The Volokh Conspiracy
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Records of Library Removal Requests, Like Other Library User Records, Are Exempt from State Public Records Law
The case stemmed from user challenges asking that a public library remove Gender Queer: A Memoir, or at least keep children from getting it.
So the Colorado Court of Appeals held yesterday in Brookhart v. Reaman, in an opinion by Judge Lino Lipinsky de Orlov, joined by Judge Timothy Schutz; note that the opinion applies Colorado state law, and the rules may differ from state to state.
Four individuals (the requesters) asked the Gunnison County Library District (the library district) to remove a book titled Gender Queer: A Memoir (the book) from the shelves of the Gunnison County Public Library (the library) or, alternatively, to prevent children from accessing it. The requesters used the library district's own "Request for Reconsideration of Materials" form (the reconsideration form) to submit their requests. The library makes the reconsideration form available to the public through its website. Any person may complete and submit a reconsideration form to the library district to ask that an item be removed from the library's collection or that access to the item be restricted.
Respondent, Mark Reaman, in his capacity as the editor of the Crested Butte News, submitted a request under the Colorado Open Records Act (CORA), to the library district to obtain unredacted copies of the requesters' reconsideration forms. The library district responded by filing this case in district court … to obtain guidance on how it should respond to Reaman's CORA request [as the statute allows]….
The narrow, but important, issue before us is whether the library district is required to keep the requesters' identifying information confidential under section 24-90-119(1), which prohibits the disclosure of "any record or other information that identifies a person as having requested or obtained specific materials or service or as otherwise having used the library." Section 24-72-204(3)(a)(VII) links section 24-90-119(1) to CORA, providing that a records custodian shall deny disclosure of "[l]ibrary records disclosing the identify of a user as prohibited by section 24-90-119." This case involves the apparent conflict between two principles embodied in the Colorado Revised Statutes: the mandate that "all public records … be open for inspection by any person at reasonable times," except as "specifically provided by law," § 24-72-201, and library users' right of privacy protected through section 24-90-119(1).
Section 24-90-119(1) does not prohibit the disclosure of any portion of a library record other than specific information that "identifies a person as having requested or obtained specific materials or service or as otherwise having used the library." Thus, our review is limited to whether the district court erred by ordering Brookhart to redact the requesters' personal identifying information before producing the reconsideration forms to Reaman….
The court concluded that the removal of books is a "service" of the library, so people who requested the removals are protected by § 24-90-119(1):
First, in section 24-90-119(1), the General Assembly employed the disjunctive "or" in listing the three categories of persons whose identifying information is protected from disclosure: persons who (1) "requested or obtained specific materials"; (2) "requested or obtained [a] specific … service"; or (3) "otherwise … used the library." We hold that the identifying information in the requesters' reconsideration forms may not be disclosed under the second category of section 24-90-119(1): persons who "requested or obtained [a] specific … service."
Second, a "service" is (1) "[t]he official work or duty that one is required to perform" or (2) labor performed "in the interest or under the direction of others; specif[ically], the performance of some useful act or series of acts for the benefit of another." Black's Law Dictionary (11th ed. 2019). The second definition "denotes an intangible commodity in the form of human effort, such as labor, skill, or advice." We conclude that both dictionary definitions of "service" encompass the library district's promulgation and the requesters' submission of the reconsideration forms.
The first definition of "service" is satisfied because the library district's creation, dissemination, and use of its reconsideration form established a procedure whereby any person could request that certain books or other items be removed from the library's collection or made unavailable to underage library patrons. As the library district's "Challenged Materials" policy states, the "library director" will "review and consider all 'Requests to Reconsider Materials' and provide a written response and decision on the subject material(s) to the patron that submitted the request." (We do not consider whether the outcome of this case would have been different if the library district had not developed and promulgated the reconsideration form or if the requesters had not employed the library's own form to submit their requests.)
The requesters' identifying information is also protected under the second dictionary definition of "service." Although the parties challenge the societal benefit of removing books from a public library's collections, the dictionary definition of "service" is value neutral. Our application of the governing statutes must be value neutral, as well.
The library district's review and consideration of the reconsideration forms required "human effort" to perform a "useful act or series of acts for the benefit" of the requesters, and arguably for the benefit of any resident of the library district who may agree with the views of the requesters. The meaning of "useful act," like the definition of "service," does not depend on whether the library district agrees with the requesters that removing, or limiting access to, the book is "useful."
Third, the library district's own actions compel affirmance of the order. It would defy logic to conclude that the library district engaged in a "useless act" when it created and promulgated the reconsideration form, or that the library district believed submission of its own form would result in harm to the library or violate the rights of its patrons.
The die was cast when the library district created and posted a form to allow any person to seek the removal or restriction of any item in the library's catalogue. The parties' disagreement with the requesters' opinions regarding who should be permitted to access the book does not change the nature of the "service" the library district provides to members of the public who use the library district's own reconsideration form to question an item in the library's collection. Thus, the requesters' completion and submission of the library's reconsideration forms satisfy the plain meaning of requesting or obtaining a library "service" for purposes of section 24-90-119(1).
Fourth, section 24-90-119(1) distinguishes between "request[ing] or obtain[ing] specific materials" and "request[ing] or obtain[ing] [a] specific … service." As noted in our discussion above, by using "or" in section 24-90-119(1), the General Assembly intended that, for purposes of the statute, "request[ing] or obtain[ing] specific materials" and "request[ing] or obtain[ing] [a] specific … service" must be considered independently. We therefore reject the parties' arguments that section 24-90-119(1) only protects the identifying information of a person who "requested or obtained specific materials" — in other words, a person who asks for, reads, listens to, views, or checks out items from the library's collection….
[W]e disagree with Brookhart's suggestion that the unredacted reconsideration forms are subject to disclosure under CORA in furtherance of the principle that the people should be protected from "secret government." General principles of government transparency, no matter how noble, cannot rewrite the specific language the General Assembly chose to include in the statutes we must interpret in this appeal. Similarly, while we "construe any exceptions to CORA's disclosure requirements narrowly," we may not redraft statutory language to do so. Moreover, there is no dispute that the content of the reconsideration forms, without the requesters' personal identifying information, is a public record and, therefore, should be made available to the public. We perceive no persuasive argument that the library's objective assessment of the requests or the public good would be enhanced by revealing the identity of the requesters….
The majority also stressed that "We are not asked to decide, and do not rule on, the merits of the requesters' objections to the inclusion of the book in the library's collection; the artistic or social merit of the book; or whether readers, regardless of age, have a First Amendment right to access the book through a public library."
Judge Daniel Taubman dissented on procedural grounds, and would not have reached the statutory interpretation question.
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Banning books is a “service”? Fascinating.
Glad to see people can not only work to prohibit my children from access to reading materials regardless of the content or my wishes but that they can also bravely and society-savingly do it anonymously.
Another small price to pay for freedom. Libertarian paradise is a utopia wrapped in heaven and held together with gold-flecked nirvana.
You are, of course, free to buy your kids Gender Queer if you so desire.
Libraries also do not stock adult magazines but they, also, are available for you to purchase and give to your kids if you so desire.
You can maintain your fetishes and others do not have to participate in it.
First, "service" is a generic term for any contact with the public. Like any profession, librarians have their own lingo.
Second, if the state, in its infinite wisdom, decides to make library records confidential, and writes the statute so as to cover requests for removal, then blame the state. Remember though that the reason why these records are confidential is that the left didn't like the public (or FBI) being able to learn what books they had borrowed. That apparently was an issue in the 1970s.
When you think you've found a set of magic words that means you can ban any book you want.
The question isn’t so much your kids accessing it, clearly with your permission, but others’ kids, without their parents permission. Were this a DVD of Blue Velvet, no one would bat an eye at the request or result, though I would prefer restriction to adults to removal.
In any case, should one see who requested it, so you can go hassle them? That’s the actual issue here. Suppose someone requested removal of the Bible so kids couldn’t see it? And someone else wanted to see who requested it.
“Names don’t matter. The decision to analyze it is dispassionate and separated from the requester. You don’t need to know, you’re just gonna hassle them.”
And round and round we go.
And for the record, I think kids should have access to it.
Which it? Gender Queer, Blue Velvet DVD, or the Bible?
People pick and choose their bad guys and good guys, and flip on damned important principles accordingly.
Principles that are casually discarded in the face of changing winds were never principles to begin with.
What you call, "hassle them," other folks understand as debate about public policy. To keep private library withdrawals and reading records makes perfect sense. There are no policy issues implicated. To put beyond the scope of public debate, including personal responsibility for the authors of public policies governing libraries, is abuse of democratic governance. The solution, of course, is to get rid of the stupid policy which invites anyone and everyone to intervene in library collection management.
So what you're saying is that the government should manage the government, not the people.
That seems kind of perverse. Shouldn't the local community have a voice in the contents of their own government services?
You are going down a slippery slope when you say the government should function without community oversight.
"Community oversight," does not equal empowering random individuals to exercise more unguided policy power than real community oversight gives to professionals charged with systematizing policies. Unless there is something really screwed up in a library system's collection management policy, no librarian enjoys that kind of arbitrary decision making authority. The local community gets its voice politically and jointly, not like each person is king of the library.
Individuals should not claim out of hand to speak for the community, especially if they're a minority of one.
I agree!! The public should have no input in what actions public entities take.
Sincerely,
Stalin
Stalin loved banning books, too.
'Suppose someone requested removal of the Bible so kids couldn’t see it?'
The librarian could just say 'no.' And everyone could get on with their lives.
Maybe you should spend more time at the library learning ro read and comprehend.
"The majority also stressed that "We are not asked to decide, and do not rule on, the merits of the requesters' objections to the inclusion of the book in the library's collection; the artistic or social merit of the book; or whether readers, regardless of age, have a First Amendment right to access the book through a public library."
OtisAH is using a strawman argument rather than addressing the actual point of the article? Fascinating.
No, actually, it isn't fascinating - it's business as usual. Letting people petition the library is the "service". That petition could be to add a new book to the collection or any of a number of other decisions, yes, including a request to remove something from the inventory. That's not "banning books".
Yes it is. In order to determine if someone wants to ban a book all you have to do is examone their reasons for book removal. If it's because it's falling apart, or because it hasn't been borrowed in years, then it's normal. If it's because they don't like gay, trans, black people or Jews, and those are somehow related to the book, then they want to ban the book.
You just want to decide for all other parents.
One person decides for all users that a book has to be banned because they hate gay people or whatever?
Pretty sure that a libertarian paradise wouldn't have public libraries in the first place.
Why not? I don't think all libertarians are certifiably insane. The main libertarian objection is to "coercion." While taxation might be considered coercion, I think that a reasonable libertarian would understand that taxation is necessary for society to function efficiently.
I don't see anything particular coercive about libraries. Or public parks. I think libertarians would be more effective if they focused on the problem of government coercion rather than just generally being clowns by attacking public libraries or public parks or whatever.
I am pretty sure no libertarian asked you for your opinion about what they should care about. And you might notice that the topic here was not the Libertarian Party platform, but a hypothetical "libertarian paradise."
Well, I don't think a lack of public libraries is actually a libertarian paradise. Libertarians use public libraries and public parks too. If the levels are taxation are reasonable and you like these services, it is great.
I don't like toll roads. Why? Because they are inconvenient. Is it really a paradise to have to wait in line to pay a toll? Or have to spend time to deal with yet another billing system? In a way, all this waiting around is coercive too; if you need to use the road, you have to see your time wasted to some degree. At some point, we just don't have a choice about things. So, I think what is least coercive is actually what is most efficient. The less time and money we have to spend to get what we want, the more choices we have. And isn't maximizing choice the real point here? Coercion is a word for fewer choices and liberty is a word for more choices. Efficiency increases choices, so is pro liberty. If in practice, we end up wasting our time to create a "libertarian utopia" it isn't really a utopia. Even for libertarians.
I do think if we limit unnecessary coercion, on the other hand, that would be more of a paradise. For example, should people REALLY be going to jail for using or selling drugs? The answer is, probably sometimes. Fentanyl probably should be illegal to sell. Because it is just too crazy. But what about cocaine? I am going to shrug my shoulders on that one. Why should I care if someone is getting high off cocaine or not?
So, I kind of have some sympathy for libertarian thinking. But when it comes to actually creating LESS CHOICE in practice and LESS FREEDOM in practice, well, that is just performative libertarianism, in my view.
A crusade against public libraries doesn't make sense. Society doesn't invest in public libraries as much as they used to. Because they are less useful. That ought to be enough. We don't need to be fanatically anti-library, pretending like the world will REALLY be so much better if people don't have access to free books.
Not for a libertarian, no. Choice and liberty may overlap, but they are not the same thing. (Or, to put it another way: whose choice?)
A shameful oversight on my part.
Oh, it would.
They'd just be privately funded by people who like the idea of "public libraries".
(Or if they're Hayekians like me, they ... aren't minarchists and thus think "moderately sized government with services" is fine?)
"They’d just be privately funded by people who like the idea of “public libraries”."
Those wouldn't be public libraries in the sense that "public" is being used here.
Public in public library means government run, not open to the public.
A privately run library open to the general public is still a private library.
Pretty sure that a libertarian paradise wouldn’t have public libraries in the first place.
It's funny how "pretty sure" people are about their ignorance.
Nieporent, that aligns with my experience, albeit paradoxically. The single most influential event that set me on the road toward a benign view of government was the arrival of a bookmobile on my block. It showed up less than a year after I belatedly discovered that reading was something I could master, and enjoy doing. That bookmobile, circa 1954, explains why you and I are so often at odds, despite wide areas of agreement.
Another reason why libertarianism is basically about restoring aristocracy.
I completely disagree with people trying to ban books like this, and think that there is a special hell designed for these types of officious busybodies who have nothing better to do than to try and make life worse for other people.
That said, as a pure matter of law, I have to agree with the Court. This is just an analysis of the public records law, and while I might not agree with the result as a matter of policy, it is clear to me that this is (even if unintended) within the ambit of the carveout in the statute.
The remedy is to get the Colorado legislature to change the statute, if that is what is desired.
"I completely disagree with people trying to ban books like this"
...so any book a library does not carry is banned?
Do you know what banned means?
All of these books --- easily purchasable. Not remotely difficult to do so.
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1549304003/reasonmagazinea-20/
Took literally 5 seconds to find.
I truly appreciate the fact that you took the time out of your busy schedule to ignore most of what I wrote in order to make a banal comment that people could purchase the books elsewhere. Thank you! You are truly brilliant, and clearly the class of intelligence that people look for in the comments of a legal blog.
Yes, as a policy matter, I do not agree with officious busybodies (and their enablers, such as you) trying to ban books from the local public library. It seems like it's a hobby for some people to inject themselves into the few public resources we have today to make them as unhelpful and unusable as possible; with the constant refrain that it doesn't matter that they are inflicting their policy choices on the rest of us, because hey, we can just buy stuff.
You know, just like you can shut down public pools because we can all buy our own.
So no, I don't agree with you. I think you are a terrible person. But that's okay! Luckily for you, I am not a partisan moron; which must shock you given what you see when you look in the mirror. As you might note, I actually care about the law and analyzed the legal issue.
But hey, don't that let stop you!
Loki13:
Pompous smartass comments:
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
"Pompous smartass "
That's our Loki!
Then he gets all butt hurt if you are slightly smartass in return and mutes you.
"Yes, as a policy matter, I do not agree with officious busybodies (and their enablers, such as you) trying to ban books from the local public library."
So, if I say "We should not have old issues of Hustler in the library available to kids", I'm a "busybody"? Interesting.
Why is it so necessary to give access to materials far beyond what they are remotely ready to deal with?
"It seems like it’s a hobby for some people to inject themselves into the few public resources we have today to make them as unhelpful and unusable as possible"
See: People demanding that books like Gender Queer not be age-restricted in a library. Oh wait, they AREN'T trying to inject themselves into a public resource.
Why are they not?
Because you agree with them.
Note: The "busybodies" OFFERED a compromise.
"with the constant refrain that it doesn’t matter that they are inflicting their policy choices on the rest of us, because hey, we can just buy stuff."
Feel free to read Gender Queer to any parent and ask if it should be available to children. School boards sure do not appreciate it being read at their hearings.
Libraries have to curate content. Sorry if you dislike some of their choices. You can get over it. Feel free to buy Gender Queer and give it to every 7 year old you know. I bet that will work out well for you.
'Feel free to read Gender Queer to any parent and ask if it should be available to children. '
Feel free to read any book about sexuality and related issues written for young people and say, 'ban this, young people must be kept ignorant!'
"So no, I don’t agree with you. I think you are a terrible person."
Drat. I was so hoping loki13 would like me. Damn, another life goal gone.
"But that’s okay! Luckily for you, I am not a partisan moron"
How so? You're clearly partisan and obviously a moron.
"which must shock you given what you see when you look in the mirror."
I'm not claiming to be non-partisan.
I also know what "ban" means, so I'm at least a little ahead of you.
"As you might note, I actually care about the law and analyzed the legal issue."
And I dealt with the issue that led to the legal issue.
Sorry if you're not quick enough to grasp it. I'll try and use more monosyllabic words with you in the future.
Loki has already muted you. He can't stand any push back at all.
Explains why the intellect of this post has increased...
loki13:
I think a good solution here, for both public libraries and school libraries, is to gate material that might be inappropriate for some readers to a different section of the library for minors. But there should be a process whereby parents can consent for those minors to access some or all of the books that are gated.
In this way, everyone can mostly get what they want. The material is made available for those who want it, but parents have more control over what their particular kids are exposed to.
First, I would say that there would necessarily be a large dispute between various parents as to what constitutes material that should be gated.
Second, as someone who has used the public library with children, it has been my experience that if you care about what your YOUNG child is doing at the public library, you always have the ability to ... spend that time with them.
To offload your responsibility as a parent seems weird; to demand that everyone else has to follow your beliefs because you are too lazy to interact with your child seems downright perverse.
loki:
I spent quite a bit of time in the library alone as a kid. I used to ride my bike there. I also used to play outside unsupervised.
I think that is also fine. Just personally. This helicopter type parenting strategies certainly have their advantages, I suppose. But not everyone thinks that is optimal.
I am all for a diversity of opinion on that topic about what level of adult supervision kids should have.
Look, if a parent didn’t want to look over their kids shoulder all the time, and it made them FEEL better that their kid can’t access hardcore pornography at the library, that is fine. It sort of doesn’t matter, because unless you are watching your kid like a hawk, they probably are going to see that stuff on their own or whatever.
I sort of get what you are saying, but it is sort of not quite so black and white. A person might want to make it slightly more difficult for their kids to be exposed to what they believe to be age inappropriate material without being paranoid about it or becoming a full blown helicopter parent to prevent it.
Look, if you were biking to the public library as a kid, you were already at the age when you were allowed to go through the adult stacks. It's not like they are "specially gated." So I truly can't understand this point.
More broadly, I don't agree with helicopter parenting, at all. This is more basic- if your kid is at such a young age that you can't trust them at all, then you should be with them. If they are past that point, then they are going to get into things with or without you.
TBH, given everything on the internet today, I would much rather learn that kids were going to the library. Oh, the horror. They might be exposed to ... BOOKS!
(Yes, I am joking. Kind of.)
Except it's not a joke. The reason there are books out there like Gender Queer is because nobody sane wants kids trying to learn about this stuff on the internet. Kids have access to porn, it's just a grim fact of modern life, and they also have access to sites that are toxic and hateful about issues related to sexuality and relationships, and education about sex, sexuality and relationships has to reflect that and deal with it.
If you're gating material that homophobes, racists and anti-semites find objectionable, you're just doing their job for them.
I truly appreciate the fact that you took the time out of your busy schedule to ignore most of what I wrote
What he responded to was something you thought important enough to lead your comment with a virtue signal about, and that constituted nearly half of your post.
Man you people have so many little macros for avoiding engaging with stuff you don't want to hear!
The people trying to make worse for other people are those who are trying to normalize homosexuality, transgender deviance, and other filth.
You're an idiot. The book was not banned, it was removed from the collection. There is no policy--formal or otherwise--to prevent that title from being reintroduced into the collection. It's not a ban.
Way to fuck up your whole thesis due to poor reading comprehension.
Yes, I am the person with poor reading comprehension. Given I obviously lack the skills to understand your pithy arguments and clever use of expletives, I won't endeavor to try reading comments in the future.
I do appreciate when people communicate to me so clearly and unequivocally their desire to not engage in future discussion. It saves time.
I would construe "otherwise having used the library" in the context of the prior words and exclude requests to remove material from its scope. The law is meant to protect me when I take the neighbor kids into the library to groom them.
This is statutory interpretation, not right or wrong.
Given that we had a prior Satanic Panic ... and that we remember that it did actual damage to real people ... and that it was largely based on the same exact BS things that we are seeing now ...
It is really disturbing to me that we see so many casually employ this language like it's been normalized. I can somewhat forgive the "true believers," as they are crazy, and hope that they can at some point recover their senses. Less so for those who just toss around the terms because they think it's edgy, or gives them some kind of partisan cred.
Is there a reason it is so vital for kids to be given access to books like Gender Queer? Is there a reason why THAT is so vital for their lives?
Is not giving them Hustlers to look at ALSO similar to the 1980's Satanic panic?
I missed this one.
Given that you are incapable of substantive comments, I don’t see that further engagement with you would be productive. Enjoy your small and frightened life, and try not to cause too much damage and hurt too many people. I hope that some day, you come to your senses. Good luck.
OH noes! Another MUTE USER!!
“I completely disagree with people trying to ban books like this, and think that there is a special hell designed for these types of officious busybodies who have nothing better to do than to try and make life worse for other people.”
loki13 wrote that about himself.
"Given that you are incapable of substantive comments, I don’t see that further engagement with you would be productive. Enjoy your small and frightened life, and try not to cause too much damage and hurt too many people. I hope that some day, you come to your senses. Good luck."
I've never felt this level of pain before. It is horrifying. Terrible.
...oh wait, I had a pebble in my shoe.
Well, that's gone.
Did I miss anything?
*looks up*
Nothing of note, clearly.
Can someone help me understand the legal import of this ruling? I understand it from a privacy point of view, and in fact I rather support it as a practical matter, but what are the implications viz the law? Is there some more important doctrine that this ruling is reinforcing other than the obvious?
Now as to the merits: I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with a local newspaper being able to get a list of the names of people who have checked out a specific book. That's not public information. It's not much of a stretch to extend that to getting a list of names of people who have requested a specific service.
No. It's just a straightforward application of the statute.
States have their own public records laws (similar to the federal FOIA law) so that people can access public records. This is just a Colorado-specific application of the law.
Generally, all public records can be requested, subject to exceptions. Someone requested a public record. There is a carve-out for certain personally-identifiable information related to library records. That's it.
Thanks
‘member when libraries tried to stop government from tracking web sites patrons went to?
“Rarrr!” went one side, “Rarrrr!” went the other back, as they threw their Vitally Important Principles at each other, not knowing what the future would hold, and they would come to to abandon them and adopt the other guy’s.
You know --- if you want to end this controversy --- do away with public libraries entirely. Make them private only.
Therefore, no pesky taxpayers would have any right to complain about any of the titles in the library. It'd be LIBERTOPIA!!!
I'm curious as to how many commenters actually use a public library?
I do not. I can see plenty of homeless in other places if I so wished to do so. I've used my alma mater's libraries in the past for research, but do not find much use in public ones now.
I take my daughter every Saturday. She likes to look at the DVD titles.
I am reading an interesting Napoleon bio as I wait.
My impression is that Virginia's public libraries are treasured institutions in their communities. For retirees such as myself, they're an especially good resource.
Well, yes, that's where its going. Why ban one book at a time when you can ban entire libraries?
Seems right under a straightforward application of the statutory language, but I'd prefer the statute to be written not to exclude this information from the public. The public deserves to know who is petitioning government to take certain actions, one of the more important things transparency laws can be used for.
Why? I fail to see any benefit in publicizing it any more than publicizing the names of the people who checked it out.
The FOIA request was for harassment purposes.
There is no need to know their names. The request stands or falls on its merits.
Overall, I agree with the outcome of this case. I think it is good that people are able to use the library to check out books without being personally identified. And, if they are going to move for reconsideration of a book, I don’t see why their identity should be relevant.
This case is also causing me to think about Eugene Volokh’s common crusade to prevent people from commonly using the legal system pseudo-anonymously.
I think that MOST people should be able to use the court system without having their identities revealed. That it should be the default.
The way I see it, as far as having identities revealed, I believe it makes sense for corporations or other prominent entities to always have their identities revealed. Proceeding in the corporate form is already an effective means of identity protection, because most people think about the fiction of the corporation rather than the reality of the people behind it. I also think that if people are accused of serious wrong-doing, such as sexual battery or something of that nature, the same rules that apply to criminal accusations should apply to civil accusations. That is, there might be a process of expungement that makes such records less convenient to obtain, but you can get them if you really need to. I do not see any reason for ordinary plaintiffs in employment discrimination lawsuits or who claim to be victims to have their identities revealed.
Public access to courts is a very important thing. We should not discourage its use by requiring people to undergo embarrassment in order to make use of it.
Overall, I think Eugene Volokh’s actions with respect to pseudonymity have been very useful. I might come down a little differently than he would on which records should or should not be shielded, but his work has gotten me to think about this issue.
Yeah, I think people should generally be able to use government services, including the court system, without being shamed. On the other hand, when people are accused of wrong-doing, we probably want that sort of information to be accessible, as this potentially limits the ability of that person to do harm again in the future. The issue of a “fresh start” can be addressed by an “expungement” process, just as it is when it comes to criminal allegations.
Just as having your library records revealed could inhibit checking out controversial materials, having court records could discourage use of the court system to resolve disputes.
Oh, and when it comes to arbitration, it should be the same. People who resolve disputes through arbitration should have the same rules apply to arbitration records as if they went to court. That is, arbiters should have to keep the same records that courts would keep and should have the same rules regarding revealing the identity of the parties.
I have a problem with a two-class justice system, where some people can get their disputes resolved privately, but if you must use the public court system, there is a different level of privacy. The same rules should apply to ANY dispute resolution mechanism that relies on PUBLIC enforcement.
Arbitration awards are subject to enforcement by public authorities since they can result in the issuance of public judgments. For that reason, the public should have the same access to underlying arbitration records as they would have to court records.
A very thoughtful comment. For my part, I don't see any need to presume any motivations on anyone's part, such as "people should be able to use services without shaming". The line between public and private is drawn simply by necessity and by mutual consent.
By consent, we agree that a title search will reveal the names of the owners of a piece of titled property, for example. The owner's names are information that everyone would need, so we have all agreed to making them public. It's not really being governed by a privacy policy so much as just being a pragmatic fact of life.
In the case of library requests, there's no need for everyone to know the names of patrons. There's really nothing more to it than that.
YMMV.
Yeah, I think you are right. A one size fits all approach isn't optimal.
"In an interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour, former Democratic Presidential nominee Hillary Clinton discusses why she believes supporters for former President Donald Trump are intimidating "sane" House GOP members and calls for a "formal deprogramming" for MAGA "cult extremists."
02:24 - Source: CNN
Reeducation camps for political opponents! Not an evil person
Here: https://www.foxnews.com/media/hillary-clinton-floats-formal-deprogramming-trump-supporters-suggests-gop-base-bigots
But who cares what she says!
Is she running for political office? No.
Does she run a major social media platform like Musk? No.
Does she have any influence over the Democrat Pary? No.
But who cares what she says!
Major news media outlets, at a minimum. She also is still getting paid an average of about $200K per speaking engagement. Apparently somebody is listening to her.
I don’t know about “formal deprogramming.” Sounds bad.
That being said, I do think some people need to get a grip. Specifically— every single one of those people who showed up at a Trump rally and laughed at the idea of an 80+ year-old being assaulted with a hammer in his own home like it was some kind of comedy bit.
Clutch those pearls.
There are the various waves of absurdity washing over our society. Why is this happening? By what means are their promoters / perpetrators succeeding? By normal people being cowed into silence. No one has the nerve to speak up/out against them!
This case is a fine illustration of how the "cowing" works.
You are a normal person. You find out that your local public library has acquired a book aimed at kids, encouraging them to question their "assigned" gender. You contact the library and ask them to either remove the book or, at least, "prevent children from accessing it."
A "liberal" journalist somehow finds out about your request. He then tries to obtain your name from the library.
Why do you think Mr. Reaman did so? For what purpose? The only purpose I can think of is to publish the concerned normal persons' names in his newspaper. Why? So that they can be "cancelled" -- denounced as "bigots," maybe fired from their jobs, maybe have Antifa or some such outfit show up at their homes, etc. This will serve as a warning to any other (remaining) normal people out there to keep quiet!
"No one has the nerve to speak up/out against them!"
So (according to your line of thinking), the "liberal" journalist wants to speak up/out against the requestor.
So . . .it's OK for YOUR side to 'speakup/out' against issues they don't like but not the "liberal" side.
GTFO
Why can't reactionries who want to keep kids ignorant and stoke satanic panic just be allowed to get on with banning books without being book banners? So oppressive!
My popup ad had a “skip ad” thing on it. My ad had an ad?
I declined to skip the ad. I'm not going down that rat hole.
So far, 42 comments in this thread featuring damikesc trying to turn his personal anxieties about sexuality into public policy. The sad thing about it is his all-too-evident intention. He demands that public policy officially stigmatize homosexuality. And he can't let it go.
Lathrop, you're so full of bullshit you could single-handedly fertilize ever cornfield in Iowa.
Before I muted him, I just imagined that all of his comments were the same endless refrain ...
The guy from the Dead Milkmen song (Stuart) yelling...
Now Stuart, if you look at the soil around any large US city with a big underground homosexual population, Des Moines Iowa, for example. Look at the soil around Des Moines, Stuart, you can't build on it, you can't grow anything in it, the government says it's due to poor farming, but I know what's really going on, Stuart! I know it's the queers! They're in it with the aliens! They're building landing strips for gay Martians, I swear to God!
And you could fertilize every Russian wheat field.
Coming soon a comment by the Queen who could fertilize half the planet.
Add in her flying monkey SarcastrO and Nige and include all of North America.
Look everybody they've found a new way to avoid having to directly defend the indefensible!
Stephen, I know you have few qualms being incorrect. Your pride in not knowing your ass from a hole in the ground is a bit impressive, honestly.
It should probably take more than a handful of requests to ban a book from a library, and librarians should be able to distinguish genuine concerns from reactionary hatemongers, which should be easy because I don’t think it’s usual for anyone but reactionary hatemongers to want to ban books, though no doubt their are exceptions, and even those could well be misguided.
Well, I think we all know why the same inane point keeps coming up.
Because it sounds a lot better than, "No, we're not trying to ban books from the public library. We're just trying to make sure that public libraries only carry books that I want them to carry. People should only read books that I approve of. All other books should be banned ... um ... available for purchase at places that I can't control. YET."
"These are books that were already on the shelves and were asked to be removed for content, not considerations of shelf space, so let’s nip this tired talking point in the bud (and maybe ask why such a tired talking point keeps coming up in these conversations)."
They asked to be removed OR kept from young children.
Note: a compromise.
They clearly are not the first nor only to make these requests (they had a form to do so specifically, so logically, this was not the first occurrence).
If you want to know why progressives are viewed as groomers and pedos --- being so bent out of shape over a request to keep young kids from inappropriate materials for their age is a pretty big sign.
Clearly, their parents were not required to approve it, given that the request was to remove it OR "prevent children from accessing it."
Would not need to make that latter request if it could only be accessed with direct parental approval.
Again, feel free to buy it and give it to every 7 year old you know. Not sure why this is the hill you wish to die on, but you make your own choices there.
Award winning book? What awards and from whom?
I don't see the Turner Diaries in many libraries. Cannot blame them for not carrying it as the ideas inside are loathsome.
So, clearly, yes they will happily curate based on content.
Never made that argument.
Libraries have to curate books. The public, given that they pay for it, have input. They asked to have it either removed entirely or, alternatively, REMOVED FROM WHERE CHILDREN CAN ACCESS IT.
They could always follow the progressive tactic when something upsets them and just burn down the building.
And they were willing to go along with having it where the children themselves could not access it. Mentioned in the judgment specifically.
If a parent wants to give it to them, well, bad parents exist.
You can bet whatever you wish. I would, though, hate to deprive you of doughnuts.
But continue trying to make arguments on assumptions with no basis in reality. Sounds like a great plan.
They DID ask for the latter. They provided two options: Remove it entirely OR prevent children from accessing it.
It is in the judgment posted here.
Again, if you wish to argue that ANY book a library does not carry is, thus, BANNED --- that seems like a "you" problem.
Page 21. It was bad as the rest, mind you.
You?
I read it to make myself more capable of attacking it.
And plenty of shit parents exist in the world. Best I can is keep my kids from their influence.
"Let me ask you, is your zeal to control other people’s kids coming from a place of impotence in controlling your own?"
I have zero desire to control anybody else's kid. As long as a parent does not abuse them, then it is none of my concern.
I just do not want anything I have to support with any financial support to have offensive material available to children.
"Bullshit. If you’d read it it wouldn’t have taken you half an hour to offer up such a transparently pathetic response "
Took 10 minutes (fuck, can you even READ timestamps of responses?) and it's because you are not an obsession here.
"who when asked what their favorite part of a book is cites a page number, lol"
Feel free to debunk it anytime you wish.
Since you're apparently stalking me, what color shirt am I wearing?
I mean, since you have such close tabs on me and all.
"I don’t have to keep close tabs to know your answer was laughable.
Q. What was your favorite part of Braveheart!
A. The 37:52 mark!"
"What's your favorite part?"
"This"
"That CANNOT be your favorite (or even least hated) part"
Progressive logic, folks.
Why should they limit their request?
They'd PREFER it gone.
But they are willing to work with those who think kids need to see inappropriate materials.
If you attack somebody for being willing to provide moderate options, then they will just stop providing moderate options.
Tell your progressive friends of this realization.
Explains the moves to control cooking appliances, vehicles, etc.
Because they do not want to force people to do stuff.
Without top-down control, progressivism cannot work.
It does not really work with it, but you can force people to shut up and do what you want with top-down control.
And, again, if the library decides to not carry the book any longer --- the book is not "banned" in any way, shape, or form.
"If a book already carried is removed because of its content it is being censored. I mean, aren’t you guys the ones hollering “censorship” when a *private* entity *removes speech because of its content?*”"
Libraries are not private entities. And it is not being censored. It is readily available. Again, took me five seconds to find it for purchase.
Awards Edit
In 2020, Gender Queer was one of ten books to receive an Alex Award from the American Library Association, for "books written for adults that have special appeal to young adults ages 12 through 18."[1] In the same year, the book was also a finalist for the Stonewall Book Award for non-fiction.[6] These awards led to the book becoming more widely available in school libraries.[6]
Wow! Impressive!
"books written for adults that have special appeal to young adults ages 12 through 18." Books written FOR ADULTS.
The Stonewall Book Award is a set of three literary awards that annually recognize "exceptional merit relating to the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender experience" in English-language books published in the U.S.
"BOOKS WRITTEN FOR ADULTS"
“books written for adults"
Sex books written for adults should not be available to kids.
Blow hard blows hard.
Do you come up with this shit on your own or is it the voice in your head?
Yeah, I tend to buy books I want. Dislike having a book I want being unavailable, so I, you know, get my own. Hell, my library did not carry "Cult City" and I found such censorship distasteful, personally. But I did not DEMAND they carry it. Just got it myself.
Sorry if you like to mooch off others.
And?
You don't know that -- the form in question is for all requests, as I understand it. But more importantly, your standard would not be content neutral, so it's inappropriate as a public policy.
Abundance of caution.
A time stamp for a video?
Fuck, do people have to spoon feed you everything?
Nah.
My computer won't let me post links so I do what I can.
You apparently cannot use google.
Copy the quote and paste it in your browser. Its the first freaking thing
I'm not seeing it.
Well, Bob's concern seems to be the legally correct one as the court said no.
A heuristic is a rule of thumb that probably yields a good answer, but is not guaranteed to yield the optimal answer.
From a case years ago, where people requested the names of those who signed a petition to get something on the ballot, for the express purpose of going to harrass them, the SC noted the people had a right to see the names, so they could be confident the signatures were authentic, but that the acknowledged real reason was concerning.
So yes, this heuristic probably yields a good answer here.
That's a step too far.
Do something herself? That ain't happening.
Unless she is stalking you.
Gee, you'd think Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet.
Books really are not that expensive. Not that hard to shop for deals.
Make it so others do not have to pay for it and you can get any books you want.
Otherwise, you're mooching and people do not have to agree.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2023/10/06/hillary-clinton-maga-cult-extremists-donald-trump-house-republicans-amanpour-cnntm-vpx.cnn
That was, mind you, UNBELIEVABLY difficult to find. I only, you know, followed his instructions.
Actually, this is what Scalia had to say in Doe v. Reed (that's the case you are thinking of).
Plaintiffs raise concerns that the disclosure of petition signatures may lead to threats and intimidation. Of course nothing prevents the people of Washington from keeping petition signatures secret to avoid that—just as nothing prevented the States from moving to the secret ballot. But there is no constitutional basis for this Court to impose that course upon the States—or to insist (as today’s opinion does) that it can only be avoided by the demonstration of a “sufficiently important governmental interest,” ante, at 7 (internal quotation marks omitted). And it may even be a bad idea to keep petition signatures secret. There are laws against threats and intimidation; and harsh criticism, short of unlawful action, is a price our people have traditionally been willing to pay for self-governance. Requiring people to stand up in public for their political acts fosters civic courage, without which democracy is doomed. For my part, I do not look forward to a society which, thanks to the Supreme Court, campaigns anonymously (McIntyre) and even exercises the direct democracy of initiative and referendum hidden from public scrutiny and protected from the accountability of criticism. This does not resemble the Home of the Brave.
And again, you are free to go buy the book. Nobody is restricting your access to fuck up kids.
You have to buy the book because it is banned from the library. We are being asked to respect and defer to book banners.
ANYTHING to pretend you're not BOOK BANNERS.