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Opinions Related to Michigan Supreme Court's Pronouns Order
I thought I'd pass along excerpts from the opinions concurring and dissenting as to the Michigan Supreme Court's pronouns order; recall that the order itself provides:
Parties and attorneys may also include Ms., Mr., or Mx. as a preferred form of address and one of the following personal pronouns in the name section of the caption: he/him/his, she/her/hers, or they/them/theirs. Courts must use the individual's name, the designated salutation or personal pronouns, or other respectful means that is not inconsistent with the individual's designated salutation or personal pronouns when addressing, referring to, or identifying the party or attorney, either orally or in writing.
Here is an excerpt from the concurrence by Justice Welch, joined by Justice Bolden:
… "[P]ublic confidence is the only currency that courts and judges have, and impartiality is central to public confidence." … I believe amending MCR 1.109(D) is a positive step forward that will bolster public confidence in the judiciary and help to promote a sense of fairness among members of the public who interact with the courts.
Our courts and court staff must conduct business in a way that is cognizant of changes in language and societal norms. The amendments to MCR 1.109(D) reflect that basic truth and acknowledge that with changes in our society, our vocabulary also evolves. In order to be fair and impartial, courts, as the face of the third branch of government, must conduct business in a way that does not give the appearance of misgendering individuals, intentionally or otherwise. A primary goal of this change is to ensure that the judiciary operates in a manner that is objectively respectful of the individual identity and personal pronouns of the members of the public that we serve, regardless of the subjective viewpoints of individuals working within the court system. I agree with Justice Bolden that the MCR 1.109 amendments are not a landmark change given the long-existing requirement that all judges must treat those before them respectfully.
It was not that long ago that many judges would not permit a female attorney to use the salutation "Ms." instead of the unmarried "Miss" or married "Mrs." The salutation was the subject of much debate, which today has largely been forgotten. Later generations of attorneys would likely be confounded by the notion that women in court had to use a salutation that indicated marital status while men faced no such requirement. Society has, thankfully, long moved past that debate. Judges no longer have to know the marital status of female attorneys appearing before them in order to professionally address them in court. Today, requiring the use of "Miss" or "Mrs." in court would be not just antiquated, but also disrespectful and discriminatory. Extending the use of gender neutral or personally specified pronouns to litigants or parties reflects another societal shift. It also aligns with the Legislature's recent amendment of the Elliott-Larsen Civil Rights Act, MCL 37.2101 et seq., to explicitly prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.
It is not a secret that the notion of honoring a person's specified pronouns has become a source of much debate. The judiciary has certainly not been immune to this, as evidenced by extensive comments submitted and testimony offered at the public hearing in response to the proposed rule change. The objections tend to be three-fold: (1) grammatical confusion, (2) record confusion, and (3) personal beliefs.
The first objection is that the use of the pronoun "they" for a nonbinary individual is grammatically confusing when referring to one person. Admittedly, this is a societal shift, but it is not one without history…. "[L]exicographers and the authors of English style guides have long changed practices to reflect the evolution of the English lexicon." While a shift may require more intentionality (and a bit of practice) for generations that grew up learning one language rule, the next generation shifts quickly and with ease. In fact, society has used "they" as a singular pronoun since at least the 1300s, and only shifted to the masculine "he" preference more recently.
Historically speaking, prominent authors, like William Shakespeare and Jane Austen, have used gender neutral pronouns in their writing. See, e.g., Shakespeare, The Rape of Lucrece (1594) ("Now leaden slumber with life's strength doth fight; And every one to rest themselves betake, Save thieves, and cares, and troubled minds, that wake."); Austen, Sense and Sensibility (Whitehall: T. Egerton, 1811), p 217 ("'Perhaps then you would bestow it as a reward on that person who wrote the ablest defence of your favorite maxim, that no one can ever be in love more than once in their life—for your opinion on that point is unchanged I presume?'")….
It is also worth noting that while the third-person pronoun "they" can refer either to one person or to a group of people, the human brain has the remarkable ability to understand the difference quickly. The second-person pronoun "you" likewise can refer to one person or many people, something that was also discussed in Professor Garner's National Review article. And yet writers—and their readers—skillfully navigate that distinction through context and without controversy. You can tell the difference if I am addressing you, the reader, or you, the public. While it may take some additional time for some to adjust to the change, society has navigated grammatical shifts many times through the centuries.
The second objection raised to the use of a person's specified pronouns in the judiciary is that a record will be confusing if underlying evidence identifies a party by one gender, but that person prefers a different pronoun in court proceedings. I noted in Gobrick that a footnote made it very clear in that case why the Court of Appeals majority used a gender-neutral pronoun in the opinion. Additionally, I noted that the use of gender-neutral pronouns was not a new concept….
Finally, people object to honoring a person's specified pronouns on the basis that they do not personally agree with the notion that someone can switch genders or be nonbinary. This was the subject of a great deal of the input we received after publishing the proposed amendments. Whether for religious or other reasons, many comments reflected a personal belief that gender could not change. But the rule provides that "other respectful means" can be used to address a party who makes a specific pronoun request. Certainly, asking our judges to be respectful to litigants using other general neutral means (such as addressing a party as "Attorney Smith" or "Plaintiff Smith") does not force anyone to violate their beliefs.
Judges are ultimately public servants. We serve the entire public and are required to treat those who come before us with civility and respect. The gender identity of a member of the public is a part of their individual identity, regardless of whether others agree or approve. Additionally, it is not always possible to know someone's personal pronouns based solely on visual observation, and allowing parties and attorneys to identify their personal pronouns for the courts removes ambiguity and the risk of misgendering an individual. This rule provides much needed guidance and provides courts with several options for how to respectfully address parties and attorneys who wish to designate a specific salutation or personal pronoun. The amendment of MCR 1.109(D) will help to promote and preserve the judiciary's credibility and currency with the public that we serve while also providing guidance to judges and court staff.
An excerpt from Justice Bolden's separate concurrence:
I fully agree with the Court in adopting this amendment. I write to demonstrate my support and mitigate potential concerns raised during the public comment process. To me, this amendment of MCR 1.109 is not landmark. Rather, it mirrors the expectations found in our judicial canons. The amendment seeks to spell out what the judicial canons require and provide an avenue for litigants and attorneys to ask to be acknowledged in a certain way and thus treated with dignity. It aims to prevent judges from discriminating based on gender identity. It ensures that judges respect people. Allowing individuals to include their personal pronouns in filings affords judges the opportunity to ensure those appearing before them receive the respect they deserve. The judicial canons already require treating every person with courtesy and respect without regard to a person's race, gender, or other personal protected characteristic. This amendment is merely a more detailed example of how judges must act to meet the requirements articulated in the canons, and it is in line with our antidiscrimination caselaw, statutes, and policies….
Some commenters have raised First Amendment concerns, arguing that the amendment compels speech and/or infringes upon religious liberty. However, Code of Judicial Conduct, Canon 2(A) and caselaw help to address these concerns. First, Canon 2(A) requires judges to "accept restrictions on conduct that might be viewed as burdensome by the ordinary citizen and [they] should do so freely and willingly." Similarly, the United States Supreme Court has explained that government employees have certain limitations on their freedom that they must accept in the workplace. Judges, of course, are employed by the government, and when they are on the bench, they are not working in their individual capacity….
{This amendment does not require judges to use a pronoun. Courts may still refer to litigants by last name or by a party designation, such as "plaintiff" or "defendant." Likewise, courts may still refer to attorneys by last name or another title like "counselor." What this amendment does is require judges who are provided with pronouns identified by a party or attorney to refrain from using nondesignated pronouns when using pronouns to refer to those individuals during legal proceedings.}
An excerpt from the dissent by Justice Zahra, joined by Justice Viviano:
… As the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit noted, "the use of gender-specific titles and pronouns has produced a passionate political and social debate." The hundreds of comments both supporting and opposing this proposed rule attest to this division. Some believe that the use of preferred pronouns is simply a matter of courtesy and that those who oppose it are stubborn, perhaps even bigoted. Others, however, believe they should not be compelled, especially under oath and/or in conflict with their deeply held religious beliefs, to affirm a person's preferred pronouns that are inconsistent with the biological gender on that person's birth certificate.
All told, this is a fluid political debate into which our judicial branch of state government should not wade, let alone dive headfirst and claim to have resolved. Such hubris has no place within the operation of a judicial branch of state government. As aptly stated by the Catholic Lawyers Society of Metropolitan Detroit, "[t]he Court should decline to insert itself into one of the most controversial social issues of our time, declare a winner, dismiss objections as mere products of bigotry, and threaten to punish dissenters whilst ignoring their constitutional rights." I am deeply troubled by the Court's willingness to do so.
To the extent this Court is merely attempting to ensure that all litigants are treated respectfully, this rule change is entirely unnecessary. Our Code of Judicial Conduct, Canon 2(B), provides that "a judge should treat every person fairly, with courtesy and respect." This is accomplished without the proposed rule. To the extent a litigant requests use of a pronoun inconsistent with the biological gender reflected on the litigant's birth certificate, courts should have the discretion to accommodate that request in deference to the litigant's wishes or, alternatively, refer to the litigant without using any pronouns. In this way, judges will not be required to act inconsistent with their religious beliefs, and every litigant will be treated with courtesy and respect.
Certainly, if a judge elects to reject the use of personal pronouns or the use of a gender-neutral method of identifying a litigant or lawyer, and instead uses pronouns inconsistent with those desired by the litigant simply to demean that litigant, such conduct would violate the Code of Judicial Conduct, Canon 2(B). But what if a judicial officer fails to use a preferred pronoun out of a sense of religious conviction? I have little doubt that this question will one day be resolved by the Supreme Court of the United States. Until that time, this Court should do everything in its power to avoid taking sides in this social debate.
This proposed rule change is much worse than a solution in search of a problem; it is a directive that will undoubtedly inflame conflict and exacerbate the social division of the people of Michigan. Let us not overlook the fact that it is decidedly rare for a litigant to request that a court use a preferred pronoun that is inconsistent with the biological gender reflected on the litigant's birth certificate. The first noted instance in our courts was in December 2021, when a Court of Appeals judge wrote a concurring opinion explaining why he would not abide by a criminal defendant's preference to be referred to by the pronouns "they" and "them." The concurring opinion was zealous, but not disrespectful. It simply defined this emerging issue to the Michigan judicial system. It is unprecedented for this Court to take such swift action in the face of such a novel and evolving issue. The swiftness with which the Court imposes this rule does not account for the actual problems that it is certain to create.
This court rule is an open invitation to abuse by litigants eager to gain any measure of control over their fight. It is all too common for litigants possessing a scorched-earth mentality to delay, distract, and inject confusion into legal proceedings. The goal is usually a mistrial or to harbor error for appellate review. This is no small matter. This situation is rendered all the more untenable by the absence of language providing courts with the authority and discretion to stifle bad-faith litigants. While the overwhelming majority of parties and lawyers in Michigan's courts act in good faith even when they strongly disagree with each other, courts routinely and, sadly, regularly encounter those who seek to misuse or abuse the judicial system, and a rule that denies trial courts the authority to control such actors is misconceived and imprudent. {Abuses of the system by lawyers and litigants are well documented. See, e.g., In the Interest of CG, 403 Wis 2d 229, 268-269 (2022) (discussing cases in which a party has sought to force courts to use a new name consisting of an obscenity or racial epithet); Giron v Chase Home Mtg Fin, LLC, unpublished opinion of the United States District Court for New Mexico, issued June 13, 2012 (Case No. 12-cv-033), nn 1 and 2 (discussing the grammatical gymnastics that "sovereign citizens" force courts to play with respect to names).}
Apparently to avoid violating the free-speech rights of private citizens, the above rule applies only to judges, and it does not compel the use of any preferred personal pronouns by the parties themselves, attorneys, witnesses, or others. If any private citizen refuses to acknowledge another's designated salutation or personal pronouns, the judge cannot compel them to do so. Still, "if a court were to compel the use of particular pronouns at the invitation of litigants, it could raise delicate questions about judicial impartiality." In some cases, "a court may have the most benign motives in honoring a party's request to be addressed with pronouns matching his 'deeply felt, inherent sense of [his] gender.'" "Yet in doing so, the court may unintentionally convey its tacit approval of the litigant's underlying legal position."
In some cases, the use of preferred pronouns might even be hurtful to another party. An example provided by comment mentioned a rape case involving a biological male defendant and a biological female victim. Under the rule, if the defendant asks the court to refer to the defendant using she/her pronouns, the court is required to do so, which could cause further trauma or embarrassment to the victim.
More pragmatically, unlike the rule proposed for comment, the rule that a majority of the Court adopts provides no basis for the judge to ensure a clear record under circumstances when a private citizen refuses to acknowledge another's preferred personal pronouns. The result would be a record littered with inconsistent usage of pronouns to identify the same person. At the least, there are far too many circumstances in which the rule will lead to unnecessary confusion at trial and on appellate review.
Further, there is a distinct likelihood that judges will accidentally and repeatedly use the wrong pronoun and be held accountable by the Judicial Tenure Commission. Indeed, even in the single noted case in which a litigant preferred to be referred to by the pronouns "they" and "them," "defendant's counsel frequently defaulted to 'he/him' during oral argument[.]" Suffice to say that if defense counsel in that case, someone who actually had a relationship with his client, repeatedly failed to identity his client by the proper salutation and personal pronouns, then we should expect that our judges will often violate the rule as well. The difference of course is that judges are subjected to far greater scrutiny and can be held accountable under this rule.
In sum, the rule adopted by a majority of the Court will create problems and will only cause confusion within our courts. The majority's good intentions on this matter will only impede the efficient administration of justice in our courts. Judges are already obligated to treat everyone with courtesy and respect.16 And judges can treat everyone with courtesy and respect by avoiding personal pronouns and referring to litigants and attorneys by court-appropriate designations, such as plaintiff [last name], defendant [last name], counselor [last name], witness [last name], etc. Courts already often engage in this practice particularly when writing in criminal cases with multiple defendants and civil cases with several parties. I trust that our judges will continue to treat all persons with courtesy and respect. I dissent from the promulgation of this court rule that unnecessarily compels judges to use a litigant's or attorney's preferred personal pronouns.
And an excerpt from Justice Viviano's separate dissent:
When the topic is political, as it is here, [reforms that impose one side's view] can only undermine the public's confidence in courts' ability to serve as impartial arbiters of the law. The old saying that "turnabout is fair play" should counsel caution. The membership of this Court changes, and majorities with different perspectives succeed one another. A majority with a different outlook might view the Court's present action as empowering them to implement rules that would be anathema to the present majority. Indeed, such a majority could seek to implement a rule contrary to that adopted today. What would stop it? This Court's repeated forays into such topics set a precedent for this Court to dabble in politics through our rulemaking authority. And all the arguments that the concurrences employ against the constitutional concerns with the present action could in turn be employed to support the opposite rule. I have my doubts that the majority would be so cavalier about the First Amendment implications of their actions if the shoe was on the other foot.
This is not, of course, an attempt to take sides in the social and political debate that the majority wades into or to advocate for the opposite rule—quite to the contrary. My purpose is to demonstrate the foolishness of judges taking any stance on this or any other contentious political topic, especially when doing so is unnecessary. This administrative matter arose as a result of a single episode: Judge Boonstra's separate opinion discussing this topic, with which a majority of the Court of Appeals panel disagreed. Moreover, as Justice Zahra explains, our ethical rules already require that judges treat parties with respect. Code of Judicial Conduct, Canon 2(B). There has been no indication that this rule is insufficient to address any relevant concerns in a neutral manner.
Justice Welch believes today's action is necessary to instill public confidence in the courts by reflecting "societal shift[s]." Respectfully, I disagree on how courts acquire and maintain the public's trust. I certainly do not believe that it is by our ability to detect and measure public sentiment. For one thing, we do not have the training or institutional capacity to study and correctly interpret the necessary data. More importantly, although we are elected by the people, our duty in adjudicating disputes and overseeing the courts is not to provide the particular results that certain people or groups might desire on policy issues. Rather, we are elected to faithfully interpret and enforce the laws and regulations adopted by the policymaking branches, so far as they are consistent with the Constitution….
Only in this way, through the impartial adjudication of cases and administration of the courts, can we earn the confidence of the public and be worthy of that confidence. When courts dabble in politics, they invariably alienate the losing side of the political debate and forfeit legitimacy with large portions of the public. By once again taking stances in a political debate, the Court will not earn the public's trust, nor should it. Rather than instilling confidence, the result, I fear, will be to encourage the view that this Court is a political institution. If this view becomes entrenched, both sides may seek to use the judicial power to advance their own political ends. And all that will matter in adjudicating cases and administering the courts is the achievement of "politically desirable results[.]" This would be a tragic result for the rule of law and the people of Michigan….
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“Moreover, as Justice Zahra explains, our ethical rules already require that judges treat parties with respect. Code of Judicial Conduct, Canon 2(B). There has been no indication that this rule is insufficient to address any relevant concerns in a neutral manner.”
But see ….
“The first noted instance in our courts was in December 2021, when a Court of Appeals judge wrote a concurring opinion explaining why he would not abide by a criminal defendant’s preference to be referred to by the pronouns ‘they’ and ‘them.'”
So, it’s not a big deal, because it’s already handled … except it isn’t because there are judges (as we’ve seen) that are already not respecting the parties before them. In fact, we’ve already had judges go out of their way to “Judge-splain” in a written opinion why they weren’t going to respect the litigants in an action before them.
Cool story, bruh.
I'm going to guess that you wouldn't declare it disrespectful for a judge to fail to address me as "Your Majesty" simply because that's my preference (and even if it's backed by my fervent belief that I do indeed have royalty in my lineage).
Put differently, if respect is now entirely a subjective measure and I'm the final arbiter of whether it was or was not granted to me in any given circumstance, we're headed for rocky societal waters. Oh, hang on....
Change your name by deed poll, see if that works.
I seem to recall a case in which a court referred to a litigant as Michael Diamond rather than by his chosen name, Mike D.
There are many cases where a party demanded to be referred to with the correct capitalization of his name. His name. I have not observed this behavior in people using other pronouns.
Tax protester? "Natural Born" Citizen?
There we go - "My name is John Smith, not JOHN SMITH."
Way back in a saner world -- 1976 -- the State of Maine ruled that Jimmy Carter could run as James E. Carter or James Earl Carter but not as Jimmy Carter on the ballot. It was a Democrat who did that.
Arent there sanctions for lying in court?
Isnt addressing someone as something they are not a form of lying?
If there were "sanctions" for addressing someone as something they are not, I would get "sanctioned" roughly half the time I stated in court that the opposing counsel was "My esteemed colleague ..."
There was a federal case in Nebraska (don't remember the details but it was about ten years ago and is findable on Pacer) in which a religious nutter filed a pro se case against "the homosexuals". She identified herself as an ambassador of Jesus Christ.
In his order dismissing the case as frivolous, the judge politely referred to her as "the ambassador."
This looks like your case here -- it has all the earmarks you mentioned and is the same one that drew "ambassador of Christ" headlines everywhere when it was filed.
But in the actual opinion as I read it, the judge simply and conventionally referred to her as "the plaintiff" each and every time, and in fact the word "ambassador" does not appear in the opinion at all. Am I missing something?
My mistake. My memory was that the court referred to her as "ambassador" but I may have mixed it up with something else.
Come on, that was Too Good To Check, spoilsport.
Yeah, sorry. I just don't know when to let a pitch-perfect urban myth lie.
Just answer the oath by saying "no".
Donald Trump's lawyers routinely refer to him in court filings as "President Trump" even though there is no such person.
Donald Trump’s lawyers routinely refer to him in court filings as “President Trump” even though there is no such person.
Of course you know that it has been common practice to refer to former presidents as "President (Surname)" for quite some time now...just not as "Mr. President" or "The President". This is sometimes done even by courts. For example, in her 2012 decision in Judicial Watch v National Archives District Judge Amy Berman Jackson repeatedly (though not exclusively) refers to then former President Clinton as simply "President Clinton".
Don't let the leftists control any aspect of your lives. Don't give them a single inch. You will be forced under pain of law to repeat and be an active participant in all of their psychoses: women can become men, men can get pregnant, "they're not pedophiles their Minor Attracted Persons", 2+2=5, etc. The words you speak belong to you and nobody else.
"they’re not pedophiles their Minor Attracted Persons"
This, of course, being how the GOP defended Roy Moore and the Duggars rather than something left-wingers have used.
I seem to recall that the Duggans, and Moore, got their comeuppance in various ways.
Can you point to where that was done?
very few repubulicans defended moore. I certainly did not.
Oh the comments on here were filled with defenders.
'Better than a Dem'
'This looks like a smear I don't believe it'
'That doesn't count as underage'
'Age of consent laws are tyranny'
'Actually, it's technically ephebophilia'
...and don't forget, Ten? I swear I thought she was Thirteen!
'That's *almost* the age of consent in this state!'
I had problems with the purported "facts" -- next to the dumpster is the BUSIEST place in a restaurant at closing time.
This sate of heightened hallunicantory terror over effectively fuck-all is characteristic.
Can you imagine any of this happening just 30-35 years ago?
Have we all gone insane???
HAVE WE ALL GONE INSANE?!?!?
The dissent seems to have the better argument here, with Zahra's dissent being the most compelling on the page.
No, it isn't. It's quite literally a stupid parade of horribles. I can't tell which are worse- the outright lies, or the invocation or tired and polemic tropes used to signal those of like minds. But here, let's try two and you tell me!
1. "More pragmatically, unlike the rule proposed for comment, the rule that a majority of the Court adopts provides no basis for the judge to ensure a clear record under circumstances when a private citizen refuses to acknowledge another's preferred personal pronouns. The result would be a record littered with inconsistent usage of pronouns to identify the same person. At the least, there are far too many circumstances in which the rule will lead to unnecessary confusion at trial and on appellate review."
So ... this rule will create a muddled record if one of the private litigants refuses to use the correct term. But ... the record will still be muddled because (wait for it) ... OTHER LITIGANTS AND WITNESSES ARE USING THE CORRECT TERM, and so will the counsel. So this is just a blatant lie. The issue will be same, regardless. This is only about what the judge does.
"In some cases, the use of preferred pronouns might even be hurtful to another party. An example provided by comment mentioned a rape case involving a biological male defendant and a biological female victim. Under the rule, if the defendant asks the court to refer to the defendant using she/her pronouns, the court is required to do so, which could cause further trauma or embarrassment to the victim."
Oh yes, the whole, "A man raped a woman, and then demands to be called 'she,' because that's so common. Bet it happened in a bathroom!!!11!!!!"
Ugh. But it's the same old rinse and repeat. Vacillitating between, "There's no problem, judges are already supposed to treat people with respect," and, "HOW DARE WE DO THIS BECAUSE OF ALL THE TERRIBLE NO GOOD THINGS THAT MIGHT HAPPEN THAT I CAN IMAGINE WHILE HIDING UNDER MY BEDCOVERS!!"
My understanding is that the historical use of singular they were for cases where gender was unknown because the identity of the person referred to was unknown. It was not used historically for cases where they were referring to a specific person whose identity was known.
The use of singular they for trans/non-binary individuals does not fit the historical usage.
It comes from the Latin, where there are three cases for everything, masculine, feminine, and neuter. A good example of this is Spanish where *everything* is either masculine or feminine -- trains are masculine (el tren) and houses are feminine (la casa).
In English, *animate* (living) objects are masculine and inanimate objects are feminine. Hence it's "man overboard" and the massive ship is "she" or "her" -- and those who demand to be multiple parties are schizophrenic.
"In English, *animate* (living) objects are masculine and inanimate objects are feminine."
You know, Dr. Ed, every single time I think you can't post something that is even wronger ... you out-do yourself.
Congratulations?
"We like our cow, Bessie. He gives us fresh milk."
"My car needs his oil changed."
My bad, I presumed rational judgement -- animate objects of undetermined gender or of no gender. And while car in Spanish is masculine, in English it's feminine, much as ships are.
What? When in doubt, Ed digs deeper.
Let's start with the basics. In English, the language Ed is assuredly unfamiliar with, inaminate objects have NO GENDER. They are an "it." It is a boulder. It is a house. It is a plane. It is a ship.
However, there are some occasions when individual people will refer to their possessions or certain objects with a gender; this is not by rule, but just as a sign of affection. So some people will refer to "their" boats (either through ownership, or because they are the captain, or because they've heard others do it) as, for example, a feminine object. Why? Because in the past, when all shipowners and captains were men, that sense of ... yes, affection and love ... made sense. However, it's not a rule. If you talk to people today, you will often here people (including, um, women) refer to their object using the masculine form because ... it's not a rule. It's a colloquial way of expressing affection.
Thus endeth the stupidest digression ever.
bernard,
Shame on you.
My car needs her oil changed.
I know there's an awful lot of confusion these days over gender, but it's hard to adequately picture the hilarity that would ensue if you were to try to milk a bull. Though I guess you could choose to call it "milk," that's... not exactly what comes out of that faucet.
Not to interrupt your cherry-picked lampoonery, but I think you unintentionally landed on the real point here. When everyone else in the courtroom is free to do whatevs, it is utterly ridiculous that the judge -- the person running the courtroom -- is hogtied by this order and has no such choice. That's indefensible and nonsensical no matter how much you pound the table.
Well, yes -- perhaps even a bathroom in a prison.
We got mockery like this for years, assuring us that such horror stories were simply made up to persecute the poor lil' transgenders and keeping them from just being able to pee in peace. You now seem determined to just continue to bluster and bully your way through the issue, regardless of reality. That's unfortunate.
Well, one of many slogans in the sixties was "reality is a crutch".
Well, I'm no expert, but I thought the full expression was "reality is a crutch for those who can't handle drugs."
That version sounds more Sixties-ish to me.
'We got mockery like this for years,'
And you will continue to get it. One incident in a prison. Please don't look into rates of sexaul asaults in prisons, I'm not sure you're ready for them.
Right, trollio. And the next one I bring would be "just one," the next one, and so on. Eventually you could duck back to something more tedious like "the plurality of anecdote is not data" or similar crap.
And therefore, no problemo!
Yes, one might come along every now and then for you to wave like a red flag, while ignoring all the other sexual assaults in prisons and in toilets not committed by trans people.
Huh. It almost sounds like you're saying that because men in prisons rape other men, it's totes no worries to let them mingle with and rape women too! Only fair, amirite?
I'm holding out hope that despite equal-opportunity sociopaths like you, chivalry is indeed not quite dead.
I'm sure it has to sound like that to you, because if it doesn't you don't really have an argument, eh? You may find it shocking, but women sexually assault other women in prison, too. Trans women don't really represent any more of an apreciable risk than other women. If anything they're more at risk of being targeted in either type of prison.
You can arrange the real and pretended genders any way you want, but at bottom you're still saying "hey, it happens already, so why are you worried that we're arranging things in a way that will allow it to happen more?" Again, sociopathic.
You're assuming a causality I don't think you can.
Causality like, if we put men and women together in the same prison, more men will rape more women than if we keep them separated? That seems pretty uncomplicated to me, probably since I'm not bending head over heels looking for complications.
It happened once, the person was punished. Should everyone who belongs to a particular class of people be banned from toilets because another member of that class assaulted someone in a toilet? You'd end up banning men from men's toilets and women from women's toilets if you did that. Or is it only notallmen when it's men who do the assaulting?
'more men will rape more women'
To be clear we're talking about a trans woman here. May I ask why it is only this particular case of prison sexual assault that vexes you and not all the others?
"“In some cases, the use of preferred pronouns might even be hurtful to another party. An example provided by comment mentioned a rape case involving a biological male defendant and a biological female victim. Under the rule, if the defendant asks the court to refer to the defendant using she/her pronouns, the court is required to do so, which could cause further trauma or embarrassment to the victim.”
You are, I presume, a competent attorney with trial experience.
While it *might* be an ethics violation for defense counsel to suggest this as a tactic (I'm not even sure of that anymore) but would you discourage a defendant from adopting this tactic?
"I didn't rape her, I'm female..."
Exactly what ethical rule would preclude a defense attorney from permitting the client to say that -- or, more importantly, to imply that by demanding to be addressed as female (and wearing a dress, etc).
Don't most lawyers play to win?
Being female doesn't preclude anyone from being a rapist.
What did you find compelling?
"Public confidence in the judicial system" is too often a smoke screen, deliberate or not, for inserting social codes into the court. The ABA tried to do it with rule 8.4(g).
This rule is best justified by decorum and the need to keep things focused on the issues and not the sex or "identity" of people before the court, which is almost always irrelevant. But, like the dissent says, it's ultimately unnecessary because judges can be respectful without getting into special pronouns and titles anyway.
"“Public confidence in the judicial system” is too often a smoke screen, deliberate or not, for inserting social codes into the court."
Exactly, these stunts in fact reduce conservative "confidence in the judicial system". Personally, my "confidence" is zero already but some on the right still have a nostalgic view of courts.
You decided to vote for a blatant crook, the justice system is now an inconvenience to you.
I see no evidence he voted for Biden.
Exactly.
"(1) grammatical confusion, (2) record confusion, and (3) personal beliefs"
(4) biology
When you peel away the veneer of legalities and linguistics, the crux remains whether one accepts gender identity as a legitimate trait.
Yes-ish.
I agree that it is the crux (especially for some of the commenters, and, thinly veiled, in the dissenting opinions), but in terms of this directive, it really is about respect for the litigants in front of you.
There are a number of easy ways for judges to refer to litigants and their counsel without referring to gendered pronouns at all, if that's really an issue for them. Unfortunately, there are a very small number of judges who feel it is necessary to deliberately and antagonistically mis-gender the individuals in the courtroom, and make quite a show of it, similar to the judges in the 70s (and into the 80s) who demanded that female attorneys abide by certain rules regarding honorifics, dress, and even hairstyles.
I found it rather odd that the dissent said:
I think the proposed accommodates the dissent's request:
So, what's the problem with the rule?
I honestly don’t know.
Well … I kinda do. But the problem isn’t the rule.
(In other words, this would prohibit ... certain judges ... who want to deliberately misgender people, for reasons....)
It involved the court in a highly controversial issue and arguably took a side by recognizing "Mx." for no good purpose. The rule was not necessary because a judge who deliberately chose to use someone's disfavored title rather than any one of number of alternative means of address would be probably risk running afoul of judicial canons about treating litigants with respect anyway.
Or, to paraphrase the common refrain of those who criticize gender-identity related laws, "this isn't even an issue requiring the attention of the Court."
Perhaps the ruling was unnecessary (I'm not sure). But, it also poses no problem for people who don't want to use "Mx."
In some states, if a voter wants to be identified in official documents as, say, a member of the Forward party, the government will misparty the voter and classify the person as independent or unaffiliated.
That’s quite inaccurate and offensive.
When will the activists get to work on this issue?
Yes, that is the case. As an independent I was always offended that the State of California misidentified by party as "Declined to state" as if I were a closet R or D.
"Mx."??
reminds me of the Superman Villain with the unpronounceable name,
"Mr. Mxyzptlk"
of course today people would just think he was from one of the Baltic states,
Frank
Any ruling on this subject is certain to invite outrage on one side, or on all sides of the issue. It is a loose-loose situation.
At least they avoided restricting witness language. That would have been really explosive.
Justice Zahra is right when he says that litigants often attempt to disrupt proceedings, and language issues give them ammunition. Imagine a defendant who insists that he/she/they be addressed as "Innocent Smith"
I have no objection to using they/them/their, but the “Mx.” business crosses the line into absurdity.
There is, however, an already respected way to handle this problem without venturing into incorrect English usage, and that is to refer to everyone by he/him/his as though everyone were male. The reason for this is not to denigrate female persons or anyone else. Just as the point of referring to all women as “Ms.” is to avoid the need for the speaker to inquire, or guess, whether or not the woman so addressed is married, referring to everyone as “Mr.” will avoid the need for the speaker to inquire, or guess, what sort of private parts and/or chromosomes the person so addressed may or may not possess — because no one needs to know that information unless he is trying to get the other person into bed.
I think you're confusing the tradition of referring to hypothetical people as male. I would imagine that most women would strongly object to being referred to as "Mr."
Dixie Lee Ray insisted that she was the last Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission BUT she was Madam Governor in the State of Washington.
I'm fine with one rule for everyone. I'm sure the men will have no problem with everyone universally being referred to as Ms.
Tl;dr. Nor the comment thread. As with so many of Volokh's posts, who TF could care? Why do y'all get so obsessed with trivia?
He's just lathering his collection of disaffected rubes and vestigial bigots. He seems to enjoy it.
Relax. If this is how these clingers wish to spend their remaining time before replacement (or before wearing out their welcome on mainstream campuses), let them have their inconsequential, last-gasp jollies.
Ah, yes, that famous commandment, "Thou shalt affirm only the preferred pronouns of a person that are consistent with the biological gender indicated on that person's birth certificate."
How anyone can assert that this is a sincere "religious" belief that they have is beyond me.
Ah, but kudos to Eugene for yet more red meat to his fans.
1. You have a religious tenet:
"So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them."
2. You have titles with fixed meanings for male and female.
3. You have a state-enforced code of conduct that arguably requires a person to declare that a male is a female or vice versa by addressing them with the other's title.
4. You are required to speak this message despite its conflict with your religious tenet or face penalties by the state.
It's not that complicated.
Your biblical quotation seems less than determinative to me. In fact, I would argue that the text is saying that all members of mankind are both male and female, not one or the other. Therefore people like you denying this are disregarding the word of God. I have spoken.
God created trans people same as He created cis.
Why do people who live in a country historically riven with prejudice and discrimination still get shocked when there are laws passed protecting the victims?
There is no religious conflict.
Why do you call people who have never once asked to be called it "cis"?
Treat them the same as the ones who never asked to be called "homo sapiens" or "human."
Cisgender is a slur. It is good to see how deep your firmly held beliefs go.
It's as much a slur as 'straight' or 'white.'
Look, it’s one thing to say that religion is stupid, obviously made up, and shouldn’t be a guide for anyone sensible in civilized civil society.
It’s another thing altogether to say that someone is interpreting their own religion incorrectly.
Why can’t we criticize someone for “interpreting their own religion incorrectly”?
Most religious people – even people with zero theological or philosophical training – claim to derive their specific religious beliefs from religious texts and other relevant authorities via the operation of reason. It is by no means improper to notice how often their reasoning employs special pleading, leads to absurd conclusions, draws invalid inferences, etc., and it is by no means unfair to fault them for it. They are claiming to abide by a coherent religious creed. Pointing out ways in which it is not coherent is just taking them seriously, on their own terms.
The commenter I responded to, upthread, who purports to cite a single Biblical verse in support of rejecting trans identity, is exemplary in this respect. All that the verse in question literally says is that God created man, in his own image, and simultaneously as “male” and “female”. The very text in itself shows us that we either have to infer that (i) God is both “male” and “female” or (ii) the passage is not meant to be taken too literally, and the language is metaphorical in some sense.
Few religious people would take the passage as implying (i), or that God must visually look like us, or have some kind of biological “sex” that cannot be changed at God’s will. They would more likely say that we are created in God’s “image,” in the sense that we have an inherently rational nature, are capable of telling right from wrong, are capable of great good and great evil, etc. Similarly, by saying that God created man in his own image but also as “male” and “female,” most religious people would take the passage to just mean that both men and women have those basic features of man, reflecting God’s image. Finally, most religious people would recognize that the passage is speaking generally, and not of the specific conception of any particular individual. “God created man,” is the point. Not “God created me,” though that would follow.
What interpreters like Jacob try to do is to take that verse, poetic and metaphorical as it is, and derive a whole dictate around its literal text. Where do we get the direction that we are to treat the verse as an instruction on how to think about trans identity? Where does it say that each and every individual in existence is created by God, in a particular form that cannot be changed by that person or anyone else, and that we are in some sense required to respect that form? It is just as consistent with that passage to say that people may be born in one form but come to adopt another. It is just as consistent with that passage to say that, when a person does choose to adopt another form than the one they were born with, we are obliged to respect that choice and treat that person with the same basic respect they otherwise deserve.
The only beliefs that the passage precludes is the belief that God didn’t create man, that he didn’t create man in his “image,” whatever that means, or that “man” wasn’t created as “male” and “female,” and beliefs that can be validly derived from the passage. Everything else must be supplied. And believers who are not aware of this, or who see no particular need to explain how they arrive at the beliefs they invalidly hoist on passages like this, deserve to be criticized.
God does not make mistakes.
Trannies specifically claim that He did.
That is unspeakably offensive to literally every religion on Earth.
Sounds like you're the one claiming He made a mistake. How unspeakably offensive of you.
Another religious tenet maybe the Judge had in mind is do not lie/do not bear false witness.
Competent adults neither advance nor accept religious (supernatural, superstitious, nonsense-based) positions or assertions in reasoned debate.
Gullible children of all ages do, though.
1. You have a religious tenet:
Believing that God (i) created man, (ii) created man in God's image, and (iii) created them as "male and female" does not, in fact, imply anything at all about the fixity of any particular person's gender identity, about the authority on this question of bureaucratic records created upon a particular person's birth, about how we ought to think about putative transgender identity, or about how we ought to act towards people who claim to have been "assigned" a gender at birth but now claim another one is their "true" identity.
It's a classic is-does-not-imply-ought problem. There are a number of hidden premises, not derived from the religious text you've cited, that must be supplied to reach the conflict you think is obvious. You might as well be asserting that God's word means that "Alex" is always and forever a boy's name.
Earlier in this century, even as a curmudgeonly pedant and member-in-good-standing of the Grammar Police (motto: To Serve & Correct), I came to a grudging acceptance of the common usage of the singular They, Their, and Them.
Still, I prefer to do what I've done since the latter part of the last century—when a non-awkward way is possible, construct my writing to avoid gender-specific pronouns (especially but not limited to situations where it was once considered normal to use the male form when referring to a general population). But when the context makes it obvious (and watching out for the dreaded indefinite pronoun), the singular they/their/them is both less awkward and more courteous.
I also use a person's preferred pronoun when I know it's their preference. Some of my extended rural Idaho family think I'm virtue-signaling or want to be seen as a member the hip in-crowd (obviously not, as shown by my use of the phrase, hip in-crowd), I don't much care that they refuse to believe it's simply because I appreciate respectful, polite, civil discourse. And because, as a member of the Grammar Police, I know something they don't: Language Evolves.
And I'll continue to do that until new non-gender-specific personal pronouns become the general common-use default, which I think will eventually happen. They may or may not be ze, zir, or, as this article states, Mx, which are not yet that. But at one time, as noted in the court’s announcement, neither was Ms. The principle is the same.
Well said. I also have to admit that as someone who was also once a fellow member of the Grammar Police, who had "proper" pronoun usage repeatedly beat into me by a succession of teachers, I, too, struggled at first with the singular "they."
And then I realized that being respectful and kind to other people actually matters more than made-up grammar rules.
I've known singular they to be used all my life, usually in reference to individuals whose identities are unknown.
How do you feel about returning to the ever forgettable "s/he"?
I use it frequently.
I do not think it is ultimately necessarily respectful or loving – meaning putting others above yourself – to encourage or indulge harmful delusions, or in general to unfailingly avoid unpleasant truths. It could be “polite” or decorous if a social norm establishes as much, social norms can be anything, they are superficial and may range from virtuous to benign to vicious.
Calling people deluded and subjecting them to your personal bias against them is neither.
That can be true, I agree - beating people over the head with unpleasant truths isn't loving either, it's about context and relationship, authenticity and motive, a balance between grace and truth.
Accepting that being trans is a medically recognised condition would help.
Thus ends Christianity, King of Delusions and Deluder of the Pathetically Gullible . . .
Tell us about Muslims and how they're less superstitious than Christians.
Or did they redeem themselves, despite their superstition, by voting by a 70% margin for Biden?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/us-election-muslim-voters-biden-b1587825.html
(Ah, but that's different because Muslim citizens believed that one of the major parties was attacking them and their faith! Why would anyone vote for a party which did that?)
All this is, ultimately, is a plan to change laws by simply changing the meaning of words from their historical definitions and the ones used when legislation to pass to all new ones whenever a progressive wants to do so.
Give zero inches.
Open wider, clinger.
Only person I have blocked here is Artie, because there has never been a cogent word written by him in his life.
Why does he continue trying to write bullshit nonsense? I'm not going to read it as I'd need several brain trauma to begin to think like him.
Perhaps his dad should not have gotten so drunk that night. Or his mom should have held off getting drunk for nine months.
...or gotten friendly with a coat hanger.
They ("empowered progressives"*) like to pretend that there is no debate. "All right-thinking people know that [...]!" The only division, as they see it, is between the "right-thinking people" and "deplorables." And surely we can't let the latter's views count for anything!
compare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_has_no_rights
* I am quoting from a letter to the Wall Street Journal from earlier this year, published under the headline "DEI Is a Mask for Progressive Power":
'They (“empowered progressives”*) like to pretend that there is no debate.'
Who are you debating? Trans people? You're passing laws against them. Where's the debate?
Gender is a nonsense concept and nobody should be under any obligation to respect it.
The moment ANY of them can define what they feel like without using completely circular reasoning, we can talk.
They defined it well enough for the medical establishment as far back as 1980, not exactly an institution famous for being lgtbq-friendly. You're just too dumb or unqualified to understand. Or you don't actually care you just hate them and everthing else follows.
A biological male remains a biological male forever. Calling a biological male a she even if he prefers that pronoun is effectively lying in court. I prefer to be factually correct which is normally required in court.
And why don't you explain to the rest of us, as if we were slightly dumb golden retrievers, exactly how you are bringing your legal acumen to bear on this issue.
Except you are not being factually correct, you are simply denying the medically proven existence of trans people, so if you made that argument in court, you would be lying.
The "God" in courtroom oaths is a lie, too. Does that one bother you, too, or are you gullible enough to believe that superstition constitutes trump in that context?
It might be time for the culture war's victors to stop appeasing the obsolete and bigoted.
The arguments of those who see no problem with default settings that use a Bible or a superstition-based oath in court, yet are outraged by enabling a litigant to choose a pronoun because that would involve "taking sides," do not deserve much respect.
And, increasingly, do not receive much respect in a modern, improving America. These are the same obsolete losers who put women in jail cells for wearing pants in court or objecting to being forced to use a married name; didn't object when gays were forced out of the military or required to stay in a closet to hold professional licenses; still chafe against the removal of prayer from classrooms; and figure white people are being persecuted by modern society. They deserve replacement, not respect.
Yesh, that *is* funny. Especially since we’re supposed to have a First Amendment.
“one’s gender is seen by some as more important to their identity than their party”
And suppose, hypothetically of course, that political identity is seen by some as absolutely central to their lives. This would never happen in reality, but just do this thought experiment with me. Mispartying them would be even more offensive to them than misgendering them.
The point, of course, is whose wishes get catered to.
If being called the wrong party caused dysphoria and the medical community agreed calling you by the right party is essential to your health, then your hypothetical works. But the problem is none of that is the case whereas it is for gender identity.
The medical community diagnoses gender dysphoria through patients saying they have gender dysphoria, and at least two of the diagnostic criteria rest upon gender stereotypes (and you only need two criteria for a diagnosis). The medical community says calling people by the right party is essential because patients who believe it's essential say it's essential.
https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/diversity/education/transgender-and-gender-nonconforming-patients/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis#section_1
The medical community really is not credible in this area because it's patients, not doctors, who are deciding that they need treatment, choosing a specific treatment (all they have to do is wait), and self-reporting whether any specific treatment is effective.
Excellent, I’m seeing the basis for a reasonable solution – if, say, a lawyer gets a medical certificate that he/she/they/etc would experience acute distress, and possible suicidal thoughts, upon being addressed based on their “sex assigned at birth,” then no judge will be permitted to use such forms of address.
Given what you say is the medical consensus, getting certificates from their doctors should be no problem at all from true sufferers of gender dysphoria.
In contrast, if someone feels acute distress at not being able to join the woman’s swimming team, then have their medical certificate about the distress they would feel be counterbalanced by doctor’s notes from the biological women on the team based on the distress *they* would feel being exposed to male-appearing private parts in dressing rooms, then balance out the varying degrees of distress.
Likewise in prisons, if a biological male gets a doctor’s certificate that they will feel distress if not assigned to the women’s prison, then counterbalance that with certificates from the biological women in the women’s prison about the distress they would feel if exposed to someone with male-appearing private parts.
Let the best diagnosis win! What do you say?
That's our Artie -- permanently stuck in the distant past, yelling at 80-year-old clouds. I guess you play the hand you're dealt.
'through patients saying they have gender dysphoria'
You'd be surprised how much medical diagnosis relies on patients describing their own symptoms, and how much measurements of treatment effectiveness rely on patients describing the effect of the treatments, it's quite shocking really.
Two key differences:
1. "I have a headache" communicates a coherent, understandable message. "I want to be a woman/I want to be treated like a woman" does not convey anything except perhaps an unhealthy belief in sexual stereotypes or a fetish. "I feel like a woman/man" conveys the same amount of understandable information as "I feel like a vacuum cleaner."
2. The nature of treatment for gender dysphoria creates perverse incentives about reporting its effectiveness. Someone who is determined to go on hormone blockers and surgeries has an incentive not to believe that therapy or social transitioning is enough. By the same token, someone who has undergone irreversible procedures has an incentive to convince himself that it is working because the alternative is to acknowledge an extremely poor decision.
1. Doctors’ diagnostic skills really need to be well beyond the ‘I have a headache’ stage. Your own limitations are irrelevant.
2. Incentives that lead to positive outcomes are only perverse if you’re a masochist, in terms of your own treatments, or a sadist, in terms of other peoples’. Also, you’ve arbitrarily created a unique class of patient who you claim must be treated as liars in terms of describing their own physical state before and after treatment. They want the treatment, but not because they need it; the treatments are overwhelmingly succesful, but only because the people who undergo them claim they work. Really stacking the deck there, pal.
The experience of those with gender dysphoria support the existence of gender identity as a trait. That’s good enough by me to accept one’s preferred pronouns without a diagnosis.
Whether gender identity should be honored in sports, prisons, bathrooms, showers, etc. can be determined by balancing the interests at stake without a diagnosis of anyone.
1. You're just ignoring what I said and running your mouth, as is your want. The only way GD is diagnosed is for a patient to say he has GD. It's literally in the diagnostic criteria.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria#section_0
2. There's nothing masochistic about it. They WANT to pass as the other gender. They WANT puberty blockers and surgeries. Talking about their feelings can't do that. Name changes and clothing can't do that. And wouldn't you know it, the thing they WANT is the "last resort" after conservative treatments "fail," and those treatments fail when they say they fail.
And yes, I am creating a unique class of patient whose ailment has no describable symptoms outside of non-adherence to gender stereotypes (read the diagnostic criteria) and cannot be objectively detected. The entire premise of the ailment makes no sense and therefore I am not going to take every word coming from a person who claims to have it at face value.
The experience of those who have claimed to speak to God supports the existence of God. That's good enough for me to believe He exists.
How far back do you figure one must go to find a woman sanctioned for the offense of wearing pants in court?
It's the Volokh Conspirators' call to choose bigoted dumbasses as their target audience; it should be legitimate law schools' call on whether they want disaffected, bigot-hugging clingers on their faculties.
I figure if you're itching so badly for us to know and if it's significantly more recent than what I said, you'll tell us.
Otherwise you'll just keep yammering.
1. I'm not so much ignoring what you say as flabbergasted that you're horrified that a doctor relies on a patient to tell them their symptoms. The medical horror stories that arise from doctors not listening to their patients are many and varied.
2. They want their physical body to match their inner sense of themselves as much as possible. That's what gender dysphoria is, and that's how it's treated. You're ascribing nebulously sneaky motivations to complete strangers to account for what's aready accounted for in medical textbooks.
'whose ailment has no describable symptoms'
Obviously it does have describable symptoms, you just don't understand them and that's making you weirdly angry even though you're not asked or required to understand them unless you decide to comment on the subject, and which you fail to do.
'The entire premise of the ailment makes no sense'
Do you make a habit of assessing diagnostic procedures and treatments for what makes sense to you, a non-expert with a chip on their shoulder, and then demand your opinion be taken into account throughout the process? Or just this one?
Are you sure you wouldn't like to check if there's some sort of related medical diagnosis before jumping in like that?
These bigots are your fans, Volokh Conspirators, and that it no coincidence.
Neither is the recent celebration on UCLA's campus. Which campus will improve next?
The Volokh Conspiracy: Official Legal Blog of On-The-Spectrum Fans of Hubert Irving Teitelbaum.
Let the record reflect Artie just kept on yammering. Apparently my 80-year-old time frame was, somewhat unsurprisingly, dead accurate.