The Volokh Conspiracy
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Is Donald Trump Eligible to Be Speaker of the House?
For a brief moment, some Republicans were arguing the disgraced and indicted President should be the next Speaker of the House.
There's a fascinating and detailed debate over whether former President Donald Trump is disqualified from again serving as President under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. After House Speaker Kevin McCartyh was ousted, some of suggested that Trump should be Speaker, and some reports suggested the former President was open to it. (Maybe he liked the idea of having Speech and Debate Clause immunity to use as a shield against judicial gag orders.) But would Trump be eligible to be Speaker?
Setting aside the Section 3 issues (such as whether Trump's conduct was disqualifying and whether the Speakership is the sort of office covered by the amendment), there is a dispute over whether an individual who is not an elected member of the House may serve as speaker.
As summarized by Louis Jacobson for Politifact, many experts believe there is no constitutional requirement that the Speaker of the House be selected from among the House's members, even though this has never happened before. Back in 2015, Pete Williams reported for NBC that both the Clerk of the House and the House historian concurred with this view.
Not everyone shares this view. In today's WSJ, Michael Ellis and Greg Dubinsky argue against the notion that a non-House member can serve as Speaker. They believe it's an "urban legend" that the Speaker need not be an elected representative. They write:
The theory that anyone can be elected speaker relies on a seeming omission in the Constitution. Article I states that the House "shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers." Because the clause doesn't expressly state that the speaker must be a member, proponents infer that anyone could be speaker.
But textual silence in one clause is weak evidence. Settled practice, history and constitutional structure cut the other way. As a matter of longstanding practice, every speaker has been a member, a tradition that dates to the First Congress (1789-91). As the Congressional Research Service notes, the first recorded votes for nonmembers to be speaker were cast in 1997, and since then no nonmember has ever received more than a handful of votes in a speaker election. . . .
Constitutional structure also indicates that the speaker must be a member of the House. Article VI requires constitutional oaths of office only from senators, representatives, state legislators and all federal and state executive and judicial officers. It would make little sense to require an oath of office from these officials while exempting a nonmember speaker. Moreover, Article I vests all "legislative Powers" in the Senate and the House, and the House is "composed of Members" elected every two years. Unlike the "other Officers" elected by the House, like the clerk and the sergeant at arms, the speaker engages in legislative functions. By statute, the speaker must sign enrolled bills before they are presented to the president and administer the oath of office to other members. An enrolled bill signed by a nonlegislator could be vulnerable to legal challenge.
Other legal problems could arise if the speaker isn't a member. What if the House decided to elect a member of another branch? That would seem to violate the spirit of Article I, Section 6, which prohibits any person "holding any Office under the United States"—meaning certain executive or judicial officers—from being "a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office." It would be strange to bar a Supreme Court justice from being a member of Congress, but then allow one to serve as the far more powerful speaker.
Fortunately, it does not appear we will have to resolve this question any time soon. There are at least two House Republicans vying for the position, and one of them (or one of their colleagues) is likely to be the next Speaker.
UPDATE: Matt Franck also made the argument against the eligibility of a non-House member back in 2015 when some folks were suggesting Newt Ginrich should return as Speaker. See his NRO Bench Memos posts here and here.
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And would he be temporarily immune from prosecution under some Constitutional thing about Congress not being questioned during whatever?
For some reason this goofy idea popped into my head when I heard of it.
Some democrat DA somewhere would indict him for something new, and he would have to step aside.
Not worth the bother, except for the entertainment value involved in who would indict for what.
But to address the argument above, the plain text of the constitution clearly doesn't matter. All that matters is what the fascists want. Refer to "shall not be infringed" (gun control) and "deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" (asset forfeiture without charge or trial)
Speaker Trump could reveal the armament and capabilities of our nuclear submarines on the House floor without fear of prosecution. He would still be liable for anything he said off the job, or for shooting a man on Fifth Avenue.
The armament and capabilities of our nuclear submarines is already common knowledge.
See, they should have raided Mar-a-Lago before those secrets were auctioned off.
The press is going on about statements Trump made about nuclear submarines. It's unlikely he said anything that would benefit the very few countries that could act on the information. What isn't common knowledge is known to Russia and China.
Guys like you -- obsolete, un-American, bigot-hugging (at best) -- can't be replaced fast enough.
Carry on, clinger . . . but only so far and so long as better Americans permit.
Hell, Tom Clancy knows more about nuclear submarines than Trump.
And he's dead!
And he still knows more than the Orange Clown
And it was all public sources.
Trump would argue that shooting someone on 5th Avenue came within his authority as speaker and his more devoted fans would agree.
No, members of Congress are not immune from being indicted.
On top of that, Conference rule 26 would require any Republican in a leadership position who has been indicted to step down.
https://www.gop.gov/conference-rules-of-the-118th-congress/
I was actually expecting this article to address rule 26.
That's a caucus rule.
It has no legal significance. It has no significance under house rules.
The application of the Speech and Debate clause protections for Trump as Speaker would be quite interesting.
Could a gag order from the Judicial branch be enforced, for instance if Trump were speaking regarding an impeachment of the Judge or the Attorney General or employees/prosecutors? Would the Speech and Debate clause apply against a Judicial gag order if Trump were speaking regarding removing all federal funding that may go toward state judges or prosecutions alleged to constitute “election interference”? What about in relation to federal funding of courts or DOJ?
There are any number of legislative functions and contexts that could cause the Speech and Debate clause to apply meaningfully in relation to Trump’s civil and criminal litigation.
Note...Speech and Debate clause is not limited to “Senators and Representatives”
Gravel v U.S. 408 U.S. 606 (1972) (Speech & Debate clause applicable to Senate staff), and 3/27/23 Opinion from In Re Grand Jury Subpoena (Speech & Debate clause applicable to VP Pence). https://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/sites/dcd/files/Attachment%205.pdf
The underlying analyses would appear to support applying Speech & Debate clause to a non-Member Speaker of the House.
Regarding the criminal trials … might they be foreclosed while Trump serves as Speaker. The DOJ Office of Legal Counsel 1973 and then 2000 memos provide some arguments that making a sitting House Speaker subject to the jurisdiction of the criminal courts would be inconsistent with his Legislative Branch position, the Constitutionally recognized head of the House of Representatives.
https://www.justice.gov/d9/olc/opinions/2000/10/31/op-olc-v024-p0222_0.pdf
As a non-member speaker, would anyone have debate rights on any legislation?
This may not be the darkest timeline, but it is the stupidest.
A few republicans floated the Idea of Trump being speaker of the house. Though only a few nuts took it seriously. Doubtful any more 10 people in total took it seriously.
I would argue that a whole lot less than 10 Rs ever took it seriously. The cynical version of me thinks it was the legislative equivalent of a prank - the nomination of someone just to watch their opponents' (and the Sunday morning talk show flunkies) heads explode.
The slightly less cynical version of me thinks it was an attempt to shift the Overton window. By proposing, then rejecting an extreme candidate, you make an otherwise-unwinnable candidate appear more reasonable.
I have somewhat similar take - intended as a joke - just to see how many of those suffering from TDS would go balisitic
It’d certainly be fun to watch.
Tom,
Are you talking about the Trump supporters who have TDS, or the Trump opponents who have TDS. (I suspect that the level of TDS is much stronger in the first group--albeit derangement in favor of Trump's musings and ramblings.)
Yeah, I said basically the same thing a day or two ago -- before I saw Jim Jordan was the frontrunner. Feeling better and better about that theory now....
Yes, some might recall one nut who apparently took it seriously was Rep. Brendan Boyle (D-Pa.) who in 2021 introduced a bill, per his own words, explicitly to prevent Trump from being elected Speaker.
Much of the talk is simply to agitate leftists, not known for their emotional stability or control, who react to Trump's name like a vampire reacts to a cross.
Fortunately, it does not appear we will have to resolve this question any time soon. There are at least two House Republicans vying for the position, and one of them (or one of their colleagues) is likely to be the next Speaker.
More importantly, when the speaker is actually presiding over the house they need to spend hours recognizing speakers and ruling on points of order.
Do people really think Trump is capable of doing that?
To be more explicit. The people who can imagine Trump acting as speaker are probably the same people who believed this painting.
Here's a better idea: As a practical matter, the House is effectively evenly divided. How about if moderate Democrats, and moderate Republicans, band together and elect a moderate as speaker with a deal that includes a significant amount of power sharing, tell their extremist wings to go to hell, and actually govern?
Well, bless your heart.
As a practical matter - there are very few moderates that are currently in the house. In the senate on the democrat side, probably only Simena or Machin have voting records that are not near 100% in line with progressives. Granted my comment deals with senate, though probably less than 30 moderates in either party in the house.
There you're wrong. While there are a few truly progressive Democrats in Congress (Bernie Sanders, AOC), most of them range from slightly right of center to slightly left of center. It only seems to you like they're progressives because you yourself are so extremist right that anything even remotely approaching moderate appears progressive by comparison. But that's only if we compare them to you, not if we compare them to what, objectively, is actual progressivism.
McCarthy could have made that happen. But he refused to negotiate with Democrats.
You're absolutely right. Kevin McCarthy has no one to blame but himself.
Is there an investment fund that invests in the exact same things as AOC or Bernie? In the decade or so until I retire, I'd like to amass a few million with honest investments not derivative of backroom dealing, insider information, nor having an investment savant relative suddenly manifesting super-genius.
According to AOC’s most recent financial disclosures, she has between $3,003 and $45,000 in assets, including her 401k pension plan, and $15,000 in student debt.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-aoc-net-worth/fact-check-no-evidence-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-has-a-net-worth-of-29-million-idUSL1N2ZL1O2
That financial disclosure was filed in 2021 but I doubt much has changed in the last two years. I’m sure she would like to amass a few millions too.
Setting aside the insider trading rumors, after going from a bartender's income to $174k/year in Congress, it's... interesting she would have less than $50k to her name nearly 5 years in.
Occam would gently suggest she's having her huband-not-husband (her long-term partner who she declared as a spouse when convenient/beneficial but decided he wasn't when it was time for financial disclosures) hold the material assets.
And certainly it would have been silly to pay off the student debt when she was advocating for it to be wiped out!
All her debt is gone in 10 years as she is in a public service job.
Wow, fantasy AOC is sure devious to hide her fantasy millions.
What are you defining "moderate" or "the center" as?
I think of it in terms of the practicalities of recognizing that many issues have more than one side to them, and it's possible to seek middle ground.
For example, I don't support abortion up until the moment the baby's head enters the birth canal, but neither do I think zygotes have legal rights. There is a middle ground between those two extremist positions.
I don't support gun confiscation, but neither do I think large magazines and AR-47s should be readily available to anyone who wants one. There is a middle ground between those extremist positions.
And that's true of all other hot button issues: religious exemptions from laws they find objectionable, government involvement in heath care, government regulation. You've got extremists on both sides of all those issues who concede no middle ground, who insist it's all or nothing, and who will not compromise.
And my point is not to get into the merits of any of those issues. Just to answer your question about what I consider a centrist: Someone who understands that issues have two sides and the trick is to find as happy a medium as is possible.
At least in the 1980s, both houses of Congress used to be as you described. I saw it routinely, working for a progressive senator. Unfortunately that mode of coexistence in Congress has all but disappeared. It will return, but will take a long time.
One can dream...
Moderate democrat? Moderate republican?
What next? Pretending the rainbow is a Judeo-Christian symbol?
Every one of whom would be primaried, most would lose.
On a semi-related issue concerning the currently vacant Speakership, I was having a conversation with a friend about whether current Speaker pro tem Patrick McHenry is in the presidential line of succession. The consensus opinion (and mine) is that he is not, and, the Speakership being vacant, next in line after Vice President Kamala Harris, would be Senate President pro tem Patty Murray.
The Constitution provides that the House "shall chuse their Speaker", and the House did not elect McHenry. But, contraire, says my friend, they did, in effect, "choose" him by approving the Rules by which he is the Speaker pro tem.
God help us if we actually have to answer that question.
Congress could, if they so wished, make it so that only House members can be Speaker with simple legislation.
They have not done so.
I would think they could do that only by setting their own rules, but then they could set aside those rules in the same way. I don't think they could be constrained by a law beyond those rules, except by amending Article I clauses "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings" and "The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker". (It turns out that "to chuse" has the meanings of "to choose" but also an additional meaning of "to humiliate a person named Kevin".)
For sure.
But if they wanted to make a non-member Speaker they couldn't do so if it was at odds with the Constitution whatever rule or law they passed.
But the Constitution is silent on the issue.
Even if it weren't silent, it's a political question; it would up to them, not the courts, to decide whether the constitution allowed that.
So much of what passes for law today is at odds with the constitution it can't be listed.
I don't think it could do that anymore that it could pass a law requiring the Speaker to be male or be older than 50. One Congress could not impose such restrictions on future Congresses. It could probably bind itself for its duration with a rule to that effect, but it would be of limited utility since the Speaker is chosen before its rules are adopted. I suppose it could probably pass a rule to the effect of, "Should the Speakership become vacant during this Congress, any replacement must be a current member of the House", but rules expire when the Congress expires.
They chose him for the office of Speaker pro tem. Not as Speaker of the House. I don't think the offices are equivalent. If your friend is right, the junior member who is appointed as speaker pro tem each day to preside over proceedings could make a claim to be in the line of succession, since they also were chosen under house rules to be speaker.
"disgraced"? How?
“by their acts ye shall know them” Matt 7:20
important, but obvious
While the idea of the Speaker of the House not being a member may seem highly unusual today, it might not have seemed so in 1787. The Speaker has developed into a very powerful position, but the fact that the Drafters of the Constitution devoted so little attention to the job, suggests that was not their intent, envisioning the position as one akin to the Speaker of the British House of Commons, a counterpart to the President (or president pro tem) of the Senate. Essentially, just the presiding officer who doesn't really have much power at all. (As an aside, the first nine Speakers of the English House of Commons were not members, though all have been since 1351). And, while the Speaker wields great power, he only wields as much as the House gives him.
As noted, the Constitution provides "the House shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers." The "other Officers" -the Clerk, Chaplain, Sergeant-at-Arms, etc., have never been members. But, once upon a time, the Clerk was a powerful, coveted position, sometimes elected after only several ballots. The Clerk from the previous Congress would carry over into the next Congress until the new Speaker was elected, at which point a new Clerk would be elected (or the old Clerk re-elected). Essentially, the Clerk controlled the House between the end of one Congress and the election of a Speaker in the next. This was an invitation to great partisan mischief. For example, in 1849, at the opening of the Twenty-Sixth Congress, the House Clerk, Hugh Garland, while calling the roll, passed over the names of five Whig members-elect whose seats were being contested by Democrats, giving the Democrats a numerical advantage in the House. Additionally, the Clerk controlled the House's operating funds.
In sum, the Speaker is only powerful because the members of the House give him a lot of power, but this was likely not the intent of the Founders. When viewed through that lens, the idea of a non-member Speaker does not seem that unusual. Additionally, there is at least some precedent for the House giving non-members substantial power over its affairs.
"We knew he had a problem. Everyone did. It was a bizarre normal. Barry being an addict didn’t move the needle for those living in the city during this time. In fact, it humanized him. It endeared him to people who believed that if the 'bitch' was the government, then she’d also set us up, too. [...] So the news of Barry smoking crack didn’t make me hate him. It made me empathetic to his struggle. [...] Most important, it confirmed the one thing that Chocolate City believed before his arrest: that the government was just as corrupt as we believed it to be."
(from https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marion-barry-trump-belief-magic_n_65020c84e4b04bad69ec3266)
As a reminder, we know as fact that President Trump correctly and truthfully described "Russiagate" as an attempted coup d'état: we have yet to learn as fact if his detractors engaged in additional even more disgraceful lies about him, but there is certainly reason to be suspicious of accusations originating from the same sources which endorsed the well-organized "Russiagate" hoax. The government, and its tools in academia, are just as corrupt as we believed them to be.
This is your target audience, Volokh Conspirators . . . and the reason strong, mainstream law schools do not wish to be associated with you or your blog.
Trump famously claimed that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and he wouldn't lose any supporters, but the mental illness in MAGAland is greater than that: Trump could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and his supporters would deny that he had done it.
the disgraced and indicted former President
What is this -- Fox & Friends or an Alina Habba brief?
Breathe, Artie. Pop a Xanax, count to 100 or so, pray to all your secular gods in rank or alphabetical order as presecribed in the liturgy, and then let your eyes drift two lines down to the very first sentence in the post: "There's a fascinating and detailed debate over whether former President Donald Trump is disqualified . . ."
At newspapers, a shitty headline was not rescued by an adequate article. Maybe the standard differs at white, male, right-wing blogs.
Wow, apparently someone needs some remedial education on where the headline ends. Did they not teach that in Your-Betters-We-Promise U? Shel Silverstein may be of help.
A ridiculous assertion by the profs that the speaker must be a member of Congress.
There argument is self refuting:
"The theory that anyone can be elected speaker relies on a seeming omission in the Constitution. Article I states that the House "shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers." Because the clause doesn't expressly state that the speaker must be a member, proponents infer that anyone could be speaker."
How many House Sergeant of Arms have been members? And their isn't much doubt the Sergeant of Arms is included as such "other Officers" because the House votes each session on who the Sergeant of Arms is as required by the Constitution, nor is their any textual distinction on qualifications between the Speaker and Sergeant of Arms, just that the House shall "chuse" them.
Sometimes it helps to read the original article.
"Unlike the "other Officers" elected by the House, like the clerk and the sergeant at arms, the speaker engages in legislative functions. By statute, the speaker must sign enrolled bills before they are presented to the president and administer the oath of office to other members. An enrolled bill signed by a nonlegislator could be vulnerable to legal challenge."
By statute, the speaker must sign enrolled bills before they are presented to the president and administer the oath of office to other members.
Rather obviously, such statutes postdate the Constitution. The Speaker has legislative functions because the House has chosen to give him legislative functions. There is no Constitutional requirement that the Speaker must sign bills. In the years preceding the Civil War, the House Clerk had rather extensive legislative functions, yet no Clerk has never been a member of the House.
One doesn't have to look very far from the House to find a legislative body over which a non-member presides: the U.S. Senate.
I agree. There seems to be very little real meat in the argument.
As you point out, a law made by Congress requiring the Speaker to sign Bills couldn’t possibly affect the question of whether the Constitution requires the Speaker to be a member of the House, which not only antedates the law in question, but involves superior law – the Constitution.
Likewise :
Moreover, Article I vests all “legislative Powers” in the Senate and the House, and the House is “composed of Members” elected every two years.
And last but not least :
But textual silence in one clause is weak evidence.
ought to cause anyone to do a double take. The absence of a rule set out in the text is prima facie evidence that there is no rule. The burden of proof is overwhelmingly on those who would find a rule within the penumbra of nothingness.
Whoops
Moreover, Article I vests all “legislative Powers” in the Senate and the House, and the House is “composed of Members” elected every two years.
was supposed to be followed by :
Hello ? President of the Senate, anyone ?
Not really much of a debate, SCOTUS already shot that down.
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4234067-supreme-court-declines-to-hear-long-shot-14th-amendment-challenge-to-disqualify-trump/
And it seems common sense that the speaker would have to be a member of the House. If they selected an outsider that can't even cast votes, then what? What salary would he/she receive? Would that person have a desk? An office?
That's not how it works. The Supreme Court's declining to hear a case has zero legal significance. It sets no precedent of any sort.
If this or something like it came up, I honestly think the courts would ratify the House's choice, although they might take issue with holding other offices.
I don't think this was ever a serious proposal, though. Partly I'm sure it was to generate controversy and keep names in the news, and perhaps also to goad Trump into making an endorsement.
I tried to think of examples of parliamentary bodies presided over by a non-member. The only ones that came to mind were the US Senate and, until 2005, the UK House of Lords.
But during the time when the constitution was written, there was another one: The States of Holland were famously presided over by a powerful Grand Pensionary. The presidency of the States General of the United Netherlands rotated among its seven members, but Holland (and, I suspect, some of the other six States) had a non-voting prime minister-like figure as chair.
The Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives is one of the most powerful individuals in the federal government. He is the leader of the House and his party in the House, and his goal is to push his party's priorities through the House.
The Speaker of the U.K. House of Commons is scrupulously nonpartisan and impartial. He does not take sides in debates or attempt to influence them. He is essentially a moderator. This is the Speaker with which our Founders were familiar, and the Speaker they envisioned. Viewed through that lens, it would hardly seem to matter whether the Speaker was a member of the House or not.
Additionally, in the extremely unlikely event that the House should ever elect a non-member as Speaker, it seems a virtual certainty that the courts would hold any challenge to that choice was nonjusticiable.
The aim is not to throw leftists into hysterical fits for its own sake, but to have others witness those fits. Think the cross-examinations in The Caine Mutiny, or A Few Good Men, or any episode of Perry Mason.
See also Rev.
A representative that most of the country has never heard of introducing a bill doesn't look like a hysterical fit, let alone whether anyone witnessed it. Republicans taking fifteen ballots to choose their speaker in January? The extremists in the Republican caucus booting their own speaker in October? Everyone saw those hysterical fits.
Precisely!
Good luck with that, whether it's a joke, a troll, or they genuinely think it's a good idea, each option just highlights how utterly unsuitable for public office Trump is and how unserious Republicans are.
Grabbing your stuff and keeping it is not due process.
How is it that you think civil forfeiture works?