The Volokh Conspiracy
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Some Cancellations are Justified
Whether a person deserves to be "cancelled" for saying awful things depends on the nature of what they said and the nature of their job.

Over the last few years, conservatives and some libertarians have made a point of complaining about "cancel culture," while many on the left have defended cancellations, or at least minimized their significance. But the shoe has been on the other foot in recent days, as there have been "cancellations" of student leaders and others who expressed sympathy for the horrific Hamas terrorist attacks against Israel. For example, when the president of the NYU law school student bar association issued such a statement, a law firm rescinded its offer to her, and the SBA itself moved to dismiss her from its presidency. People on the right have tended to support the cancellation of Hamas apologists, even if they opposed earlier left-wing cancellations.
Libertarian-leaning Washington Post columnist Megan McArdle (who opposed left-wing cancellations) decries the Hamas cancellations, as well. She argues that "free speech is the cornerstone of our democracy, and free speech by definition requires protecting unpopular ideas. Since bad ideas are often unpopular, this will include protecting some bad ones — fighting them with good ideas, rather than threats."
I respect her consistency. But I disagree. And that disagreement is not of recent vintage, born of the Hamas cases. Back in 2014 (long before "cancel culture" was a widely known phrase), I refused to sign a statement suggesting that we should never fire people because of their views. Sometimes such firings are justified:
[A]t one point the statement asserts that "the consequence of holding a wrong opinion should not be the loss of a job." I think this is true in the vast majority of cases, but not always. For example, few would object if [the person in question] had been fired for donating money to the KKK or a neo-Nazi organization… Despite some deplorable PC excesses, overall the effort to stigmatize racism and Nazism has produced some beneficial results. Elsewhere, I have suggested that there should be greater stigma attached to advocacy of communism than there is at present among Western intellectuals. Advocates of such ideologies should not be persecuted by the government or barred from all employment (even by private action). But it makes sense to impose some social stigma on them and exclude them from positions of great influence and prestige. Indeed, there has never been a society, no matter how liberal, that did not regard at least some ideas as "beyond the pale…."
In an ideal world where everyone carefully weighs opposing arguments strictly on the basis of logic and evidence, stigmatization would be both ineffective and unnecessary. In the real world, unfortunately, it can be a necessary evil, albeit only in extreme cases….
How do we identify cases where cancellation is justified? I summarized some possible criteria:
Opposition to same-sex marriage is distinguishable from Nazism, racism, and communism based on a combination of 1) the magnitude of the evil involved, 2) the extent to which the evidence against the view in question is overwhelming, and 3) the likely effects of trying to stigmatize [it]…., which in the case of [opposition] same-sex marriage is likely to be counterproductive.
The case at hand was the forced resignation of a Mozilla executive who opposed same-sex marriage (I myself was and am a longtime supporter of same-sex marriage, but did not think opposition was worthy of cancellation).
I still hold much the same view today. But I would add some additional considerations.
First, much depends on the nature of the job we are talking about. Some positions - most notably those involving academic inquiry and research - require very broad freedom of thought, in order to ensure free-wheeling inquiry. In these types of situations, we must often tolerate abhorrent views, in order to avoid stifling research and debate. For that reason, I defended the academic freedom of University of Pennsylvania law professor Amy Wax, despite the fact she made awful comments advocating discrimination against Asian immigrants (which I condemned).
Wide-ranging free inquiry is not a primary purpose of most jobs, however. In those cases, there is much less social cost to employers' exercising their right to dissociate themselves from people whose views they find abhorrent. This point pretty clearly applies to the law firm that rescinded the offer to the Hamas apologist, and to the NYU SBA, as well.
In some situations, moreover, the nature of the job is such that an employee with at least some types of abhorrent views is likely to prove a menace to the organization's mission. If Wax were up for a position as a university president or high-ranking administrator, it would be entirely proper to reject her based on her awful views. Research and debate are not primary duties of administrators. And people in such positions have a lot of discretionary power over students and staff that a person with Wax's views could readily abuse.
Moreover, top-level leaders are supposed to embody an institution's values to a greater extent than rank and file employees. If a college president or corporate CEO is an open racist or terrorism apologist, it's far more difficult for the institution to dissociate itself from his positions, than in the case of people in lower-level posts. Barring people with abhorrent values from such high-ranking positions is far more defensible than denying them other types of jobs.
There are, of course, many jobs where even the most abhorrent possible views are of little moment. Rarely, if ever, should anyone care about the political views of a construction worker or an accountant. Those views are highly unlikely to affect their work, and letting people with abhorrent views hold such positions is unlikely to give those opinions undeserved prestige or social status.
Finally, as noted in my 2014 post, cancellation is unlikely to work when it comes to awful views that are widely held. For example, we could not effectively cancel racists in 1950s Alabama. In such cases, it might still be justified to avoid appointing advocates of terrible views to positions of great power that they are likely to abuse (e.g. - even then, perhaps especially then, it's better that a university president not be a racist). But it makes no sense to bar them merely for the purpose of stigmatization.
In sum, whether cancellation is justified depends on some combination of the awfulness of the views in question, the nature of the job, and whether stigmatization is likely to be effective. This makes for a complicated calculus, and people will surely make mistakes in applying it. But the alternative of never terminating employment based on abhorrent views is even worse. In that scenario, we would be unable to remove Nazis, Communists, and the like from positions where they are likely to cause serious harm.
Perhaps we should nonetheless abjure cancellation across the board, if the only alternative is the destruction of free inquiry and discourse. But I think we are nowhere near that point. In a society with strict limits on state-imposed censorship (a different beast from private cancellation), any widely held view is unlikely to be systematically suppressed, because there are likely to be institutions that back it. If left-wing institutions cancel conservatives for stupid reasons, right-wing institutions are likely to give them a platform - and vice versa. Indeed, this is exactly what has happened with many victims of dubious cancellation attempts (and even some whose cancellations were better justified).
Many of the things that supposedly can't be said in the intellectual world (opposition to affirmative action, support for police crackdowns on crime, critiques of cancel culture itself, and much else) are in fact said all the time, usually with few or no negative consequences. Don't believe me? Look around the internet and find numerous examples of people saying them! I've said a number of them in prominent venues myself, and haven't even come close to cancellation.
Moreover, people of good faith can and do make reasonable distinctions between different types of views and different types of institutions. And if you think few or no people have good faith, then attacking cancel culture is unlikely to help, as the bad-faith types aren't going to heed your exhortations anyway.
We can't avoid all mistakes, and there will continue to be some egregious cancel culture excesses. We should condemn them and work to reduce their incidence. But we should not go to the opposite extreme of rejecting cancellation across the board.
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It makes very little sense to me to argue, as some do, that someone should not be fired for publicly yelling “Death to Jews” (or “Death to Muslims”), but if that exact same person walked into their office and told their boss “I hope you drop dead you stupid piece of shit motherfucker”, no one would blink an eye at firing them.
I agree that perhaps there should be some extra protection for political speech writ large, but the idea that employers can police decorum in every manner _except_ when the breach of decorum has the thinnest political gloss strikes me as a silly distinction.
To the point about Brendan Eich — I agree that in principle someone should not be fired for opposing same-sex marriage (then or now). But that doesn’t capture the actual dynamic. The actual dynamic is that you have a company where a numerical majority of workers had zero confidence in their boss and did not want to work for them. Maybe he deserved their confidence, maybe he’d have been a good boss. But morale is real and I totally understand why beneficial owners of a firm would remove a manager who wrecks morale, irrespective of whether the employees were being spoiled brats or not.
We saw this repeat with the Spanish womens national football coach recently — he was accused of low level sex pest behaviour. Were the accusations a legal slam dunk? No, not really, even the woman who accused him said it wasn’t a criminal thing. She just didn’t want to play for a guy who got handsy with her. And, it turns out, neither did anyone else. So for a week we had a situation where the entire team and a ton of the support staff quit and management was insisting “Well he wasn’t convicted so he shouldn’t step down!” until surprise surprise he stepped down. Was it fair to force him out over some minor misconduct? Maybe not. Was it fair to force him out over the fact that the entire organization quit because they had no confidence in him? Yes, obviously.
I would distinguish between on-the-job and off-the-job conduct. Of course you can be fired for being a bad worker, and starting conflicts with your boss in the workplace qualifies. But saying stuff not to your boss but other people outside of work doesn't, and a workplace can ignore that (and create a policy that such things will be ignored).
I think this is a decent way to think about it. If it is job related, then it may make sense to fire someone for speech or behavior.
But if someone makes a political statement outside of work, even if it is a really stupid and insensitive one, I don’t think we should be looking to cancel them.
"The actual dynamic is that you have a company where a numerical majority of workers had zero confidence in their boss and did not want to work for them."
I don't know that's actually true. Was he fired as a result of a poll of the workers? Not that I recall. He was fired by the board. Of course, afterwards all sorts of excuses were made for the firing, but let's remember that: He was fired by the board, for having donated to a ballot proposal.
And it's easy to forget at this remove, that Prop 8 passed. Eich's position wasn't some "beyond the pale", minority position. It was the majority position!
That's what gave cancel culture a bad name on the right: It wasn't being used to defend existing cultural norms, it was being used to attack them! To punish popular viewpoints, and frighten people into not defending them, so that they could be displaced.
It's still mostly used to that end.
I don’t know that we should be especially concerned about popular views being the subject of cancel culture. It is the ability of people to think and learn openly that ought to be respected. Whether the view is popular or not.
This example though shows how cancel culture spreads into more areas of thought. It should be called cancel cancer.
'To punish popular viewpoints,'
You're not supposed to challenge 'popular' viewpoints!
If you're going to make strawman arguments, at least do a better job of it. That was just weak.
How is it any of your business? It’s between the employer and the employee.
The author of this article must have been paid by the word. Tossing in cadillac words like "abjure" was particularly impressive. I think someone once said "Brevity is the soul of wit." Perhaps that is outdated now.
In general I detest the notion of cancel culture. But for non-government actors there seems to be no practical way to prevent it by law if even minimal standards of liberty are to be allowed to remain. At some point some practitioner of the art is likely to suffer from a cancelled individual exercising a right of private action, and of course "that would be terrible."
But for conservatives to "abjure" from the practice of cancellation while liberals not only use but celebrate the use of cancellation against conservatives is stupid and self-defeating. Being retired, I have dropped many of the "filters" that limited what I would say to protect my livelihood during my work life, as I am partly libertarian and partly a constitutional conservative, neither stance being popular with or defended by H.R. types today. Now, unlike while I was dependent upon my job to support myself and my family, I post under my own name, and will deal with whatever results from what I choose to say.
I agree that "people of good faith can and do make reasonable distinctions between different types of views and different types of institutions" and, accordingly, reject the notion of "academic freedom" within the type of institution directly or indirectly receiving my involuntary tax dollars. It is wonderful to hear agreement that making such a distinction is wise.
And I also agree that "Nazis, Communists, and the like" should be removed "from positions where they are likely to cause serious harm." But such agreement doesn't seem to resolve anything: do we as individuals identify "Nazis, Communists, and the like" or do we leave such identification to a self-appointed or majority-elected oligarchy of some sort? Even a doddering and confused President Biden today confessed that "it's hard to-- hard to make distinctions" and was reminded that "Hamas is an Islamist terrorist group _and_ the government of Gaza."
Who breaks the bizarre circularity which has, throughout my life and long before, been present in the Levant? Who picks the winners and losers? The gods of Yesterday? The gods of Today? Winston Churchill? President Truman? President Trump? President Biden? The UN? Professor Somin?
The character Charles Foster Kane said “I can remember everything. That’s my curse, young man. It’s the greatest curse that’s ever been inflicted on the human race: memory.” Perhaps we all should be cursed with memory, complete with circularity.
Surely, no one can deny Israel its lebensraum -- the protective "living space" Israel's current nationalist leaders demand in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem. And no one can deny that enemies of Israel either must be contained (even if only briefly) or must be exterminated: if efficient government is good government, as many assert, certainly extermination is preferable to the awkward ghettoization implemented in 1516 Venice... or to even more awkward modern efforts in Piotrków Trybunalski or Gaza City.
Ancient scrolls are difficult to read, but one seems to go something like this. Once upon a time, there was this guy named Mo' who came from a family that caused no end of angst for the Duly Anointed Leader of The Kingdom [his name eludes me, so we'll call him Omer]. Well, Omer worried that Mo's besties were forming a gang -- and a pretty powerful one at that -- with enough firepower to blast Omer and his besties right off the map. So, Omer tried what he thought was smart: he came up with a way to cut down Mo's gang. Well, time elapsed... and what do you know?! It just so happened that Omer's plan came back to haunt him: the very same plan Omer attempted to use to cut down Mo's gang was used to make the whole Kingdom mad at Omer himself. And, ironically, the saddest part is that Mo' kept trying to 'splain things to Omer... but Omer was just too hard-headed (or hard-hearted) to listen.
Leland ultimately spoke to Charles Foster Kane, saying “You don’t care about anything except you. You just want to persuade people that you love ’em so much that they ought to love you back. Only you want love on your own terms. Something to be played your way, according to your rules.”
Academia would be a ghost town if you removed all the Marxists.
Utterly untrue. This kind of anti-intellectual redbaiting shares more with Mao than the vast majority of academia do.
Not utterly untrue: Marxists ARE vastly over-represented in academia, and have influence beyond their numbers because they gravitate to positions where they'll have leverage.
Academia was probably the first institution subjected to "the march through the institutions", and is the most thoroughly captured.
Academia would not be a ghost town if you removed the Marxists.
Also, of course, teaching Marxist analysis is not endorsing communism or socialism - Marx was wrong, but was everyone who was a vital part of the enlightenment body of political philosophy.
Actual avowed 'Communism is good, actually' are a lot more rare than those who prefer namecalling to engaging with the body of actual research and literature that says their ideology is simplistic.
Anti-intellectualism.
> Actual avowed ‘Communism is good, actually’ are a lot more rare than those who prefer namecalling to engaging with the body of actual research and literature that says their ideology is simplistic.
Precisely. There are plenty of scholars who would describe themselves as Marxian—i.e., they see value in Marxist principles as a tool of analysis—but actual Marxists who dream of the revolution blah blah blah? Not for a long, long time.
More ironic yet, it's those on the right who seriously pursue culture war stuff show an allegiance with Gramscian methodology. The far right gets war of position possibly better than anyone on the left these days.
"Academia would not be a ghost town if you removed the Marxists."
That's why I said not "utterly" untrue. Just largely. Actually, I suspect that if you could remove the Marxists, even the leftists would breath a sigh of relief; Polls show that everybody but the extreme leftists in academia are scared to dissent from them.
"Also, of course, teaching Marxist analysis is not endorsing communism or socialism"
Riiight. Just like teaching fascist analysis is not endorsing Nazism, which is why you wouldn't complain about that fascist professor using Mien Kamph as teaching material, and not as a negative example, either.
Except that I've debated actual academic Marxists, such as at Crooked Timber, and, yeah, they actually would like another shot at proving it can be done right, and they get really testy if you point out that the real world results were enormously bad.
So you don't know what Marxist analysis is.
If you think Marxist analysis is just: 'Communism is good Capitalism is bad' you're ignorant. That isn't a required conclusion of the methodology.
You should maybe not talk further about Marxists in education until you educate yourself.
Oh come on, Brett knows the distinctions between orthodox Marxism, the Frankfurt School, Gramscians, Althusserianism, and Fredric Jameson (to name a few). He's debated and humiliated Marxists because he knows the ins and outs of that stuff better than they know it themselves.
I wouldn't complain about a professor of fascism using Mein Kamph as teaching material.
Man I didn't realize how far gone you guys are in terms of being afraid of ideas. You can't really ever be pro free speech if you're afraid of ideas.
and was reminded that “Hamas is an Islamist terrorist group _and_ the government of Gaza.”
That's like saying the Gangs are the government of Chicago. At least a defined geography in Chicago. Gaza is not a nation state, and hamas is not government by any definition.
Wrong on both counts, and so ludicrously so that I wonder what you were thinking.
He might be thinking the New York Times is a reliable source - - - - - - -
I make a distinction between people born here, and who we are stuck with, and those we invite to join us.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-urges-biden-administration-cancel-visas-foreign-nationals-support-hamas-attack-israel
Yes, send them home....
Don't you have some hake to soak in milk?
Senator Rubio is a glowing beacon of courage in this darn old mixed up world.
Hmmm... Well, I'm pretty sure we don't extend the full Second Amendment rights to non-citizens. So, by analogy, it seems at least plausible for us to do something similar with First Amendment rights. Sen. Rubio (and Dr. Ed) may be onto something...
I still find Scott Alexander’s argument convincing:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/12/29/the-spirit-of-the-first-amendment/
Which views are “beyond the pale” are subjective, and everyone will try to push for the views they personally disfavor to qualify, leading to a war of all-against-all. That being said, I do appreciate Ilya’s point that no one should care about the opinions of some low-level employee (which are often the people vulnerable enough to get fired).
Low-level employees can easily find another low-level job. Ultimately, anyone can find another job.
I can see very limited cases where people should lose jobs for their views. If someone is serving food, or providing medical care, or policing, etc, then we certainly should move them out of those jobs if they are racist or otherwise biased. Because such views undermine the trust of those receiving such services.
But, if the view isn’t job related, we shouldn’t be firing people over it.
"Low-level employees can easily find another low-level job."
And in the time it takes, exhaust their low-level savings...
When you are already at the bottom, you have the least to lose. Jobs in fast food restaurants or retail are plentiful even in rural areas.
Buuuuut, that’s not much help if every such employer is shamed into not hiring you…or, if you can’t afford to be out of work long enough to find one willing to take the chance.
I think we simply need an actual ban on that kind of thing (like bans on discriminating based on other protected categories…), or else we’re basically saying people should starve/die for being “really wrong” about something that doesn’t even relate to their job.
There are actually a lot of employers who are pretty ignorant about politics. Much less do employers have identical political views, including on the subject of cancellation.
I don’t believe people actually have much to worry about if their ambition is to flip burgers or whatever.
It seems the most vulnerable are those whose jobs are neither "low-level" nor involving "wide-ranging free inquiry". E.g. the Google engineer fired for speaking against affirmative action.
It's little help to say that "right-wing institutions are likely to give them a platform", because who is going to give them a job? Only for journos and academics like Somin are job and platform the same thing.
Advocating that the murder and rape of civilians is necessary isn't subjectively bad, it's objectively bad. That some people can abstract and gaslight themselves into not recognizing that is a problem, almost as much a problem as those that excuse it.
Well, based on Somin’s views, I would support stripping him of tenure and firing him.
There is something beautiful about making people eat the consequences of their own views.
Free speech is an illusion if people are afraid to express their ideas. The idea that we should cancel people is based on the idea that they are incapable of learning and such lowly scum, not worthy of teaching.
Cancellation is always based on self-righteousness and the illusion of our own superiority. In the past, most people were racist. Because that is what they were taught. Now, a very large majority of people aren’t racist. Because free speech works.
The idea that academics should have more freedom to speak than anyone else is invalid. The most important reason for freedom of speech is to enable democratic deliberation. The votes of academics is pretty negligible.
Saying that cancellation is a judgment call implies we will continue to debate this idea. So, let’s say I thought Somin’s ideas were harmful. Cancel him??? Let’s debate it, right???
Look, the only reason to cancel people who say really stupid things about Palestinian attacks is because it hurts our feelings. These people are not politically powerful. Their opinion practically doesn’t matter. And cancellation will not prevent people from making up their own minds.
I am very disappointed in Somin. He supports illiberalism. As such, he is an enemy of free speech CULTURE. And once we have most free speech culture, the law will follow.
One should be careful about indulging in emotions. There literally is nothing to be gained by cancellations, but much to be lost.
And here is another thing. This is ultimately not our problem. I am bothered that we are talking about canceling people in America because of something that has happened in another country.
My support for a cause is going to decrease to the extent one seeks to impose cancel culture. Whatever you believe, I am going to tend to support the opposite once you start canceling people. This cancel culture movement needs to be crushed. We should start a movement to cancel people who advocate for cancel culture. Let them eat their own illiberal philosophy.
I agree with Megan McArdle on this one.
I strongly support Israel and dislike Hamas. At the same time, I do not support people who are going to f*ck with my country or seek to manipulate people here in order to strengthen support for a cause. It is OUR CHOICE what to think!!!
Donating money is a form of speech, and yet no one has problem criminalizing the donation of money to terrorist groups.
I have a real problem with the foreign graduate students who come here and then celebrate Hamas and its ilk. No. Go home and do that....
Donating money that can be used to purchase weapons isn’t merely speech, Ed.
More broadly, money isn’t speech. And donating money isn’t speech either.
The problem comes in when spending money on having your own speech heard is construed to be donating money.
Money is speech because money donated to pols is 90% for speech, the mass production and distribution of speech. You could tighten that up to only have government control the other 10%, but why bother?
Money donated to Hamas is probably not mostly going to speech.
You make a great argument against spending limits.
It doesn't seem to apply to donation limits.
Buckley was wrong. Money doesn't talk, it shouts.
If you think it's okay to cancel people for being Nazis and racists, the next question is who gets to decide who counts?
Because the left has extremely, extremely, loose standards for who counts as a Nazi or a racist when they want to cancel them. If you accept cancellation for those reasons, you are handing the left a blank check to cancel anyone they want to with your full approval because it's always possible to paint some anti-left policy or act as "racist".
I don’t agree.
Because when we cancel people, we are saying they aren’t allowed to make up their mind. And once you say they can’t make up their mind about racism or Nazi ideology, what else can’t they make their mind up about???
The logic of telling people what they can or cannot think isn’t going to end with just these two things.
Being a Nazi or being a racist isn’t a choice that very many people will make, except to be “edge lords.” I actually believe making it “forbidden” to have these ideas makes them more attractive to a subset of the population. Because these ideas just aren’t very rational or reasonable.
Racism is flawed, because it is judging people in a very shallow way.
Racism and Nazi ideology in America isn’t unpopular primarily because people are told they can’t being racist or because they are told they can’t be a Nazi. It is unpopular because these ideas are stupid and unpersuasive.
We should not seek to cancel or ban stupidity.
I believe that the desire to cancel is really just the same as giving up on the belief that people can be voluntarily persuaded to embrace better ideas.
There is a real tension with a belief in democracy on one hand and a belief that society will fall apart if people aren’t afraid to express certain particularly dumb ideas. The only thing standing between us and overwhelming racism is cancel culture??? If that were true, I wouldn’t think much of democracy.
"…the next question is who gets to decide who counts?"
It’s always the meanest, most dishonest people who step up for that role.
I myself would distinguish between firing someone for saying "kill the Jews," and firing someone for saying "Bruce Jenner." The first firing is right, the second firing is wrong. If the law or Somin's rules can't make the distinction, there's a problem with the law or the rules.
But hasn't Prof. Volokh identified some states where it would be hard to dismiss someone even for saying "kill the Jews," excuse me, I mean "colonizers"?
Would Somin's cancellation be justified?
I think so.
People who embrace cancel culture kind of deserve to be canceled more than anyone.
We should call it cancel cancer.
Because it the number if forbidden ideas always expands and it is uncertain where the boundaries are.
So it is ok to fire a person that supports extreme ideology. Nazis and such.
What if the person is elected?
If you can find enough voters that will ignore the evil, because the balance of the office holder is exactly what the voter wants?
This hypothetical of course fits today.
The Squad v Trump
This difference of course is the Squad is truly noxious.
While fake news, leads the propaganda campaign against Trump
Trump was honored by Black leaders for his civil rights advocacy. Trump was far ahead of Obama and Biden in his support of gay marriage.
Not until he ran for office, did the media decide unfounded smears were needed to take him out.
Its ok to punish Nazis, but not communists?
What is the difference?
Communism has murdered by the millions, far exceeding the evil of Nazis.
Most of Ilya's friends are communists, that seems to be the only relevant difference.
Love people who think Prof. Somin is pro-Communism or palls around with socialists.
Just the dumbest people on here these days.
Communism takes title to the means of production.
Fascism leaves the title in the hands of 'private' corporations, but the government directs those corporations.
Either way, the state controls the citizen.
This is true, however, thinking that a mentally ill man who cuts off his peter is not a woman does not qualify as something that should be cancellable.
Now do the one where it is a minor; do we cancel those who "support"/advocate for allowing/encouraging irreversible harm?
In the end, where is this line (to me fictional) between 'cancel', and 'do not associate with'?
International and US federal criminal anti-genocide law requires the cancellation both of the State of Israel and also of every Zionist.
From the standpoint of international law, the genocide has never ended that started in Dec 1947 with the Nakba. This genocide will not have ended until Palestinians return to their homes, property, villages, and country.
Genocide has been an international capital crime without a statute of limitations since Dec 11, 1946 when the international community banned genocide and made this ban jus cogens. The mere existence of the Zionist state negates the international anti-genocide legal regime and undermines international law.
Israeli’s apartheid regime is a byproduct of the ongoing genocide and also a condition deliberately inflicted and calculated to bring about the Palestinian group’s physical destruction in whole or in part.
Please look up what jus cogens means. Palestinians have no right under international law to negotiate with the Zionist state to create an agreement that would legalize or legitimize any element of Zionist genocide that has take place since Dec 11, 1946. The issue is much bigger than the local conflict in stolen and hi-jacked Palestine.
Shut. Up. Nazi. Scum.
Zionsts and Nazis oppose enforcement of anti-genocide law. Zionists effectively collaborated in Nazi genocide of Jews from Jan 1933 through Kristallnacht because of congruent goals. Nazis wanted to drive Jews out of Germany while Zionists wanted to force Jews to Palestine where they could be indoctrinated in Zionism and help to commit genocide against Palestinians.
Zionsts and Nazis oppose the enforcement of anti-genocide law. Zionists effectively collaborated in Nazi genocide of Jews from Jan 1933 through Kristallnacht because of congruent goals. Nazis wanted to drive Jews out of Germany while Zionists wanted to force Jews to Palestine where they could be indoctrinated in Zionism and help to commit genocide against Palestinians.
In short, I read, disagreement is tolerable but blasphemy is not.
The Satanic Verses were "beyond the pale", they said.
Personally, I see a difference between an employer firing someone for views the employer finds objectionable and an activist campaign to make someone unemployable.
My view of the former will be dependent on specifics. The later I consider highly problematic no matter who is doing it or why.
Likewise, there is a difference between "I don't like your politics, therefore I will not buy your products" and "I don't like your politics, therefore no one should be allowed to buy your products"
It may be objectionable, but it is also unquestionably, speech.
Here is an example of over-careful speech.
Albanese is a lawyer and deliberately used the legally meaningless phrase ethnic cleansing because she does not have the courage to call obvious genocide genocide when it is perpetrated by Zionist colonial settlers against the natives of Palestine. She does not have the guts to offend white states and white racists. See UN expert warns of new instance of mass ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, calls for immediate ceasefire.
Albanese does not want to trigger the international obligation to prevent genocide. This obligation requires the abolition of the Zionist state and the arrest of every Zionist colonial settler to be tried for the international capital crime of genocide.
The obligation to prevent genocide is a peremptory legal norm (jus cogens). Any state may undertake action against a state-perpetrator of genocide just as the state can and must take action against a pirate state. It is wrong to wait for the UN before taking action against the Zionist state. See PDF p. 181 (document p. 220) et seq. from this PDF.
Every US Zionist must be arrested to be tried under the following statutes:
18 U.S. Code § 1091 - Genocide
18 U.S. Code § 2339A - Providing material support to terrorists
The US must either enforce these laws or repeal them. It breaks the US legal system to give several million people under US jurisdiction a license to commit serious crimes with impunity.
Yawn. You realize that the shtick gets old quickly, right? You’ve got to do something to increase the absurdity of your insane claims if you want to go for shock value. Maybe talk about Jews causing the Black Death by poisoning the wells, or using the blood of Christian children for matzoh. (Those are about the only blood libels you haven’t tried, so far. AFAIK.)
UN "Special Rapporteurs" are dime-a-dozen... One famously argued that Julian Assange had been "unlawfully detained" during his self-imposed, five-year stay in Ecuador's embassy in London.
'But the shoe has been on the other foot in recent days'
In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, the right cancelled French fries. Just to highlight how inane this ultimately all is. If you call consequences 'camcellation' then they're just casualties in the culture war and considering the specifics is a secondary, almost abstract, priority.
'Cancel culture' is like 'woke' and 'CRT,' their current 'definitions' are so far removed from what they originally were as to be parodic, and they are primarily formulated and used by the right as clubs to beat anyone who objects to certain behavours or criticises certain speech. They call them 'fascism' while banning books and persecuting a minority and try to overthrow a democratic election.
>In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, the right cancelled French fries.
No they didn't. French fries don't have a job or a home address or life, so you can't cancel them. And "refuses to buy" isn't cancellation anyway.
You appear to be confusing cancellation with doxxing, but that's ok, that's precisely why it was so flagrantly ridiculous, but it didn't stop them in their performatively righteous fury at the French not joining in their illegal invasion.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/10/16/the-cecil-the-lion-killing-dentist-civil-rights-boycott-noncompliers-and-hamas-supporters/?comments=true#comment-10276556
Ms. McArdle is conflating criticism with censorship. No one is preventing the Hamas-defenders from speaking. But, as Queen Almathea put it (see link above), some "people [may] not want[...] to associate with assholes saying asshole things." I do not see a problem.
“Nobody is preventing them from speaking, instead we are only talking about depriving them of their job if they speak.”
That isn’t censorship, you say.
“Also, criminal punishment of speech isn’t censorship, because no one prevented them from speaking.”
Same reasoning.
This rhetorical technique is called... well it probably does have a name that I wish I knew. The technique being to overuse a scare-word like "censorship" by applying it to more and more mundane scenarios.
Like: My teacher censored my answer that 2 + 2 = five.
It's the same trick the left is playing with "racist." Don't fall for word games, people.
The dictionary definition of censorship isn’t limited to state actors just because the First Amendment is. I kind of think it shouldn’t matter what word we use. I don’t use the word censorship because I believe it is a trump card or something. It is just a word for suppression of speech.
It kind of does matter what word you use.
I mean, it's called getting fired for cause. No one calls it censorship.
Depending on the circumstances, it can be both. If you fire someone for something they say, what message does it send to that person and what message does it send to anyone with similar thoughts?
The idea that only government can engage in censorship conflicts with the dictionary definition. And it conflicts with common sense.
I'm not saying only governments can censor. I'm not even saying it isn't censorship. When a math teacher marks five as the wrong answer for 2 + 2, that is technically censorship... government censorship even.
But you'd be an idiot to complain about censorship when your math test comes back with lots of red. In the same way, you're an idiot to complain about the element of censorship that arises when people don't want to hang out with you because you're an asshole.
QA nailed that one.
Individual choices are ok, but ganging up on someone to bully them is bad. Cancel culture is ganging up on an individual to bully that person.
Trying to decide whether group bullying of an individual is "justified" based on content of statements seems to lack basic humanity. We don’t need rules from some asshole academics for when we can somehow justifiably go into mob frenzy mode on someone.
Cancel culture is also dredging up old statements and/or misconstruing statements to dishonestly create issues where they don't exist. James Gunn being fired for a pedophile joke years ago would be an example. Show me how the statement is relevant now or directly harmful now and you have a better case.
Hmmm... Wouldn't that depend on what it was the "victim" of "cancellation" said? Or did?
compare & contrast:
"Wouldn’t that depend on what it was the “victim” of “cancellation” said?"
Not really. In general, ganging up on a person to bully them is bad behavior, regardless of the justification.
If you want to claim it's a necessary evil in some specific situation, then detail the exact situation and explain why it's necessary.
It probably is necessary sometimes. But don't seek out opportunities to justify-in-advance evils that might someday regretably be necessary.
Did you read the post? That's what it's all about.
Seems like related but different issues. I don’t agree with a "right" to be forgotten.
I’d address the need for ex-cons to be able to be employed using some sort of government funded insurance and/or other incentives.
But those are not cancel culture.
No one really getting down to the specifics here, other than a bunch of redbaiting.
Conservative: I have been censored for my conservative views
Me: Holy shit! You were censored for wanting lower taxes?
Con: LOL no...no not those views
Me: So....deregulation?
Con: Haha no not those views either
Me: Which views, exactly?
Con: Oh, you know the one
Super dishonest take from Saecastr0, as expected.
Note the use of innuendo and guilt by association instead of actually outright saying who did something wrong and what was wrong about it. That’s a normal tactic of leftist dishonesty.
Are you arguing no cancellations are justified, Ben?
Nah, you're just yelling libs bad like you always do.
Luckily for you, being predictable and boring isn't a rational for cancellation.
“being predictable and boring isn’t a rational for cancellation”
Maybe not yet.
Anything might become the basis for cancellation.
Just pointing out your dishonesty and the tactics you use to get away with it.
You didn't point out anything, though did you? You just called me dishonest and accused me of guilt by association(?).
No actual engagement. Per your usual.
What specific accusation is "Oh, you know the one"?
Why habitually wrap accusations in innuendo except to be dishonest?
Which specific individual is guilty of what offense? What are the details?
But none of that is your point. You want unspecified people to be held in suspicion of unspecified offenses. It’s dishonest and sleazy.
I bet even you "know the one". It's hardly a secret.
Sarc was clearly making a joke. And you're trying to "cancel" him for telling it.
Which means you must be a leftist?
Sarcastr0 wasn't even making a joke; he was quoting a well-known Twitter joke.
I don't think one must be the originator of a joke to get credit for it not being a serious comment.
I think you're miscalculating the effect of trying to stigmatize defenders of Hamas. Hamas is certainly worse than Israel, but Israel is also pretty bad. I think what you're seeing in especially the younger generations is a feeling that they're all assholes, but for some unexplained reasons, Israel gets a pass for its behavior but Hamas doesn't. Some of the people who find that double standard irksome may then go on to sympathize with the Palestinians (and by naive extension, Hamas), as a way to sort of "counterbalance" the narrative.
Attempting to stigmatize those people -- without also stigmatizing defenders of Israel's atrocities -- just furthers the impression of a double standard and will push more people into sympathy with Palestine.
Randal, when you try to assert equivalence in the actions of Hamas and the actions of Israel, and the ideology of Israel versus the ideology of Hamas; it just falls apart.
The problem I see with Somin's Soliloquy is: who decides. Maybe we let people decide for themselves who they choose not to associate with instead of Somin telling us who is 'in' the circle and who is not.
Nobody's asserting equivalence. Two things can both be bad but in totally different ways.
Cigarettes are bad for you and mercury is bad for you. They're not equivalent. But also, mercury being bad for you doesn't make cigarettes healthy.
Those fired should be limited to those whose views and practices (practice MUST be included, or we'd never know said views) negatively impact their ability to do the job, or fails to differentiate their views as seen, with their employer.
This also goes for other organizations as well. Enabling cancellation more broadly encourages martyrdom and further separation from those who disagree with them.
This is like a gay marriage person saying 'That is immoral what you say" and yet claiming there is no morality. Like slavery as I always say. Lincoln said "they don't want you to say slavery [ abortion, homosexuality, whatever ] is legal , they demand you say "IT IS A SOCIAL GOOD"