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My New Lawfare Article on Trump and the Use of Section 3 Disqualification as a Tool to Protect Democracy Against Itself
Section 3 disqualification is justifiable as a democracy-limiting tool to protect democracy. But there are slippery-slope issues that deserve serious consideration.

Earlier today, Lawfare published my article on "Section 3 Disqualifications for Democracy Preservation." Here is an excerpt:
There is an ongoing debate over whether Donald Trump must be disqualified from holding the presidency—or any public office—under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Enacted in the aftermath of the Civil War, Section 3 states that "No person" can hold any state or federal office if they had previously held state or federal public office in the United States and then "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
In a much-discussed new article, prominent conservative originalist legal scholars William Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen argue that this rule is broad enough to bar Trump because of his efforts to overturn the result of the 2020 election and his role in instigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol….
Part of the debate triggered by the article focuses on whether Baude and Paulsen have correctly interpreted key terms such as "insurrection" and "aid or comfort." But other critics contend that disqualifying Trump is, as Stanford Law Professor Michael McConnell puts it, likely to have "profoundly anti-democratic" consequences, depriving voters of the opportunity to vote for the candidate of their choice…..
If Baude and Paulsen's analysis of Section 3 is otherwise sound, concerns about democracy should not prevent officials from using it to disqualify Trump and others implicated in the events leading up to Jan. 6. Democracies have good reason to disqualify would-be officeholders whose track records indicate they endanger liberal democratic values. There is plenty of relevant precedent for disqualification for purposes of democratic preservation in both the United States and other democracies, most notably "lustration" laws barring officeholding by former functionaries of communist dictatorships in the newly democratic nations of Eastern Europe. While slippery-slope concerns should be taken seriously, there are safeguards against them, particularly in the form of judicial review.
There is, however, one genuine serious downside of applying Section 3: Some insurrections are actually morally defensible. Disqualifying those who participate in rebellions fighting for a just cause is problematic. But it may be the price we have to pay for Section 3's failure to distinguish between just and unjust rebellions against authority. Some number of unjust disqualifications may need to be accepted in order to reduce the greater menace of allowing would-be authoritarians access to the most powerful office in the land.
The rest of the article develops these points in more detail and addresses a number of potential objections.
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"democracy-limiting tool to protect democracy."
Trump is amazing. A schmuck who should be no where near the White House to be sure, but simply amazing all the same.
Maybe so. But the attempt to equate a few hours riot by the unarmed to the Civil War is freighting. Anyone that has contributed bail money to a host of progressive disturbances could be hoist on this petard.
Then it's a good thing this post doesn't "equate a few hours riot by the unarmed to the Civil War."
Unarmed? The J6 rioters' charges included weapons charges.
A flag pole does not count as armed in normal understanding.
Guns do.
Just a couple of samples since you seem ignorant:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/capitol-rioter-armed-gun-jan-6-found-guilty-charges-rcna80387
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/indiana-man-pleads-guilty-carrying-gun-and-assaulting-law-enforcement-officers-jan-6
I am not sure that a handgun is considered "armed" under International Law.
Usually it means automatic rifles, RPGs, mortars, howitzers, etc.
International law is surely relevant here...
Are you really trying to argue that the Jan 6 insurrection was "unarmed" because they didn't have mortars?
Wow, look at those goalposts fly! I'm really curious to see how much cognitive dissonance MAGA can absorb. It's definitely breaking some longstanding records.
So, they did finally locate a couple participants who had guns, but didn't use them? Well, that's at least two people who were involved in an armed insurrection, anyway. Out of thousands...
You're going to keep playing the if-I-can't-see-it-it-isn't-there game even though you've already been proven wrong? I guess that is how cults work, so not too surprising.
The real question is, how many insurrectionists were armed? I'd guess 10% to 20%.
EXACTLY -- including the current VP...
“”profoundly anti-democratic” consequences, depriving voters of the opportunity to vote for the candidate of their choice…..”
Oh, hi there, Rip Van Wanker, did you just wake up? Depriving voters of the right to select candidates of their choice has been the modus operandi of the system for quite a long time.
Sometimes, in certain important cases, the people themselves tie their own hands by imposing limitations on the kind of candidates they can elect – no-one too young, no-one who lives outside your state, no-one who hasn’t been a citizen for a certain time, no-one who violates Section 3, etc., etc.
More often, though, it isn’t the people who limit the people’s choices, it’s the incumbent politicians who are trying to protect themselves from competition. These incumbents try their best to keep rival candidates off the ballot, no matter how constitutionally qualified they might be. Bet case scenario, the voters are tricked into thinking the person isn’t a candidate at all, or worse case scenario, they’re not allowed even to write in the person’s name. And all this where there’s no doubt the targeted person meets the constitutional qualifications.
Perhaps Rip Van Wanker only cares about democratic choices when it’s a member of one of the two major parties who is affected?
Well, incoumbent politician Donald John Trump tried to protect himself from competition and limit people’s choices in pretty serious ways. Among other things, he called the Georgia Secretary of State telling him to come up with 11,000 more votes, he got a mob to storm Congress while it was counting the votes, stuff like that.
So when say incumbent politicians like that guy shouldn’t do stuff like that, what do you think should happen when they do?
I would say this:
“Sometimes, in certain important cases, the people themselves tie their own hands by imposing limitations on the kind of candidates they can elect – no-one too young, no-one who lives outside your state, no-one who hasn’t been a citizen for a certain time, no-one who violates Section 3, etc., etc.”
Wait, I already said it!
But I’d be more interested in duopolists’ protestations about the integrity of the election process if they didn’t make a regular practice of excluding concededly-qualified persons from the ballot.
It's a conspiracy against voting rights next to which ID cards at the polls look trivial.
This is a two-party system. Sorry! I hate it too but it is what it is.
If you want more than two (viable) parties you need a Parliament. I've decided I prefer our two-party system to that.
If the two-party system is so inevitable and essential, then the people can support it by their votes in a system of free elections. What have you to fear, if the people are naturally inclined to vote for the two-party system? Unless there’s a risk that, faced with alternatives, they’ll pick the alternatives? But surely they would never do that, they’d simply ignore the non DemRep candidates on the ballot and give their honest support to either Tweedledee or Tweedledum.
You should talk to the duopoly leaders about their lack of faith in the people. If a two-party system is inevitable, why cheat to achieve it?
The fact that it's inevitable and essential makes it irrelevant whether the voters support it, and also ultimately irrelevant whether third parties get equal access to the ballot.
The only thing third-party ballot access achieves really is a scapegoat for the losing major party candidate.
“The fact that it’s inevitable and essential”
You believe this, not I. *I’m* willing to put my ideas to the test of reality by seeing whether the voters support my preferences in a free election.
“a scapegoat for the losing major party candidate”
A major-party candidate might say dumb stuff. I concede that.
Alternatives to first-past-the-post include runoffs and ranked choice voting.
You can delude yourself all you want, I don't care. I used to be like you actually. But then I realized we live in a two party system. It is essential and inevitable given the structure of the Constitution. Randal's Believe It or Not.
Like I said, subject your ideas to the reality test, see if, with fair elections, the voters continue to perpetuate the duopoly.
What have you to lose from such a test?
In US history, the two party system has seemed to be inevitable. But in no way is it essential, except to those who see the world as "us" versus "them."
The British Parliament is essential a two-party arrangement.
Having a third substantial party would be healthy for the badly polarized American system.
The British system is not the only (or even the usual) way parliamentary democracy is done in the rest of the world. In the British "first past the post" system of electing MPs it usually results in a large majority for the winning party, effectively rendering the other party (or parties) mere spectators standing in "loyal opposition" in the Commons.
As a result, there is no such thing as "bipartisanship" because there is no need for it--the majority party also controls the government and has the majority to do exactly whatever it wants.
The more common parliamentary system you're probably thinking of usually results in several parties which can often only form a government in coalition with other parties with similar or at least not violently opposing views. That generally also results in chronic instability, which isn't great either (but perhaps should be welcomed by anyone who believes an "ineffective" government is a good government.)
He asked him to "find" votes. Find does not mean create. We find uncounted votes all the time, including 2020.
Find of course does mean create in that context. We do not find uncounted votes all the time, and of course Trump had no pretense of a notion that there were any.
Bullshyte.
Trump was trying to make the GA Secy of State "an offer he couldn't refuse", in his inimitable middle-class mobster style.
There was no other rational reason why he was asked to only "find" the votes necessary for Trump to win the state: If votes had indeed been "stolen", a reasonable, non-criminal request would have been for all the stolen votes to be "found". However, by limiting his "request" solely to the number of votes needed for victory, Trump effectively tipped his hand about what he was really asking for--and a jury is entitled to reach the same conclusion in his upcoming criminal trial.
Trump's intent is not really a mystery to anyone who hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid. He was, after all, also impeached for trying to shake down the President of Ukraine for "favors" to help his re-election campaign. It's what he does.
So when your relative calls you up and says "You gotta help me find $5,000 for my bail!" you think he means he misplaced it and so you start rummaging through the couch cushions?
Obviously, your relative wants you to start the presses and counterfeit 5 large?
There are legal means of making money.
There are no legal means of making votes.
Yet vote totals change on recounts. Every single time...
Do you mean by asking for an investigation into actual crimes that we now know were committed by Biden with his son as front man?
I see you're ignoring all the irregularities in multiple districts and unconstitutional violations of law and disqualifications of votes that they ignored as long as they helped Joe.
Margrave likes Republicans, who are anti-democratic, no matter how low the tricks they use. He is also into lying and name-calling.
Can you so much as draw a breath without lying?
There's the lying.
So, no, you can't.
Again, lying. You expressed a preference for the Republicans over the Democrats. Republicans use all sorts of tricks to subvert the democratic process: gerrymandering, voter suppression, election denial, fake candidates and more.
Here's a link to some lying and name calling by Margrave.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/09/01/today-in-supreme-court-history-september-1-1823-5/?comments=true#comment-10222252
Some of my best work, and all true.
Margrave plan:
1. keep lying and name-calling
2. ???
3. PROFIT!!!
You said was operating in the interests of the Republicans, then you walked the accusation back, then you walked the walkback back. Then you walked partway back to say I merely *preferred* the Republicans (omitting to mention that I said the Republicans are rapidly becoming as bad as your Democrats).
Meanwhile, you played a bait and switch where you accused me of not denouncing the first-past-the-post system hard enough. Then when I said it would be legitimate to drop first-past the post for a runoff system based on the (Democratic) California jungle primary, you said that was based on a racist policy, and you said I preferred that policy. Then you denied calling me a racist.
You're hardly in a position to denounce lying and name-calling.
You defend a government-enforced cartel of two parties, and the same logic would justify a government monopoly of one party. This is why you're familiar with the leather taste of fascist jackboots. Though I suppose I might have used softer rhetoric if you hadn't already called me a Republican sympathizer and a racist.
It's the comment section of a blog, not a doctoral thesis, and I return what I receive in terms of name-calling. I make inferences about what others write that I believe a reasonable person could infer, but your posts are so illogical that it is probably impossible to figure out what you actually believe. But I've also offered links and sincere if quickly drafted thoughts, not lies. You lie, name-call, and neither back up your claims nor answer questions put to you. But since you wrote a longer reply, despite the amount of lies and name-calling, I will offer a longer response.
What's the most important improvement for election access? You seem to think it's getting rid of modest fees like those in Washington for races where you'd need to get fifty times as many votes as dollars in that fee to win, and which you can avoid with the same number of signatures instead (if you can't find a few hundred or thousand signatures, how are you going to get tens to hundreds of thousands of votes?). I've consistently endorsed ranked choice voting, and opposed eliminating requirements that prevent phone-book sized ballots. Have the other things you've put forward encouraged third parties where they are used?
You claimed Washington has a jungle primary, but it's actually a top-two primary, with two candidates in the general election - this seems the opposite of what you would want, since it excludes third parties from the general election. (Some sources call it a jungle primary, but Ballotpedia distinguishes those systems and the blanket primary which Washington once had but which was declared unconstitutional.) Louisiana is the only state that really has a jungle primary, and it offers some negatives. California went the same way as Washington, but if the Democratic party is responsible for what you consider an improvement, then the duopoly can't be invariably evil.
You stated that "Your advocacy of a two-party state could easily be used to justify a one-party state. What is the difference in principle?" (Actually, I don't advocate a two-party state; I just object to your half-baked proposals.) To quote Federalist No. 51, "Ambition must be made to counteract ambition." Whose ambition would check the one party? The original desire to avoid political parties failed; candidates need a party to support their campaigns, and to define a brand which voters follow. With three (or more) parties, one of them will get squeezed out in any time of polarization - voters move to the lesser of two evils because their greater interest is in blocking the party they hate, and the perceived minor party becomes irrelevant.
You admit to preferring Republicans, or at least that they're not as bad as Democrats; that can't be over any concern for improving elections, since they're the ones who have used so many dirty tricks to make elections worse. So I infer that you must prefer their policies to a sufficient extent to outweigh the negative of their attacks on fair elections. But I will concede that logic does not always seem to enter into your reasoning.
“I return what I receive in terms of name-calling”
No, you were the aggressor; you picked a fight by saying, accompanied by your usual invective, that I was acting on behalf of the Republican Party merely for defending the idea of a fair and honest ballot. Then you admitted you couldn’t prove your charges and walked them back; then like a dog returning to its vomit you returned to the accusation again.
You dished it out, but you couldn’t take it, so you blubber about how I’m being mean and calling you names.
You mentioned an error I made about Washington state’s election system without mentioning that (without prompting from you) I speedily corrected the error. Was that fair dealing on your part? (I could use stronger language but that would be name-calling).
I said the Republicans were rapidly becoming as bad as your party (Democrats), but you omitted to mention that part of my remarks when you said I preferred the Republicans. Was that fair dealing on your part? (I could use stronger language but that would be name-calling).
Basically, because I don’t share your devil-theory of one branch of the duopoly, you think I support the other branch.
You practiced bait and switch by saying I wasn’t loud enough in denouncing first-past-the-post, so when I suggested a runoff, you said I was approving a racist policy (and to make the accusation worse, you said that policy was invented by your own party down in Georgia). And you said that this was the policy I preferred. Then you denied calling me a racist. Was that fair dealing on your part? (I could use stronger language but that would be name-calling).
I suggested a way to boost turnout at runoffs, since your ostensible concern was that poor blacks would be less likely so show up at runoffs. My suggestion was treating voting like jury duty – which an employer could not penalize – and you brushed if off as irrelevant. You’d built up a good head of outrage and you had to jizz it out, regardless of the facts.
You praised Joe Slovo as an example of an atheist with a superior morality to religious people, but again you concealed the fact that up until the collapse of the Soviet empire he was a Stalinist, as admitted by the New York Times in his obituary.
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/07/obituaries/joe-slovo-anti-apartheid-stalinist-dies-at-68.html
Was that fair dealing on your part? (I could use stronger language but that would be name-calling).
If the government tries to set the number of political parties with monopolistic legislation, then whether they graciously allow a second party or simply confine themselves to one party makes no difference in principle, and quoting Federalist 51 doesn’t change that. So if you’re going to call me a Republican shill and so forth and so on, then I’ll call you a jackboot-licking fascist. “Waah, he’s calling me names!”
Margrave can't engage in an actual discussion; just lying, name calling, failures of logic. There's almost nothing worth responding to in this latest reply.
That's a lie.
That's also a lie; I point out that you lie and name-call for the benefit of anyone who might mistakenly believe that you are capable of a worthwhile discussion. I would like you to spend more time responding squarely to the actual arguments made.
The Republicans are becoming as bad as someone worse shows you prefer the Republicans, when only considering two parties, and by your own frequent claim, that's all we have. You might prefer some third party that exists, but you never say so; you might prefer some non-existent third party, but that's irrelevant. It's a completely fair conclusion in a duopoly. I said repeatedly that your preference was that the Republicans weren't as bad; you never tried to rebut my observation that they're much worse on fair elections (gerrymandering, voter suppression, ghost canddiates, fake canddiates, voter intimidation, insurrection to prevent the peaceful transfer of power, and more), nor to explain what other factor compensates for that to lead you to rate them not as bad as Democrats.
Perhaps you would share how you actually vote. Do you not vote at all? Do you vote for one of the third parties that do make the ballot? Do you hold your nose and vote for the Republicans as the lesser of two evils?
I pointed out that Georgia has such a law which you seem still unaware of, but it only requires two hours of unpaid leave.
That's a lie. I only listed Slovo as a significant anti-apartheid activist who was an atheist.
This may be the only substantial thing to discuss in this reply, and at the risk of offending you, it does not make sense. If "the government" can act singularly to allow a second party or not, then you're not in a two-party system. When the Bush administration was seen to have screwed up (Iraq war, Hurricane Katrina, the Great Recession), people voted Democrats into power. People in China unhappy with their government? They can get martial law and run over by tanks in Tiananmen Square. In a one-party system, a change in government is possible with enough popular support but it's usually a revolution. Russia today has many political parties, but if any opposition gains much traction, their leaders are likely to be arrested or fall out windows.
You seem to be equating the two-party system of the United States to the one-party systems of Communist China, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany or other authoritarian regimes. What would Margrave call someone else who seemed to equate those? Most likely guess is "jackboot-licking fascist".
It may be that this response to Margrave is the best possible:
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/08/14/monday-open-thread-13/?comments=true#comment-10198812
“I pointed out that Georgia has such a law which you seem still unaware of, but it only requires two hours of unpaid leave.”
And you think two hours of unpaid leave is *sufficient,* especially in severely contested elections which go into runoffs? This shows a distinct lack of realism.
You started the fight by calling me a Republican shill. Now you’re whining because I fought back. To claim anything other than that is a lie.
“Republicans” [blah blah]
Yes, I know, I don’t share your belief in Republicans being the root of all evil, I simply think they’re part of a duopoly along with your Democratic party. And the Republicans will soon be as bad as your party – and yes, I mean that as an insult to you. You said my desire for a fair and honest ballot was simply acting in the interests of the Republican Party. Shame on you for being the aggressor in this argument by making such an accusation, you deserve the full measure of self-defense with which I reacted. I *don’t* think an honest ballot would be in the interests of the Republicans, and I’m surprised you would assert this, even for polemical purposes, given your slavish attachment to the Democratic wing of the duopoly.
“Perhaps you would share how you actually vote.”
Fool, I would like to vote by an honest ballot which gives alternatives besides the duopoly, but you want to limit my rights. Which makes you a jackboot-licking, un-American fascist.
“I only listed Slovo as a significant anti-apartheid activist who was an atheist.”
Oh, bullshit, you were in the middle of a discussion about the alleged moral superiority of atheists, and you covered up the fact that one of your atheist heroes was a *fucking Stalinist.*
I’m proud that I defended myself against the aggression of the likes of you.
“No filing fee”
Another lie; I specifically said I supported filing fees.
“I would like you to spend more time responding squarely to the actual arguments made.”
Yet when I defended an honest ballot you responded by lying and saying that my criticism of the duopoly was done in the interests of the one branch of the duopoly. At first you tried to walk back the lie, then, like a dog returning it its vomit, you returned to lying.
And you lie further when you whine about my defending myself against your verbal aggression, as if you were an injured innocent instead of the aggressor.
Two replies, and both edited? I guess somebody is steamed, probably because of his own bad logic, and so the lies and name-calling are flowing.
There's rampant problems with all your suggestions, but your utopian belief that just putting many third parties on the ballot will fix things is among the worst. And your approach to your problem with the current ballot is to rage in a forum where almost nobody but me pays any attention.
That you refuse to accept that Republicans do more of the dirty tricks reflects poorly on you. Let us know when you've done some research on that. Your weird belief that the worst insult possible is pointing out that you're carrying water for the Republicans, apparently unaware of it, is probably peak entertainment from you, especially now that you're just recycling the same lies.
Heh, I pointed out how you lied by claiming I opposed filing fees – you didn’t even bother to defend this lie, because you can’t.
I pointed out how you covered up Slovo’s Stalinism – you didn’t even bother to defend this dishonesty, because you can’t.
“pointing out that you’re carrying water for the Republicans”
If by “pointing out” you mean lying, then yes, your lies were pretty bad – you were the aggressor, and you expected that I wouldn’t exercise my right of verbal self-defense. You thought I’d sit there and be your personal punching-bag. Go ahead and whine like a bitch because I didn’t play that passive role.
Your duopoly allies literally *threw my vote away* and refused to count it, because I voted for a non-duopoly-approved candidate who was fully qualified for the office in question. Yet ballot access arguments only seem to erupt on this blog concerning a bloviating ass whose legal qualifications for the office he seeks are dubious. But he’s not as much of a bloviating ass as the people who strain at a gnat and swallow a camel when it comes to ballot access.
“your utopian belief that just putting many third parties on the ballot will fix things”
Yet another “terminological inexactitude.”
https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803103148126
I repeatedly said it should be up to the voters, in a fair and honest ballot (you know, the kind of ballot you’re against), to decide if they want to go third party or continue their support of the duopoly. If they want to stay on the duopoly plantation they should have every right to do it. Providing people the options to which they are entitled doesn’t mean they’ll take those options. Of course, I am somewhat cheered by the freakout of you and yours at the prospect of an honest ballot, since that very freakout indicates at least that you feel threatened by a fair choice among parties and candidates.
“Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you.”
All of your lies were rebutted by observing that you spewed lies. No need for specific rebuttals of individual lies -- there are too many.
But it's good that you've calmed down enough to only make a single post (although still edited, but that's have as many furious stabs at the Submit/Save Edit button). Too bad it's so full of lies.
And you finally give some clue as to how you have voted; it might be the only true thing you wrote:
In the real world, that means your candidate lost; the universal qualification for candidates to take office is winning election. My vote they've "thrown away" in about two thirds of the presidential elections I've voted in, because my candidate lost, and I can't count the number of write-in votes that have been "trhown away".
The only ballot I'm against is any that allows someone* to game the system to make the election less fair, as with fake candidates and ghost candidates and increasing general cynicism. Ranked choice voting is the only path toward third parties gaining traction, and the one thing we may agree on; turning presence on the ballot into a freebie or participation trophy is not such a path.
*In my lifetime, that someone is almost always the Republicans, a fact which you have never even tried to rebut.
“a fact which you have never even tried to rebut”
And you know what *you* never attempted to rebut?
The fact that you lied about my stance on filing fees.
The fact that you covered up Joe Slovo’s Stalinism.
“No need for specific rebuttals of individual lies — there are too many.”
Isn’t it funny that I was able to identify specific lies of yours and give specific rebuttals, and you’re still invoking merely your own (nonexistent) credibility when you make vague accusations?
Your "Republican dirty trick" assertion need neither be confirmed nor rebutted, because either way you lose. If it's false you're wrong yet again. If it's true, then the system *you* support would enable those rich Republicans paying for signature-gatherers when honest, regular parties have trouble affording it.
Why should I trouble defending the Republicans when, if your accusations were true, you'd be complicit in their behavior?
Perhaps *you* should spend more time with the edit button; you might not post as many falsehoods.
So I’m going to add another comment, and observe that you draw no distinction between a candidate simply losing, and the government effacing from the official record the fact that the losing candidate received any votes, or even existed. Both concepts come under your conceptual umbrella of thrown-away votes.
Even if the candidate in question isn’t on the ballot, write-in votes for that qualified candidate should be counted, not thrown down the memory hole. Even if ballot access were much fairer than it is, those who don’t make the ballot would still be entitled, if qualified, to have their write-in votes included in the official tally.
(“But the Supreme Court”…oh spare me any newly-discovered respect for the Supreme Court.)
Orwellian purging of the official record to remove any acknowledgement of a write-in candidate’s existence, or any acknowledgement of the fact that the candidate got votes, is most assuredly *not* the same as tabulating votes in order to ascertain who won and who lost, and publishing the results for the public to see.
Also, you profess to support ranked-choice voting, but that reform would eliminate the danger of a “ghost candidate” stealing votes from your party, since the less-popular parties would be eliminated – and presumably if the party is merely a ghost party it won’t be popular. Thus, it would vanish like a ghost when the final count is made. Yet you invoke these ghost parties to justify restrictions on ballot access. You seriously want us to believe that you are, as it were, afraid of phantoms.
It seems this comments section is reserved for vicious Tweedledee-versus-Tweedledum arguments between partisans of the two major parties – partisans like yourself, projecting their partisan dishonesty onto me when I try to get out of the same old duopolist rut.
Very well, let’s forget all about getting beyond the duopoly and just sit down and submit to our duopolist rulers as they miminze their differences to homeopathic levels and unite on the common cause of preserving their own power – after all, the duopoly has served the country so well, hasn’t it?
So long, sucker, sit down at your masters’ feet while they fleece you.
Uh oh! Margrave had another two post tantrum!
You don't need to find out if your favored Republicans are doing the dirty tricks? You just favor them over people who aren't doing the dirty tricks and are even working to fix problems. Jungle primaries and runoffs won't help you with not getting your vote counted. Ranked choice voting also won't help, but it's a good thing on its own. It keeps coming back to issuing phone books as ballots.
Your vote was counted the same as people who chose no candidate, because you didn't choose an actual candidate. If your "candidate who was fully qualified for the office in question" didn't do what was necessary, they failed to meet one of the qualifications, which you've never demonstrated is that difficult. The fault may be with your candidate, who didn't bother; or it may be with you, if you just voted for someone who chose not to be a candidate. It could be a loser candidate, or a loser Margrave, or both -- that's something for you to reflect on.
Come on, I'm looking forward to your three post tantrum.
Thank you for acknowledging, yet again, by your silence, that you lied about my position on filing fees.
"they failed to meet one of the qualifications, which you’ve never demonstrated is that difficult"
*You* said ballot access was difficult - you thought this difficulty was good because it would help thwart the Republican Dirty Tricks Squad (TM). You said that wanting to make ballot access easier meant I was carrying water for the Republican Party. If you can't keep track of your own ridiculous talking points, why should you expect me to do so?
You say that people in your party “are even working to fix problems.” Here’s how you convinced yourself of that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMK4cfXj5c0
Still lying, but only one edited post so probably a little calmer.
Your position on filing fees was never clear or consistent, but I noted that you preferred filing fees to signatures. You whined about substituting signatures for filing fee, but you won't say what a reasonable filing fee is. I never said you didn't support filing fees; that's a lie.
Another lie; I did not say that. I said that it's not that difficult.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/07/24/monday-open-thread-10/?comments=true#comment-10168851
Rather than linking to YouTube, you could educate yourself on what election problems there are, and who is working to fix them. Some examples: Democrats oppose the extreme gerrymandering of Republicans. Democrats have fought against disenfranchisement and voter suppression, which are favorite Republican strategies. Ranked choice voting? Republicans who control state government in Florida, Idaho, Montana, South Dakota, and Tennessee have banned ranked choice voting in their states. Although typically ranked choice voting arises from initiatives, and many Democrats are suspicious of it or opposed, Democrat Jamie Raskin in 2019 introduced legislation to require ranked choice voting for Congress. Republican Mike Lawler in 2023 introduced a bill to stop ranked choice voting. Here's an editorial by Raskin and Elizabeth Warren:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/18/opinion/ranked-choice-voting-is-better-way-vote/
Dumbass, you did indeed claim I was against filing fees.
“It may be that this response to Margrave is *the best possible* [emphasis added]:
“*No filing fee*, no signatures? [emphais added] You could end up with a phone book sized ballot.
“No good; *I’ve tried to explain that to him multiple times,* [emphasis added] and his response is to either shrug or make an illogical argument about paying for ballot access.”
What you conceal from the reader is that my “argument about paying for ballot access” is that candidates *should* pay for ballot access, you lying hack.
Your “rebuttal” to my point about the difficulty of ballot access starts out: “Is ballot access really holding back any party in *the very few places* that have ranked choice voting?” [emphais added]
But out of the other side of your mouth, you repeatedly said I was doing the will of the evil Republicans by wanting to make ballot access easier.
You can’t repeal the law of non-contradiction. When I point out that you conceded the difficulty of ballot access under the system you support, you can’t reply, “but look, here’s a quote where I talk out of the other side of my mouth and claim that ballot access is easy in a “very few places!””
I’m quite glad to see this sentence from the article you linked:
“Today’s elections host some of the largest and most diverse candidate fields — and that’s great.”
Since Warren and Raskin believe this, then maybe you can link to the editorial where they denounce their party’s effort to keep the Green Party off the ballot with Trumpian election-conspiracy theories.
One question: if being in favor of large and diverse candidate fields makes me a Republican, does it make Warren a Republican, too?
"extreme gerrymandering of Republicans"
Lol, why is gerrymandering of *any* kind acceptable? At large elections throughout the states would put an end to that gamesmanship, so I suppose your party, the electoral-reform party, is right on it.
This post has moved to the bottom of the page and will soon belong to the archives, but I wouldn’t put it past magister to keep corpse-fucking this thread and making comments which project his lying partisan hackery onto others.
It’s hard to see the world from his perspective, since I can’t get my head that far up my ass, but here are the points I’ve gleaned from his wise and insightful comments:
It’s important for him to emphasize that the the Republicans, with the help of wealthy donors, are creating “ghost parties” to steal votes from Democrats. To protect Democracy – or democracy, which is basically the same thing – it’s necessary to keep these ghost parties off the ballot through the use of signature requirements. (Of course, ranked-choice voting or runoffs would stop this sort of vote-stealing, but never mind that, since magister’s true agenda is to limit competitors of the duopoly parties; he doesn’t really have an honest concern about the spooky ghost parties, that’s just a pretext for supporting his politically-restrictive legislation.)
Keeping a well-funded ghost party off the ballot in these circumstances requires a fairly high signature requirement, otherwise the spooky g-g-g-ghost party could fairly easily get on the ballot. Therefore, a high signature requirement, high enough to deter these sinister wealthy interests, is required. I know magister isn’t really much into logic, but that’s the conclusion an average non-insane person would draw who is trying to interpret magister’s rantings.
So magister does, in fact, want ballot access to be made difficult with high signature requirements. This would of course deter legitimate, non-ghost parties, as well as being pointless as I explained above, since magister’s purported concerns about vote-stealing could be met with RCVs or runoffs. Pointless, that is, from the point of its supposed purpose. Not pointless to someone whose true agenda is to suppress the competitors of the duopoly.
Then magister cites an article including this gem from Senator Warren: “Today’s elections host some of the largest and most diverse candidate fields — and that’s great.” Which may be true in a handful of enlightened states, but isn’t true generally, and magister doesn’t want that outcome anyway, because to get such a large/diverse candidate field, you’d have to relax those burdensome ballot-access requirements which are required by his own so-called logic. Magister would be stepping on his own dick here, if his dick was even close to being long enough.
I prefer Warren’s perspective, assuming it to be sincere, to magister’s whack-a-mole of lies, insults, and shifting, inconsistent positions.
Like the distinguished Senator, I would love to have “the largest and most diverse candidate fields,” as well as a *conscientiously and honestly administered* system of ranked choice voting. If RCV can’t be administered properly, the second-best option would be runoffs. In either case, such a system would kill the “ghost parties” (if they weren’t dead already). While of course if any employer interferes with an employee’s exercise of the civic duty of voting, that employer should be severely punished.
I really need to get it through my head that the Volokh comment section is reserved for vicious arguments between Tweedledee and Tweedledum, with no room for discussions outside that dynamic.
Proof by name calling and repeated assertion of lies is not valid logic, but that's how Margrave rolls.
That is a statement predicated on no filing fees, not an assertion that Margrave endorses no filing fees. Still Margrave will not specify what acceptable fees are, just that every fee specified is too much. At some point, a fee will be small enough to be effectively the same as no fee.
Margrave's arguments are indeed often illogical.
I actually link to the source. Margrave never specifies what the filing fees should be.
Very few places have ranked choice voting.
Much of what Margrave calls for would harm third parties and benefit Republicans in their use of dirty tricks. Margrave rages against conclusions drawn from his inconsistent statements, rather than explain his purpose or give specifics.
Given Margrave's inconsistent statements, anything, including contradictory conclusions, can be derived by valid proofs. Margrave's claims have repeatedly been reduced to absurdity in the hopes that he would clean them up, but no good; he either shrugs or makes an illogical argument.
Margrave wants show trials to denounce wrongthink, and hates any politician who doesn't comply. This may explain why he thinks Republicans are better.
Margrave's logic is incorrect. Margrave will specify no limits on who can be a candidate, a position that Warren has not taken. Margrave suggests discriminatory election changes, a position that Warren has not taken.
Some gerrymandering is inevitable; perfectly balanced legislative districts are not possible. Like many of Margrave's suggestions, at large voting is discriminatory, just the kind of thing Republicans love. And yet Margrave can't figure out why an observer might think he's a Republican.
Remember what I said about you projecting your partisan dishonesty onto me? Now you’re doing it again – you’re just making shit up and failing in logic.
I notice you haven’t touched on a key point: that you support the suppression of third parties even if an anti-ghost-candidate remedy – like RCV or runoffs – were adopted. Because to you, restricting third parties is an end in itself, and ghost candidates are simply an excuse.
“Margrave’s arguments are indeed often illogical.”
No, there’s no point trying to emulate your absurdity and contradiction, so I won’t even try.
“That is a statement predicated on no filing fees, not an assertion that Margrave endorses no filing fees.”
Oh, bullshit, you know what you said.
Then you try to throw sand in the reader’s eyes by saying I don’t endorse filing fees in the *right* way, but you previously would have had the reader believe I wanted no filing fees at all.
“Margrave wants show trials to denounce wrongthink, and hates any politician who doesn’t comply.”
I’m trying to figure out what in heck you mean by that fake-ass assertion. All I know is you’re talking out of your ass again; your head must be uncomfortable.
“Margrave will specify no limits on who can be a candidate, a position that Warren has not taken.”
Oh, pull the other one. Of course I specified limits in the form of constitutional age requirements, citizenship, residency, complying with Article 3 of the 14th Amendment (and yes, I mentioned Trump as a possibly-disqualified person and suggested a special Art. 3 court for him and others like him), and of course nondiscriminatory filing fees – a concept which of course you find strange, since many existing filing fees are a kickback to the government of a portion of the salary of the office sought (why should third parties pay such a fee if, as you claim, they’re not going to get the office anyway, and so they’ll have nothing to kick back?). And unlike age, etc., the filing fee is merely about ballot access, it shouldn’t stop anyone from being a write-in candidate.
“Margrave suggests discriminatory election changes, a position that Warren has not taken.”
I can’t be sure, but I think this is based on your false claim that I support Georgia’s runoff scheme and the accompanying employer threats against poor voters, but as I explained (Lord help me, I tried to reason with you), I actually want to protect employees from employer retaliation for their voting, while you laughably mention Georgia’s two-hour unpaid voting break. Even you should be able to see the difference between these two situations.
“Like many of Margrave’s suggestions, at large voting is discriminatory, just the kind of thing Republicans love.”
You’re practicing bait and switch again; at first you said Republicans were into “extreme gerrymandering,” now you say they want at-large voting. Perhaps state lines were drawn up for discriminatory purposes? Again, who knows what you’re babbling about.
(Gerrymandering may or may not be inevitable for state legislatures, but there’s no need for it in Congress.)
etc., etc., it’s hard to keep with your whack-a-mole of false and downright bizarre ideas.
Margrave is a liar who fails at logic. I'm just quoting him.
Not true; that's nothing I ever said or implied. It's a shameless and failed attempt at mindreading.
The only readers are you and me. If by some misfortune someone else actually reads this, they should have quit long before this.
It's only a few hours since you demanded Raskin and Warren's public denunciation of other Democrats. I don't fault cautious Democrats who resist change for fear of unintended consequences, even if I'm disappointed in some of them. Apparently one bad Democrat spoils the whole lot for you, a standard you never apply to the Republicans you prefer.
No, it's based on your call in that very post for at large voting, which is discriminatory.
Margrave suggested at large voting; Republicans know it's illegal federally, and will likely stay so even with the current partisan Supreme Court. Republicans use extreme partisan gerrymandering because that Supreme Court has decided they can, and they can lock in large legislative majorities even when they can't win majorities in state wide races.
You need to take a long look in the mirror. You are unable to process the idea that one person can encompass both good and bad, or that a group can have some people with wrong ideas (for whatever reason) without tainting the entire group. I've presented you evidence that the Democrats are better for some of the election reforms you claim to favor, and you quibble and lie without rebutting the evidence.
Generally, you are unable to see beyond a binary dichotomy in everything, and you lie, and you fail at logic, and you fail at reading comprehension. You need to get over your anger at me, or grow up, or seek professional care, whichever it is that might fix those problems.
I can’t believe you penned this sentence with a straight face:
“Generally, you are unable to see beyond a binary dichotomy in everything, and you lie, and you fail at logic, and you fail at reading comprehension.”
Put down the mirror and address what I actually said – never mind, I may as well ask you to be honest.
“a shameless and failed attempt at mindreading”
I learned about mindreading from the best. Only I base it on logic, not random feelings.
When you say that the only reason for me to support an honest ballot is because I support the Republicans, even I think your pro-Republican tendencies go too far.
It’s hardly a stretch to suppose that the reason you commenced unhinged verbal aggression against me and persist in your lying, is because my calls for an honest ballot hit too close to home. If you agreed with me about the need for an honest ballot, you wouldn’t have ranted and raved against me and babbled about ghost candidates and the rest.
“It’s only a few hours since you demanded Raskin and Warren’s public denunciation of other Democrats.”
I don’t expect them to denounce jack shit. I’m using what you earthlings call sarcasm to point out the, shall we say, limitations of their support for having a diversity of candidates.
Of course they’re not going to denounce “other Democrats,” since those “other Democrats” (as you euphemistically put it) are the *Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee,* which was responsible for the Trumpian challenge to the Greens. Warren won’t bite the hand that feeds her.
“You are unable to process the idea that one person can encompass both good and bad, or that a group can have some people with wrong ideas (for whatever reason) without tainting the entire group.”
You’re lying and mind-reading. And projecting, but this has become normal for you.
Basically, you’re projecting so much it’s too bad the movie theaters are in such financial straits, otherwise you’d have a secure job with them.
You might want to consult a professional about your constant projection, and your spot-on analyses, purportedly about me, which so perfectly describe your own behavior.
You may also want to mention to that same professional about your paranoia about Republicans under every bed.
Or you can simply hire a different kind of professional, someone who dresses up as a Republican and lets you spank her.
Yes, you are from another planet, where apparently logic is unknown.
You're not even trying to make sense, just repeating lies.
"Disqualification laws might be unnecessary if voters could be relied on to reject dangerously illiberal, anti-democratic, incompetent candidates at the polls. But widespread voter ignorance and bias makes exclusive reliance on electoral safeguards problematic. "
Ah yes, the elitist, patrician point of view shows itself once again. I knew I would find it. Oh, those peasants. If only they could be "relied on" to do the right thing! Alas! They are but ignorant rubes.
No disrespect for an otherwise very fine article, but sadly you will find a solid contingent of fellow elitists here on the VC, including many of its contributors. Such patronizing attitudes ought to be anathema to the libertarian point of view, but it is not.
Voters are making judgment calls, not calling balls and strikes or performing tax audits. There is unfortunately very little correlation between being knowledgeable and making good judgments. The list of very smart people who have made exceedingly bad judgment calls extends back to the time before recorded history. And the converse is also true.
To believe in capital-D Democracy, you must trust the voters! Not because they are knowledgeable, but because who else are you going to trust? They're the better choice.
"I would rather be governed by the first 1,000 people listed in the phone book than by the faculty members from an Ivy League University." -- William F. Buckley
Your point being that the Constitution is elitist?
"Section 3 disqualification is justifiable as a democracy-limiting tool to protect democracy."
We must destroy the village to save it.
Or, destroy the village to make way for the new Green future.
“limit the definition of insurrection” is sprinkled throughout. Maybe just limit it via some sort of process like legislation or getting convicted of said behavior. And whats the self execution if someones already elected? And pretending the biggest downside is a ‘just’ insurrection, seems quite specific. Have something in mind? Or is it a defense for suggesting this as a way to disqualify, which can be deemed an insurrection- as you quite clearly spell out that its a worthwhile denial of voters choice. But no worries, definitions will mitigate.
“protect democracy against itself”
Ilya’s transitioned to his selfparody/scary children’s movie villain line phase.
In that general sentiment, he is in very good company among our nations founders, particularly Madison and Hamilton.
omits what seems to be relevant text as Section 3 begins
Does this restrict someone from being President or Vice President? If so, why single out Representatives and Senators and electors but remain silent on the very important office of President? Were the drafters so sloppy that they forgot to include the offices of President and Vice President but were careful enough to include electors?
That’s strange.
At the time, Senators were not necessarily elected by the voters as the state legislatures were responsible for appointing them and they could decide to use a Magic 8 ball if they chose to. Representatives were (I think) always elected but even then they represent the voters of that, and only that, state and don’t reflect a national consensus. Voters didn’t necessary select electors either so legislators had power to engage in skulduggery there. The specific identification of these roles seems consistent with the fear that a state, based on recent history, would have a desire to subvert the Constitution.
This same logic however does not apply to President and Vice President – as they are the product of the actions of many states, not a single, for example, southern state.
If the restriction on “hold[ing] any office, civil or military, under the United States” includes by reference the elected positions of President and VP, it surely must also include Senators and Representatives so why mention the latter and not the former or omit all?
Were the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment prone to sticking in, asymmetrically, surplusage?
Interesting argument. But at the end of the day, I have a very hard time believing that the framers of 14A really didn't mean to disqualify insurrectionists from the office of President or Vice-President. After all, if the framers were so convinced that "the actions of many states" would prevent a subversion of the constitution, then by the same logic a minority of Reps or Senators in Congress couldn't do it either.
Members of Congress are not officers; the Congress authorizes them to select their officers, and they are not subject to impeachment (well established by the time the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified). The second list also distinguishes state legislators from holders of executive or judicial office.
There is precedent that electors are not officers of the United States.
Presidents and Vice Presidents each hold an office, so they are included in the first list. To exclude them from "officer of the United States" in the second list would seem very odd; an officer is someone who holds an office, and our expectation of Presidents and Vice Presidents should undoubtedly be higher than for less important offices.
It is perhaps odd that the first list says Senator or Representative in Congress while the second list says member of Congress, so apparently the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment did like to mix it up a bit.
I will point out that if BadLib is wrong and you are right, any Southerner, including a disqualified one, could be elected to a state legislature.
Taking an oath as a state legislator, then breaking it could still get one disqualified from state executive and judicial offices, but not from being a state legislator again.
"No person shall... hold any office... under any state." vs "...who, as a member [not officer]...or executive or judicial officer..."
I have no opinion on whether state legislators are covered by "any office ... under any State". The first use of office does not specify only executive or judicial; it would seem to cover Speaker of the House, for example, who is explicitly an officer of the House.
This is intriguing. Rare for the modern VC.
It's hard to think that the President and Vice President were implied. I don't think it's clear (even in other constitutional contexts) that the P and VP are "officers." I don't think it helps to say that they "hold an office." I have an office, but I'm not an officer.
Not that rare. Josh Blackman has been posting his and Seth Barret Tillman's papers on the "office under the United States" and "officer of the United States" interpretation forever. Tillman, at least, has been writing about this since long before Trump hove into view,
I believe the gist of their view is that the President is not an "officer of the United States" or an "officer under the United States" and so the insurrection disqualification doesn't apply to people seeking the job of President or VP.
But they acknowledge the possibility that a President, though not an "officer of the United States" might hold an "office under the United States." If so, different folk would be affected differently.
Thus Trump, stipulating insurrection, could not be barred from any office, Presidency or federal dogcatcher, because he has never taken an oath "as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state,"
Whereas Hillary, again stipulating insurrection, having taken an oath as Secretary of State, would be liable to be barred from federal dogcatcher, but not from the Presidency.
And just to add a bit of precedent from one of Tillman’s papers :
For example, in 1888, in United States v. Mouat, the Supreme Court of the United States held that:
“Unless a person in the service of the government, therefore, holds his place by virtue of an appointment by the president, or of one of the courts of justice or heads of departments authorized by law to make such an appointment, he is not strictly speaking, an officer of the United States.”
The Mouat Court clearly identified officer of the United States with appointed positions, not elected ones. Moreover, Mouat is not an outlier decision. In 2010, in Free Enterprise Fund v. Public Company Accounting Oversight Board, the Supreme Court explained:
“[t]he people do not vote for the ‘Officers of the United States.’ Art. II, § 2, cl. 2. They instead look to the President to guide the ‘assistants or deputies . . . subject to his superintendence.’”
If Sec. 3 of the 14th Amd means that Jefferson Davis couldn't run for POTUS, I'm fine with that.
The whole "profoundly anti-democratic" part is exactly the point. It's a feature, not a bug.
Yes. The exact same argument could be made for not disqualifying a candidate for President who was under 35 years old.
Except that you're not going to get cases where half the country thinks somebody is 62, and the other half think he's 26.
That's the problem here, they're trying to pretend a very controversial claim that roughly half the country thinks is nuts is just an objective fact, like somebody's birth date.
Like it's so obvious Trump is guilty that actually charging him with insurrection and letting him have a trial is pointless, that due process is redundant.
"Half the country"... Oh, you wish.
Only 67% of the eligible voters voted in 2020, and Trump got just under 47% of that.
Of course, being part of the "loyal/gullible 31%" doesn't have quite the same impact as claiming to represent "half the country", does it?
Keep pretending. "Largest audience ever to witness an inauguration!" Lol.
Oh, and you think somehow that everybody who didn't vote agreed with the Democrats?
That's possibly why I didn't make such a claim?
I mean, the evidence that Barack Obama was a natural born citizen was objective and beyond overwhelming, but half the country — including you — refused to accept it.
You're hallucinating again. My position from the start was that, while it was theoretically possible that Obama wasn't native born, it was extraordinarily unlikely.
I just thought that the idiots who thought otherwise deserved their day in court, so that they could lose on the merits. I'm not fond of the idea of non-judiciable constitutional clauses.
Brett, that might all be true, but I don't see how it changes anything. The text as ratified clearly doesn't require a conviction. Yes it's a much harder call than determining someone's age, but it's a call the constitution requires those legally designated to decide qualifications to make.
But Jefferson Davis *can* run for President! In 1978, Congress removed his Section 3 disqualification.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-92/pdf/STATUTE-92-Pg1304.pdf#page=1
The restoration of full citizenship rights related back to Christmas 1868 (when Andrew Johnson pardoned Davis and some other Confederates who hadn't benefited from previous pardons).
See also Robert Penn Warren's reflections on this event:
https://www.kentuckypress.com/9780813114453/jefferson-davis-gets-his-citizenship-back/
Jefferson Davis is still ineligible to serve as President. Article II, Section 1, Clause 8 of the Constitution requires the swearing of an oath of office before entering on the Execution of Office. Mr. Davis, being dead, is unable to do that.
Nice! Although in the Margrave's defense, he just claimed that Davis could run for President, no claims about the ability to serve.
Pure speculation, he can still be elected.
And they can always run a Weekend at Bernie’s operation, doing stuff like oath-taking on his behalf.
And Justice Gorsuch wouldn’t like your loosey-goosey contextual interpretation of the constitution. The Constitution merely says the President, before entering on the execution of his office, must “take” an oath or affirmation. Nothing about using his vocal cords, that’s just your interpolating stuff into the text of the constitution. Write down the oath or affirmation and stuff it into his skull. Close enough for government work.
And if we are to do a contextual interpretation, let's look at the definition of "take" in Samuel Johnson's dictionary:
1. To receive what is offered....
3. To receive....
5. To lay hold on; to catch by surprize or artifice....
And really, what could be more surprizing than the scenario of Jeff Davis taking the oath of office in his condition?
QED
Trump was already acquitted for insurrection in Feb. 2021.
Any attempt to hand wave an insurrection charge is a violation of due process.
Impeachment does not preclude prosecution otherwise.
Yes, but rrgg is talking about a parallel universe where Trumpian jurisprudence rules.
That's true, they could always actually prosecute him for insurrection, and settle the matter. Why don't they?
Either because they think he'd end up acquitted again, or because they're gaming the timing to make sure there isn't enough time for the Supreme court to overturn the conviction in time to matter, I suppose.
Obviously it's not because they think he isn't guilty, right?
Criminal convictions require a much higher standard of proof, as you well know. A civil suit only requires a preponderance of the evidence, although there can still be consequences. It's also why anyone can call Trump a "rapist", but not a "convicted rapist".
Yes, I'm aware. I'm with Nameless below on this: If you're going to tell the voters that their opinion doesn't matter, you can damned well prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt. There's just a huge gulf, philosophically, between the extremity of the action they're demanding, and the scale of the proof they want to claim is sufficient.
Reminder that you are going to vote for the guy who wanted to disenfranchise everyone who voted for the winning candidate in 2020.
Since when does your favored candidate losing an election mean you were disenfranchised?
You know, if they'd charged him with insurrection and convicted him, I might have some doubts about a Republican being able to get a fair jury trial in DC at this point, but I'd gladly admit they'd ticked all the procedural boxes. I honestly wouldn't mind if Trump weren't on the ballot, I think he's too old for the office at this point, and is showing a distinct decline in his mental flexibility, even if I don't think he was trying to overthrow the government that day.
The problem here is, get away with doing this with such a scant measure of due process, and this isn't going to be a one off. It's going to be a looming threat in every election going forward.
And I am damned well going to demand that the GOP, if they're in a position to, return the favor in regards to every Democrats who was as connected to Antifa as Trump was to the Proud Boys.
'Since when does your favored candidate losing an election mean you were disenfranchised?'
Ask Trump and his election-denying supporters, most particulalry the Jan 6th mob. They might have the answers you seek.
'And I am damned well going to demand that the GOP, if they’re in a position to, return the favor in regards to every Democrats who was as connected to Antifa as Trump was to the Proud Boys.'
Jan 6th and the Big Lie redux. Authoritarians voting for an authoritarian.
Oh, but it isn't "my case"; it is the drafters and ratifiers of the 14th Amendment (as helpfully interpreted by the Supreme Court) who have evidently seen fit to bar certain insurrectionists and others from holding certain offices within the United States government. Our task is simply to understand what the Constitution requires.
(I am not being facetious, by the way, as you would know if you have seen anything I have written regarding the 2nd Amendment.
I'm also not (yet) convinced by the arguments in favour of using the 14th Amendment to "stop Trump", but I can see bad arguments in opposition, so I call them out.)
If the 14th Amendment actually meant "convicted by a court of law for the felony of insurrection under applicable federal law", then so be it--Trump would not be affected by this provision and any attempts to prevent him from appearing on the ballot or taking office would be struck down in due course. But I doubt that's what its authors or ratifiers intended, or they probably would have written it differently. SCOTUS will have the last word, I'm sure.
What it's authors intended was to crush their enemies, see them driven before them, and listen to the lamentations of their women.
Don't over-think too much what was going on back then. Congress refused to seat the Confederates BEFORE the 14th amendment. The first civil rights act was enacted BEFORE the 14th amendment. The 14th amendment wasn't intended to do anything but legally regularize what had up until then been an exercise of raw power. And pretty nominally regularize, it was ratified at gun point in the Confederacy, literally soldiers in legislative chambers telling legislators to vote for it or else.
So, yeah, it's kind of missing any annoying procedural safeguards, deliberately, because they didn't want the courts observing that such safeguards hadn't been observed, they just wanted to get their way, period.
And that's fine in it's way, as I've said, the winner does as he wills, the loser endures what he must, that's how it goes in war, and the war wasn't really over yet at that point.
But it's damned well over by THIS point, and words can scarce express how stupidly dangerous it is for Trump's foes to try to act like the Radical Republicans did right after the Civil war, when they conspicuously HAVEN'T just one a war, and beaten everybody on the other side into submission.
Scarcely anyone has been discussing the degree of certitude that is appropriate for disqualification. I submit it ought to be ‘beyond reasonable doubt’, both as to law and as to fact.
Long ago, standards of proof were not something ever posited by any authority, but rather a recognition that some errors are worse than others. A juror who convicts someone declares that the defendant is, in fact, guilty, and the juror who acquits declares that someone is, in fact, not guilty. And he has to pick one of the two - such is judgment.
Where a person who is actually innocent faces harsh punishment, an awful error transpires. The reverse error doesn't raise nearly the same concern. We could never hope to catch every criminal if we tried. Given that the criminal law exists primarily to deter, it is generally sufficient to create the credible threat of punishment. To both people and jurists, one error is plainly more acceptable than the other. Hence, despite being less relativistic than we are today, judges of past centuries openly instructed jurors to acquit if they had any real doubt. It was simply how the juror ought to do his job.
Some have claimed that BRD is only used in a criminal context, but it is also the standard widely applied by courts before they will treat a statute as unconstitutional. Even if current usage were limited to the criminal context ‘til now, it doesn't make it incorrect in this situation.
Ultimately, who has an interest in eligibility? As with criminal defendants' interest in avoiding false conviction, the candidate has an interest in avoiding false exclusion. But what about everyone else?
Society has a conscientious/character-preserving basis for not convicting the innocent, but hardly suffers the harm the convict does. On the other hand, society has a direct interest in controlling elected offices – that’s what elections are for! The office is the People’s property, which they “own” even more than the electee does.
In general, quo warranto has used a standard of ‘clear and convincing evidence’, just like the other prerogative writs. But such provisions tend to most often fall on appointed (and lesser) officers who were given the position by politicians. To hold ineligible the winner of a national election, without the intervention of any jury, is an act of a gravity the country has hardly ever encountered. If the law actually disqualifies a president-elect, adjudicators could be easily forgiven for wrongly admitting him. If the law does not disqualify, and adjudicators wrongly exclude, the injustice would be monstrous.
"Given that the criminal law exists primarily to deter..."
That is one view. OTOH, it is criminal law that prevents flash mob looters from experiencing immediate just deserts at the hands of their victims.
It is, of course, not.
It is, rather, Dunning-Kruger in action...
49 out of 50 states doesn't amount to "widely"?
And Cardozo, Brandeis, and Frankfurter are just a few of those on SCOTUS who have used such language.
The Amendment itself refers to this as a "disability", not a punishment of any kind. It also empowers Congress to remove said disability by a 2/3 vote in both Houses. And not a word about removing a criminal conviction...
I think you're missing the point of the comment.
I didn't say section 3 involves punishment. I didn't say someone needs a criminal conviction to be disqualified.
I'm simply saying that the appropriate standard for disqualification should be very high, because of the gravity of being wrong in this case.
Since Trump's engagement in the insurrection is beyond a reasonable doubt, it's not clear how your whinging is at all relevant to the instant case.
Since you think Trump's guilt is beyond a reasonable doubt, it's not clear why you'd object to that standard being applied.
Since you asked, I don’t think the 14A applies to Trump for two other reasons before you even get to the appropriate standard.
First, it doesn’t seem to apply to the President by its terms.
Second, although Jan 6 was certainly an insurrection by the dictionary definition, I don’t think it rises to the level of “insurrection or rebellion” contemplated by 14A. Literal definitions of words aren’t always the best interpretations of constitutional clauses or amendments.
Six Colorado voters (four Republicans and two unaffiliated) have sued Donald Trump and the Colorado Secretary of State in state court in Denver for a declaration that Trump is unable to appear on the 2024 Republican primary or general election ballots in Colorado. https://www.citizensforethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/2023-09-06-08-43-07-Anderson-v-Griswold-Verified-Petition-2023.09.06.pdf
Trump's chickens are coming home to roost.
“Justifiable as a democracy-limiting tool to protect democracy.”
Read that sentence again and listen to what it says. Listen to what Trump has turned you into.
And ask yourself - is there maybe more than one threat to democracy at work here?
There is, however, one genuine serious downside of applying Section 3: Some insurrections are actually morally defensible.
Violent resistance of government becomes morally defensible when the rule of law has broken down. As long as there are constitutionally protected political and legal remedies to government abuse, there is no moral justification for violence. People might feel morally justified, and we might even agree that they are completely justified in their anger and resentment. But to use violence when other options are still available cannot be acceptable, any more than it is on a more personal level. (Your neighbor is messing up your lawn, so you go beat the crap of him when you could still hire a lawyer and sue him. Sorry, but that person faces the consequences of going to jail no matter how justified he felt.)
I both sympathized and agreed with the anger and resentment the black community in LA felt after the officers that beat Rodney King were acquitted of all criminal charges. But every single individual that acted violently after that during those riots was absolutely wrong and deserved the full weight of the law to be brought down on them.
Also remember that Section 3 only applies to people that had previously taken an oath to protect and defend the Constitution. Those people, more than people that had not served the public after taking such an oath, need to understand that their oath means something. It means that they will follow the law and the Constitution themselves under all circumstances, even when others won’t. Like I said, I would say that any reasonable definition of insurrection that includes committing or inciting or acting in a way that recklessly disregarded the likelihood of violence (which then did occur), is not justifiable by someone once bound by such an oath short of the whole Constitution being a dead letter.
I doubt that when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted in 1868, the drafters were overly concerned that those who rebelled rather than accept the result of the 1860 election may have believed that treason in service of chattel slavery was morally justified.
People didn't rebel because they rejected the results of the 1860 election. You should have stayed in elementary school.
What do you posit as the ostensible cause of the attempt to secede?
They seceded, (Not "rebelled".) because they could see the writing on the wall: Slavery wasn't going to expand as the country did, and eventually the slave states would be a small enough fraction of the country that it would be politically viable to take federal action against slavery.
They thought they'd get out before that happened.
So, yeah, the results of the 1860 election weren't irrelevant, but it wasn't just about that election. It was about the general trend.
They seceded, (Not “rebelled”.)
Secession had not legal basis, thus it was a rebellion. There is no successful way to argue that states retained full sovereignty to unilaterally leave the United States. Even the Articles of Confederation called the United States a “perpetual union”. The Constitution makes it very clear that it and federal law and ratified treaties would be the supreme law of the land. The United States had eminent domain over all of its territory. I don’t know if it has ever become a case, but which do you think would win if both the federal government and a state government claimed eminent domain over the same land? If the Constitution didn’t provide any mechanism for a state to secede, then it wasn’t possible without the consent of other states.
I have seen plenty say that the war itself is what settled the question of whether a state could secede on its own, but I’ve never seen a legal argument that holds up to scrutiny considering only facts as they were in 1860.
Slavery wasn’t going to expand as the country did, and eventually the slave states would be a small enough fraction of the country that it would be politically viable to take federal action against slavery.
Slavery wasn’t going to expand once there was a President strongly opposed to the expansion of slavery in office that could and would veto any legislation that slave states wanted that managed to pass Congress without a veto-proof majority. And a President that would sign legislation slave states opposed that managed to pass Congress. It wasn’t just about the general trend, it was about Lincoln specifically as well.
"Secession had not legal basis, thus it was a rebellion."
A lot of people thought it had a legal basis, (I myself find the 10th amendment argument persuasive.) and made arguments to that effect, and they weren't all Confederates. Killing people who advance an argument may get people to STFU so long as they think you're still inclined to kill them if they don't, but it doesn't refute anything.
Their secession was undone by an exercise of raw military power, not refuted.
"Slavery wasn’t going to expand once there was a President strongly opposed to the expansion of slavery in office that could and would veto any legislation that slave states wanted that managed to pass Congress without a veto-proof majority. "
Slavery wasn't expanding anyway; It wasn't economically viable outside the South's plantation system. Even where it was technically legal outside the South, it wasn't practiced all that much, and so had little political support.
"It wasn’t just about the general trend, it was about Lincoln specifically as well."
I don't think we're in disagreement about that. It was both, was my point, not JUST Lincoln.
A lot of people thought it had a legal basis, (I myself find the 10th amendment argument persuasive.) and made arguments to that effect, and they weren’t all Confederates.
You might try addressing some of the things I mentioned before jumping into your own arguments that you find so persuasive. After you have done that, then you can explain why you find it persuasive to argue that the ability to split from the United States unilaterally is a power reserved to each state or the people of that state.
Their secession was undone by an exercise of raw military power, not refuted.
I've already said that I've seen people make this argument before. And I still don't see how it relieves the burden of those that maintain that secession has a legal basis from putting forth their case in a persuasive way. After all, every alleged criminal act can only be undone (or punished if undoing it is not possible) through an exercise of force by government. And it is "raw force" if the accused resists the government's authority to judge them. Perhaps there would not have been a war if the Confederate states had submitted the question to a legal process and not tried to use their own force to make it fact.
Slavery wasn’t expanding anyway...
Then why secede once Lincoln won if it wouldn't have mattered?
It was both, was my point, not JUST Lincoln.
Well, if you're quibbling over whether Lincoln's defeat of Douglass was 100% of the reason for southern states to secede, then I don't even see much point in arguing at all. Lincoln was presented as a radical to Southern pro-slavery whites. His election was an existential threat to them, as they saw it. There is no doubt that SC in particular met and declared its secession as soon as the results of the election were known.
"you can explain why you find it persuasive to argue that the ability to split from the United States unilaterally is a power reserved to each state or the people of that state."
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."; Where does the Constitution delegate the power of secession to the United States by way of the Constitution, or prohibit it to the states? Nowhere, that's where.
"Then why secede once Lincoln won if it wouldn’t have mattered?"
You know, I already answered that: Slavery wasn't expanding, but the country was. The numerator wasn't growing, but the denominator was. Everybody could see that eventually non-slave states would dominate to the point that you could have gotten something like the 13th amendment without having to have soldiers in legislative chambers threatening to shoot anyone who cast the wrong vote.
Lincoln's election was more the straw that broke the camel's back, than a sole cause.
I have no sympathy for the Confederacy; I think they were legally entitled to secede, but that they seceded for about the worst reasons possible to imagine.
But I don't have a much better opinion of Lincoln. He didn't start the most brutal war in American history to end slavery. The guy actually supported the Corwin amendment, remember, and ran on a platform saying that the federal government had no authority over slavery. And who can forget this letter he wrote in 1862?
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."
The war was about proving the US was a roach motel, nothing more admirable than that.
You might try addressing some of the things I mentioned before jumping into your own arguments that you find so persuasive. After you have done that, then...
Cutting this out of what what I said when you quote it isn't going to make me forget that I wrote it. Respond to what I'm saying, or I'm not going to bother with what you're saying.
What should be repulsive to the rule of law (but isn't) is the unequal treatment under the law of disfavored parties.
Stacy Abrams and Hillary Clinton did and said things that were substantially the same as Trump (indeed, that is probably where he got the idea) ... but not one cares.
The law is not longer a rule onto itself, but rather a cudgel with which to beat others into submission.
Like what?
Yes, who can ever forget Hillary’s plot to create fake electors. And her speech encouraging her followers to fight like hell and march to the Capitol was inspirational! And does anyone recall how many of her gang sacrificed themselves for the team by getting prison sentences? And, finally, she's probably still embarrassed when people continue to compare her pathetic concession speech to Trump's oratorical masterpiece when he graciously conceded to Biden.
Conceding an election that you subsequently term illegitimate because of some inane Russian fantasy-plot isn't really conceding an election. Downright insurrectiony if one's supporters are myopic enough.
In any case, if you're dumb enough to spend 4 years announcing yourself as "The Resistance" and not somewhat concerned about "democracy-limiting tools to protect democracy," I hope you live a very long time.
John Podesta called for an intelligence briefing for the electors.
The Cunt®™ paid for the Steele dossier and his the source of the funding.
Kevin Clinesmith lied on a warrant application against Carter Page.
I think the difference between Hillary Clinton post-2016 and Donald Trump post-2020 is that Hillary Clinton didn't submit a slate of fake "electors" in states that she knew she had lost in order to get the Vice President to not count the lawful electors from those states which went for her opponent. A lot of other things that Trump is alleged to have done was pretty close to the line but this action would pretty clearly be crossing it IMO.
“Stacy Abrams and Hillary Clinton did and said things that were substantially the same as Trump (indeed, that is probably where he got the idea) … but not one cares.”
Tu quoque now!
Tu quoque tomorrow!!
Tu quoque FO’EVAH!!!
"There is, however, one genuine serious downside of applying Section 3: Some insurrections are actually morally defensible."
This is basically the same question as whether it should be legal to resist an unlawful arrest. A lot of ink has been spilled over the years, and different places have tried different things. In the end there's no easy answer but on the balance we've found that it's best to forbid violent resistance in all but the most egregious circumstances and rely on civil and political process, capricious as they are, to settle the matter later. Otherwise the price of deciding is dead cops, mostly innocent, which no serious person wants. Better to make the risk of using violence high and the justifications narrow, or people will resort to it lightly.
Of course, if your insurrection is successful, then what the 14th Amendment says will become irrelevant, because it will be summarily removed/re-written as necessary by the victors.
The constitutional drafting takeaway here is to make the consequences severe and not worry about half-measures.
That’s what is really stupid about thinking of this as an insurrection: there is no suggestion that anyone planned to throw out the Constitution, or disband the Congress, or make the Justices go home. Trump thought (probably still thinks) that the reason he appeared to have lost in several states was shenanigans by the Democrats. He wanted someone to step in and agree that he should be President instead of Biden and cause that to happen. I don’t agree with him; there may have been shenanigans, but the time to address that in court or through recounts or audits was over sometime in early December. After that, no matter what he thought of the quality of the election, he should have accepted that the result was final. He didn’t. He kept whining about it at every opportunity including on January 6th. Meh!
Throwing out the Constitution, check!
Kill Mike Pence!
Disbanding (or murdering) Congress, check!
Make the Justices go home (or simply ignore them), check!
“Justifiable as a democracy-limiting tool to protect democracy.”
It’s a sobering phrase that requires deep reflection and consideration. Anyone who votes for Trump is rejecting democracy by default, and will never accept any efforts to protect democracy that might impede or limit him. Anyone with respect for the law will accept that if it is the law, and since it is a democratic law designed to set basic standards for candidates – like age and citizenship – then to exercise the law is no threat to democracy. Everyone else will dither, perhaps because they will be persuaded by the same people who are rejecting democracy that this is a threat to democracy. Here’s that eternal vigilance you keep trying to forget about.
So you’ve finally descended into “We must destroy the democracy in order to save it!” parody.
Look, if it’s that important, it’s important enough to actually charge him with the damned crime, and have a trial. Enough with this, “He’s obviously guilty, and it’s vitally important he never be President again no matter what the voters think, but we just can’t be bothered to hold a trial.” crap.
Charge him or drop it. If it’s so bloody important, act like you think it is.
They’re acting like they’re afraid that if he got a trial, he’d be acquitted. And that the objective isn’t to keep a guilty Trump out of office, but just to keep Trump out of office, regardless of whether or not he’s guilty.
Charge him, try him, or just drop it. Enough "Trial? We don't need no stinking trial!" garbage.
'We must destroy the democracy in order to save it!'
Isn't that the rationale behind voting for Trump?
No. Nobody's "destroying democracy" by voting.
Now, deciding the voters can't have their choice, that's a genuine case of destroying democracy.
Of course you are, if you’re voting for someone who wanted to destroy democracy and has shown no inclination that he’s changed in that regard. It's clearly either what you want, or what you don't care enough about to not vote for him.
That sounds to me like saying any attempt to vote for someone outside of the established ruling class is in and of itself an attempt to destroy democracy.
I hope the logic you tortured brings you up for war crimes.
Sorry, but this is a discussion about a Constitutional question, not the usual blag fest about whether someone wants to "stop Trump" or not.
Obviously, it would be better if we had a "smoking tape" of Trump stating clearly that he was demanding his minions to find a way to keep him in office despite losing the election, but we haven't seen that kind of evidence (yet). We may soon learn from his co-defendants more about what Trump was actually thinking and saying at the time, which may provide sufficient proof for a criminal conviction. (That could then be used to put him in prison "for real", and not just bar him from office.)
But this is just about what the 14th Amendment means, and whether it applies in this instance to "disable" him from being President again.
Ilya's finally gone full totalitarian.
I mean...this logic....
"Disqualifying those who participate in rebellions fighting for a just cause is problematic. But it may be the price we have to pay for Section 3's failure to distinguish between just and unjust rebellions against authority. Some number of unjust disqualifications may need to be accepted in order to reduce the greater menace of allowing would-be authoritarians access to the most powerful office in the land."
That's not the problem. The problem is the authoritarians who have power already using this type of tactic to eliminate their political opponents. Because that is exactly what they do. In Venezuela. In Russia. Etc.
What's Trump ACTUALLY done? He's not actually charged...let alone convicted...of insurrection. His supporters engaged in some rowdy behavior, which changed absolutely nothing. And critically, when it came time for him to leave office...he left. That's not exactly an authoritarian type of action...leaving office.
Now imagine if Trump wins the 2024 election but Biden and a few confederates says "uh uh, you're disqualified, so you don't win, I win." THAT'S authoritarian and anti-democratic as hell, and leads us down the authoritarian route.
You may not like Trump, and that's fine. But if you truly support Democracy, you need to support Democracy. Throwing it away because you don't like Trump means you're no better than those who would support the other Authoritarians in Russia or Venezuala.
You're spinning down the same path as Prof. Somin here. The issue at hand is not whether it's a "good idea" to disqualify Trump from being President again; it is whether the Constitution prevents him from becoming President again.
Yes or no?
Now imagine if Trump wins the 2024 election but Biden and a few confederates says “uh uh, you’re disqualified, so you don’t win, I win.” THAT’S authoritarian and anti-democratic as hell, and leads us down the authoritarian route.
Now imagine if Biden wins the 2020 election, but Trump and a few confederates say, "uh uh, you didn't really win. Because there was fraud, I win."
Glad you agree that what Trump did was authoritarian and anti-democratic as hell, and would lead us down the authoritarian route.
If an insurrection comes to be seen as morally defensible, Congress can remove the Section 3 disability from the guilty parties.
"Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason? For if it doth prosper, none dare call it treason."
That's how you identify justifiable insurrections: In retrospect, by their success. No government that prevails ever admits a revolt against itself was justified.
That’s how you identify justifiable insurrections: In retrospect, by their success.
So, Castro was justified because he won?
According to the legal system in Cuba, yeah. Which was my point.
No, you said, "That's how you identify justifiable insurrections: In retrospect, by their success." [emphasis mine] You did not say that the successful insurrectionists/rebels would identify themselves as having been justified.
I appreciate the argument you make, Professor. In full disclosure, I am no fan of the former President. However, the "slippery-slope concerns" over disqualification absent overwhelming evidence resulting in conviction of insurrection or rebellion should give us great pause. I shudder to think where that action might lead.
Should give us "great pause" in doing what, exactly?
This isn't a popularity contest, in which everyone gets to vote on what they really, really want the 14th Amendment to mean. Either it bars Trump (and anyone else who has done what he has) from office or it doesn't. So if a faithful application of the Constitution prompts certain people to do certain things, they're simply "enemies domestic" and the full force of the law should be--and I believe will be--used to stop them.
The 2nd Amendment is also "highly problematic" for example, but that fact does not support any legitimate argument to wilfully fail to understand what it means and what it requires. If the current voting citizenry doesn't like those things, they can change the law using the appropriate mechanisms provided in the Constitution. The same goes for the 14th Amendment.
As I wrote - "absent overwhelming evidence resulting in conviction of insurrection or rebellion" - we should all take a deep breath. The former president has been charged with crimes - not convicted - is presumed innocent - and the burden to prove otherwise is on the government. I trust we can all agree on those basic truths.
Issues I see going forward: neither insurrection nor rebellion are explicitly defined in US Code; the First Amendment - that pesky thing - and the rights therein; proving intent - and that's a high bar to clear.
Should the former president be convicted, then the landscape changes and I would argue a 14th amendment disqualification becomes applicable. But until that time, he's presumed innocent of all charges - and the only popularity contest is being waged with premature efforts to remove him from ballots.
On a personal note - I'd like to see him on the ballot and get his ass kicked - again.
Anyone else finding this page glitchy? I'm replying to people and nothing appears - but then it's saying I've made duplicate comments.
I know that logic never carries the day. But let's look at term limits.
Isn't that just a vote about another vote? If you are for term limits and you voted for Feinstein or Pelosi or McConnell -- or even Fetterman --what are you voting for?
How can anyone who sees some value in term limits also vote for the crop of fossils we now have? lazy, stupid Biden..can't speak, can't think...even when he actually hears himself says somethlng stupid it doesn't register. "two words, made in America" --- That is a fool if it is anything.