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Rethinking Columbus
Conservative columnist Jeff Jacoby explains why he reconsidered his previous favorable view of Columbus. The man was a brutal promoter of slavery - even by moral standards understood in his own time.

Christopher Columbus is one of a number of historical icons who has come under left-wing attack in recent decades, with the result that many jurisdictions have abandoned Columbus Day and replaced it with Indigenous People's Day. Some of this left-wing historical revisionism is unjustified and unfair. For example, I think they are mostly wrong in their denigration of the American Revolution. But, on some issues, they have a point, as in the case of taking down Confederate monuments. We should not honor people whose main claim to fame is fighting a bloody war in defense of the evil institution of slavery.
The left is also right about Christopher Columbus. In a column posted yesterday, conservative Boston Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby eloquently explains why he reconsidered his previous position on this matter:
In 1997 I wrote a column for Columbus Day weekend that opened on a smart-alecky note: "Say," I asked, "is it OK to admire Christopher Columbus again?"…
"For all his flaws," I concluded, "he was magnificent."
I wouldn't write that today. My view has changed….
In general, I consider it dishonest and arrogant to measure individuals who lived centuries ago by standards that didn't exist in their day or to judge them pitilessly for behavior that we find detestable but that they and their world would have regarded as normal.
But what changed my mind about Columbus wasn't anything written or said by his modern detractors. It was the testimony of his contemporaries….
Columbus returned from his first voyage to what he mistakenly called the Indies with a dozen abducted natives, as well as plans to capture and exploit many more. His first trip had been rushed, he told the monarchs, but on his next he was sure he could amass "slaves in any number they may order."
The king and queen ordered him to do no such thing. In written instructions dated May 12, 1493, they directed Columbus to "endeavor to win over the inhabitants" to Christianity and not harm or coerce them….
During his second journey to the Caribbean, historian Edward T. Stone wrote in a 1975 essay for American Heritage, Columbus captured a large number of indigenous men, women, and children, sending them back as cargo in 12 ships to be sold in the slave market at Seville…..
[R]eports of the savagery, slaughter, and enslavement committed by Columbus could not be ignored indefinitely. In 1500, the Spanish sovereigns finally lowered the boom. They commissioned Francisco de Bobadilla to investigate and report on the admiral's conduct. After gathering information from Columbus's supporters and detractors, Bobadilla filed a no-holds-barred indictment detailing the cruelties committed by Columbus and his lieutenants.
"Punishments included cutting off people's ears and noses, parading women naked through the streets, and selling them into slavery," reported The Guardian when a copy of Bobadilla's statement was discovered in 2006….
The charges were taken seriously. Very seriously: Bobadilla had Columbus arrested and shipped back to Spain — in chains — to stand trial. It was, in Stone's words, a "harsh and humiliating" downfall. Columbus eventually received a royal pardon, but Ferdinand and Isabella refused to restore his position as governor of the Indies….
Another of Columbus's contemporaries to excoriate his deeds was Bartolomé de las Casas….
Five years ago I read Las Casas's most famous work, "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies," which he published in 1542. It is ferocious in its wrath and graphic in its descriptions of the horrors inflicted on the native people. He raged against the sadism, greed, and treachery of the Spaniards. No one who reads his book can cling to the belief that condemnations of Columbus are nothing but 20/20 hindsight, or that they are based on moral standards by which no one in the 1500s would have judged him.
Las Casas and other 16th century natural law theorists, such as Francisco Vitoria, knew that it was wrong to conquer and enslave Native Americans. As Jacoby notes, even the King and Queen of Spain realized that, though they were happy to support it when it served their interests to do so.
The evil of enslavement was something people were entirely capable of understanding in Columbus's time. Thus, there was no excuse for his horrific actions. And none of his achievements as a mariner and explorer even begin to outweigh that evil. For that reason, Columbus deserves to be condemned, not celebrated. You don't have to be a "woke" leftist to understand that. Jacoby should be commended for recognizing a situation where ideological opponents turn out to be right about something. In this age of poisonous polarization, the rest of us can learn from his example.
If we conclude that Columbus is unworthy of honor and celebration, it is fair to ask whether the same point applies to the American Founding Fathers, many of whom also owned slaves, and also had good reason to know it was wrong.
In my view, they do indeed deserve condemnation for being slaveowners. But their achievements - including in helping to curb slavery over time - still justify honoring them, though we should not forget the wrongs they did. The scale of their liberty-enhancing achievements differentiates them from people like Columbus and the leaders of the Confederacy, who did little if any good to balance their great evil. On these points, my view is similar to that of Frederick Douglass. I summarized it here:
I have argued that, on balance, the Revolution gave an important boost to the antislavery cause, in both America and Europe—most notably by inspiring the "First Emancipation"—the abolition of slavery in the northern states, which was an essential prerequisite to eventual nationwide abolition.
I do not, believe, however, that this fact completely exempts the Founders from severe criticism on their record with respect to slavery. Most obviously, they still deserve condemnation for the fact that many of them were slaveowners themselves. People like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison, and George Mason all owned slaves throughout most of their lives, even though they well knew it was wrong and a violation of their own principles….
In addition to failing to free their own slaves, most of the Founders also failed to prioritize the abolition of slavery as an institution. They did take some important steps, such as promoting abolition in the northern states, barring the spread of slavery to the "Old Northwest," and eventually banning the importation of new slaves from abroad. But they pretty clearly did not give abolishing the greatest moral evil in the new republic the priority it deserved….
With great power, comes great responsibility. When it comes to slavery, most of the people who wielded great power in revolutionary America and the early republic failed to fully live up to theirs.
But the condemnation they deserve for that failure must be balanced against the very real progress they made possible—including on the issue of slavery. In addition, we should remember that we ourselves may not be free of the same types of faults.
It is far from unusual for people to set aside principles when they collide with self-interest. How many of us really prioritize doing what is right when doing so requires us to pay a high price? We like to think that, if we were in Jefferson's place, we would have freed our slaves and prioritized abolition. But it is far from clear we would actually have the courage and commitment to do so.
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Somin, as usual, is completely wrong.
Somin, as so often, is exactly right.
Bottom line, discovery of the "New World" ranks as one of the great turning points in human history regardless of Chris's personal attributes or behaviors.
Discovered even though the place was peopled and the Vikings likely got there first. Discovered in the sense that it created new knowledge that could be shared with all humanity.
Nope, because he bases his conclusions on lies - the same sort you uncritically believe.
Columbus was arrested on vague accusations, misrepresentations, and straight up lies. Bartolomé de las Casas, who was indeed one of the most vocal defenders of the native Indians, praised Columbus for his protection of the Indians from the worst Spanish depredations. After Columbus was removed by his political opponent, there was no longer any such protection - and the writings of las Casas document many crimes during that time period, even naming the perpetrators - none of whom were Columbus.
Want to guess who the replacement for Columbus as Governor was, the man who committed so many well-documented crimes against the natives?
The very Francisco de Bobadilla who created these false accusations ("investigated" in just days after his arrival!), arrested Columbus, and then appointed himself replace Columbus in the very lucrative job.
Unfortunately for him, he lasted only two years before the Crown, disgusted by his behavior, sent another agent to strip him of his titles and send him back to Spain in chains to face trial. It's too bad he "drowned in a storm" - he deserved to be 'questioned' about his crimes.
The article's claim that las Casas condemned Columbus is a lie, shown by merely reading the man's writings, easily available online. Bobadilla and several later Governors are called out for their crimes. Columbus? Not at all.
Columbus was not a "good man" by most moderns standards - but by 16th century standards he was so nice to the natives that the original charge Bobadilla was sent to investigate was "unfair" abuse of the Spanish settlers.
Columbus is a much less bad version of Caesar or Genghis Khan or Napoleon or other people who directly and intentionally killed and destroyed far more lives but people have no problem recognizing as impactful and even admiring who arre like it or not are enormously consequential. I agree you don’t have to necessarily worship him but I see a lot of people trying to erase him completely.
Of course for leftists its not really about who is bad and who isn't. Its about replacing the old pantheon with a new pantheon that epitomizes their ideology. The don't hold their own heroes to the same standards. People like Marx and Che and Harvey Milk and MLK have skeletons in their closet that are as bad or worse than some of the people leftists have demanded be canceled but continue to be celebrated with far less controversy.
Amos 'whatabout' Arch. You make this easy
It's not even good what abouting. For one thing, not all leftists are Marxists who are enamored of Marx and Che.
It is conceded that if you put anybody's life under a microscope you'll find bad stuff. But Martin Luther King's bad stuff was plagiarism and adultery, and the idea that that is somehow comparable to mass murder and mass enslavement is too ridiculous for words.
Not sure what he thinks the dirt is on Harvey Milk; I've heard the allegation that he was a pedophile though I've never seen any actual evidence for it. And if that is true, it's inexcusable, and I would agree that that's a sufficient reason not to put up any statues of him. So I'll grant him one out of four of the examples he gave.
I never said MLK specifically is as bad as columbus. Just that you guys don't hold your heroes to the same standard as you hold others. MLK....allegedly.... beat and enjoyed watching women be beaten and raped. His records were conveniently sealed and some were destroyed, so it doesn't look to flattering. People were demanding that people like James Webb's name be removed from the telescope because he was supposedly a meanie to LFDKDKLFDLKFJLDFKLDLF. Also its not just an allegation. Harvey Milk did have an underage lover.
If you have evidence for your claims about MLK and Harvey Milk I’d be interested in seeing it. How old was the allegedly underage lover, and how old was Harvey Milk at the time? Depending on the ages, having an underage lover does not necessarily make one a pedophile.
If the only complaint about Columbus was that he had an underaged lover I doubt anyone would care. And to the extent that the left doesn’t hold its heroes to the same standard, most of the time that’s because the what aboutism doesn’t stand up to analysis; the facts and circumstances end up being completely different.
By the way, when I was fourteen I had a sexual encounter with a twelve year old, making us both technically guilty of statutory rape and also the victims of statutory rape. Does that make me a bad person, or just a sexually curious kid?
Yes I am whatabout when its precisely what the post 'is about'.
In a post about standards it is okay to point out leftists don't obey the standards they are championing.
MLK does have a holiday named after him, but I seem to have missed the recent proclamations in the US regarding Marx Day, Che Day and Harvey Milk Day.
"In California, Harvey Milk Day is recognized by the state's government as a day of special significance for public schools."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Milk_Day
I was about to make the same point about Genghis Khan but a prudent google informed me he has a Mongolian holiday.
Marx and Che and Harvey Milk might not officially be celebrated specifically by the United States nationwide but they are more widely and noncontroversially celebrated than some other cancelled figures that are regarded as opposed to the left.
Columbus was the most consequential human who ever lived. He reunited the humans of the Old World and the New World after thousands of years apart. By doing so, he very well may have single-handedly saved humanity. Anyone who denies this does so solely to signal shoddy virtues and may be disregarded accordingly.
Well I will give Columbus credit, but it's pretty apparent that day and age ship and navigation technology would have made the discovery inevitable within a decade or 2.
After all the Portuguese rounded the cape of good hope in Africa in 1488, and the close timing is not merely coincidence.
You could say that about any scientific, technological, or really any achievement. Einstein wasn't that big a deal. Someone would have discovered relativity eventually. Julius Caesar wasn't that big a deal someone would have taken advantage of Rome's turmoil eventually.
Cabral discovered Brazil in 1500 by what may or may not have been an accident. (It's possible the Portuguese already knew.) In any case, America would have been discovered by 1500.
Leif Erickson discovered America way before Columbus. John Blow may have discovered calculus way before Newton in 400 BC. But Columbus got the ball rolling. And thats what really matters in history. If we really want to factor in 'inevitability' we should apply it to everyone not just random assholes leftwing outrage merchants decide to get butthurt over.
AmosArch : “Einstein wasn’t that big a deal. Someone would have discovered relativity eventually. Julius Caesar wasn’t that big a deal someone would have taken advantage of Rome’s turmoil eventually”
On Einstein, I’m not sure “eventually” wouldn’t have been a very long time. General Relativity has strong conceptual – even intuitive – components. It wouldn’t have been easy for someone else to step into his shoes. On the other hand, with something like the Crick-Watson model of DNA, the discovery might have come just a year later without them. Lots of people were working on it and all the pieces were available.
On Caesar, you’re mistaken on a few levels. First, people had already taken advantage of Rome’s political instability on multiple occasions before him: The Gracchi brothers, Marius and Sulla being prime examples. Second, Caesar wasn’t really interested in “taking advantage” of Rome’s turmoil. He was pushed, poked, and prodded into crossing the Rubicon by oligarchic enemies in the Senate determined to destroy him on the battlefield or in the law courts. Indeed, Caesar only wanted his second Consulship and offered his enemies compromise after compromise to defuse the situation.
It was their stubborn refusal to abandon the cherished dream of defeating Caesar (who had cuckolded many of them) that led to disaster, particular the mulish stupidity of Cato the Younger – easily the most overrated figure in all of history. Add to that the ham-fisted machinations of Pompey and no offer by Caesar (however generous) was ever considered.
Lastly, Caesar was a big deal. That era of Rome was full of titanic figures, but he was the most brilliant of them all. His one flaw? He spent his entire life fighting obstructionist factions in the Senate, who preferred doing nothing rather someone else getting credit. But when Caesar had absolute power, he made plenty of sensible actions but was unable or unwilling to propose real structural reform. He was about to leave for war against the Parthian Empire when assassinated. He would have conquered them (which might well have changed history) but the proposed campaign was an evasion for his lack of political vision in Rome.
People argue others were anticipating relativity before Einstein so yeah I don't think eventually would have been very long. Also technology was advancing to the point where flaws in the classical model would become obvious very soon. I doubt we'd be launching James Webb still believing in the luminiferous aether. For Caesar, you don't say anything specific about why someone couldn't eventually end the Republic like Caesar did. Arguably Octavian did what he would have eventually done.
AmosArch : "For Caesar, you don’t say anything specific about why someone couldn’t eventually end the Republic like Caesar did"
Indeed, I said the exact opposite, The Republic almost collapsed several times before Caesar, sometimes surviving by mere luck alone. Sulla was a much more ruthless Dictator (the title of the position) and could have easily ended the Republic forty years earlier. Instead, he was just quirky enough to retire from rule - allegedly to chase women and boys in Rome's theater scene. Just before him, Gaius Marius might have destroyed the Republic in orgy of vindictive violence but dropped down dead a fortnight into his seventh consulship.
I won't mention the Catilinarian conspiracy because (Cicero's vanity notwithstanding) it never struck me as serious.
AmosArch : "People argue others were anticipating relativity before Einstein"
Huh. There are a couple of massively long Wikipedia articles making that argument, so point taken.
(every once in a while I like to take the liberating step of admitting I'm wrong, something few others in this forum do. Of course given I'm rarely wrong, it's not a heavy burden)
(Not my joke, but):
Q:What did Crick and Watson discover?
A: Rosalind Franklin's notes
Rosalind Franklin deserves celebration for her work and definitely was a victim of crude sexism. She was brought to King’s College to do a job, X-ray crystallography, and did that work superbly. That should have been enough, but because she was a woman, Maurice Franklin got his panties twisted in a knot, James Watson found her a freakish figure worth caricature, and people in general sneered she was standoffish and prickly. Many a male scientist are both those things without being driven from their labs. Franklin was a woman so she was.
That said, the meme Watson and Crick robbed her is wrong. It’s primarily based on the famous Photo 51, but there are two issues with that: First, there was nothing improper about Wilkins showing the picture to Watson. Franklin was in the process of transferring to Birkbeck College and her King’s College work had passed to Wilkins. He was free to show it to whomever he chose. Second, the picture itself wasn’t critical (despite grand dramatization by the unreliable Watson). Yes, it showed a double helix, but Crick and Watson had already committed to that form over two years earlier.
Far more crucial was Franklin’s MRC report summarizing her work. Crick’s thesis advisor, Max Perutz, gave him a copy of the report, which contained detailed data on the helix and provided one critical clue everyone else (including Franklin) missed : That the helical strands went in opposite directions, requiring two complete turns to complete the structure. There were still multiple pieces to fall into place, but Crick and Watson were both glad handlers, talking to everybody and people dropped one clue after another into their hands. Franklin, of course, had no one to talk to except her lab assistant.
Some people have made a deal over Crick getting the MRC report, though there was nothing secret or confidential about it. However Franklin provided the same info in an earlier lecture open to all (with Watson there in attendance). Famously it all went over his head because (as he wrote later) he spent the talk staring at her legs.
(Typo above : Maurice Wilkins, not Franklin)
"James Watson found her a freakish figure worth caricature, "
Freakish figure? What in the world are you talking about?
"Famously it all went over his head because (as he wrote later) he spent the talk staring at her legs."
Was that just a very strange way of saying she was hot looking?
No, Brett. I have a myriad of ways to describe women as hot and that’s not one. On the other hand, “freakish” can describe other aspects of a person besides appearance. There’s a famous scene in Watson’s book where he describes himself almost physically attacked by Franklin. It reads as high exaggeration, as does much of the book’s references to her. Given it was published years later (both in an original New Yorker article and the book that followed) when his fame was already secure, he could have been a bit more generous. But he wasn’t.
But "freakish figure" generally refers to appearance.
So Watson really didn't like Franklin. Or at least his view of her was complicated. For some reason.
Sigh. “Figure” is also a word with different meanings, but let’s set that aside. The major book I’ve read on the whole Watson-Crick-Franklin-Wilkins thing is The Eighth Day of Creation, and it’s pretty good. Given my interest in the topic, I sprung for a recent publication in audiobook, then discovered it was way, way into the “secret conspiracy against Franklin shtick, which I don’t think is serious.
But what I really want to recommend is a movie called both “Life Story” and “The Race for the Double Helix”. It stars Jeff Goldblum as Watson and is really pretty good, showing both the personal drama between the players and contrast between Franklin’s systematic experimental approach and the Watson/Crick jazzy method of improvisation, collaboration and model-building to play with formal ideas.
Unfortunately, the film is hostage to the education system, sold or leased to schools at staggering cost. However you can watch a (poor quality) version on YouTube or buy a (poor quality) bootleg dvd (which I did, and re-watched it just recently)
I read the term "found her a freakish figure" in this context meaning that she was a freakish person or maybe not quite a person, not that she looked weird. Whereas writing something like "found her figure freakish" or "found she had a freakish figure" would relate to her appearance.
Are you aware that Watson was not the man you excuse as someone who just took credit from someone else ???
DNA pioneer stripped of honors over ‘reprehensible’ race comments
"In 1997, Britain’s Sunday Telegraph quoted him as saying that women should be allowed to abort a child for any reason, such as if a gene for homosexuality were found in the fetus."
THe joke is on you
Huh? I noted - truthfully - that Watson and Crick didn't steal from Franklin. Beyond that, I didn't defend his character, Please note that Watson can be (and is) a notorious racist but still not be guilty of theft.
What I've heard is that Columbus actually knew there was land out there, because Norwegian cod fishermen were fishing off it, and just keeping it's presence a trade secret. And that the idea that he was crazy enough to think the globe was half as big as it actually was, was just a cover story.
But Columbus' discovery was what broke the secret, durably, so it doesn't really matter if other people had found it before him and it just hadn't become common knowledge.
If you want real unfairness, it's a couple continents being named after Amerigo Vespucci just because he was a snappy writer.
The guy who invented the bow and arrow was pretty consequential.
Columbus Day isn't about Christopher Columbus, no more than Martin Luther King Day is about MLK2.
No, Columbus day is an atonement for the way we treated the Italian immigrants, much like MLK2 day is an atonement for the way we treated Blacks. Sacco and Vanzetti was just part of it -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacco_and_Vanzetti
"We like to think that, if we were in Jefferson's place, we would have freed our slaves and prioritized abolition. But it is far from clear we would actually have the courage and commitment to do so."
I don't know whether Jefferson would have done that if he could, but it's well known he was teetering on bankruptcy for most of his adult life and both his land and slaves were entailed.
Just as someone can't donate their house to a religious order unless the mortgage is satisfied, Jefferson would have needed to pay off his debts before freeing his slaves.
Kazinski : “I don’t know whether Jefferson would have done that if he could, but it’s well known he was teetering on bankruptcy for most of his adult life and both his land and slaves were entailed.”
Well, yeah, but that’s a massive part of the picture. Tallying his pluses, Jefferson is a very sympathetic character. There’s his astounding intellect, love of learning, books and fine wines. What’s not to like? And he wasn’t just a gentlemen builder or amateur architect, but seriously pursued architecture with a rigorous vision and some genius. His Richmond Capitol was the model of embodying form to represent the new republic. His two houses were both extraordinary accomplishments in very different ways. And UVA is a wonder.
All good. But offsetting that was Jefferson astonishing self-indulgence. You can see that in some of his detail politics, which frequently ran off the rails into wild rhetoric and conspiracy mongering. You can also see it in his backstabbing, lies, and underhanded duplicity. And it’s definitely seen in T.J.’s inability to ever deny himself anything he wanted, which piled debt upon debt his entire life. And – of course – keeping his dead wife’s slave half-sister as mistress for decades and making no provisions for her upon his death.
There had to be a point where Jefferson understood his more idealistic talk on slavery required some minimum self-sacrifice to be personally relevant. But that point came and went. Idealism cost too much of the things he coveted to buy. Instead he retrenched, and by his death raged over the concessions of the Missouri Compromise. His own compromises had become total by then.
Don't see any relevance to that. The man saw clearly but couldn't act to implement it. So?
Allen C Guelzo gets it right , there are 2 sides
SIDE ONE
“Mr. Lincoln hated Thomas Jefferson as a man,” wrote William Henry Herndon, Lincoln’s law partner of 14 years — and “as a politician.” Especially after Lincoln read Theodore F. Dwight’s sensational, slash-all biography of Jefferson in 1839, Herndon believed “Mr. Lincoln never liked Jefferson’s moral character after that reading.”
SIDE TWO
But Jefferson also held out a second example to Lincoln, as the man who, for all his limitations and fixations, still managed to articulate certain universal truths about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Lincoln understood that Jefferson’s words — if not his practice — formed “the definitions and axioms of free society.”
Goodness, but aren't you full of points with zero relevance. First, I care little about Lincoln's opinion of Jefferson and don't see why it's important here. As for "saw clearly but couldn’t act to implement it", I could see clearly my monthly bills, but be unable to pay them due to wads of cash spent on hookers and cocaine.
But that would be on me - despite my clarity of vision.
You cover this very well, but I think it can be boiled down to this-
Jefferson was great, because he was an idealist and an intellectual whose lofty rhetoric is still quoted today. Also? He had good taste when it came to wine and houses.
On the other hand, Jefferson was a self-indulgent backstabbing little POS when it came to his own life, and seemed to believe that his lofty rhetoric only applied to others, not to him.
In 600 years our "Bettors" (HT Reverend Sandusky) will probably say some pretty bad things about us. Murdering millions of unborn humans for starters.
Frank
Sure. The women will probably all be wearing a Handmaidens-style red gown and cowl, while the taliban monks of that day illustrate hand-copied manuscripts for the illiterate peasants to goggle at.
Face it Frank, you were born in the wrong age
If humanity is still here in 600 years, which I'm beginning to doubt. I do not remember a time in which there are so many possible things that could end our tenure. There are half a dozen hot spots in which nuclear war is a real possibility. Another pandemic. A global famine or other catastrophe brought about by climate change. A takeover by artificial intelligence, which then decides the world could get along just fine without us. As with the human body, it only takes one or two strategic body parts to go haywire and the whole syste collapses.
So I think it is imperative for individuals to treat one another with respect, kindness and compassion. Every day I try to find five people whose lives I can make better that day. Don't always succeed, but it's all I can do.
I used to think a nuclear terrorism incident would occur in my lifetime. So many decades have passed I might yet make the distance, though it’s a near-run thing.
I think the odds of Israel being nuked have just risen considerably, when you consider how fanatical Hamas is, and that they have Iran as a sponsor.
Personally, I keep a big bottle of Potassium Iodide tablets in the pantry. Have ever since the Ukraine war started.
When I reflect on the history of the 20th-21st century, I can't help but wonder if the West was just too soft hearted to survive. For instance, the only reason the Arab world are a threat to the world is that we let them confiscate the oil wells we'd developed.
Sure, nice of us, arguably the right thing to do, but it didn't make them civilized, it just made them barbarians with a lot of money to be barbaric with.
Similarly, if we'd just kept going after Germany was finished, and taken out the USSR, as Patton reportedly wanted, the Cold war would never have happened. The whole world might be more civilized.
Well, alternate history, you can imagine anything happening.
The oil wells located on their property? What kind of "libertarian" are you?
1. I don’t think the Iranians will attack Israel with the nuclear weapons they’ll soon possess (thanks a lot, Trump) either openly or by proxy. They’ll be first in the retaliation crosshairs.
2. It’s hard to hold all the major economic assets of another country without equable agreement.
3. Russia had massive armies that had just crushed the Wehrmacht (to be honest, a much better fighting force than ours). There is no chance your scenario makes sense short of nuking Russian cities. I’m not sure how far your fantasies go here.
It was more cold war -- otherwise we'd had no problem holding those wells.
Well said, Frank.
Even now groups with no religious affiliation and no political ax to grind are saying this
Progressive Anti-Abortion Uprising
paaunow.org
Gosh, Lotsa sympathy between you and Frank, eh?
Adult-onset superstition is a deplorable, debilitating thing.
(People are entitled to believe as they wish. But competent adults neither advance nor accept supernatural (superstition-based) arguments in reasoned debate among adults.
If you are 12 or younger, though, this point is not aimed at you.
"Indigenous People's Day" - when we pretend that the conquerors that were last before the Europeans are somehow magical.
Groups of people move in and take over from other groups of people. That's the way it works. The "indigenous" people were also invaders and conquerors, and in most cases, slave holders.
"First Peoples" is somewhat more honest than "indigenous". Somebody had to get there first--they didn't just grow out of the ground...
You mean "Second Peoples"? Because they certainly weren't the first wave; they just killed off all the people that lived in the Americas before them.
In fact, they might not even be the second wave. There's growing evidence that there was a wave before those folks, killed off by the second wave that was in turn killed off by the third wave that was in turn conquered by the fourth.
"The evil of enslavement was something people were entirely capable of understanding in Columbus's time."
This does not follow. Columbus was arrested and tried for breaking the law against enslavement of the native Americans. The Spanish crown was just find with slavery involving Africans...
Jmaie : "This does not follow"
I'd counter it does. After all, the whole point of racism is its ability to erect monumental distinctions on totally capricious grounds. The settlers of North American also toyed with seeing their indigenous natives as a special class of inferior. Logic never has anything to do with it.
That is not the whole point of racism, it originated in money and power considerations. YOU make it racist
"The historians John Thornton and Linda Heywood of Boston University estimate that 90 percent of those shipped to the New World were enslaved by Africans and then sold to European traders. The sad truth is that without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred."
Good Lord above, but aren't you dense! Please note that my point (distinctions without grounds) and your point (economic exploitation) are complementary, not exclusive.
IN fact
" but it is very important to remember that it was contrary to Spanish law and vigorously countermanded by Queen Isabel as soon as she found out about it. She declared firmly that no one had authorized her Admiral to treat "her subjects" in this manner, released the Indian captives who had been brought to Spain, and made clear her unalterable opposition to enslavement of the Indians. She then sent a former member of her household named Juan Aguado to investigate what Columbus was doing as governor of Hispaniola and report back to her."
22 Michele de Cuneo to Hieronymo Annari, October 15, 1495, in Samuel Eliot Morison, Journals and Other Documents on the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (New York, 1963), pp. 226- 227; letter of Isabel and Fernando, April 16, 1495, in Antonio Rumeu de Armas, La Politica Indigenista de Isabel la Cat�lica (Valladolid, 1969), p. 315; Morison, Admiral of the Ocean Sea, pp. 484-487, 49
And yet as Jmaie notes above, Spain was soon in the thick of the African Diaspora, being one of the major purchasers of slaves for its New World colonies. So (as Jmaie notes above) the objections to slavery in Spanish law and culture as arbitrary if not whimsical.
We finally found the one migrant Ilya Somin doesn’t revere.
Who turns out to be just another bigot our vestigial right-wing clingers adore.
What I increasingly see in people's reactions to you is : they know you are a hater by one simple fact. You only attack evil so you can attack certain opinions. You would approve slavery and all sorts of evil --- and do --- if done by people you like.
I am cheered that the fraud you are is seen more and more on here.
That's the best encapsulation of Artie I've read. Bravo.
I don't like bigots.
That bothers plenty of this blog's fans.
Now let's get out of the way so Prof. Volokh can launch another racial slur from UCLA's campus while he still can . . .
"The evil of enslavement was something people were entirely capable of understanding in Columbus's time. Thus, there was no excuse for his horrific actions."
Do you ever think about how you could be subject to this reasoning? That you might be doing or favoring something people today are entirely capable of understanding is evil, and are telling you is evil, so there's no excuse for your horrific actions?
That you disagree with them about that, of course, will scarcely matter to future generations if their position eventually prevails.
Brett Bellmore : "Do you ever think about how you could be subject to this reasoning? That you might be doing or favoring something people today are entirely capable of understanding is evil, and are telling you is evil, so there’s no excuse for your horrific actions?"
Well, we have remonstrated you over the whole Trump support thing.....
I can do it, point out future people disgusted with us. Business-unfriendly policies degrade technological progress, and people continue to die because stuff isn’t invented yet.
It never fails to baffle me why tax anything to do with medicine at all. Insurance-as-income, drug profits, doctor or nurse incomes.
“We need to pay for this medical thing. Tax some other aspect of medicine to do it!”
No. Tax something, anything. Anything but medicine.
If you tax anything but medicine, medicine will be taxed MORE, it just won’t be seeable. Remember the Defense Department’s : ” $7,600 for a coffee pot” All you do is shift costs, which then — being a shift — can go through the roof.
I sent a daughter to the DC public schools, where she got a shitty anti-education. The spending per student in DC , 2020
the District of Columbia ($22,856)
I see this all time, Evil starts at time X and the worse things prior can be ignored
"The historians John Thornton and Linda Heywood of Boston University estimate that 90 percent of those shipped to the New World were enslaved by Africans and then sold to European traders. The sad truth is that without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred."
One of the all-time great "whataboutism"! So glad you could create a pretense to squeeze it in here. Please note one distinction between slavery at the point of purchase and its development in the New World: There it became a institution integrated into countries' entire economies, on a massive scale, and depended on the concept of racial superiority/inferiority.
That slavery elsewhere in the world doesn't impact history as much has more to do with those factors rather than the Lefty Plot you imply, ya think?
You think slavery in Africa and the Middle East, which continues to this day, hasn't influenced history there? That their societies don't have it integrated into their economies?
Ilya's take on Columbus seems by turns pusillanlmous, ill informed and submissive to intellectual fashion.
There is a reason his nickname is 'Ilya the Lesser', you know.
even by moral standards understood in his own time
Seems a rather Christiancentric view. When Columbus "discovered" America, what was offensive about slavery to the then moral standards of the non Christian world, outside Europe ? Which was most of it.
Yeah, but the Christiancentric view you reference was Columbus' own. The point Professor Somin's makes is it fair to judge his actions by the standards of Columbus' own greater society.
Columbus was from Genoa. Genoa was one of the biggest slave markets in Europe in the middle ages. His employers were Spanish, but he was not. That his employers disapproved does not indicate that his own people did so. (And it's plain that his employers' disapproval was heavily influenced by their view that the natives were Spanish subjects. )
Moreover, the fact that some Christian scholars were beginning to disapprove of slavery does not mean that that disapproval was the moral standard of the day. It was not until the middle of the 18th century that the Pope promulgated a papal bull against the enslavement of indigenous people of the Americas and elsewhere. That would be 250 years after Columbus.
Next week - "Why future historians should not take NYT op-eds as a reflection of moral standards in the early 21st century."
Lee Moore : “Why future historians should not take NYT op-eds as a reflection of moral standards in the early 21st century.”
As should we all!
Columbus Day is not about Columbus. It was about giving Italian-Americans a day to celebrate their heritage. Much like the Irish, they had to deal with a lot of bigotry and they had enough political power to push for a holiday
This whole notion of "judging" historical figures seems confused to me. The man is dead, no one is proposing to judge him in the way that we judge the living. Instead, Americans are deciding whether he should be honoured with some kind of public holiday. And the only sensible way to decide that is to consider whether he deserves to be so honoured by the standards of today. What other way is there?
"Instead, Americans are deciding whether he should be honoured with some kind of public holiday. "
They did and he was.
And you're saying that this decision is somehow irrevocable? I would suggest that it's a decision that is made every year anew.
So we should have a plebiscite every year to decide which holidays to celebrate?
No. Referendums are a device of dictators and demagogues, and should be avoided whenever possible. But public holidays exist because of (presidential) proclamations that are or aren't made, or because of statutes that are or aren't repealed. So the responsibility for deciding which public holidays we have in any given year sits with our elected leaders.
Ilya, Don't just say "when he was acting as ordered he was good and when not, he was bad"
" In January 1495 he seized over a thousand Indians to make them slaves. There can be no excuse for this, but it is very important to remember that it was contrary to Spanish law and vigorously countermanded by Queen Isabel as soon as she found out about it. She declared firmly that no one had authorized her Admiral to treat "her subjects" in this manner, released the Indian captives who had been brought to Spain, and made clear her unalterable opposition to enslavement of the Indians. She then sent a former member of her household named Juan Aguado to investigate what Columbus was doing as governor of Hispaniola and report back to her."
Retroactive moral relativism is such an exhausting, pointless exercise. We act like the “indigenous” people didn’t enthusiastically practice slavery (or worse) themselves.
Cancel everyone.
We act like the “indigenous” people didn’t enthusiastically practice slavery (or worse) themselves.
Did they? And regardless, who is proposing to have a public holiday to honour an indigenous slave owner?
Is the assertion that "Western" slavery was different from all the other slaveries?? It was in one respect. Western slavery was ended. By the Brits and the Americans. Native slavery in America lasted well past the Civil War. Slavery in other places, still going string. Ilya the Russian, still pushing anti-American agit prop.
Slavery in Russia ended before slavery in the US...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_reform_of_1861
Yes ... and then, about half-a-century later, Lenin & Co. turned the freed people of Russia back into slaves.
Serfdom didn't actually end until 1892, but nice pretending that the date a law was passed was also the year it took complete effect.
Incidentally, even when 'freed', the serfs were still required to work as less-than-slaves for several years to "pay" for their freedom.
Support for my view that many people adhere to a zero-sum view of the world so that anything that “those people” (however defined) get means that “we” are losing out, regardless of whether that makes sense.
Here, it should not matter to any of the Columbus defenders that Columbus is being re-assessed, that Columbus Day should be renamed – without a loss of a holiday – etc. They lose nothing. But the mere fact that other people do seem to gain somerthing is enough for them to feel they’re losing out somehow, and so their antipathy.
(There are many other instances of this kind of insane reasoning – e.g., the extension of rights to groups previously denied them.)
“We should not honor people whose main claim to fame is fighting a bloody war in defense of the evil institution of slavery.”
How about people who fought because what they considered a foreign army was invading their home states?
"Some scholars estimate that around 90% of slaves transported to the Americas were enslaved by African tribes and then sold to European traders on the coast. The traders then transported them across the Atlantic."
More descendants of slave owners in minority population than in descendants of Columbus.
The rectitude of those who revise the past to destroy and denigrate the reputations and accomplishments of historic figures towers above any accomplishments of our day.
The most important thing for the righteous today is to be righteous in the eyes of others, those others who might, should the righteous fail to be righteous, call them names, destroy their reputations, and take all of their property. So! The efforts of the righteous, dedicated not to the creation of an accurate history, but of a self insulated from harm, are quite something.
Surely the Italian Americans for whom the Columbus Day Holiday was initiated will willingly sacrifice the day set aside for their history, as current rectitude matters much more than considering that Italian Americans were being lynched at the time.
Bartolomé de las Casas didn't like Columbus? Then I'm not sure I do, either.
But what to do about the statues and cities, etcetera? I wouldn't rename Columbus Ohio as Indigenouspeopleburg, Ohio.
The Indians were savages when Europeans came to the New World. There was no way their "society" could ever coexist with the West. They had to be removed.
Simple solution: just move up your Thanksgiving Day so it coincides with the Canadian Thanksgiving, which is on the second Monday of October. And you still get to add on all the pseudo-historical trappings.
Presentism, at its worst, encourages a kind of moral complacency and self-congratulation. Interpreting the past in terms of present concerns usually leads us to find ourselves morally superior; the Greeks had slavery, even David Hume was a racist, and European women endorsed imperial ventures. Our forbears constantly fail to measure up to our present-day standards. This is not to say that any of these findings are irrelevant or that we should endorse an entirely relativist point of view. It is to say that we must question the stance of temporal superiority that is implicit in the Western (and now probably worldwide) historical discipline. - Lynn Hunt
https://www.historians.org/research-and-publications/perspectives-on-history/may-2002/against-presentism
except here that is clearly YOUR position, hypocrite
" In January 1495 he seized over a thousand Indians to make them slaves. There can be no excuse for this, but it is very important to remember that it was contrary to Spanish law and vigorously countermanded by Queen Isabel as soon as she found out about it. She declared firmly that no one had authorized her Admiral to treat "her subjects" in this manner, released the Indian captives who had been brought to Spain, and made clear her unalterable opposition to enslavement of the Indians. She then sent a former member of her household named Juan Aguado to investigate what Columbus was doing as governor of Hispaniola and report back to her."