The Volokh Conspiracy
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Brian Leiter on Adrian Vermeule
Is Common Good Constitutionalism anything more than politics by other means?
The University of Chicago Law Review has just published Brian Leiter's critique of Professor Adrian Vermeule's Common Good Constitutionalism. As you might expect, Leiter is not a fan. What is interesting is the extent to which this critique overlaps or intersects with those from the Right, such as that offered by Judge Bill Pryor.
Here is the abstract:
Adrian Vermeule proposes an alternative to the two dominant schools of constitutional interpretation in the United States: originalism and "progressivism" (i.e., "living constitutionalism"). Against these approaches, he argues courts (and other institutional actors) should explicitly interpret the text of the Constitution, statutes, and administrative decrees with an eye to promoting the "common good" as understood in what he calls the classical tradition, meaning that it should be understood in distinctly non-utilitarian and non-individualist terms. Officials should do so using something like Dworkin's method of "constructive interpretation" (hereafter CI), in which the aim is to reach the decision that would follow from legal principles that enjoy some degree of explanatory "fit" with prior official acts (court decisions, legislation, etc.), but in which the inevitable explanatory gap is filled by reliance on those principles that provide the best moral justification for the institutional history of the legal system. For Vermeule, those moral principles are ones that embody the natural law's idea of the "common good" rather than (as he puts it) Dworkin's "moral commitments and priorities…which [are] of a conventionally left-liberal and individualist bent." I argue that: (1) Vermeule's conception of the "common good" is neither plausible, nor even defended, except by misleading appeal to a supposed "natural law"; unfortunately (2) there is no reason to think a "natural law" exists, and, in any case, the "natural law" tradition does not speak univocally on what constitutes "principles of objective natural morality (ius naturale)" contrary to the misleading impression Vermeule gives; and (3) Dworkin's CI is not so easily severed from his moral commitments, and in any case, Vermeule never gives a reason to think it provides (even on Vermeule's preferred version) a more plausible account of what courts and agencies have been doing than the legal positivist view of law, which he mostly misunderstands and consistently maligns. In the absence of any serious jurisprudential foundations, Vermuele's so-called "common good constitutionalism" is just "politics by other means."
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I think this is right. I don't think things are as simple as "you can't legislate morality"-- you obviously can and it happens all the time-- but what IS true is that you can't use the legal system to impose a moral code that the public does not share. And that goes just as well for the judiciary as it does for the legislature-- the only difference is doing it through the judiciary is more dangerous because it is harder to overturn.
And Vermeuelle et al. have never won any moral debates. Indeed, they haven't really tried. The notion of "common good" that comes out of the religious right, whether Catholic integralist or evangelical protestantism, is one that most Americans think is at best stupid and at worst evil and intolerant. And you can't just impose stuff like that by fiat. The public will reject it, disobey it, and revolt against it.
And I really think that there's something not only wrongheaded but fundamentally dumb about the whole enterprise. It's as if Vermeule believes if the laws change, gays will stop having sex with other gays, women will see the light and stop having abortions and using contraception, everyone will stop having premarital sex, people will no longer want to hasten the end of their sick relatives' suffering, etc.
It doesn't work this way. You have to actually persuade people. The legal system isn't a shortcut. And the reason Vermeulle represents only a tiny minority EVEN WITHIN HIS OWN CHURCH is his ideas are awful and he can't persuade anyone.
Better Americans will continue to prevail against the religious right -- at the modern American marketplace of ideas, in the culture war, and in every setting not warped by childish fairy tales and silly superstition.
How will you prevail?
Are you lifting weights bro? That is fine, but if you are taking steroids to prevail, that is going too far. Think of your long-term health!
I think maybe your desire to prevail is too strong. Because maybe you are engaging in short-term thinking.
How? By winning elections. By shaping American progress. By relying on modernity, science, reason, inclusiveness, progress, and education while watching losers rely on ignorance, dogma, bigotry, superstition, insularity, and backwardness. By continuing to win the culture war. By the watching stale, ugly thinking of conservatives die off as America continues to improve in the reality-based world.
You mention inclusiveness, but I am not sure your black and white thinking where some people are “winners” and some people are “losers” really implies inclusiveness.
It sounds more like an epic battle between the forces of good versus evil. Which MIGHT in turn be driven by your own prejudices rather reasoning about objective reality.
I think one of the most important things you can do is figure out who your enemies really are. I am not convinced you have really figured it out.
With its echo of the Tolerance Paradox, David, that's better than the usual I'm Not...You Are! responses to RKLA's standard statement of principles. Congratulations.
Of course, the "driven by your own prejudices rather [than] reasoning" argument is easily applicable by pretty much anyone to everyone and everything of which one disapproves, so it kinda turns into I'm Not...You Are! anyway.
And...I can't tell if you actually disagree with the primary point of what was an answer to your question. Did you purposefully avoid answering?
To be clear, I do agree with it, mostly. Blunt but optimistic, it's just a breakout of part of the philosophy behind The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice. Generally an optimist myself (though less by nature than by policy), I interpret it as noting there’s evidence that over the centuries, over millennia, human society slowly but demonstrably evolves, matures, improves, and ultimately, advances. But that happens with lots of starts and stops and considerable backsliding. The Trump Interregnum will be viewed as one of those periods of backsliding and recovering from MAGAism will, regretfully, take many years of what RKLA describes.
Reaching 70, that doesn't seem as long as it used to. So, even though I won't see its end, I remain optimistic.
Rev's corollary: While the arc of history bends toward justice, it takes a detour in order to stomp on clingers and force stuff down their throats.
But after that is accomplished, it's right back toward justice again.
So...the arc of history is like socialism on its way to becoming pure communism...in the end it produces a classless society without oppression, but during the process of reaching that end it's necessary to do some stomping of those who resist progress.
Yeah, it is interesting how these communists, when they have power, somehow end up creating a sort of aristocracy featuring them in power. It is all "temporary" of course, where "temporary" is much longer than the lifetime of any human being now existing.
If you haven't observed that there are winners and losers in the modern American culture war, you are daft. For example: People who want to make life miserable for gays because they contend an imaginary god compels (and entitles) them to be old-timey, disgusting bigots are (and should be) losers in today's America.
Let’s examine your first argument.
“If you don’t agree with X, you are daft.”
I believe this is argument by threatened insult or something? “If you don’t want me to call you a mean name, you had better agree with me.”
Come on now. You were arguing for rationality earlier, right?
I think you just like to think that people who think gays are bad are the “real” bad people because it is emotionally satisfying.
But, in indulging in that emotion, I just see you as basically doing the same thing. Making superficial moral judgments.
Look, if someone is told that book X has all the moral answers and they haven’t thought about challenging that and thinking for themselves, I think that is unfortunate. I don’t see how calling them a mean name , in this case, a bigot, is helpful.
Like, that isn’t a rational appeal.
If you are going to tell people they should adopt more rational approaches to thinking, you should lead by example. You are literally just becoming the mirror image of what you are criticizing, it seems to me. The only difference is that you derive your irrational prejudices from a different source.
In general, I think you are relying excessively on ad hominem. The problem with ad hominem is that it doesn’t really resolve anything. Person X uses as hominem against Y. Then Y does it back to X.
Like, what we are observing in such instances isn’t humans being rational, but instead engaging in more primitive primate rituals.
Stick with the racists and racism. The superstition. The gay-bashers, misogynists, immigrant-haters, and other bigots. The half-educated culture war casualties and obsolete right-wing assholes. It suits you. You sound like someone who deserves to lose as America continues to improve. As you await replacement, the gay-hating assholes and Volokh Conspiacy fans will keep you company and keep gratuitous racism alive a bit longer.
Your view of this country is really distorted and not based on reality.
To the extent that you aren’t just a troll, as many have suggested.
I believe you want to be the hero in some sort of fantasy. And for that reason, you must create enemies in your head.
“The public will reject it, disobey it, and revolt against it.”
He uses his Common Good interpretation to promote the administrative state, and coauthored a book with Cass Sunstein in favor of it.
I don’t like his support of the administrative state – and other forms of authoritarianism. I regard him as similar to the FedEx guy who delivers (or redelivers) a package – containing the classical legal tradition. I don’t assume that the FedEx guy is the best expert on the content of the package.
For example, I don’t see a vast administrative state in the Constitution. But the public seems to like it.
Also, to give him his due, he does say that the primary responsibility of turning fundamental legal principles into positive law is up to the lawmaker. The interpreter (like a judge) only comes in when the positive law is unclear (admittedly not a rare situation).
"For example, I don’t see a vast administrative state in the Constitution."
I'd say it's in the very first sentence.
We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
"...and therefore the courts should use a model of broad deference to the decisions of the Federal Trade Commission."
Yes, I see the connection.
Does Prof. Vermeule contend his "natural law" was provided by his (illusory, paltry) god?
Competent adults neither accept nor advance superstition-based arguments in reasoned debate, especially with respect to public affairs. Federalist Society members, however, often do.
After the last few years of lemming-like fervor to be the first to inject the latest poorly-tested, bleeding edge technology concoction into their deltoid while wearing a face covering (or two!) actual scientists had recognized for nearly a century was worthless against the spread of respiratory viruses, and to bludgeon actual scientists over the head with threats of social and career ostracization for having the temerity to point any of that out, this is an exceptionally welcome development. Can we expect an official apology, or are we supposed to just move on and forget it ever happened?
I haven't read Prof. Vermeule's article, so I can't answer your question. But I have a counter-question for you. If your rights don't come from God, where do they come from? The government? If so, if the government wanted to, it could deprive you of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, right to keep & bear arms, etc. Heck, it could just say, out of the blue: "Arthur is no good, let's get rid of him!" and then proceed to execute you. Why not? Under your philosophy, you are the government's plaything, it can do with you what it wills, with absolutely no restraint. (I mean, nothing is above government, right Arthur?)
Yes, there are only two choices for moral authority: God or the State.
These arguments say a lot about the moral world of the arguer. Without externally imposed threats what would you be like, Ed?
Sarcastr0:
I think it is interesting that even in criticizing Ed, you can't help but frame things in moral terms:
"Without externally imposed threats what would you be like, Ed?"
Are you conceding to his argument, or not?
What a bizarre riposte. Governments oppress, enslave, and kill people all the time. When has god ever done a thing to stop it?
How about mutual agreement, enforced ultimately by the strength of those who participate in the agreement.
The trouble with natural law, or divinely ordained law, is:
1. There is no reason to think we all agree on what specifically it requires. Must we abstain from eating pork?
2. History does not tell us that societies that followed what they considered divine law were, or are, particularly great places to live.
3. If it works poorly, it's very hard to amend.
4. Instead of vesting power in secular politicians it vests power in priests, who are generally much harder to remove from office.
5. Most important, it leaves no room for human agency.
Agreement does not get us anywhere, because you have to ask us why you should be able to try to bind someone to a promise in the first place.
I get that agreements are based on reciprocity. But reciprocity is a moral concept.
Like, someone with no morals can pretend to enter into an agreement with you, have you perform, and then not perform at all.
You mention enforcement based on strength. But this would imply that the weak shouldn’t expect the strong to keep their promises.
I think you are also overspecifying the level of agreement that is required for natural law. The idea behind, like the American founding, is you can create a foundation based on the rejection of nobility and the alternative belief that everyone is born equal.
So, apparently you feel you can’t weigh what is good without being told by the Bible? If you behave ethically in this life, it's only because you’re threatened with the loss of a 2nd life? That seems a sad and bitter approach to life indeed.
Actually, morality starts with empathy—the root of human goodness (and not just human, either). Recognizing that others are the same as you in their needs, their abilities to feel pain, their capacity for love, etc. is exactly where the Golden Rule came from.
Perhaps you’re just unfamiliar with the academic field of the origin of human ethics and morality, which seem to exist in all self-aware animals that live in interactive societies. Social animals exhibit empathy and the behavior it engenders. Nature seems to select for it.
Empathy then leads to Compassion—a related but more advanced concept. Then adding Enlightened Self-Interest leads to the development of the Social Compact. This all affects the development of human morality, ethics and values, without religion as a necessary component (For an introduction to the topic, search for Frans de Waal’s The Greater Good theory. If still interested, go back and review Hobbes and Spinoza’s thoughts around the social contract).
Natural law does not require a belief in gods or a God. It requires a belief in the fundamental moral equality of all people, with the belief that anyone is born "better" in a sense of "morally entitled to rule" from birth off the table.
The Declaration of Independence, which does invoke God, expresses the idea as "all men are created equal." But one does not need to believe in any religion to buy into that idea, although many people DO use religious reasoning to get there. The idea that all humans are made in the image of God might lead you to the conclusion that all humans are created equal.
If you start with the logic that humans are equal, you conclude that no one has a "natural right" to rule over anyone else. Instead, people have a right to an equal voice in their government. And they also have a bunch of other inalienable rights that must be recognized. One cannot sell themselves into slavery, for example. You don't click Twitter's terms of service without reading it and then suddenly become a lesser human being. And if you violate a contract that requires your silence, you may need to pay damages, but you can't be criminally punished. You have a right to self-defense. Etc.
Just because some people come to the basic premise required to build the natural law edifice for religion, you shouldn't be confused into thinking that religion is a necessary component for natural law. What is important is buying into the basic premise that "all humans are created equal."
It should be pointed out that a competing "natural law" concept known as the "divine right of kings" DEFINITELY does require religion to justify it. Whereas, one maybe accept the idea that humans are born equal just based on the observation that asserting anything else is just arbitrary.
What is important is buying into the basic premise that 'all humans are created equal.'”
I don't buy that at all.
I will buy that people have equal rights.
"I will buy that people have equal rights."
This is KIND OF what we are getting at when we say people are equal. Except, you have to ask why you have rights at all.
Why should people have rights?
Anyway, no need to answer the question. By buying into the idea that people have equal rights, you have bought into the idea that people are equal in the respect that is relevant. As mentioned, you can get to the same natural law logic without religion.
The natural lawyers of today (George, Finnis, et al.) tend to eschew relying on God as the source of their arguments. Technically the natural law is what's discoverable through reason, not necessarily what's revealed in scripture or Church authority.
Aristotle isn't Jewish or Christian; but he's a source of the natural law method. They do believe though that technically God is the author of all truth. And that truth cannot contradict truth.
It always amazes me when religious people think Kant never happened.
Kant's idealism has been swallowed whole by the American Left. Not sure why you're invoking him here.
Sapere aude and The Enlightenment? Yes, I’ve swallowed that. I’m not sure why you’re denying its invocation here.
If you reject the idea of natural law, then the state can do anything. That is what you have in Communist China.
That is kind of what the left flirts with now. "Should we allow people to express themselves?" they ask. Rather than "Do people have a right to express themselves."
If rights don't flow from nature, then they are just political constructs. And if they are just political constructs, then they are just discretionary. "What about hate speech?"
Basically, natural law is superior because it reaffirms the "natural equality" of all people. That is, a person can explore hateful ideas because we don't have a right to tell them what they can or can't think about or talk about. I think if you have confidence in human beings, you don't worry that much about it, because ideas without a great logical foundation, like hatred lacking any foundation, generally isn't persuasive. Sure. a particular individual may become stuck in an irrational way of thinking, sometimes. But most people will not.
I don't really care if someone has a theory that natural law comes from God or it just comes from the logical observation that humans are naturally born equal. People can have a wide variety of reasons to come to the conclusion that people are fundamentally equal and that it is arbitrary to treat a particular individual or groups as nobility. But once they get to that conclusion, there is a shared basis for "natural law" to arise.
The idea that we come together in society on an equal basis and create a government to serve us. And that there is no class of nobility. And people who serve in government are not masters, but instead the servants of everyone. (That is, public servants.) I think that is what natural law is ultimately all about.
If you look at the United Nations charter and the ideas of human rights, it is all based on natural law.
One way to think about it is this. Natural law is what government SHOULD DO, and positivism is about what government DOES DO.
If we ever talk about the concept of legitimacy, we must speak in the language of natural law. Because without that, there is no foundation for saying that a person is equal. And without the idea that people are equal, there is no foundation for the concept that they have any rights. There is no foundation for human rights in positivism.
Can one talk seriously about the "law of the jungle" as in, taking the idea that a jungle has something we would call "law" seriously? I don't think so. Because when it comes to whether something is a "law" there is an issue of "legitimacy."
I think that positivism is "out of bounds" and "off the wall" when it comes to the American legal system, which is historically built on a natural law foundation and where we are constantly discussing rights as if they matter and are real.
That you embrace natural law does not mean you embrace judicial gap-filling based on the moral values of judges alone. After all, if you believe that everyone is equal, then judges are no better.
Maybe you think that there is room for a conversation between judges and legislatures though. For example, legislatures make laws, but do not fully anticipate the direct impact on people. Judges exist in one of the space where law most directly impacts people, because they issue orders with coercive effect and their orders can have an immediate impact. So, there is definitely real value, in my mind, about feedback loops and such.
"If you reject the idea of natural law, then the state can do anything."
What is this "state" thing you talk about?
Is it an extraterrestrial entity that flew into town?
Is it a pre-Big Bang thing that has always existed?
For the US, was it sitting behind the native Americans when the Jamestown settlers arrived?
This supposedly nonexistent concept is mentioned in the Constitution.
The Constitution mentions "foreign States," "any King, Prince, or foreign State," and "Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State" - so a state is also something foreigners have
"the United States" designates a *union* of states, who act together as one in many instances, such as foreign relations, etc.
The state is the group of people that is "recognized" as "legitimately" making the rules that individuals generally fear to break due to the coercion that they will experience if they do so.
The rule of law implies that this group of people must be subject to the very same laws they make. And in turn, the rule of law is implied based on a commitment to equality.
Some judges attain their position through relevant qualifications (sadly, some through irrelevant "qualifications"). Sure, no basis for anyone to go around lording credentials and expertise over others who are perfectly equal. Participation trophies for everyone!
I don’t think mere positions or jobs make people “better” in the sense that is relevant to the way I am talking.
I think it is interesting that you deride participation trophies, as if other trophies are somehow “real.” But let’s take an Olympic gold medal for, I don’t know, archery. Is that really “real” or have humans just arbitrarily decided to reward that kind of trophy for the task of shooting an arrow at a target.
Like, there are trophy stores. You can literally create a trophy for anything you want. I am OK if someone really wants to win a gold medal in archery. But that doesn’t mean I have to consider the effort they put into that as optimal, much less some sort of basis for claiming a sort of nobility.
I especially think the idea that a political office is “noble” is out of bounds. A judge is a public servant.
Let me be clear, that I too am a skeptic of participation trophies. But I go further than that. I am skeptical of all trophies. The person that decides that X deserves a trophy rather than the person doing X may be the one exercising the real influence. If you are out there chasing a trophy, you are chasing a goal created by someone else for you to follow. That isn’t so bad, I suppose. In the Olympics, you get to choose the sport you want to compete in. And obviously, you don’t even get to compete unless you win a spot. And the process I am sure can be enriching (as can so many other things in life). But still, you are working towards an accomplishment that is not only arbitrary, but whose parameters were chosen by someone else. I am not AGAINST running around and trying to get a trophy. And I am as impressed as anyone by say, gymnastics or whatever. I do still think it is kind of strange to chase an arbitrary goal created by someone else. It is worth thinking about.
On the other hand, I shrug my shoulders. Whatever makes you happy, do it.
If everybody is equal, they all get the same (participation) trophy; there would be no other kind of trophy. The trophy is just a metaphor.
If I want something done, I prefer that it be done well, and if I can't do it well myself, I go to someone who I believe is qualified. Generally, there are mechanisms by which qualification is enforced; demonstrating competence, checks and balances, regulation, etc.
You are talking about occupations, and confusing skill in an occupation with equality. That isn’t what I am talking about and that isn’t what is being discussed when talking about equality from a natural law perspective.
Look, I am nearly certain I am better than you at the original super mario bros. It doesn’t translate into a more general sort of superiority.
Yeah, if I am hiring someone for an important job, I am going to consider a combination of my perception of skill and price and choose accordingly. That isn’t the sort of equality that is being discussed.
Also, think about it. It is rather OBVIOUS that people are not equally skilled in their occupations.
An OBVIOUS thing that you disregarded when you said judges are no better than anyone else. Judges are (ideally) chosen from those who are better at judging. Like doctors, we have second opinions (appeals, legislative action) and other processes to limit the damage from those who turn out to be poorly chosen. But I am glad you've backed off from your original rather dumb statement.
I am talking about natural law equality here. In that sense, they are no better than anyone else. HOWEVER, compared to legislators, they see on a day to day basis how the law is working out in practice. So they have a valuable perspective.
One does not need a general claim to superiority to have a perspective that ought to be considered.
I didn’t back off anything. You were assuming that I was asserting something that was not only wrong, but obviously wrong. So, the original mistake was yours.
No, sorry, your original statement was wrong.
No sorry, your original interpretation was unreasonable. Practically insane, really.
Like, your interpretation’s correctness literally depends on me assuming that all carpenters are equally skilled at carpentry.
That is a dumb thing for you to assume that I was talking about.
Perfectly reasonable reading. Sorry you expressed yourself so badly, but good job walking it back.
Perfectly unreasonable reading as it assumes that I must be from Mars.
No reasonable person could believe that all people are equally skilled at performing tasks. From the earliest days of school, we see obvious performance differences in the classroom and playground.
For you to assume a position which would require a person to deny such obvious differences would be unreasonable. Your premise about meaning probably shouldn’t start with “maybe this person is from Mars.”
And yet you asserted that anybody would be equal to judges at judging. I commented because you said something that unreasonable.
Magister,
I was commenting on gap-filling based on moral values. On that issue, I don’t think judges have greater expertise, although they do have a valuable perspective. I therefore am in favor of a somewhat dialogic approach between the judiciary and the legislature. I also think judges have to enforce constitutions whether they have better moral values or not.
Judges are good (or not) at their jobs based on a combination of their talent, education, and experience. Anyway, you clearly did not understand what I was talking about. Which is fine, but your assumption I meant something highly implausible and wrong wasn’t the best choice on your part.
You've wasted a lot of words when you could have simply corrected your original misstatement rather than persistently misunderstanding my statement. After all, if everyone is equal, then judges would be as good as anyone at moral values. If your intent was that a single judge would potentially be a point of failure, then you ignore the substantial mechanisms for correcting them.
Profs. Vermeule and Volokh have performed a valuable service during recent years: Better law schools will no longer consider a movement conservative for a faculty position, shrug, and figure 'How bad could it get?'
We have either reached or just passed peak clinger at America's strongest law schools.
(Don't worry, Federalist Society members who would like to teach stale, ugly conservative thinking to law students: You'll always have Regent, Ave Maria, Brigham Young, Liberty, and South Texas College of Law Houston.)
So, you prefer liberal thinking over conservative thinking because conservative thinking is ugly?
Tell me more. I am genuinely interested.
Bigotry is ugly, for starters. The sickening conservative thinking that inclines someone to ride around with a Confederate flag and hurl racial slurs at Blacks is ugly, for example. So is the disgusting conservative thinking that causes someone to fire a person for being gay or to deny woman a job merely because she is a woman. And the revolting conservative thinking that places chanting antisemites in formation at a rally against modernity and decency.
Feel free to try to persuade modern America that the thinking of right-wing racists, gay-bashers, antisemites, and misogynists is not ugly.
So, ugly usually refers to something that is unpleasant to look at. As such, it connotes a superficial judgment.
Regarding a Confederate flag, I would think you would be smart enough to know that you would have to talk to a particular person who displayed that flag to understand what it meant to them. You know instead of relying on stereotypes.
As far as the N word goes, I have heard its use a lot in rap. So, I guess context matters there too. You should be able to intelligently distinguish between how it is used by Eugene Volokh, how it is used by a scholar, how it is used in modern music, etc.
Your final point is about persuasion. But what I am trying to point out to you is that maybe your thinking is subject to the same intellectual criticisms. Ultimately, I believe that racism is a problem because it fails to see the individual. Instead it judges based on the superficial.
That is why I think your use of the word “ugly” is interesting. Because I want to know, are you actually thinking and seeing the world around you as it actually is, or are you dealing with mental constructs in your head that are the results of over generalization? Are you being superficial, or are you being deep???
David, though neither Democrat nor progressive, I understand the point. Conservative by temperament, I'll accept the proper noun, Liberal, as opposed to its antonym, the adjective, illiberal—because that's what Trump-led American conservatism has come to represent.
Old, white, male, born and raised in a fundamentalist Christian family in rural Idaho, career enlisted military (SMSgt ret., USAF), retired from a second career in IT Security, I should be a standard Republican. Instead, I'm an Independent who, regretfully, has been unable to vote for a national Republican since GHW Bush's reelection attempt. (I do look for reasons to vote for thoughtful, rational local Republicans when they manage to be nominated which, unfortunately, is happening less and less.)
But, as the R's increasing dependence on the votes of their racist/xenophobic wing became more and more obvious, voting for a national R became impossible. Also because of their accelerating attraction to theocratic authoritarianism and abandonment of evidence-based decision-making (the last perhaps a root cause of the first two, but all three truly ugly).
So, are you being disingenuous, or are you really "genuinely interested?" Tell me more. I am genuinely interested.
Purple:
Well, I think you are painting with a very broad brush.
Hmm… let’s consider xenophobia. You see on immigrant commit a crime, so all immigrants are dangerous. Something like that.
I see a similar process of thinking in your comments. It is nearly as though you partially inhabit the sort of reasoning you claim to despise. Painting with a very broad brush there.
Kind of like Clinton and her “basket of deplorables” or whatever nonsense she said.
Isn’t the problem with xenophobia that we shouldn’t paint with a broad brush? If not, what is the problem? And if painting with a broad brush is the problem aren’t you doing so now???
Please David, don't be so intentionally simple-minded. Through much of the 20th century, the scapegoats of Leftist populism were the privileged elites of Washington and Big Business, and racial minorities or immigrants. Latter 20th century Hard Right populism retained those, while adding fear of socialism, and envy/disdain of academic and scientific elites.
Intentional amplification of racist/xenophobic fears of being numerically overwhelmed by some alien other (Great Replacement Theory, still pushed today) increased both that and scapegoating for problems that would exist with or without them.
That was becoming obvious decades ago, starting with Nixon's Southern Strategy: Recruit the southern racists to leave the D's and join the R's. It extended through the decades as Dixiecrats-at-heart did just that, and was complete well before Trump ever ran for office. All Trump did was to banish shame and let his 20-30% of the GOP base come out openly as the unashamed White Nationalists they already were.
I grew up with them and was always aware of what I thought were probably 10%-15% of the conservatives I knew. But Trump proved it was more than I thought possible—20%-40%—and there's a reasonable argument that they are within hailing distance of the 50% H. Clinton correctly described as deplorable.
It's taken a while but, under Trump, the R's completed their decades-long evolution from the "three-legged stool" (Business, Social, and National Security conservatives) to today's internet-enabled, bouncing, erratic, social conservative pogo-stick of unreasoned mob-based populism.
So, to your point, it's not expressly the xenophobia, but far more R leadership's, first, increasing acceptance of, then absolute dependence on, and finally their resultant catering to, a racist/xenophobic base. (You're smart enough to understand that's a very different thing—why did you pretend not to?)
Whether 20% or 50%, the GOP can't win without them. They are not going to change, so GOP leaders willfully blind themselves to that and accept the deal. Until the GOP feels they can be elected without them, the GOP won't change either.
You didn't mention my other two deal-breakers but I think we could work together on them:
2. A demonstrated and increasing rejection of science- and related evidence-based decision-making.
3. An unfortunate attraction to autocratic authoritarians, especially of the theocratic variety.
Addressing #3 might go far in helping to solve #1 and #2—but as long as #1 (both the racism and xenophobia parts) remains a critical foundation of Republican but not Democratic party power, I might join a conservative party...but not the GOP.
Correctly described as deplorable?
Yeah, you guys are just as bad as the people you are supposedly against.
Sorry dude, I am not buying you as a self-righteous savior figure.
There are a lot of people who like Trump and it has nothing to do with racism or whatever.
By the way, xenophobia is not more bad than arachnophobia. If someone is AFRAID of something, then we should examine it in a rational way. But you prefer an emotional way.
Like, these people are the new EVIL and you are the new GOOD. It just good versus evil again. I think that this sort of dichotomy with respect to Americans, where we are trying to label people based on their opinions or even their ignorance, just isn’t interesting, isn’t useful, and it isn’t effective.
Another thing, I think we should DEBATE the right levels of immigration without calling people who want less of it xenophobic. Like, people can legitimately have different views on this topic.
The idea of being numerically overwhelmed is completely legitimate, by the way. Like, if you had a bunch of immigration from people with illiberal values and they never assimilated and they pushed a bunch of illiberal constitutional amendments, that actually would be concerning.
Also, you see how liberals love to try to “overcome” basic values like freedom of speech or the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bare arms. I don’t know if they can achieve these illiberal goals by persuading their fellow citizens, but they think maybe they can get there through immigration.
To the extent our country is going to embrace “identity politics” as the left has been pushing us to do instead of pushing for universal equality like it used to, I think concerns about making identity grievance groups ever larger is a legitimate concern.
Like, you want to boil everything down to xenophobia because maybe you think you can get your way or not have to address legitimate concerns through name-calling. Well, I don’t think that is cool. I don’t actually think you are morally better than everyone who has a different opinion either. There is a certain off-putting self-righteousness some people on the left exude. Like, Kirkland calling himself “Reverend” kind of fits his self-righteous schtick.
Look, I am big into equality. If you start calling people deplorables, I am going to dislike you, not the people you criticize. Because to me, you are putting yourself above other people.
I also think your talk about elites, in a perfectly sincere way, is annoying. Scientific and academic elites? Meh. Not feeling it. I don’t like the word elite.
Your palpable jealousy over the fact that Prof. Volokh is respected and you are not is kind of pathetic.
He might be jealous or he might not be. But even if he were jealous, that wouldn’t mean he is wrong.
I am not defending Kirkland. But I think that even if he was jealous, that wouldn’t invalidate any criticism he might make. In general, humans have all sorts of emotions or whatever l, justified or unjustified. Merely identifying an emotion that might motivate an argument does not tell us whether it is right or wrong.
If someone says 1 + 1 = 2 out of jealousy, well, 1 + 1 still really is 2.
I don’t think Kirkland is correct. Mostly, I think he is confused. But this line of argument about jealousy isn’t valid either.
Kirkland is not confused. He's a troll. He's desperate for attention, little different than Drackman except with better spelling.
Why is he desperate for attention? Was he neglected as a child?
I think you can get attention without Kirkland's shenanigans. It isn't hard to get attention. Go for a walk. Got into a bar. And strike up a conversation.
I guess some people are insatiable, though.
You are probably right about Kirkland. He probably is a troll.
As far as your point about bad spelling... well... I mean... *hides*
Respected by whom? The Federalist Society? Bigots who snicker at racial slurs? The dean of UCLA’s law school?
Your first sentence is a good response. Then you have to ruin it with the next three.
natural law does exist. Steal from a thief and see if he gives you a pass.
and common good was invoked by Stalin, Hitler, and Mao.
I think you miss who the audience is that you are addressing:
The great Catholic philosopher-convert and opponent of the Nazis was shockingly honest about what is wrong with you:
""Von Hildebrand recounts many stories of academic conferences with Franciscan priests and philosophy professors who “overemphasized the notion of community at the expense of the individual.” Because they were “infected by this collectivistic tendency,” they advocated ideas that deny the fundamental dignity of the human person. These ideas paved the philosophic path for collectivism and, in turn, a justification of anti-Semitism. The small concessions became large compromises. The philosophical rhetoric became physical reality. Eventually, the actions that flowed from the collectivism espoused at these conferences justified sending truckloads of Jews to the gas chambers. It all began with an idea, for which many lived and millions died.""
In your focus on a boogie monster (collectivism) I think you miss the point of the OP (as does Adrian Vermeule of course, purposefully). Hmmm, I think this might provide a better context around the role of religion in preventing societal decay:
I was astonished to hear on the radio that 30% of Americans are nuns; there aren't that many Catholics! But it turns out it was "nones", people who have no religion. The increase in "nones" has occurred in the same period as declining crime rates. My impression is that most of our social ills stem from religious extremists fighting against their own decline.
So that's why Target is closing some of its stores.
That doesn't follow from what I wrote unless you think Target store closings (last I heard, 8 out of over 1900) are the majority of our social ills.
And the national debt?
Not actually a social ill, exacerbated to a large degree by the political power of hypocritical evangelicals, but listing things one at a time is going to take a long time to get to a majority.
How do hypocritical evangelicals exacerbate the national debt by fighting against their own decline?
And which evangelicals are you referring to?
“The evangelical left…affirms conservative evangelical theology, such as the doctrines of the incarnation, atonement, and resurrection, traditional view on marriage and see the Bible as the primary authority for the Church. Unlike other evangelicals, however, those on the evangelical left often support and utilize modern biblical exegesis. They often support a more progressive political platform and are concerned about issues of social justice. Many, for example, are opposed to capital punishment and are supportive of gun control, welfare programs and welcoming foreigners. In many cases, they are also pacifists.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_left
White evangelicals voted in large numbers for Donald Trump in contradiction of their claimed values; that's hypocrisy. They've voted since 1980 for Republicans who regularly enact tax cuts for the rich; that's exacerbated the national debt, even ignoring the other economic damage Republicans have done.
Are they motivated by their decline? Yes:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/opinion/religious-right-america.html
Well, since you’ve explained about the need to restrict ballot access for third parties, I suppose the white evangelicals face a binary choice between Democrats who simply hate them and Republicans who hate them but not as much as Democrats do.
The Constitution Party would be more in line with their values, but wouldn’t you know, the Constitution Party isn’t on the ballot in all states, thanks to policies you won't condemn.
With third parties off the table, what should white evangelicals do in order to meet your moral standards?
You are weirdly obsessed with ballot access for third parties, which wouldn't even address your complaint that
If the evangelical right supported a third party, that party would be able to get on ballots all over. They could have gotten behind one of the Republican candidates who affirmed their values, but instead they worshiped the golden idol of Trump.
At least I provide some relief from the “But Biden”/”But Trump” kabuki which seems to obsess you and so many other commenters.
I have the radical idea that the place to measure popular support is at the ballot box. I’m quite the extremist that way. Election misinformation – arbitrarily withholding information from the voter at the polls about available options; and vote suppression – actually throwing away and refusing to count votes for alternate candidates – are not tactics worthy of a republic which respects political rights.
If, with fair ballot access and runoff elections (including instant runoffs), evangelicals still give their first vote to Trump, it will be time enough to say they’re idol-worshipping hypocritical poopyheads, etc. But you can’t limit voter choices and simultaneously bemoan the quality of the choices which remain.
"If the evangelical right supported a third party, that party would be able to get on ballots all over."
If a serious Presidential candidate could get on the ballot in all states and still have money left over to wage a serious campaign, your allies would conclude that ballot access wasn't restricted *enough.* There's a reason that it took a billionaire (Perot) to wage a significant third-party challenge.
And, still limiting myself to Presidential candidates (the problem repeats itself in some form in “lower-level” races):
If you’re not a billionaire, it helps to be a *de facto* governor (Wallace) who can divert state resources into his campaign courtesy of his state’s taxpayers
These are the third-party candidates who rise to the top under *your* system – a nutty billionaire and a segregationist de facto governor.
The belief that the first place to measure popular support is at the ballot box would make elections unworkable.
What a curious statement.
What good does it do for a new party to first appear on the ballot? They must at the very least communicate why anyone should vote for them, unless you intend for each party to put its entire platform on the ballot as well. If they've done that (and have any appeal to even a small number of voters), they can meet the requirements to be on the ballot.
The problem is all those superstitious colored people, right, prof. Zuckerman?