The Volokh Conspiracy
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FIRE Letter to NYU School of Law About the Ryna Workman Pro-Hamas-Attack Speech Controversy
Here's the text of today's letter (see here for the full letter, including footnotes):
FIRE is deeply concerned by New York University School of Law's recent suggestion to The New York Times that it may be investigating student Ryna Workman for their protected political speech amid intense public and campuswide criticism for expressing views about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
"For legal reasons," NYU Law told The Times Wednesday, "we cannot comment on the specifics of any current student who may be under investigation. Speaking generally, all complaints of bias and/or discriminatory behavior are investigated thoroughly and in accordance with federal, state, and local guidelines, and the appropriate disciplinary action follows the outcome of that process."
This raises concerns because, where a bias or harassment complaint seems to allege no more than protected expression, the correct approach, under NYU's clear free expression promises, is to have administrators conduct a cursory, internal review. If that review confirms the submitter complains of solely protected expression, NYU can promptly close the case without ever notifying the accused student, while at the same time offering support to the aggrieved complainant. To be sure, NYU may face certain important obligations to investigate discrimination, harassment, threats, or other misconduct on campus—but it should not publicly launch investigations where allegations are comprised of nothing more than pure political expression.
That is because even investigations that ultimately resolve in favor of the accused can deeply chill campus speech. The inquiry in such a case is not whether formal punishment is ultimately imposed, but whether the university's actions "chill a person of ordinary firmness" from engaging in future protected activity. Consequently, NYU's public reference to Workman's speech as potential misconduct sends a chilling message not only to Workman, but to all students and faculty that they may face disciplinary action for engaging in core political expression. Notably, there is no suggestion in any of the public reporting that Workman engaged in any misconduct whatsoever.
Speech that may prompt a bias or harassment complaint often does not, in fact, come close to meeting the high legal bar for discriminatory harassment, which The U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights has said must include "something beyond the mere expression of views, words, symbols or thoughts that some person finds offensive." Likewise, in Davis v. Monroe County Board of Education, the Supreme Court set forth a clear definition of student-on-student (or peer) harassment. For student conduct (including expression) to constitute actionable harassment, it must be (1) unwelcome, (2) discriminatory on the basis of a protected status, and (3) "so severe, pervasive, and objectively offensive that it can be said to deprive the victim[] of access to the educational opportunities or benefits provided by the school."
Workman's reported statements, conversely, are the very sort of passionate, core political speech one might expect on a college campus. They are wholly protected even if other students found them offensive or even hateful. In the event such speech nonetheless prompts a bias report, it is incumbent on NYU Law to undertake a cursory review of the complaint before launching a potentially meritless disciplinary proceeding.
Investigations carrying the threat of disciplinary action would particularly chill law students of ordinary firmness, who frequently must disclose any disciplinary action when they apply to legal jobs or the bar. These students face additional incentives to self-censor rather than risk any kind of misconduct investigation that could forestall their legal careers. Yet law students, especially, must be free to debate the legal issues of the day without fearing institutional reprisal for engaging in protected speech.
At this moment of intense disagreement on our nation's campuses, students who care about the conflict in the Middle East are sharing their views with the passion and urgency a humanitarian crisis of this scale demands. NYU and NYU Law must act now with equal urgency to reassure Workman—and all students and faculty—that they will not face investigation for exercising their right to do so.
We request a substantive response to this letter no later than close of business on October 20, 2023, confirming NYU will publicly recommit to honoring its clear free speech commitments.
Sounds right to me. FIRE didn't discuss Workman's having expressed her views as SBA President, rather than as an ordinary student. But while I think the SBA (or any other student group) might rightly remove an official because of the official's speech, that should be a matter for the group, and not for a university investigation.
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I'm fully on FIRE's side with this one. As noxious as it was, it was still just speech. The opprobrium from fellow students, academics and employers will suffice
I also agree with you, but will go further.
These is no point to opprobrium. Instead, we should debate the issue and come to our own conclusions.
I also don’t think we should be acting as though the issue is completely simple. The establishment of Israel did displace people from their homes. While I am not deeply familiar with the history, according to ChatGPT, some of the displacement apparently involved the use of force.
If that is the case, it isn’t going to be surprising that the descendants of displaced people will feel emotional resentment. And, as we all know from experience, when people get emotional, they can go overboard. It is not like any human being I have ever known, including myself, has not overreacted in an emotional manner to an event.
Instead of reacting to overreactions with our own overreactions (withdrawing job offers, for example) we should seek to discuss the issue and seek to bring people’s thinking to a more rational place.
I don’t think Israel is totally blameless here. Israel conquered Gaza. Then it allowed Hamas to control Gaza without any need to be re-elected. That is an abuse of the right of Palestinians in Gaza to govern themselves in and of itself.
I understand that the Zionist movement was based on an understandable desire to re-establish a homeland. But there were people already living in the area where this homeland was to be re-established. (Who were the descendants of previous conquerors, rather than the descendants of angels.) Because there were people already living there who were displaced, certain moral obligations for their well-being were established. Ideally, the existence of Israel should benefit these people too. But if not benefit, at the very least not make them worse off.
Overall, I think Israel should start taking more responsibility for outcomes in Gaza. Both for its own security and for the well-being of residents there.
It is also quite clear that there are many types of people, including those who will not let go of grievances. Well, it is just a matter of logic that Israel has to defend itself against those who would use violence. And such self-defense will involve civilian injuries and deaths. But, just as Israel is doing, (despite some unwise statements by certain leaders) actions should be taken to minimize such injuries and deaths. But from a longer-term perspective, I believe that Israel would be doing itself a favor, the Gazans a favor, and the world a favor by doing more than going in, killing Hamas, and then exiting.
Biden has said it would be a big mistake for Israel to occupy Gaza. I think Biden is wrong. I think Israel needs to occupy Gaza, take control of military and law enforcement functions there, and establish a democratic system that allows the people there to govern themselves with a system of checks and balances that will help control single party control of government.
The alternative is what? Israel moves out, some sort of hostile “government” replaces Hamas (perhaps under a different name), probably without democracy, and the same pattern of economic isolation and resentment continues. It seems like Biden, although well-meaning, is calling for more of the status quo.
Anyway, back to the topic of this student. This person probably has some sort of emotional connection to the region. And so, she went off the rails. I don’t think we should characterize someone based on the most stupid thing they say in response to an extreme event. And there has been a lot of injuries and death on “both sides” but more significantly among innocent people who aren’t really on any side.
Let’s not be shocked that resentments still exist when dealing with such serious issues. And let’s use reason rather than opprobrium to deal with people who go overboard.
This woman, whatever her ridiculous statements, wasn’t the person who killed innocent people.
Your history makes it sound like Israel just decided one day that it needed more room. It rather glosses over the 6-Day War that led to that situation. At the time, the Gaza Strip was an Egyptian-administered territory and was being used by Egypt to stage troops for an invasion.
As to the history before the Arab-Israeli wars, you're doing yourself a disservice by trying to get your history from ChatGPT. I recommend instead A Peace to End All Peach by D Fromkin. The Israelis had no more real choice about their "homeland" than the people displaced to make that place. That was entirely a decision by the superpowers of the day.
It's also worth noting that the people already living there weren't really displaced - they were upset at being suddenly outnumbered by all the immigrants. Yes, there were some culture clashes that turned violent. There always are in such situations. Unfortunately, the neighboring countries fanned those clashes and undermined most attempts at integration. The "displacements" didn't happen until those clashes had already become irreconcilable.
Certainly European superpowers jumped at the chance to install a European Jewish state in the Middle East, but I doubt the plan would have gotten far without the support and lobbying of the Jewish population who planned to move there*.
Either way, I'm not sure how you think there were going to achieve "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" without displacing or repressing the current non-Jewish population.
As for immigration just look at the Americans freaking out over a trickle at the southern border. Now consider Arabs had foreign powers arranging a program of immigration to give another people part of their homeland (a religiously significant part at that). Is it that surprising that they tried to use their militaries to kick the invaders out?
* I don't really blame them. Europeans had been colonizing the Americans and parts of Africa for centuries. Not only would it seem natural to do the same, but the Jews really did have a strong case for why they'd need their own country.
The only reason the Jordanian (they're not Palestinians) even wanted it was because the land was now desirable after 50-60 years of irrigation and other infrastructure projects by Jewish emigrants from the Russian Empire.
It wasn't some homeland that the Palestinians have lovingly cared for.
My point isn’t who has a choice. Often, such discussions of choice are really about blame.
But blame isn’t the point.
My point is that one should seek to make their presence a benefit to or at least neutral to people already there.
That isn’t to blame. That is just pragmatic. When it comes to a complex history involving many people with different belief systems, there always will be blame to go around. But finger pointing is about the past, what is more productive to focus on is the future.
If one embraces the goal of making everyone better off and actually succeeds in making everyone better off, then you will have a foundation for people from future generations letting go of the past and instead focusing on more positive possibilities in the present and future.
That is part of what I am trying to say. This student, I suspect, has reasons for their resentment. Instead of reacting rationally to their emotion, the instinct is to respond with punishment. But I don’t think that is optimal in terms of transitioning people to a different way of thinking.
And ultimately, I think that is where this problem lies. In people’s heads. There is enough physical space for everyone and furthermore the presence of everyone can benefit everyone. But people need to see and focus on that potential.
Of course, I am not naive. I realize that people, especially when they mix religious fundamentalism with their views, can be quite stubborn. Some will cling to their grievances and the past no matter what. I would suggest though, that the dynamics that have trapped past generations don’t have to trap future generations.
Thank you for your book recommendation! I may read it soon.
This was incredibly dumb when you said it the first time, but one might chalk it up to not having thought about it for more than five seconds before you posted. But to repeat it a day or two later, after you've had a chance to reflect, makes you look, to put it delicately, like an idiot. I'd expect a more intelligent proposal from a middle schooler participating in Model UN.
Nieporent:
I am polite to you and most other people. I am not perfect, but I make an effort. If you want to explain your reasoning, you are welcome to. I will not, however, change my mind due to insults. Your suggestion that I am stupid or an idiot also lacks credibility.
Another insult will get you muted. Because these sort of attacks are not worth even thinking about. I do welcome substance, but not mindless vitriol. If you choose to use vitriol, I won’t say that you are stupid or an idiot as a result. Having observed your comments, I do not believe either assertion is true. But rather, I think you using the word idiot is an emotional indulgence.
And also a waste of time.
a) ChatGPT is good at a lot of things, but a primary source for history is not one of them. It will literally BS and make up facts.
b) Israel occupying Gaza is du... not smart. The US tried twice. In Iraq the government held, and elected one of the anti-American insurgency leaders. In Afghanistan it collapsed before the US finished leaving. You think Israel can somehow succeed in creating a friendly democracy where the US failed? The US was largely just a temporary foreign invader. Israel is literally the major foe who stole their land and blockaded their city for over a decade. There is no way they can install a friendly Democratic government, they can't even install a friendly dictatorship that will survive a week without them.
ChatGPT's picture of the history includes TIE fighters.
This. Welker is treating the situation as if Gaza is a crime-ridden suburb of Los Angeles where the local cops are incompetent/corrupt, and the county or state can just come in, displace the local PD, put a lot of cops on the street, arrest a bunch of gang members, and calm things down.
In actuality, Gaza is an enemy (de facto) country. Welker is proposing that Israel should've undertaken a full-scale invasion — kind of like now, but without the initial provocation of last week's attacks — declare martial law, and create a democracy (!) out of this. I'm not sure that Donald Trump's "Can't we just nuke a hurricane?" wasn't better thought out than Welker's.
Can't we just send the U.S. army into Mexico, take over their military and policing, eliminate the drug cartels, and create a non-corrupt government, rewriting their constitution and laws to prevent any more corruption? (That's crazy enough on its own, but to be analogous to Gaza the enemy drug cartels would have to be religious fundamentalists willing to martyr themselves, rather than merely thugs trying to make money, and would have to have the support of the bulk of the population.)
David, we did it to Japan.
We did it to Japan and it worked. And we had to feed them for at least a decade, maybe longer -- and we are still there.
And nuking a hurricane isn't as stupid as it might initially sound -- it was seriously considered in the Eisenhower Administration. The problem is -- in addition to the radiation -- is that a nuke simply isn't big enough. A hurricane is releasing the energy equivalent of a 10 megaton bomb every 20 minutes...
It would now be banned under international treaties but -- to one who doesn't know how much energy actually is in a hurricane -- it isn't inherently a bad idea, and fallout can be controlled.
Exactly. We did it in Japan.
What will happen without some sort of occupation and more fundamental change in governance is that the actions of Israel here are nothing more than performative politics.
More of an action to be seen as “doing something” rather than changing the situation in a more fundamental way.
The leaders of Hamas are all replaceable and will be replaced after Israel leaves. Or perhaps you will have a “new organization” that arises that calls itself something other than Hamas, but it will be fundamentally the same.
And again, the US failed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those seem like much more pertinent examples.
Japan never had a real grievance with the US or anyone else really. They just wanted in on the empire building game like all the European countries got to do. But post WWII everybody else lost their empires, and they had a nice stable society that could adopt Democratic institutions.
Gaza is completely different. They have a major grievance with Israel, occupying them for 10 years isn't going to make them forget about the blockade, settlement expansions, Nakba, or any of the other beef going on. There's no strong local governance institutions that you can co-opt for a Democratic government. And the Palestinians are only a small fraction of Arabs, meaning they're still going to be part of that wider Arab culture that is really pissed off about the Israel / Palestine situation.
There's only one way an occupation maybe works. You install a brutal strongman dictator, shower them and their secret police with money, and they go around torturing and executing anyone suspected of ties with Hamas. Note, this isn't some Saddam Hussein type since he relied on his Sunni minority base. No, you need someone with another level of nasty.
That might be able to keep the Gaza population in check, but it's definitely not some friendly democratic Palestinian state.
You actually do want a friendly democratic Palestinian state? Israel unilaterally withdraws to the 1967 borders, closing up all the settlements. The major current grievance will be gone and all you'll have is older folks talking about Nakba. I don't think that's a realistic political outcome for Israel, but you could see that possibly leading to a friendly democratic Palestinian state in a generation down the road.
You analysis presumes that the ordinary people of Gaza care most about politics rather than their own families and individual ambitions.
From what we know about human nature, that is false. But if people do not have an outlet for their ambition and energy, we shouldn’t be surprised if they look for someone to blame.
I think I have read that half of the population of Gaza is under the age of 18. Israel’s policies have likely unintentionally helped impose the grievances of the old on the young.
And the cycle will continue.
No,
My analysis presumes that the ordinary people of Gaza are like the ordinary people of anywhere else. They think justice is on their side, and will act accordingly, and when faced with a significant external foe they'll tend to choose strongmen.
The US elected Trump partly based on his promise to ban Muslims and to build a wall to keep out Mexicans. Now imagine that Muslim Mexican Settlers were building Settlements in Texas and using the Mexican army to push out Americans, who do you think they'd elect then?
I don't understand where you get the idea that Gaza will suddenly turn into a city of Ghandis if they're just given a few years of Israeli occupation.
I think that Israel (and maybe the UN) should go in and set up schools. Not to teach Hebrew but definitely to teach English and other stuff, including Western values.
Maybe residential, maybe not, but we tell the parents that if they want food, they'd better get their kids to school. It'd take a decade, maybe more, but soon you'd have young adults who know something other than killing Jews. Gaza has a beach and warm weather -- it wouldn't take much to be a mecca for Europeans in January. I'm not saying they'd have an American standard of living, but they'd be a hell of a lot better off than they are now!
Japan had a God-Emperor who represented universal authority, who had the power to order a surrender and have that surrender be obeyed by all. This presented widespread guerilla reseistance to the Americans that would likely have otherwise occurred.
Who in the current Gaza conflict has the power to order a permanent surrender and to order submission to and cooperation with the Israelis?
This “just go in and institute democracy” talk got us Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. It worked in countries with either a central universally accepted authority like Japan, or with both a total defeat and a sense of revulsion at their past like Germany. Otherwise, the Vietnam/Afghanistan/Iraq model seems to be the outcome.
Nieporent,
As you say, Gaza is a de facto nation. And if Israel doesn’t want it to be an enemy in the future, it is going to have to do a lot more than go in, kill some or many Hamas leaders, and then leave. Israel needs to engage in a nation-building project instead. One that makes it so that ordinary people in Gaza can realistically pursue their economic ambitions. The idea of exiting Gaza, leaving its people to wolves, and then blockading it is guaranteed to create the same conditions as before.
Ordinary people need an opportunity to pursue their ordinary ambitions. They also need to have a say in their own government. Otherwise, who are they going to blame? A bunch of miserable people looking to blame someone else for their problems is going to have predictable results. It is just a matter of time.
We did it in Japan. It can be done here.
The issue is that of Israel withdraws, it will need to blockade Gaza. That will perpetuate misery and poverty and resentment. That is exactly what Israel did this time.
Instead of withdrawing, Israel should occupy. That is necessary from a security perspective (even if you kill off Hamas’s leadership, it will either be replaced or Iran will find an equally bad organization to fund to take its place).
The underlying game needs to be changed. That means establishing democracy, re-establishing trade, and enabling economic prosperity for those not interested in engaging in terrorism.
The current momentum appears to be: to go in, kill a few or even many Hamas leaders, and then get out. That isn’t going to change the underlying situation and there will be a repeat of this same situation in the future.
The bottom-line. If you want change, decisive action is necessary. There is an underlying logic as to why these things keep on happening. And, ultimately, it has to do with creating a safe place for extremists right there in Gaza, which Israel will do just as soon as it pulls out and creates a power vacuum. The ordinary people of Gaza will be the victims too, as they will be denied a proper voice in their own government. The idea that a new generation of extremists will “learn their lesson” based in Israeli reprisals is wishful thinking. If anything, the reprisals are likely to create a new generation of people who will want revenge.
Attacking and walking away will not sustainably change the situation. That is nearly certain. If you want the same results, keep on making the same mistakes.
Note for future reference: ChatGP lies.
Further note: The "force" used to establish Israel was from the members of the UN. The Arab states were supposed to take those displaced and help them make new lives. But the Arabs were so sure they would destroy the new nation, they just stopped off temporarily in "refugee camps". OOPS.
Try some real research, going back past even the British Mandate. Look into which nations started the wars. Then focus a whole lot more on the area of Gaza, and who 'started it', and why Israel 'gave it back for peace'.
Are you saying that force was used against existing inhabitants or not? You put the word in quotes and I don’t quite understand why.
"I don’t think Israel is totally blameless here. Israel conquered Gaza. Then it allowed Hamas to control Gaza without any need to be re-elected. That is an abuse of the right of Palestinians in Gaza to govern themselves in and of itself."
Israel conquered Gaza? Then why is Gaza not part of the land of Israel? Israel ALLOWED the gazan's to elect Hamas. Are you arguing that Israel should have interfered in the Gazan's right to self determination (whatever that is)? Your position is that Israel abused the Gazan's (Palenstinian is a term made of whole cloth by the billionaire Yasser Arafat as there was never a country named Palenstine nor any culture identified as Palenstinian in history) by not interfering in the exercise of self determination? This paragraph alone tells everyone you should not be listened to.
"reported statements, conversely, are the very sort of passionate,"
"passionate", FFS
If seems that workman did more than express hir opinion. S/he represented the position of an organization without having polled the members.
Did you have the attention span to make it more than one paragraph in before commenting? Two? You sure didn't get to the end.
Drewski:
Can you make your point in a more kind way? In my opinion, it would be better if we did not talk to each other like this. Obviously, that is up to you and I respect your opinion, but that is my two cents.
Do you think anything in the FIRE letter implies that Workman polled the membership of their organization? If so, please identify the specific part that you think says that. If not, please clarify exactly what point you were trying to make.
And what ignoramus at FIRE thinks that a message calling Hamas's terrorism "necessary" and ending "[From the river to the sea] Palestine will be free" -- as Workman's column did -- is doing something other than calling for the extermination of Israeli Jews? Can they at least agree that such a call is a sound basis for a Title VII investigation?
And what ignoramus at FIRE thinks that a message calling Hamas’s terrorism “necessary” and ending “[From the river to the sea] Palestine will be free” — as Workman’s column did — is doing something other than calling for the extermination of Israeli Jews?
You can't just add bits to quotes like that.
The two-state solution also leads to a free Palestine, you can't just casually assume they're calling for the elimination of Israel.
It's a well-known PLO slogan. I think it's perfectly fair to restore the missing part in square brackets. There are plenty of other ways to express a two-state solution.
First, they're a 20-something student. Gaps in knowledge like knowing the full slogan is kinda their thing.
Second, even if they knew the whole slogan they may have deliberately left it off because while they want a free Palestine they also believe Israel has a right to exist.
Third, not everybody interprets that phrase they way you do. And even the extreme versions are about driving the Jews out, not killing en-mass. So if you're going to call that "the extermination of Israeli Jews" then Israel has already committed, and is committing "the extermination of Palestinian Arabs".
Either way, that's an insanely dishonest use of square brackets.
Drewski,
Workman has allegedly violated university policy and procedures by falsely representing hir personal views as those of SBA which is an official entity in the Law School governance. As president of SBA, hir misrepresentation would be a serious violation of fiduciary responsibilities to SBA members. The Law School has announce the appropriate measure of launching a full investigation of the incident, including the assessment of which, if any, penalties are in order.
The FIRE complaint about suppression of political speech is a separable issue about which I have no comment.
I that enough words for you? Also do you have enough attention span to make such a distinction?
It was a "message from the President." I don't think such a statement purports to be the opinion of the organization.
It could be an abuse of the office, to take advantage of the organization's newsletter to send a personal political rant.
I ordinarily support FIRE but they are dead wrong on this. This is not a student just expressing views in the classroom, as a speaker at an event, on Twitter, or anything like that — this is a student who when acting in their official capacity as an SBA official sent an email on behalf of the SBA to the entire student body using school resources that are not generally available to all students/faculty. To say those somehow implicates the First Amendment or general free speech issues is like saying the Hatch Act violates the First Amendment — the problem is not the speech but using official resources to amplify the speech in violation of law/policy.
I agree with FIRE that this is not a behavioral disciplinary matter. It’s political speech, however disagreeable. Not representing the SBA is the SBA’s problem, but even so the president of the SBA writing a disagreeable opinion on SBA letterhead just isn’t academic misconduct.
My quibble here is that the boilerplate the university is using seems pretty standard. It’s similar to admissions departments when they say “all applications are thoroughly reviewed,” even though everyone knows many aren’t and some don’t deserve to be. Similar boilerplate is used by HR departments for jobs applications. And so on. It’s pretty prevalent usage. Because of this, I’d give the university a pass here. I think people are sufficiently used to, indeed inured to, this type of boilerplate enough that I doubt they will be chilled unless the university specifically promises to conduct a cursory investigation. It’s the equivalent of hype in advertising. If everybody knows it’s hype, and I think everybody who hasn’t been hiding under a rock does in this case, then it doesn’t mislead.
Clarification – it’s not a civil rights violation. It’s not harassment of any kind. The complaint alleged civil rights violations, not ordinary behavioral misconduct.
Lying in boilerplate is still lying. If all applications aren’t thoroughly reviewed, it is wrong to lie and say they are. This is not a harmless lie either, since if someone thinks their application will be thoroughly reviewed, they may take a long time writing an essay or stretch to spend money applying when they shouldn’t have bothered.
If anything, I think your defense, if true, is actually pretty damning. It is not something I know to be true that universities 1) promise to thoroughly review each application but 2) are actually lying. If I found out that was true, I would not approve.
Like, such a deception would be even less excusable than most, since there is no reason for it. I understand when people lie for important reasons. It is ok to lie to a stranger about where you live if they give you a creepy vibe, for example. But about this?
The same is true of saying you will thoroughly investigate a certain category of complaint when that isn’t true. I don’t know what the reasoning is. Perhaps that it looks better in litigation to make claims that aren’t true? Perhaps that it looks better from a public relations standpoint to say something that isn’t true?
Anyway, if the defense was that we don’t really mean what we say, that would be bad.
I think the essay intentionally included language that is best understood as advocacy of anti-Semitic genocide. Coming from someone in a position of authority at the university -- even "just" the president of the student bar association -- speaking ex officio, it could create a hostile educational environment for students on the basis of religious, ethnic and/or national origin.
I agree with FIRE that harassment law simply doesn’t cover political advocacy, however abhorrent the politics.
Accordingly, advocating more terrorist attacks, even advocating slaughtering every Jew in Israel, does not constitute harassment of Jewish students at ones university within the meaning of the civil rights laws.
Where is the dividing line between "political advocacy, however abhorrent the politics" and unprotected harassment? How many cases of terrorized Israelis or Jewish students does it take before you take violent antisemites seriously at their word?
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/oct/16/iran-accused-of-threatening-terrified-bbc-staff-in-london
https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-finds-anti-israel-incidents-on-us-campuses-harming-jewish-student-life/
The issue isn’t just whether students feel terrorized. The standard is objective.
And with reason. Think about what would happen if the standard were purely subjective. Doubtless there are plenty of Palestinian students today more than willing to testify that they feel terrorized whenever a professor says anything in favor of Israel. And for that matter, there were doubtless plenty of white people in the South more than willing to testify that they felt absolutely terrorized when threatening-looking black people commited outrages like sitting in the front of the bus.
Who said anything about feelings?
Maybe you should engage with what I actually wrote instead of a straw man. We're not talking about a weak "anything in favor of" statement, but an almost outright endorsement of genocide by the president of the student bar association, writing ex officio.
So somehow advocating for genocide isn't harassment to you but an off-color joke between people not involving you can be harassment as long as the genocide is the right people.
Sorry but that hypocrisy doesn't fly outside neo-nazi HR circles.
You have no right to attribute views to me that I don’t have. I have no such inconsistency. I don’t think FIRE does eather here. FIRE has done a lot to defend people from “harassment” claims coming from the left as well as from the right.
What authority do you think an SBA president has?
You are acting as if the SBA has some sort of separate legal identity from NYU Law, and that the issue is academic misconduct as opposed to a violation of a myriad of other NYU policies that the student agreed to when enrolling (such as an acceptable use IT policy). Neither is a safe assumption.
That it is political speech is irrelevant. The IRS Commissioner can write a letter telling people to vote for Biden, but if that letter is written using federal government resources and sent to every US taxpayer on IRS letterhead at government expense, you have crossed the line into illegal conduct.
The complaint was specifically about “bias and/or discriminatory behavior,” not some amorphous “violation of NYU policies.” And if your claim that student groups don’t have a legal identity separate from the university is true, how do you explain all those court cases in which universities were forced kicking and screaming to recognize student groups that support things the university says it abhors? It’s pretty clear law that universities can’t dictate what student groups there can be or what things they can stand for.
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/15/1123173389/yeshiva-university-lgbtq-group-supreme-court
The SBA is not an ordinary student group, it is part of university governance (albeit typically not that important). Typically every student is compelled to join the SBA and pay a fee to fund the SBA — similar to a mandatory bar association (who also cannot legally use official resources for political speech, see Keller v. State Bar).
"Not representing the SBA is the SBA’s problem, but even so the president of the SBA writing a disagreeable opinion on SBA letterhead just isn’t academic misconduct."
Misrepresenting SBA is more than SBA's "problem." It is the problem of NYU Law as SBA is a sanctioned element of NYU Law's governance.
If you don't know the specific of NYU's Law's policies and procedures (I don't), then you can't say that the violation of Workman's fiduciary responsibility to SBA members is or is not academic misconduct. Hence the full inquiry.
It can be misconduct without being academic misconduct.
True, but falsifying information is frequently considered academic misconduct. it is NYU'S decision. Hence the investigation
Wow you have no understanding of free speech.
If you get yourself into a position of power, you have more resources available to you. The fact that the SBA has a megaphone available to it says nothing about what they’re allowed to use that megaphone to say. They can say whatever the fuck they want.
The Hatch Act is an attempt by an organization — the government — to constrain itself. The analogy would be if SBA bylaws proscribed personal political statements from being issued through the “message from the President” section of the newsletter.
But free speech principles say there can be no external restraints on whatever the SBA or its president want to pontificate about.
This is not a free speech issue, and you are missing the point: the organization here—NYU—has chosen to constrain itself by enacting policies prohibiting the use of certain university resources (including listservs) to do nongermane things like promote your own private business, to harass, or—in this case—push your own political agenda. The SBA is not somehow not a part of NYU and if the SBA President violates an NYU policy on wrongful use of resources it certainly could constitute misconduct—and when that misconduct may also imicate Title VII or some other law applicable to NYU, then NYU can be held liable if it chooses to just ignore it.
Also, if you dislike the Hatch Act analogy, how about actual mandatory bar associations—-bar officials cannot use bar association resources to further political causes and the like. See Keller v. State Bar.
The list of NYU student organizations contains many with obvious political agendas visible just from their names. University faculaty haven’t exactly steered clear of politics either. If prohibiting use of university resources for political issue advocacy purposes is against university policy, it would seem to be a policy that’s very, very selectively enforced.
As ReaderY pointed out, no the fuck they haven’t! People push their political agendas all over college campuses, it’s half the point of going to college it seems like. It’s the main thing academic freedom and free speech principles are there to protect.
Again, dum dum, that’s a self-imposed constraint.
Again, the issue is not political speech, it is time, place, and manner. Do you think it would not be misconduct for a student to run into a contracts class they are not enrolled in, jump on the desk, and start yelling about Israel/Hamas?
For mandatory bars, it is not a self-imposed constraint, it is constitutionally prohibited per SCOTUS. See Keller v. State Bar.
This is the first time you’ve raised time, place, manner. A “note from the President” seems like the perfect time, place, manner for this kind of a statement.
Ah ok, apologies for the dum dum. But still inapposite. This is the scenario of mandatory dues being hijacked for advocacy purposes. It’s specific to the context of mandatory dues, and it can be resolved by making the dues (or even just the portion of the dues that go to advocacy) non-mandatory. That is, bar associations aren’t constitutionally prohibited from political advocacy, they’re just prohibited from using their members’ mandatory dues for it.
There are no mandatory dues in play here.
They probably are getting killed in their alumni fundraising now, and getting a lot of calls saying “not a dime more”.
If they do nothing they’ll take a big haircut, if they do too much they’ll have to pay out a settlement. So perhaps the best course (financially) is announce the investigation then tell the alumni they put her on double secret probation, but couldn't do anything publicly or they'd get sued, and leave it at that.
They could hide behind FERPA -- student records are confidential.
I suspect that when NYU’s lawyers came up with the boilerplate “all complaints are thoroughly inestigated” and handed it to the PR department as a formula response to inquiries, a scenario where somebody would complain that investigations weren’t sufficently cursory simply never occurred to them. They’re probably telling themselves you just can’t win.
Lots of admissions departments at selective schools say things like “all applications are thoroughly reviewed,” and everybody understands the reality is most of them get tossed out on the first pass with hardly a glance. It’s not clear to me why this boilerplate should be construed differently here.
This seems right.
While I think that's largely right, it doesn't change the fact that "investigations" chill speech. You see the same phenomenon when police announce they are "investigating" offensive leaflets left on driveways.
That chills speech, as it makes people think it's illegal.
Right, so no investigations allowed in your world. Simultaneously to your "oh noes, I can't advocate for terrorism" is the need of the public to know that something is being done. This wasn't some simple "calm down and get the full context" plea but an endorsement of the attack.
Here I don't think it should be more than losing her officer position for the advocacy through that office. While gross, if this had been her personal email/twitter or even a dissertation topic I wouldn't see where they have a need to do let alone announce anything.
But that is a pretty important distinction. If this was just done on a personal Twitter or in a personal email then yes, there should be no investigation and no official sanction. The problem here is using university resources earmarked for a specific purpose that are available to them solely due to their position as SBA President for something other than that specified purpose.
There is a difference between a person distributing political leaflets in driveways and a government official, using government resources, sending a letter on government letterhead while purporting to represent the government to all citizens taking a political position.
This isn’t a speech issue, it is an abuse of power / wrongful use of NYU resources issue. It would be the same issue if they used the SBA mailing list to promote their own personal eBay store.
Agreed.
Of course there is. I'm just saying that saying that you are "investigating" even as a matter of course, can chill speech. You are correct that the NYU situation is different, and perhaps should be "chilled." But if the police get a call that someone put an offensive flyer in driveways, they should just say "No crime has been committed, so there's nothing we can do."
They shouldn't announce that they are "investigating."
I agree with you on all of that. I just do not think this NYU situation is a pure political speech issue, given the use of university resources I think an investigation would be warranted even if one were not if this was just a statement made on a personal Twitter or in a class discussion.
F*ck that
Let me know when Riley Gaines and Jordan Peterson can talk on New York University's campus without being suppressed.
Until then? So long as there's no free speech for my side, there's no free speech for anyone. Boot her. Destroy her life. So the same that every other terrorist supporting scumbag on any college campus in America.
You wanted "free speech with consequences." Great. you should get it, hard
My mother used to say, "if your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump, too?"
Apparently, that's really a thing.
Wait, is it standard NYU policy to investigate all complaints that are filed? So a complaint was filed, and per policy, the NYU administration is investigating. What is the problem?
How can NYU determine if a complaint has any legitimacy if they don't ask some questions? I don't quite understand that part. I would object if the student was targeted solely for political speech, but in this case an actual complaint was filed, right? Doesn't that make a difference?
Indeed. The NYU statement to the NYT described a general policy of due diligence after a complaint, and led off by saying that for legal reasons they could neither confirm not deny an investigation. FIRE is usually good, but in this case they are really exercised because they jumped to conclusions and piled inferences upon inferences.
Correct. Muslims and other third worlders should have full First Amendment protections if they're citizens. They just shouldn't be allowed to immigrate in the first place.