it to be true.
Moses: No!
From statements and publications of the Israeli government, one must conclude that rooting out Hamas is a pretext for a darker goal of genocide.
Citations (and no, Randal's link is does not suffice).
Please read Opinion | Israel's Gov't Tender Souls Who Call for an Ethnic Cleansing of Gaza. Haaretz English is white-washy. The Hebrew press reports much more gruesome material.
Firstly, ethnic cleansing is not genocide.
Secondly, the article requires me to give them my email (I won't do that). But the headline implies there are some voices in the Israeli government calling for ethnic cleansing. Perhaps Smotrich and Ben-Gvir (no surprises there). But as with Randal's link, that does not suffice.
I was not asked to provide evidence for a court -- something that I could do. I was asked for statements and publications from Zionist officials -- material that the article included.
How to know a Zionist lies. Check for breathing. Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism that is used so that a supporter of genocide can claim that he does not support genocide.
From Jan 1933 through the start of the Holocaust, the German Nazi regime perpetrated genocide. After the start of the Holocaust, the German Nazi regime perpetrated mass murder and genocide.
Denying the Gaza population food, water, and medical care are genocidal acts that are unnecessary to rooting out Hamas. Hamas prepared Oct. 7 for approximately a year or more and probably is well stocked with supplies.
Loving Israel is loving genocide (and mass murder).
Supporting Israel is supporting genocide (and mass murder).
Here is the definition of international terrorism from the US federal criminal code (18 U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions). Israel routinely perpetrates theses acts.
This video provides evidence of depraved strategy (dolus specialis) of genocide of the leadership of the Zionist state.
I have to wonder whether Samuel Estreicher is sufficiently connected to a Zionist organization or to the Zionist state that he has become a probable violator of 18 U.S. Code § 2339A - Providing material support to terrorists. § 2339A directly references 18 U.S. Code § 1091 - Genocide.
Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, 561 U.S. 1, 130 S. Ct. 2705, 177 L. Ed. 2d 355 (2010) teaches that speech in support of terrorists ( = perpetrators of genocide) is not protected and that someone can go to prison for a long time for expressing support for terrorists.
Eugene - if you're not able to recognize the bad faith in this piece, perhaps we should all begin to question your competence as a scholar.
What a fucking eqo you have.
And?
Fuck you, Simon.
A pleasure as always, Mr. Ed.
We anxiously await the creation of your blog on legal issues of the day, SimonP. Let us know when you started it.
Creating a legal blog isn’t all fun and games. It can lead to getting kicked off campus, uprooting your family, losing your credibility, revealing your bigotry for all to see, etc. etc.
You say that like I'd permit fucktards like you to comment at will.
Are you saying you would emulate Prof. Volokh and censor based on viewpoint (while prattling from a high horse about being a champion of freedom of expression)?
I hope you would be better than that.
Do let us know, SimonP, if you ever start a blog of your own. I'd say you sound like the perfect progressive already since you have a hard-on for censorship.
Some Conspirators and commenters have highly selective approaches censorship and antisemitism, governed mostly by partisanship.
Carry on, clingers. . . . so far as better Americans permit
I just have to laugh at how you fatheads think you have anything worth listening to. I am here on the VC because it is amusing to watch you all soil yourselves, and the commenting policy is sufficiently lenient that I don't have to worry about a banhammer when I call you a bunch of diarrheic fart-sniffers.
If it were ever a real question, I'd weigh the fun of that dynamic against whatever more intelligent conversation I'd prefer to cultivate, generally erring on the side of less "censorship" rather than more. The reality is that I'd have plenty of ways to tweak commenters like you in ways that don't shut down debate but absolutely enrage mental toddlers like yourself.
Leaving any issue of standing for a separate discussion, the argument made in the pending litigation against President Biden et al is far more persuasive. Authored withe the assistance of another faculty member in the NY university system, along with scholars from Wake Forest and Leiden University, the suit also provides a concise history of the various RxE (radical religious extremists, with "x" alternately being "I" or "J"). The complaint is available at https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2023/11/Complaint_DCI-Pal-v-Biden_w.pdf
It’s a weird complaint.
I have never seen an ATS complaint in which an official of the US government is named in his official capacity.
Is there a federal question when Congress gives specific enablement to the treaty and does not provide a statutory basis for a plaintiff to demand enforcement of the treaty if a plaintiff believes the president violates the treaty in some way?
Self-Defense
Two terms:
1) Self
2) Defense
Defending oneself from attack would be an explanation, but is it not conflated past solely defense into something wholly other ?
I say Self-Defense has been expanded, or is thought to be so, into whatever the so-called victim decides is appropriate to justify their own counter aggression.
Let's return to the word "defense" for some clarity. Defend - to strike - to drive danger or attack away from
Key words - drive away from
Syn - protect, shield, guard, safeguard - to keep secure from danger or against attack
I hold defense does not include the right to attack unless there is no other way to hold secure one's being from harm. Defending is an immediate response to danger and does not include counter attack when other means are available to protect. In short, Israel is attacking by going into Gaza just as the USA did by going into Afghanistan and neither is or was defending themselves. Accepting the notion of current and past responses to violence does not solve the violence other than an immediate need to lash back regardless of further consequences of one's ( childish ) current actions.
So, let's return to "drive away from" - deflect or neutralize seem respectable other terms - deflecting drives away and neutralizing absorbs force. But, there's that pesky first word - to strike - except it does not indicate, or hold true to, counter attacking, but rather the means to deflect or absorb attack.
Noscitur has asked a number of times on here 'what would you have Israel do in response to October 7?'
I don't think this is a required question to push back on what you *don't* think Israel should do.
-Indiscriminate bombing
-Cutting off supplies to the entire area
-Destroying buildings without military need (e.g. the parliament)
I think a ceasefire now would do more harm than good, causing more deaths in the long term by letting Hamas basically off the hook.
But I'm also not going to ignore the weight of press coverage as all secretly working for Jewish death. Nor am I going to say Hamas is so bad that Israel cannot be held responsible for the actions they take.
I'm not sure what Israel can do, especially given our own failures with similar victory conditions.
But I don't want it to come out of this worse than it came in, either practically or morally. So I will continue to point out that it looks like Israel is not doing a great job restraining the impulse for broad-based revenge against Palestine.
Turning this into a bloody transition into a new status quo worse for all parties is very much on the table, and righteousness does not suddenly make such an outcome good.
Blockades have been military tactics for centuries. No issues there. As far as electricity...Hamas has had a very long time to set up an infrastructure and opted not to. Israel supplied it for free for years. They were not required to do so and will not do so further. That is on Hamas.
Military and governmental need. Hamas is the government of the country. Their parliament building is an exceptionally justifiable target.
And there is zero evidence of "indiscriminate bombing"
Kevin Drum said this well: "Israel is badly in the wrong to have cut off supplies to Gaza. Regardless of how loathsome Hamas is, civilians should have access to food, water, power, and medicine at a bare minimum. I think we all understand that providing this stuff means that Hamas will have access to it as well, but that's hardly a conundrum unique to this war. Israel needs to act with basic human decency even if it's hard."
This is not just a regular blockade.
Of course above you said all suffering in this conflict is automatically the fault of Hamas, so your morality is so pinched I don't know why this would bother you.
1) Not sure why you'd think Kevin Drum has any credibility on this topic. I'm sure his BA in journalism from CSU-LB was quite demanding, as all "classes for washed-out English majors" tend to be, but he is hardly a source of intelligent commentary. Never has been and still is not.
2) The lacking of things for civlians is 100% Hamas fault. You know who ISN'T lacking? Hamas. You know who has plenty of fuel? Hamas. Medicine? Hamas. Food? Hamas.
3) No country on Earth is obligated to provide anything for free to any other country. That is absolute balderdash at best. If Hamas decided to rely on Israel for all of their necessities, then attacking the country benevolently providing it is an incredibly idiotic idea. Israel has no obligation to ease the suffering of a genocidal group looking to kill all of them.
HAMAS is their government. Been so for 15 or so years. They've had time to work on these issues and decided to, INSTEAD, build tunnels and stockpile things for attacks. My empathy for the "Palestinians" is basically nil.
'No country on Earth is obligated to provide anything for free to any other country.'
Unless it's billions in military aid.
'My empathy for the “Palestinians” is basically nil.'
If you want reasons to justify killing thousands of people, you'll always find them.
The list of people conservatives want to treat like dirt — gays, Blacks, liberal Jews, women, agnostics, transgenders, atheists, educators, Muslims, drag queens, scientists, librarians, etc. — now includes Palestinians.
Good thing bigoted, uneducated right-wingers are the culture war’s losers in modern, improving America.
And the government that INITIATED the conflict and intentionally placed military targets amongst civilians IS the ultimate blame for all of the problems.
If I shoot at a cop and then grab a civilian as a human shield and they die in a shootout, their death is on ME for putting them in the situation in the first place.
Understand that when this is over...Israel is unlikely to ever supply power et al to "Palestinians" ever again. And they should not do so.
You are laying out a rationalization for genocide and blaming Hamas.
I am glad Israel is nowhere near in as shitty a place as you are.
Who STARTED the conflict?
Seriously, WHY is Israel even IN Gaza right now?
Hamas.
They killed 1200 or so completely innocent civilians on 10/7. They have also said they will repeat said attacks indefinitely.
Who the heck else is there to blame?
You're pretty thick if you think this all started last month.
They don’t become Volokh Conspiracy fans with legitimate education, sound judgment, good character, smart decisions, admirable conduct, love if modern America, or a strong relationship with the reality-based world.
Why do you keep falsely equating acceptance of civilian casualties in military operations with deliberate extermination of a civilian population?
Even someone with your intelligence should be able to understand that these are two different concepts.
Toranth, there are plenty of places in these comments where I accept civilians causalities as a regrettable inevitability.
damikesc has made it quite clear he thinks Israel wiping out the Palestinians would be Hamas' fault.
I get how you would think that's a strawman, but he's that insane.
No, for the past several weeks, you've ridden your imaginary 'moral' high-horse, pretending to give a damn about Palestinian civilians. You've repeatedly cited Hamas propaganda and blatant lies in order to demand that Israel stop doing anything. You've misunderstood and misquoted and flat out lied about the traditional laws of war in regards to civilian deaths. And you've lied about what other posters have said, constantly, in order to attack them for their willingness to support Israel. You've killed more strawmen that either Hamas or Israel has killed people!
While I don't remember every post damikesc has made over the past month, I don't remember him advocating for the deliberate killing of Gaza civilians. If you think he has, please link it for me - I'll happily admit I'm wrong if you can provide that evidence.
But it certainly does not justify what you just did here, and what you've done elsewhere in this thread - to deliberately equate people willing to accept civilian causalities with the deliberate genocide of those civilians.
So, I'll ask it again: Why do you keep falsely equating acceptance of civilian casualties in military operations with deliberate extermination of a civilian population?
Don't try to distract with what someone else said; don't try to distract with how 'insane' you think someone is. Just answer the question about your own actions: Why do you keep falsely equating acceptance of civilian casualties in military operations with deliberate extermination of a civilian population?
I’m not saying civilian casualties are unacceptable. Read my OP to this comment thread ffs.
This thread has damikesc doing what I accuse him of. I reply to his insanity here.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/11/17/prof-samuel-estreicher-nyu-on-the-laws-of-war-as-to-the-hamas-israel-war/?comments=true#comment-10324210
'Why do you keep falsely equating acceptance of civilian casualties in military operations with deliberate extermination of a civilian population?'
It's just a question of degree, and what the military force thinks it can get away with.
'Why do you keep falsely equating'
In fact the military operations kill orders of magnitude more.
"This is not just a regular blockade."
How is it different?
The notion that a country must provide food, water, electricity, etc to it's opponent, in war in general or even specifically in a siege is a new one. You are free to argue for changing ethics, but just stating it as a conclusion isn't persuasive.
=====
And on a practical note, I think that supplying electricity or food or whatever is going to be fraught with difficulty ... the fighting is going to be cutting power lines, piping, etc. And what do you do - show up on the front line with a truck of food, waving a white flag, asking for a ceasefire long enough to distribute it? Just air drop it? Even if you wanted to, it seems impractical.
The issue is not the enemy, the issue is all the non enemies.
Building or block? Hard to argue, At the scale of the entire region, as governmental policy, it hits different. It looks like you are targeting more than Hamas. Or at least don’t much care about the non Hamas people.
There are no bright lines or ratios here. War is a dirty business. But it is not one where moral license is infinite. At some point you gotta ask you have surpassed the number of civilians worth killing or immiserate to make one Hamas fighter’s job harder.
And that kind of who cares they are all guilty somewhat is what I fear from Israel. Because that is how you lose the war, lost the peace, and lose your moral soul.
"The issue is not the enemy, the issue is all the non enemies."
Generally speaking, the citizens of a country you are at war with are all 'the enemy', whether they side with their government or not.
For example, in WWII Operation Outward tried to cut off power to as many Germans as possible, irrespective of whether those individual Germans supported the Nazis or not.
I don’t think we did it in WW2 is proof of morality. We went deep into targeting civilians directly by the end. Doesn’t mean we weren’t the good guys, does mean that doesn’t make our actions morally untouchable.
And everyone, us included, makes a distinction between the civilians, military, and government of our adversaries. Especially nowadays with these asymmetric wars of hearts and minds. Enemy isn’t a completely wrong word to apply, but be aware how expansive a definition you are choosing and stick with it.
"I don’t think we did it in WW2 is proof of morality."
I agree - but it wasn't just us in WWII. It's everybody in every war.
Flip the argument: can you give an example of a war where Side A kept supplying food/water/power/whatever to Side B? Or didn't do everything in their power to disrupt Side B's supply of those things?
This is a pretty unique situation, but I’m also not a big military history buff.
The answer is no country in human history has ever done that.
Literally none.
Again, World War II was the impetus for the formation of the UN, the formalization of the laws of war, and the first efforts to create some kind of international tribunal for trying war crimes. You assholes need to stop citing actions of the Allied powers during the war as justification for anything and everything Israel is doing now. You're basically just admitting that Israel is engaged in actions that are so bad they once shocked the world into trying to stop nations like Israel from doing what they're doing now.
As long as we're talking about WWII - we would do well to remember that the gas chambers in Nazi-controlled territory weren't their first choice for dealing with Jews. What preceded that "final solution" was several years of displacement and expropriation aimed at the Jewish population. So, the next time you feel like chortling that Israel doesn't seem to be very good at genocide, you might take a closer look at how they're tiptoeing towards their own "final solution" in Gaza, and leading you by the nose every step of the way.
"Palestine" has had growing population for years and years.
There are, to this day, fewer Jews in Europe than there was in 1939. The population has not recovered in 84 years.
Tell me more about the similarities.
I might have missed Hamas making sure not to kill thousands in their butchering of over 1200 on 10/7.
I'm not going to demand Israel do what Hamas refused to do.
Thwen you're no different from Hamas.
I think a ceasefire now would do more harm than good, causing more deaths in the long term by letting Hamas basically off the hook.
This is irresponsible parroting of a talking point.
There is a lot of talk lately about so-called "humanitarian pauses." We can also talk about "cessation of hostilities," which is where both sides stop attacking each other, and then a "ceasefire," which is a more formal agreement between the warring parties to cease attacking one another.
The "no ceasefire" rhetoric really just means "no end to war until Hamas is utterly annihilated," which is much easier said than done, to say nothing of the enormous civilian toll it implies. It means, in essence, the total displacement of Gazan civilians out of the territory, and utter destruction of all Gazans remaining within it, and likely has similar implications for the West Bank, as well. It's just senseless, jingoistic talk.
So if you want, instead, some kind of stable, peaceful resolution, where Gazans are still permitted to live in the territory, you have to talk about ceasefire and how to get there. And yes, that means at some point acknowledging that you have to deal with whoever's left of Hamas. They are the warring party that must agree to a cessation of hostilities.
Can Hamas be trusted? No, but neither can Palestinians trust Israel. This is the classic problem whenever you want any war to come to an end. You make a deal with your enemy, and you structure the deal in such a way that neither side has any interest in breaching it. All of this talk about retribution and annihilating Hamas is just to satisfy bloodlust. It's not going to bring peace, unless the kind of peace you're talking about is the peace of oblivion.
You know how else you can get there (an eventual resolution, maybe peaceful)? By defeating and annihilating Hamas. No need for a cease fire. There is absolutely nothing to discuss with Judeocidal terrorists aside from how to issue them a one-way ticket on the Paradise Train.
Post war, the biggest question is what to do with an entire society who imbibed Judeocide with their mother's milk. We know what does not work policy-wise (disengagement, conflict management, two states, Oslo). Time to do something very different.
'Post war, the biggest question is what to do with an entire society who imbibed Judeocide with their mother’s milk'
And if they didn't they're imbibing plenty right now with every bomb dropped.
Israel has given "Palestine" numerous opportunities to do the right thing.
They have failed to do so every single time.
Might be time to review a different stratefy.
Total surrender. We did not find a need to "work" with the remaining Nazis to govern Germany. Did not need to work with the Imperial forces to run Japan.
Natnayahu supported Hamas.
Of course, Israel must exercise its right of self-defense in conformity with international humanitarian law (IHL), also known as the laws of war or armed conflict.
These laws of war are defined, but what about this right of a nation to self-defense? To expand on NvEric's comment above, the right to self-defense that nations claim to have is far more broad than an individual's legal right to self-defense.
A claim of self-defense in U.S. law, and in most western countries, as far as I know, is an affirmative defense when using force against another person. The general principle is that force or violence is justified to protect oneself or a third person from imminent harm. The linked article goes on to discuss questions state laws try to address to evaluate whether the force or violence is justified in particular cases. Those particulars can be difficult to evaluate in practice, but their are clear limits to a person's right to self-defense:
The harm one aims to prevent must be imminent.
The force or violence used must be reasonable to the threat. That is, it must be limited to the amount of force required to remove the threat.
I think we could all find plenty of examples of nations claiming self-defense when these conditions are not even close to being met. Rather, the thinking and arguments are more often along the lines of "This guy hit me. I better hit him back or he'll think he can get away with that and hit me again sometime in the future." Or even, "This guy hit me. I better rip his arms off so he can never do that again." Or even worse, "This guy is talking smack, and he clearly wants to hit me, so I better hit him first."
Also, none of that even addresses the consequences to civilians that are not the ones that threatened or attacked the nation claiming self-defense. The laws of war are supposed to cover that, but as far as I can tell, the laws of war are silent on whether the war was justified in the first place. Thus, a nation inflicting great suffering on a civilian population during a war could be completely adhering to the laws of war and still morally wrong for all of that suffering if the war itself was unjust. But the opposite is not true. A nation inflicting great suffering on civilians by violating the laws of war is not off the hook just because their war is justified.
I summarize my point as this: Whatever "realpolitik" arguments a nation might make for its military actions in war that harm civilians in other territories, self-defense is only going to be the correct term if it meets the standard accepted criteria for self-defense: An imminent threat and force limited to removing the threat.
I'd also state that Hamas not wearing uniforms, in quite open defiance of the "laws of war", makes them even more responsible for the suffering of the civilians there.
Unless you plan to travel to Israel to try to defend it after America's modern mainstream stops subsidizing Israel's belligerent right-wing assholes, you're just another all-talk, deplorable, worthless clinger.
Lawyers and Professors trying to use words to fight actual physical wars. Ridiculous and self-focused.
No one on either side will listen to you. Therefore you have nothing to offer.
Professors: [words]
Observers: [words]. "We condemn [one of the sides]…."
Israel: Good point! I guess we will let Hamas cut the heads off our babies every couple years.
Hamas: Good point! I guess we will give up the holy war we’ve been fighting for 70+ years. Three or four generations now.
This is exactly the hard-line far right attitude that got us to this point.
Define "self defense".
Does it mean finally removing Hamas or is it just a tit for tat response?
No one. It's a strawman, set up in order to conflate it with this howler: "Israel Defense Forces' (IDF) attacks on Hamas military targets in Gaza, thus far, almost certainly comply with these principles [of international humanitarian law]."
Francesca Albanese, for one
"Who makes that claim?"
Russia's ambassador to the UN.
U.N. special rapporteur Francesca Albanese, for one.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/outrage-over-un-officials-claim-that-israel-doesnt-have-right-to-self-defence-against-hamas-101700210595261.html
why wouldn’t they just say “it’s mostly active Hamas fighters?”
Because that is not a factor in determining necessity under IHL. It is not a numbers game or a proportion game.
And what steps do you think they could have taken in response to October 7?
It's a propaganda & PR game. If they thought 90% of the casualties were Hamas, they’d tout it.
But anyway, if that’s what Tom meant, he’d have just said “civilians,” not “actual civilians in the true sense.”
Ah, yes, this tiresome sealioning response.
It is admittedly difficult to formulate an effective military strategy for combating Hamas while minimizing civilian casualties, from the other side of the planet, when so much of what Israel says about Gaza is just straight-up fabrication. But it should suffice to say, given what little we can actually say we know about it, that Israel has shown a consistent pattern of exaggerating the military value of the targets it strikes, lying to the press about its efforts to minimize casualties, and simply not explaining any of the strategic calculations it is making when it, say, launches a missile at a refugee camp or demanding that half of the population relocate from where it is currently pointing its military apparatus.
The OP claims that the IDF "almost certainly" has been complying with international humanitarian law in its attacks on Gaza. Setting aside actions like cutting it off from aid, fuel, water, electricity, and food, and forcibly displacing more than half of its population internally, and setting aside what several Israel political and military officials themselves have been saying about the campaign, we have zero basis whatsoever for that kind of confidence, and a fair amount of evidence that Israel is being, at the very least, cavalier when it comes too international humanitarian law.
It is bonkers seeing apologists like you in the comments. You do not have to consume much Israeli media, or even much mainstream American media, to understand how preposterous that claim is. Yet there's this whole bubble of Israel defenders who pretend that they've heard nothing about the conflict since 10/7 itself.