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Do Religious Schools Have a Right to Exemption from State's Pronoun Policies?
From Friday's opinion by Judge Daniel D. Domenico (D. Colo.) in Darren Patterson Christian Academy v. Roy (for more on a different facet of the case and on the possible relevance, or not, of government funding, see this post):
"[T]he First Amendment protects an individual's right to speak his mind regardless of whether the government considers his speech sensible and well intentioned or deeply misguided and likely to cause anguish or incalculable grief. 303 Creative, LLC v. Elenis (2023). "Generally, too, the government may not compel a person to speak its own preferred messages." Indeed, the Court held in 303 Creative that Colorado could not compel a wedding-website designer to create websites that did not discriminate on bases similar to those at issue in this case.
In an even more on-point case, the Sixth Circuit held that a public university's requirement that professors use a student's preferred pronouns in the classroom amounted to a Free Speech violation. Meriwether v. Hartop (6th Cir. 2021). That case involved a professor plaintiff at a public university who declined to use a student's preferred pronouns, instead seeking to refer to that student in name only while referring to other students with pronouns corresponding to their biological sex. That plaintiff faced even more obstacles than Plaintiff would here in proving a Free Speech claim given the various doctrines limiting the ability of public-school teachers to bring First Amendment claims. Even still, the Sixth Circuit held that compelling such speech violated the professor's free-speech free exercise rights. [The words "free exercise" seem to have been erroneously included here by the court. -EV]
The Ninth Circuit has also arrived at a similar conclusion in a related context. They held that an Oregon anti-discrimination law requiring a "natural-born-female-only" beauty pageant to allow transgender contestants violated the pageant's expressive free-speech rights. Green v. Miss United States of Am., LLC (9th Cir. 2022). As the Ninth Circuit noted, this accorded with its "long-standing hesitation to enforce anti-discrimination statutes in the speech context."
Given these authorities and Defendants' failure to rebut the substance of this claim at all, the Court finds at this time that Plaintiff is likely to succeed on the merits of its Free Speech claim at least as to part of its policies. The anti-discrimination provisions at issue here mirror those found in 303 Creative, Meriwether, and Green. And, if applied to Plaintiff in the ways it credibly fears (i.e., at least as to its policy regarding pronoun usage), those anti-discrimination provisions would likely be unconstitutional, as the similar provisions were found to be in the aforementioned cases.
Some more from the opinion on the underlying government program, and on the government's decision not to make any substantive First Amendment arguments (see here and here) and to focus instead on procedural arguments (which the court rejected in a separate part of the opinion).
This academic year Colorado implemented its new Universal Preschool Program—a program that allows certain preschoolers to attend the preschool of their choice for free. Plaintiff is a private, Christian preschool currently participating in the program. As a condition of participating in the program, schools like Plaintiff must agree not to discriminate on the basis of a number of statuses, including religion, gender, sexual orientation, and gender identity. Pursuant to its faith, however, Plaintiff … requires its staff and students to abide by certain policies determined by biological sex rather than gender identity…. Plaintiff seeks a preliminary injunction allowing it to continue participating in the program while abiding by its internal policies regarding … student conduct.
Here, Defendants have made no argument on the substance of any of Plaintiff's First Amendment claims. In their response to the preliminary-injunction motion, Defendants' arguments regarding this first injunction factor exclusively focused on standing and ripeness. The same is true in their reply. While Defendants assert that they "absolutely do not concede the merits and are prepared to defend the merits should this case move forward," they've provided no argument on the merits for purposes of the preliminary injunction motion. Thus, it seems, Defendants have effectively stipulated to Plaintiff's characterization of the law for purposes of the preliminary injunction motion for "merits" issues other than ripeness and mootness….
{In any event, Plaintiff has met its burden not only to show standing and ripeness but also a likelihood of success} on the merits of its Free Speech claim, at least to the extent that the state would require Plaintiff and its staff to use a student's or employee's preferred pronouns as a condition of participating in the program.
Note that the precedential force of this case is likely to be lessened in some measure by the state's not raising any substantive First Amendment arguments.
David Andrew Cortman, Jacob Ethan Reed, Jeremiah Galus, and Ryan Jeffrey Tucker (Alliance Defending Freedom) represent plaintiff.
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Without diving too deep into the merits of this case ...
I am somewhat concerned about the rigor of this analysis. Not just because of the procedural posture (a court that reaches such a sweeping conclusion when one side only argued procedure) ... but just looking at this excerpt, the Court relied heavily on Meriwether v. Hartop ... a case that was premised on the academic freedom of university professors ... and that then chose to apply that case, without any real analysis ... to this case.
Trump judge. Go figure.
The reliance on 303 Creative is also puzzling.
But it's an anti-trans result, so don't expect Eugene to engage in a substantive critique. The First Amendment is especially solicitous when it comes to free speech and free exercise claims from people with weird hang-ups about LGBT people.
"The First Amendment is especially solicitous when it comes to free speech and free exercise claims from people with weird hang-ups about LGBT people." Ding ding ding ding!! Eugene's laser focus on this very narrow aspect of 1A jurisprudence is notable.
Let's bring back gaybashing. /sarc
The First Amendment is especially solicitous when it comes to free speech and free exercise claims from people with weird hang-ups about LGBT people.
The First Amendment, which guarantees religious freedom, is, and should be, especially solicitous when the case is a combination of free speech AND religious freedom
And when it comes to "weird hang-ups", nothing beats the delusion that your feelings create an obligation in everyone else around you, while their feelings don't matter at all.
Agreed (plus, I think Meriwether was wrong because refusing to use a student’s preferred pronoun strikes me as targeting the student for disparate treatment).
But that being said, I have sympathy for the position that in most contexts (not including government employee speech), an anti-discrimination law which requires people to speak a pronoun they don’t want to violates the First Amendment’s prohibition against compelled speech.
So, after reading the opinion, I am increasingly concerned that the judge in question REALLY wanted to issue this opinion.
The reason that the state concentrated on the procedural arguments is pretty simple- there was no complaint. There was no issue. There is no factual record. I understand that in a FA case, you can often get past this (facial challenges, etc.), but I see a lot of perfunctory analysis by the judge, and a lot of questioning the motives of the attorneys who made the arguments as opposed to actual engagement with the procedural issues.
Perhaps most concerningly, the judge included (and RELIED UPON) a press release issued after the evidentiary hearing. In other words, the judge decided that the he would, sua sponte, look at evidence not submitted by the parties at the hearing, and instead look at a press release from a political body after the hearing - without any opportunity for counsel to address the fact that it is completely irrelevant.
Again, this doesn't have to do with the merits of the issue. I agree with Josh R that in terms of the legal issues, it can be tough; compelled speech is anathema generally, although in different contexts it can be allowed (disclosures, or workplace speech, or restrictions on speech that amount to compelled speech).
Do you know what would be helpful here? An evidentiary record.
I am open to the possibility that the plaintiffs manufactured a policy that Colorado didn’t actually have and should have lost on standing.
How much of an evidentiary record do you expect at the stage of motion for a preliminary injunction?
Likelihood of success is one of the factors in deciding to grant the injunction, so unless you know the procedural arguments are a slam-dunk, you should at least provide some rebuttal to Ps substantive case.
It's a pre-enforcement challenge, so it won't be historical evidence, but cites to relevant decisions or statutes.
Well, I normally expect some facts. Such as an actual event. An actual plaintiff. Something that, you know, happened. And then there would be a hearing (using affidavits/declarations at a minimum) based upon those.
Again, if you read what I wrote, you would see that this is a facial challenge that occurred without any complaint or enforcement, which is why the state was making the procedural arguments of standing and ripeness.
Which makes the judge's use (and reliance) upon a press release that occurred after the hearing even more problematic. Judges normally rely on the evidence submitted by the parties- they don't go and sua sponte look for evidence after hearings to support a particular side.
Seems to me this only follows once you buy in to the--I think specious--concept that everyone has "preferred pronouns."
The rest of the kids in the class haven't expressed any "preference" at all, so if a teacher addresses every last child using the pronoun reflecting their actual gender, that's treating everyone equally, not accommodating some students' "preferences" while denying others.
“…reflecting their actual gender…”
No, their actual sex.
Normal English speakers do not, when they select pronouns, attempt to identify the gender of the person they are referring to, they select pronouns according the the sex of the referent (as best they can estimate it.)
“Misgendering” is a myth. It literally never happens.
As to the rest of your remarks, you are correct.
The state is free to define discrimination to include not using the preferred pronoun when the preference is known, or to use the pronoun corresponding to gender identity unless the student requests otherwise. All of which is a quibble which missed my point: academic freedom isn't an out.
Maybe, but you were referring to a much less arbitrary standard based on disparate treatment, so that's what I addressed.
Addressing the first sentence in your post that started "Agreed (plus..." is a quibble? Maybe you should have left it out.
There is disparate treatment between cisgender and transgender (only the latter is referred to by pronoun that does not match their gender identity).
There is disparate treatment between cisgender and transgender (only the latter is referred to by pronoun that does not match their gender identity).
Referring to everyone by what they are vs what they believe themselves to be does not discriminate against anyone. What you're demanding is special treatment, not equal rights.
Sigh. More question begging (WuzYoung assumes the pronouns refer to sex).
Sigh. More question begging (WuzYoung assumes the pronouns refer to sex).
I don't assume anything. I'm a fluent speaker of English, and I know what they refer to...and have always referred to...in the context of addressing/referring to human beings. Your refusal to recognize a fact does not magically render it no longer a fact.
I think I'm going to start a Kirkland-style count of the number of days you just paste this same tired rhetoric without actually defending your position. It's almost as though "everyone gets to define their own reality and all others must defer to it" is indefensible.
WuzYoung assumes the pronouns refer to sex
Is it not the speaker rather than the listener who determines what his words refer to ? A trans person might misunderstand what the speaker is referring to, or a trans person might prefer that the speaker refer to something other than what the speaker is actually referring to. But it is hardly discrimination on grounds of gender identity if the speaker chooses to refer to sex rather than gender. (Chooses here includes doing what comes naturally.)
There's no "but for" here. If the speaker refers to trans-boy Bob as "she" - (since Bob is of female sex) - Bob would not have been referred to as "he" but for Bob's transiness. The speaker would refer to Bob as "she" whether Bob is trans or cis.
A violation is whatever the state regulation of its employees defines it to be, which may or may not take into account the speaker’s viewpoint. Assume the regulation says there is a violation when an employee uses a pronoun that doesn’t match the student’s gender identity.
True. But in the above regulation, but-for Bob being being trans, there would have been no violation. Thus, there is disparate treatment which would defeat the academic freedom First Amendment defense.
A violation is whatever the state regulation of its employees defines it to be
Sure, but in this case the judge describes the rule thus :
As a condition of participating in the program, schools like Plaintiff must agree not to discriminate on the basis of a number of statuses, including religion, gender, sexual orientation, and gender identity
I'm saying no more than that if the rule requires you not to discriminate on the basis of gender identity, using pronouns to refer to the referant's sex does not fall foul of it.
(And also in this case, this is not a regulation covering state employees, it is a regulation covering the employees of any organisation receiving state funds for pre school purposes.)
From the opinion:
My reply to Life of Brian on "disparate treatment" was in reference to why I thought Meriwether was wrongly decided. It was not a comment on this case.
Agreed (plus, I think Meriwether was wrong because refusing to use a student’s preferred pronoun strikes me as targeting the student for disparate treatment).
That's because you're a deranged lunatic.
Demanding that someone use your delusional "preferred pronoun" is you demanding that you receive "disparate treatment". So FOAD. you will be treated the same as everyone else
Actually I think academic freedom, as constitutional doctrine, is bullshit.
It like qualified immunity is judge made.
I do think University professors do have robust free speech rights, just as I do, but I don't think they have special constitutional protections, nobody does except Congress as defined in the speech and debate clause.
However religious preschools and of course there teachers have special statutory protection provided by the RFRA, or in this case it's state analog if it exists, which I kind of doubt given Colorado's record on religious freedom.
"Not just because of the procedural posture (a court that reaches such a sweeping conclusion when one side only argued procedure)"
Sorry, your decision to be stupid doesn't constrain anyone else.
The State conceded everything the Plaintiff had to say abotu Free Speech, by their decision not to oppose any of it.
When BETTER to have a "sweeping" conclusion, than when both sides agree won the key issues?
TIL there is such a thing as a "state pronoun policy." Carry on, lunatics.
What happens when you declare War On Pronouns.
O Tempore, O Mores.
Preschools don't need pronoun policies. Leave the children alone, perverts.
Why didn’t Colorado’s lawyers make any merits argument? I suspect the reason is that after 303 Creative, Meriwether, and Green, they realized they didn’t have one to make.
But if that’s the case, why did they litigate the case rather than concede it? To avoid the plaintiff collecting prevailing-plaintiff attorneys’ fees?
I have to say, it does seem a little perverse that Colorado is muscling in on preschoolers.
Not getting into a mess like this would seem a good reason to avoid sending your kids to public schools. It would certainly interfere with parents’ ability to raise their kids as they see fit. But the whole point of this lawsuit was that Colorado, apparently, said you can’t avoid it…
That said, I’d be open to the possibility that there really was no such policy and the plaintiffs twisted things to create an impression there was one.
Practicaility is, as many of the foregoing comments note, a factor. And perhaps practicality is a deeper factor than known at first glance.
Free exercise works in part because Congres and the Courts have properly refrained from intruding into speech including even religions speech: the "long-standing hesitation to enforce anti-discrimination statutes in the speech context" is appropriate.
But free exercise also works in part because Congress is prohibited from funding, in whole or in part, _any_ state-sponsored religion. For example, if my religion demands that I periodically dance the Tarantella (an expressive act, rather than "pure" speech) over all the land now known as Philadelphia, Congress is generally prohibited from fulfilling my request for funding for weapons to annihilate all persons standing -- passively or aggressively -- in the way of my sacred dance... that is, unless Congress finds a crafty way to fund my religion without directly acknowledging my religion or to prevent my opponents from prevailing in Court.
Does the free exercise clause loose some degreee of credibility if the legislature aids me in smiting those who dane to inhibit my freedom of dancing over Philly, thereby (at least implicitly) favoring my religious whims? When other-than-expressive conduct has the effect, even if not the stated intent, of favoring one religion over another, does Congress have the power to fund such conduct?
Wrong question.
How can a state possibly think it has the power to regulate speech?
This blog is apparently the best right-wing law professors can manage at this stage of the modern American culture war.
Which is great!
So when I was a kid and you called a boy a girl, that was matter for a visit to San Quentin !! A man in a dress is a man in a dress. Why should what you call yourself heve precedence over what they rest of the world sees that in fact you are.
Sam Brinton is not a woman
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Sam_Brinton.jpg
The major point everyone is overlooking - preferred pronouns, by definition, are not fixed. You may change your preferred pronouns hourly, daily, weekly, ad infinitum. Likewise, gender identity is fluid. How one identifies today is not fixed, otherwise it wouldn't be "fluid."
Ergo, sans name tags, how is one to know?
And the emperor still has no clothes.
The major point everyone is overlooking – preferred pronouns, by definition, are not fixed. You may change your preferred pronouns hourly, daily, weekly, ad infinitum. Likewise, gender identity is fluid. How one identifies today is not fixed, otherwise it wouldn’t be “fluid.”
Well, there are two main concepts in play :
(a) the redefintion of terms and the policing of language, and (b) the matter of what, if anything, “gender” is
As to the language, I don’t think that the fluidity implied by “preferred’ is the main point. To my mind, the main point is the extremely illiberal notion that somebody else’s preferences as to what words you use, or matters you discuss, should be weighed in the balance against your liberty to say what you want. It’s not just pronouns, it’s any figure of speech to which someone else objects. Nor is it confined to speech about sex and gender, it applies to anything.
As to the mystery of “gender”, I think that there is a valid point – that no enthusiast for the concept seems – so far – to be able to come up with a coherent description of it, that lasts from sentence to sentence and paragraph to paragraph.
But there is also an invalid point – that one gender enthusiast will often say something that directly contradicts another gender enthusiast. But there’s no reason why all gender enthusiasts should think the same thing, and be consistent with each other. Thus there is a brand of gender enthusiast which is indeed big on the idea of gender fluidity, an ever changing flux that could have those preferred pronouns hopping from one thing to another by the week. But there are other brands of gender enthusiasts who insist that there’s an internal sense of gender that is innate (or at least develops sufficiently early to get imprinted into the brain architecture.) These gender enthusiasts are not big on fluidity. They’re big on the reality of gender as a genuine and consistent mental trait, not something made up on the fly.
Just because Milton Friedman and General Franco are believed to inhabit “the right” that doesn’t mean they agree with each other on anything very much – other than that standard leftist prescriptions are a mistake. So it is unreasonable to expect consistency from them. Likewise the disparate bands of gender enthusiasts.
after over 40 years of thinking, discussing, reading on the topic, What is the single most important move to make the world better, it is clear to me now. It is religious freedom. And that by a country mile.
Why would you be sending your child to a religous school to begin with if 'it' were a psycho-sexual mess ???????
If Sam Brinton or Dr "Rachel" Levine come to my house they are men, sick men, but still men
Show this to 100 children and report back to me
https://interactadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr-Rachel-Levine-AHS.jpg
Superstitious bigots and other gullible right-wing dumbasses are among my favorite culture war casualties . . . and the core of movement conservatism.
Mandated use of a person's self-defined pronouns by an instructor would open a can of worms. Imagine a class of 20 wise assed teens all changing their preferred pronouns a few times each hour with at least a half dozen completely new ones each day.
My religion demands I address people honestly.
So therefore I'm religiously entitled to an exemption and allowed to refer to students by "Little Shit #1", "Bedwetter #2", etc.
No, the anti-trans bigots don't have a better argument. They want to be hateful for the sake of being hateful, not because of some legitimate compulsion to not afford someone the basic respect of referring to them by their preferred name and pronoun. So if students are not owed that respect, there's no legitimate case for not referring to students by accurate terms like "Crybaby #9".
THe law is undeniable in these cases, as this related Amicus Curiae tells Ask yourself WHO is benefitting from these cases ?
"The Court of Appeals also ignored relevant legal context and background.
Scardina admits to demanding the cake because of the message it expressed: the
“pink interior and blue exterior” were “intended for the celebration of my transition
from male to female,” Scardina said. Ex (Trial) 46. The demand was made on the
day the U.S. Supreme Court granted cert in Masterpiece I. Scardina had already
emailed Phillips to call him a “bigot” and volunteered to become a complainant to
the Civil Rights Commission, and then later demanded another custom cake
depicting Satan in order to “correct” the “errors of [Phillips’s] thinking.” Pet. for
Writ, p.9. Scardina was trolling for a legal case, targeting Phillips for his religious
beliefs and his role in an ongoing national controversy.
To deny that this case was a setup, 2023 COA 8, ¶80, and to divorce the pinkand-blue cake from its broader social, cultural, legal, and factual context is to play
the ostrich. That’s what the Court of Appeals did last time, in Masterpiece I. This
Court should not overlook the error again."
Lawyers who are perverts do not get EXTRA assistance. Scotus has reprimanded the Colorado judges 3 times. I would put them in jail now.
I know you teach law but really.
Where is it established that schooling is for accomplishing a "pronoun policy" ??????????????????????
As you suggest, pronouns are ingrained early and hard. Keeping a battalion of neurons ready to police that, is a battalion that is unavailable for other educational tasks. Not to mention the walking and the gum chewing. Look for bruises on the teaching staff, where they have walked into lamp posts.
Moreover, a school that decides that its teachers should always avoid using pronouns may find they have bequeathed their pupils some pretty weird verbal tics.
Unless of course the children absorb what is usually absorbed from this sort of policing – that which is forbidden MUST be done as much as possible.
Very possibly, but consider how often you naturally use he, him, his, himself, she, her, hers, herself, it, its, itself compared with anything denoting race (polite or otherwise.)
Well that's not an issue in this case is it?
The use of a word to that is unacceptable in any context, can't really be compared to using a word that could and is used dozens of hundreds of times a day with no objection.
I was called "Asshole" all the time as a child, it wasn't my preferred pronoun but back then they didn't give a fuck what kids wanted.
I know, my mom's been fucked by all your spook friends, that's called a "Pre-emptive" racial comment, don't make me escalate to the MLK Jr. Bu-fooing Floyd George level.
Frank
Saying a "child’s preferred pronouns" is like describing a "vegan cat", we all know whose idea it is.
They’re talking about the child’s preferred pronouns
No shit, Sherlock. As Bob said, it's like saying "vegan cat". IT'S NOT REAL! Leave the children alone, pervert.
Preschool children don't have preferred pronouns. Children that age understand and use me, I and mine. They are learning you and yours and are beginning to understand we. But it you're not talking to the child, they couldn't care less. The pronouns everyone is so worried about are not used in English when talking to the person.
To be blunt, "butt out, I'm not talking to you right now" is a perfectly acceptable answer to anyone worried about pronouns.
My pronouns are the pronouns I choose to use when I'm speaking. They're not yours, his, hers, its or theirs. They're mine.
Your pronouns are the ones you choose to use when you're speaking. You have no rights in any pronouns other people choose to use when referring to you (or anyone or anything else.). Likewise nouns, adjectives, verbs, gestures, drawings, whatev.
So no, they - the pronouns being policed - are not the child's pronouns. They're the teacher's pronouns.
Because they're fucking pre-schoolers, they don't get to say if they get chocolate milk or plain (do they still let children drink Milk? I heard a rumor it comes from Cows) And if little Richard wants to be called "Rachel" to effing bad, I wanted to play catcher and infield, but because I was born a person of South-paw-ness I was regelated to the Outfield, First, and Pitching, nobody gave a shit about my "Preferred Baseball Positions" (it's still that way)
Frank
Preschoolers with trans identities? Really?
preschooler to say their preferred pronouns
GTFO. Stop, just stop. Preschool children do not have preferred pronouns. Stop trying so hard to stick your shit in children.
Some people use racial slurs naturally . . . and habitually . . . and repeatedly . . . and purposefully.
Much like a "child's preferred church," "child's love of mass," or "child's choice of superstition."
Carry on, "Klinger"
But that proves nothing unless you say there are all good people or all bad people.
Some people do almost anything you can imagine.
Child's asses were what got you where you are today, "Coach"
Demonstrating neatly that if you choose to refer to Brian as "she" that's your business, not Brian's. Listeners can form their own opinions of you, and Brian, accordingly.
You admitted up top that you couldn't do it.
After all that work and change.
All that entirely pointless work and change.
Fine, in the sense of “whatever floats your boat.”
I’d think you were a bit of a weirdo though, since there’s no conceivable reason to call me Leia. And so obviously I wouldn’t be seeking you out for those repeated interactions that you mention. Or rather you’d have to have a truly spectacular pair of legs to make your weirdness worth bothering with.
Whereas there are excellent reasons to refer to tall people as “tall”, male humans as “he”, and people whose name is George as “George”.
Although if George is a bit of a prat, it wouldn’t be weird to call him “that prat” whether he likes that or not. Which he probably wouldn’t.
It would be weird to call him “Leia” for no reason though, but the weirdness would reflect on you, not him.
The point you're still missing is that Lee might have a reason to object if you called him Leia when talking to him but he has far less reason to get wrapped around the axle by what you call him when talking to others. Until you get to outright defamation, one could argue that he has no valid reason to care.
English first- and second-person pronouns are not gendered. Third-person pronouns are gendered but are not used when talking with the person to whom they refer.
And yet you said it anyway.
This is fantastically, pointlessly obtuse. Kudos.
If preschoolers have no preferred pronouns what the fuck is the problem?
There’s an excellent reason, Lee and Leia are very similar, and you strike me as feminine.
Well, as I say, whatever floats your boat. If that seems an excellent reason to you, go with it.
Well, that’s what I could reasonably say.
You could say it, but we both know that you couldn't reasonably say it. But reasonable or not, it's yours to say.
But if you told me you identified as a guy and preferred Lee I’d be quite an asshole to keep calling you Leia.
But I don't identify as a guy, I am a guy. And I prefer Lee because it's my name. And if you insisted on calling me Leia even though my name is Lee, and I'm a guy, you wouldn't be an asshole, you would, as I say, be a weirdo. Well you might be an asshole in the sense that you might be doing it simply to try to annoy me, and maybe there are people who would be annoyed by it. But weirdo or wannabe asshole, the solution is the same. Ignore them.
Because *you’re* the referent. It’s you I’m taking to it about.
Who's it ? In any case if you're talking to "it" about me, why would I have any input into your conversation with "it" ? I'm not involved.
I might not like some of things you say about me, if I get to hear about them, but that's how social interaction works. I don't get to police your association with "it" and you don't get to police my interaction with whoever I am associating with.
I agree with you as a matter of grammar, but in the context of this debate I don't think it's of critical importance. Although it's referred to as a debate about pronouns, it extends beyond pronouns - eg to whether and when you may or may not refer to someone as a man or a woman, or male or female.
The push is really to try to prevent references of any kind to another person's sex, whether to their face or not, if they "identfy" as a member of the opposite sex. And to police this, we have to move the milk out of the dairy, not the cat. We are supposed to pretend that such references are universally applied by reference to a person's "gender identification" - rather than to the objective reality of their sex.
It's the old 1984 theory. If you can't say it, it becomes unthinkable, and eventually the concept will wither away. Which obviously it won't. Because it (sex) is not a creation of human culture but of nature.
As a teacher, your employer decides what is the appropriate language to use when you are on the job.
I was talking about the overall push to police speech about sex.
But in this particular case, if I understand it correctly (and it is quite possible that I don't) the government-licensed non governmental employer is presumably content to let the teacher refer to the child by its actual sex, and it is the government which seeks to coerce the employer into enforcing the government's preference. Thus in this case it is the government, not the employer, which is policing what is appropriate language for the employer's employees.
Whether it is entitled to do so, as a condition of delivering funds, we shall see. I predict with yuuuuge confidence that the 10th Circuit will say that it is so entitled. We will then see if SCOTUS wishes to have a say too.
"Treatin'" ain't "bein'."
We are of course capable of pretending, either legally, or socially, or psychologically, that things that are not so, are so. Maybe sometimes there's good reasons to try.
But insisting that everyone must go along with the pretence, and say that they believe in it, is neither liberal nor sane.
Men are not women, and women are not men. That is a fact, not a statement of values. Maybe at some times and for some purposes, some of us may see value in treating a man as if he was a woman, or vice versa.
But to say that it is not actually so, as a matter of fact, is not an example of the naturalistic fallacy. It's just the facts. And as I say, insisting that such facts may not be mentioned is howling at the moon.
biology, no more than tradition, must inflexibly rule us. YMMV.
No, reality's mileage actually does vary. Tradition can evolve over a cultural timespan. It is to some extent flexible.
Biology is inflexible. It certainly has some weird eddys and currents, and innumerable complications, but anisogamy has been around for a very long time (indeed it has evolved several times in different lineages) and it’s not going away any time soon.
Sex and sexual differentiation is real, and it’s not only baked into our bodies (and into the bodies of all anisogamous species) but also into our brains and behavior. And – until the gene splicers up their act another notch, humans are going to need one partner of each sex in order to reproduce.
I appreciate, of course, that many people regard reproduction as peripheral. Surely where you place reproduction’s importance is a value question ? Who’s to say that reproduction is more fundamental than new sonnets or new dance moves ? Well, reality says so. No more reproduction and your supply of new sonnets and dance moves dries up.
In certain – fundamental – respects, like reproduction, biology rules. Inflexibly. Everything about human society rests on it. Beetle society too.
In other respects, like sonnet writing, biology is more flexible. Only humans write sonnets – that’s biology. And they usually write them about maidens and swains, which has a strong biological (reproductive) theme. But length, choice of metaphor and so on – biology will cut you some slack.
You are begging the question. Whether "man" and "woman" is based on phenotype, genotype or cerebrotype is a matter of opinion (and values), not fact. Employers or the government when they provide the money (*) may have a different set of values than you do.
(*) I express no opinion on the First Amendment question of whether the government's values should prevail in this case.
No. You are confusing semantics with reality.
The fact that some people prefer to use words like "man" and "woman" to refer to things other than "adult male humans" and "adult female humans" does not get rid of the concept of "adult male humans" and "adult female humans." These items are real objects in the world, whatever you choose to call them.
That these categories are real is obvious from the fact that reproduction cannot occur without one of each of these objects.
"Cerebrotype" humans do not come in pairs (or threes or sixes) that can perform any function that could not be performed by any other combination of types. (I leave aside, for today, the fact that we are still awaiting any kind of coherent non circular description of what these "cerebrotypes" refer to.)
That is not to say that you cannot use "man" and "woman" to refer to your definition of "cerebrotype" humans, whatever that is. Go right ahead. You are free to call giraffes "pigs", and bacon "sugar." Perhaps it'll catch on.
It's just that this is all quite irrelevant to the fact that the traditional concepts still exist and describe categories that have permanent relevance in the real world.
"Men are not women, and women are not men" simply states that the biologial categories are real, and describe a critical differentiated function in biology. If in 200 years, language has moved on and I need to say "Thrembals are not sothrembals, and sothrembals and not thrembals" nothing has changed about the proposition, or its truth. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
You just doubled-down on begging the question, this time by assuming what "male" and "female" mean.
If I recall correctly, last week you lobbed the same phrase back at me about 3-4 times on this topic. Do you have any arguments in support other than "yes it is" and "you're begging the question"?
And you're still confusing semantics and reality.
"Male' and "female" - or whatever you would prefer to call them - are still real concepts representing real categories in the world.
At the current rate of willing descent into mental madness, the timeless children's riddle "if you call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" will soon be answered with a joyous chorus of "FIVE!!!" (Conveniently, the same "correct" answer that Winston finally gave up and traced in the dust.)
When someone begs the question (assumes their conclusion), it's not a valid argument. I am merely pointing it out when it occurs. Lee keeps on repeating his conclusion about what male and female are:
Don’t go nuts, Josh. Never mind the semantics. Have you now joined the ranks of those who say that anisogamous sex differentiation is not a real thing, and the two different sexes required to form a new zygote are merely human cultural concoctions ?
Of course not. Phenotype and genotype sex differences are real.
But, the semantics (“male”, “female”) are important. It appears you insist that they are to only be used to describe the above sex differences. Others, including me, disagree.
Semantics are important in that if we are to have a sensible discussion, we have to understand what concepts are being referred to. Just as if I was speaking French and you were speaking English. The receiver has to translate the transmitter's message into something he can process.
But in this little theadlet - after you started claiming I was begging the question - I have repeatedly made it clear that I am referring to the underlying concept of sex and that you are welcome to use whatever terms you like.
These items are real objects in the world, whatever you choose to call them. ....
That is not to say that you cannot use “man” and “woman” to refer to your definition of “cerebrotype” humans, whatever that is. Go right ahead.
“Men are not women, and women are not men” simply states that the biological categories are real, and describe a critical differentiated function in biology. If in 200 years, language has moved on and I need to say “Thrembals are not sothrembals, and sothrembals and not thrembals” nothing has changed about the proposition, or its truth. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
“Male’ and “female” – or whatever you would prefer to call them – are still real concepts representing real categories in the world.
"It appears you insist that they are to only be used to describe the above sex differences."
No. How can you possibly imagine this when I keep repeating the opposite ? When I speak, I use "man", "woman", "male", "female" in their traditional biological sense. Because I think that's the most sensible way to proceed, both because it's the historically and currently normal usage (though as I say that might change) but also because - as we have discussed - the genderish usages seem to me to be incoherent.
But - as I keep saying - you are welcome to use these words however you please. I do not insist that you adopt my (ie the traditional) usage.
So when I say "men are not women and women are not men" I am making an entirely factual statement and not begging any questions. All you need to do to understand it, is to accept that I am employing the traditional usage - that these words refer to sex, and translate it into whatever usage you employ to describe the concepts that I am describing.
When I hear “men are not women and women are not men” without the caveat, "these words refer to sex," I think you are dismissing the possibility that a man (sex) can be a woman (gender identity) because the statement as you intended it is trivially true and uninteresting to the debate.
the statement as you intended it is trivially true and uninteresting to the debate.
Queenie's argument was that we are not slaves to biology and that socially and morally we can treat men as if they are women, and women as if they are men, if it seems propitious to do so.
My point - stated very explicitly - was that, yes we can do that, so long as we don't lose sight of the fact that we are only treating men as if they were women etc.
Thus the banality of the reminder that in fact they are not. "Treatin" ain't "bein'" - I said. Sometimes it is necessary to state the obvious, lest the contrary be believed.
(Which I find myself obliged to do again now - "men" and "women" in this comment are - obviously - being used in the traditional sense.)
When I hear “men are not women and women are not men” without the caveat, “these words refer to sex,”
No such caveat is required when one is dealing with someone who is reasonably sane and has an IQ north of room temperature.
I highly doubt Queenie is arguing that we should pretend that a transgender woman’s sex is female. Perhaps instead Queenie was saying the terms “men” and “women” should not be used as slaves to biology, and you can thus truthfully refer to a transgender woman as a woman.
Perhaps instead Queenie was saying the terms “men” and “women” should not be used as slaves to biology, and you can thus truthfully refer to a transgender woman as a woman.
Queenies says a lot of disingenuous and downright stupid things. The terms "men" and "women" have well-defined meanings. Your desire to pretend that they don't...or shouldn't...mean what they mean is as pointless as it is stupid. You're just trying to alter language to accommodate mental disorders.
Leia and Lee share a majority of letters, so they’re objectively similar.
This is the basis for the reasonableness of your switch ? As in “and” and “ant” are objectively similar ? Maybe you want to polish this argument up a little before you expose it to public view.
Sure, when you’re a kid, you can be bullied and insulted – though with boys it’s more usually physical, while girls tend to prefer the verbal stuff. Nobody bothered trying to bully me in school, because I’m not, and never was, very Leia-like. That you detect feminine characteristics now reflects no more than my generally good spelling. You probably need to get out more.
But returning to the point, there are a thousand ways for schoolchildren to tease or bully their schoolfellows with words. Probably the least likely approach to choose to really sting someone would be to call a boy a boy, or a girl a girl. Which is what “trans-deniers” or whatever they are called, do.
If you’re looking for regular winners, try “fat”, “ugly” and “dumb.” But I’m assuming you’re now past the age of schoolyard taunts, and you don’t want to up your middle aged weirdo score any more. “Majority of letters” is quite enough for this evening.
Leave the children alone pervert!
You’re the one who wants so badly to control children’s orientations.
Control them? No, I want you, fucking pervert, to leave them alone. Just let them be children.
I’m not sure what you did in those long nights in sex segregated barracks that’s put this big up your…er, I’ll come in again….
This has been another episode of "Queenie's idiotic ramblings".
Some boys like “girl” things at a very young age and Vice versa, you’ve never seen that?
That's not a trans identity. That's children being children. Stop sexualizing children, fucking pervert.
Which argues AGAINST YOU , in 2 ways. 1) Either it means that there is no he or she ultimately or derivatively or 2) and why should it be either the state agent or the parent — a false choice that bewitches you. When Sam Brintion goes down my street 100 out of 100 (excluding the state agents and SB’s poor mother) say “there goes a sick MAN”
An religious preschool is hardly a state agent, legally or practically, especially in this case.
The parents pick the preschool based on their own criteria. The state then pays the school the parents chose. I can see many parents choosing a religious preschool precisely because they are not state agents.
The only parents who will be upset are the ones who chose the school for the sole reason of forcing them "to bake that cake".
'Biology is inflexible.'
What a profoundly weird statement. Every living thing on the planet that isn't a plant has a biology. The variations and adaptations are endless and constantly surprising.
'Everything about human society rests on it.'
New type of body fascist just dropped.
Deliberate misunderstanding Nige on top form again.
Biology is inflexible compared to tradition and culture. All those variations and adaptions have happened over millions of years. Human cultures blossom and die within a few hundred years at most.
And certain aspects of biology – like reproduction – are extremely inflexible. It is true that life has developed from bacterial gene snipping to fungal mating types to isogamy and anisogamy. As I mentioned anisogamy has evolved several times. But these changes come along very infrequently – like in the hundreds of millions of years.
New type of body fascist just dropped.
Talk me through what aspects of human society you would expect to survive, after human reproduction ceases.
‘Biology is inflexible compared to tradition and culture.’
So what? Biology isn’t destiny.
‘Talk me through what aspects of human society you would expect to survive, after human reproduction ceases.’
Talk me through who, exactly, is threatening to cease all human reproduction. Climate change might put a dent on it, if you actually give a shit.
I don’t even know why you’re hung up on reproduction. If people can’t eat, they die out. if people can’t drink, they die out. If people fight to many wars, they die out. If they poison the air, they die out. If an asteroid hits, they die out. Life’s so precarious and precious, let people have their fucking pronouns.
(I'm reminded of the famous Joanna Russ story We Who Are About To Die, where a group stranded on an alien planet decide they have to reproduce to create a little human society, but one woman refuses to let herself become breeding stock, even if it means the would-be colony dying out. Fuck the fascist principle that we are obliged to reproduce for the good of society.)
You said it was weird to say “biology is inflexible” in response to Queenie hitching biology to tradition as things that must not inflexibly rule us. I merely point out that tradition changes roughly a million times quicker than the biology of sexual reproduction. Biology is waaaay more inflexible than tradition.
I don’t even know why you’re hung up on reproduction. If people can’t eat, they die out. if people can’t drink, they die out. If people fight to many wars, they die out.
And that’s where you’re wrong. If people can’t eat, they don’t die out if they’ve managed to reproduce first. Likewise if they can’t drink, or die in wars. We all die. We only die out if we don’t manage to reproduce before we die.
Which is why reproduction trumps eating, drinking and surviving wars. Reproduction is the way living things overcome the inevitability of death. Hence as I said :
‘Everything about human society rests on it.’
Which is not fascist but obvious to the point of banality.
'Biology is waaaay more inflexible than tradition.'
And again I ask: so what? Just being human generally means being more flexible than biology.
'We only die out if we don’t manage to reproduce before we die.'
Chicken, egg. Besides, babies don't survive where there's no food, water, bad air or other conditions hostile to life.
'Which is not fascist but obvious to the point of banality.'
It is fascist if you use it as an excuse to go after a minority. Or force women to reproduce, for that matter. None of which is inconsistent with those evils being banal.
I skipped past this without noticing it :
Nige : Every living thing on the planet that isn’t a plant has a biology.
!!?*!???&!!??
And again I ask: so what?
So we are heavily constrained in our freedom of action by the fact that we are biological organisms. That need to eat which you mentioned comes from biology.
It's that same thing that irks so many students leaving college, that "the system' forces them into going and getting a job. A job that seriously interferes with what they'd like to be doing instead. Like partying or world touring or sitting in bars plotting the revolution. That damn need to keep eating. But it's not "the system" - ie the cruel and heartless way in which the patriarchy has rigged our lives. It's the much older system rigged by Mother Nature. You need to eat, you need to drink, you need shelter, you need to protect yourself from predators and disease. Or else you'll rapidly become a former biological organism. And in fact Mother Nature's gonna get you some time anyway. The clock is always ticking.
Mother Nature has you boxed in. That's reality.
Just being human generally means being more flexible than biology.
No. Our biology - big brains - provides us with more scope for flexible behavior than other animals, that's all. Our brains - supplied by biology - allow us to meet our biological needs more easily (in the conditions that our biology has allowed us to develop.) But Mother Nature is still in charge. All that partying in college - what's that about ? It's those sexual urges that she implanted in us. You think you decided to find that girl attractive (or that guy or whatever takes your fancy) ? Nah. You're dancing to Mother Nature's tune. Sure, because of the big human brain you get to improvise a bit. But the riff is supplied by biology.
‘So we are heavily constrained in our freedom of action by the fact that we are biological organisms.’
We do pretty well, despite such restraints.
‘But it’s not “the system” – ie the cruel and heartless way in which the patriarchy has rigged our lives.’
Wow, you’re reinventing Social Darwinism. Which helped bring about WW1! We invented the social safety net and socialised health care. We defy the idea that there is only one possible system and it’s dictated absolutely by nature and ideas of how nature works.
‘provides us with more scope for flexible behavior than other animals, that’s all’
I happen to think that’s a pretty big deal, personally.
‘You’re dancing to Mother Nature’s tune’
Oh God this is sad. Trans people can’t exist because they are in defiance of Mother Nature? Mother Nature doesn’t exist, it’s an anthromorphic construct created out of the pathetic fallacy. Gay people exist. Asexual and bisexual people exist. They’re as ‘natural’ as the rest of us, just slightly more rare. They can have their pronouns because nature doesn’t care.
If we are products of nature then everything we do is natural. Burning down our environment is as natural as preserving and protecting it. We’re supposed to be smart enough to tell which is a good idea and which is a bad one, and in fact we are. Having children is natural, having no children is also natural. We’re not ruled by nature, we embody nature, we are nature, and part of our nature is the capacity to rule ourselves. We can be flexible about pronouns, it's literally the easiest thing in the world and costs nothing.
Wow, you’re reinventing Social Darwinism. Which helped bring about WW1!
Kaiser Bill is on the phone and asks WTF are you smoking.
We invented the social safety net and socialised health care.
Just out of interest, why do we ever need health care, socialised or otherwise ?
We defy the idea that there is only one possible system and it’s dictated absolutely by nature
No, it's not dictated absolutely by nature. It is constrained by nature. If it is not consistent with nature, it doesn't work. It's that ol' spaghetti bridge across the Mississippi thing. Our minds can certainly conceive of such a wonder. It's just that it doesn't work in real life.
and ideas of how nature works
No, it's not ideas of how nature works that constrain us. It's how nature actually works. Changing our ideas of how nature works doesn't change the constraints by one single diddley squat.
I think we've stated our positions, now maybe you should try to bring this back around to whatever point you're making in regard to pronouns/trans people, whatever? Because this is just dorm-room philosophising now.
It's not that difficult really.
Queenie asserted (and you have been supporting her) that biology is not that big of a deal for us humans.
Y'all are mistaken. That's all.