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"Judges Have Long Deferred to Academe. That's Changing."
A very interesting article by Prof. Steve Sanders (Indiana), who is also an Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and a scholar of sexual orientation and the law; it's in the Chronicle of Higher Education, but also available without the need for registration here. An excerpt:
During the Red Scare of the 1950s, college faculty members were lauded by Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter as being among the "priests of our democracy." As campuses were roiled by political controversies in 1967, the Court invalidated a New York loyalty oath and underscored that "[t]he essentiality of freedom in the community of American universities is almost self-evident." More recently, in Grutter v. Bollinger, a 2003 case upholding some forms of affirmative action, the Court said "universities occupy a special niche in our constitutional tradition" and thus were owed "a constitutional dimension … of educational autonomy."
A much different attitude prevails on the Court today. When Harvard and the University of North Carolina argued that their affirmative action practices were entitled to the same deference the Court had shown in Grutter, Chief Justice John Roberts's response was sarcastic, even mocking. In his opinion last June in Students for Fair Admissions v. President and Fellows of Harvard College, Roberts, writing for six justices, laid out a series of objections to the universities' admissions practices, then twisted the knife: "The universities' main response to these criticisms is, essentially, 'trust us.'"
The Court's message was clear: universities, we don't trust you….
Unfortunately, universities are giving courts more reasons to question whether their policies are based on favoritism or politics rather than neutral and objective criteria. In the post-George Floyd era, they are embracing political projects under banners like "social justice" and "anti-racism." By remaking themselves into institutions devoted to progressive politics, universities weaken their moral and legal claims to judicial deference.
Activist politicization is not the entire problem. In other recent high-profile decisions, courts have demonstrated that they do not understand the purposes of academic freedom or the norms of academic governance. All these developments threaten the relative latitude courts have long granted colleges and universities to manage their own affairs….
"Political correctness" in academe is nothing new. But what is new is that universities are now officially pledging allegiance to particular orthodoxies and political projects. Since Floyd's murder by police, it has become almost de rigueur for universities to declare that their missions now include commitments such as social justice and anti-racism. [Examples omitted. -EV] …
When the AAUP was founded, the agenda at some colleges was still set by church sponsors or plutocratic trustees…. The 1915 Declaration [of Principles] spoke dismissively of institutions that "subsidized the promotion of opinions held by persons, usually not of the scholar's calling" over "unrestricted research and unfettered discussion." It further warned, "Genuine boldness and thoroughness of inquiry … are scarcely reconcilable with the prescribed inculcation of a particular opinion upon a controverted question." Yet today, as social justice has become its own form of both religion and big business, numerous major universities have set aside pots of money — and sometimes entire "research" centers — to fund outcome-oriented work that advances the progressive political agenda.
For some scholars, all this goes hand-in-hand with abandoning the pretense of scholarly detachment. In the wake of Floyd's murder, my university's history department announced that its faculty members saw their jobs as not just documenting and interpreting history, but participating in the making of history. According to these faculty, "the work of our profession — researching, studying, teaching, and discussing the past — has long been as much an act of advocacy and belief as it is one of inquiry." "To be a historian," they claimed, "has always meant to be an activist — whether that 'action' pushed toward democratic change or fortified existing inequities of power and wealth." …
When professors declare themselves to be activists and advocates, then when disputes reach the courthouse — a contested tenure case, for example — there is no longer a rationale for judges to defer to their "academic" judgment. When academic judgment no longer means the apolitical application of rigorous analytical frameworks, then there is little reason for courts to treat universities or their faculties as anything other than ordinary litigants seeking to maximize their own interests.
***
In response to left-wing politicization of the academy, the right has responded with its own politicization — and in these battles, the right often brings the brute force of government power. In Florida, Gov. Ron DeSantis's policies to censor faculty in teaching about race and gender have so far been blocked by federal courts. Those are good decisions, but they demonstrate that where educational policies are plainly political and not academic, then ordinary legal standards and precedents can and should prevail.
The sound court decisions in Florida notwithstanding, universities also are vulnerable to a rise in conservative judicial activism. [Details omitted. -EV] …
A very interesting article, which is much worth reading in its entirety.
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In the 1950's academicians were the product of WWII. It was the 60s before they started being the product of communist propaganda
America has improved, strengthened, and progressed greatly since the 1950s. People who dislike modern America and pine for illusory “good old days” are losers.
No, giving marriage licenses to people who think the right place to blow a load is into another man's nether regions is not "progress."
The right-wing law professors who operate this blog will provide a pass on your bigotry because you are a fellow clinger and the target audience of this cowardly, bigot-hugging blog.
Just don’t say anything bad about conservatives (Volokh) or about Israel’s right-wing belligerence (Bernstein) and you can bigot as much as you like at the Volokh Conspiracy.
In times past, you would undoubtedly have expressed similar views when it came to mixed race hetero marriages. Being able to recognise that other people should not be bound by your religious conception of rights is progress, though not every cracker Torquemada would agree with me
Um, he's a troll. He'll express those views on interracial marriages now.
I don't have an issue with interracial marriages per se, as long as the IQs of the two people getting married are not very different.
For example, a white woman marrying a Chinese man is not likely to create low quality children. A white woman marrying a low IQ black man is.
Race is a social concept. Tab A or Slot B is a biological fact.
Gender is also a social concept. Society doesn't really deal with 'hey you got a wang or no?' they deal with the more amorphous concept of what gender are you.
Well, historically they dealt with "you gonna hunt/plow the fields/round up domesticated animals/defend the tribe or are you gonna help replace the population?"
That tracks pretty closely with "You got a wang or no?"
You don’t need a wang for any of that.
Also since we're no longer hunter gatherers, dunno why that would matter for nowadays.
Sigh. Having a wang correlates pretty closely with traits that you do need for those things. I mean, do you think it's coincidence that we started letting the wangless fight in combat at around the time we developed things like Apache helicopters?
And our conception of sex doesn't change overnight. We are now in the process of decoupling social expectations around sex from the way we needed to organize the economy around sex until recently.
A diverse set of tribal cultures around the world managed to thrive while simultaneously recognizing gender fluidity. You appear to be assuming that our own cultural traditions are true for all cultures and are based in some sort of natural truth rather than just our own cultural assumptions.
(Where "our" is problematic in a country made up of native and immigrant cultures that don't share the majority cultural view on sexuality and gender.)
Strong correlation can create social constructs. Rather my point about Ed's statement being off the mark.
And social constructs are not immutable, as you note.
"I mean, do you think it’s coincidence that we started letting the wangless fight in combat at around the time we developed things like Apache helicopters?"
More, "around the time our leaders stopped caring if we won wars", but, nope, not a coincidence.
And we still "need" to organize the economy around sex. We just stopped doing it anyway, which is why every advanced economy has below replacement reproduction rates. Because it didn't stop being needed...
History is full of the wangless winning wars, Brett. Don't be such a knee-jerk.
"History is full of the wangless winning wars"
I'm canvassing my mental files to try and think of an example, without success.
(I have no prob with women warriors ... lotsa jobs they can do, from fighter pilot (BALD-D!) to radar operator to whatever ... but history full of examples of women winning wars??????)
Well, the history in his head is full of them, anyway.
I was thinking of Boudica Zenobia and Tomyris.
But come on, there are plenty of others if you look. History is long and weird.
"I was thinking of Boudica Zenobia and Tomyris."
I'm thinking that the various warrior queens led armies that were predominantly male.
Eisenhower didn't win the war, his army did. And I agree women can be fine generals, but historically wars have been won by overwhelmingly male armies. Given the weapons involved until very recently, sexual dimorphism mattered. Perhaps with phasers that will change, but TiP specified "historically".
Boudica lost her war, BTW, as did Zenobia.
We usually say the leaders win the war. If you took it as an army of warrior women like Amazons, that is not what I meant.
There may be women soldier cohorts, I just don't know them offhand.
“ We usually say the leaders win the war.”
Perhaps, but that doesn’t make any sense in this context.
Ah thus speaks an understanding thoughtful leftist. Bull, I teach at a university and more time is spent on peoples feelings then on learning. what is taught will bring us back to the dark ages rather than a brighter future as it is a rejection of modern civilization for some earlier time that never existed and control by our so called elites who really want to be our overlords.
Wild guess: You do not teach standard English.
Which is why the intelligentsia is so on the side of women voting. Sensible people realize that women have no business in positions of power, voting or anything else of import.
And the Star Wars prequels were the best!
Oh, sorry. I thought we were posting idiotic outrage troll things on a chan somewhere.
Not trolling. I sincerely believe that the West is in a downward trajectory, and that the left is destroying it. It is able to do so because it has the support of women, blacks, Hispanics, and other people who have shown no ability to run societies.
The fact that women have died on the abortion hill is the best proof of this.
If you're not trolling you've fallen into a very dark rabbit hole.
"and in these battles, the right often brings the brute force of government power."
As opposed to the voices of elected officials chosen by the majority of voters? Professor, is "democracy the brute force" if your views differ? Not well considered posting, shreds any thought of unbiased publication.
You don't think government can do brute force in a democracy?
Look into soft power sometime.
'Can do' is not the same as 'only does.'
All government is force. Elections are simply a way of deciding who gets to direct it.
Look into soft power sometime.
I'm not sure how that's actually a reply; Squirrelloid is exactly right here. All government IS force. Force, or rather the ability to get away with using force, is the only thing government brings to the table. Absolutely anything else, you can find without going to government.
Force is government's hammer, and you know what everything looks like when all you have is a hammer...
People sometimes like to follow a designated leader just for it's own sake; no need for force or threat of force.
Or if not for the person, for group solidarity reasons. Check out the things people will do to follow a flag.
IMO, "sometimes" is doing way too much work in that sentence for it to say anything useful.
And the threat of force is always there in the background, as exemplified by the actual, daily use of force in the foreground. That confounds this sort of simplistic assessment that people who meekly follow along are doing so because they "like to" rather than not wanting to be on the wrong side of that force.
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/06/23/most-government-action-rests-on-the-threat-of-serious-force/
I constantly see a willful blindness to the fact that public schools (university or K-12) ARE the government. I can't count how often I see stories about government "taking over" schools, or government set up in opposition to schools somehow. There's a high amount of gaslighting going on.
You must be blind if you don't see government in opposition to schools in Florida.
Turns out government at different scales can be very different.
Constitutionally, there are only two levels of government here: Federal and state. (Florida isn't a home rule state.)
So, he's right: There is only the state government here, trying to bring its own rebellious appendage back under control.
tkamenick's comment is not about constitutional definitions.
Your more narrow thesis is probably legally correct, though there does seem to be some foundation for academic freedom to implicate 1A rights.
Legally correct does not mean cool and good. The institution of schools has fundamentally different equities from the partisan politics of the statehouse.
Rolling with populist state-level heavy-handed reaching down because educated people vote wrong is not going to end well for anyone. As is the case for all spite-based populist policies.
"The institution of schools has fundamentally different equities from the partisan politics of the statehouse."
That's all well and good to say, but the academy's special status was critically dependent on their not taking sides in political wars. Once they abandoned that neutrality, any special status was dependent on their allies being in power.
That was a stupid mistake, if you assume the people responsible for it had any interest in the long term survival of the institution. More likely they were just thinking in terms of what a useful weapon it was.
Until I see more, I do not accept that there ever was a special status.
Schools have never been neutral, they have always been political.
The new part is the GOP is nowadays willing to roll authoritarian and reach down to directly regulate for no other reason than to get partisan political scalps.
"The new part is the GOP is nowadays willing to roll authoritarian and reach down..."
Gotta love the Orwellian use of authoritarian, to refer to the people controlling the government.
You guys have no problem being authoritarian when it comes to keeping prayer and religion out of schools.
Democratic and authoritarian are utterly orthogonal tracks.
I've never seen you back away from any potential use of government power to own the libs.
authoritarian when it comes to keeping prayer and religion out of schools.
Constitutional rights are authoritarian now.
You're so twisted you really do think freedom is slavery.
"Democratic and authoritarian are utterly orthogonal tracks."
Yes, that's why it's Orwellian for you to say that it's authoritarian for elected officials to control the actions of government officials. Please try to keep up.
"Constitutional rights are authoritarian now."
Only by your reasoning, Sarcastro.
"trying to bring its own rebellious appendage back under control"
Anthony was unable to do that; it's why he lost to Caesar.
Have you actually read Academe? It is pure leftist drivel with the overriding thought that academics should be differed to because they are "educated" and the rest are not. With little truth in that thought.
I'm starting to figure this guy might not be a professor at a legitimate university.
Calvin or Wheaton? Hillsdale or Ave Maria? Liberty or Regent? Franciscan or Ouachita Baptists? Bob Jones or Oral Roberts? Maybe, but probably not even at those shitty schools.
The livelihood of universities - even private ones - rests squarely on the brute force of government power in recent decades, since they are funded with trillions of dollars of government money.
Taxes versus heavy handed regulation.
I agree both involve force. But it is the unique myopia of the libertarian to argue the two as equal impositions on liberty.
The dipshit ignores the left doing so at every turn because he sees nothing wrong with leftwing authoritarianism.
"universities, we don't trust you…." ... and right you are.
Education-disdaining clingers are the worthless, inconsequential roadkill of modern American progress.
This guy doesn't seem to mention conservative-controlled campuses (or professors) much when talking about partisanship, bias, scholarly detachment, research centers, funding sources, etc. -- does this provide a hint of what might be found by pointing a Google-compatible device at "Steve Sanders Federalist Society."
If the assertion is that Republican judges and courts don't think much of institutions that prefer reason, inclusiveness, modernity, the reality-based world, science, tolerance, and academic freedom, Prof. Sanders probably has a point.
George Floyd's 'murder' ie death by drug overdose.
I just don't understand what possesses you to lie about this. What do you get out of that?
>>I just don’t understand what possesses you
common sense. The lethal amount of fentanyl in his system. The fact that he died of a cardiac arrest which how a fentanyl overdose kills you. But America was getting antsy from the COVID lockdowns and needed to vent its rage and frustration in some way like how armies of flagellants or marches against Wall Street were created in response to previous eras of unrest and uncertainty. And the fad of these times are social justice.
So they glommed on to a case of a man that they wouldn’t have otherwise pissed on to put out a fire. And a few police officers (who I have little sympathy for but I doubt sprang out of bed that day suddenly deciding they wanted to kill a black man) were made into the sacrificial pigs. So the country or at least a part of it could have their big emotional release.
A man was sitting on his porch holding a waterhose and was gunned down by the police for this crime. In another world this would be the landmark cultural touchstone story and he would be elevated to the level of secular saint with murals and statues and memorials all over the country and his name immortalized forever in the history books. Logically its even worse and even more deserving of attention since he did absolutely nothing wrong initially and was met immediately with clearly intentional lethal force. But of course since he was white his death means nothing and he’s forgotten. Funny how things work.
(1) You don't have any.
(2) "Common sense" is not actual expertise, anyway.
(3) That doesn't explain why you're lying, which was the question I posed.
Which is a meaningless statement, since many things, including a gunshot, can cause cardiac arrest. What's relevant is what caused the cardiac arrest, and that was positional asphyxia. Again, what do you get out of lying about this?
David, read the autopsy. Floyd was a dead man walking.
You know who "read the autopsy"? The jury.
The jury read the mob -- they knew the consequences of an acquittal.
> (2) “Common sense” is not actual expertise, anyway.
Oh you’re one of those people who believe covid magically doesn’t infect those at BLM rallies but does at conservative gatherings because ‘the experts’ say so. Well I cant believe I have to explain this to a presumably grown adult man and a member of a group that generally claims that religion is ridiculous. but life generally isn’t some fairy tale where you can trust some omniscient figure to tell you every single step to take. ‘The experts’ are humans just like anyone else subject to political and other pressures. People have to use logic and evidence rather than simply deferring automatically to ‘authorities’ on everything. I doubt you ‘trust the experts’ who come to conclusions you don’t like or in regimes you don’t care for.
>Which is a meaningless statement, since many things
Correct so decreeing its must be because of the hold is improper when the evidence points to other things like the drugs in his system.
No physical indications of strangling or the like (No bruising, etc), and a lethal dose of fentanyl in his system, in the autopsy. Plus evidence from when he was first approached by the police, and several times after that, of opioid OD, including foaming at the mouth and breathing difficulties.
Another Internet medical expert, though at least it's better than when you kept claiming that the COVID vaccine wasn't approved for a year after it was.
What is alveoli function?
The alveoli pick up the incoming energy (oxygen) you breathe in and release the outgoing waste product (carbon dioxide) you exhale. As it moves through blood vessels (capillaries) in the alveoli walls, your blood takes the oxygen from the alveoli and gives off carbon dioxide to the alveoli.
It was the fluid in the lungs as noted by the foaming from the mouth which prevented the proper functioning of the Alveoli to exchange the co2 in the blood stream with oxygen. Floyd's fate was sealed approximately 2 minutes before the knee was placed on his back. Even with prompt medical attention, Floyd had 3-4 minutes with substantially reduced oxygen in the blood flow to the brain such that even if he had lived, he would be permanently impaired.
Ahh, Alveoli, my “Bailiwick” Floyd George died from Asphyxiation, not Drowning (there’s a difference) Remember it this way, Drowning is a form of Asphyxiation, but not all Asphyxiations are from drowning. Trying to remember all the outraged women protesting Mary Jo Kopeckeney’s Asphyxiation (not…..) in 1969, you’d think the “Women’s Liberation” movement would have had something to say about it
Frank
It doesn't matter whether he died by drug overdose or at the hands of police. His life had no value. He was a stupid, low IQ criminal thug with fat ugly lips. He was closer in genetics to a gorilla than a human.
Are you a leftist plant, spewing this kind of pablum to poison the well against this place?
Why not just “I love VC. Heil Hitler!”???
Come on, man. We deserve better than a class exercise in week three of your troll training.
RAK is ours; this guy is yours. Just block him and move on.
Just did, actually.
And nothing of value was lost.
Unless I mistake him, Prof. Sanders always struck me as thoughtful before, so this is disappointing.
It starts thinly sourced - comparing some scattered opinions to infer a thesis I don't think is supported.
And then it gets polemical ('as social justice has become its own form of both religion' is right wing shibboleth and not much else. 'outcome-oriented work that advances the progressive political agenda' is not some new thing. See the Chicago School.)
The polemic goes after both sides, but that doesn't make it any less of a polemic with all the flaws that come along with that (and without the rhetorical fun you sometimes get to see in the genre).
Heterodox Academy will love this. And FIRE. And every other conservative entity that issues passes with respect to the censorship, bigotry, nonsense, and ignorance that are the signature elements of conservative-controlled campuses.
Why do they do it? Partisanship. Flattery of right-wing donors. A hope people won't notice. A chance to get citations, links, and Republican street cred from fellow conservatives. Also, it is what they have left to work with in a modern American society that has been rejecting conservatives' stale, objectionable thinking for more than a half-century.
Carry on, clingers.
"as social justice has become its own form of both religion’ is right wing shibboleth"
No, it is an on-campus fact.
The OP does not say that the result is recent, only that it has grown considerably over the past 30 years. Why don't you refute the facts if you disagree, rather than make a snide comment.
What is your opinion of conservative campuses that major in nonsense, bigotry, superstition, backwardness, censorship, dogma, belligerent ignorance, discrimination, and the flouting of academic freedom?
Harvard and Berkeley? They Suck.
That's not what a religion is, it's just a slam on an ideal you don't like.
DEI existing is an on-campus fact. In some schools I'm sure it sucks. In others I expect it's fine.
But there are some people who it will piss off no matter what it does. And others that have invented a whole set of stuff they bet it does, and get very angry at the imaginary DEI.
It's a religion due to no actual scientific backing for it and the utter inability to falsify it.
What is the unfalsifiable DEI thesis? That diversity is good?
1) There is science there. About talent pools. About problem solving.
2) Even if there were no science, activating more of our population is a good idea; more people means more talented people means better outcome for just about everything.
Sarcastr0 37 mins ago
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What is the unfalsifiable DEI thesis? That diversity is good?
In theory diversity is good - the problem is it has become a backdoor method to discredit merit.
damikesc seems to have a different opinion than that.
Anti-DEI has become a backdoor method to whine about reverse discrimination and anti-conservative bias. It's a slightly less offensive version of replacement theory.
Less offensive than Artie?
I know of no situation in which a diversity of skin color does one thing to boost anything.
Diversity of IDEAS is quite good.
That is the opposite of what DIE seeks.
If you think DEI is only about race, you're as ignorant as you appear.
We struggle to engage with blacks in STEM, for instance. Even when controlling for location and socioeconomic class. I don't even care about the diversity of experience, I just want to make sure we're asking hard science questions of the widest talent pool possible.
Diversity can be good, bad, and anything in between.
If it's a diversity of opinion concerning reasonably debatable matters, that's good, because even if it's wrong opinion, it causes people to think. DIE is pretty hostile to that sort of diversity.
If it's diversity of cosmetics, that's pretty much irrelevant to the function of most institutions, but of course for that reason you shouldn't be suppressing it, either.
If it's diversity of opinion about whether racial discrimination or genocide, or things of that sort, are good or bad? Diversity can be really negative. You only need a few people around with diverse opinions about whether it's OK to murder or rape folks to really impact the atmosphere at an institution.
DIE is pretty hostile to that sort of diversity is a thing the right keeps insisting, waiving around this or that anecdote, but it's just not true.
I work with DEI folks and they're inclusive and adaptable and understanding and nothing like the cartoons many around here take them for.
Try this experiment: Tell them that Bruce Jenner is a man. See how much diversity they'll tolerate.
This is out of scope.
Random partisan statements are rude. It’d also be in bad taste if I said Jenner is a woman randomly.
Don Nico...The larger issue Sarcastr0 notably did not reach: The greatly increased skepticism of Courts to defer to academia.
The academes did this to themselves. When you sow lying and distortion in service of an agenda (ostensibly the outcome based work Sarcastr0 referenced), you reap skepticism from the very people you are trying to convince.
(also appreciated the compliance aspect of your comments further down the thread...that was spot-on. Compliance cost is a major issue for business)
As I said, I don’t think either side of that delta is established by the scattered quotes in the article,
I get you want to believe, as does the article.
I’m not sure schools ever had special judicial deference, not that courts are more skeptical now.
The pandemic changed everything, Sarcastr0. Open your eyes.
That's some awful argumentation.
I'd go the other way - you want to believe this, and presto it's so believable you don't evidence just your eyes.
That's a red flag.
Technically not the pandemic itself, but the way various institutions responded to it. A lot of masks fell off along with them being put on.
Yet again, storytelling is not proof even if you realy like the story you are telling.
Sarcastr0, there was lying and distortion by government officials throughout the pandemic, from the inception. That is a matter of public record. These same government officials were 'helped' by a bevy academics who lied and distorted their work to advance an agenda. Courts (and judges) are not blind.
What you're seeing (increased skepticism) is a reaction to something that is happening (agenda driven academics gaming the Courts).
I completely disagree about the degree of deference; until recently, Courts gave a lot of deference to academics. I think of Kagan's dissents during some of the pandemic era cases (when churches and synagogues were arbitrarily shut down) as pretty typical; she gave much deference to medical experts (who were wrong, btw) to shut things down, or mandate them.
We have yet to hold many accountable for their actions.
You aren’t coming at this with any interest in the truth of what’s going on.
All spite and vibes.
C_XY,
There certainly was a great deal said by public officials early on in the pandemic that was shown to be false. However, I would not say those were lies. They were usually the best guesses at the time. Six months in contrary data started to pile up. The data were not dispositive and not surprisingly in the midst of a crisis most officials did not back off early statements. By now there are many retrospective studies. When CDC disagreed with EU and UK policies, CDC was almost always on the losing end of the disagreement. I attribute that to bureaucratic stubbornness rather than ill will.
Indeed. The Atlantic always has the best right wing shibboleths. And then you have the Chronicle of Higher Ed for your right wing polemics. Neo-nazi publications basically.
Reverse ad hominem is also a fallacy.
I also noted it wasn’t partisan and went Souter both sides. You missed that I guess and went on as though my issue was partisan.
It's not just the courts who no longer respect higher education -- courts are usually the most conservative (as in resistant to change) institutions in our society. An increasing number of employers are no longer requiring the college degree, and an increasing number of middle class kids are choosing NOT to go to college.
Law schools currently have a protected monopoly -- but then railroads once had a monopoly on passenger transportation. New technologies -- both aircraft and automobiles -- eliminated that. A 1950 Pontiac may be a nice antique, but I'd hate to have to drive it for a couple hundred miles.
Higher Ed could have been saved circa 1990, but it's too late now...
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cpa/immediate-college-enrollment-rate
Undergrad enrollment is down a few percentage from the average since 2010.
No sign of Ed's anti-college revolution, and this stat is one I'd expect to have a pretty long Covid hangover. But worth noting.
"Undergrad enrollment is down a few percentage from the average since 2010."
That's "Immediate college enrollment rate of high school completers". The absolute number of enrollments paint a different picture. Down 10% from 2010, in the face of increasing population. (I'm ignoring the abrupt drop and bounce back due to Covid policies.) This source agrees.
How do you square roughly the same percentage enrolling out of HS, a rising population, and a 10% drop in the number of people currently enrolled?
Easy: About half of HS students who enroll in college never finish their degree. And this seems to be getting worse as time goes by.
2010 is a peak, so measuring from that is spurious. Actually that might be a ding against my own stat.
If you look at the full spread in your link, there's not much of a trend to the eyeball.
And BTW, my dog in the fight is I do think a liberal arts education is overvalued and oversubscribed. People are different, and our higher education system is pretty bad at dealing with that.
More technical schooling, more community colleges, and something akin to apprenticeship as a substitute for academics.
But the numbers are what they are.
"2010 is a peak, so measuring from that is spurious"
Measuring from the peak is how you typically describe an ongoing decline. Consider (made up numbers) "The decline in buggy usage continues in 1925, with buggy numbers down 76% from their peak in 1910". There's nothing wrong with that, although you should point out that you are measuring from the peak.
Also, those are absolute numbers. The US population is up 9ish pct since 2010, so the decline is more than indicated by raw numbers. Actually, you'd want the number of 18 year olds or something, not the total population.
(mostly agree re "More technical schooling, more community colleges, and something akin to apprenticeship", just geeking out on the stats niceties)
Measuring from the peak is how you typically describe an ongoing decline That assumes there is a decline. If you are establishing a decline by looking at a peak, you’ve just begged the question.
Decent point on the normalization for population.
[I'm congenitally bad at stats, but like to think I have a working ability.]
If there's a peak then there's a decline. That's mathematically trivial, you know. In this case, the numbers I linked to, from at least two sites, showed essentially monotonic decline since 2010. Every last year, until the rebound from Covid policies, was lower than the one before.
That's a pretty clear signal.
Brett - if there is just a general cycle then you can't establish a decline in any kind of useful way by picking a peak.
Looking at your chart but picking a different date like 1998, this trend of yours goes away. That's a sign it's not really saying anything fundamental, no?
Take the reverse - picking the bottom of a depression to say our economy is improving hugely is a spurious statement.
Sarcast0 -- we have had alternating big & small generations since the Civil War, but the (a) "Roaring 20's, (b) Depression, and (c) WWII exacerbated it.
There were babies born in the good time before 1929 -- they are the WWII vets. Few babies were born during the Depression (no welfare then) and during WWII (no men around then) and this became the "Silent Generation of the 1950s.
The bulk of the Baby Boom was 1947-1960 but it is hard to say exactly when it ended and Gen X began because the fourth/sixth child of the Baby Boom overlapped with the first child of Gen X families. This -- and the massive increase in female enrollment -- is why enrollment plummeted in 1989 and not 1980 (remember that a lot of baby boom women went to college in their 40s in the '80s).
So what you see are good times for higher ed in the 1970s, so-so times in the 1980s, and then an enrollment decline in the 1990s and then the Millennials arriving around the turn of the century. And the Millennials have now aged out.
This is why you have to look at the composition of the cohort and not just the headcounts. Higher ed went from (almost) 60%/40% male to 40%/60% male from (roughly) 1980-1990 -- think about the statistics necessary for that to happen.
If something's cyclic then the decline won't continue. It's still a decline when things go down.
I think there are fundamental reasons for enrollment in college to decline. Degree programs got over-sold relative to need, which is why the machinists down in the tool room my office overlooks take home more pay than I do. It's not just because I get to sit, and they have to stand, it's because they're in short supply.
There's going to be a trend towards people opting for vocations instead of higher education, and that's a good thing, at least until that overshoots, too. And even in higher education there's going to be a trend away from degrees that don't result in increased income commensurate with the cost of getting the degree.
That's fine, Brett. I don't think your right from what I see (though I kinda hope that you are).
But then you need to realize you just admitted you don't have the numbers to back that up right now.
Brett, there's also an increase in minority enrollment -- that's increasing while the total is going down.
Look at it this way: Say (hypothetically) sales of beer were down, but the drinking age was also dropped back to 18. How much *more* would sales of beer be down if the 18-21 cohort weren't also now able to buy it?
Hence how much more would enrollment be down if the number of minority women wasn't also increasing?
Now, in fairness, 2010 is when the Millennials (born before 1989) aged out of college* and 2026 is when the babies not born in 2008 won't be turning 18 -- and the demographics remain low after that.
So it's three dimensions.
* Remember that one is in college (undergrad) for at least 4 years, and the real number of Millennial births started dropping in 1987. Colleges may survive Fall 2026 because of upperclassmen, and then fail a few years later when they have graduated.
“That assumes there is a decline.”
Right … and this case, that’s a pretty safe assumption because there actually is a decline. You can argue it’s a small one – nothing the matter with (made up numbers) “the enrollment decline since the 2010 peak is only down 6%, which is probably just statistical noise, or a blip caused by whatever”.
There just isn’t anything wrong with ‘The number of men in the military declined from a peak of 12 million in 1945 to 2 million in 1947’. What endpoint would you prefer for that discussion? 1942 so it’s an even 5 years? That would be silly.
You can disagree with the thesis, but ‘comparing now to a previous peak (or trough) is invalid’ isn’t a very good argument.
Maybe try ‘enrollment dipped between 2010 and 2021, but is on the upswing’ or something. Nothing wrong with that.
(but first, I’d correct for the 18 year old population … that is clearly going to have first order effects on enrollment. Without correcting for that you might just be looking at a graph of the yearly 18 year old cohort. Or not, I have no idea. But I wouldn’t draw any inferences about societal change without accounting for that)
"That’s a pretty clear signal."
Well, it might be a signal that the annual cohort of 18 year olds varies.
Indeed, it might be.
Just eyeballing this, doesn't look like the relevant age groups have declined.
Here's pretty much the same data with hover text. No, I'd say there hasn't been remotely large enough decline in the relevant age brackets to account for it. Though in 5-10 years you won't be able to say that.
"No, I’d say there hasn’t been remotely large enough decline in the relevant age brackets to account for it."
Using the 20-24 age group as a proxy for 'college age', I get a oneish pct decline in population and 10ish pct decline in enrollment, so yup.
It's would be interesting to know what the projected enrollment increases in the Statista page through 2031 are based on. It doesn't look like there is a demographic bulge coming.
Immigration, although I don't see it being paid for.
I am indeed assuming a significance factor in the thesis, not just a technical mathematical point.
If that is where our difference lies, then it seems hardly a difference at all.
"Measuring from the peak is how you typically describe an ongoing decline That assumes there is a decline. If you are establishing a decline by looking at a peak, you’ve just begged the question."
OT: This is how climate change "science" works
"2010 is a peak, so measuring from that is spurious. "
Come on either present data to show that 2010 was an abnormally high year, or you are indulging in in unethical data manipulation.
High school students aren't "rising population" any longer. Some universities are already experiencing issues related to dips in the number of rising seniors (prospective college admits) and they are preparing for a decade or two of decline.
Frankfurter was right, academics are the "priests of our democracy", that's why we need a reformation. Priesthoods become just as corrupt and self-serving as any other bureaucracy.
But speaking of bureaucracies probably the most important first step is cutting back University administration to a reasonable level. It boggles the mind that some universities now have more administrators than faculty, or even in some extreme instances more administrators than students. The fact that this explosion in administration has happened over the 30 or 40 years that college administration has been computerized and presumably become more productive is especially mind boggling.
" It boggles the mind that some universities now have more administrators than faculty,"
This is hardly surprsing. Given the "brute force of government power," a large amount of university administration is compliance driven. Consequently, the number of administrators devoted to assuring unquestionable compliance has grown. With the growth of DEI and Social justice ideology in university policies, the number of new administrators in those areas has also grown. There never seens a reason to cut back on the growth of extaneous personnel.
Compliance with what?
Smaller schools, HBCUs, TCUs, etc. get by with a fraction of the administration overhead, and aren't all breaking the rules.
This is one where the answer seems easy to me - it's loans disaggregating cost from payment, taking cost out of the cost/benefit value analysis most other goods and services get.
Indeed, Sarcastr0 is posting without facts again
The statistics are clear. At every college level, administrator costs are growing faster than instructional cost. This is just from 2015-2020
https://www.usnews.com/education/articles/one-culprit-in-rising-college-costs
With what?
Not being at a university, you do not see the very large number of issues connected with government regulations regarding grants, various rights legislation, fiscal matters, corporate oversight requirements, etc. These grow steadily and as they do administrative bureaucracy grows. DEI related issues have also spawned upper level administrative positions within departments and schools of universities. All these raise overheads, often to 70 - 75% at R1 universities.
You're really talking about a topic that you have no first hand knowledge of.
I'd be interested your actual data about overhead rates at HBCU's and other small colleges
Among other things I AM government regulations regarding grants, and oversight requirements for at least the research side. Part of my job is site visits and hearing from VPRs about their challenges.
So I'm not ignorant as I point out a number of institutions that are counterexamples to your 'compliance demands a bloated administration.' The demands of the beurocracy expand to meet internal as well as external requirements, and I see the balance being a lot more internal than external at our larger institutions.
If your tuition means you got money to throw around there is a value add to making your grant writing as badass as possible. But that's not a compliance requirement.
I actually have to agree -- academia today is far more invasive into the lives of students than would ever have been tolerated in the 1950s (by their parents) or the 1970s (by them).
What Orwell never mentioned was the bureaucracy (and personnel) necessary to support "Big Brother." That's a lot of this...
1950s was a less free time for everyone, so you're wrong as to what was tolerated.
I don't recall the 1950's, (I was born in '59.) and you sure as hell don't. But I can tell you that in the 70's, the university cared that I attended class and got good grades, and didn't carry fruit out of the cafeteria, (Because we might use it to make Wapatula in the dorms.) and that was about it. Politics? Religion? Big endian or small endian? They didn't care, none of their business.
They are enormously more intrusive into students' lives these days.
Some people wrote down stuff about the 1950s, you know.
A woman in school, for instance, would be putting up with a whole lot of intrusion into her life, just by the nature of who she was.
Contrast to your boring choices in school, I hear there actually was some politics on campus in the 1970s, and it included some academic intrusion into the lives of students even.
[Note: I also made boring choices when I went to school. But I realize my experience was not everyone’s.]
"1950s was a less free time for everyone"
I dunno. Kids - of all races and sexes! - could walk to school alone without having the cops drag them home and yell at their parents. Or play unsupervised, etc, etc, etc.
Less free in some ways, sure, and more free in others.
Free to walk to school after which social norms were rigorously enforced sometimes corporally.
Of course nothing is 100% across the board. But 1950s generally as a time of freedom even limited to students is flat wrong.
The all too common conservative worship of a 1950 that never was.
I gotta be honest ... I just finished laughing out loud. You're telling people who lived then they are flat wrong about what they experienced. That takes a lot of chutzpah.
Sure, the black kids in much of the country were especially free to do that, because they didn't get buses like the white kids.
You got buses??
But I agree with your point - it was a worse time to be black, or gay, and generally speaking a woman. But the statement I was disagreeing with was “1950s was a less free time **for everyone**” (emphasis added).
And my point was that it had advantages and disadvantages relative to now - and you're absolutely right that the mix varied depending on who you were. But less free across the board for everyone? Not...in my experience.
Well I was in grade school in the 60's, and in my school district they had a policy no bus routes within a mile of the school for elementary schools.
Seems reasonable, and yes it was uphill both ways, had to walk downhill to the main street and back up another hill to the school. That was 4th grade.
When I was younger my brother got run over walking home from school on his second day of first grade, he was in a cast for 6 months. But we still to and from school everyday just like every other kid in the neighborhood.
Middle school, there were also no buses and I had to walk almost 2 miles to school.
I grew up in suburban Northern California.
I'm saying anyone generalizing based on their experience is going to be incorrect.
The conservatives that worship the 1950s usually didn't live at that time.
"demands a bloated administration.’ "
There you go again. I did not say bloated, but you feel compelled to exaggerate. You make site visits great. I am onsite all the time.
I doubt actually make a count of the admins per faculty and ask what they are doing. Who pays for the unfunded government mandates of open access and open data? The answer is the university library and IT departments, i.e., overhead. And is that function compliance? Yes, because it is required by the granting agencies.
There is no point in going on because you don't want to see the ground truth.
You are going to quibble because I paraphrased your thesis using the word bloated?! Sorry if you don’t think over 70% overhead isn’t bloated.
I can know which institutions have a lot of administrative overhead and which do not without personally doing a count. One way is plenty of HBCUs and other smaller schools don’t even have a dedicated business office, much less a dedicated grant writing staff. It is easy to count to zero.
Why did you specify R1 above? R1 schools don’t have extra compliance requirements compared to say R3 so what is all that oversight for, huh?
Don Nico : ” …university administration … compliance driven ….”
Let me take a sec and enjoy the moment. First, in remembering several exchanges with Don where he put on his best faux piety and scorned my partisanship as a very, very, bad thing. Of course I called his act a fraud back then, but watching him peddle such hackneyed & ossified crap above/below just paints that out in more lurid colors.
Second, in welcoming the election returns. How many elections in a row has the GOP underperformed now? Before shell-shocked Righties offer excuses, here’s the list:
1. You’re party leader is a imbecilic slimy huckster buffoon.
2. His major challenger is also a huckster buffoon, only more sour.
3. The party ranks are full of Jordans, Greenes, Gaetzs, and Boeberts.
4. That’s because the party base only wants to be entertained.
Which is why party’s issues are nonexistant gibberish like CRT in public schools, the transexual threat, and cancel culture. And is why the GOP puts on such an embarassing show in actual governance. Which leads to normal people refusing to vote for them in numbers large enough to win elections. Which will happen again in ’24.
Of course we keep hearing the Right’s “fever” is about to break, but I don’t believe it. After Biden’s reelection they’ll be right back here, perhaps embroiled in the same anti-education, elitist-bashing egghead-trashing anti-intellectual shtick. Remember, Trump is more symptom than cause. Today’s Right was already a hollowed-out nihilistic Nothing before he ever appeared on the scene.
But as long as the Right’s media, entertainers and extras (politicians) keep delivering WWE-style thrills to their consumer base, that’s all that matters. Because that’s what it is about now.
"Biden's re-election"??
I'm amazed he's still alive today (Is he? haven't checked yet)
Speaking of hollowed-out nihilistic Nothing : Frank!
"Nihilistic" is doing a lot of work there.
I remember when I learned what Nihilism (rhymes with...) meant, maybe one day you'll learn it to.
Frank
God help us if anything happens to him -- even natural causes.
I like to remind people that JFK was *not* popular in 1963, he didn't think he was going to win re-election in 1964, and the reason he went to Dallas was to shore up support in his own party. The Dallas Democrats were openly calling him a "Communist" and worse -- these were the Democrats....
When Jimmy Carter dies -- rumor is that he's got terminal cancer -- there will be countless glowing eulogies about how great a President he was and all -- and no mention of how seriously he f*cked up the country, just how bad StagFlation had become circa 1980, or how he almost didn't get renominated. Memory is that Ted Kennedy wasn't the only one running against him.
Dying in office is the best thing a President can do to advance his political agenda -- and I think we all know what Brandon's agenda is. So I wish him good health. Preferably in Federal Prison, but good health....
grb,
Your snide comment about piety is just so much bullshit. You delight in seeing others with shit-colored glasses and miss how obnoxious you looks to others.
Tell us what you know about university administration first hand. Let's hear it, if you have anything of substance to say.
Could you point to a university or two with more administrators than faculty? And could you define what you mean by "administrator" in this context? I hear this assumption a lot but in my experience it simply isn't true.
"The fact that this explosion in administration has happened over the 30 or 40 years that college administration has been computerized and presumably become more productive is especially mind boggling."
You do realize that building out large IT departments comes with an increase in staff and management to support it, right?
Here is a good article left on the whole topic with some examples of schools that have a 1:1 administrator to student body ratio:
https://thesenateforum.wordpress.com/2023/05/09/administrative-bloat-in-higher-education-is-this-now-a-higher-education-industrial-complex/
I confess, I no longer understand the purpose of academic freedom--I mean, for the larger society, including the taxpayers who pay for most universities. Once I would have said that academic freedom protected diversity of opinion, which increases the ability of each individual to find the truths that they believe in, but universities today are among the least intellectually diverse institutions I know. So I don't see the big loss--indeed, I think it might be a net gain--in the state regulating them much more tightly than has generally been the case in the past.
You have that exactly backwards. Universities got the way they are because of government intervention in the form of subsidized research and subsidized tuition. And you want more government intervention to "fix" them?
It don't work that way.
Government is always the problem. More government is never the solution.
Yup!
Ohio got government out of the way tonight with respect to abortion and marijuana!
Clingers hardest hit. Especially superstitious misogynists and authoritarian prudes.
So now unborn Black/Brown babies are "Klingers"?? Check out the Suction Cannister sometime "Coach" looks like a Wendy's Caramel Frosty
Frank
Kirkland, are you noticing all the stuff starting to come in about how harmful (if not deadly) Marijuana actually is? This is like tobacco in the 1950s -- there is too much to ignore, stuff ranging from mental health (causing skitz) to heart attacks.
And these are reputable (read: left wing and hence "honest") outfits saying these things, with what looks to me like some fairly legitimate research backing them up.
Wouldn't the irony of making Marijuana legal be that we realize why it was illegal in the first place, and get serious about actually banning it...
Not sure I agree with your Police work there "Dr" Ed.
Of course I only partake of the Marriage-a-Juan-a for purely
Medical reasons, my Prostrate, I mean, my Glaucoma.
Frank
Marijuana . . . red meat . . . most fast food . . . sugary drinks . . . chewing tobacco . . . vaping products . . . most candy . . . alcohol-stimulant combinations . . . cigarettes . . . energy drinks . . .
Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland 14 hours ago
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Ohio got government out of the way tonight with respect to abortion and marijuana!
Clingers hardest hit.
No - the ones hardest hit are the babies who are going to be denied a chance for life.
Subsidized research is how we got where we are in science and tech.
Government is absolutely the solution in areas like research. Markets are not good at the collaborative, long-term, high-risk world of fundamental research.
You can’t write an ROI for studying stimulated emission with no laser on the horizon.
“More government is never the solution” is the simplistic yawp of the ideologue.
Feels good to type on the Internet, is impractical in the real world.
And of course the same type explains to me I always think government is the solution. As though I'm a mirror of their own childishness.
"Government is absolutely the solution in areas like research. "
In some areas that is true. But the amount of basic research performed in and funded by the private sector is also very large.
Remember who discovered the cosmic microwave background and which company paid for it.
Of course, more industrial research dollars are tilted to the applied research.
the amount of basic research performed in and funded by the private sector is also very large.
Which in no way contradicts my point that government is a necessary part of the fundamental research ecosystem.
Remember who discovered the cosmic microwave background and which company paid for it.
You don't want to get into a fundamental breakthrough contest with our federal government.
"Which in no way contradicts "
Which is why I said that in some areas that is true.
"You don’t want to get into a fundamental breakthrough contest "
Why can't you simply except an example of one of the most fundamental discoveries, rather than trying to star a dick-sizing match in which you actually only know one side of the story with respect to return on investment. I did not even cite the discoveries related to the transistor which also won multiple Nobel prizes in physics.
I do admit that gov't funded research has won more Nobels, just not all of them
Do you think I'm arguing government is responsible for every breakthrough ever?
What even are you trying to argue, or argue against?
You fail to consider the unseen, the opportunity cost. Everything government does is funded by taking other people's money as inefficiently as possible, then spending it as inefficiently as possible, and always for goals which have no basis in reality.
NASA is a prime example. Apollo provided no lasting value, it cost a fortune, and it killed three people. The space shuttle killed two crews and cost more than the expendables it replaced. The current SLS is a $4B/launch joke.
You are an economic ignoramus.
Good luck with your ‘the moon landing sucks’ argument.
I don’t think you will have many takers for your efficiency first vision of society.
That taxpayer money is used as the seed corn for our technological industrial innovation. It is a gap the market demonstrably does not fill due to timeline and risk and lack of specific RoI.
It’s also inspirational. Your lack of imagination would deny is space telescopes and that makes you an outlier.
It was you who were arguing when I don't think that we disagree by much with respect to fundamental science.
But is is the much larger non-government R&D that brings breakthrough science to the benefit of society.
No one here is talking about anything other than fundamental though.
"Government is always the problem. More government is never the solution."
This is why anarchy has historically led to strong, persistent societies with such a high quality of life.
What's needed isn't more government regulation, its more government imposed fiscal discipline. State Universities in most cases answer ultimately to the State Legislature, and they should impose caps on Administrative hiring, and impose salary caps such as the average administrator salary can't exceed average faculty salaries and no administrator can be paid more than 150% of the median faculty salary.
Not very small government of you.
The thing is no one gets into education to do administration. That is why the pay needs to be so high. Lower the pay and I shudder what kinds of low standards you would have to adopt.
'This institution doesn't have enough Republicans, so lets regulate the shit out of it' is not a conservative point of view. It's an authoritarian one.
Same energy: "I confess, I no longer understand the purpose of freedom–I mean, for the larger society. I don’t see the big loss–indeed, I think it might be a net gain–in the state regulating it's citizens much more tightly than has generally been the case in the past."
"I no longer understand the purpose of academic freedom–"
The original purpose was for professors to be able to study various different viewpoints and fields, even if they were socially undesirable or counter to established views. There's a lot that can be potentially discovered by going against the mainstream.
Problem is, the professors themselves self-censored via various mechanisms that large numbers of these different viewpoints and fields are considered "off-limits". They eliminated their own academic freedom.
You're making sense. I'd go further -- beyond "the state regulating [universities] much more tightly than has generally been the case in the past." I'd shut down all public colleges & universities. (They are not a proper function of government.) The remaining (private) colleges / universities get to have as much "academic freedom" as they want.
compare (source):
Racial discrimination in admissions...
Ideological discrimination in hiring / tenure decisions...
Imposing "political correctness" on students & faculty...
Why, in God's name, would we grant any "deference," "latitude," or "freedom" to such a corrupt, abusive, hypocritical institution?!
The number one thing that needs to be done is just to turn off the money firehose. Stop taking trillions from taxpayers and giving it to universities, which is mainly done through the student loan scam.
M L 1 hour ago
The number one thing that needs to be done is just to turn off the money firehose. Stop taking trillions from taxpayers and giving it to universities, which is mainly done through the student loan scam.
Concur - The massive increase in availability of student loans with little or no credit risk assessment is the biggest single factor in the increase in college tuition. It was well known as early as the late 1970's / early 1980's that the student loan programs were going to benefit the "education industrial complex" while effectively make college education less affordable.
consider the average 15 hour tuition cost as a major state school in 1975 at approx $400 a semester compared to today in the range 7k-10k
Conservatives who went to a ton of probably expensive and certainly partially subsidized school yelling not just slim down our loans but to full on kill our education system schools are bad now.
What a set of balls you gotta have.
Unfortunately, universities are giving courts more reasons to question whether their policies are based on favoritism or politics rather than neutral and objective criteria.
Thank God for the neutral and objective criteria endorsed by the Roberts Court with Dobbs and Bruen.
In your world, objective criterion would lead to a constitutional right to kill babies and for you to shoot a load into the Rev Kirkland's behind, while guns can be heavily regulated for whites but allowed with no restrictions for black criminals.
Any of you conservatives still wondering why the Volokh Conspirators are no longer respected by mainstream legal academia or welcome on strong law faculties?
Because its most prolific poster is disgraced Foo-Bawl Coach and Rapeist Jerry Sandusky?
No, I'm pretty sure it because of comments like, " . . . blow a load is into another man’s nether regions," and "Sensible people realize that women have no business in positions of power, voting or anything else of import," that you and your colleagues post that bring down the VC.
Like Parkinsonian Joe, your memory's failed you. Coach Sandusky can blow his load into another (consenting) man's nether regions as much as he wants, preferably while in a Maximum Security Prison. And with 2 daughters who routinely fly jets with 20mm machine guns (OK, it's a "Cannon" but meets the ATF definition of "Machine Gun", I'm comfortable with "women in positions of power"
Which is why I don't support killing them before they're born, like that (redacted) (redacted) (redacted) Kermit Gosnell did
Frank
Umm, if you're talking the A-10, I'm not sure the ATF would call that a "machine gun" -- although it would run afoul on caliber size.
*Somewhere* I saw that the traditional 19th Century Gatling guns are *not* "machine guns" -- something about how multiple barrels are being fired individually as opposed to one being fired repeatedly.
Remember that the NFA was written to deal with the hand-held Thompson gun, not the truck-mounted Gatling gun which was way too cumbersome to be used in drive-by shootings.
A-10? 1: it has a 30mm gun (GAU-8 Avenger) B: Older one flies FA-18's, Younger F-16's, and with a rate of fire of some 6000 rounds/minute, you'd have to hold the trigger down for .01 second to only get 1 round off. ATF's definition of "Machinegun" is
" Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger"
Frank
Or the one we're sure to get in Rahimi, after the Court has lived for all of a year with the stupid rule it announced in Bruen.
Understanding the purposes or norms is — or, at least, should be — entirely irrelevant. There is no basis for pretending either “academic freedom” or “the norms of academic governance” were ever entrenched in the federal constitution to any kind or degree, or that any court rulings to the contrary were ever anything more than the lawless dictates of judges who had usurped policy-making authority.
This is highlighted by the fact that, when listing the sources of “academic deference” from the judiciary, the author does not say things like “The law governing Harvard in Massachusetts in 1789”, “John Jay in Federalist Paper #64”, “State of New York v. Columbia University (1801)”, or “remarks of Congressman John Bingham in the debates over the Fourteenth Amendment”.
You want to claim you can do something because of academic freedom? Fine, go to your state’s courts and point out the relevant “academic freedom” provision in its constitution, its laws, or your contract.
Change a few words and this blog post could apply equally well to journalists.
With academia and journalism both giving in to activism, is there any wonder that the public wants to join in by posting their own personal versions of the truth? But when the public does it, government is prone to step in to curb "misinformation". But academic and journalistic disinformation both enjoy special protection.
So academia and journalists have access to hundreds of billions of dollars for research, formal training in reporting (with technical editors, peer-checks, etc.), and present their findings to the public for critical review versus . . . you.
And you claim THEY are the one peddling disinformation?!?
That sounds something like a disgruntled loser would say.
Yet with all those advantages, academia fail to publish the objective truth, they publish their biased versions. Read the subject of this blog post.
apedad - there is considerable amount of poor quality agenda driven peer reviewed studies that are effectively disinformation. Prime examples are the multitude of pro masking studies or the gas stove causes asthma studies.
Granted there are lots of good quality studies, just pointing out the disinformation happens quite frequently from all sides
Like Bush '45's National Guard memo, in a font that didn't exist at the time (but just happened to be the default one on MS Word) and when no General would ever have typed his own memos, let alone even known how to. (That's what secretaries were for -- and they had them...)
There are LOTS of other examples, but this one didn't pass the straight face test...
"With academia and journalism both giving in to activism..."
This is a political opinion that isn't based in fact. Academia and journalism have always had an activist bent in segments of their industries. This isn't new. What is new (or at least new in scale) is that people who disagree with researched facts because it cuts against their personal opinions are attacking science and journalism in very large numbers. This used to be a thing the fringe did but the conservative fringe has become their mainstream.
It made sense to preserve academic freedom, so long as the academics were also preserving academic freedom.
When the academics started eliminating academic freedom…only hiring the “right” sort of people, using the tools of social pressure and selective funding and denied tenure to eliminate the “wrong sort” of people with the “wrong views” …the argument of academic freedom lost weight. Because that freedom had already been eliminated.
College Academics are the “Priests of our Democracy”??
You mean as in fucking us up the ass and pontificating on shit they have no experience with? well, Duh,
Frank (Former Assistant Assistant Professor of Anatomy and Biophysics*)
* Gross Anatomy’s the Rodney Dangerfield of Medical Sciences, Useful to know, but not alot of new research, so for the last 20 years they keep trying to make it sound more modern, adding fancy sounding titles (“Kinesiology”, “Ergonomic Physiology”) which end up being alot of Sound & Fury, signifying nothing.
Is this really new? Is the ideological garb it’s being sheathed in really justified?
In University of Pennsylvania v. EEOC, decided in 1990, a university, relying on Sweeney v. New Hampshire and other academic freedom cases, argued that both common law judicial deference to academic decision-making and First Amendment academic freedom principles protected its confidential internal tenure discussions from disclosure in employment discrimination cases with at least a qualified privelege.
No dice, wrote Justice Blackmun for a unanimous Supreme Court more than 30 years ago. University decision-making doesn’t get any special privelege or deference in discrimination cases. You get treated like any other employer.
Is what Chief Justice Roberts said in SFFA really all that different, either in substance or tone, from what Justice Blackman said over 30 years ago?
It seems to me that the whole premise of Professor Sanders’ argument, that the current attitude of the Supreme Court towards universities in discrimination cases is radically different from, and much less deferential than, it was in the previous century, is significantly undercut by comparing Justice Roberts’ opinion in SFFA to Justice Blackman’s in U of Pennsylvania, and noting the similarities.
Perhaps there was a change , just one that occurred earlier, with the attitude in the 1990s perhaps already significantly different from waht it was the 1950s. But the unanimity of the U of Pennsylvania decision, authored by one of the Courts’ prominent liberals, suggests that the Court’s tack towards declining deference to university decision-making wasn’t nearly as ideologically based as Professor Sanders suggests.
ReaderY said, "Is this really new?"
Think back to the Red Menace Scare and the McCarthy hearing of the 1950s. Did
academia go along with the Red Menace or not? Compare that with academics going along with BLM in 2020.
Yes it is substantially new. Nothing is 100%
I would tend to agree that Sweeney v. New Hampshire suggests greater deference to internal university decision-making processes than subsequent cases reflected.
However, the fact that in 1990 all the Court’s liberals declined to give university decision-making any special deference in civil rights cases does tend to undercut Professor Sanders’ explanation for the change. Professor Sanders argued that today’s conservative Justices are not deferring to university decision-making because universities have recently “gone woke,” abandoned their historic role, and become advocates for left-wing causes.
Yeah, based on the Blackmun case you point out I tend to agree with you that this is a change that has been happening for a while but maybe affirmative action was a special case where the court still left some kind of deference pre-SFFA.
Semi-relevant personal anecdote: My mom represented a plaintiff in a discrimination case against a major state university system back in the early 1980s. Plaintiff was a female untenured professor, had been repeatedly passed over for tenure in favor of less-qualified men. She was running her department, had published multiple books and numerous scholarly articles; men were getting tenure who had barely published anything. Also, there were only two women in the entire university system with tenure – and they were both married to men who had tenure. So, basically if you were a woman and you wanted tenure you needed to marry a tenured man.
Plaintiff lost at the trial court on summary judgment. Split panel of the Court of Appeals affirmed, basically stating they were required to defer to the University in questions of internal governance like tenure, and the University had put forth legitimate reasons for the decision. Dissent was like: Dude, what are you talking about? This is blatant sex discrimination. We’re not required to take the word of the people who are accused of discriminating – of course they’re going to say they didn’t discriminate!
Discovery of tenure deliberations was also an issue in my mom’s case. IIRC the University tried to release a ‘representative sampling’ of anonymized comments from plaintiff’s tenure deliberations, which showed an even split between positive and negative comments. Plaintiff eventually got the full deliberations which showed all the negative comments came from a single individual; school had cherry-picked to create a false impression plaintiff got mediocre marks from her colleagues.
Anyway, maybe my mom’s case would have turned out differently if brought ten years later after that decision. And I’m not sure if whatever deference universities got in the past was such a good thing, at least with regard to employment decisions.
Laughable. You're becoming a crank, Eugene.
"Wokeism" isn't to blame for the lack of "deference" ("deference" usually being a term used for situations where the deferred-to party has some legitimate claim to authority in the first instance) to legal academics. Courts are less interested in legal academic work because judges and justices are increasingly just political operators, appointed for the specific purpose of achieving explicit political goals. There is no reason at all to pay attention to some academic's view on the First Amendment, when it comes to the regulation of social media companies (say), if your holding is going to be driven by the outcome you're trying to reach. They're useful, if for anything, just for a cherry-picked legal-ish rationale.
What a load of crap.
Roberts' blithe statements about racial diversity in higher education have less to do with institutional enthusiasm over DEI initiatives than it does his own ignorance and failure to address arguments for racial diversity on their own terms. He was saying this stuff long before DEI became the culture war beaten-hourse.
We may get a better sense of the genuine Eugene Volokh after he departs a mainstream campus (where he must attempt to emulate a reasonable person) and sets up shop at a right-wing enclave.
Why are you putting words in quotation marks that weren't said?
Oh in case no one noticed the comment George Floyd was murdered was proved false but still sprouted by these so called educated people.
Certainly wasn’t proved false in any reliable scientifically based study or any court of law. Whether it was “proved” in your court of wishful thinking, only you can tell.
If a burglar shoots a person with a heart condition and the person has a heart attack, you know the burglar’s defense lawer is going to argue that the person would have died anyway, the burglary and shooting have nothing to do with it, the burglar was just stopping over for a cup of tea and happened to be packing a gun and never meant any harm, the shooting was a complete accident, and the burglar is completely innocent. There’s a big difference between defense-lawyer wishful-thinking arguments that attempt to raise reasonable doubt, and “reliable proof.”
A special constitutional niche? A constitutional dimension of autonomy?
I don't remember universities being mentioned in the constitution.
"A very interesting article, which is much worth reading in its entirety."
Lol, ain't got time for that, I have comments to post.