The Volokh Conspiracy
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Far-Left Support for Hamas is not an Aberration
It's rooted in a long history of defending horrific mass murder and other atrocities.

Since the horrific October 7 Hamas terrorist attack on Israel, there has been much shock and dismay about Western far-left support for Hamas, and tendencies to minimize or justify its atrocities. What is the cause of this moral deformation?
There is surely more than one. The most obvious culprit is anti-Semitism. There is undoubtedly anti-Semitism on the far left, as also on other parts of the political spectrum (including many parts of the right). But this overlooks the fact that the far left includes a substantial number of Jewish intellectuals and activists, and has had many such throughout its history, including some of the most famous far-leftists. Such extensive Jewish participation at least complicates the claim that anti-Semitism permeates the entire far left (though, as we shall see, the socialist left has its own distinctive type of anti-Semitism).
Prominent political scientist Yascha Mounk blames the rise of recent extreme forms of left-wing identity politics, with its focus on crude theories of "white privilege" and "colonialism." There is surely something to this, as well. But it implicitly assumes that far-left defenses of terrorism and mass murder are a relatively new phenomenon, coextensive with the rise of the new identity politics. That just isn't true. In reality, the Western far left has a long history of excusing or minimizing massive atrocities, including some on a vastly larger scale than anything Hamas has so far managed to do.
Before going further, it's worth clarifying the meaning of "far left." I do not use this term as a pejorative label for anyone to the left of me. Rather, I refer to people who seek a radical transformation of society towards socialism, with the end result being state control of all or most of the economy, for purposes of promoting egalitarian values.
Such radical socialists are distinguishable from those who merely seek a larger welfare state or more extensive regulation within a generally market economy. And the former are far more likely to defend or excuse Hamas than the latter. To take one dramatic example of the contrast, compare the forceful condemnation of Hamas by the relatively moderate current British Labor Party leader Keir Starmer with the views of Jeremy Corbyn, his radical socialist predecessor, who has a long history of praising Hamas and other similar movements.
For over a century, far-leftists have had to confront the reality that regimes attempting to implement their socialist ideals have committed massive, horrific atrocities in the process. In the first few years of the Bolshevik regime in Russia, Lenin's communist dictatorship banned all opposition parties, slaughtered many thousands of people in the Red Terror, and imposed a collectivization of agriculture that led to a famine that killed millions more. Lenin's successor, Joseph Stalin, accumulated an even larger death toll.
Subsequent radical socialist regimes were no better. With his Great Leap Forward, Mao Zedong managed to surpass Lenin's and Stalin's records by perpetrating the biggest mass murder in the entire history of the world, with an estimated 30 million dead or even more. Communist rulers of smaller nations could not match such totals. But Fidel Castro (some 100,000 dead out of a population of just 6 million), Pol Pot, and many others did still amass horrific death tolls relative to the much smaller populations of their respective countries.
This pattern of atrocity and mass murder was not an aberration arising from the flaws of particular leaders. For the most part, it arose from the reality that imposing socialism requires massive coercion, and creates numerous opportunities for abuse of power.
Faced with this pattern, Western far-leftists had a number of options. They could 1) repudiate their previous ideals, 2) claim the regimes trying to implement them were not actually doing so (the "not real socialism" defense), 3) defend the regimes' atrocities, or 4) try to deny or minimize them. There are some prominent examples of 1; 2 has proven a popular choice at times (usually late in the history of the regime in question). But from the days of Lenin to the present, a great many chose option 3 or 4, or some combination of both.
In his classic book Political Pilgrims, sociologist Paul Hollander chronicles numerous examples of radical left-wing Western intellectuals praising Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, and other communist mass murderers. Those who did this include prominent figures like Jean Paul Sartre, George Bernard Shaw, Sidney and Beatrice Webb, and many, many others. Some of these people focused primarily on option 4 - denying or minimizing their idols' atrocities. But others actually argued the Gulags, executions, and famines were justified as necessary means to achieving a greater good. The famous British Marxist historian Eric Hobsbawm, for example, defended Lenin and Stalin throughout his long life (he died in 2012) and said that killing 15 to 20 million people was a defensible price to pay for the achievement of a socialist Utopia.
The kinds of people who are willing to justify, minimize, or deny the slaughter of millions by the likes of Stalin and Mao are unlikely to blanch at Hamas' much smaller-scale atrocities. If you are willing to embrace the Great Leap Forward, Stalin's purges, or Lenin's Red Terror, there is probably no limit to what you will accept, so long as you think it is moving the world in the right direction.
There is, however, a notable distinction between Hamas and the likes of Mao and Stalin. The latter were pursuing left-wing socialist ideals. Hamas, pretty obviously, is not. They seek to establish a medieval Islamist theocracy, in the process oppressing women, religious minorities, and LGBT people, among others.
Why would Western far-leftists have any sympathy for such a movement? How could the likes of Jeremy Corbyn describe it as seeking "long-term peace and social justice"? The answer comes from the old adage that the enemies of our enemies are our friends.
For most far-leftists, the greatest evil in the world is capitalism. Abolishing it is their primary goal. And the great mainstays of capitalism are the US and other Western liberal democracies. This inclines many far-leftists to be sympathetic to any movement that is anti-American or anti-Western, more generally. There is a long history of them praising or at least looking favorably on such movements, even in cases where their ideology was far different from that of the Western leftists themselves.
The conflict between Israel and radical Islamists and Arab nationalists is one of the world's most visible confrontations between Western liberalism and opposing movements. While radical socialists would surely prefer to cheer for an anti-Western movement that fit their ideology closely, they are willing to support one that doesn't.
This tendency is reinforced by another development in radical leftist thought over the last century: the belief that the overthrow of capitalism is likely to emerge from the poor and underdeveloped parts of the world, through processes of "decolonization" and "national liberation." Karl Marx argued that socialist revolution would first emerge in the world's most advanced nations, through the growth of "class consciousness" in the working class. He even believed that the spread of European colonialism was, on balance, a good thing, because it promoted industrialization and thereby brought the coming of socialist revolution closer.
But Marx's expectations proved spectacularly wrong. Radical socialists have only managed to seize power in relatively poor and backward nations, beginning with Russia in 1917.
As a result, Western radical leftists have developed a special sympathy for anti-Western nationalist and anti-colonial movements in what we used to call the Third World. The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians fits this pattern well, even if the ideology of most of the latter is far from what Western leftists would ideally prefer.
Finally, far-left sympathy for Israel's enemies is augmented by the distinctive socialist brand of anti-Semitism, which differs somewhat from the more familiar right-wing version. Instead of focusing on the racial, ethnic, or theological characteristics of Jews, this one focuses on their economic role. A movement that seeks to abolish private property and capitalist economic transactions is likely to view with suspicion an ethnic group that is disproportionately represented in the worlds of entrepreneurship, trade, and finance.
It is often said that anti-Semitism is "the socialism of fools." Foolish socialists single out the Jews instead of focusing their ire on capitalists more generally. But even relatively non-foolish socialists often look askance at a group that seems disproportionately represented among what they see as the capitalist "exploiter" class.
Karl Marx's notorious 1844 essay "On the Jewish Question" exemplifies this tendency. In that work, he called for equal rights for Jews. But he also wrote this:
What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.…. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.
Marx further believed, as he wrote in 1856, that supposed Jewish control of the world of finance props up regimes he disapproved of and the capitalist system more generally. Of Jewish descent himself, Marx did not claim that Jews were inherently bad. He just thought they must be removed from their role in the capitalist system, and should give up elements of their beliefs he claimed were conducive to that role.
Such ideas persist in modern far-left thought, often transmuted into attacks on "Zionists," rather than Jews as such. Just as Marx denounced Jewish "moneychangers of our age enlisted on the side of tyranny," so some modern radicals claim that Zionists control finance and the media.
The economic focus of socialist anti-Semitism also explains how it can persist in a movement that has many Jewish members. By virtue of becoming radical socialists, the latter are viewed by their comrades as having rejected Jewish connections with capitalism, thereby making themselves kosher, so to speak.
Western socialists took a less negative view of Israel in its early years, when that country was dominated by the left-wing Labor Party, and Israel's image on the left was in significant part influenced by the small-scale socialist institution of the kibbutz. But as Israel has moved to the right, and even the kibbutzim have become more capitalist, far-left anti-Semitism has reemerged and focused its energies on Israel and its backers in the Jewish Diaspora.
The left-wing anti-Semitic element here is likely less important than the more general tendency to excuse or minimize atrocities by those radical socialists see as being on the right side of history. But it probably makes things worse at the margin.
In making these points, I do not mean to deny that there is also a horrific history of right-wing anti-Semitism, culminating in the Holocaust. I also fully recognize that many right-wingers have their own history of praising or minimizing horrific atrocities by movements they approve of.
It is also important to remember that radical leftists are far from the only types of people who sympathize with Hamas. It has plenty of supporters who are radical Islamists or Arab nationalists. Especially outside the West, these groups are likely a much larger proportion of Hamas backers than the radical socialists. Far-leftists, though, are especially prominent on college campuses and other intellectual institutions, where they are hugely overrepresented relative to their proportion of the general population.
Finally, it should go without saying - but nonetheless, in the current political environment, must be said - that I don't claim that any and all criticism of the Israeli government and its policies amounts to support of Hamas. I have been highly critical of some of those policies myself. But actual defenses of Hamas' terrorist attacks or attempts to minimize them, are a different matter.
Ultimately, right-wing (and radical Islamist) awfulness does not excuse that of the far left (and vice versa). And if my analysis is correct, much of the awfulness is deeply rooted in the ideology of radical socialism. It goes well beyond specific details of the current conflict.
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We get more upset with capitalist (and Israeli) atrocities because they’re being done with our tax dollars.
In true American fashion, we're actually funding both sides of this conflict, in that Hamas gets first claim on all "aid" to Gaza (who's going to stop them?). So therefore getting more upset with alleged Israeli atrocities is illogical. Trump, for all his foibles, was the only one who got this right. The correct amount of aid to Gaza is $0. They want supplies, they can get them from someone else.
That Hamas stockpiles supplies for war and leaves their citizens to struggle more should be evidence of how terrible they are.
...yet defenders for them are still not hard to find.
I predicted this last week, but it happened faster than I was expecting!
https://www.newsweek.com/mike-johnson-israel-support-maga-mad-1839043
That is a nice and irrelevant aside.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8Qbi1raMAAczwV?format=jpg&name=large
That's a worn out soundbite that's been proven facile many times over
https://www.state.gov/u-s-support-for-the-palestinian-people/
In addition, $100 million directed to the Nita M. Lowey Middle East Partnership for Peace Act (MEPPA) for the first two years of a 5-year commitment will strengthen people-to-people engagement between Palestinians and Israelis to create the conditions for lasting peace.
Clearly money well spent. I'm a practical sort, in some situations with reliable adversaries paying protection money is easier than fighting. But it clearly isn't called for here, we paid the protection money without getting the protection.
What Israeli "Atrocities"??
The only "Atrocity" I see is Israel (and the US) not nuking the shit out of Ear-Ron before they get their own H-bomb (HT Barry Hussein Osama/Parkinsonian Joe) Are we supposed to wait until there's a Mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv?
Frank
Really? Iran cannot make the parts of that without Israel bombing it.
Ilya,
I know that link says forced collectivization was a contributor to the 1921-22 famine but that just isn’t correct. There was some encouraged collectivization during Tsar Nicholas’ reign but forced collectivization didn’t happen until much later under Stalin. At best, you could point to the forced partition of large estates owned by the rich, but that’s not collectivization, if anything it’s an opposite.
The big problem was the forced grain requisition (which that article also mentions). The communists would come in and take all “surplus” grain by force to feed the cities and the civil war efforts. And understandably the farmers didn’t like being stolen from and stopped producing surpluses, including the surpluses one would usually hold to account for a crop failure.
Is there a reason why this blog post only discusses half of the horseshoe?
The Right is not supporting Hamas here, nor condemning Israel for self-defense.
There is not a BOAF SIDEZ issue.
People have few problems condemning the Nazis. Why is the Left so much less willing to do the same with Commusim? Why are some progressives STILL Marxists/Communists knowing the extensive history? You do not see any respectable members of the Right who support Nazis. Not one.
The same is not remotely true of the Left.
"You do not see any respectable members of the Right who support Nazis." (?)
Probably because national socialism is a left wing thing.
Full name "National Socialist German Workers' Party".
That is pure left wing totalitarianism.
Good point. And obviously East Germany was democratic, because after all its full name was the German Democratic Republic. And North Korea? It's doubleplusgood, because its full name is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. (One can't get much better than democratic and a republic!)
You are very smart.
OK Nimrod, look at what Hitler (initially) *did* -- public works projects that were very similar to those of Franklin Roosevelt's.
Or are you saying that FDR was some right-wing extremist?
You can make an argument that Italian fascism looked quite socialist after the Great Depression with a lot of industries ending up state owned or effectively state owned. It’s much harder to make that case regarding Nazi Germany.
Yes. And, indeed, Mussolini's economic plans were a model for FDR's.
Nazi Germany nationalised the banking system, 3/4ths of the steel industry (they left Krupp who were major doners alone), placed price controls over many goods, and engaged in massive scale currency controls - only those that were state favoured could purchase anything from external suppliers. The film industry was placed under state control as was radio and the press. Large department stores we seized and taken over, their (usually Jewish) owners got no recompense.
State firms got monopolies in oil/coal, wool and other strategic industries.
Smells a lot like socialism with some extra nationalist flatulence added on.
You should maybe look up what socialism is.
Didn't he just describe the German state taking ownership of the means of production in a number of sectors?
Is Socialism not 'state ownership of the means of production'?
You should maybe lodge an actual objection rather than make people guess what your objection is.
If at the time the Nazis would have been seen as socialists, why did German and American industrialists and non-Jewish bankers support them? Why did their support in the US come from the right?
IIRC the Nazis seized Jewish-owned companies but handed them over to non-Jewish companies rather than running the companies themselves.
And, let's face it - we all fucking know that the Nazis were far-right extremists it's just that some right-wingers feel that if they concede the truth, some people might think that all right-wingers somehow carry a taint, so they feel the need to lie about it.
And, let’s face it – we all fucking know that the Nazis were far-right extremists
The Nazis specifically, and fascism in general, wasn't classed as "far right" until after Hitler violated Molotov-Ribbentrop. It's always been a post hoc false duality of fascism on one end and communism on the other that was established as the conventional wisdom after the war ended and taught as such in social studies classrooms for decades afterward.
The opposite of communism is anarcho-capitalism, not fascism. Fascism was simply "cultural socialism," much like the post-modern marxists promoted various forms of cultural marxism after the expected global revolution of the proletariat failed to materialize in first-world nations.
The Nazis specifically, and fascism in general, wasn’t classed as “far right” until after Hitler violated Molotov-Ribbentrop
What nonsense is this? Whites and Reds been a thing since after WW1.
"What nonsense is this?"
1)I'm a horseshoe guy, so I find the spats about whether Stalin or Hitler etc were worse or right or left to be tedious; to me both are 'nasty totalitarians'. I care about the Gestapo/NKVD hauling people off to camps, not what labels people throw around in the hope none of the smell rubs off on their own fringes.
2)The Nazi party wasn't founded by Hitler, and the original one had the name and a 23 (27?) point platform that was pretty lefty ... lots of nationalizing banks and so on. To my knowledge, Hitler never amended or repudiated that, so I suppose you can say the Nazis were 'de jure' lefty with a straight face.
But Hitler wasn't an economic ideologue, unlike say Lenin, who (in addition to wanting political control) also seemed to really believe in all the state-owning-means-of-production stuff. Hitler believed in A)Hitler, B)Germanic superiority, and C)conquering as much of the world as he could. So when he joined the party (Great Depression era) he was presumably fine with the lefty slant (don't hold me to it, but I think you can find early speeches by him that are all lefty), because that was popular. Later on, as he got within reach of real power, he wanted/needed the support of the military and big business and had a lot of meetings with them. They ended up supporting him, so one might infer he wasn't telling them how he was going to remake a fat cat free society.
And FWIW, it turned out to be a bad bargain fairly soon. The German war economy was very inefficient. You could get that contract to build munitions, but in order to get the needed materials you had to grease palms in the Nazi party shadow government, and that ate up all your profits.
If you want to geek out on how the Nazi economy worked, one book is 'The Vampire Economy' by Reimann. I could recommend a couple of other books on the subject but they are at the cabin and I'm not :-). The Russians ran an efficient totalitarian war economy, and the US and Britain ran efficient free market war economies, while the Germans ran a terribly inefficient and corrupt totalitarian war economy.
Anyway the Nazis were de jure (so to speak) lefty and de facto righty, at least if you define righty as 'any totalitarians that aren't communist'. But overall, it seems to me like a dumb discussion.
What nonsense is this? Whites and Reds been a thing since after WW1.
Whites and Reds had nothing to do with right or left, much less a fascism/communism duality.
No wonder you guys need to destroy public education.
No wonder you guys need to destroy public education.
LOL, your side can't even figure out how to pay off its student loans.
You lot think people in debt are funny! Unless it’s Trump! Who never pays debts!
You lot think people in debt are funny! Unless it’s Trump! Who never pays debts!
Yes, I think overeducated nimrods who can't do basic math or a budget are hilarious.
And you love people who cheat and welch.
‘state ownership of the means of production’?
No?
"The Right is not supporting Hamas here, nor condemning Israel for self-defense."
Have you looked at gab.com lately?
Like most everybody else...no.
I'm quite conservative leaning and nobody I've seen does.
Leftists at Ivy League institutions and in the US House support Hamas but some nuts on gab also hate Jews.
Totally equal!
Who in the US House supports Hamas? People like Thomas Massie?
Rashida Tlaib for one
You got a source for that feel free to share it with the rest of the class.
October 8 sttaement does not criticize hamas but does say:
" The path to that future must include lifting the blockade, ending the occupation, and dismantling the apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance.
Murdering young people at a rave is "resistance", don't you know.
"Rashida Tlaib@RashidaTlaib
Oct 17
Israel just bombed the Baptist Hospital killing 500 Palestinians (doctors, children, patients) just like that. "
A lie, never retracted.
You will no doubt reject this as not saying "I support Hamas" so I'm wrong..
So, in other words, you have no evidence for your assertion (as usual). Just more racial hatred for a Palestinian woman. What a surprise.
Yup. One wonders why you bothered to post something you knew was so lame.
Get it right! it's Ra-Shit-a Hi-jab
Fkn got her ass, dude. How will she ever recover?
Maybe just kick her out like the Arab nations have done to her own people countless times?
Lots of people on the right use gab. I'd suggest checking it out if you wish to broaden your view of the spectrum of the right because your statement about this not being a both sides issue is objectively false. If you'd like I can post links to right-aligned posts and profiles from there that conflict with your original statement.
Based on their published user numbers, you can't say that "lots of people" of any ideological persuasion use gab.
20 million users a day is a lot in my book https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10390321/
20 million users a day is a lot in my book
I don’t know that less than 1% of Facebook’s daily user count is “a lot” in the grand scheme of things. That said…what % of those 20 million are located in the U.S.? And of that subgroup, what % are posting anti-Semitic content?
Oh, and of THAT subgroup what % are by individuals who you can confirm the identity of such that you know they aren't just anonymous trolls?
Sudenly anti-semitism isn't a big deal.
That statistic actually sources to an article by Longo (citation 36 in the article you link to). The source, however, does not claim what the Acampa, et al article says it does. Longo says 20 million hits per day, not 20 million unique users.
Pew Research does a better job and shows that only about 11% of the US population (which would be about 40 million people) have ever even heard of Gab and that less than 1% use it regularly. (The Pew study does not say how precisely much less but from context I suspect the answer is "substantially".)
Moreover, the characterization of Gab as "right" (much less "far right") is the subject of considerable academic study. As the authors of the very article you cited say multiple times, what they found on Gab did not match their initial expectations.
As the authors of the very article you cited say multiple times, what they found on Gab did not match their initial expectations.
So, like shrike, minnix doesn't read the articles he cites past the headline, either?
Feel free to provide examples or links. Nobody is stopping you.
I’m quite conservative leaning and nobody I’ve seen does.
No True Conservative!
Feel free to name one
https://gab.com/kingofnews
KingOfNews @kingofnews
???? Red Pill
QPatriots
Antisemetic as hell. Also rants about diversity and taxes.
You're welcome.
Who in the blue hell is "KingofNews"?
I'm citing politicians and student groups at major universities.
You're citing...a rando on Gab.
No new goalposts.
I’m quite conservative leaning and nobody I’ve seen does. is not about 'politicians and student groups at major universities.'
Student groups at universities? Whu does that matter? Oh, because you're overtuning at this late date in an attempt to shore up your argument.
Nope.
You do not see any respectable members of the Right who support Nazis.
You must have missed John Oliver’s recent report on the Republican mayoral candidate from Tennessee -- or the report on right-wing homeschoolers who pride themselves on being "actual Nazis."
A candidate for mayor of Franklin, a city with 85,000 people, and it was a mere refusal to disavow. What's more, the candidate lost, so she's just a private citizen with no power. Meanwhile there's an active Hamas Caucus in Congress. You have to reach pretty far down the barrel to find a whataboutism in this case.
Mere refusal to disavow? Watch the show.
Hamas Caucus? Seems unlikely.
Instead, you likely are referring to people who object to Israel's immoral, violent, lethal, right-wing belligerence and superstition-laced wingnut government.
How in the world can you not disavow Hamas at this point, and still claim to be on the side of civilization? How hard can it be to denounce terrorism?
Hamas is despicable. Nazis are despicable, too . . . But, as John Oliver deftly demonstrated, Nazis still have some fans in America.
Hamas seems to have a lot of fans on those institutions you love to crow about, you slack-jawed, slope-foreheaded hicklib.
Those American fans of Nazis support Hamas, and vote Democrat.
It's funny how eagerly Collectivists rally around people who commit atrocities! It's as if they hate all of humanity, or something, so long as it's not subjected to slavery by its "betters" -- which we all well know you fancy yourself as being.
People going ballistic about letters from students (and lying about politicians) don't really have the grounds to dimisss other actual incidences as irrelevant or marginal. If you were genuinely worried about anti-semitism, they would matter.
I saw the report that said every Australian who pretends to be a man of the cloth is actually invertebrate pond scum.
How did Australia get dragged into this, clinger? Did Jesus whisper in your ear?
If your best example of a "respectable member of the Right who support[s] Nazis" is a kook who lost her only campaign (for mayor of a podunk town) to another Republican in a landslide, that suggests the Right doesn't have a major Nazi problem.
Viktor Orban spoke at CPAC.
Steve Bannon is also a good one.
Marjorie Taylor Greene of the Jewish Space Lasers.
And Nick Fuentes seems to turn up at right-wing places with some frequency.
If only we could get a prominent Republican national figure to admit that he is a David Duke without the baggage.
Fuentes was booted out of CPAC.
Any thoughts on Democrats sucking up every four years to noted anti-Semite Al Sharpton?
"BUDAPEST, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Hungary will not allow any rallies supporting "terrorist organisations," Prime Minister Viktor Orban told public radio on Friday, adding that all Hungarian citizens should feel safe, regardless of their faith or origin."
He is on the right side here, no "both side-ism" for him.
You confuse his dislike of George Soros with a general hatred of Jews.
You confuse his dislike of George Soros with a general hatred of Jews.
Leftists have been lamely trying the "if you hate Soros you're an anti-semite" dialectic lately to little effect, because the vast majority of criticism of Soros on the right revolves around his funding of globalist NGOs, astroturfed protests (like the recent ones by SJP, for example), pro-criminal DAs, and his history as a currency manipulator with a god complex. He and his shills have to try and use his Jewish ethnicity as a shield to cover for the chaos and low-trust social environment his political activism has caused.
A Jewish globalist mastermind manipulating finances and plotting the overthrow of the good ol' USA hiding behind his Jewishness? I see.
Thanks for conceding the point.
You did all the heavy lifting.
You did all the heavy lifting.
If you recognize what a dog whistle is, that means you're a dog.
If you swallow the whistle every word that comes out of you is a dog whistle.
If you swallow the whistle every word that comes out of you is a dog whistle.
If you can still hear the dog whistle, that still means you're a dog.
Don't need to hear the whistle to see the dogs come a'runnin.
Don’t need to hear the whistle to see the dogs come a’runnin.
Except your side always says it can hear it.
Your yapping? Hard not to.
Steve Bannon is miles from a Nazi. A populist with a rather left-leaning economic belief.
MTG is also not an anti-Semite.
Orban? He dislikes Soros, as most people should, and is not fond of immigration, which is somehow an attack on Jews in some circles. You're stretching mightily to include him.
Steve Bannon is rarely more than a mile from a friendly Nazi, MTG loves going to white nationalist conferences and Orban is anti-woke. If you think anti-woke contra-indicates anti-semitism, you're believing your own bullshit.
Viktor Orban spoke at CPAC.
Orban isn't a Nazi, you guys simply don't like him because he doesn't knuckle under to the EU left-liberal consensus and kicked your criminal-loving buddy Soros out of the country.
Of course he’s not a nazi. He’s a hard right anti-woke authoritarian ultra-nationalist. Thye’re not all actual nazis, but they sure as heck aren’t friendly to the Jews because believe it or not, anti-lgbtq, racism, misogyny and anti-semitism all tend to go together.
'your criminal-loving buddy Soros'
Ah, the rich Jewish mastermind plotting against your pure white nation.
You mean like your buddies in SJP?
Also, thanks for the strawman boilerplate again.
The SJP are controlled by the Jews, I see. Go on...
You sure are obsessed with Jews.
On this thread?
Why are you so obsessed with Jews?
Why are we discussing Jews on a thread about anti-semitism?
Why are we discussing Jews on a thread about anti-semitism?
Why do you think anyone who criticizes Soros is anti-semitic?
Why do you think anyone who criticises Israel is anti-semitic?
Right!
Lots of Orban supporters here attacking the left for being the antisemetic ones.
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Hungarys-Viktor-Orban-fosters-antisemitism-563642
So, is Orban antisemitic? While it’s hard to answer that, he certainly has created an atmosphere that fosters anti-Jewish agitation among the nation. His adulation of Miklos Horthy, the war-time leader of Hungary, a self-confessed antisemite and friend of Hitler, adds to the feeling of mistrust.
Not antisemetic, but number one with antisemites!
Even one Bannon guy. Who has palled around with white supremacists across Europe.
And of course as noted above Fuentes is a legit ' I'm a Nazi' Naz who the right seems quite fine having in their camp.
Really telling on yourselves!
A bunch of students: ANTI-SEMITISM
Leader of a whole country, US right-wing politicians, people who pal around with said politicians, people who were in the last right-wing presidential administration: insignificant!
I thought we were arguing about right-wing anti-Semitism? Orban is a right-wing philo-Semite. Budapest is far safer for Jews then most (if not all) European capitals and Ivy League campuses.
For all the talk I've seen of the "horseshoe", I cannot help but notice that there are two types of "far right" philosophies. The first type is pretty much identical to the Far Left, in both rhetoric and action, and is only distinguishable in that they don't call themselves Communist, so Communists decide they are the "opposite" of what they believe in -- hence, Far Right instead of Far Left.
The classic example of this is Nazis, who are ultimately as controlling as any Communist society, and just as atrocious and abominable.
The other kind of "Far Right" is the libertarians -- the guys who believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and will insist that Government be limited from violating these things -- and that people should be free to act for themselves, hence creating a "free market". Because this is the direct opposite of what Communists and Nazis believe, Communists call these people "Far Right", but the fact is, there is no way for a government to be simultaneously respectful of the rights of the Individual, to commit the atrocities that either the Far Right or the Far Left have committed.
Fun fact: Individualists, by and large, are not anti-Semitic, but the Collectivists of both the Far Right and the Far Left are -- and are for much the same reasons.
Amen.
I knew the left fringe hated Israel from like the 60s.
I knew there would be some shittiness online, but the volume of Hamas support, while still small but loud numbers and in no way controlling the Democratic Party, does have me surprised and disappointed.
The tricky part is, of course, defining 'far left.'
Some on here seem to include all Democrats, professors, and immigrants in that set.
Those people are just suborning an actual problem into their own partisan jollies and are no ally of the Jews or Israel.
I'm not exactly sure how to deal with this, but a new McCarthyism is not it.
"no ally of the Jews or Israel."
Unlike you, right?
Jews, like most people, deserve to be treated with respect (and should not be afflicted by bigots, in particular).
Israel has become a bunch of right-wing assholes whose record -- settlements, superstition-laced government, annexation, parasitic religious kooks, dispossession, far-right belligerence -- deserves no subsidy from Americans.
Well I'm a Jew, you can start by not calling me a "Klinger", "Coach".
Was Golda Meir a "Right Wing Asshole"?? She was a friggin Socialist, didn't keep her from ordering the Assassination of the fuckers responsible for the Munich Massacre
Frank
Golda Meir predated Israel's belligerent and obnoxious right-wing assholes -- Netanyahu and friends -- by a substantial period.
Ah, the classic repeating of lies to justify terrorism. Classic anti-human.
But what should we expect from a Communist Nazi Democrat bigot like you?
For 40 years. The Trump-loving Bibi saw the way he worked, and Hey! Let's make the courts subservient to me. The attack has put off his ouster and eventually a jail sentence.
I mean, I try, yeah.
I don't use Israel or Jews as instruments to push my partisan hatred du jure, so at least I have that over you.
I'll tell my wife, whose family fled Germany in spring, 1939, that I'm just using Jews as an instrument.
Immediately uses his wife's family's suffering as an instrument to justify his genocidal hatred of the Palestinians. Masterful gambit!
I call them like Insee them. Stop blaming immigration and DEI and the Ivy League for antisemitism.
Your favorite targets turning up as the cause of antisemitism is not hard to read.
"I call them like Insee [sic] them."
Sure, sure. Just an honest broker.
Yes, I am.
I get why that would be hard for the likes of you to believe.
It isn't left v. right. It's good v. evil. Freedom is good. Tyranny is evil. Freedom is messy. So it tyranny, but the mess is hidden. The organizing principle of tyranny is to take power from the individual, where God put it, and consolidate it in the hands of rulers. Our republic was founded by men who hoped to balance the power required to protect civil order and foster blessedness (happiness in the 18th Century) against the risk of losing freedom to government. They knew that our republic would only last as long as Americans were faithful to the Creator who blessed them with this land and its freedoms. Surely they would weep to see what has befallen their bright city on a hill.
Competent adults neither advance nor accept superstition-based or supernatural argument in reasoned debate.
Clingers, however, do it all the time.
You are clinging to the idea that Israel is the oppressor of the region, when everything points to the Palestinians as the true oppressors -- both of Palestine, and of the free-ish Israeli State as well.
I mostly just don’t like right-wing assholes, especially when they abuse others consequent to ridiculous superstition.
And it's clear for all to see that you think left-wing jerks who abuse others consequent to ridiculous superstition are just fine -- should be cheered on, even.
Fun fact: there's no difference between the "right wing" you say you despise, and the "left wing" you cheer on. You are bigoted Nazi Communist Democrat scum -- and the only thing keeping you from genocide of the "deplorable bitter clingers" you despise is the fact that they will without hesitation use the weapons they "bitterly" cling to, to prevent themselves from being shepherded into box cars.
Preach brother. The "Rev." is the very asshole he claims to abhor.
Are you 8 years old?
Some of his victims are
Yogis dad's victims? What do you know about Yogis dad that we do not, dumbass?
Many words to say that evil is bad. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke may never have said or written exactly those words, but the maxim is valid. You must take up your cross in this world.
You want to...do what to the 'far left?'
Yes, you are an idiot. The cross is the symbol of suffering and redemption. Take you puerile sarcasm somewhere else.
Naw dude, what's the practical upshot of your comment about good and evil and good men not doing nothing?
You seem to be saying the far left is evil. So what actions are you advocating?
Or did you not think that though?
Think how much better our world would be if every cross became a Stones logo overnight!
The cross is the symbol of suffering and redemption.
To Christians, yes.
I wonder what this post will do for the wacko MAGA here who keep calling Prof. Somin a leftist. (Answer: nothing. If facts swayed their opinions they wouldn't be MAGA in the first place.)
I don't think he's a leftist. I just think he's obsessed on the topic of immigration, to the point where he can't think straight.
What do you call someone whose reaction to the 10/7 massacre is: "Let's bring a bunch of Palestinians here!"?!
OK, forget about "leftist," how about just "deranged"?
Fuck off commie, you want to blame the whole political spectrum you better bring the receipts for the whole spectrum, not just your allies on the left. Until then, I'm not paying attention to your dishonest bloviating.
Also, seems like this could be solved by open borders between Gaza and Israel, right Ilya? Or is that just the only solution when the destination is the US and specifically places in the US that punish your ideological enemies.
Open borders are only for the USA! Ukraine and Israel are different for reasons that will be explained at a later date!
Me: "I wonder what this post will do for the wacko MAGA here who keep calling Prof. Somin a leftist. (Answer: nothing. If facts swayed their opinions they wouldn’t be MAGA in the first place.)"
Social Justice is neither:
I rest my case.
The question is what to do with them = far left that supports Hamas, the destruction of Israel (and by extension, the USA)
The question is what to do with them
Government can't and should not do much. But everyone else can choose not to platform them or work with them.
"What views?
Oh, you know the ones."
Same thing we do with right-wing bigots, religious kooks, and other losers.
There is exponentially more evidence of the Israeli government supporting and funding Hamas than there is for “Western far-leftists” supporting the group. Regardless, if you’re serious about explaining why the Palestinian cause in general (though not Hamas in particular) is gaining support on the left, and indeed in American society more broadly, you’d better include the fact that Israel has trapped 2 million Palestinians in a hellish prison without adequate food, water, medicine, or electricity into your analysis. Anyone who would omit or downplay such a central fact is doing propaganda, not serious thinking on the subject.
"There is exponentially more evidence of the Israeli government supporting and funding Hamas than there is for “Western far-leftists” supporting the group. Regardless, if you’re serious about explaining why the Palestinian cause in general (though not Hamas in particular) is gaining support on the left, and indeed in American society more broadly, you’d better include the fact that Israel has trapped 2 million Palestinians in a hellish prison without adequate food, water, medicine, or electricity into your analysis."
Hamas trapped them there. Specifically prevented civilians from leaving.
And Hamas has adequate food, medicine, and water ---- they just stash them in tunnels for their military.
Hamas prevented civilians from leaving? When? How? Anything at all to support this claim?
Would seem to be a bit redundant if anything, what with Israel having built a cage around them, and shooting anyone that tries to leave.
Egypt has said it will allow Americans civilians (many dual citizenship
Pal/USA) trapped in Gaza on Oct 7 to enter Egypt. Hamas won't let them leave,
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/foreign-nationals-blocked-from-leaving-gaza-by-hamas-report/ar-AA1j3iFc
Unless you're limiting your claims to things that happened over the last three weeks, this continues to be a lie. Palestinians have been free to leave to any country that will take them.
What you apparently mean is that Israel won't let them enter Israel. But that's not surprising, given their genocidal ideology. Which predates the blockade, which was the result of Hamas taking power, not the cause.
More lies as usual. Israel does not simply keep them out, it prevents them from traveling anywhere else, including the West Bank. Not can they travel elsewhere by flight (air blockade) or by boat (naval blockade).
Very few Gazans would want to live in Israel. But they do want to be able to buy food, housing, medicine, and water, which Israel’s blockade prevents them from having. No amount of obfuscation you gin up changes this basic truth.
Did you somehow never look at a map?
Brett looked at a map and now he knows everything.
Yes, I’ve looked at a fucking map. What’s your point? That Gaza borders Egypt? Well Egypt has worked hand in glove with Israel for years to enforce the blockade against Gaza. So again, what’s your fucking point.
Imagine being so smug while also being such a buffoon.
…but very many Gazans want to live in the place that is now Israel once it is cleansed of Jews. No amount of obfuscation you gin up changes this basic truth.
As I said, Palestinians have been free to leave to any country that will take them. Making antisemitic arguments about how the Jews secretly control Egypt doesn't change that.
Now it's antisemitic to point out that other governments work with Israel on joint projects and operations. You are beyond parody.
“that’s not surprising, given their genocidal ideology. Which predates the blockade”
The actual fuck are you talking about?? The median-aged Gazan was not even born yet when the blockade went into effect.
I'm talking about Hamas. The de facto government of Gaza. Do you have any idea about anything that has happened in the Middle East in the last 100 years, or are you just spouting leftist slogans?
I agree that the atrocities of Jewish Terror Organizations (JTOs) like Haganah, Irgun Awai Lemui, and Lohamei Herut should not be forgotten: it is the "cohesiveness of the terrorists and their sophistication" that led to the creation of the Jewish State we now know as Israel (see, for example, https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/jewish-zionist-terrorism-and-establishment-israel). The fact that the terror organizations have been fused into a single organization with a euphemistic name -- the Israeli Defense Force -- neither diminishes the atrocities nor increases the morality of the terrorist acts. "Peacekeeper missiles" sell much better than dirty ole' MX missles, after all.
"What is the cause of this moral deformation?" A venerable and sincere self-perceived entitlement felt by some Jews does seem to lead to a moral deformation: a Jew who believes he has the right to kill so that Israel may exist believes himself morally superior to a Muslim who believes he the right to kill so that Palestine may exist. As an earlier post today notes, this feigned moral superiority has isolated Jews for centuries, just as similar "By-God entitlements" have isolated other religious groups.
Did the Branch Davidians have a God-given right to land and weapons? Why would we, as non-Branch-Davidians, attack a religious group; that is, was it their religion/culture or their illicit behavior that drew our reprimand?
Hey I think I spotted a far lefty here!
Somin’s post is well-written.
Ultimately, I think I prefer an evolutionary/biological explanation for antisemitism.
Animals, where humans are the most prominent, are always scanning the environment for threats. The human brain is a pattern recognition tool that is especially attuned to anything threatening. (You may notice this on social media, where attacking someone may be more likely to get the attention of someone than being nice.)
Antisemitic literature claims to present patterns that paints people of Jewish ethnicity as a threat. Ultimately, such literature is not supported by the evidence, but those with more rigid thinking on the far left and the far right are unwilling to abandon it.
It might be noted that those on the far left and the far right have something in common, they are attuned to what they view as massive threats from other humans, and their views can even be apocalyptic. Both also seem to overly embrace simplified narratives based on broad generalizations dividing society into good and evil.
The difference between the left is often simply the source of the dire threat. For the far-left, the main dire evil threat is often capitalists or capitalism along with the far-right. For the far-right, the main dire evil threat is often communists or communism along with the far-left.
When people are in the mindset of overestimating a threat, their thinking is more rigid and their actions more extreme. They also are less likely to change their minds about something being a threat, because having detected danger, they are likely to be subject to various psychological biases, such as confirmation bias. In general, an organism under threat tends to take a more narrow than broad-minded perspective.
It has often been noted that the far-left and the far-right seem to strangely be able to merge into each other ideologically sometimes. That seems surprising to the extent that one relies on the “ideological spectrum” where far left and far right are modeled as being “far away” from each other. But if one relies on an evolutionary or threat-based psychological framework, perhaps we would see greater similarities in the mental state of the far-left and far-right compared to people who are more towards the center, whether left or right.
“For the far-right, the main dire evil threat is often communists or communism along with the far-left.”
Lately, many on the “far right” haven’t been very keen on modern capitalism either, at least in its modern woke, worker-unfriendly manifestations. While many on the far left seems strangely willing to work (if not trustingly) with woke-italists, and to focus more on their pronoun policies than on worker rights.
If it’s evolutionary to see threats and conspiracies, I don’t think self-proclaimed moderates are exempt. Jesse Walker has made this case in his book about conspiracies – the “center” is prone to conspiracy thinking. For example, anti-semitism used to be more mainstream in the “center” than (I hope) it is now.
Fair points. My discussion was simplified. My point is that rather than just focusing on political explanations, we may want to also look at evolutionary, neurological, and psychological explanations.
'I think I prefer an evolutionary/biological explanation for antisemitism.'
Oh God.
If anti-semitic literature is persuading people that Jews are a threat, then it's the literature that's spreading ant-semitism. Also, somebody sat down and wrote that literature. People do that for their own ends, and not exclusively about Jews. Witness the idea that covid vaccines were poison. (Which isn't to say that such a conspiracy theory can't develope into anti-semitism - most conspiracy theories do.) It suited somebody to whip up that fear and capitalise on it. It's entirely cynical and self-serving to scare people into giving you money, voting for you, or attacking your enemies. These things also take on a life of their own and become ingrained unquestioned personal beliefs. Ordinary people who are not especially far out on either end of the political spectrum have these unquestioned beliefs.
"Why would Western far-leftists have any sympathy for such a movement? . . . The answer comes from the old adage that the enemies of our enemies are our friends."
Not really. It comes from the old adage "give me liberty or give me death." Everyone on the left knows Hamas' political program is horrible, and no one wants it. But if you are a young Gazan patriot who wants to fight for the emancipation of his people, they are the only game in town. In fact, Israel itself has made sure of that.
Most Hamas fighters are young men who, because of Israel's 17+ year blockade, have never left the 125 square mile hellhole in which they were born. They've grown up malnourished, without medical care, and drinking water unfit for human consumption. 85% of Hamas fighters have had their father, mother, or a sibling killed by Israeli bombs. And when they try to protest nonviolently, Israeli soldiers shoot them.
Every person of conscience is revolted by the way Gazans are treated by Israel. That Hamas engaged in butchery and brutality does not change this baseline fact. Just as the brutality and religious extremism of Nat Turner and John Brown did not deter the abolitionists, no one on the left is going to excuse the imprisonment of 2 million Gazans merely because of Hamas' excesses.
That's neither true nor relevant, since the topic was "far left" support for Hamas, not Gazan support for Hamas.
I know this is a foreign concept for conservatives, but many other people (and particularly those on the left) do this weird thing where they see the humanity in other people, sometimes other people who are very much unlike them. Sometimes this is called solidarity, sometimes empathy, sometimes just imagining oneself in the shoes of someone else. That probably helps explain why many leftists see things that way, even though they are not themselves Gazan.
But they’re a slightly different color?!? It’s impossible to have empathy for someone who’s a different color, you know. It's a biological fact. In fact, you’re antisemitic if you do that.
I just thought Leftists had shit for brains = do weird shit. Sort of like, you know, the Trannies for Hamas group. Not to worry, Hamas set them straight with a public statement.
"Sure they're Nazis, but we'd be bigots if we didn't take darker-skinned Nazis side on disputes!"
We know they aren’t Nazis, in part, because you and the rest of the Volokh Conspiracy aren’t supporting them.
…except Jews, of course. They're "exhilarated" when Jews are murdered.
Nah, you're just wrapped up in this false "oppressed/oppressor" duality and use that to convince yourselves that you have "empathy," when it's really just your way of fitting everything into that dumb box. That's why you get "Queers for Palestine" despite Hamas openly despising them as twisted, mangled deviants; they think they're acting in "solidarity" with the "oppressed" side of the duality.
It’s called having principles, you wouldn’t understand. There’s nothing less dualistic than opposing the mass killing of people, some of whom, supposedly, hate you.
Lol,. please. That dumb dialectic has no validity. It's just a Marcusian pose of double standards masquerading as "liberating tolerance."
See? Knew you wouldn't understand.
Yes, your side certainly hates having its own repressive tolerance given back to it.
Sorry your mouth's full of straw, try again?
Sorry you hate the taste of your own medicine.
Sorry you were having a completely different conversation with a completely different person the whole time.
Sorry your side is a cancer on human history.
Imaginary cancer and imaginary side.
Israel has done more to help the people of Gaza than Hamas has -- and Israel has done so, depsite Hamas's favorite pasttime of launching rockets into Israel and killing civilians.
It's far past time we justify evil by saying magic words like "colonialism" and "oppression". Hamas has demonstrated beyond a doubt that they are far more barbaric than anyone in Israel, and they are proud of their atrocities. They deserve to be destroyed.
'Israel has done more to help the people of Gaza than Hamas has'
Israel literally suported Hamas.
So have we, actually -- and Pretendant Biden is looking into how we can continue to support Hamas, or at least, Hamas's sponsor Iran.
It's becoming increasingly clear that the only way to find peace in this conflict is to completely destroy Hamas -- and to make sure Democrats never come to power again in America.
'So have we, actually'
Not true, except inasmuch as the US supports Netanyahu, not a trivial point.
'and to make sure Democrats never come to power again in America.'
Blaming the Democrats for a hard-line right-wing Israeli government's actions? Bizarre.
"Not really. It comes from the old adage “give me liberty or give me death."
Then give them death.
Israel gave them liberty 18 years ago and that worked out ever so well, the West they so despise has been feeding them ever since, and perhaps it is just time to kill them all like the rabid dogs they are.
The fact that no other Arab country will take them speaks volumes.
"perhaps it is just time to kill them all like the rabid dogs they are."
Somebody else though. You're too much of a coward to do anything except post your fascist genocidal fantasies on the internet. A pathetic impotent excuse of a man.
I don't see you taking up arms against Jews, so it's clear that you are a coward, too.
Calls for the end of Israel’s massacre of civilians from the loony leftists at *checks notes* the Financial Times:
https://www.ft.com/content/4668c628-9a5d-48d2-989f-90773ac2e25b
Paywalled, but at least the FT has no interest one way or another in placating rich Muslim nations.
Ah, the financiers...
"... relatively non-foolish socialists ..."
"Karl Marx ... exemplifies this tendency."
Hmmm... The man's economic theories have been proven spectacularly wrong. His political theories have caused countless deaths every single time they were put into practice. I'd say Prof. Somin is being too generous.
re: "the left-wing ... general tendency to excuse or minimize atrocities by those ... see[n] as being on the right side of history"
compare:
"I reject the filthy slogan 'The end justifies the means.' ... The end does not justify the means; you cannot achieve anything good by evil means." (Ayn Rand)
Wait, wait. Did you type that with a straight face?
Great summary. What is different today, at least in the US is the nonstop leftist propaganda k-12. College freshmen are well primed for their further indoctrination. Lots of conservatives are rightly concerned about pornography in school libraries but we ought to be focused on the larger picture. Groups such as Education for Liberation Network is working in every state to embed “social justice” activism in social studies standards. https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/education-for-liberation-network/
The goal is to turn students into activists, not to teach them history or even how their government works. Most people think that curriculum is locally determined. Occasionally people get exercised about national standards but the real work is done by well funded organizations, including teachers unions based in state capitals.
"Most people think that curriculum is locally determined. Occasionally people get exercised about national standards but the real work is done by well funded organizations, including teachers unions based in state capitals."
Yeah, here in SC a few years back, the state legislature got upset about "Common core", passed a law declaring that the state would not use it, and created a committee of educators to create a state standard in its place.
They copied Common Core, had a good laugh, and went home...
People have been describing how young men in particular are being radicalised online, into racist, misogynistic, anti-semitic, Islamophobic views, but you still think the main problem is that schools teach that slavery was bad. Don't worry, Republicans will have Prager U sort all that pesky educational wrongthink out in no time.
Hahahahaha... stop I can't breath... Laughing.
Funny how "activists" on the left have no guns and did not storm the capitol.
It's been my observation, (Not that it's original to me.) that all totalitarian movements tend to converge. There's just not a lot of room to be totalitarian differently, beyond some cosmetic distinctions. They'll all want secret police, they'll all want censorship, they'll all be intolerant of any independent power centers.
The "horseshoe" has been bent closed, essentially. There are a lot of ways to be free, but really only one way to enslave.
One of the uniform requirements of a totalitarian movement is a designated enemy. In principle it doesn't matter who the designated enemy is, but you have to pick SOME enemy to make the people hate, because they ARE going to be unhappy, and if you don't direct that unhappiness, it's liable to end up pointed at their real oppressors, the totalitarians themselves.
Jews, regrettably, make for a good designated enemy.
1. They're a minority. That's pretty important.
2. They're generally successful.
3. They're distinctive enough to be identifiable.
So, why far left anti-Semitism? Because the far left are a totalitarian movement. That's all.
How the fuck you didn't drop dead of irony overload after typing this is beyond me. Incidentally, we've had weeks of 'the children of Gaza are marinating in hate therefore it's ok to kill them.' Netanyahu knows a designated enemy when he sees one.
Who's said it is OK to kill "Children" in Gaza?
Leftists seem to think it is OK to kill children in Israel, however.
Conservatives tend to put the blame for any deaths where it belongs --- Hamas. The party who initiated the conflict and has done all they could do to make the risk of kids dying higher.
Anyone who supports the bombing campaign thinks its ok to kill children in Gaza.
'Conservatives tend to put the blame for any deaths where it belongs'
Ah, a designated bad guy and sin-eater whose existence is license to do what you want, no matter how many children you kill. Brett will recognise that.
"Ah, a designated bad guy and sin-eater whose existence is license to do what you want, no matter how many children you kill."
Sort of like what your side did through most of the 20th century.
My side? Librarians?
Marxists also start playing dumb as part of their dialectic as well.
Oh, you've made up stuff in your head about me, how sweet.
Marxists also try and deflect when their ideology is pointed out.
Ooh, non-falsifiable strawmanning.
Sort of like the false oppressed/oppressor duality.
You're so desperate to have an argument about it that you literaly have to provide the words yourself.
No, we don't like any killing of kids I'm a lefty but I would slap Obama's face for his drone killings of children. But 40 years of Arpathid has made Israel the bad guys. They can kill with impunity faster than Vallejo PD. Photographers, bullets. Young American women, bulldozers. Sure, Hamas started this one. 40 Israeli incursions in 20 years. GOP goys hate Jews at home it's when they can send money spent on US weapons they love the Israeli wars.
'there has been much shock and dismay about Western far-left support for Hamas,'
it is shocking, but we're seeing plenty of people accusing anyone who thinks bombing Gaza is a bad idea of supporting Hamas while ignoring massive Jewish presence in anti-bombing rallies. These extremists seem to love the big explosions and body counts.
‘I do not mean to deny that there is also a horrific history of right-wing anti-Semitism, culminating in the Holocaust’
Lest we forget. It’s far-right US extremists supporting a far-right Israeli government in their current military campaign following a pattern of far-right nationalistic militarism in response to atrocity we’re already familiar with, AND WE KNOW HOW THAT WORKS OUT.
It’s perfectly standard to meet with critics who think Israel’s reaction to the latest attack is excessive. Nothing new about that.
I hadn’t previously heard about the attempted mainstreaming of proterrorist and antisemitic thinking, as with the idea of celebrating the terror attacks, blaming them on Israel, saying the whole state of Israel should be abolished, etc. This is getting to be mainstream in certain circles.
'I hadn’t previously heard about the attempted mainstreaming of proterrorist and antisemitic thinking,'
Remember when you guys mocked people for saying that having Nazis on places like Twitter or profiled in the media was a bad thing?
Perhaps ask your fellow leftists to cut it out with the "Death to Jews" graffiti on buildings and all.
And their repeated calls to wipe Israel off the map.
Perhaps you could tell your far right friends to cut it out with killing thousands of children.
To be fair, they have a ways to go to catch up with your far left friends.
My alleged 'left friends' are supposedly daubing horrible graffiti on walls not killing anyone, didn't you read the comment I was replying to?
Your left friends are also simping for people who think you’re a bunch of flatulent deviants. And par for the course with marxists, you believe anyone not parroting your line is “far right," based on your belief in a false oppressed/oppressor duality.
YOU think we're a bunch of flatulent deviants, I would oppose you getting bombed, too.
Hamas thinks you're a bunch of flatulent deviants. They said so themselves.
And you don't disagree.
They're not wrong about everything.
See? I would oppose the bombing of you.
No, you wouldn't. You tend to get extremely agitated when my side beats your side.
Course I would. Hey, everybody, don't bomb this guy.
Meanwhile:
"The National Muslim Democratic Council, a nationwide group of Democratic leaders and activists, threatened President Joe Biden that if he does not force Israel to reach a ceasefire with Hamas, a U.S. State Department-designated foreign terrorist organization, by 5 p.m. ET on Tuesday, they will work to mobilize against him in the 2024 presidential election."
LOL. LMAO, even.
Good for them. People with a bit of backbone.
They're talking about turning swing states red, goofy.
I'll bet. Red states will be using the same arguments about Ukraine for Israel in a few weeks.
As long as it hurts your side, it's automatically good.
If you can remember what you're supposed to believe on any given day, I'm sure it's great.
"Anything Nige argues for" is a great reverse barometer.
I'm sure that and many other fascinating metrics are how you do your thinking.
An interesting article. One comment though: I find it strange that Ilya describes the Nazis as far-right when talking about Holocaust. Aren't they also far-left / socialists? In general, if one decides to stick to a simplistic one-dimentional political space, I think that polar coordinates are a better way to describe it than Cartesian.
'Aren’t they also far-left'
No.
It’s really funny how hard it is to distinguish Nazis from Communists, though, when you’re limited to judging them based on rhetoric, policies, and the levels of atrocities they commit.
It's actually very easy to distinguish between them, but that would require looking at the actual historical record, not the script you're writing to avoid the fact that the Nazis were right-wing.
Oh, I have looked at the historical record, of both Nazis and Communists. It's the biggest reason why I cannot distinguish between them.
For all this talk about National Socialists being lumped together with libertarians, of all people, as "Right Wing" -- I have to ask you this: what atrocities would Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, China, Cuba, et al, have been able to commit, had they followed the Bill of Rights as "diligently" as America has? (And yes, America hasn't always been true to the Bill of Rights -- ignoring the Bill of Rights is the foundation of American atrocities.)
Somehow National Socialism (which was what the Nazis were) have become right wing, when it and fascism were both types of “3rd Way” socialism meant to be an alternative between communism and capitalism.
Part of the problem is that communism is also called socialism, and welfare states are also called socialist. Socialism gets thrown about inaccurately, but National Socialism was actual socialism, the government and corporations worked hand in hand. They also had a massive welfare state
'the government and corporations worked hand in hand.'
Which is the opposite of socialism.
Nah. It's just socialism by a different means. It's government control of the means of production -- "You'll do what we say with your business, otherwise it will be sad that something happens to it" -- and it's just one form of total control that both Nazis and Communists have used, depending on what was most convenient at the time.
No, it's literally the opposite of socialism. It's extremely right-wing to hive everything off to private companies.
You may be willing to split hairs on how government gets its fat fingers into the pie of controlling everyone's lives, but the fact is, libertarians don't advocate for "partnerships" between Government and Business -- libertarians advocate for government getting the heck out of the way of business. Calvin Coolidge is a classic example of this -- and FDR is the classic example of spending so much time meddling with business, that he caused a depression to last an entire decade.
Government control by any means is government control. And people who want to wrest control from private entities will do so by any means necessary, including maintaining an illusion that "private" business is still "privately" controlled.