The Volokh Conspiracy
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Remembering September 12, 2001
Every year, I post a remembrance of September 11, 2001. It is also worth remembering what happened on September 12, 2001. Around the globe, there was unified support for the United States, and the victims of atrocious acts of horror. Everyone was willing to stand in solidarity with Americans. Virtue signaling is always easy enough.
But that uniform support faded rather quickly. As it became clear that the United States was on a war footing, the opposition began. On September 14, the ANSWER Coalition formed. (The acronym stood for "Act Now to Stop War and End Racism.") By September 29, ANSWER and others organized protests against military intervention in Afghanistan. And on October 7, 2001, the United States invaded Afghanistan. (That day I was doing a campus visit of NYU, a school I was admitted to, but decided not to attend, in part, because I didn't want to be so close to lower-Manhattan--in hindsight, the absolute right decision that had nothing to do with terrorism.)
Over the next few years, the memories of 9/11 vanished. All of the tattered American flags were removed and the "thank you for your services" ended. There was a constant, never-ending series of public protests against the Afghanistan war, and later against the Iraq war. Students held "die-ins" on campus where they would pretend to be dead in coffins. President Bush was called Hitler over and over again. Musicians would weave in anti-war themes into their songs. (For years, I couldn't listen to Green Day.) And so on. Thank the lord there was no social media in the day.
There may be some sense of unity now, only a few days after the October atrocities in Israel. But it will fade very, very quickly. And we all know how things will go--especially since this war will involve the Jewish state. There is nothing new under the sun.
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The world was with us until the Bush Administration stupidly took its eye off the ball and built a fraudulent case for invading Iraq.
Most of the world is smarter than us. Don't let Josh rewrite history that happened when he was not in a position to maturely remember it.
Most of the world is NOT smarter than us. They are just as dumb as us, and we are just as dumb as them.
Pretty sorry ass self-esteem you got there.
It wasn't a question of being "smart" or "stupid". It was a matter of being willing to let the weapons-merchants lead us by the nose through the fog of war.
Bush, Sr. "Oops, my war was too soon before the election, and the weight its success carried faded."
Bush, Jr. "Lesson learned. If events induce war early, find a way to extend it."
I think the traditional Democratic narrative involves blaming Cheney for all the clever/cunning things the Bush administration did.
That is also my recollection, Martin.
>>Most of the world is smarter than us.
LOL Plenty of really dumb people in America including Bush II. But this completely unhinged take right here shows who wins the prize in the low intelligence contest. Maybe replace us with yourself then the statement would be true.
Alzheimers is a terrible disease.
The area of your Hippocampus where you used to remember Barry Hussein Osama sending 100,000 troops to Off-Gone-E-Ston because it was "The Good War" is strewn with Neurofibrillary Tangles.
from the NY Times, not exactly Steve Banno's "War Room"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/01/world/asia/obama-afghanistan-war.html
"It was a crucial turning point in the evolution of Barack Obama. The antiwar candidate of 2008 who had pledged to turn around Afghanistan — the “good war” to George W. Bush’s “bad war” in Iraq — had conceded that the longest military operation in American history would not end on his watch. The optimistic president who once thought Afghanistan was winnable had, through bitter experience, become the commander in chief of a forever war."
Frank "Facts are like Hilary Rodman, a Bitch"
And it's National Pubic Broadcasting's "Frontline" so take it with a grain of salt,
from 2009 "Obama's War"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3-FDWSRabM
Frank
Must have been a pretty good case if it fooled Barry Hussein, Hilary Rodman, and Parkinsonian Joe, back when he was just Plagiarizing Joe.
IIRC Obama voted against war with Saddam
He voted against the war before he was for it.
You do not recall correctly; Obama did oppose it, but he wasn't in office to vote against it.
(Well, he was in an office — but nobody asks members of the Illinois state senate for their input into our nation's military plans.)
As I recall, you've caught me out on two or three timeline snafus. With real admiration, I concede you the timeline champ!
My Bad,
"Barry Hussein Osama was against the war before he he was for the war."
Most of the world is smarter than us.
This is sort of the reverse of what Hobbes (and I think Descartes) said about wisdom.
For someone complaining about rewriting history, you're doing an awful lot of it yourself.
I'm not so sure that Bush did the wrong thing -- based on the information he was given. With what we have now learned about the CIA, I would not be at all surprised if he was intentionally misled.
I also don't like the close relationship between the Bush family and the House of Saud, particularly relative to OBL, who was the son of a major construction magnate in Saudi Arabia.
But I blame American academia for sabotaging our war efforts in both Afganistan and Iraq, and what these pro-Hamas rallies are doing is *finally* opening Joe Sixpack's eyes as to the cesspools he is subsidizing.
Attacking the wrong country?
Torture?
Putting counterproductive assholes in important positions?
Mission Accomplished?
Dr. Ed 2 : "I’m not so sure that Bush did the wrong thing — based on the information he was given"
He hyped WMDs and his proposed war like Madison Avenue does toothpaste, so I think your excuse is inadequate. I'd substitute this apologia for W:
He honestly thought there'd be WMDs to find once we shifted thru the rubble of Saddam's deposed regime, therefore shameless lies over them prewar were harmless. He was astounded when absolutely nothing was found.
I really think that's the best spin available for W Bush.
George W. Bush seems to have meant well but he was severely overmatched as president. He might have been a reasonable caretaker president during a relatively uneventful term but was a flailing failure as a president under pressure, in large part because he was an avid, credulous consumer of spectacularly bad advice and a serial hirer of amoral, inept dopes.
He was a towering tribute to overconfidence, lack of intellectual curiosity, nepotism, and lack of qualifications.
Most of the world is smarter than us.
Do you have a mouse in your pocket?
Had the Bush crowd located and killed Osama bin Ladin, and left the other trillions of American dollars at home and spared the lives of thousands of American military, our republic would be in a much better place today. Had Congress not created another federal employee union in the TSA as it rolled up agencies in a DHS, we would all be freer today. But the new world order cabal saw an opportunity and took it.
Maybe where you're from.
If there was already *organized* opposition on September 14, then the support on September 12 was not unified.
Odd. This is the first time I'm hearing of this powerful, dominating organization.
On the other hand, Republican assholes are not shy about throwing in with strongman ball lickers. Putin precisely duplicated Hitler's start of WWII, but nevermind. The test case for those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, we loudly choose to fail because some guy tells us to, and we, from politician to talking head, have our financial fates tied to him.
Clinton gave us Putin.
Na und?
UMass Hamas was silenced on Sept 12th.
Interesting how different people run in different circles. I live in far-left Santa Monica. One of the most liberal places in America…on a par with Berkeley, Austin, Portland, etc..
One does not see a ton of military walking around. But it’s a very touristy place, and there are some uniformed soldiers on leave that I every day that I'm walking or biking around. When I am walking around the Promenade (my city’s most famous and most visited “walk” street, filled with restaurants, theaters, bars, etc), I consistently hear “Thank you for your service.” around these men and women in uniform. Often bartenders give them a free drink, an eatery will give a free appetizer or dessert. Total strangers will offer free drinks, etc, as well. I've seen this a lot.
Long gone are the Viet Nam days, where returning soldiers were literally spit on, and called “baby murderers.” The liberals here–even regarding wars they thought were wrong or immoral–recognize that soldiers are doing their duty, are following orders, are often risking their lives, and so on.
At least here; it’s been a sea-change since the 9/11 attacks. Josh, sorry you’re not experiencing the same thing. Come to liberal California, if you want to be surrounded by ordinary folks who respect and honor and appreciate those in the armed forces.
I’m from that generation and I don’t remember Vietnam veterans being “literally spat upon”. The phrase was a rhetorical flourish that over the years found its way to a literal meaning.
But otherwise you are correct.
https://m.startribune.com/disrespect-for-vietnam-vets-is-fact-not-fiction/160444095/
HTH.
Obama agrees with you: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/la-xpm-2012-may-30-la-obama-vietnam-veterans-20120530-story.html
(But, as best as I can tell from a few minutes of desk research, the consensus scholarly view is that it didn't happen on any material scale.)
That it happened at all is a disgrace (meaning, veterans being spat upon).
It's the law of large numbers: just about any disgraceful thing happens somewhere some of the time.
How much of your desk research found that people mostly relied on one guy with an agenda (Jerry Lembcke), who was the target of the rebuttal that I linked to?
There are also a number of interesting (purported, pseudonymous) first-hand accounts at https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/zqwo52/where_returning_vietnam_soldiers_actually/ . See also https://volokh.com/posts/chain_1170519427.shtml .
I did notice that, yes. That didn't result in me relying on reddit as a source, but it did cause me to be very careful not to say that it didn't happen. It probably did, somewhere. But I don't think the evidence is there that it was common enough to be emblematic of the experience of the typical veteran.
Maybe you don’t remember because you’re not a Vietnam Veteran and it didn’t happen to you. I certainly took shit from my teacher the year my dad spent at the Pentagon when we lived in Laurel Maryland (famous as the site where George Wallace (Demokkkrat BTW) was almost assassinated.) One of those “What does my dad do” essays, (funny, liberal Maryland and the teacher didn’t realize Mom’s worked too) and my
“My Dad flies B52’s and drops bombs on Commies”
didn’t go over well (it did with the class, not Miss Crabapple)
OTOH when we returned from Desert Storm we had a brief layover at JFK before returning to Cherry Point, were allowed to walk around the gate area (had to leave our weapons on the 747) Dressed in our Desert Cami’s all we got were “God Bless You!!” “Welcome Home!” Hugs from the buxom Stewardesses TWA had back then (hey now!) even from the JFK gate agents who aren’t known as the friendliest sort.
Frank “My Dad can drop Hydrogen bombs on your Dad”
It may also have been because., like now, you were a racist POS, of course
Nope, Ms. Crabapple was an older white lady.
I walked around Berkeley in spring 1973, in uniform, and never had any kind of confrontation. I have never met any veteran who claimed he had been spat upon.
The end of the VN war was before my time (I was alive, but quite young). So, my claim was definitely only based on stories I heard on the news from soldiers. At that time; I never even considered that they were being metaphorical. But, yes, that version seems absolutely as plausible as being literally spat upon. I'd be very happy to have been wrong about this, for lo' these many years.
The first time I ever heard of a Viet vet being even insulted was in the movie “Nashville”, which I saw in 1980. The Keith Carradine character says to a man in uniform, “How many kids did you kill over there?” I was shocked and very much put off, because otherwise the Carradine character was depicted in a positive light as a justified nonconformist. For me it deflated the whole rest of the movie.
I will say this — the worst racism I have personally witnessed was from (some) Viet vets I went to college with. When they got together their tirades against “gooks” were worse than anything I’ve heard anyone say about black people.
Funny how people carry grudges against peoples trying to kill them. My American Grandfather used to talk about the Kraut's he wasted in France with his BAR (I'd tell you but.....) My German/Jewish Grandfather probably had some unkind words for the B-17's that bombed Brandenburg. Fortunately, they never got to meet, that whole "Iron Curtain" thang.
It's like Jerry Sandusky calling everyone south of the Mason & Dixon Line "Klingers" and pretty sure none of them ever tried to kill him (I'd leave that to his fellow prisoners)
Frank
Guess you never heard about how Saint FDR put the then gooks (Japs) in detention camps, you asshole!
Penn State over NYU? This guy’s judgment has been . . . consistent.
That explains the disdain for the people who disliked attacking the wrong country.
Carry on, clinger.
Fuck off, Jerry,
You and Prof. Blackman deserve each other.
And what’s coming to you in the culture war, delivered by better Americans.
That's what got you where you are now Jerry, the "cumming"
and I was beginning to believe maybe you weren't Coach Sandusky
but then you go ahead and redeem yourself and respond within a few minutes, and at 5:30 am.
Speaking of things "Coming" any word on Senator S-S-S-S-S-tuttering John F-F-F-F-etterman's commutation package? Might want to check on that, you know how neckties reduce flow in the carotid arteries, might not be good for a Senator with a recent Stroke,
Frank "Carrying On"
These are your fans and defenders, Volokh Conspirators . . . and the reason strong law school faculties have begun to improve at your expense.
It's kind of sad that this guy thinks a humble-brag about being admitted to NYU is even worth dropping.
The phenomenon has been described accurately. Maybe the question to ask is why it happens.
طوفان الأقصى (al-Aqsa Flood, Tufan al-Aqsa) took place because 76 years ago the Zionist colonial settlers put into the operation the genocide, which had been meticulously planned since Dec 1946 and which will not have ended until Palestinians return to their homes, property, homes, and country.
On Dec 11, 1946 the international community banned genocide and made this ban jus cogens. Palestinians have been waiting for 75 years for the international community to obey its own law, end the Zionist state, and enable Palestinian return.
The creation of a Zionist state in Palestine was always predicated on the genocide of Palestinians.
Zionist colonial settlers went insane when they realized (a) that Palestinians constitute a slight majority of the population in stolen Palestine and (b) that the Palestinian population is much younger than the Zionist colonial settler population.
Since this Israeli government took power, it accelerated the never ending genocide.
Hamas responded by making a stand now instead of waiting for a death of a thousand cuts as Zionist colonial settlers murder children, make living conditions unbearable, and steal el-Aksa along with other Palestinian holy sites.
Only white racists support Zionism. Only white states stand with Israel. Everyone else loathes the Zionist state with complete justice. Unless the USA acknowledges the complete evil of Zionism and reverses course in the conflict over Palestine, the Biden administration will cause the USA to be hated and rejected at a level that will make disillusion with GWB's policy seem completely insignificant.
Then I’m a white race-ist, Bee-otch. We’re gonna be hated? Oh Dearie, what are you A-rabs gonna do? fly Jets into buildings? Massacre women and children? and I know it’s Algores Internets and you could be KSM down in Guantanamo (Interesting place, great Iguanas, and the Banana Rats are cool too) but you’re about as much a Jew as Mitt Romeney. I know it’s Friday the 13th, and Rumors you Moose-lum Fucks (I always get that Sunni/Shit-ite thang mixed up) are gonna try something (wanta try something? try “Soap”) today, Well, Moe-hammad, most of my Jewish friends are “Packing” you fucks try any thing it’s not going to go well for you. We’re not a bunch of unarmed young chicks at a Rave (nothing against unarmed young chicks at a Rave) Or sleeping settlers at Kibbutz Be-eri
Oh yeah, tell me again why citizens don't need access to AR-15's?
Frank “not a threat, a warning”
In his last sentence Blackman treats us to an example of VuzVuz omphaloskepsis. He helps me to understand why my mother (a Jewish Berber) has so much disdain for Ashkenazim.
It's not a Jewish state. It's a Zionist state, which is post-Judaism because Zionism murdered Judaism by transforming Judaism into a program of genocide. The Zionist state represents absolute evil and is poisoning the world.
"The Zionist state represents absolute evil and is poisoning the world."
In no particular order, Rwandan, DPRK (North Korea), Iran, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Mao's Cultural Revolution, Zimbabwe, Ida Amin's Uganda, etc, etc, etc....
Martillo claims he’s not not an antisemite.
"Only white racists support Zionism."
Then I'm proud to be a White racist.
What you fail to understand are two things. First, if you call everyone a "racist", then no one is a racist -- and you're going beyond that to making being a "racist" a *good* and *positive* thing.
Second, like any group of human beings, there will be Zionists who go overboard and the occasional atrocity. Bleep happens -- but when it does, NO ONE WILL BELIEVE YOU.
L, as they say, OL.
Speaking of "Day Afters" (Fun Fact, In German "After" is the word for "Anus")
Dodgers, and yes, my Braves :(, certainly did about as well as Christ Christie's Weight Watchers membership,
but boy, the Dodger's could have used Trevor Bauer this last week,
The Braves too.
His future, I see, a MLB contract
Frank "Wait till next year!"
Looks like it's gonna be a Red State/Blue State World's Serious this year.
Houston/Texas winner vs Filthydelphia/Arizona winner
I'd mention that Houston was originally an NL team and never won a WS before "Transitioning" to the AL (and Cheating)
Texas used to be the Washington Senators, so Did the Minnesota Twins, and has there been another team literally 1 pitch from a WS that ended up losing?? (86 Redsox?? can't remember)
Frank
I have no idea what you think you're trying to say, Josh.
"National unity" after 9/11 is what gave us the Patriot Act, a second Bush term, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and a profound shift in American identity that you were evidently too self-absorbed at the time to notice. Yet you complain about the dissension within the ranks, primarily among college students and pop stars. To what end?
The virtue signaling around "solidarity with Israel" - and, to be clear, "virtue signaling" is precisely what you're doing here, you smarmy ass - is, as far as I can tell, just about providing carte blanche to the Israeli regime to commit war crimes at will in Gaza. Our experience after 9/11 ought to counsel us to proceed with more deliberation. It took us many years to start to come to terms with the fact that we overthrew one government on false pretenses and overthrew another one without a concrete plan for the follow-through - resulting ultimately in bringing us all the way back to square one. If Israel engages in mass atrocities in Gaza, it may similarly take us some time to take full stock of what our short-sighted bloodlust wrought.
But anyone with a capacity to learn from one's mistakes and develop wisdom should be seeing plenty of warning signs, in the way that the media and our politicians are covering the Hamas attacks and the Israeli response. The attempts to force Palestinian supporters into silence that we're seeing ought to give pause to anyone who's been caterwauling for months about Facebook censorship of anti-vaxx messaging.
You are not, sadly, such a person, Josh. In a single post, you wrap your arms around 9/11, drop an irrelevant autobiographical note about a credential you never earned, and make a confused point about how collective, bloodthirsty outrage never lasts because, sadly, people are capable of seeing where it leads us. You are, what, twice as old as you were then? How are you still a man-child?
I would wager that Josh Blackman regrets missing a chance to enable torturers. At Federalist Society gatherings, while the torture team is trying to avoid the subject, Prof. Blackman might be the guy incessantly pressing them for details.
Sympathy for America was not worldwide. I saw video of Palestinians dancing with glee on September 11. This is one of several reasons why I will never sympathize with any part of their cause. I will dance with glee when it happens to them. YMMV.
When Israel's supporters ask for a do-over after America stops supporting Israel -- and better Americans demonstrate no inclination to reconsider support for right-wing assholes and an authoritarian and superstition-laced government -- perhaps you can reminisce about this comment as you ponder the predictable consequences of an Israel that does not get to operate behind American skirts.
I remember John Kerry deciding he needed to be pro-war because that was the way the wind was blowing. I remember John Kerry deciding he needed to be anti-war because that was the way the wind was blowing.
I remember when a yellow sticker on your SUV meant you supported the troops without doing anything, much like a few years later a yard sign meant you supported peace in Darfur without doing anything. See also the song "The Bumper of My SUV" by Chely Wright.
I remember John Kerry deciding he needed to be pro-war because that was the way the wind was blowing. I remember John Kerry deciding he needed to be anti-war because that was the way the wind was blowing.
Like Obama and Biden with SSM.
An ahistorical recollection, Blackman, as a couple of commenters have pointed out. Only a few Dirty Fucking Hippies protested Afghanistan. But you’re right that there were massive protests against Iraq II. Largely ignored by the MSM. And the intervening twenty years proved the DFHs were right to oppose both.
Only a few Dirty Fucking Hippies protested Afghanistan.
Speaking of historical revisionism…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Afghanistan
But you’re right that there were massive protests against Iraq II. Largely ignored by the MSM
Those protests were plastered all over the news. It appears your head has been lodged up your lower GI tract for a very long time.
September 12 2001 - The day that the concept of national security was radically redefined in the US and the power of the US government was radically expanded.
I skipped this post when it came out. But on reading it now, it’s a mistake.
One could easily take the view that the United States was justified in attacking Al Qaida and its bases and leadership in Afghanistan in a limited war similar to the first Gulf War, but was not justified in installing a puppet government, expanding the war to Iraq, and staying for 20 years.
One could easily think American policy in Afghanistan in the years after 9/11 was unwise, counterproductive, even unjust, yet distinguish it from what is happening today in both Ukraine and Israel.
Indeed, I’d suggest linking the two is a net negative, and a really bad one. It reinforces the idea that Israel is just like the former regime in Afghanistan (as this view sees it), just another American/Western puppet government imported and propped up from abroad, with little native legitimacy or support, which will collapse as soon as the Americans get tired and distracted, and can be successfully brought down with a combination of guerilla military force and terror as the Afghan regime was.
The Israeli-supporting American right made a grave mistake by making support of Israel a partisan issue, linking it, as Professor Blackman does in this post, both to support of various other foreign adventures that the Democratic party has opposed, and to various right-wing domestic policy views.
Such linkage is a terrible idea. Creating such a linkage in the public mind increases the likelihood that people who oppose these other foreign and domestic policies will buy into the linkage and conclude they should also oppose Israel.
Israel needs friends on both sides of the aisle. Frankly it needs as many friends as it can get. To get and keep them, it and its supporters have to do their best to separate support for Israel from other issues that are sources of controversy between the parties, and to make it clear that you can support Israel regardless of whether your politics veer right or left on other matters.
Professor Blackman’s post, by making support for Israel a right-wing partisan issue and all but directly arguing that people who opposed the Afghan and 2nd Iraq wars should also be opposing Israel, gravely undermines this.
Once again, you can (and should) support Israel even if you opposed the extended Afghan war and other questionable American foreign policy decisions, just as you can (and should) support Ukraine even if you opposed them.
This view – just another puppet regime propped up by the Americans with no native legitimacy or support – was also Putin’s view of Ukraine.
Facts, and an objective historical perspective shorn of ideological blinkers, matter. Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan could all with some reasonable fairness be characterized as essentially puppet regimes, foreign imports, with few native roots or legitimacy, propped up by the Americans. That is just not true, however, of either Israel or Ukraine. The difference is critical. The distinction should be emphasized, not undermined. Israel (and Ukraine) should not lose the anti-colonialism left (or right) by tying support for it to support for American policies that more closely resembled colonial adventures.